The Boston Cinematic Universe

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Speaker 1 Hi, it's Willa, and this episode is a first for Decodering. It's a live show.

Speaker 10 At the end of May, we were invited to be part of the WBUR Festival in Boston. WBUR is one of Boston's public radio stations, and it's celebrating its 75th anniversary.

Speaker 12 We thought it'd be fun to take the opportunity to explore a Boston-specific mystery.

Speaker 1 The result of which is this episode about Boston movies.

Speaker 15 Warning that many of these movies contain a a ton of cursing, some of which you will be hearing very shortly.

Speaker 9 In other words, this episode contains explicit language.

Speaker 18 So please enjoy.

Speaker 12 Here's Decodering live from the WBUR Festival in beautiful Boston, Massachusetts.

Speaker 5 Hi, thank you so much for being here on this sunny, rainy day.

Speaker 14 So Decodering's whole thing is that we crack cultural mysteries. We take a cultural question, habit, or idea, try to figure out what it means and why it matters.

Speaker 24 And given that we are here in Boston, we would thought we would take on a specifically Boston-based mystery, which is we thought we would take on the mystery of the Boston movie.

Speaker 14 So when I say a Boston movie, I don't mean a movie that just happens to be set in Boston, a movie that could just as easily be set in New York or Chicago or Toronto.

Speaker 26 I'm talking about a movie drenched in Boston's particularities, its crimes, its cops, its class conflicts, its accents.

Speaker 27 Where are the cops gonna learn?

Speaker 30 Mr. Fucking Clean, Mr.

Speaker 31 Fucking Goddamn Hide and Mighty, right?

Speaker 16 I'm better than Mr. Clean as fuck.
You grew up right here.

Speaker 33 I grew up with him in Southeast.

Speaker 31 So there are a lot of Boston movies.

Speaker 19 Mystic River, The Departed, Gone Baby Gone, The Town, The Fighter, Black Mass, and more besides.

Speaker 14 They often feature an actor with the surname Damon, Affleck, or Wahlberg.

Speaker 19 There are two Afflecks, there are more Wahlbergs, and they have become such a staple that they may not seem strange to you.

Speaker 38 But I want you to give me a minute to rewild this kind of movie and to point out that it is, in fact, kind of weird that Boston has a cinematic subgenre all its own.

Speaker 23 And I want to start to make it weird by looking at the whole latter half of the 20th century, during which period Boston appeared in a totally unremarkable number of films.

Speaker 16 Don't get me wrong, there were movies set in Boston.

Speaker 22 In the 70s and 80s, you had, among others, the Capered, The Brinks Job, the Paul Newman courtroom drama, The Verdict, the Sexy Artheist film, The Thomas Crown Affair, and The Love Story, Love Story.

Speaker 16 Jenny,

Speaker 16 I'm sorry.

Speaker 6 Love means never having to say you're sorry.

Speaker 22 What a weird movie.

Speaker 34 Anyway, okay, so this was a respectable number of films, but it was not a notably robust one.

Speaker 15 And with the possible exception of the crime drama The Friends of Eddie Coyle, a movie that film critics in particular love to mention, they're all pretty far from the Boston movie tropes of today.

Speaker 14 These movies aren't dripping in misdeeds, the working class, or even accents.

Speaker 34 When Paul Newman played a Boston lawyer in the verdict, he did not drop a single R.

Speaker 20 When they remade the Thomas Crown Affair, Boston was so incidental, they just changed the setting to New York.

Speaker 14 So this was the first era of Boston movies.

Speaker 26 It was pretty indistinct.

Speaker 22 But then, just before the end of the new millennium, a new era arrived.

Speaker 42 I want a way out of here for him and I'm going to fucking live here the rest of my life. Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way.

Speaker 42 In 20 years, if you're still living here, coming over to my house to watch the Patriots scheme, you're still working construction, I'll fucking kill you.

Speaker 14 So when Goodwill Hunting was released in 1997, it not only turned Matt Damon and Ben Affleck into cinematic stars, it turned Boston into one too.

Speaker 14 Now, Goodwill Hunting is not a a crime movie, but a charismatic working-class guy from South Boston was its title character, its hero.

Speaker 2 And in the wake of its success came a spate of smaller movies that also highlighted the city's untapped potential for grit.

Speaker 5 Monument Avenue, Southey, Boondock Saints.

Speaker 29 And if you'll permit me now to take a glance over at TV, this is when the producer David E.

Speaker 14 Kelly, the creator of the Boston-based series Allie McBeal and the practice, started putting the word Boston into the titles of his TV shows.

Speaker 9 This is when you get Boston legal and Boston public.

Speaker 23 Boston had cachet.

Speaker 20 Soon, Clint Eastwood was optioning Boston crime novelists.

Speaker 34 Martin Scorsese was setting his remake of a Hong Kong thriller in Boston, and the city's native movie star sons seemed singularly focused on making as many films as they could here.

Speaker 37 Films that were, as I suggested previously, disproportionately now about crimes.

Speaker 32 370 bank robberies in Boston last year. It's more per capita than anywhere else in the world.

Speaker 17 I just mule.

Speaker 25 Occasionally, not making a habit out of here.

Speaker 17 Lionel, what does that mean?

Speaker 43 Means she's a drug runner, B.

Speaker 32 Means she carries drugs.

Speaker 16 Isn't that right, Helene?

Speaker 25 Oh my god, a few times.

Speaker 15 I don't want to overstate things.

Speaker 14 There absolutely have been very Boston movies in this era that are not crime movies.

Speaker 13 Romantic comedies about the Red Sox, less romantic comedies about a giant foulmouth teddy bear, an Oscar-winning drama about investigative reporting into the the Catholic Church.

Speaker 15 But these films goose and boost the overall effect.

Speaker 14 Boston is all over the movies.

Speaker 27 And respectfully, as I stand here in your fair city, Boston is not that big.

Speaker 13 Population-wise, El Paso is bigger.

Speaker 20 So are Jacksonville, San Jose, and San Antonio.

Speaker 5 Even when you're taking into account the larger metropolitan area of Boston, Phoenix and Houston are much larger still.

Speaker 23 And these cities aren't the setting of many particularly memorable films.

Speaker 25 So, how did Boston come to be home to a subgenre all its own?

Speaker 14 So, this is Decodering live from WBR City Space in Boston.

Speaker 24 I'm Willa Paskin.

Speaker 20 In this episode, with the help of three guests, we're going to look closely at the history, heyday, and present of the Boston movie.

Speaker 14 We're going to talk about how race, ethnicity, and class have enabled its persistence just as much as Bafflek and Bulger and all those accents.

Speaker 19 So today, I'm decodering.

Speaker 26 What makes a Boston movie a Boston movie?

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Speaker 28 The first guest we invited onto the stage at the WBUR Festival to help us make sense of the Boston movie was Ty Burr.

Speaker 10 Ty is a movie critic who's been writing and thinking about films for over 40 years.

Speaker 21 He currently writes and thinks about movies at Ty Burr's watch list and for the Washington Post.

Speaker 10 And he worked for decades at the Boston Globe.

Speaker 25 He is also a lifelong Bostonian by way of Brookline.

Speaker 25 Thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 4 Thank you for having me.

Speaker 8 So I wanted to start by looking a little more closely at the earlier era of movies I was speaking of because I think it will help highlight what's changed.

Speaker 14 And one of the reasons that there were not more Boston movies before Goodwill Hunting is because Boston was sort of a notoriously difficult place to shoot.

Speaker 23 And I was hoping you could tell me why.

Speaker 46 Yeah,

Speaker 4 it was a terrible place to come and make films for a variety of reasons. The weather, I mean, Hollywood is invented because people wanted to get away from the East Coast weather.

Speaker 4 But it's not just that. The unions were particularly, notably bad in this town.
And I'm talking about specifically the Teamsters,

Speaker 4 would shake down any film crew that would come to town.

Speaker 4 And there's a story that I told you earlier about the Brinks job story. It's one of my favorite stories of Boston filmmaking.

Speaker 4 And it really sums up the attitude of the Boston public toward movie makers.

Speaker 4 So when William Friedkin was shooting the Brinks job here in the early 70s in the North End, which is about the Brinks robbery in the 1940s, he was shooting a a scene on a North End Street, and he noticed there was an air conditioner in one of the windows.

Speaker 4 And the film's set in the 40s, and can't have an air conditioner. So he sends a production assistant and says, Here, here's $200.

Speaker 4 Go give those people some money and tell them to take the AC out of their window. And they did.
And the next day, the crew comes back to shoot some more, and every window has an air conditioner in it.

Speaker 4 And that is Boston. That is absolutely Boston's attitude toward, yeah, okay, fine, give us the money.
We'll take out our air conditioners.

Speaker 4 But there really wasn't a reason to film in Boston until Goodwill Hunting came along. And there was a lot of reasons not to film in Boston.

Speaker 14 Trevor Burrus, Jr.: And those movies that serve earlier period of the Boston movie, like insofar as they are quintessentially Boston in any way, like my sense is it's sort of about blue-bloodedness.

Speaker 4 Yes, yes. I mean,

Speaker 4 you mentioned all those other cities that are bigger than us.

Speaker 4 They don't have the history and the place in the history books and the institutionalism that Boston has and the roots that go back to the Mayflower, et cetera.

Speaker 4 And that has a purchase in the American imagination.

Speaker 4 And that sort of dominated the popular idea of Boston really up until recent decades. Boston was certainly not about its working class, wasn't about its Irish population,

Speaker 4 it wasn't about South Boston, it was about Beacon Hill, it was about Harvard. You know, that's why you have,

Speaker 4 even though Love Story was not filmed in Harvard, it's said at Harvard. In fact, Harvard never allows any filming.

Speaker 4 So all those movies that are said at Harvard are all shot at like UCLA with a couple of Cambridge exteriors.

Speaker 21 Hey, I'm having coffee with a real Harvard building. You're Barrett Hall.

Speaker 16 No, I'm not Barrett Hall.

Speaker 47 My great-grandfather just happened to give the thing to Harvard. So his not-so-great-grandson would be able to get in.

Speaker 14 There was this one movie from 1973 called The Friends of Eddie Coyle that honestly, Robert Mitchum stars in it.

Speaker 19 It's not like a nothing movie, but you really only encounter when you're talking to people about like, where do these Boston movies come from?

Speaker 27 And everyone's like, have you you seen have you ever heard about the friends of Eddie Coyle

Speaker 34 is Eddie Coyle the Friends of Eddie Coyle is based on a novel by George V.

Speaker 8 Higgin like a crime novel but can you just tell me about that film because it's sort of like the ancestor of these movies.

Speaker 4 Yes, it is. And it would not exist without George V.
Higgins, who was the antecedent to Dennis Lahane, and who Dennis Lahane goes out of his way to name-check as much as possible. George V.

Speaker 4 Higgins was a Boston lawyer who turned to novel writing. Friends of Eddie Hoyle was his first novel, but he was very prolific until his early death.
You should read his stuff.

Speaker 4 But Friends of Eddie Coyle was the only one that was turned into a movie while he was alive.

Speaker 4 And it's an antecedent to the Boston wave of movies that we got after Goodwill Hunting in that it's the first one to really address not just Beacon Hill, but every place else in Boston.

Speaker 4 And in fact, if you read any of Higgins' novels, they travel all over Boston and are very geographically neighborhood specific. So he really knew this city deep, deep, deep in its bones.

Speaker 4 And that comes across in its books, but also in the Friends of Eddie Coyle in the screenplay and the film itself.

Speaker 23 So when Goodwill Hunting arrives, it's like this pivot point.

Speaker 6 Do you like apples?

Speaker 16 Yeah.

Speaker 16 Well, I got a number.

Speaker 4 How do you like their maps?

Speaker 27 What is the thing that it is doing?

Speaker 8 Like, how does it inaugurate this this new era? What is it introducing to the movies they didn't have before?

Speaker 4 Dramatic class conflict that's there in this fundamental idea of a kid from the wrong side of the tracks from South Boston who is a prodigy and comes to Harvard, comes to the city's institutions, a kid from outside the institution coming to deal with the city's institutions.

Speaker 4 And it's right there in that scene that you showed, how you like them apples, because he's showing to some snobby guy that he got the girl.

Speaker 4 And that attitude is very much boiled into, I would say, the popular personality and certainly the public perception of working class Boston, working class Irish Boston, those neighborhoods, that it's very much up yours.

Speaker 4 We're going to show you Richies what it's all about. And then there's just inherent dramatic conflict there.

Speaker 19 Trevor Burrus And also just like because Matt Damon and Ben Affleck were so young and handsome and won the Oscar so charmingly from the screenplay, I think it just sort of seems like it was like, oh, there's this whole world that

Speaker 19 it's untapped.

Speaker 14 And then you start to see people sort of tapping it, and then it kind of reaches this imperial phase, like a couple years later when Clint Eastwood makes Mystic River.

Speaker 32 She in this Sean, we don't know.

Speaker 30 All we're doing right now is looking. Why don't we pull Sunshine up his ass? Let's take a look.

Speaker 32 My daughter's caught.

Speaker 32 I understand. My daughter's caught.
It's got blood in it. You got fucking dogs all over here.
Why you got dogs looking for my daughter, Sean?

Speaker 36 That feels like it's when the genre sort of like steps into the big time.

Speaker 4 And none of which would have happened without Dennis Lahane, I would say.

Speaker 4 Lahane's novels are imbued in Southey and Dorchester. And Mystic River takes place in a fictional neighborhood called The Flats.

Speaker 4 That's basically every working-class neighborhood in Boston sort of boiled into one. But without those novels, you would not have Mystic River.

Speaker 4 You would not have The Departed, which is not based on Lahane, but feeds off of that same thing. You wouldn't have Gone Baby Gone.
You wouldn't have The Town. You wouldn't have any of those movies.

Speaker 4 To my mind, he, standing on the shoulders of Higgins, created this genre that then Hollywood immediately jumped on for obvious reasons.

Speaker 14 Trevor Burrus, Jr.: If you had to define what makes a Boston movie a Boston movie, what is the animating

Speaker 16 thing for you?

Speaker 4 I have a certain frustration in that I think there are many Boston movies and people have been fixated mostly on one,

Speaker 4 which is the Boston novel.

Speaker 4 But

Speaker 4 it's hard not to be that way when, for one thing, we have one of the most charismatic gangsters on the planet running around, you know, running the city, pretty much.

Speaker 49 Few mobsters have ever ever been as infamous in the city as Whitey Bulger was in Boston. Besides extortion and flooding the city with cocaine, Bulger routinely performed or ordered executions.

Speaker 4 Not only was he a charismatic gangster, he had a charismatic brother who was in the state government.

Speaker 4 I mean, you can't come up with a, you know, a screenplay or a story that's more outrageous than that. That's one of the things I think Black Mask got right.

Speaker 4 I don't think that's a great movie, but it does get that weird Bulger-brother duality right.

Speaker 50 Southie Southy kids, we went straight from playing cops and robbers on the playground to doing it for real on the streets.

Speaker 50 Just like on the playground, it wasn't always easy to tell who's who.

Speaker 4 And that speaks to this sort of bifurcated nature of Boston as well-behaved and not well-behaved at all, as murderous and

Speaker 4 very respectable.

Speaker 9 We are just getting started.

Speaker 9 After the break, another guest comes onto the stage and we get into the city of Boston and Boston movies' thorny relationship with race.

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Speaker 37 So, Lisa Simmons is the artistic and executive director of the Roxbury International Film Festival, which has been running for 25 years and is the largest festival in New England celebrating the filmmaking of people of color.

Speaker 36 She is also a fourth-generation Bostonian, but does not have a Boston accent, as she just told me many times.

Speaker 27 Thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 17 Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 16 Thank you.

Speaker 14 Hi and Lisa also seem to know each other.

Speaker 17 We have known each other for a very long time.

Speaker 34 I want to now turn to sort of thinking about

Speaker 45 why Boston.

Speaker 14 We were starting to get there with Whitey and the history, but I mean, what do you think is, it's a big question, but like, if you have to think about why Boston, what do you think?

Speaker 17 I mean, I think Boston has this, as Ty was saying, it's this history. It's this gritty history.
It's perfect for screenwriting. You have the bad, like Ty said, against the good.

Speaker 17 You know, you have the gritty neighborhoods. You have the accent that gives it character.
You have the architecture that gives it character.

Speaker 17 So I think that when you have someone like a Dennis Lahane, you know, who's writing about what he knows also, you know, from here, from a Bostonian, that you're getting sort of an authenticity.

Speaker 17 And there are sort of like real people that you can connect to that. And everybody knew Whitey Bulger.

Speaker 17 And if you're from Boston and if you knew Boston back in the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, it was a very gritty city all over the city, whether you were in Charlestown, whether you were in Southeast, whether you were in Dorchester, whether you were in Roxbury.

Speaker 17 I mean, it was a city that was trying to find itself. And it had these different neighborhoods that all of these things were happening.

Speaker 17 And all of them had their own characters that you're like, wow, that is like, you want to know more about, because we're fascinated with crime and these things.

Speaker 4 And if I can speak to one thing, I think because the Boston blue blood aspect is so

Speaker 4 repressive, emotionally repressive,

Speaker 4 and that's rooted in Puritanism and all of that history, that it causes a heightened reaction among the people who came here later. And I think in that, there's inherent dramatic conflict as well.

Speaker 19 So you run the Roxbury Film Festival, which highlights the work, not just crime Boston movies, but the work of

Speaker 27 filmmakers of color.

Speaker 14 And one of the things that has been observed about Boston movies is how white they can be.

Speaker 45 But particularly sort of in the moment right after Goodwill Hunting, so sort of before the Imperial phase, there actually are a number of movies by and about people of color.

Speaker 23 And I was hoping you could tell me about them.

Speaker 17 Absolutely.

Speaker 17 So it's really funny because when Goodwill Hunting came out in 1997, I believe it was, it was the same time that Squeeze came out, which was written and directed by Robert Patton Spruill, who is a Roxbury native, who basically wrote a film about his life, about being a young thug in Roxbury, and really wanted to talk about, you know, sort of his life and how he turned his life around.

Speaker 17 And what's interesting is, is the film is really about how a mentor turned his life around.

Speaker 32 Hang on the street, and you bring that madness back up here, you can get us all killed. Life isn't a music video, so don't be fronting around here.

Speaker 32 We see you Buck Wilding on the corner and you and me got to talk.

Speaker 17 So they sort of had the same storyline, right? But go in two different directions. Although Rob did get a three-picture deal with Merrimacks after he did squeeze, but he did not get an Academy Award.

Speaker 17 It's actually a really great film if you can catch it somewhere.

Speaker 17 And then after that, you have, you know, another film that comes out in 2001 called Lyft, which was done by Domaine Davis and and Carrie Streeter, also from Boston, you know, about a young girl who works at the Prudential Center and starts boosting stuff.

Speaker 17 Played by Carrie Washington. Yeah, played by Carrie Washington, like her second film that she did.

Speaker 44 How you swing that.

Speaker 2 I was wearing Christina Perrin yesterday.

Speaker 57 They rarely suspect you when you're wearing this shit.

Speaker 23 I had everybody on the floor talking and laughing. Girl, I could have written that check in crayon.

Speaker 17 And at the same time that movie was made, Blue Hill Ave was being made.

Speaker 33 We set up crackhouses all over the south end. Blue Hill and Intervel was where we made the bulk of our money.
If you wanted cocaine, you didn't come to us. You just phoned it in and we came to you.

Speaker 17 So yeah, I mean, I think that we can't sleep on that, that there were also these movies that were being made in different neighborhoods of Boston that were telling sort of these same sort of crime stories and these coming of age stories.

Speaker 17 A lot of them were young kids who were trying to figure out how to deal with gangs and get out out of the gang culture that was actually happening and rampant in Roxbury at that time, just like the same thing with Goodwill Hunting and The Departed, like all of these other things where you had in another section of town this violence in a different way.

Speaker 14 You know, when you, if you were to Google or to look into research into this, like, why, the Boston movie yourselves, you would find actually a number of pieces that are sort of like flipply, like, duh, it's about race because you get to have white criminals in Boston.

Speaker 37 Like, A.O.

Speaker 45 Scott actually gave a quote about it.

Speaker 37 The fact is, Hollywood always prefers to make movies about white people and it is more comfortable making films about white criminals than black criminals.

Speaker 37 If you wanted to find a white underclass, you can find it in Boston, Southeast Charleston.

Speaker 1 So I'm curious, like, how much do you guys think race or its absence is like one of the big whys of the Boston movie's popularity?

Speaker 17 I think that's interesting what you just said about how people are like, what? White crime? I'm going to like, you know, it's, I don't know. It's like has this difference to it.

Speaker 17 It's almost like people are like, well, of course we know black people do crime but white people do crime it's like you know yeah let's watch that that's like you know these criminals are they're getting away with everything and um so so i mean i don't know is it is it a race thing is it a tie

Speaker 4 um yes it is um and i think that it is a race thing by the fact that boston's black population is invisible in mainstream boston movies uh the ones you talk about are wonderful movies but they are little known really outside of even the black filmmaking community or Boston filmmaking community, even in Boston, and virtually unknown around the rest of the country.

Speaker 4 Why is this? Well, I think, you know, as in many American cities, but especially in Boston, the black population has been redlined and just absolutely marginalized.

Speaker 4 And it's not part of the story in the public imagination of what Boston is, the wider American public imagination.

Speaker 4 And that, I think, absolutely is due to their exclusion from Boston's history and Boston's government until recent years.

Speaker 4 I've always felt that the ultimate Boston movie, the one that really would be truly and totally about Boston, would be about the busing crisis and nobody here would want to see it.

Speaker 17 Right, and we've certainly seen a number of those films in the documentary version, but not necessarily in the narrative version.

Speaker 55 At least twice, stones and bottles began to fly in the police charged, led by policemen on horseback.

Speaker 55 The police charge has cleared the way for the buses to pick up the black students at the end of the day.

Speaker 8 I think it is a little bit part of Boston's reputation nationally that like Boston is infamously very racist.

Speaker 17 I do think it's an elephant in the room, but I think that as Ty's saying, it's sort of like been erased. It's like doesn't want to be part of Boston's history.

Speaker 17 Boston's an immigrant city of Irish and Italians. And

Speaker 16 are black people people part of that immigration story?

Speaker 17 Oh, no, no, I don't know. You know what I mean? So it's sort of like, let's tell this story, because it's an easier story to tell.
The story of Boston's black history isn't as easy to tell, right?

Speaker 17 You know, I've been running the film festival for 27 years, and I still have filmmakers that come to Boston and say, there are black people in Boston.

Speaker 17 And I'm like, yeah, like a lot of black people in Boston. And because the history doesn't tell it.
The history on television doesn't tell it. The history in movies doesn't tell it.

Speaker 17 The history in books doesn't tell it.

Speaker 4 Whereas in New York, it does. In other cities, it does.

Speaker 17 And I'm like, well because I think it's a much more, they're more transient cities maybe. I'm thinking, you know, Boston has that deep history of being like, this is who we are.

Speaker 17 You know, the Mayflower, Paul Revere, you know, the Native American community is completely washed away too, is also erased. And maybe it's because it's a history where people have stayed here.

Speaker 17 So you can stick to one group of people and keep telling that story.

Speaker 14 So we've talked about what you were talking about, we talked about the history.

Speaker 19 We've talked about class conflict a little bit.

Speaker 37 We've talked about crime, Whitey Bulger.

Speaker 16 We've talked about race.

Speaker 1 Are there any other whys of Boston you think that we haven't hit on?

Speaker 17 You know, you do have the Ben Affleck and you do have the Mark Wagleburg. They're the, we're, you know, we're telling their stories, right? So they're the ones that are making things happen here.

Speaker 17 I think that that's why a lot of those movies get made here. And then you have the Boston accent.

Speaker 4 And nobody gets it right.

Speaker 4 Nobody gets it right. But it also marks us as exotic.
It's unusual. I mean, everybody knows a New York accent.
It's Bugs Bunny, you know?

Speaker 27 It's Bugs Bunny?

Speaker 16 What are you doing? Yeah, it is.

Speaker 4 It's Brooklyn.

Speaker 16 Okay, okay. It's Brooklyn.

Speaker 37 We have a variety of accents as well.

Speaker 17 So do we.

Speaker 4 And I remember interviewing Laura Linney for the Boston Globe around the time of Mystic River, and she says there are two accents that when an actor hears they have to do it, it sends a chill down their spine.

Speaker 4 One is South Africa, the other is Boston.

Speaker 25 Ty and Lisa just gave me a wicked setup.

Speaker 15 When we come back, we're going to speak with a linguist all about the Boston accent.

Speaker 46 Hey, it's Mary Harris, host of Slate's daily news podcast, What Next? This week, we're following the real-time collapse of public health in the U.S.

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Speaker 59 If those things go away, they have zero incentive to stay and continue to make vaccines.

Speaker 46 Check out What Next, wherever you listen.

Speaker 60 Hey, it's Dan Koise from Slate. I made a new word game and I hope you'll come try it out.
It's called pears, like the fruit, pears.

Speaker 60 I wanted to make a word game that rewards not only random ass scrabble words, but the fun words that we use in our real lives.

Speaker 16 Tankini, dillweed, gloopy, twink.

Speaker 60 We'll post a new game every day, and your job is to make as many words as you can, to find great pear words, and of course, to beat your friends.

Speaker 60 If that sounds like you're kind of fun, head to slate.com slash games to find pears today. That's slate.com slash games and look for pears.

Speaker 25 Our final guest was the sociolinguist Dr. Danny Urker.

Speaker 24 Danny is a professor at Boston University, and his own research is largely about Spanish-speaking Bostonians. But he also knows a lot of things about Boston accents, as you're going to hear.

Speaker 15 Thank you.

Speaker 45 So, just like to start with, what is a Boston accent?

Speaker 18 I guess I would say the phrase Boston accent is an informal way of referring to the ways of speaking English of people, certain people, who were born and raised in New England.

Speaker 18 And it's a variety of American English. Linguists tend to refer to it as New England English.

Speaker 18 The reason why I say New England and not just Boston is that there are people who have the so-called Boston accent throughout the greater New England area.

Speaker 37 Okay, like why is a Boston accent so why does Laura Linney have blood, like her blood runs cold to hear she has to do it?

Speaker 18 Oh, the actors don't like it. Well, the actors don't like it because they haven't had it explained to them by a linguist.

Speaker 27 All right, let's do it. Let's do it.

Speaker 16 Okay, sure.

Speaker 18 Well, when it comes to a regional variety of a language, what you have to identify are its key ingredients.

Speaker 23 So, what are the key ingredients of a Boston accent? Sure.

Speaker 37 Well, you don't even like the word accent.

Speaker 14 What's the right word for?

Speaker 18 I don't like the word accent because it's judgy.

Speaker 16 And

Speaker 18 linguists are not judgy. If you find a judgy linguist, they should have their license revoked.
We don't actually have licenses.

Speaker 18 But as I have said to my family for years and years, linguists are not the grammar police.

Speaker 18 We are more like biologists who are interested in observing language in the wild. Right.

Speaker 18 So when it comes to the constituent features of New England English, there are words that people use and there are structures that people put together and sounds that people produce.

Speaker 18 Now, both Ty and Lisa claimed that they don't have a Boston accent.

Speaker 16 Oh, no. Here he comes.
Here he comes.

Speaker 18 So, we're going to put him on the spot just a little bit. So, Ty, and don't overthink this.
Okay. On the count of three, what do you call the little rainbow candies that go on top of ice cream?

Speaker 4 Jimmies.

Speaker 16 Good boy.

Speaker 16 All right.

Speaker 18 So, most people who are not speakers of New England English call them sprinkles.

Speaker 37 Sprinkles.

Speaker 16 Good. Okay.

Speaker 18 If you are a person who says Jimmies,

Speaker 18 you probably are a speaker of New England English. If you are a person who uses the word wicked to mean very,

Speaker 18 you're probably a speaker of New England, well, you are, but those types of features, these words, these vocabulary items, they are

Speaker 18 interesting and easy to point out, but it's really the sounds that give

Speaker 18 Boston English, New England English, its distinctive flavor. And there are several of them.

Speaker 18 If you ask folks to impersonate a Bostonian, right, the stereotypical phrase that you'll hear from some people is, and I'm going to say it like me, which I'm from St. Louis, Missouri originally.

Speaker 18 So I would say, park the car in Harvard Yard, right? But let's put Lisa on the spot again.

Speaker 18 Can you do it for me as a good old-fashioned local?

Speaker 17 Park the car in Harvard Yard?

Speaker 16 Good work.

Speaker 18 So there's a couple things to point out here, right? So when we were in the green room chatting before, Ty mentioned this word that will be useful for us, and that is rhotic or rhoticity.

Speaker 18 It's a word that linguists use to describe R-like sounds. Okay, so there's a whole lot going on with Rs.
in New England English. There's two main things to understand.

Speaker 18 It seems like sometimes speakers of New England English don't produce their Rs, and then it seems like they put them where they shouldn't be.

Speaker 18 Right? So it seems like they're deleting them and adding them. And this phrase, parked car in Harvard Yard, is a great example to zero in on this.

Speaker 18 There's also something else happening with that phrase. So the vowel in park, the ah, is actually of a different quality.
So maybe, can I get the audience to do something? Yes. Okay.
All right.

Speaker 16 So everybody just say paw for me.

Speaker 18 I heard some fronted ahs already. Keep them back like this.
Pa.

Speaker 18 Now move your tongue forward so it becomes pa.

Speaker 16 Good.

Speaker 18 So instead of park, we have to move our vowel front, pa, and then don't produce the r. So say pack.

Speaker 16 Pack.

Speaker 18 You got it.

Speaker 16 Okay.

Speaker 18 And we can do that to the vowel in pack, the ka, okay, but here's the tricky bit.

Speaker 18 The r at the end of car in this phrase is special because the sound that comes after it is a vowel, car in.

Speaker 18 Okay, if you are someone who deletes their R's and you have to bring it to the auto mechanic because you need a new coboreta,

Speaker 18 You will very likely delete the R at the end of car because the sound that comes after the R is a B. It's a consonant.

Speaker 16 Cabereta, perfect.

Speaker 18 But if you have a vowel that comes after the R, you're not allowed to delete that R. You have to link the two vowels.
So it's pak,

Speaker 18 the karin,

Speaker 18 havidyad.

Speaker 18 So it's not deleting all of your R's, right? It's deleting those Rs that are syllable final, that have consonants after them. If you have two vowels, you're not allowed to delete that R.

Speaker 26 In fact, you even put one in sometimes. Good.

Speaker 18 Nice setup. I think that's

Speaker 18 it. So there is our deletion.
There's our linking. And then this last one is what's sometimes called intrusive R.

Speaker 18 So if you have two vowels together, so in fact, Matt Damon was on the James Corden show and James Corden said something like, do me a little Boston, whatever. And Damon said, okay, here's the deal.

Speaker 61 You would say like, like the word ma, right? For your mother. Yeah.
Yeah. So you'd say, is ma downstairs? It's ma downstairs.

Speaker 49 But if

Speaker 58 that word was followed by a vowel, you'd have to add an R.

Speaker 61 So you'd say, is Myra upstairs? Is Mar upstairs? Is that all right? Is Myra upstairs?

Speaker 18 So you have to put that R in there to resolve what linguists call hiatus. We love terminology.
So you have to resolve the hiatus by putting an R in.

Speaker 18 So it seems like New England English speakers are chaotically deleting and inserting Rs, but they're not. It's highly rule governed, highly systematic.

Speaker 18 And unless you have someone explain this to you, it's going to be an absolute disaster to try to do this.

Speaker 17 And that's why we're wicked smart.

Speaker 8 There you go.

Speaker 13 Wait, there's honestly, there's many, you use this word salience.

Speaker 45 Yes.

Speaker 37 My sense is that there's actually like a lot of ingredients, but there's certain ones that are more important.

Speaker 8 The R is really important, but there's others.

Speaker 16 Absolutely.

Speaker 18 And words like wicked and roticity, they're at the top of the mountain.

Speaker 18 But then there are some more modest features that are just as important to the overall sauce if we want to beat this food metaphor to death, right?

Speaker 18 There are, for a lot of folks in New England, three ways of saying Mary.

Speaker 18 You have the name. Mary.
I'm going to say them all the same because that's natural to my phonology, my sound system. So the name Mary, then wishing someone a happy Christmas, and then nuptials.
Okay.

Speaker 18 So in New England, do you have this three-way distinction? So I don't. Ty, you do? Yes.

Speaker 18 Give it to me. Man who doesn't have a Boston accent.

Speaker 16 Yes. I want to hear that.
There's Mary, my friend.

Speaker 4 Yep. There's Mary.

Speaker 16 Uh-huh.

Speaker 4 That's when you go out and you wed somebody.

Speaker 18 And the one in the middle.

Speaker 4 And there's Mary.

Speaker 18 Good job. You absolutely have New England phonology, my friend.

Speaker 4 I am never going to speak again in my entire life. No, it's just.

Speaker 16 Yeah.

Speaker 18 So the three-way Mary distinction, a phrase you probably didn't think you'd hear today. The three-way married distinction is another feature.

Speaker 19 There's two just like quick things I want to know about accent, the accent.

Speaker 8 One is that I think there's a stereotype that it only belongs to white working class Bostonians, but that's not the case at all, right?

Speaker 18 It is not the case at all. So there's a very famous politician named Mel King.
His folks were from Guyana and Barbados. So he's Caribbean in ancestry.

Speaker 18 but he, you know, in the Boston milieu, would certainly be recognized as a black Bostonian, and he has a number of these characteristic features.

Speaker 44 And they began to see that the young people who were white in other parts of the city were going to schools where there were 15 and 20 youngsters in a class, as opposed to their youngsters being 45 and sometimes 50 in a class.

Speaker 44 And they said, of course, we're as deserving, our youngsters are as deserving of that good environment as the youngsters in other parts of the city. And they began to move.

Speaker 18 So these features characteristic of New England English speakers are not restricted to white folks.

Speaker 8 Okay, what is happening to the Boston accent? Do you think it's less prevalent now? Is the Boston accent going away?

Speaker 18 One of the major trends with respect to global languages is that their regionalness is starting to erode. We don't exactly know why this is the case.

Speaker 18 We have some ideas, but it is undoubtedly the case that regional vernaculars, as linguists like to describe them, are endangered species, for sure.

Speaker 18 So Boston is actually becoming R-full again.

Speaker 18 This happened in New York City starting in their 50s and 60s.

Speaker 18 What used to be an R list city is now an R full city, and that's happening in Boston, such that people like our former mayor, Marty Walsh, is a card-carrying New England English speaker, but other famous Bostonians born later like Chris Evans sounds very much not like a Boston native.

Speaker 4 I will also point out, I think that it's interesting that as the Boston accent is getting diluted and phased out, it's getting enshrined in movies. And I don't think there's a coincidence in that.

Speaker 4 I think we like to hold on to this idea of this exotic enclave.

Speaker 4 And I also just want to point out, everybody in this room has their own idea of what the worst Boston accent in a movie they've ever heard.

Speaker 4 Yeah, because we're very, we know when it's wrong. And for me, that's Rob Morrow and a quiz show.

Speaker 4 Just unbelievably bad.

Speaker 48 Do you ever notice anything out of the ordinary about the quiz show you're on?

Speaker 60 You mean besides its popularity?

Speaker 48 What I'm hoping is you might be able to give me some kind of roadmap here. I feel like we speak the same language.

Speaker 17 The other worst one, Blake Lively in the town.

Speaker 16 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 17 Oh,

Speaker 17 yeah. Yeah, that was good.

Speaker 57 Why isn't she here then?

Speaker 17 She's going away with you.

Speaker 12 Why isn't she here?

Speaker 16 Such a trashy little fuck pad.

Speaker 7 After a Tiffany necklace, I thought a room at the Ritz.

Speaker 4 And we're very impressed when somebody gets it right, which for

Speaker 4 Jeremy Renner, Amy Ryan, and Gone Baby Green, who has the same. I don't know if I can.
She has one line of dialogue that to me is the best spoken bit of Boston dialogue from an outsider.

Speaker 4 And I don't know if I can say it in your podcast.

Speaker 16 Oh, we already cursed.

Speaker 4 Okay, she comes into a room, says, it smells like cack in here.

Speaker 17 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 16 I love that.

Speaker 17 We went back to raise, to raise mothers, whatever.

Speaker 24 I don't know where that mother went, but she left all her fucking cats in there, and it smells like cock.

Speaker 26 We have one more question, and I was curious, do you guys have a favorite Boston movie?

Speaker 4 Friends of Eddie Coil, I think, is sort of the Rosetta Stone of Boston movies. It's where it starts.

Speaker 4 One movie I love that is Manchester by the Sea.

Speaker 16 Teddy, I swear to God, I'm going to knock your fucking block off. Great parenting.
What? What did you say? I said great parenting. Fuck you.
Mind your fucking fucking

Speaker 16 fucking asshole.

Speaker 4 It's not set in Boston, but it is very much attuned to the differences between the North Shaw and the South Shaw.

Speaker 16 That's good. Thank you.

Speaker 4 I can put it on when I need to.

Speaker 18 You have a Boston accent.

Speaker 16 It does.

Speaker 17 You repress it.

Speaker 4 You know, it's about townies in Manchester, and you can argue that there are no townies in Manchester, but I still think that it gets something about the repression and the way people in these parts can beat up on themselves.

Speaker 4 I think it's a really good movie. And I also love the verdict.

Speaker 4 I just think that's that's an almost perfect movie.

Speaker 43 You couldn't hack it as a lawyer. You were a bag man for the boys downtown.
You still are. I know about you.
Are you done? You're damn right. I'm done.
I'm going to ask for a mistrial.

Speaker 17 That is probably... The verdict is probably mine, but I am a huge rom-com.

Speaker 17 So I'm going to have to say fever pitch, as ridiculous as it was. Sorry.

Speaker 44 This is exactly what you liked about me.

Speaker 57 That I was capable of having a passionate commitment with something, a devotion.

Speaker 62 Yes, but you feel it for the Red Sox, and I was hoping that someday you might redirect that. All those things that you feel for that team, I feel them too.

Speaker 62 For you.

Speaker 17 And who doesn't love a Drew Barrymore movie? I don't know.

Speaker 16 Jimmy Fallon.

Speaker 17 Yeah, Jimmy Fallon.

Speaker 16 Come on.

Speaker 17 Yeah, not great Boston accents, but you know, it is a rom-com.

Speaker 8 Danny, I know know this is not your area.

Speaker 16 This is not my wheelhouse.

Speaker 18 This is probably a

Speaker 17 linguistically cliched ant.

Speaker 18 I'm off the clock for a minute, I guess, linguistically.

Speaker 18 You know, I really do love Goodwill Hunting. I think it's one of the most beautiful performances by Robin Williams in a movie ever.

Speaker 18 Although his accent is terrible, it's not great,

Speaker 4 but he's still Robin Williams.

Speaker 16 You're an orphan, right?

Speaker 56 Do you think I'd know the first thing about how hard your life has been?

Speaker 16 How you feel, who you are?

Speaker 56 Because I've had all of a twist.

Speaker 56 Does that encapsulate you?

Speaker 14 When I spoke with Danny before this, he said that he does watch movies with his family, and they have to be like, stop talking about the accents.

Speaker 1 It's an occupation.

Speaker 8 So that really speaks to Robin Lillian's performance, if you could look past.

Speaker 35 Indeed.

Speaker 34 Thank you guys so, so, so much for chatting with us.

Speaker 13 Thank you guys so much for being here.

Speaker 17 Thank you. Thank you.
That was fun. Thank you very much.

Speaker 14 This is Decoder Ring.

Speaker 28 I'm Willa Paskin.

Speaker 25 Thanks again to Ty Burr, Lisa Simmons, and Danny Urker for joining me on stage at the WBUR Festival.

Speaker 14 You can find Ty's thinking and writing about movies at Tybur's Watchlist.com.

Speaker 20 And if you want to hear even more about the Boston accent from Danny, this week we have a bonus episode of exactly that exclusively for Slate Plus members.

Speaker 18 There was a change that occurred to R

Speaker 18 in the southeast of England. So some of the folks in and around the area of London, they contributed R listness

Speaker 18 to the Massachusetts Bay colony.

Speaker 21 If you want to hear the rest and you aren't already a Slate Plus member, you can subscribe now on Apple Podcasts by clicking try free at the top of the Decoder Ring show page.

Speaker 14 Or you can visit slate.com slash decoder plus to get access wherever you listen.

Speaker 21 Slate Plus members get to listen to Decoder Ring and every other Slate podcast without any ads.

Speaker 21 That includes another show that recorded live at the WBUR Festival, the Great Slate legal podcast, Amicus.

Speaker 29 Co-host Mark Joseph Stern sat down with a law professor to discuss what exactly went into the Roberts courts embrace of something called the unitary executive theory, which has become carte blanche for some of the Trump administration's most outrageous actions.

Speaker 28 Check out that live episode of Amicus on all your podcast apps.

Speaker 28 This episode was produced by me and Max Friedman.

Speaker 41 We make Decodering with Katie Shepard and Evan Chung, our supervising producer.

Speaker 25 Merrick Jacob is senior technical director.

Speaker 28 Special thanks to Katie Rayford, Henry Grabar, Ian Coss, Sophie Summergrad, Sarah Vinson, Adrian Walker, and Stephen Davey, senior producer and director at WBUR City Space.

Speaker 29 You can find a list of every movie we talked about in this episode on our show page at slate.com.

Speaker 14 If you have any cultural mysteries you want us to decode, please email us at decodering at slate.com. And you can also call us on our new Decodering hotline.

Speaker 41 That number is 347-460-7281.

Speaker 21 We'd love to hear any and all of your ideas for the show.

Speaker 25 We'll see you in two weeks.

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