Scottish League Two scores, leaked fines lists & the sixth penalty taker: The listeners' loves & hates

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I'm sorry, you can sit there and look and play with all your silly machines as much as you like.

Is Gascoigne going to have a crack?

Yes, you know.

Oh, I say

brilliant.

But jeez!

He's round the goalkeeper.

He done it!

Absolutely incredible!

He launched himself six feet into the crowd and kung fu kicked a supporter who was eye without a shadow of a doubt getting him lip.

Oh, I say,

The cliché's pod just about survives the global internet outage.

Sean Deich performs his solemn duty at his first Forest press conference.

Results programmes giving Scottish League 2 the airtime it possibly deserves.

The psychological effect of the main camera angle.

Wild assumptions about a team's sixth penalty taker in a shootout, that leaked fines list from Aston Villa in 2022, and one of the most nuanced observations on the language of football we've ever faced.

Brought to your ears by Goal Hanger Podcasts.

This is Football Clichés and you're Mezza Harlan Dicks.

Hello everyone and welcome to Football Clichés.

I'm Adam Hurry and this is going to be the listener's Mezza Harlan Dix.

Joining me for this one is Charlie Ecclesia.

How you doing?

Very well, thank you.

Alongside you is David Walker.

How are things?

Things are good.

Excellent.

This podcast will be going out after we wrap up the clichés live tour for 2025.

Manchester, Leeds and Glasgow were the business end.

It got steadily better as it went along.

Just a great way to finish it, Dave.

Yeah.

Manchester, Leeds delivered big time as they always do.

Two really happy hunting grounds for us.

And as we record this, we are in Glasgow, soon to be going to the venue.

And I trust that it will be a fitting finale to the tour.

Yeah, it'll be great.

Be epic.

It's time to go home, isn't it, Charlie?

We're ready, yeah.

Right, let's let's do an adjudication panel first because we've got a few bits and pods to take care of first.

Of course, Tuesday's pod was delayed by the Amazon web services outage.

I felt compelled, Dave, to tell our listeners about that.

So I went on the Reddit and announced the fact that the pod may be delayed and some incredible banter in the replies.

Dead stop says, I mean, it's ridiculous, Andy.

AWS, in my day, we just uploaded it into the internet, and that was it.

The keys the impression is really getting

stretched past all of Serderus in this tour.

Cliche's host breaks silence amid web outage with 36 word message.

The cloud, in my day, we just called it shared computing resources, etc., etc.

The main thing is, Charlie, everyone took it in incredible humor and the slight disruption to their podcast routine was dealt with fairly well.

Yes, well done David Walker for saving the day.

And you do get a sense from talking to the listeners after the shows of how much they are really relying on it for their Tuesday morning commute and what have you.

So yeah, apologies it was delayed.

Out of our hands, of course, but glad it it got up eventually.

David Walker saved matters.

Gets the pod away.

Now, before Sean Deich was appointed as Nottingham Forest Manager, we confidently predicted that if he was appointed as Nottingham Forest Manager, the likelihood of him doing an impression of Brian Clough in his first press conference was sky high.

And so it proved.

Bit that I like is when you win.

No, I want Nottingham Forest.

I want this person to be winning football matches way beyond my time.

You know, I want the club to win.

That's the main thing.

This badge is bigger than any manager, that's for sure.

It's bigger than, well, there's one manager that's probably as big as the badge.

We all know that was.

They'd be saying, hey, young Ginger, well done.

There's not many.

You know, only him, I would say.

Charlie, they're always six out of ten impressions, aren't they?

At best.

No one's ever really nailed it, have they?

No matter how many people try.

Yeah, it's a bit before, or certainly before my time.

I don't really, all I really know is...

hearing people doing him.

So I can't even really imagine what he actually sounds like.

I am slightly surprised he went there so early.

Does that carry favour?

I would have thought some might be a bit sort of sensitive about that sort of thing.

Obviously invoke him, talk about what a legend he is and what a hero he is.

But yeah, a brave step.

But it does seem like he is deemed to have spoken very well and won over the fan base very quickly.

So fair play.

I think two things.

I mean, first of all, I think Michael Sheen might take issue with six out of ten.

I think he did a bit better than six out of ten.

When he did young Clough, all the impressions seem to be of old Clough for some reason.

No one ever does the younger version, do they?

But I mean, at least Daishi did actually, actually know Clough, you know, so he has got something to base it off.

And it was a bit of an impromptu one there as well.

I think he sort of realised, oh, oh no, I've actually, I can't say that.

I need to remember about Cloughy.

He seemed to regret it almost instantly, and I completely sympathise.

Over to the Champions League action on Tuesday night, Arsenal versus Athletico Madrid.

Mike Ward says, I really hope you heard the conversation about dogs just now between Alan Shearer and John Champion.

It was right before the goal.

Incredible timing, very partridge, just incredible stuff.

Marcus Yorente, who we saw, scored twice.

Arisouth

Hanfield.

Have you got a dog?

No, used to.

No.

Never.

Rice.

Oh, that's a lovely delivery.

And And Arsenal come up, Jumps.

What a set piece yet again.

Wow.

So much to glean from that, Charlie.

I mean, all I can assume is that Alan Shearer's dog has died and John Champion is really anti-dogs, like properly anti-dogs.

And then, above all, John Champion just has the immaculate composure to just swing back into the action.

Tremendous.

I love that it happens when it does.

Like, because it sounds like it's going to be in such a sort of like prosaic part of the game, and then it gets maximum exposure because it's just before the goal.

Yeah, lovely stuff.

He's really carving out a niche for this sort of thing, champion, isn't he, Dave?

But as we said before,

he's just so comfortable in the commentary gantry these days.

I feel like he can just handle anything.

He's got so many gears.

Yeah, I mean, has he stepped it up a little bit since his appearance on the pod as well?

He's really leaning into that side of his personality.

Would not put it past him.

Elsewhere in that game, I think it was the World Feed commentary.

This came from Timely Assistance on Reddit.

Just stuck on the highlights of the Arsenal Athletico game on YouTube, and I'm genuinely baffled as whether this commentary is AI-generated or not.

The way he cuts off his word early as if the game has just registered the next action in the play and overrides the commentary is uncanny.

It's like a video game.

Exciting break.

Martinelli!

Oh, it's a glorious goal for Arsenal!

That's really video gamey, Dave.

Yeah, something weird has happened there.

It seems like

his mic cuts out or something just after he said Martinelli.

And then it comes in again, Charlie, in a completely different volume.

It's incredible.

But that's why it's that because it sounds really disjointed.

Yeah.

And then it starts off with a nice bit of generic commentary, Dave, which is, you know, great break here.

They're on the attack.

It's purely algorithmic.

We're being hoodwinked now.

Humans are being replaced.

Don't like this at all.

Also from the Arsenal game, this came from Adam Simpson.

He says, is this the most boring commentator's curse ever?

Watching Mikel Arteta pace up and down in his technical area, and then likewise for Diego Simeone to his right, it's like the proclaimers.

I will walk 500 miles and I will walk 500 more because the two of them just are.

I mean, as I say that, then Simeone comes to a standstill with his hands on his hips.

It didn't last long.

Nothing is safer.

Pesky Simeone.

He really doesn't have to say that as well.

I mean, it's very hard.

He's on the radio, mate.

You don't say it at all.

We never know.

Just say he's continuing to pace.

No, it's great.

He did have to say it.

Yeah.

No, his integrity was at stake.

Yeah, yeah.

Really.

Probably would have been on to him.

There was a headline after this match, Charlie.

Another great bit of emidding.

It says, Arsen Wenger turns 76 amid Arsenal's Champions League routes.

Ben Telfer says, I can't hack these emids.

Did he turn 76 in the second half?

What's going on?

Yeah, maybe he celebrates his birthday only when it was like the exact time that he was born on that day.

And so, yeah, he was born at 9.30 p.m.

You can't use a mid here.

I mean, apart from him being the Arsenal manager of your, there's absolutely no reason for this to be an emid.

While, that would be all right.

Was this, though, one of those like Twitter.

This looks AI generated.

This was one of those, was it one of these like Twitter what's going on things?

Yeah, so that site explains.

I mean, I say that.

I mean, you do, it's not that that dissimilar from some of the ones you see but oh god yeah it is particularly ludicrous charlie you noticed something else during the arsenal game of course yeah just to round off the arsenal game and this is sort of very um sort of pure cliches i guess but for those who propagate the cliche of you just needed one to go in off his backside victor yocores yesterday while his first goal didn't go in off his backside but he was you know he was a big name striker came in on big money and was under quite a lot of pressure to end his goal drought, which was nine games coming into this game for club and country, was the absolute archetype just needs one to go in off his backside.

He scores a goal and it is as scruffy, as, you know, spiritually as in off your backside as it can possibly be.

I mean, he basically tackles a guy and it kind of deflects in, sort of dribbles in over the net.

Rewarded for his endeavor, which is, you know, in the spirit of in off his backside, right?

Exactly, yeah.

If you keep putting yourself in the position,

you're going to get lucky eventually.

And then sure enough, three minutes later, he does get another one.

Now, all he needed was that one and off his backside.

It was absolutely perfect.

That's really good.

So well done, those people who pushed that cliche.

Yeah, it's going to feed the truism.

But yeah, what's next, Dave?

I want to see statistical evidence.

So OPTA must collect data for body parts that score goals.

So I want to see the ratio of goals that get scored after a player scores an unorthodox goal offer an unusual body part and then see whether it's backed up by the data.

It'd be good.

Similarly, I want to see if the old truism, Dave, of one of these days we're going to put five past somebody.

Could you quantify that scenario?

Sort of a series of 1-1 draws and 1-0 defeats and 1-0 wins, and then eventually they smash five-past someone in isolated case.

That's the whole underlying numbers thing as well.

Oh, yeah, that's true.

Well, yeah, now there is more sort of data to that than just a feeling.

Time to embrace XG after all.

Should say yesterday as well, Champions League, the scoreline.

There was an element of that mad boxing, the famous boxing day with the crazy results.

I mean, the scorelines were extraordinary across the board yesterday, yeah.

Yeah, another high-scoring game was Barcelona versus Olympiakos.

Socrates 1882 says, I don't know who was on COCOMS, but on the replay of the Olympiarcos penalty, Charlie, they said, he still had a lot to do.

I'm absolutely not having that for a penalty.

It's nonsense.

What sort of thing in a penalty scenario could require the caveat of he still had a lot to do?

It would have to be a rebound.

I don't think the actual...

I haven't seen it, but it can't have been a rebound, surely.

No, no, no, it sounds like this is for the actual penalty.

Like a massive goalkeeper, he still had a lot to do.

Yeah.

I mean, it's kind of true of all penalties, because in some ways, penalties are, well, any sort of pressure penalty.

I don't think that's easy.

That looks really nerve-wracking to me.

Now I realise it, Dave.

The caveat of he still had a lot to do is usually used for when otherwise the chances become very presentable.

So maybe you've rounded the goalkeeper and gone wide.

So it's still an open goal, but there's still something else that hinders you.

So for a penalty, what could that be?

Is it just like the penalty is easy, but he still had a lot to do to beat this goalkeeper?

Like, hmm, seems a really strange thing to commentate.

Well, you've got to collect the ball.

You've got to put it on the spot.

You've got to walk backwards.

You've got to take it and run up.

He might have had to dust himself down and pick himself up as well.

So so the other way around you've got to do you've got to do the picking up first of course uh elsewhere in this game mike minet has done it again this is now surely his trademark

the touch is nice oh the finish is better

the tune's good the rhythm's good charlie the touch is nice the finish is better

yeah

knows what he's doing now

i mean yeah i mean we've discussed this before dave but uh you know vibrato in football commentary i i feel like and this wasn't an uncertain moment This was this was just a nice finish.

There was no trajectory of the ball that required any kind of uncertain timbre in the voice or anything like that.

Yeah, let's let's be careful not to make it all sound a bit too pantomime.

Yeah, but I don't mind people you know carving out a little niche for themselves a lot of commentators out there who've got to you know you've got to you've got to find your thing, haven't you?

Yeah.

I'd be does jazz hands when he does vibrato.

Anyway, this episode is brought to you in association with Nord VPN.

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Indeed, Luke Nicholson got in touch with this.

He says, I'm not sure where we stand on commentators laughing as a goal is scored.

The Via Play lead commentator chose a chuckle over actual words to describe Nick Voltamada's lovely flipped equalizer for Newcastle against Brighton.

It worked for me.

I mean Charlie does that count as laughing?

I think it counts as I'm impressed as a whoa

more than a, hey, hey, hey, hey.

Yeah, well, I was going to say, though, you do hear comments, oh,

it's true.

Like, that's not totally alien.

Yeah.

So that was Norwegian, but it almost sounded like maybe it was club commentary where they're intentionally biased.

Like, if that was German and they were like, oh, you know, our man, our boy has scored.

But yeah, I don't know what the bias would be from Norway.

They love their big strikers up there.

Take Barry Davis, who was, you know, a great commentator in so many ways and keen not to let let his emotions run wild, he was keen on a ho ho ho ho, so maybe it's more of a kind of impressed rather than just being amused by something.

Is it an amusing goal?

Not particularly.

It's a cheeky little effort, isn't it, Charlie?

But enough to make you chuckle?

Yeah, I don't know.

I think that is

the audacity of it.

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We'll be back after the break with the listeners, Mezza Harlan Dix.

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He's like, no, I'm looking for you.

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Welcome back to Football Clichés.

Dreamland episode 9 is out this Friday.

It's going to be great here from a gig at the Tabernacle in 2009 as a little taster of what it's all about.

For just $5.99 a month then, you can sign up for Dreamland and get ad-free listing of all of our episodes and two episodes a month of Dreamland our exclusive show and all sorts of other things as well just go to dreamland.football clichés.com.

Right time for the listeners Mez at Harland Dicks for October.

Let's kick off the fascinations with this from Michael Culligan.

No voice note Charlie but he says he's fascinated by the disproportionate amount of coverage given to results from the Scottish League Two on results shows, on scores shows.

And, you know, I mean, it's not disproportionate.

I think I think it gets the right amount of attention.

But I'm always quietly impressed on soccer Saturday and final score, no matter who's presenting it, because obviously they're, you know, they have someone in their ear sort of telling this sort of stuff as well.

I like that they give lip service to Scottish League too, because it is quite clearly the bottom of the domestic pile in England and Scotland for people's viewing considerations.

But for them to just mention who scored a goal, I think is a classy touch.

Like it's good.

Yeah, there is something very sort of egalitarian about it

and comforting, I suppose.

We're just so used to hearing about East Fife and teams like this and how they've got on.

Yeah, I think it is a nice touch.

Actually, it's just a really good point.

Before I get on to the slightly deeper analysis of this, Dave, we are so accustomed, you know, having grown up with the classified scores and just goal services on the radio and things like that, to having those club names from Scottish League 2 just feeding in to our ears.

I'm not saying we'd be bereft without them, but it's part of the furniture, no question.

100%, yeah.

You know, a lot of focus is on, you know, gets put on the English football pyramid, but Scotland have got their own one too and oh sure and I've always noticed this and I don't know if there's like anything to it or or what but the Scottish teams always the halves and the full times always seem to come slightly before the English teams why is that is it because I swear this might be like an urban myth in football but I think their half times are shorter or something like this

the listeners are going to be flooding in the chorus wonders about this.

I'd swear it's something to do with half times being shorter in Scotland, and that's why.

Is it not not just at the lower level of football you typically have less stoppage time?

I feel like that.

Okay.

What?

Are they better behaved?

I just don't.

You know, Premier League.

Premier League, I bet, will have the longest amount of stoppage time.

I'm pretty confident in that.

Well, but I guess partly because of things like VAR.

for a start.

Okay, listeners write in, and if you don't know the answer, just tell us which one is the least ridiculous answer to that.

I've always noticed this, like, for years and years.

And I think sometimes that's when you do sort of notice some of the lower Scottish teams.

And there's a few early goals when if they go in there, it seems like they they their early goals always come before our early goals which is a which is a strange a strange thing but you you know you say like the Sunderland election results like they get richer than anybody else maybe up there what's going on up there but you you say oh they have people helping them in their ear and stuff and I think TV probably does because there's just so much going on and you and you're on camera so you can't sort of be looking down at notes and stuff but having worked on around the grounds in the past with Adrian Durham at talk sport I can tell you that he doesn't have anyone in his ear he tell he has someone in his ear sort of telling him there's been a goal at St.

James's, obviously, throw to the game.

But he's just got Sky Sports News up in front of him on his iPad, and so he's seeing the goals go in through their programme.

But then, if a goal goes in in the Scottish Championship, he will have something to say about it.

That's good.

I mean, I really like Adrian Durham on Talk Sport on that duty because it's slightly unorthodox because he's based at a stadium, Dave, and he's sort of half covering a game, but he's also doing the general service.

So, I'm more impressed by him caring about Scottish League Two in that respect.

But you sort of pay tribute there to the fact that, you know, Scottish has a thriving lower league just as much as England do.

Do they have a not the top 12 podcast in Scotland?

I don't know, but I do think.

They must do.

So I know the guys from the Terrace, who we had on one of the early quiz episodes, they did something mad.

They did like a 10-hour preview

of the Scottish lower division.

Extraordinary.

Absolutely brilliant.

I mean, this is, I mean, you know, far be it from us to say, oh, stick to the mainstream.

This is the football clichés podcast we're talking about.

Great to see.

I do wonder, and I'm sure this doesn't happen, but mainly just because I saw this, it really piqued my interest.

On Twitter the other day, there was, it was like, oh, a North London Derby from, I think, the 80s.

And there was a goal scored in the first minute.

And they were like, oh, and

the goal's actually gone in before the match was technically meant to kick off.

It kicked off a minute early.

I was like, how or why would that have happened?

The video would explode.

Yeah, but what?

They just got everyone in.

We're like, is everyone here?

Should we just get going?

And it was like, yep, yep, we're ready.

All right, let's go.

I mean, someone I'm sure will know the answer to this, so please tell me.

But I was like, that's absolutely extraordinary.

So maybe at some of these these games, they're just like, well, is everyone here for East Five?

Yep, just get going.

Yep, cool.

Maybe it wasn't covered by the blackout.

Does that mean?

1458, let's go.

I think the blackout starts 15 minutes before, doesn't it?

But yeah, maybe they're trying to get around it.

But yeah, finally on this, though, Dave, I mean, it's probably more incumbent on the BBC to include this stuff in final score and just, you know, name-check goal scorers in Leeds here.

But does Sky Sports News really need to do it?

Because they're a commercial operation.

They'd probably, you'd think they'd be more geared towards the Premier League.

So if anything, I'm more impressed that they have this kind of even-handed approach.

Yeah, I think there would be, I think it's because at some point it was the standard and therefore England and Scotland, you know, obviously long history of, you know, the Scottish teams being big forces in European football and stuff, so maybe that's why.

But we don't get the League of Ireland or the Welsh League, do we, in the same way?

In like the classifieds.

Yeah, it's true.

Yeah, the Welsh League does...

does feel to suffer in that respect but yeah only so much space for this stuff I guess.

Anyway, let's move on.

Jamie Nevin has our next fascination for October.

So my fascination with football is how differently you view games you're watching on tv depending on the camera height in the stadium not literally but when you're watching a game at a big stadium you see all the space around the players you see all the passing names you think this is going to be a goal fest when you're watching a game at a smaller stadium with a lower camera height you think there's too many players on this pitch there's not enough space it's going to be nil-nil obviously it ends up being to all but at the start of the game you're thinking this is not going to be a spectacle charlie like this is absolutely spot on i think this you know i think this might be one of my first ever mhd fascinations of my entire entire life is noting the fact that if the higher the camera angle, the more expansive I believe the game is going to be.

I love the fact that Jamie Nevin chucked in passing lanes there, which is a really updated version of what I was thinking when I was nine.

But I'll tell you why this is definitely a thing.

I tell you why high camera angles seem to promise great football and low camera angles seem to imply a really cagey, scrappy encounter.

It's because it passes the test for two reasons.

One, I would think of a neutral game.

And two, if it's my team involved, I'm terrified.

If they're playing away from home at a low camera angle, that means that the game is going to be really tight, scrappy, then there's going to be no space for them to play their football and carve out a win.

If it's a big pitch, loads of space to run into, and

they're going to have a field day.

Yeah, it makes you think of FA Cup, or it makes me think of FA Cup ties.

You know, you're away at someone, it's got this really tight looking ground, the camera angle is like terrifyingly low.

It's absolutely that.

And you just can picture a pass out to your fullback and he's getting closed down straight away.

Clears it off their guy.

You get a throw in, but that guy's going mad because it's so small and there's just no space.

Yeah, i i think that's absolutely spark it's interesting that you've gone you've gone for height because i sometimes think a high camera angle also makes me think you know a high camera angle that makes the ground look tight so like loftus road yes kennel with kennel with road like properly looking the camera actually has to pan down vertically for a throw in yeah exactly and you know you you sort of even can't even see like the one corner of the pitch on the on the near side it's sort of you you've got a bit of the stand in the frame and stuff like so that that plays into my mind when i see that i think oh tight game you know this is going to be this isn't going to be free-flowing but whereas some of the a slightly lower camera angle at like a big expansive european stadium that's too far yeah but then i don't know if a game can ever be too expansive looking can it charge no but no but the pictures can just look massive and then you're like and even i mean you mentioned like a neutral game like a wemberley sometimes it can look just like i think the pitcher's too big for for any good football it's like you know when you're you're at that age of like i don't know 13 or so and you start playing on pitches that are just realistic, they're just too big for you.

Yeah.

And it's crap because it's like

the game just really suffers as a result.

And some games can look big for you.

Yeah, it really is a bit like that.

Yeah, when you've got the real running track, old sort of, you know, Serie A East European situations, you know that that ball is going to fly for ages beyond the goal and it's going to slow everything down.

So there is that, you know, quite literal element to it.

But obviously, Dave, this is a TV watcher bias to this.

And it feeds into paranoia and not being able to control the game, you know, through your mind and that sort of thing.

But in these situations, you just have to remind yourself that if you're on the pitch as a player, it'll be fine.

You know, you've got 120 yards by 50 or whatever it is to play with.

Everything will be okay.

They can handle it.

Yeah, that's a good point, actually, because you still do...

I know there's obviously a maximum and a minimum pitch dimension, but it's not massive either way, is it?

No.

And yet you still hear some ex-pros and pundits going, oh, you know, big pitch out on that tight pitch at Wembley or really tight pitch down at Luton.

it's going to be tricky for them that sentiment charlie is only recently starting to fade like it used to be such a thing and and and it's not necessarily coincided with standardized pitch sizes it really has taken so long to cut on that there really is no such thing as a tight pitch at the top level of football anymore.

It's difficult, yeah.

I mean, because you are talking about small differences, but like with anything, it's like, yeah, but at that level, you know, that can make a real difference.

But I mean, everyone will remember, or everyone of our sort of age will remember the Hybrid small pitch.

And then, you know, that was always a massive thing that people talked about.

And then when they moved to play those games at Wembley, it was like, God, they're good at Highbury.

They go, oh, good, they'll be at Wembley.

They've got Overmars and Anelka running into these huge swathes of space.

And then they were terrible at Wembley.

It was like, ah, no, because everyone got a lift from playing at Wembley.

So, no, go back to Highbury.

I mean, this is actually actually the base, basic, this is actually the best case study for this, Dave.

Think of Arsenal fans in the sort of 99-2000 season, having to switch between Highbury low, Wembley High, and just going, oh, I don't know what game to expect.

No one fucked it all up.

It's so weird, yeah.

But this does still exist, Adam.

Like, I know Arsenal were away at Fulham, and there was talk before the game of like, oh, you know, that tight pitch at Fulham.

I guess, you know, it's not a, you know, that's still seen as like a tight pitch.

The rose swilling Fulham fans on top of you, right on top of you.

Hemmed in right next to the Thames.

There's nowhere for you to go.

If you can't swim, you're fucked.

Yeah.

Right, excellent stuff.

The third fascination for this month comes from Chris Shelley.

My football fascination is when referees have to award a goal kick when there's been an appeal for a penalty and they've got to really work hard to communicate that they are giving a goal kick and not a penalty with an exaggerated stance that involves sort of squatting down, having a really flat hand pointing towards the six-yard box to indicate that it's a goal kick, not a penalty.

And I always judge their ability to do this on the reaction of the attacking team's fans because if they're up in anger, then that means, hey, fair play, Ref, you've communicated that really well.

you've given a goal kick.

Whereas if there's a mixed half and half of some fans annoyed but some fans celebrating the penalty, that means they've done a really bad job of communicating the fact that they were pointing to the six shard box and not the penalty.

So it's all about the ridiculous stance of the referee and hopefully it's communicated the right thing to the fans.

It doesn't matter whether the decision is correct or otherwise.

This is absolutely spot on.

by the way, Dave.

And the first thing I want to talk about here is

it must be a huge moment for referees because one, they must secretly enjoy knowing that they're in charge of everyone's emotional state in the next three or four seconds.

And two, as Chris Shelley quite rightly points out, the audio feedback from the crowd will make the referee realise how effective their gesturing was.

So it's just a great moment.

Yeah, and as Chris said there, it's very important that the referee gets the particular aspects of the body language right here.

Yeah, talk me through this.

I need to know.

I think a lot of it comes down to whether you're pointing to the spot or whether you've got your palm out flat to signify the goal kick.

I think

that's the right signal, isn't it?

A flat palm with an outstretched arm facing downwards is

goal kick.

A point obviously to the spot, but still, I don't think you would point for a goal kick, would you?

You wouldn't point to the six-yard line.

No, now I think about it, I think you're right.

No, I think it's easier to make it clearer when you're giving a penalty because you can point right at the spot and you can kind of be quite exaggerated.

We've seen refs do that.

They almost crouch down and point to the spot to really emphasise it.

That's harder to do with the goal kick.

I mean, you almost need to do a kind of waving your hands out, like the crossing to say it's not a penalty.

It's not a

no,

let's stop here.

You can't overcomplicate it by denying the fact that it's a penalty.

No one was asking, like, there's no suggestion it should have been a penalty in your minds.

You can't rule out something that you don't think could even possibly be the case, right?

You're overcomplicating it.

But there is

maybe, but there are a lot of people that would be quite an effective way because the question you're asking here is, is that a penalty?

And then they answer it.

No.

But the crossing of the arms, Dave, would raise the question about whether it might have been a penalty or not.

And you're actually considering it.

You can't do that.

You've got to be out there.

You can shake your head.

But refs shake their head all the time, don't they?

They shake their head or they say, no, no way.

Yeah, headshake, all right.

Headshake, I'll accept.

I think you're right, Charlie.

I mean, I can envisage like a referee sort of running or running or walking backwards, doing not a really exaggerated, but doing the little crossed arms thing and then just pointing to, you know, no, goal kick, sort of in the same movement rather than making it a big thing.

But this also often happens, not just for penalties, but this can even sort of raise the ire of fans when they think it should be a corner and you get given a goal, you know, it gets given as a goal kick rather than a corner.

Obviously, that's quite routine.

But again, there's always a little moment because there'll be appeals from players and then you see.

And I always, it's something that I notice on TV, when the director isn't going to show the referee awarding a goal kick, which is not an interesting development.

But if I'm unsure

while

watching the game and I think it's a corner for my team and I'm watching the game and then they do they go to like a close-up of the player who might have just had the shot or the cross and you're still not sure you're trying to work out has he been is he has he been given a corner is that player getting into position or is he running back?

Yes, 100%.

Because that close-up shot, you're working out whether they're moving, are they walking away from the goal?

Yeah, but then you're trying to work out: would that player walk away from the goal anyway to prepare for a corner?

Is he running if the faster he runs, the more he's obviously trying to get back into position for the goal gig?

That's so spot on!

Unbelievable.

TV directors don't help us sometimes.

I'm telling you, this is great.

Absolutely brilliant.

Thank you, Chris Shelley.

That's the listeners' fascinations for this month.

We'll be back very shortly with their irritations.

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Oh, look at that!

That is wonderful!

Welcome back to Football Clichés.

We've done your fascinations for October.

It's time for your niche Football League irritations and we kick things off with David Triggs.

My irritation is the assumption from commentators that there's only ever exactly five players that want to take a penalty in a penalty shootout.

You hear it quite a lot that this assumption that as soon as they get to the sixth penalty taker that this person didn't want to take one.

There is absolutely no logic behind it in my view and it infuriates me every time I hear it.

Thank you for allowing me to vent.

Is it a wild assumption, Charlie?

I mean,

how many players in an average finishing 11 of a game would you expect to be properly keen on taking a penalty in a shootout and not bottling it?

Yeah, I mean I can see why, like, because yeah, it's typically will be that, and now we're down to those who didn't put their hands up straight away or who you know weren't so keen on taking it which I get as an assumption which I mean yeah they weren't being

if you're taking if you're taking it sick you weren't marching in going I'll take one boss I'll take one boss well unless you were and you're like please let me go fifth or four no fuck off we got great we've got five great penalty takers any of you son you're a left back you might want you might have just or you might have six really good penalty takers and you might be really keen it's quite hard with penalties isn't it because you kind of i don't know you forget these are elite athletes who you know who will really back themselves you kind of assume they're all just like, you know, weasels who are like, yeah, very happy not to take, which is, which, but the reality of that probably is true of some players, like, because it is still such a big moment.

They get rattled, yeah, completely.

No, I'm sure there will have been instances where, you know, the players who were sixth, seventh, even eighth, you know, were keen, but there just wasn't space.

We had a penalty shootout for Ribblesdale earlier this season in a first round cup game.

We had five lads who put their hands up straight away and I said, right, you're the five.

We'll work out the order.

And then we did have someone that went, I'll take sixth.

like wow they stepped up and said if it goes I'll take the sixth and I think you know at elite level obviously we've talked a lot about how it seems that penalty you know long penalty shootouts seemingly more common these days I wouldn't be surprised to see like let's say at the World Cup next year if there's a if there's a big high-profile penalty shootout that somebody from the athletics say might write a piece and we might get a bit of detail which says they really put the emphasis on the sixth taker yeah you know they wanted they wanted this player to be sixth because if they go to sudden death, they wanted to have him ready to get it done quickly.

Not implausible.

Not implausible.

I mean, this could be easily studied, Charlie.

All we need to find out is just look back at penalty shootouts that went to at least six penalties for one team and collate all the players who took the sixth penalty in these shootouts because it would have been that the order probably is unlikely to change in this situation.

If it gets the sixth penalty, you're not going to bump someone up the order because it suddenly becomes more urgent.

So it's fairly set in stone.

So we'll know who the sixth penalty taker is forever and work out, A, what their penalty record is generally, and two, if we think that they are penalty-worthy players.

So we could do this.

Look at the contrast in that Euro 96 penalty shootout, the sixth men.

Ignat Garrisongate, who is your archetype, he clearly didn't want to take one, had, I think, had taken one penalty before, which he'd missed and was just like, you know, not after five brilliant takers.

But Germany's was Andy Moller, wasn't it?

Who scored and like did that peacocky celebration?

Like he might, he could feasibly have been like, no, I want to take one of the first five.

He looked like the type who'd back himself.

And yeah, it was an absolutely belting belting penalty as well dave i'm just thinking about in my in my wider life when do i display sixth penalty taker energy and uh it's when we're when when i'm in a restaurant and uh i will never ask for the bill i'm i'm not a i'm not a bill asker nor am i a prompter for service if things are taking a little bit longer i would you know on tour i always dispatch charlie echelshare because i know he loves he loves to force the issue he's got more impatience than me and i'll send him off so i i like sort of just deploying him as the trojan horse in these situations to be clear yes.

Certainly with asking for the bill, because I think that I have no compunction about that, because that's not like rude in any way.

Honestly, not.

I know.

I would have

been wary.

I would be warrior of saying like, well, not pushing, but I'd be wary of asking like, is our food coming anytime soon?

But I would still do it, but I would be sure to try not to do it in a...

dickish kind of way.

Like in the Georgian restaurant in Cardiff.

We arrived, we thought we'd have a nice early lunch.

We were there for about 45 minutes waiting in an entirely empty Georgian restaurant, which I chose because I thought it might be an exotic choice.

Clearly wasn't very popular.

And Charlie, not around, walked over to the back of the restaurant and went, Is the food coming anytime soon?

And then the answer was, yes, four minutes.

I mean, it was, we were literally the only people in the room.

I'm honestly really curious to know what happened, whether they were just so shocked by us being whether they had to run out and get some food or something.

The long walk.

The lonely long walk.

It was like that penalty long walk and then back to tell you the bad news that it was four minutes.

Trying to keep a really straight face as he walked over to the desk, not a rattle.

Oh, thank you for that, David Triggs.

You're absolutely right.

Right.

Second irritation comes from Tom Atkins.

My niche footballing irritation is lists of finds in Premier League dressing rooms.

They're always leaked on social media like they're some amazing insight into the culture of an elite team.

Whereas in fact all they are is a list of rules about punctuality and kit, which aren't even petty enough to be interesting.

Now Charlie, you know, you you know, we are starved of true insight into the inner workings of elite-level football clubs, but I feel like I do see this list published on social media about every three weeks or so, and it seems to be a sort of slightly grainier version each time.

I think it's Aston Villa.

It always seems to be Aston Villa, the one because so it's just the same one every time, isn't it?

It is, yeah, I mean, in the age of no information and no access, I don't, I think this isn't any worse than lots of things.

I mean, you know, we are, as many of the MHD listener entries over the last few months have kind of revealed, like we're constantly, anyone with any sort of information, like people have said, you know, at a ground where they spot how much time is going to be added on first and, you know, that kind of thing, like any information is so precious that I think that I would find it annoying if people were presenting it as like revealed, you know, which I'm sure would happen if it was at like a big club, you know, the 12-point rule plan that fired Arna Slots Liverpool to the title, which would 100% happen that we would kind of massively over-index this and sort of find causality between these, as was detailed there, very normal,

prosaic set of rules and equate it with a team's success or not.

But I think just as a thing, I don't mind it so much because I don't really think people do overstate its importance too much.

Maybe they do, and I've just missed it.

You know, the fines, the disciplining culture could be a hindrance or a help, depending on which way you want to talk about it.

Without with all of this stuff, that's what's so ludicrous about it.

It's like you just completely frame it around the ultimate outcome.

You know, yeah, they were, you know, they were suffocated by these rules.

They didn't have any room to breathe.

I'm surprised, in a way, that this element of dressing room culture still exists in this day and age when you've got, you know, clubs are essentially, they are essentially massive companies full of very high salaried employees.

And yet they've got this sort of ad hoc discipline system that people can be fined this and that for being late or whatever it might be.

And even the same thing with like bonuses.

And like you still hear of like players running the dressing room, like the players' ball, and like it's it's it's it's a weird sort of hangover from like the 80s and 90s era that still exists today.

And it's completely insulated from the from the management team and the coaching staff as well.

It's like it's run by the players, you're absolutely right.

But yeah, all the money goes towards the Christmas party, doesn't it?

It's yeah, properly old school, it hasn't really sort of moved on from there, you're absolutely right.

But the um, the leaked find list, um, that always gets shared around is the Aston Villa one from 2022 under Stephen Gerrard.

So that did the rounds July 2022.

Uh, but I a simple Google of it brings up stories from July 2025 of leaked Aston Villa fines list, which is just the same one again.

And so I'm looking at it and it's this knackered old JPEG of a grainy list of, you know, no flip-flops in the shower, £100, forgetting cakes on birthday, £50 per day.

These are huge sums, Charlie.

And I suspect that's what captures a lot of people's sort of imaginations.

That's quite a lot of money.

What's wrong with flip-flops in the shower?

Unhygienic?

That shouldn't be a £100 fine, should it?

So it's more hygienic, isn't it?

What if you've got varoucas?

Yeah.

Snuss Snuss being left anywhere is 200 quid.

Forgetting your recovery leggings.

I mean, that's modern woke nonsense, isn't it?

Fairly grave to find out about that.

Recovery leggings.

Oh, hey.

Andy, I'm wearing some of those new recovery leggings, actually.

Okay.

Under my skin.

You used to call those DVT socks.

What fines would you introduce on the Football Clichés Live Tour, Dave?

I reckon it's £50 for every time Dave doesn't like his hotel and just goes and books another one ad hoc.

Yeah, well I do sort of live slightly in fear that you're going to try and fine me for not being 20 minutes early for a train.

There I was at Leeds station for the train up to Glasgow, one of the most crucial trains of all that I booked so far in advance.

And Dave arrived at the station with 12 minutes to spare and I was going spare.

A mere 12 minutes.

It's almost like Dave travels around for a living almost all the time and is actually quite comfortable with these margins, but that's fine.

I, however, am not um but yeah um yeah 12 pound fine for for charlie's just talking randomly in the dressing room before a before a show out of sheer nerves there are things yeah i do i will get i no i'll be the first to admit this i will get things in my head that i then really struggle to get out like like a foo fiddles or something um and yeah a fine would be a good deterrent yeah hold my hands up just a little insight into how we work um right brilliant stuff from tom atkins finally socrates 1882 is back again he was in the adjudication panel and now he's in listeners at Mezz at Harland Dicks to round things off with your irritations for October.

My minor irritation, my Mezz Harland Dicks submission is around the use of those and that in football discourse.

To give you an example, a commentator or a pundit might say, into those half spaces or into that bottom corner.

What's wrong with the?

Tell me which half spaces.

I don't need to know which bottom corner because I can see it's the bottom corner.

It's not that bottom corner.

I think this is just a shortcut and a shorthand for pundits to try and seem more intelligent.

But those are that in place of the.

Charlie, there must be a grain of truth in the logic here that it does make your observation look a little bit more educated if you say those little pockets rather than the little pockets.

But why?

Well, also, though, I mean, I'm glad that those has been brought up because those often isn't, because there's, you know, typically there's a lot of like them players or, you know, them chances rather than those.

Those

often does, yeah, one of them, but like those often gets overused.

You also hear it with a like, you know, he gets it onto that left foot, which makes more sense in a kind of like, you know, someone's...

I think you attain like that left foot status.

That left foot of his.

Yeah, but you know, like an Iron Robin or a Salah or someone, like, and he just gets it onto that left foot.

But you wouldn't say that about any old players

left foot.

So, so there is, there are some subtle usages of that that do make a bit more sense.

I always used to notice this in one very particular context when I used to work with Ray Parla, again, on the same, on the aforementioned round the grounds show on talk sport whenever talking about the championship without fail he would say you know look that championship it's so tough down there he would always say that championship never the never the championship never heard that so I don't know does it is it more definite is it more you're pointing towards it and going that championship there that that characterizable thing that we are now talking about that has is well documented let's take your example Charlie of that left foot it's a it's probably a close cousin of that night in Barcelona.

You know, that free kick that he scored.

That goal.

That thing you already know about.

So if I say his left foot, it will feel like I've only just discovered it and he's got a documented thing in my brain.

So this, maybe that's it.

Yeah, I think so.

And I'm just trying to think, like, with those hearts, you know, he just gets more.

That's more subtle.

Yeah.

Yeah, he just, you know, he just gets into those little pockets.

That, again, implies that they are sort of those pockets are specific to him in some ways, in some way.

you know there are certain players who you talk about in those terms those kind of elusive hard to pick up players you know and he and he'll just kind of move over into those pockets of space this is really subtle stuff Dave but it's definitely a thing because if you if you present the difference between yeah he gets into he gets into little pockets he operates in little pockets but if it's he operates in those little pockets it it basically narrows the your focus and his and the and the speaker's focus into making those pockets seem as if they are something that's that's worth studying they're not just incidental, they are the thing that we have we've been worrying, we've been thinking about for a while and they're starting to become well-documented.

Those little pockets, they're interesting.

So it's both boasting about your knowledge, but also accepting the fact that other people might be talking about it as well.

This is fascinating to me.

Saying those pockets of space is slightly less defined

than if you said

he's in that pocket of space or the pocket of space.

He's popping up in those areas rather than that specific bit of the pitch every time, which I think think makes sense because it is a you know like the the hole it's not a there's no markings for the hole on the pitch is it it's just sort of these holes we know where it is right you can't say those holes

yeah you still don't say that holes on top of those holes

oh wow this is fantastic um yeah thank you to socrates 1882 this well that was pure clichés and uh someone with a bit more of a grasp on proper linguistics uh might have another theory on that please get in touch if you do that was sensational stuff thanks to you charlie ecclesia thank you thanks to to you, David Walker.

Thank you.

Thanks to everyone for listening and contributing and everyone who came to the live shows for Cliches Live 2025.

It's been an absolute pleasure.

I mean, honestly, honestly, eight joyous nights chatting with people of like-minded football sensibilities every single night.

And yeah, can't wait to do it again.

Genuinely, it's been really good, not to dwell on it too much, but it's great to meet people after the shows.

And you know what I like as well?

I've really enjoyed about this tour in particular, is you're starting to make friends with each other.

Yeah.

At one day, you won't need us anymore.

I know.

That is really heartwarming.

On that note, actually, do you remember, I can't remember, this was on, we got, um, someone pointed us something on this and fair play, and it was about that time where there was like a date where people met on a first date off Tinder or one of the apps, and then they realized they had like a mutual love of football clichés.

But that was a few years ago.

Whatever happened to that couple?

If that was you,

but yes, I would like to, that is a mere addendum.

It really has been amazing to meet so many people.

And yeah, I think as Dave says, that's spot on seeing people bonding these live show drinks.

Well, there we are.

And thanks for everyone for listening.

We'll be back on Tuesday.

See you then.

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.

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