S33 E3: The Mounties Always Get Their Man | Calls From a Killer

Did you know most people only have three go-to podcasts?

Well, we like a challenge.

Here are three reasons World Report should be in your top three.

One, we wake up early so you don't have to.

Our producers are hard at work even before the sunrises.

Two, we cover all the news you need from Canada and around the world.

And three, the best part, it's just 10 minutes long.

You can catch up quickly and still have time for your other favorites.

Follow World Report wherever you get your podcasts.

This is a CBC podcast.

The following episode contains descriptions of violence and sexual assault.

Please take care when listening.

I grew up in the United States, even though both my parents are Canadian.

So there are certain cultural icons north of the border that seem like a quirky novelty, as well as a source of pride to me as a kid.

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police are a good example.

Like Nelson Eddy during the golden age of Hollywood, singing Song of the Mounties in Rosemarie.

A proud, noble police officer in his red surge uniform and Stetson hat mounted on his horse.

The Mounties were the cartoon Dudley Dew Wright or square-jawed, upright constable Benton Frazier in the TV show Due South.

So what's your story?

You work in a circus?

No, ma'am.

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

I first came to Chicago on the trail of the killers of my father, and for reasons that don't need exploring at this juncture, I've remained attached as liaison with the Canadian Consulate.

They were an incorruptible force for good.

Maybe a little too earnest, but effective.

The Mountie always gets his man.

If I had a rose-colored view of the RCMP, that was also due in large part to my grandfather, Peter Worthington.

Pete viewed the RCMP fondly, and the cops liked Pete.

Throughout his journalism career, they had a good working relationship.

He cultivated reliable sources in the mounties and became their go-to reporter when they wanted to get a story out.

Pete knew they had their faults, but he wasn't about to burn a bridge at the expense of a scoop.

Until recently, I never really gave much thought to the RCMP and what their function is in Canada.

They're like the Canadian FBI, but also not.

They serve as state police, sorry, I mean provincial police, but not in all provinces.

Ontario and Quebec have their own.

Also, in many places in the country, there are no local police forces.

So, contrary to what you think of a federal authority that investigates serious crimes, it's up to the nearby RCMP detachment to do traffic stops and respond to 911 calls.

It's a confusing patchwork of jurisdictions across one of the largest countries in the world, if we're talking landmass.

But when Clifford Olson was on the loose committing murder after murder, there could be no doubt catching him was the RCMP's responsibility.

Before working on this story with Arlene, I thought they'd done a pretty good job.

They'd caught a serial killer in a matter of months.

Surely that's a sign of solid police work.

But as I learned how many times Olson slipped through the RCMP's fingers, how many victims were ignored, how many interviews they didn't do, how many times Olson was practically begging to be caught, my opinion changed.

The authorities didn't explain themselves.

Not back then, and not now.

This is Calls from a Killer from CBC's Uncover.

I'm Nathaniel Frum.

And I'm Arlene Binan.

This is episode 3.

The Mounties Always Get Their Man.

It's July 1981, and Corporal Les Forsyth and a fellow Mountie from the Burnaby RCMP detachment visit Olson's apartment.

If they were going to place a trail on him, they needed to confirm he actually lived there.

His neighbors tell them he'd left town on a vacation down the west coast of California.

They don't know when he'd be back.

At this time, the RCMP had finally identified Olson as a possible suspect in the disappearance of children from the area, even if he was just one in a long list of others, various detachments now knew his name.

There was no way, there was no system to link similar crimes in different jurisdictions, even if they were next door to one another.

You know, so Lower Mayland's very small in geographic area.

Even there, you had kids going missing and weeks and months going by before other detachments knew that they had a case similar to the one you were investigating.

Glenn Woods is a former RCMP investigator who now operates an investigative consulting firm in Vancouver.

He worked on the Olson case back in 1981, but admits he was fairly low in the chain of command.

I wasn't a big city investigator here.

I was a guy that was on drug squad that just moved over a major crime.

So I was kind of like the new guy on the block.

So one of the foot soldiers that did a lot of the canvassing.

And really,

my first real active role in the investigation was when Simon Partington went missing.

Simon Partington was the nine-year-old boy who'd gone missing only weeks before.

Because of his age and his gender and the circumstances, he came from a supportive family, all of that stuff.

So immediately when he went missing,

that was all hands on deck.

During that time in the investigation, there was a name that cropped up, Clifford Olson.

When did you first hear that name?

Well, I knew Cliff Olson because he's a rounder from the lower mainland.

He spent more time in jail than he spent out, but he was always known for these petty crimes, B ⁇ Es.

There's no information or anything I can remember where he offended in this way.

prior to him being in his late 30s, early 40s, which is really late for these kinds kinds of offenders to start looming, you know?

So even before 1981, Olson was well known to the RCMP, if not as a serial killer, certainly as a career criminal.

And Glenn's right.

In his entire adult life, Olson only spent around 1700 days on the outside, not incarcerated.

That's just a little over four and a half years.

He was first imprisoned when he was 17, in the late 50s, for a break and enter.

For the next 22 years, he'd be in and out of custody, tallying up more than 90 convictions.

Put away for robberies, burglaries, and forgeries mostly, Olson, by all accounts a charming man, would sometimes be granted early release for good behavior.

On other occasions, he had his sentence extended after escape attempts.

But he kind of thrived inside.

It was in prison that Olson honed a talent for gaining and dealing in information, a skill that could earn him favor with prison guards, parole boards, and the police.

His greatest triumph on that front involved a man named Gary Marcoux.

Police in Mission, British Columbia have charged 34-year-old Gary Francis Marceau with murder in the death of nine-year-old Jean Duve, whose body was found tied to a tree in a remote forested area.

In 1976, Olson befriended Marcoux while they were both in prison in the BC Penitentiary.

Marcoux was facing charges of rape and murder.

The girl was last seen alive by playmates on Wednesday night playing with a resident of a halfway house who was on parole after being convicted of rape.

The halfway house.

The case was at a standstill because the crown prosecutor, a man named Bob Shantz, didn't feel there was enough evidence to convict.

But Olson provided a lucky break.

So this Gary Marcoux who I know all my life told me about this murder and rape, so I got him to write everything out, Turner.

Olson came up with the idea to trick Marcoux into writing down a detailed confession to the murder under the pretense that he'd help him come up with an alibi.

Olson promptly sent the confession to British Columbia's Attorney General and continued to talk to Marcoux on the inside, gradually gathering more evidence.

Marcoux eventually pleaded guilty and was sentenced to 25 years without parole.

A sensational coup for Prosecutor Shance and the foundation of Olson's relationship with the RCMP and his reputation as an effective snitch.

And I got a nice letter from Bob saying that with my cooperation and everything, that they were pleased pleased I asked nothing in return, blah, blah, blah.

And it was my stuff that convicted them.

I can tell you that Clifford Olson was an informer to see what Clifford Olson could get and often thought he was smarter than the cops.

So he may have provided information, but there was something in it for him.

Looking back, many think that's why the RCMP took so long to suspect Olson.

The biggest problem they ran into was the kind of refusal to accept that someone they had worked with in the past as an informant who had helped convict another child killer in the late 70s was in fact now manipulating them and murdering children himself.

Ian Mogaru is retired now, but he spent 40-plus years as a journalist, more than half that time with the Vancouver Sun newspaper.

And in the years he was working as a journalist, the term serial killer was used far less than it is today.

The public didn't have the words to describe someone like Olson.

People didn't understand at the time and had not really processed or considered the idea that there were individuals among us that were preying on children.

And I think that was an incredible, shocking, and a very horrific idea for most people to accept.

He makes the point that in the early 80s, it took the community longer to come to what now seems like an obvious conclusion.

Today, it seems to be sort of a banal kind of concept, but back then,

it was difficult for people to believe this had happened and that someone was actually

out there killing children on a regular basis for their own sexual gratification.

On July 22, 1981, approximately three weeks after police made Olson a suspect, he, his wife Joan, and their infant son returned from a vacation in California.

They were back in B.C.

and back on the radar of the RCMP.

That same day, Corporal Ed Drozda of the Serious Crimes Unit of the Mounties also came back from vacation.

Assigned to the Olson case, he met up with a detective named Dennis Tarr from the local police service of the city of Delta, close to Vancouver.

Tarr was the one who would inch the RCMP closer to seeing Olson as their primary suspect.

I believe he was a confidential informant for Dennis Tarr.

He was telling Tarr about stolen property and, you know, where he could get it.

And I think what Olson was doing was backfilling information he had from his fence about other robberies and so forth.

John Daly, who was a reporter for the BCTV news station.

In any event, also was making money from the cops, ratting out other criminals, and suggested to Tar that he might be able to get some information from bad guys about who is taking these kids.

Tar, you know,

really saw that something was fishy here.

This just didn't square.

This didn't make any sense.

Despite these rising suspicions, the RCMP and other police forces weren't able to act faster than Olson.

He's brazenly abducting and murdering at alarming speed.

Seven children are now dead, and in the last week of July alone, he murders his final four victims.

On the morning of July 23rd, Olson spotted 15-year-old Raymond King Jr.

waiting for a bus in New Westminster.

King had been out looking for a summer job to make some cash.

He never made it home.

On the night King disappeared, Detective Tarr paid Olson a visit.

I just come back home from a kill on the day that,

what the heck, that cop from

Surrey come over to visit me?

Yeah.

Tarr probed a bit about what more Olson knew about the disappearances and murders, asking specifically about the nine-year-old Simon Partington.

Olson was reportedly relaxed, playing with his baby son as they talked.

Tar left without anything substantial.

The RCMP did not put Olson under surveillance, not before Raymond King Jr., and not afterward.

I just finished killing King

at that time, and

had they had me under surveillance like they should have, King would have been alive today.

The very next day, an 18-year-old West German tourist named Sigrun Arnd is hanging out at the Caribou, a hotel and pub along the highway.

She meets a man with dark curly hair

who offers her a ride.

At approximately 3 o'clock, I saw this German girl walking

and I stopped and asked her what she was.

She told me she was over on a holiday on a tour trip with some friends, a group, and I says, yeah, I says, how come aren't you with them?

She said that she took the day off for herself.

And the encounter follows a well-worn pattern.

Olsom picks her up and drives her to a boggy area outside of Richmond, the same place he took Simon Partington.

The hammer, I don't recall what I'd done with it now, but it was thrown in the river.

I then proceeded home that night and had a late supper around 7 o'clock.

I'm Dennis Cooper, host of Culpable, and I want to tell you about this case I've been following in a small Ohio town.

When 17-year-old Danny Violet stormed out of his house one afternoon in 1998, his family thought it was just another episode of Teenage Angst, but their worst fears materialized when his lifeless, asphyxiated body was later found in a nearby cornfield.

The question remains, what happened to Danny?

From Tenderfoot TV, an all-new season of Culpable is available now.

On July 25th, 1981, Near a town named Agassiz, four campers came across human remains.

They were soon confirmed to belong to Judy Cosma, a 14-year-old girl who had disappeared about two weeks earlier.

She had been chalked up as another runaway.

She was really outgoing.

She loved sports.

She had really bad asthma since she was five years old, so

she was limited to doing certain things.

She got sick quite a bit when she was 8, 9, 10, 11.

I mean, a couple of times we almost actually lost her

because her asthma was so bad.

Bridget Cosma is Judy's sister.

She talked to us from her home in Langley, B.C.

Sometimes now I look back,

I wish nothing.

I wish she was still here.

But

if you want someone to pass away, I'd rather she passed away from her illness than being brutally murdered like she was.

When Judy didn't show up to her shift at McDonald's and come home as expected, it was Bridget, seven years her senior, who went out on a frantic search.

I went into panic mode.

I searched everywhere for her right till the evening.

My parents, they were going out of their mind.

So I drove around everywhere, everywhere in Richmond.

I went to every possible friend she knew, and it just went on

all night to the point where she couldn't knock on people's door 11, 12 o'clock at night.

When the Cosmas tried to report Judy missing to their local RCMP detachment, they received the customary response.

Nothing could be done before 48 hours had passed, which infuriates Bridget still.

I mean, they knew that there was children already missing.

Do you know what I mean?

Or they already knew something was up, but they never shared it, right, with the public.

Or, you know, they probably knew that she probably was another victim.

After her body was found, did you know, I mean, when the police came to tell you you about it, did they tell you she was murdered then?

Good question.

No.

They just said that they had found Judy's body.

And if someone in the family can go to the headquarters to come and identify some things.

Was that you?

Did you go?

I did.

I went.

My parents were too distraught.

My mother was put on medication.

She was not capable.

She couldn't function.

They didn't tell you too much.

They just had this long table, I remember, with a whole bunch of stuff put out on the table.

And they asked me to pick out anything that would look familiar.

They didn't offer someone to help be beside you.

So

you could imagine my state of mind.

I walked on the long table

and I saw right away Judy's necklace, Judy's watch, Judy's little ring,

and I pointed to them

and I really can't remember what happened after that.

It was extremely traumatic.

Even just thinking about it, it still hurts so much.

And I don't know why.

Like other families we've spoken to, the Cosmas would later piece together how their loved one became acquainted with Olson.

Judy had previously attended a Christmas party thrown by a friend's family, and there she'd met Olson.

By this time, he was already involved with his soon-to-be wife Joan, but he was there on a date because he was cheating with a relative of Judy's friend.

So that was the first encounter.

And according to my mom, Judy had come home and told her, my mom, that this man at the party was offering her a job, you know, that he was in construction.

And if she wanted to make money, he would pay $10

an hour to wash the windows of construction sites.

And and my mother of course said absolutely not

but I think that he already selected Judy at this point

the same day that Judy Cosmos body was discovered Corporal Edge Rosda received a call from Clifford Olson he was shopping himself around offering to become a paid informant.

At the time, the RCMP was still haggling over the details of putting Olson under surveillance.

Two days later, 15-year-old Terry Lynn Carson disappeared.

Her mother reported her missing.

The next day, the RCMP finally put a tail on Olson.

The officers tasked with watching him noted he was driving erratically, off habit, and at a frantic speed.

He was almost impossible to track.

By 1.30 p.m., on the very day they started, the RCMP pulled their surveillance operation.

They assessed that Olson was already onto them.

They were wrong.

I never knew at one time that I was under surveillance.

Not once.

Not one time did I knew I was under surveillance.

The same night, at around 10 p.m., Olson went to meet Dennis Tarr at the Caribou Hotel Lounge in Surrey with a younger man in tow.

Olson thought Detective Tarr was looking to him for tips.

$200,000 worth of TVs had recently been stolen in the area.

He smelt a paycheck.

But Tar, with RCMP Corporals Fred Mele and Edge Rosda watching from another table, was more interested in asking about the missing children.

I told him that he would have to put me on a $2,000 wage a month and I'd keep my eyes open as I was working in construction.

As Olson leaves the restaurant, Tar is more convinced than ever that Olson is responsible for the string of missing young people.

Now with Olson firmly back in their sights, RSCMP surveillance follows him as he drives into the night.

Outside Surrey, they observe Olson with his male friend pick up another young man and then two teenage girls looking to hitchhike.

The surveillance team stops the car and sees the two girls holding beers they say Olson gave them.

Olson is arrested for contributing to juvenile delinquency.

We don't know how, but Olson is released by 3.30 a.m.

that morning.

And by lunchtime that day, he meets with Tara again at a white spot, which is a chain of restaurants in BC.

And he's properly introduced to the RCMP's Fred Maillay and Ed Drosta.

This is Olson recording his perspective of the meeting in 1991.

We went over to the White Spot over in Delta and we discussed the $100,000 reward that was put out for a girl that was murdered and raped on Vancouver Island.

And I said I might have some information for them and I wanted them to put me on a payroll of $3,000 a month to gather information.

After that meeting, you'd think Olson would have said enough for the RCMP to double down on their surveillance, but they lifted their tail on Olson.

By the next afternoon, Olson had picked up 17-year-old Louise Chartran as she was waiting to start her shift at a restaurant in Maple Ridge, B.C.

She would be his last victim, his 11th confirmed before his perverse luck ran out.

In the blazing heat of August 5th, Raymond King's badly decomposed body is found south of the popular Weaver Lake camping district near Agassiz.

He's the third missing child to be found, and only a few hundred meters from the scene where police had discovered Judy Cosma's body just 12 days earlier.

By the peak of summer, there was no escaping the news that children in the lower mainland of British Columbia were in great danger.

But the police were still not making it public that they only suspected one person to be responsible.

Our investigations over the past several days have now resulted in the discovery of two bodies, thought to be those of some of the seven children that have been reported missing.

And our investigations are still underway at this moment.

Former TV reporter John Daly says patience was starting to fray, as was the previously civil relationship between the media and the police.

You know, you do need the cops, and if they want to sort of teach you a lesson, they can feed the stories to somebody else and you get beat on it.

And, you know, so the cops were in a real power position.

And then when bodies were discovered, they often didn't tell us.

They'd hide that information for a week or two, in which case, you know, the TV stations couldn't get any pictures.

The crime scene had been vacated.

And And BCTV sort of took an outside-the-box approach to dealing with the police saying, you know, you owe us answers.

And, you know, we're the agents of the public.

And we're trying to ask the questions that the average Joe, the average cab driver, the average McDonald's worker would ask in a situation like this.

Like, what the hey is going on?

What are you doing?

You know, is there any progress?

Do you have any suspects?

Why is this taking so long?

How come another kid has disappeared?

I remember one day having a, like almost a shouting match.

I had stayed up almost all night writing a big list of questions for Superintendent Bruce Northrop, who was the head of the task force.

And they had a news conference, and I went to the news conference and

basically just started hammering away, and we went at it, blow for blow.

I think Northrop at some point said, you know, okay, 10 questions, that's it.

I wouldn't say whether or not they had a suspect.

And it was like, I guess, three days after that when they popped Olson.

It was August 12th at night.

Olson had been under now constant surveillance for five days when he was observed picking up two young female hitchhikers.

The Mounties followed his car until he pulled over and headed with the girls into a wooded area on Vancouver Island.

Knowing the likely fate awaiting the hitchhikers, they couldn't risk waiting to see what happened.

They grabbed Olson.

While searching his car, in his glove box, they found a notebook.

Inside the cover was written Judy Cosmo's name.

I got picked up on the 12th, and there was that note still sealed inside the cover of this notebook with Judy Cosmo's name in it.

And I was real scared about that, really, really scared.

For the next week, the RCMP interrogated Olson intensively.

After that, his name was formally tied to the murders, and it exploded in the media.

I was on a day off, and I'm in the newsroom filling out timesheets so I can get paid.

And

the assignment editor says to me they've caught this child killer

it was pandemonium but it was big and then when we finally found out that the person was Clifford Robert Olson and that he was basically a career criminal all hell broke loose

John's network BCTV naturally had blanket coverage Police expect Clifford Robert Olson to be charged next week with at least five of nine known murders in the Vancouver area.

Two youngsters are still still missing and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police believe they are dead.

The dead and missing youngsters range in age from nine to seventeen years.

The nine bodies were found nude and had either been bludgeoned or stabbed to death.

The search is continuing this weekend.

For the first time, the RCMP confirmed they were looking at only one man.

Yes.

What the police weren't divulging was that their case on Olson was weak.

Other than Judy's name in a notebook found in the car, the RCMB had very little physical evidence to tie him to all the murders.

If Olson walked again, it would be a grave humiliation.

The Mounties and prosecutors could forge ahead with what they had on Olson for Judy's murder, with maybe a slim chance of conviction.

Or they could keep and press Olson for as long and as far as the law would allow allow to see if he would break.

But in my opinion, they were on the back foot.

Later, Peter and I poured over the interrogation transcripts.

Olson is combative, snapping back at Corporal Fred Maley as accusations mount.

You've got your ass up against the wall, Maley tells Olson.

Olson denies and dismisses, but you can tell that he knows.

This time, he might be caught for good.

It's also clear that the investigators didn't really employ any special tactics in dealing with a psychopathic serial killer.

They were talking to him like he'd robbed a bank, which makes sense, given the time.

South of the border, there was a gush of research on serial killers.

The FBI's Behavioral Science Unit had recently completed their database of serial offenders.

But this this new science of profiling probably hadn't made it yet to the BC detachments of the RCMP.

Apart from the number of victims, 11 confirmed, the Mounties didn't appear to approach Olson much differently from a garden variety criminal.

Olson confounded these investigators, but in the end, it was Olson who gave them an avenue out.

The thing is, one, I put a deal together for $100,000.

He got fuck all until I got that money up front.

They got nothing, absolutely nothing.

They didn't know nothing, right?

This is what he proposed.

The RCMP would pay Olson $30,000 for evidence on the four bodies they'd found before his arrest.

And for each murder scene he identified or body he could help them locate, he would receive an additional $10,000.

A full confession was a given.

Corporal Melee would later tell my grandfather, Pete, that at first, they had no intention of paying up.

I mean, just try and scam him.

That was the original thought.

Once the lawyers got involved, we said,

it's right out of our hands now.

Those lawyers included Bob Shantz.

Once the Crown Prosecutor when Olson was a prison snitch, Shantz was now acting as Olson's defense lawyer.

He'd testify in a court case that he advised Olson the police were making promises they wouldn't keep.

When Olson first told him the police were offering to pay $10,000 a body, Shantz says he dismissed it as a bunch of baloney.

Later, Olson called to say he was going to go out with the RCMP and locate the bodies.

Shant said he was angry.

He told Olson, Cliffey, when you get to the end and you have $100,000 in your hand, they'll kick you in the ass and take the money back.

Former RCMP investigator Glenn Woods will admit he wasn't in the room where the big decisions were made, but he knows his colleagues didn't have a strong hand.

Many of those victims would not have been found.

And I'm not sure what the conviction rate would have been on most of those cases either.

There wasn't a lot of forensic evidence.

It wasn't DNA like I did.

There is today.

I think it would have been hard pressed to put that case together and be guaranteed that he would go to jail.

Like I said, I wasn't at the level where I was being consulted or aware of what was going on at that level.

That was above my pay grade at that time.

Someone who was consulted, to my shock, was reporter John Daly.

I got a phone call from an official in the criminal justice system.

who said to me, we need to have an off-the-record chat.

And they said, okay,

what if we had to pay Clifford Robert Olson $10,000, a body, to recover the bodies?

What would the public's reaction be?

And I said, well, it'll be outrageous.

It'll be, you know, over the top.

People will be furious.

I said,

well, we're in a very difficult position.

And I said, well, you know, if you get the bodies and you get the evidence and he takes you to the bodies, because these bodies were in the middle of no place, strung out around all over the lower mainland, right?

I said, you know, I think for the family's sake, having interviewed a number of the families, if you can get their kids' remains back and get the evidence you need to make this ironclad, I said, I think it's worth it.

And they did it.

With the approval of the province's attorney general, the cash for bodies deal came to be.

The money was to be put in a trust for his wife Joan and baby son.

But the way he'd talk about the deal with me during our phone calls, Olson saw the deal as a triumph for himself.

Only himself.

I'm streetwife, okay?

I'm no dummy.

You understand?

I know all the angles.

And everything I do, I pay for myself.

Everything is for Clifford Robert Olson's game.

Fuck the next person.

In a gesture of either giddiness that he'd pulled this off or to embarrass the police further, he provided details about one additional murder as a freebie.

The Mounties finally got their man.

But at what cost?

My grandfather Pete would often remark to me that the money the RCMP paid Olson was the best $100,000 they'd ever spent.

And he probably knew some things most wouldn't because Pete had no problem getting the RCMP to talk.

We were less fortunate.

Glenn Woods was the only one who would talk to us.

Ed Drozda hung up on me as soon as I mentioned what I was researching.

When Arlene got another ex-RCMP investigator on the line, he refused to be interviewed for fear of backlash from former colleagues.

And we think we know why.

The RCMP hoped the cash for bodies deal would be seen as something to be celebrated.

In reality, the deal caused such outrage and damage that some in this country have never healed

and never will.

I mean, he paid death dogs.

It's sickening.

Meanwhile, these families, including mine, were just trying to put our lives back together, trying to find strength to carry on

now the whole thing is this people are overlooking the fact that the families were in distress in this area the ones who have their children that were lost and have not been found for many weeks and months so the pressure was tremendous now how do you solve a crime and get it over with

what kind of an explosion did it make do you remember

what kind of explosion was hiroshima Nagasaki?

That's next time on Calls from a Killer.

Calls from a Killer was written and produced by me, Arlene Binan, Nathaniel Frum, and senior producers Ashley Mack and Andrew Freeson.

Mixing and sound design by Evan Kelly.

Emily Cannell is our digital producer.

Additional audio from BC TV.

Executive producers are Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak.

Tanya Springer is the senior manager.

And Arif Norani is the director of CBC Podcasts.

Tune in next week for an all-new episode of Calls from a Killer from CBC's Uncover.

Or you can binge the whole series by subscribing to our True Crime Premium channel on Apple Podcasts.

Just click on the link in the show description.

For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca/slash podcasts.