”Snuffing out the danger", pre-match strolling & drinking the opposition's water: The listeners' loves & hates

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I'm sorry, you can sit there and look and play with all your silly machines as much as you like.

Is Gas going on have a crack?

He is, you know.

Oh, I think!

Brilliant!

Jeez!

Done it!

Absolutely incredible!

He launched himself six feet into the crowd and Kung Fu kicked a supportler who was

without a shadow of a doubt giving him lip.

Oh, I say!

It's amazing!

He does it tame and tame and tame again.

Break up the music!

Charge a glass!

This nation is going to dance all night!

The threshold for showing someone the latest score from a game on your phone without saying a word, the various reaction times of fans behind a goal observed during a slow-motion replay, the moral seesaw of witnessing players drinking from opposition water bottles, the subtle elements of the phrase he knows what he's doing there, and the alarmingly low bar for things that make it into a centre-back's pre-match TV analysis montage.

Brought to your ears by Goal Hanger Podcasts.

This is Football Clichés and your Mezza Haaland Dicks.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Football Clichés.

I'm Adam Hurry.

This is the listener's mezza Haaland Dicks for March.

Here with me to field your footballing fascinations and irritations are Charlie Eccleshare and David Walker.

How you doing?

Very well, thank you.

Good.

Excellent.

A few matters to take care of first though.

Thanks to Sam Craigie, Matthew Garner, Arvid Munksgaard and Rasmus Licker Therkelson for explaining the Danish scoring system for player ratings.

It is derived Charlie from the school grading system in Denmark.

The 12-point system or the seven-point grading scale they call it in fact.

So, I've been sent the full breakdown of what each score actually means in Danish schools.

So, grade 12, the top one, is for an excellent performance displaying a high level of command of all aspects of the relevant material with no or only a few minor weaknesses.

So, you know, you're looking at a 10 out of 10 performance on in a newspaper player rating in the UK, I guess.

Yeah, this is really weird because there's 12, it goes 12, 10, 7, 4, 2, 0, minus 3.

So, you can't get an 11 or an 8 or a 9 or a 5 or a 6.

Nope.

This is, yeah, there's a lot

to get used to with this.

It's a big jump from 7 to 10.

I think that's the real key point, isn't it, Dave, for your academic career, let alone your footballing one.

Yeah, so

what's the explanation for a 7?

For a good performance displaying good command of the relevant material, but also some weaknesses.

Showed some good touches, but faded late on.

Yeah, okay.

Nice.

But for a minus three, Charlie, it's for a performance which is unacceptable in all respects.

That's getting hauled off, isn't it?

Yeah, that's really good because that is both like schoolmasterly language and it's also ex-player who's just so furious at the state of this performance from the club or from the individual player.

You can see a manager saying that.

Definitely, Charlie.

I thought his performance was unacceptable in all respects.

In all respects.

Yeah.

Well, no, I think they'd say it more about their own team.

Departments.

Yeah, I don't think, like, I think to call out an individual player is more, you know, a Roy Keene or Gary Neville who's just so annoyed at a Man United player for performing so Anthony for performing so bad.

It's like the sort of thing like a Football League manager who's gone postal will say.

You know, when Troy Deany was at Forest Green for a week, he kind of basically dug out all of his players in this manner.

Every now and again, you get a manager who just goes, fuck it.

I'm just going to go to town on them after the game.

I don't think it's outlandish for a player who's putting in a minus three performance to be singled out for it.

Like, even if it's done in a semi-constructive way, they're going to get called out for it for sort of long-term character building purposes.

It's brutal, though, if you're a kid.

If you're a school kid and you get a minus three.

Awful.

Is that all?

That's so harsh.

Reminds me of getting an N in my A-level mocks once.

Didn't even know N existed.

What does it stand for?

Not acceptable or something.

I don't know.

Listeners, I bounced back.

That's the main thing.

Final note on this.

Matt Livesey writes in, Dave, and says, as a Brit living in Denmark, when I ask native Danes why they have this bizarre system, they just shrug as if it's the most natural thing in the world.

Yeah, fair play.

Yeah, can't question i mean i guess it's like being asked like oh why do you have a lettering system to grade your exams you just

yes how we've always done it oh dear fair enough um right now next up sam tai writes in and said just had a good chuckle i'd never asked my parents what my first word was and i'm delighted to learn it was ball i feel like the cliche child prodigy footballer that never was

um oh yeah charlie i mean the classic sort of situation here is that you know a footballer always had a ball at their feet at the age of three But if their first word was ball, that would be better, wouldn't it?

Because I mean, it's in their DNA.

Yeah, although I don't know if that's the most kind of cliché's DNA.

If your first word was like discourse or narrative or maligned or something like that, I feel that would be ball is a bit too general for me.

Oh, okay.

It feels like it's a quite, could be quite a common first word or early word.

You know, there's always like little balls knocking around, aren't there, for babies and stuff.

Yes, it's quite cheap, it's quite easy to pronounce, to say, yeah.

And Bull could also be a player.

You could attribute that to a really good player's first word was Bull.

Whereas I feel like a more football linguistic specific thing would pertain more to clichés.

I'd be much more impressed if Sam's first phrase was counter-pressing.

Real forward-thinking, David.

A bit of both were his first words.

I think my kid's first word was pepper.

So hopefully she's going to grow up to sort of create a program that gets syndicated to several dozen countries across the world and make a mint for our family.

No, she's just getting started early on the steak au pois.

Don't go there.

Right.

But no, Dave, you've got a Sunday league dilemma for us, apparently.

I have, yeah.

So this weekend, Sunday the 30th of March, which is also Mother's Day, by the way, as an aside, I don't know if you ever had this, but...

Always a real ask to get a full team out on Mother's Day.

And it annoys me so much every year.

Just why?

Just have, just don't go home to see your mother on Sunday.

And if they're in London, just have lunch with them in the afternoon.

I'd say, so

you should budget, Charlie, for losing a good 10%, 10 to 15% of your squad on Mother's Day for Sunday League, right?

Yeah, I was thinking

you'd expect to lose a couple.

I do sort of know what you mean, Dave, but then maybe, you know, my parents live in London, so it's slightly different.

But I don't remember it being such a thing.

I think we talked about this last year.

That's not my actual dilemma.

That's just

an annoying addition to the scenario.

So we've got a semi-final on Sunday in the Donovan Thomas Cup.

No one's sure who Donovan Thomas is.

I was going to say, was he an administrator?

We're not sure.

We can't find him.

Canadian Sprinter?

Yeah, record holder in 1984.

And we've slightly bizarre situation.

We find ourselves in the semi-final after having a bye, receiving a bye for the quarterfinals because our two possible opponents have both been kicked out of the tournament for having their match abandoned in in the last 16.

So here we are in the semi-finals, an opportunity to get to a final, which they don't come around often.

And our opponents, Clapham Chiefs, despite the name, they don't play in Clapham.

It's a home tie for us.

But they have got in early and they're playing mind games with me already.

They've sent a very polite email suggesting that we have the game at their home pitch in Barnes, West London instead, because it's a nicer pitch.

They played on Clapham Common last week and it wasn't very nice.

The pitch was terrible.

But I'm not having it.

It's our home tie.

I want to play in our home ground.

I want the pitch to be shit.

The better the pitch, the worse we are as a team.

We're like Cambridge United

from the early 90s.

John Beck.

Yeah, we've got a big affable striker up front.

He's our Spike is our Deon Dublin figure.

And yeah, I don't, yeah, I just want to go back to him and say, sorry, lads, I know I know the pitch is shit, but no, we're at home.

It's a very, very cheeky request.

Loved the quip in the Ripplesdale Rovers WhatsApp group calling them MK Chiefs.

Disgusting.

I played it, Barnes.

It's a good pitch.

Fair play to them.

I was going to say, is the dilemma that there might be some players who are like, oh, it would be quite novelty to have a semi-final and a good pitch.

And a good pitch is always fun to play at.

Yeah, I just think...

It's like moving it to Wembley, isn't it?

We don't actually have an amazing home record this season, to be fair.

but i do i do just feel more comfortable on the muddy probably quite hard surface now uh down at clapham common smaller pitch it will suit us better

they're a league above us we've got to try and do everything we can they've given you an edge as well because they've suggested they don't really fancy it there

so like that's something to lean into as well why is your home form so bad is it because you know if you start slowly the crowd get on top of you like what is it

we we've burnt through the winnable home games we had earlier in the season we we just we weren't ready we were we went into this season undercooked and we lost a few home games that we should have won early doors and then we had all the good teams who beat us at home but by the time we got our act together we started winning loads of games away oh god and you throw in mother's day as well i mean you're like a manager berating fifa for the unrelenting schedule are you

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Still up in the air air as to where England will play when they go to Andorra in June.

Some suggestion they may well play their game in Espanol.

Look, we've all been there, Charlie.

It's happened to all of us.

I did think that in the moment hearing that, I thought, oh, that's,

and especially because he's so the kind of guy who would be called out for that thing.

I think there's already quite a lot of suspicion around him, and that's not going to help with the pedants.

Stupid foreign countries and their clubs that aren't based on exact geographical places, Dave.

It's not helpful.

Yeah.

I think, I mean, there's no chance that he doesn't know because it's just a, you know, he said in rather than at, which is, you know, unfortunate for these purposes.

But commentators, let me tell you, like any commentator, co-commentator, or anyone who's involved in the broadcast of football will be refreshing the fixture page daily to find out when that game is announced so they can book their hotels and get it all sorted.

Similar to you in that regard, I think, Adam.

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Welcome back to Football Clichés.

It's time for the listeners' Mezza Harlan dicks for March.

You have shared some of your niche footballing fascinations and irritations, the things that float your boat or get your goat.

Charlie, I noticed a tweet this week from Fesshole, the anonymous

sort of, let's say, fetishes confessional Twitter account.

And it says, one of my favourite things to do while watching the footy is to see who has the fastest reaction in the crowd through the replay when a goal is scored or missed, but it's too nerdy to tell anyone about it.

Funnily enough, we may have more on that shortly.

So, it's good to see, good to see Cliche's culture pervading society.

It's a very good one.

Everything apart from footy is spot on, that spot on indeed.

Yeah, we'll get onto that in a moment.

Let's kick off our listeners' fascinations for March with this from Dan Moore.

This is the specific act of somebody presenting a phone screen to their friend, which is the international symbol for the fact that there has been a shock or an upset somewhere in the football universe.

So I noticed this tonight when I was watching Fleetwood vs.

Wimbledon for my sins, and the Champions League was happening at the same time.

Now, a man about three or four rows in front of me presented his phone to his friend with no communication.

And I could just about make out the Celtic logo, which says to me that there was definitely some kind of upset happening, which then led me to Google the score for myself to find out that Celtic were 1-0 up against Bayer Munich, which is indeed a shock.

I did the exact same.

I then got the score up on my phone, showed it to my brother, who then was in complete disbelief as well that this was happening.

Really, really weird convention.

And I was wondering what the threshold is for an upset to just be presented with no words.

I think I do this in the pub as well when you might be in a pub that's maybe not got the game on or you're in conversation and you will just get a shocking result up on your screen and just place it in front of your friend, which is, again, the international symbol for the fact that there is an upset going on somewhere in the world.

This is really nicely observed, Charlie, because the crucial aspect here is the unspokenness of it.

Just showing your phone to someone.

I think this is quite a universal thing.

Like, you could be showing them a message from somebody else and they'll go, oh, yeah.

A classic would be you're out and someone's texting and saying, oh, sorry, lads, I can't make it.

And you're just so annoyed.

You're not even going to say anything.

You're just going to show the message to someone.

They go, no, fuck's sake.

I mean, it makes me think there's that famous uh george w bush picture where he finds out about 9-11 and his chief of staff just sort of uh whispers in his ear about the second attack wasn't expecting this yeah but is it it's a i mean i know that is spoken but it's the kind of like you you you receive it the phone and there is this sort of un you sort of have this unspoken look united are two kneel down mr president yeah

but if we if we drill down really deep into this dave um if you're the shower of the score on your phone the showey has to take a good, I don't know, 1.8 seconds to kind of, first of all, focus on your phone.

They have to really settle themselves and go, okay, what?

And then you're watching them compute it.

And it's really nice to watch them go, oh, oh, wow.

Yeah.

I think I've definitely done this.

I think I've been the shower and the showey.

And I do think when I've been the shower, I don't think I'm always silent.

I think sometimes I'll just, you know, say a couple of words just to kind of

tee them up.

And it'll just be like,

cool.

Seen this?

That's irrelevant because they would have seen it.

I know.

You need to sort that out.

That's the sort of thing I think I would say.

Have you seen this score?

Well, what's the score in the footy?

Charlie, what do you think, as Dan Moore asks, is the threshold

score or upset-wise for showing someone silently on your phone the score from a game?

I would say the good scenario for this is probably an early goal for an unfancy team in one of the 3pm kickoffs, like like amid the flurry of action and you're you're focusing in on one goal that's gone in early someone's scoring at the etihad or something and you show it i'll show it to you and you'll go the etihad spot on it's city isn't it it's city it's city you're losing yeah because i think it's something that you'd almost forgotten was happening like the celtic example is a good one because in your head by going in with a lead i reckon you'd probably forgotten that you didn't even have in your head that that was a thing and in the same way if it is a you know you you normally your radar's on on kind of like oh i'm quite curious to find out what happens in this game because I'm sensing there could be an upset.

But some games, like you say, you know, City are at home against a lowly team in the previous few seasons.

That wouldn't even have, you wouldn't even have given that a second's thought because, of course, they're going to win that 4-0.

And then it isn't kind of like, ah, interesting.

It could also, I do also think it could be a in a two-legged scenario, a team's gone in with a big lead, and then they've conceived an early goal.

And it's like, oh, oh, hello.

Maybe,

maybe,

maybe this is worth our attention after all.

I think it quite often happens.

I mean, Dan's given two examples,

at a game, one in the pub.

I think the bar is higher in the pub, I think, for showing someone your screen.

I think at a game, it's usually the sort of thing you do when it's not a very good game.

There's quiet periods during the first half of an uninspiring championship affair.

And

the guys that sit near me, we will often...

Somebody will often have a look at their phone and if and it's usually Man City, say Man City are one or two nil down to an unfancied team, you know, Ips, which are beating Man City on 3 p.m.

on Saturday, it will get remarked upon in some way.

If not by the phone, it will be, God, have you seen a city score?

City are losing, that sort of thing.

Whereas in the pub, I sort of think it feels a little bit weirder to sort of just show someone your phone.

No, but it depends on the environment.

Like, if you're at an event where it's like clearly talking about football is probably not the thing to be doing.

Like, if you're at a gig and the Champions League game is going on or something like that, you might just show your phone because you're not going to bellow over the top of it.

I've seen it.

Yeah.

PSG have scored.

Yeah, or like, you know, you might be out with friends and kids and things, and you're like, oh, today's probably not the day, like, we, you know, for like talking about football loads, but we are obviously all interested in it and we're partly thinking about it, a sly little.

And in that instance as well,

there are some times where you're kind of like, I'm actually, I don't really care about the fact that, you know, that this game I'm not that bothered about, but you kind of, you have to do your duty and sort of do do an appropriate, like, yeah, okay,

you can just shrug it off and carry on.

Sneaking a bit of illicit football chat under the radar.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, you can't miss.

You know, your kids are talking to you, and you're kind of like, you can't just go deep into a chat about city trailing to walls.

Shut up, City, you're losing.

Well, I've shown you this.

They'll win for one anyway.

I think FA Cup third round weekend is good for this.

You know, like when a city, again, when they went 1-0 down to late and Orion early in the season, early rounds of the FA Cup when potential upsets present themselves, even if inevitably they don't follow through.

All right, lovely stuff from Dan Moore to get us started.

Next fascination comes from Kevin Caernan.

Something that's always fascinated me is part of the match day routine of away teams.

They'll arrive, you know, two and a half hours before a kick, and they'll immediately pop out in their street clothes onto the pitch and seemingly just have sort of a look around.

And I'm not really sure why.

Maybe it's to give the kitman time to set up.

The coaching staff maybe a few moments to themselves.

Maybe they're going out to inspect the pitch and see what kind of studs they want to wear.

Yeah, I don't really understand why they do it, but it's always been a little interesting.

The phenomenon, Charlie, of the pre-match walk to get your bearings in a stadium.

I feel like the bigger the game, the more important that becomes.

There must be a sports psychologist behind all of this saying, come on, just get out of there, get the grass under your feet, get an idea of the scale of the place that you're about to perform in.

You don't want to be too overawed by it.

Though the home team will do it, you'll sometimes see the home team doing a little walk as well, even though it's at a place they're very, they're very familiar with, you would have thought.

But we talked about it.

I've got that before.

It's a massive stand.

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, we talked about it before, and pertinent, Dave, to your dilemma for this weekend, if you were playing in Barnes, I'm sure you would have very much enjoyed all having a little wand around before going into the changing rooms.

Yeah, as Kevin said about deciding which boots to wear, which studs to wear, that's obviously something you would do at Sunday league level.

Oh, yeah, yeah, I think this is going to take a stud today,

this pitch.

But at Premier League level, I think you can be pretty confident of the consistency.

I don't think you're going to turn up to the Emirates one week and go, ooh, got to wear Astros.

Yeah, a bit hard today.

You always notice,

Charlie, I mean, they tend to focus on this.

I'd say the classic example of this would be an English team at the Burner Bow or something in the Champions League having their little walk about two hours before kickoff or so.

And you notice suddenly the little cliques that they're in.

You think, oh, they're walking around together.

Oh, they're their mates.

And they say, oh, why are they not?

Why are they so far apart?

Do they not like each other?

Yeah, little groups of three.

With their headphones on, not really talking to each other.

Yeah, it's a good good way to understand team dynamics.

Do you think it's just killing time?

I mean, I suppose in a way it's just been

a good

nervous energy, isn't it?

Yeah, you don't want to sit still.

You know, when we have live shows, we pop out onto the stage.

When we're sound checking, you know, we just sort of we'll have a little walk around, just get a feel for it.

But but crucially, Dad, you're absolutely right.

The the concept is the same.

I'm sure it's the same prep kind of mentality.

But crucially, I don't think we perform the same gait as a footballer walking around a pitch because it's very, very specific gait.

A footballers walking around a pitch.

It's hands in pockets.

And it's the gentlest gait possible.

You couldn't walk more leisurely than how footballers walk around a pitch two hours before a kickoff of a big game.

Yeah, yeah.

And also, Charlie, I talk about the little cliques that sort of form.

And usually they're just keeping themselves to themselves within their little cliques.

But you'll get one player who's looking up at the stand and someone's looking and going, oh, look up there.

Oh, have you seen that?

Or maybe they're waving to like a family member or something like that.

An imagined family member who's not actually there yet.

They're just practicing.

They'll be right there.

Also, when we at live shows, we are doing a sort of tech run.

Like there is a specific purpose to it, which isn't quite the same.

They're not doing like, oh, well, how would we celebrate if we scored?

Go through our celebration routine.

There's certainly some nervous energy there, that's for sure.

Do you think

it is a genuine hangover from the days when top-level pitches were quite inconsistent and could be really, really bad conditions?

So the players would genuinely have wanted to go out and see what the pitch was like.

And it's just become part of the matchday

routine from that point onwards.

Now everyone does it.

Going to be another victim of the homogeneity of football, isn't it?

Well, all the pitches are the same.

Dave and Bob going out there, lads.

You've seen every stadium there is out there, surely.

Do other sports do this?

Charlie?

American tennis players do this well there have been instances i remember like david now bandian got to wimbledon final in 2002 and he'd never because of rain he hadn't played on centre court the whole run that should never happen and it wouldn't happen now because of the roof but he got to go and hit on centre court i think on the day of the final because it was like you've never been on the court this is really unfair go and have a hit and sort of get used to the surroundings in rugby there's the captain's run which is I think it's only the day before.

And it's like the captain lead, rather than the coaches or anything, the captain leads

kind of jog around the pitch.

And I think that can I think

at times that does happen at the at the actual venue.

Formula one drivers sometimes run around the track, don't they?

The day before practice or whatever.

A little cycle round or something.

They just do.

No, I think they genuinely.

I think it's a thing.

Sometimes football teams, sometimes football teams will, particularly in Europe, they'll train at the ground the day before sometimes, won't they?

I don't know if it's convenience negative surely negates the walk then if you've done the training session

Also, it's very very closely related Dave to the hotel walk for a traveling team in Europe where they go and stretch their legs after sort of after checking in and they'll go for a long walk in their tracksuits in the local sort of area same gait hands in pockets really really strolly and you just think what are you doing there that's got to be an activation thing that's there's real sports signs going on there have you ever seen one of those in the wild?

I don't think so.

I once had a lot of people.

Well, see you in a hotel and see them.

Yeah, I saw one.

I sort of saw the back end of one, I think, when they were coming back into the hotel.

I was once,

it was in Southampton.

You said that at the cricket stadium in Southampton, which has a hotel attached to it.

It was the night before Southampton against Manchester United, and the United squad were all returning to their rooms, but all they were all, they'd clearly all been somewhere together.

And the thing I always weirdly remember about it is that every every single player was in club tracksuit, apart from, without wanting to be Graham Sunis about it, but apart from Paul Pogba, who was wearing an LA Lakers jersey.

Oh, well, the foundations had been laid

for

the downward spiral of his Manchester United Korea.

This is electric chat, isn't it?

This is great.

Right, your third and final fascination for March comes from Matt Roger.

And perhaps he was behind the fesshole tweet after all.

Okay, so my niche fascination in football is observing the reaction times of crowds behind the goal during slow motion replays.

So usually in the first slow motion replay you'll see a shot of the scorer scoring then wheeling away to celebrate during which if you focus on the background you might just start to see the moment of realization the balls cross the line and a very slow but coordinated motion of the crowd rising to its feet or arms gradually going up in the air like the goal's happened but no one can quite react quickly enough.

Even better is if you can see the stewards or other players reactions just that split second before the people behind them.

It's best observed when a long range or like out out-of-nowhere of goal goes in, but that's sadly often ruined by directors cutting away from the replay before you can see the full reaction take place, which I suppose then becomes a niche irritation.

Spot on with this one, Dave.

I've participated in this wholeheartedly in my life.

I think it's a very long-range goal scenario because it gives you more to work with.

Yeah, this is great.

And yeah, I find myself doing this as well.

And

it's fascinating to me sometimes how there are people right behind the goal.

But like a long-range goal that's that's clearly going in is it's traveling towards the top corner and it's even after it's hit the back of the net you've still got people in the crowd sort of open-mouthed not sure looks like looks like they haven't worked out that it's gone in yet and it maybe that's a trick of the slow motion making it seem more emphasis you know seem worse than it actually is in real life in real time i'm sure it looks fine but like the jovial fans at sully hole more yeah exactly

they're all in slow motion but um it just yeah it just amazes me how long it takes some people to realize that the ball's gone in Exactly.

I mean, conversely, Charlie, I always make it a massive challenge for myself when I see a replay of a very sort of voluptuous long-range goal to see who knows first that it's going in.

Of the 200 people in shot behind the goal, who has spotted the fact that it's definitely going in first?

Because, and, you know, whilst allowing for the fact that they might be in a better position than some other people, it is essentially a great test of footballing knowledge, of footballing physics, of knowing ball.

If you can see it's going in and you're the first to react, that's it.

You're a legend.

By extension, there are some goals, it does take your breath away when, with all that knowledge, you are convinced that you are about to see a goal and then you don't.

That is a really like powerful thing because you're in the way that some players look sort of open-mouthed.

Yeah.

Because they're just like, how, like, everything I know told me instinctively that was going to go in, and yet somehow it hasn't

is an amazing thing to happen.

I mean, of course, there's the, there's the noticing a goal going in, Dave, or noticing a goal that could be about to go in, but then there's also the physical reaction to a goal being scored.

And when you see the in a kind of wide shot of a goal going in, when you see the first pair of hands flail upwards, it's like someone full starting in the 100-metre final at the Olympics thinking, you went too early.

Yeah.

That's the gamble.

That's the risk you take.

Yeah.

But yeah, I wonder if people know that they're the first.

They presumably don't.

I mean, it's all in the moment, Charlie.

You're never going to be.

You're never going to be the aim, is it?

Let's face it.

I understand that the goal is about to happen here.

I do like just watching the general scene as well.

Once the goal has gone in and the majority of the crowd have engaged in celebration, seeing slow-motion celebration and the very subtle differences between how each individual person celebrates.

It's never the same celebration twice.

But they're very subtle differences, but I don't know.

But yeah, wide open mouths for great goals are pretty unrivaled in that sense.

Some people get both, you know, both fists up.

Some people, it's the hug of the person next to them.

Some people turn around to look at the people behind them.

Some people, if they're down the front, they might try and move towards the front of the stand.

It's all sorts going on.

It's great.

Let's not forget the people, Charlie, who aren't looking.

When you might see the old person who's literally not looking at the game at all, or even people who are on their way out up the steps.

And you think, are you going to turn around in time?

Has the sound of the crowd made you turn around in time?

And you see them disappearing down the down the concourse bit, and you think, ah, you're never going to see that goal live.

There was one really recently.

I'm trying to think what it was.

Yeah, you could see someone sort of sneaking out at the back.

And yeah, I really wondered what then happened.

It was a really good goal recently, but I don't know which one it was.

That's so annoying.

But they basically disappeared down over the...

Was it a late goal?

Yeah.

Maybe.

A late winner.

Someone will know this.

I guarantee one of the cliche listeners will know this.

Bad moment to show someone the score on your phone from another match.

If you're really early with it, you could turn around and go, look at this.

But as Matt Roger says, Dave, we've got to include stewards in this because, I mean, when you see any sort of goal go in the replay, you are drawn to the stewards to think, does this person care about this goal?

It's the same as security guards at gigs.

It's like, how do they not show any reaction?

I realize they'd probably do this like five times a week, but how can you not be remotely, emotionally affected, even if you don't support the team by a goal going in behind you, which is a big event?

Well, sometimes you do see a steward show some emotion.

I guess it's just sometimes just impossible not to.

But I suppose thinking about it, like a goal going in is one of the key moments for the steward to remain calm and make sure that no one

runs on the pitch or anything like that.

I think do you remember the old Anfield?

They used to be very visible somehow.

Sorry, the old Anfield camera angle.

They used to be very visible somehow.

like in those Newcastle, in those Liverpool Newcastle 4-3 games, I don't know what it was.

And maybe it was just thinking, like, how are they staying calm?

While it was all going crazy,

it seemed very near the action somehow.

Oh, mate, Collimore's closing in over there.

But

even when a steward David even just allows themselves a little furtive look over their shoulder to see what's going on.

I mean, that level of curiosity must afflict all humans.

You must want to know what's about to enfold behind you.

You must just want to go,

unless you're lucky enough to have a screen in your eye line.

I suppose maybe you could be as a steward these days.

Maybe some of them just don't like football.

I don't know.

I was going to say, it's got to help.

Yeah, fair play.

Okay, well, that wraps up your fascinations.

Very new stuff.

Really enjoyed that.

We'll be back very shortly with your irritations.

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That is wonderful!

Welcome back to Football Clichés.

This is the listener's mezza Harlan Dix.

We've taken care of your niche, obscure fascination to football.

Now it's time for your irrational irritations.

We kick things off with Ollie.

My football irritation is one that has a few parts, but the overriding thing is basically when, do you know, if one of your players gets injured and then the physios come on and then they bring on the little

bag of bits and it's got some drinks in.

And then what winds me up is when opposition players might come over and have a drink of your team's drink.

I don't like it.

Half the time, they actually just spit the drink out on the floor.

And as well, what else annoys me is when they might even just like throw the bottle on the floor and just like someone else has got to clear it up for them.

I don't like that.

And I've even seen referees take a swig of my team's drink.

My team.

They've got their own team.

We've all got our own teams, we've got our own drinks.

Stick to your own.

As well, I just think with the like all the sort of edges people are trying to get in elite sport with you know throwing coaches and

like Ronaldo's got that oxygen chamber.

And I think everyone's trying to get these little edges, and then we're just letting anyone else have our drinks and our LucasAid and whatever.

I just think we've got to draw the line somewhere.

That's a lovely delivery to that, Dave.

Yeah, that was great.

It went a bit Josh Pugh in the middle, didn't it?

I thought.

Your own bit was

Josh Pugh doing a bit as a former footballer or something.

As much as I appreciate the really, really subtle level of irritation going on here, Charlie, I have to say, what overrides it for me is I quite like seeing rival footballers getting on.

I like seeing them having a little laugh in the middle of a game.

And by extension, I quite like them sharing each other's drinks.

And if the referee gets involved, that's just another layer of sportsmanship that I like to see.

I think this has happened to me at Sunday League as well, where

I think there was a stoppage and you happen to find yourself on the side of the pitch or something and you're away from where your stuff is and there's a whole thing of bottles and you do something like and i'm trying to remember but i feel like possibly i did have a swing and someone was like got really annoyed at me for drinking the team's water and i was like there's no you do water here yeah take water i'm trying to think what i would do in that situation if i was you like drinking the other team's water and them getting annoyed and i think i think my response would be in in my in my full midst of cliché's existence i think i'd just say i don't think you're really annoyed i think you think you're supposed to be annoyed but you're not if you really think about it you don't give a shit.

You don't care.

Yeah, don't pretend to be annoyed.

You've reacted reflexively, is what you've done.

By the way, have you listened to the Drink Cliché's podcast?

I mean,

as a tangent, Dave, if there's anything that 30 years of Sunday League has taught me, never drink the water out of the bottles.

My brother never cleaned them, ever.

He just filled them up with water at the tap and brought them with him, and they were disgusting.

Yeah.

Well, so you had like the same bottles in like a little carrier or something.

Yeah, they were

sort of Lucas, blue LucasAid bottles in a cage.

These days it tends to be everyone just brings their, I suppose you do have the old kind of metal water bottle situation, which people are all, I'm always doing it as well.

Someone always leaves one behind every week.

We've got a collection of random metal water bottles in our kit bag now, which we've accumulated over the season.

I can't believe that.

How can it happen?

But I do have a little moment sometimes when, yeah, there's a break in play or something.

And maybe I've had a LucasAid and it's all gone or something.

I need another, I need some water.

can i just can i just have any any ones is that that's fine isn't it the not when i was going to see i'll just do it yeah what yeah what's the threshold because i'm getting annoyed by that the bigger the bottle the more viable it is a little charlie yeah yeah exactly you're very vulnerable when you've got a massive two liter bottle

i mean i'm not much of a uh hydratesman frankly um most of my sunday league drinking gets done in the months of July, August and May, I think, when it's really, really hot.

Otherwise, I can go a full two hours without filling up.

I'm all right.

After mad.

Damn the pub.

Get finding.

After some squash, obviously.

But yeah, okay.

Ollie, it's a mixed bag from us.

We're not sure.

But I think we should look on the more humane side of this and embrace it.

Next irritation comes from Ender Cole.

My footballing hate is something that the commentators will say sometimes.

I usually associate it with someone who has a really clever finish from a cross.

And the commentator will say, oh, he knows exactly what he's doing there.

Of course, he knows exactly what he's doing there because he's just done it.

With the exception of a mistake or a bounce or a deflection, every single thing that a footballer does on the pitch, he knows exactly what he's doing because he's a conscious human being who is doing it.

It triggers me every time.

It drives me absolutely bananas.

It makes no sense and they need to get rid of it.

This is genuine irritation from Ender here, Charlie.

Do you share his annoyance at the phrase?

I feel like he's a little bit on the pedantic side.

This is a bit too literally Dave for me.

Yeah, also, I tend to think of he knows what he's doing more with a kind of a sly elbow or something like that.

Okay.

When it probably does have more of a usage because what you are debating is how aware he is that he's done it.

He knows what he's doing there.

He knows exactly what he's doing there.

He's just left it, left a foot in.

Cynicism, essentially.

Yeah, I think of it more for that than the, I know what he means, but it's with that example, but it's never annoyed me, I have to say.

When the phrase, Yeah, he knows exactly what he's doing there for a goal scoring attempt, usually successful, Dave.

What's the exact scenario?

What kind of finish are we talking about here?

Ender says, suggests a kind of clever finish from a cross.

What kind of finish requires a commentator to point out that he knows what he's doing?

I think there was one the other night.

I don't know if Lee Dixon used these exact words, but he did point out that Harry Kane waited an extra second to use the defender to bend the ball round him into the

post.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So perhaps that sort of thing, just doing something a little bit different that perhaps you wouldn't necessarily always, you know, the average player might not, might not do.

I think, yeah, it's a sort of guided finish is one where it looks,

someone's on the right, they put it back, and on your right foot, you sort of guide it with your instep quite gently and it goes in off the far post and it looks perfect.

And the point that you're making is like he has meant to do exactly that.

That's not just that it's hit his foot and gone in that precise point.

They've sort of measured how much pace it needs because they're such a good finisher that they can kind of just finesse it in quite softly and it beats the keeper that way through placement.

But I would take issue a bit with the that everyone knows what they're doing because I think some finishes, they don't really know what they're doing.

Like there are some finishes that can be a bit lucky for want of a better word.

You know, if you're not a natural finish, I think there'll be some people who would go through on goal and yes, they might end up hitting the perfect spot.

but in a way more through accident than design.

They've sort of just levered it and it's gone in the top corner.

But that's very different.

So I think it's a distinction that is worth making.

If you're a, if, if Harry Kane, as an example, if he puts a finish right in the roof of the net top corner, he does know it.

He's done that, you can bet, very, very deliberately because he's that good a finisher.

Whereas if it's a centre-back suddenly finds themselves in front of goal, they might just sort of lever it and it's ended up there.

But they haven't really known exactly what they're doing.

They've just hit it really hard.

So it kind of suits a scenario, Dave, where the execution of the goal, there's an element of ambiguity about whether what was produced was what was intended, or it might look awkward in some respects.

And you think, no, that's exactly what he was trying to do.

That's exactly what he wanted to do.

I'm tempted to open up the Benjamin Pavard can of worms here from 2018.

I've learned my lesson on that one, but

I'm still going to die on, I'm going to die halfway up that hill at least.

I'm not convinced that's exactly what he knew he was doing, but still, you know, lovely result.

Where does giving the keep of the eyes come into this situation?

I think that's Peak knows what he's doing, isn't it?

You're in total control.

Yeah.

Like going near post rather than sweeping it near post.

Yeah, that looks really good.

But at the same time, a little bit too tidy.

Like there has to be an element of, oh, did he actually mean to do that?

Maybe?

Yeah, I don't think you need to make that distinction there because,

yeah, it kind of looks very...

That's quite a precise finish.

Quite an overtly precise finish.

Okay, well, that takes care of our second irritation for my listeners.

Our final one comes from Greg Folsom.

Without wanting to get too Roy Keene, that's his job about it.

One of my main irritations is centre-backs getting praised for really basic defending in pre-match build-up.

Oh, look, there he is, standing pretty much where all centre-backs stand, heading away a hopeful long ball.

And look at this clip: snuffing out the danger by marking a forward and tackling him.

Great.

It's even worse if he scored from a corner the week before.

So now, Mr.

1 in 375 is a golf threat at the other end.

Do me a favour.

Great sign-off of do me a favor there.

Charlie, do you think that snuffing out the danger is the easiest praise a footballer can achieve in a Montau's context?

Yeah, it depends maybe on the position, but yeah, it's a fairly basic thing to do.

It's a kind of like, and there he is again, you know, sort of just popping in the place he's expected to be.

Because often snuffing out is a, before it's become particularly

sort of interesting by definition.

So it's kind of just like, oh, yeah, we don't really know how threatening that was because they've snuffed it out early.

So it doesn't look great.

I'm so glad that Greg picked out snuffing out the danger here, Dave, because at Sunday league level, if you snuff out the danger, you feel like a king.

Like, you feel great.

And to a certain extent, it's good that you haven't had to commit to a tackle.

You've seen the danger first.

But

I swear to God, at the elite level, it's the easiest thing in the world to do.

You're essentially robbing a player of possession before they've even got possession out wide, probably smuggling it out for a throw in anyway.

So you

you haven't really achieved much.

And that's seen as...

You had three or four of those in a string together in a montage and suddenly it's, oh, it's all about his positioning, really.

He knows where to be.

Yeah, but I think there's a certain universal truth to it, depending on regardless of the level you're playing at.

And I think individually, fine, yeah, maybe it looks sort of fairly routine, but

if you have done it several times in a game, it sort of becomes greater than the sum of its parks, I think.

Fair enough.

In a way.

like that's what else, what else do you want them to do?

My issue with it, I think.

He praises for it.

It's really important.

It just doesn't look great.

That's the problem with it.

As a sort of montage, it's quite uninspiring because it's not what you want to see is a last-ditch tackle,

you know, which isn't great defending.

You know, famously, you know, the best of Maldini never made a tackle in his own career.

But, like, you know, that's his way.

In a way, I would rather watch, you know, a compilation of like last-ditch heroic tackles than of Maldini doing his very clever,

very elite, sensible defending.

So I think that's why snuffing out can just seem a bit boring.

It's like, oh,

it doesn't look like he's done loads because he's just really smart and his positioning's great.

And I think that is sometimes the problem with montages is that sometimes a pundit has decided that a player is worthy of praise and maybe they don't quite have enough

charge

to illustrate it effectively.

So they just chuck an extra one in there that maybe doesn't quite reach the bar.

I mean, there definitely has to be a minimum length, you know, widely accepted in the industry, Charlie, for a montage.

If you haven't got, if you've got less than 15 seconds of material, then it's not enough.

So you are going to have to pad it out with danger snuffing, basically.

Yeah, totally.

And like some players just do lend themselves way more to little highlights packages than others.

It's like on computer games.

It's like I remember on, you know, the old Pro Evos and stuff, it was really hard to make some players that good because you realized their skills aren't so easily transferable.

Like computer games lend themselves to guys who are rapid and who are quite skillful.

Those players were so useful on Pro Evokes.

Like

anyone can just run fast.

But like Paul Scholes, I remember, was never that good.

Like, yeah, he had good shooting, but

you can't just give yourself like the intelligence that he had.

Do you know what I mean?

Like Palomaldini had 99 on snuffing on Pro Evokes.

Yeah, exactly.

Like Palomaldini wouldn't have, like, wouldn't have been as useful.

What you want is some big unit who can kind of make flying sliding tackles.

This is absolutely fascinating.

I'd never thought, it never crossed my mind, Charlie, that

you'd be controlling a player in a computer game.

You think, well, actually, there are elements of his game that you just can't simulate, like just being in the right place.

Yeah, because I'm controlling this player.

Exactly.

I don't seem to have his vision.

I can't suddenly spot passes that he can spot.

Okay.

Well,

based on Greg's kind of example here and my theory that snuffing out the danger is the lightest praise imaginable, if we could just quickly run through a team, a standard team, and what is the snuffing out the danger equivalent?

So

if you're doing a montage of a goalkeeper, Dave, which I think is less common, but you still do see it,

what's the most routine thing they do to qualify for a montage?

Coming for a catch?

Yeah,

I think because that's, you know, you appreciate that.

As a defender, you appreciate that so much.

You know, your last minute, he catches it.

He lies that.

Like, that's just,

that's invaluable.

Commanding his area can be dressed up as.

um fullbacks good shepherd a good shepherding out, Charlie, is surely perfect for a fullback.

Yeah, and also I think nowadays you'd want to show them that they're really comfortable on the ball, so it might, you know, kind of receive it, drop a shoulder, lose a winger, and then pick a pass or something.

Like driving forward with the ball.

He's not afraid to drive forward.

That's the good thing about him.

Centre-backs, we've got snuffing.

Like central midfielders, Dave, you're basically looking at a bit of give and go.

Just it gives it simple.

Yeah, I think simple passing, yeah.

I think like a Jorginho montage of just recycling possession,

five-yard passes, few interceptions, definitely.

That would help.

Now, he would be a tough player on Pro Evo or something to get.

I mean, like,

he's all about intelligence and reading the game.

Absolutely useless.

I don't know if you've ever done this thing.

I think if I was playing Pro Evo or FIFA and I had him in the team, I think I would try and make him play 100%.

And I would

pointlessly pass a bit really quickly.

Exactly.

You try it.

That's the only way I know how to play Pro Evo, which is just to pin passes around in in your own half.

Look, 100%.

You'd do exactly that.

You try and do that, be really mature, and then you'd get bored and be like, oh, I'm tired of doing little passes that aren't really going anywhere.

I just want to launch it out to my striker or whatever.

If you've got Beckham, presumably you refuse to try and beat a man.

It's always kind of Ben Victor said.

We should play more faithfully to the player that we are representing here.

Speaking of wingers, what's a winger got to do to get a montage, Charlie?

I think that can be a bit more exciting.

I mean, that can be more.

It has to be, doesn't it?

Because that's...

There's no mum dating.

Well, I think you might be talking about the fact that they've added end products to their game this season.

You know, they've always been a threat, but now, you know, we're seeing, we're seeing the goals and assists.

I think the mundane elements of their job would be want two things.

Either the starting position, look how wide he stays.

He's right on the touchline there.

Or getting to the byline, regardless of the cross, just getting to the byline and getting your ball in.

Or tracking back, of course,

for him to double up on the opposition wing election.

He's not afraid to, doesn't think he's above it, sort of thing.

Going the other way.

Strikers now,

I would say the snuffing out the danger equivalent for a striker, Charlie, is not goal scoring or attacking at all.

It's being involved in the build-up, hold-up play.

Because

you'll get Chris Wood montage.

Obviously, he's very good at that, so perhaps he's not a great example.

But a striker who's holding the ball up, controlling it, spreading it wide, and then making a fairly gentle run up to where he's supposed to be.

And that's considered to be like great.

That's what you want.

Crucial is that, yeah, then seeing them quite zoomed in on them, on their run as they sort of laid it off and they're then keeping up with play.

Honestly, montage, easily pleased nonsense.

Um, yeah, really appreciate this.

Thank you to Greg Fulsom for this for rounding things off for our listeners, Mez at Harland Dicks, this month.

Um, get your suggestions in for April.

Um, happy to uh field them whenever you want whenever they come to your mind.

Send them to me as soon as you have them.

Thanks to you, Charlie Eccleshaire.

Thank you.

Thanks to you, Dave Walker.

Thank you.

Thanks to everyone for listening.

We'll be back on Tuesday.

See you then.

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.

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