S34 EP5: Jesse James | Dirtbag Climber

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This is a CBC podcast.

It's right before Christmas 2002.

Davis Hawk's parents are still hearing from their 24-year-old son on a regular basis,

mostly through email.

Britt, your mother and I were wondering what you might like for Christmas besides a Viper.

Let us know if you have some ideas.

He might be known as Davis to his colleagues at Amazing Internet Products, where, together, they are becoming one of the most prolific spammers in America.

But he's always going to be Brit to his parents, a big kid who still wants a Dodge Viper from Santa.

Hi, nonfiction books are always good.

We've read hundreds of emails between Hawk and his parents.

They are all part of evidence compiled by America Online and make up a portion of their multi-million dollar civil lawsuit against him.

The emails offer a little glimpse into Hawk's personal life.

They talk about chess and tennis, and he's open with his parents about the spamming business.

Business is going slow this month, by design.

I'm saving all my efforts for Labor Day weekend when I'm going to send almost 1 million emails.

I expect a return of $50,000 to $75,000.

In other correspondence, his parents complain about the calls they are still getting about him.

Some callers ask to speak to Davis.

Others are about his student loans.

College was a rip-off.

Taught me zero practical knowledge, and I am never paying those loans back.

But it was the email about what books he wanted for Christmas that stopped us in our tracks.

Here are the topics I like to read about and the titles I already have.

The FBI, the CIA, and the NSA.

Hawk tells his parents that he's into books about theoretical astrophysics and that he already has all the books by Stephen Hawking and Julian Barber.

But there, on this list, made almost a decade before he fled to Squamish, B.C., he tells his parents what he's been reading about lately:

Billy the Kid, a dynasty of western outlaws, and

Jesse James.

The 19th century cowboy outlaw and the last pseudonym Hawk ever takes on.

When we started this podcast, we wondered what Hawk saw in Jesse James.

Why use that name with all the connotations it comes with?

What romantic notions did Hawk connect with?

The outlaw life?

The nomadic nature of being on the run?

Surviving and thriving on the edges of society?

After all we've learned, The answer to this question seems very clear now.

It was all of that.

In January 2016, the year before his death, Jesse James wrote this on Facebook.

The most remarkable feature of our world is that night follows day.

From this certain fact, we know that there was a beginning, and from this certain fact, we know likewise there will be an end.

The question is:

what kind of end?

I'm Steven Chua, and this is the finale of Dirtbag Climber from CBC's Uncovered, episode 5, Jesse James.

Can you tell me where we are, what we're looking at right now?

Okay, so we're in Squamish downtown.

There's Mount Garibaldi right north, right in the distance over there.

We're passing by a sprinter van, very squamish here.

I'm sure that there are like at least two people living in it,

as one does during the high season, which we are in.

I still live in squamish.

I never knew Jesse, or Davis Hawk, or Britt Greenbaum, but I do understand the pull this place had on him.

It's got me too.

You could take a five-minute drive from your doorstep and suddenly be in the middle of a forest staring up a giant granite monolith.

Nice, dude.

Rapid development is making it feel more suburban, but there are still times when it feels wild and full of possibilities.

You could meet old climbers who go by names that sound like the stuff of 80s action movies like King Canal or Heavy Duty.

That person who quit his job to live in a van who insists that everyone calls him Matthew McClimerhee.

Totally normal here.

There's room for all sorts of beautiful weirdness.

This place makes you feel like you're on an adventure.

And it has a history of accepting strange, colorful characters.

I can totally understand how someone could arrive in town with the idea of writing a new chapter to their life.

When I wanted to restart my career in journalism, it's where I wrote mine.

And it's where Jesse wrote his last.

In the years that Jesse called Squamish home, he built a reputation as a strong climber, a seriously smart man who rubbed certain people the wrong way.

And while many heard that he was rich, he chose to live in his truck.

It was in that truck that his life ended on June 14th, 2017, off the highway, up a logging road, and burned so badly that police needed to use DNA to identify him.

But there are a lot of things we don't know about Jesse's time in Squamish.

We don't even know for sure when he moved to Canada because no one named Davis Hawk or Britt Greenbaum is listed as crossing the border.

But sometime between 2006 and 2009, Jesse James set up his life in BC

because he pops up on a Squamish rock climbing forum in August 2009.

I'm in Squamish until October 1st and looking for a climbing partner, ASAP.

My skill level is novice and I just got into the sport last month.

How was a guy able to come up from the US and hide himself in plain sight in Squamish, which isn't that remote?

You know, there is an RCMP detachment there and never be found out.

Yvette Brand might just be one of CBC's most dogged and determined reporters.

And when she heard about Jesse James's life and death, she instinctively knew that there could be a lot to sink her teeth into.

So I became very intrigued and started digging around who knew this person, What were they doing in Squamish?

You know, who were they as part of the climbing community?

Every time I turn another page, he's such a chameleon.

He's this person.

He's that person.

It just became more and more interesting.

Like, how did this happen?

Who would want this person to be hurt?

And then the more that I dug, the more I realized a lot of people might want this person to be hurt.

And I mean, in your estimation, at least from your experience, are there theories that you were hearing that seemed to be more likely than others?

You know, I think when I first started looking into this, it seemed to me like everybody that first hears about this guy, someone was after his money, because as any journalist knows, follow the money, right?

And in Squamish, when it came to Jesse and his money, it was all about cryptocurrency.

But it's unclear how much information he ever shared with anybody about his keys or his crypto, or if anybody was ever part of what he did down in the U.S.

that could have come back up.

From From court records dealing with the AOL case against Hawk, we know that in the early 2000s, he started to buy gold and platinum bars with the money he made spamming.

We have receipts that he purchased $350,000 worth, but we know he had more than that.

And at some point, it's believed Jesse took that gold and maybe some of the sacks of cash he had buried over the years and moved it into crypto.

Probably around the time he moved to Squamish.

Because crypto was only just opening up at that time, time, right?

Crypto was just opening up then.

The first Bitcoin was released in 2009, and Vancouver, just down the road from Squamish, was a burgeoning hotbed for cryptocurrencies, later home to the world's first Bitcoin ATM.

And while today digital currency is fairly mainstream, back then it was very much the wild west.

Cryptocurrency is something that Jesse's dad, Hyman Greenbaum, thinks a lot about too.

Could have been somebody who was after his Bitcoin.

Hyman believes that when his son ran to Canada, he took his gold with him.

I'm pretty sure he, at some point within a year or two after that, bought quite a bit of Bitcoin, probably using money you got from the gold.

It's not a stretch to imagine that someone like Jesse, who is both comfortable on the darker side of the internet and a scammer at heart, would dive headfirst into the world of Bitcoin.

We've talked to people who have looked into Jesse's crypto activity.

We discovered that he was using all the same moves that he learned while spamming.

He would take on different aliases, create shell companies, and lie to get people's money.

You know, I was one of the few friends that maybe wasn't out for something from him.

One of the ways we know that Jesse had crypto is because he used it to buy something from this guy, Ward Jensen.

I had a rock drill, you know, for drilling holes in rocks.

And, you know, we used them for building routes.

I had one, and he was after one, so I sold it to him at the time.

You know, it was for,

oh, I think it was one Bitcoin, is what it was.

Well, at that time, it was $800.

Unfortunately, Ward told us he doesn't have that Bitcoin anymore, that he got scammed out of it a long time ago.

Digital currency still has deep and dodgy ties to the dark web, to criminality.

All things that Jesse was very used to dealing with.

I think he probably screwed the wrong people.

Hyman told us about one such person.

There was a guy in California who was a radio announcer.

I think my son was

using the

username of Michael Moriarty.

after the Sherlock Holmes villain, of course.

But there was some guy who claimed that my son stole

like, I think it was 125 Bitcoins or something like that from him.

So, I mean, there was some pretty nasty tweets.

It was on one of these websites, Bitcoin Forum, or something like that.

But

I would like to have seen that investigate a little more than it was.

Today, 125 Bitcoin is worth millions and millions of dollars.

And this is just one instance in a crypto career that spanned almost a decade.

So it's not a long shot to imagine someone who got screwed investing in one of Jesse's schemes, someone who lost enough money, that it led them to want to kill him.

I found out after I learned of his death that he had been running some Bitcoin websites.

I mean, whether they were legitimate sites or not is questionable.

Probably some of them were scams, I'm guessing.

He was clearly afraid of somebody, somebody coming for him.

I asked him, you know, who he's afraid of, and it kind of came out to the effect that, you know, he's doing some transactions with these Russians.

Yeah, I mean, my son, I'd mentioned that he was fearful of the Russian mob.

The Russian mob might seem far-fetched, but then again, so has so much of the story.

As we've established throughout this series, Jesse acted like an asshole, and that made him enemies in the real world.

But if you are an asshole on the dark web, well, you can run into people who will push back really hard.

A lot of people who get into doing crypto crimes actually originally started out doing the type of crimes that you've already talked about, just, you know, other types of internet fraud that can very easily lead you down the path of doing more crypto crimes because they tend to

give you a higher payout.

This is Jameson Lop.

He works in digital security.

But the one thing that I've learned from seeing a lot of stories of people who have been in that space is that it's dangerous, especially if you become well known in the sort of criminal underworld.

And if you have, for example, some really big scores,

you may become known in certain circles as an incredibly wealthy cyber criminal.

And then there's other types of people who roam in that criminal underworld who

their preferred means of income is to actually go and physically attack the criminals who have done very well because they know that those people are probably not going to go to law enforcement if you attack them.

So it's just, it's a dangerous world to be in.

So would being able to track Jesse's crypto activity be the key to figuring out who killed him?

His dad, Hyman, thinks it might just be.

And what I really want is for somebody who has software to read the Bitcoin blockchain to go through,

I can give you a 10-hour window of when this death was likely occurred.

I'd like a list of all the Bitcoin transactions in that 10-hour window ordered by the magnitude of Bitcoins that were transferred.

And I'd like to know were any of those accounts any of those Bitcoin wallets emptied at that time

and

have any of those been accessed or not accessed since that time?

A version of this kind of investigation is possible, but it's costly and very complicated because of the anonymous nature of Bitcoin.

In fact, Jesse may have also run a website that helped launder crypto, making the search even harder.

Let's see, I think one of them was called

BitLaunder.

We spoke to someone who has been working on tracking Jesse's online aliases and scams.

They believe with a high degree of confidence that throughout the course of his crypto career, $2.5 billion in Bitcoin was processed through wallets associated with businesses and aliases they think were Jesse James's.

Although, the true scale of his business operations is likely much higher.

We tried to ask the RCMP about any possible links between his crypto business and his death.

It was clear that this person lived a deliberately private life, like living off the grid, so to speak.

So the investigative theories were wide open.

Sergeant Frida Fong, media relations for the Integrated Homicide Investigation Team in Vancouver, unsurprisingly didn't tell us much.

And so part of that,

well, firstly, we had to verify the person's identity and then follow up on any motivation behind the individual's past.

Because the investigation is ongoing, I I can't really speak to what those theories were,

but it was wide open.

Sergeant Fong told us that despite all these years of investigation, there are still no suspects.

Jesse's dad isn't just disappointed that there are no suspects today, he's disappointed with the way the whole case is being handled.

I mean, I've given the IHIT team quite a few tips.

There was a tweet on Twitter that we found that was awfully suspicious, but they don't seem to follow through on investigating them.

There are no suspects today.

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You know, to be honest, I didn't feel comfortable going home.

I have a discharge paperwork that's like an inch thick, gives me all of his prescriptions, but it's still, I'm also handing a rescue medication.

Managing my pain was never something I ever even considered.

Years before cryptocurrency became popular, he'd allegedly already stacked a Bitcoin fortune.

And before the far far right found its way back into the mainstream, Jesse had figured out how to weaponize hate and how to profit from it.

Each new identity put him a step ahead and created a new reason for someone to paint a target on his back.

So if you're looking for a motive, there's no shortage of options.

The question is:

which,

if any, of Jesse's past lives caught up to him?

Let's start with the most dangerous chapter of all.

Do you

still hold the same views now that you did when you were, you know, at Wofford College?

By far, his most incendiary chapter was his time as a neo-Nazi, one that he told journalist Brian McWilliams that he had let go.

The answer to that is no.

Do I find those views,

why don't you ask another question?

Okay, the answer to that question is no.

Now you ask, do you find those views reprehensible?

The answer to that is no.

Do you regret what you did?

The answer to that is no.

So those are your answers.

Now you want me to elaborate?

Yeah.

All right.

I feel that my philosophy has matured.

See, back then, I believed what I said, which was the white race is superior and blah, blah, blah, and you should get rid of all the other races.

But see, I now have philosophical, serious philosophical objections to that viewpoint because I'm a positivist.

Whether he believed his racist rhetoric or not, the question now is, did it lead to his murder?

Did someone put two and two together and decide the world was better with one less Nazi in it?

Or did a disgruntled neo-Nazi, still angry about discovering that Davis Hawk was once Britt Greenbaum, find him on Facebook 18 years later and make the trip to Squamish?

It took police three years to connect Jesse to Davis Wolfgang Hawk, and even we've had trouble finding photos of him online.

So it seems pretty unlikely that after all these years, someone from that chapter would hunt him down.

But what if Hawk was into something else?

She almost caught him one time on a drop.

I'm pretty sure he was getting money through the cocaine, powdered cocaine trade.

I almost got him once.

Richard Banks, the cop from South Carolina, told us that he suspected that Jesse was dealing drugs.

And Squamish and the neighboring ski town of Whistler have a very active drug scene.

But...

Like, I've never seen him do drugs.

This is Jackie, a friend of Jesse's.

Like, I never even see him smoke marijuana, which is unusual, you know, in a climate community.

In Squamish, Jesse was all about supplements, eating healthy, and living forever.

And we've not been able to find anyone but Detective Banks who connected Hawk to the drug trade.

So maybe it was a spammer that killed him.

I mean, I know he pissed some people off.

Under the alias Dave Bridger, Jesse would rip off people's website copy and steal email addresses.

If he didn't like someone, he would redirect an avalanche of spam to their inbox.

But I don't think it would ever rise to the level of anything that would, you know,

require, you know, putting a gun to his head kind of thing.

No way.

Then there is the theory that has to do with this book on picking up women, women, Psychology of Seduction, that was brought up to us by AOL lawyer Jennifer Archie.

Plagiarist Jesse James was murdered by Brazilian psychologists.

You haven't heard this?

Never heard that.

The Brazilian thing, bro.

Never heard that.

Oh, yeah, he

published this book, The Psychology of Seduction, Master.

Yeah, right?

Okay.

This relates to a copyright.

He stole all of that,

like on the on the internet.

It's a long, complicated, and truthfully absurd theory, but the story goes that allegedly Jesse plagiarized the book from a Brazilian psychologist.

That made them so mad that they put out a hit on Jesse.

The theory also involves a fake literary award, an individual named Professor X, and according to this unbelievable account, Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos covered the whole thing up.

With a life like Jesse's, it's easy to dream up a multiverse of theories as to who might have killed him.

But what if the answer is a lot less sexy and a lot closer to home?

I think that somebody who didn't like him, very likely a climber, took a gun out and shot him.

This again is Jesse's climbing friend, Jackie.

He's the one that told me about the online pushback against Jesse's trolling, a behavior that Jesse indulged his whole life.

They got angry at him, and there are some people who were very angry at him, even before all the stuff came out, and they shot him.

That's my theory.

And I think it was, I think it was a climber, right?

Or somebody, not a professional climber, somebody who climbs and knew him in the climbing community at that time.

We heard this simple theory time and time again from his high school classmate, Michael DeLuca.

No, it absolutely doesn't surprise me that he provoked someone to murder.

I bet he provoked lots of people, and whoever killed him was, you know, first in line.

To anti-racism journalist Mark Potok.

You know, very often people like that do wind up dead.

Throughout this series, we've cataloged the many ways Jesse James was a self-centered asshole.

From big things like propagating racist ideas to smaller things like harassing a teacher with Robocalls.

And when you add it all up, we think it points to what happened on the night of June 14th, 2017.

You know, the thing is, I don't believe that strong characters can be heavily influenced.

A lot of people tried to influence me when I was a kid.

Obviously, when parents, you know, try to influence you, correct?

The police.

Government tries to influence you, media tries to influence you.

I'm pretty resistant to it and always have been.

You asked me if I had a role model or somebody that

shaped me into what I am, and the answer is no, I shaped myself.

Probably sometime around high school, Andrew Britt Greenbaum started cultivating a skill that would serve him well throughout the rest of his life, but it would also be his eventual downfall.

He would find ways to influence people and exploit their vulnerabilities for his personal gain.

He was an influencer before social media ever became a thing.

First, as Britt Greenbaum, he became the top dog at the chess club.

He relished his ability to dominate people with his intellect.

I played for fun, and he played for something else.

As Davis Hawk, he made himself something of a leader among a fringe group of white supremacists, and he used his position to suck money out of their pockets.

I can practically hear him laughing his way to the bank.

Then, as Dave Bridger, thanks to the dawn of spam email, he made millions exploiting the insecurities of men.

But no one was exempt from this.

He scammed everyone.

So who tried to sue you?

Oh, I don't know.

I've been through so many lawsuits over my career, it's hard to count.

Finally, as Jesse James, he tried to fashion himself as a dirtbag climber philosopher king.

At this point, he could have lived a happy, quiet life as a climbing bum.

But his need to be the top dog always got the better of him.

He was a gigantic internet troll who rubbed people the wrong way with his shitposting.

Getting some people very mad.

When people questioned his claims of wealth, he threw wads of cash around.

The next day he came in with $100 bills.

That may have attracted a lot of attention from the wrong kind of people.

So yes, someone certainly did kill Jesse James.

But what made it possible?

All we can say for sure is that it was because of his recurring pattern of hubris, influence, and exploitation.

See ya, I'm also a megalomaniac, okay?

I'm an egomaniac and a megalomaniac.

So it's hard for me to want to emulate anybody or want to be like anybody because

I just, I think I'm like almost gone.

So it's hard for someone to have any influence over me because I don't want to be like anybody else.

The South Carolina cop, Richard Banks, who'd investigated a lot of stuff over his career, knew that this kind of behavior has an expiration date.

Well, I'm surprised it took that long.

All right, well, this is the

Grove Creek.

And yeah,

this is where the vehicle was parked.

The police have been tight-lipped about their investigation, but here's what we do know.

We know that Jesse's death is classified as a homicide.

We know that days earlier, Jesse's truck had been inscribed with the words, Douche King, on it.

That on the evening of June 13th, 2017, Jesse and his partner Eva saw each other at their usual spot at Brome Creek near Cat Lake Campground in Squamish and then went their separate ways as they always did.

And at some point later that night, or maybe in the early morning hours, Jesse was shot and killed.

His badly burned remains were found early on the morning of the 14th inside his destroyed truck.

I think he might have been shot

down there, and they drove the vehicle up here and torched it.

We also know that the truck was found not near Brougham Creek, where he usually camped, but in another location.

He wasn't camped here.

No, he never camped here.

He was always camped there.

But that's about all we know.

We don't know if where he was found was where he was killed.

We don't know what else was found in the truck or if anything was missing.

We don't even know if his body was in the front or back seat.

We don't know what kind of gun he was killed with.

I don't know if you've heard this, and I probably shouldn't spread it around, but I heard that they, I mean, they have

they did do some ballistics.

He was shot with a rifle.

This information from Hyman is new to us, and we can't confirm it.

The police have never been forthcoming about these sorts of details.

We can only treat this information as Hyman's speculation.

But when we mentioned a rifle to CBC's Yvette brand, she found it insightful.

That just screams local.

That's a totally different thing than somebody coming up to whack somebody.

Like a dumb question, but like, is there...

is there a reason for that?

Are there...

That's just my theory.

I mean, that would be something something people would have in Squamish really easily.

And why, if you were some kind of professional hit person, would you.

Like, it's just so messy and noisy and big and heavy to carry.

I don't know.

I'm not a cop, but it wouldn't be how I'd do hits.

Hyman has the same theory.

If somebody hired a hitman to find him, you wouldn't think they'd use a rifle.

No.

So it could have been.

Somebody with a grudge against him.

As I mentioned, I think some of these websites

he was running may have been scams and he may have scammed people.

I'm not a cop, but from what we've heard, there appears to be a strong possibility the killer was someone from Squamish,

or at least someone with local knowledge.

It's an unsettling thought.

Squamish is growing, but it's still a small community.

You can run into the mayor at the grocery store.

You can take a walk anywhere, and there's a good chance you'll bump into someone you know.

It's disturbing to think the person you pass by on the sidewalk might be the one who did it.

But there is one more thread I need to tug on.

I mean, there's also another crazy theory where people actually think he faked his own death.

No,

that's one too.

Like, some people thought he faked his own death.

Friends and colleagues of Jesse's from his spamming days have talked about this idea since his death was first reported.

They've said he spoke about disappearing, about running to a faraway place where he could really hide.

You know, he said he's going to disappear.

He left a book here, I think, called Hide Your Assets and Disappear.

A place like Vanuatu, a string of white sand archipelagos in the southwestern Pacific Ocean.

Vanuatu is remote, mountainous, and it came up a few times in our reporting.

It's perfect for climbing, covered with tropical rainforests, and is a hub for money laundering.

Not everyone believes this, obviously.

His dad told us that Jesse hated the heat and that the climate in Squamish was more his speed.

And his old climbing friend Jackie totally dismisses the idea.

No, not after, like, you know, it's.

it's.

I think that if it was faked, he wouldn't be able to resist coming back out after a few years and saying, fuck you, suckers.

That's the character.

That's the character, right?

And then he'd have a big laugh.

There's another, less exotic but plausible explanation for Jesse's murder.

And it doesn't involve the internet.

It just comes down to cold, hard cash.

Could have been a random robbery type of event.

Eva said that, you know, he might have kept a couple of thousand or so in the

GMC Yukon that he was living out of.

So it could have been just some sort of random robbery at him.

We have at least two sources who describe Jesse flaunting cash in public.

What if someone knew about that cash and knew where Jesse parked?

Knew that he was alone and the cars running by the highway would muffle the sound of a gun going off.

However it ended and whoever ended it, Jesse's life and of course his death has left its mark.

Those like me who only knew him by reputation

were left with mostly questions.

Not just about who ultimately killed him, but also

who was he?

A man who shapeshifted so often, it's easy to get caught up in the chase.

But for those who were close to him,

those who loved him, they are left with just a whole.

His parents, who knew very well that their son lived a shady life, loved him and waited for years to hear from him again.

We haven't seen Britt in months, so I'm answering the phone now in hopes that it's Britt.

Even Jesse was was aware that he'd made life hard on them.

I think they'd prefer if I was a

doctor or a lawyer, but

I think they're happy I made a little bit of fucking scratch.

I'm sure they think it's a hell of a lot better than what I was doing before.

Today,

his father still waits for justice.

What did you think when you heard about how he had

his life ended?

Well, I mean, I wanted to know

how and who.

Yeah.

I mean, I still want to know who.

His climbing friends, who never knew Davis Hawk, the far-right neo-Nazi who spewed hate, they're left to wonder if they can truly mourn a man like that.

Can they miss Jesse James while at the same time turn their backs on Davis Hawk?

And his partner, Eva McLennan?

Yvette Brand is one of the few reporters to get Eva to talk about Jesse on the record.

This is from one of her reports for CBC News.

Well, he had a lot of secrets, and I was evidently shielded from a lot, but

I can't say what drives somebody to murder.

During their time together, Jesse only showed Eva certain parts of his past.

She didn't know that he was a neo-Nazi.

She didn't know he was a world-class spammer.

All she knew was that he made a lot of money in the crypto world

and that together they lived to climb

and that she loved him.

It was

sickening to learn of his past as

a hate monger, but

overall a blessing to connect with his father and with some of his old-time friends.

So I'm glad for the truth to come out.

In the interview with Yvette, Eva is wearing a raccoon hat, like the one Davey Crockett wore.

And I said, did he leave you?

You know, you say he has millions.

Did he leave you any money?

Did he take care of you?

And she laughed and she touched her raccoon hat and she said, He left me this hat.

She kept saying over and over to me, I'm the other half of him that they didn't kill, and he will be with me for life.

He was certainly a positive influence in my life.

He's with me for life.

Yeah.

A year and a half before his death, Jesse James wrote this on Facebook.

I've been a very lucky, lucky boy in all areas of my life.

Hope I haven't used up all my luck, because I'm going to need a lot more of it to make these big dreams happen.

So, the question we're all left with is,

did Jesse's luck run out or was it ever about luck at all?

Because as Jesse or Britt or Davis, he had a choice about the way he walked through the world and how he treated people.

And the choices he made were the choices he lived with and most likely caused his death.

All I care about is myself.

I'm highly narcissistic.

So that's the answer.

The answer is I'm a positivist and I'm an extreme narcissist.

I only care about things that impact me.

Dirtbag Climber is a production of Lark Productions and Kelly and Kelly for CBC podcasts.

The show is hosted by me, Stephen Chua.

It's written and produced by Kathleen Goldhar and Chris Kelly, with additional writing from me, Stephen Chua.

The showrunner is Kathleen Goldhar.

Producers are Karen Bracken and Tina Apostolopoulos Moniz.

Associate producer Hadil Abdel Nabi.

Sound design by Paul Tedeskini and Chris Kelly.

Tamara Black is our coordinating producer.

Original music by Chris Kelly.

Our senior producer is Jeff Turner.

Our digital producer is Rosh Nien Nair.

The series was developed by Ainsley Vocal, Gene Parsons, and Kristen Boychuk.

Additional reporting by Yvette Brend.

Our podcast art was designed by Good Tape Studio.

Our cross promo producer is Amanda Cox.

Our video producers are Evan Agard, Tamina Aziz, and John Lee.

Production support from Dave Schumka.

Research by Sally Webster and Olivia Fellows.

Fact-checking by Alexis Screen and Nikki Menfredi.

Additional voices by David Patrick Fleming, Pippa Johnstone, Nathan Howe, Ryan Beale, Mark Chavez, Chris Kelly, Kathleen Goldhar.

For Kelly and Kelly, Executive Producer Chris Kelly.

Executive Producer Pat Kelly.

Business Affairs Producer Lauren Berkovich.

For Lark Productions, executive producer Aaron Haskett, VP Business Affairs, Tex Antonucci.

For CBC, executive producers are Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak.

Tanya Springer is the senior manager, and R.

F.

Norani is the director, and Leslie Merklinger is the executive director of CBC Podcasts.

For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca/slash podcasts.