Comic Marc Maron On Grief, Cats, And Being Openhearted

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This is fresh air.

I'm Terry Gross.

If you were to describe comic and actor Mark Maron's vibe, it might be something like this.

My brain's just going all the time, and people say, well, you have to rest your mind.

And I'm like, I don't even understand what you just said.

I don't even know what that means.

If my brain rests for even three seconds, some other part of my brain goes, you want me to open the worry folder?

Got a big list here.

Let's do it.

What do you want to think about all day long?

That's Mark Maron from his new HBO comedy special, Panicked.

In one story from this special, he describes an incident last summer when so much of L.A.

was on fire, and he lives in L.A.

It was looking like his home was safe until the day when a cloud of black smoke started covering the neighborhood.

He panicked, understandably, threw together a go bag, grabbed all the cash in his house, and wrangled his three cats, getting one in a carrier, one in a hamper, and one in an Amazon box.

He tape-shut the box, punctured breathing holes, and got all the cats in the car.

So I say goodbye to my house.

I get into my car.

I have no plan.

I'm just going to drive away from the smoke.

And within five minutes, every cat evacuated its bowels and emptied its bladder into their respective containers.

So now my car smells like a poorly run shelter.

And my only thought is, f ⁇ , I'm going to have to throw this car away.

Because whatever is leaking out of Buster's box

is never going to come out of that seat.

So I don't really know where I'm going.

And I decide, well, maybe you should get some real carriers for the other two cats.

You know, and I was going to go to Petco and, you know, get the stuff.

And I thought Petco opened at 9, nine but it opened at ten so now I'm in the parking lot of a Petco in a Toyota that smells like

with three cats going

and it was kind of a profound moment because I realized this is who I am at the end of the world

this is where I end up

That's another excerpt of Mark Maron's new comedy special Panicked, which premieres on HBO August 1st and will stream on Max.

There's more Marin news.

A new documentary about him called Are We Good was shown at the South by Southwest and Tribeca Film Festivals this year.

He co-stars with Owen Wilson in the Apple TV Plus comedy series Stick, which is set in the golf world.

It's been renewed for a second season.

Marin is one of the voices in the new animated film, The Bad Guys 2.

And I'm looking forward to seeing him in the new Springsteen movie, which is called Springsteen Deliver Me from Nowhere.

It's adapted from a book about the making of Springsteen's Springsteen's album, Nebraska.

Marin is continuing to do stand-up, but he recently announced that he's going to end his popular podcast, WTF, sometime in the fall.

That's a big deal.

He started it in 2009 in the early days of podcasting.

Interviewing comics and actors was a way to connect with people after he got sober and thought he'd never make it as a comic.

I'll be really sorry to see it end.

Mark Marin, welcome back to Fresh Air.

Hey, Terry, great to be here.

It's great to have you, and I enjoyed your new special and documentary.

Just want to let everybody know your house was fine.

It didn't catch on fire, and the neighbors couldn't even figure out why you fled.

Do you know what the black smoke was?

Yeah, it was just smoke coming in from the Eaton fire.

The primary problem with

the entire situation outside of the horror of LA burning was that I really had a hard time understanding the app that we all sort of downloaded to keep keep abreast of all the fires everywhere.

And it just, I didn't understand the color coding and

the house was never really in danger

in as much as we knew at that time.

It just felt like we were all in danger.

And I just I snapped that morning.

Well, in keeping with the theme of panicked, the title of your special, I was listening to your podcast the other night and you'd just gotten back from New Mexico where you were mostly by yourself.

And you described your brain as being on fire.

You just couldn't stop thinking, and a lot of it was catastrophic thinking.

You locked your rental keys in the car.

You accidentally set off the fire alarm while you were cooking, and the firemen arrived in full gear while the AAA guys were there.

How come this isn't a time to think about how varied and successful your career has become and just like feel good about that?

You've got all this stuff that's coming out now.

Well, that's a good question.

You know, and it's something I ask myself daily that, you know, the reality of my life

is pretty good.

But for some reason, I guess it's just the way that I'm wired that it that's all like my brain is like, you know, well, that's all fine.

You know, I'm glad that this is all working out.

But right now, in my head, in what I perceive as my life, there are all these things that are out of my control.

Some of them could get worse.

Why'd I do this?

Why'd I do that?

You know, in terms of making decisions, I think, sadly, my comfort zone is

that state of anxiety and self-questioning and dread.

And I'd like to fix it.

I tried some medicine, but I don't think it's working.

I think I can conclusively say after the last week that it's probably not working.

You said you've been diagnosed with obsessional anxiety.

Can you explain what that is, what that means?

It sounded good to me.

When the guy said it, he said, I think what you have is obsessional anxiety.

I'm like, that sounds perfect.

I think it is just the inability to stop ruminating about

the problems your brain is probably manufacturing on its own, that there's just some inability.

that I have.

I have an inability to compartmentalize.

So everything sort of happens at the same frequency, whether it's problems with my cat, problems with my house,

problems with the world.

And I really have to

parse it it and

take each one separately in order to compartmentalize it a little bit.

Today is okay.

Today.

Good.

Yeah.

Let's keep it that way.

You've also said that, and you said this very recently, that you feel untethered knowing that the podcast is going to end.

Can you describe the feeling of

knowing inside that it's time to end it while also knowing you're going to feel a little bit lost without it?

Well, sure.

I think that, you know, Brendan and I.

Brendan's your producer, and you've been working together for many, many years.

We have a long and very good and

real professional relationship, and our personal relationship is, you know, well-boundaried and,

you know, healthy.

But we're very specific in how we do the show.

As you know, you do audio and the work that goes into it.

And we've done a lot.

Our commitment was to do a new show every Monday and Thursday.

And we honored that no matter what, no matter where I was, no matter what I was working on, no matter whether I barely made it to a microphone to do the thing.

But all that to say that it gets to a point with this thing where

if you don't have to keep going and you've done an amazing body of work and you're exhausted on a lot of levels and the media landscape has changed, if you don't have to keep doing it, why just keep doing it because you can?

If you're burnt out and you're concerned about your engagement with it or whether the quality will start to diminish or whether you're just doing it because

why not?

It really became a decision about if we stop, we stop with a body of work.

I just don't think there's any shame in stopping if moving forward would compromise either my or Brendan's vision of the thing or our ability to do it.

So we've maintained our audience all these years, and a lot of them are very close to me.

And oddly, the decision made sense to a lot of them.

They were upset, but they were, you know, we get it.

So how tied up is your identity with the podcast?

And what do you feel like you're losing by ending it?

Well, my identity publicly is obviously, you know, that.

It's the podcast and how people engage in it.

For me personally, it's more of an emotional and psychological and on some level,

I don't know if I would call it necessarily spiritual, but these conversations are very real conversations for me.

And they happen in real time, and I'm with a person, really getting to know them and connecting with them.

And that is kind of nourishing.

for the spirit and the soul as human beings.

And it's something that we all crave and probably don't do enough of in person.

But because of my job, I get to do it.

I sit across from interesting people.

Sometimes I give them coffee.

Sometimes they hang out in my house.

You know, we have moments before and after the podcast.

It's a real sort of afternoon date kind of situation.

And I think that coming out of that, I do have not a panic, but I have time to process it.

And I do believe we're making the right decision.

But I have to get some support system involved or some sort of expansion of my social life where I do spend quality time with individuals, having the kind of conversations I had in the studio, or just similar types of connection to kind of maintain my sanity.

You aren't comfortable about saying yes to a documentary being made about you.

That documentary has been made.

It's been shown at two festivals.

I'm hoping it opens in theater sometime soon.

But you were reluctant to do it.

Why were you reluctant and what convinced you to say, okay?

Well, you should know that I'm reluctant to do almost anything.

More work, more anxiety.

Well, it's just for me,

when something is offered to me or

people want to do something, all I think about is like, oh, man, is the process.

Like, you know, when do we start?

When's it going to end?

Where are we going?

You know, what time is there?

Should I drive there?

Do I park?

Like, so all that stuff.

Once I get into something, I'm okay.

But my first response is always like i don't want to do that where how how am i going to do that it's so

but with the with the doc uh well stephen they suggested it and and i i wasn't stephen fine arts the director yeah stephen fine arts approached me and he's initially the focus was going to be you know me coming back into comedy you know post-covid you know post the loss of uh my partner lynn shelton and kind of the arc being you know moving towards that that hbo special from bleak to dark.

I mean, that was initially the idea of it.

So this guy, Stephen Feinarts, who I knew,

he started following me around with cameras.

And I think my reluctance was just, I'm not worried about me talking or being, you know, being able to be honest with the documentary, but it's just that you got a guy following you with a camera, you know, or two guys, and they're always around.

So it was really that reluctance

to have that in my life that was really why I was,

you know, didn't want to necessarily commit to it.

But I did.

And then what I realized after watching the documentaries, there's a tone I have that is, you know, when he's just shooting me, that isn't really

in some parts like a natural, comfortable tone.

It's me being annoyed with Steven.

So I said to him, I said, you know, I look cranky through this whole thing because you were kind of annoying.

He goes, well,

well, yeah, maybe, but I think that's kind of who you are.

I'm like, really?

All right.

Oh, that's an interesting complication.

Well, I said to him, I said, you know, this movie, when I watch it, as if I weren't me, it seems to be the portrait of a cranky, sensitive guy who, despite himself, succeeded somehow.

And Stephen was like, yeah, that's exactly the movie.

I'm like, I don't know if I, I guess that's okay.

I don't think that's exactly me.

It was very helpful in me seeing myself.

How did it help?

Well, because

I kind of know who I am as much as I can from my perspective and my point of view and in my body, but to see how one moves through the world really from the outside and through another person's point of view is very revealing and a bit humbling

to see just

how kind of

nutty I am and self-possessed in a lot of

strange ways and compulsive in my relationship with my cats, and also my relationship to how I work and how I create.

It was very interesting to see that from the outside because it is a bit more

strained and tormented than I perceive it to be living it.

Are there things that you resolve to change after seeing yourself in the documentary?

Well,

I think that

I could probably relax a little more, I think.

I really thought that I was past the point of being very hard on myself all the time.

And I think it kind of revealed to me that, you know, maybe I just frame that differently, but I still am, you know, very hard on myself.

And I think that has also...

a connection to the anxiety that there is something about the way my brain works and the way that I

take care of myself that is very

harsh And I think I can let up on that.

That might be good for me.

Aaron Powell, part of the new documentary and part of your new comedy special is about grief.

Your partner, Lynn Shelton, died in May of 2020.

This was just about three months into the pandemic.

She had undiagnosed acute myeloid leukemia.

She was 54.

She was a director, and she had directed you in the movie Sword of Trust.

She directed a few episodes of the TV series that you were in, Glow.

She directed you in a couple of episodes of your own series, Marin.

And this was before you became a couple, so you knew each other pretty well.

And you were very devastated.

We've talked about this on the show.

You talked about it in your previous comedy special.

You've also, of course, talked about it on your podcast.

Have you found that there's different layers of grief?

Like, does what you're feeling and the memories in your mind and the things that trigger you, does that keep changing over time?

Yes,

I think for me,

and I definitely, you know, I close the special with really exactly this type of thing, is that you don't really know when they're going to happen.

And I think it's kind of different for me in that we had not really established a life together.

We had

a relationship, but

I don't walk around my house, you feeling an emptiness, but

there is sort of an emptiness of

possibility.

There's an emptiness of

her presence in my life and the way that impacted me.

And also there's this kind of belief that I've gotten, I wouldn't call it cynical, but a little bit callous to the possibility.

of opening my heart again because it was, you know, she pried it open.

I'm not real easy with that.

And I think when I have moments of overwhelming connection to the grief, it's that feeling of having that open-heartedness and having that love in my life that was,

it took a long time for it to come for me.

And so when I feel that,

it's kind of overwhelming.

And it's that feeling of absence of that type of love that gets me.

So

it's kind of there daily, but it gets to a point where it's not.

And then it just all of a sudden it is.

As I know, you know, I lost my husband, Francis Davis, in April.

So

it's pretty recent.

And I've had like two dreams that felt like visitations.

I mean, they were so real.

He felt so present.

And

I honestly don't know what to make of it.

I mean, I believe that people live forever in your heart,

but I don't believe that, you know, I don't believe in ghosts, I don't believe in an afterlife.

And yet,

you know, tell me he wasn't really there

because it sure felt like he was.

And I wonder if you've had dreams like that and what you make of them.

Like,

how do you interpret that?

I have had dreams like that, and they still happen sporadically.

but at in the early stages of of the the loss and the grief yeah i had very visceral very real dreams and she would say things like you know one time she said uh this is real

and and that's kind of poetic because you know it could have meant you know our feelings for each other or it could have meant that she's gone But I don't know who told me, but I think it's just you should appreciate the visit.

Why read into it you know like

no no that's how I felt like come back come come back and visit again but I was talking to somebody who's deeply religious and and she was saying that when she had dreams like that she'd tell the person go away and don't come back you're dead you don't belong here that was so opposite of of how i was feeling no i i think i like i i love seeing her you know like one time she just you know i i saw her she just you know kind of held my face and looked at me.

Like, I don't,

I'll, I'll go mystical occasionally, but who's to know whether, you know, ghosts or religion or

any of that stuff?

You, you know, we're all operating at this frequency of life.

So, you know, if you want to believe anything, you know, that whether, you know, people never go, whether it's in your heart or their energy or whatever, you know, what difference does it make?

I think that that feeling you have when you wake up after having a dream like that, it's kind of brutal, but it's also kind of beautiful to, you know, to be able to check in.

You know, it's

okay.

And for whatever reason, I've just grown to appreciate it, but you do wake up pretty sad.

Yeah.

Okay, I have to reintroduce you here because we need to take a break.

So here we go.

If you're just joining us, my guest is Mark Maron.

He has a new comedy special that will start premiering on HBO August 1st.

It's called Panicked and will be streaming on Max.

And he also has a new documentary that's been shown this year at the South by Southwest and Tribeca Film Festivals.

We'll be back after a short break.

I'm Terry Gross and this is Fresh Air.

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What are your thoughts about what happens after death?

And along with that, are you obsessing on your own mortality, having

lived through such a shocking, unexpected death?

I think I was always kind of obsessed with my own mortality in different ways.

You know, when I was younger, I was very anxiety filled and very

hypochondriacal.

You know, I always thought I was dying.

You know, for years and years, it took me a long time to get out from under the obsession on illness and illnesses that I thought I had.

That comes and goes.

You know, I had a father who was a doctor and he was kind of distracted most of the time.

So one way you can get a doctor's attention is by claiming you're dying.

So I think that was part of it.

But

I think that my sense of death is different now because I'm older.

You know, I'm going to be 62 next month and it's coming.

You know, as my friend Jerry Stahl says, you know, there's something in the mail for everybody.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And

I think what I know now is that it's coming.

You know, how I feel about that happening, it's on my mind.

Even if what I believe is nothing happens afterwards, and this is the end, there is sort of somehow my brain has been trying to bend that into kind of a timeless sort of beauty somehow.

That, you know, when you die, you're no longer in the living time frame.

And all of history that is about to happen is going to happen with you in this stationary place.

So I think there's a spiritual idea there that

you are free.

But I don't know what happens after.

And of course, it's terrifying.

And I think the one thing I learned from somebody passing, especially in the situation that I was in when it was COVID and she had just moved all her stuff down here, is that

what's left for everyone to go through,

I kind of want to make sure that's kind of in order because it's a very daunting and sad process.

I've been going through that too, because the bureaucracy of death is really deep and time consuming.

And just as you're trying to face the fact that your life is going to be completely changed now in so many ways, you're also having to do this paperwork and go to the bank and get the death certificates and figure out who needs them.

And

it just seems like endless.

It just, it doesn't feel fair.

It's like there's got to be an easier way of dealing with the bureaucracy of death.

I don't know what that way would be.

Aaron Powell, Jr.: Well, I think it's efficient estate planning if that is the case.

A lot of that stuff, that particular stuff, I didn't have to deal with, but I had all her stuff to deal with, and it was COVID.

And people, you know, I had her friends come by, and, you know, I'm sending articles of clothing and pieces of jewelry to her family members that wanted them.

And so it was a lot more, I guess the word is visceral and things I could hold.

Like, you know, the people that loved her, you know, what do you want?

But recently, I had Rosemary DeWitt on my show, who worked with Lynn closely on one of her films and was kind of a Lynn surrogate in the movie, I believe.

And I think she felt very close to Lynn.

And I was holding on to this very unique kind of green leather jacket that Lynn had just had relined.

And I was holding on to it because it was really

a part of her.

And I realized when Rosemary was there that she should have it, you know, so

I gave her that jacket and it fit her perfectly.

And I just felt like, well, that is

Lynn continuing to

be there, you know, for somebody that loved her.

And it was kind of a powerful moment.

Yeah, yeah,

I can imagine that.

You found something that Lynn wrote that said, if I could get Mark to love himself, maybe I can get him to love me.

Did you know that she thought that before you read it

well you you know i i'm i'm i'm kind of a tough customer emotionally and it's it's heartbreaking on one level uh on another level i i think she succeeded um but yeah i i think generally i i am kind of insulated

you know emotionally but what's interesting in talking about the podcast and and also talking about stand-up i i'm very open you know hearted when people are going to leave.

You want to elaborate on that?

No, I mean, like, you know, I can, you know, I can be all in in a conversation with somebody who's on the podcast for now where I can open up and feel the emotions and not feel threatened in any way.

And feel like it's all about them.

Well, kind of.

But you talk about yourself a lot, too.

Right.

Like, I can really kind of like engage it fully because, you know, there is

boundary there or a context.

You know, they're going to leave.

So if I'm crying with a guest and they go, it's that is the nature of the show.

Or if I'm on a stand-up stage and I'm sharing things that are very personal, though they're crafted to be funny, I still am very open.

But when it comes to interpersonal relationships or relationships that are ongoing,

I'm a little guarded.

I'm a little defensive because I feel like I could get hurt or I could be diminished somehow or I'm being

manipulated.

There's a lot of weird triggers I have in personal relationships that kept me kind of

lonely within them for a long time.

Well, I want to play another clip from the documentary, Are We Good?

This will speak for itself.

So here it is.

Maybe I don't understand the whole nature of companionship.

You know what I mean?

It's like I don't feel the need for companionship to ride out the rest of life.

Hopefully, you know, my money will hold up.

And, you know, when I become ill, I have enough money to be taken care of.

But I don't want to watch someone die again or have somebody watch me die again.

The reason why that clip, well, one of the reasons why that clip really struck me is I remember like a couple of times I ran into women who had lost their husbands.

And they said to me, I would never marry again.

And this was you know, a few years ago, I was younger.

I said, why?

And they said, well, I could never go through that kind of pain again of watching somebody be so sick and then die and losing them.

I can't let myself do that.

And I'd think to myself, yeah, but you're depriving yourself of possibly a very deep, loving relationship.

And now that I lost my husband and he had two like long-term chronic diseases, you know, I watched him kind of lose so much of his life, live in such a kind of shrinking world.

I understand what they were saying.

It's just so painful to watch somebody you love go through that.

And, you know, the end is, of course, always hard for the person who's dying, especially if it's, you know, if it's a process and not a sudden thing.

And so I understand why one wouldn't want to put themselves through something like that again.

So I thought about that when I heard you say, I don't want to watch somebody die again or have them watch me die.

And I was wondering if you could share a little more of what's going on in your mind when you say that.

Well, I think that's kind of shifting because I hear what I said in the documentary.

And when I said it, it sounds very, very lonely to me.

And recently, I've been sort of reflecting on the idea of like, well, who do I have?

You know, who's going to come?

You know, who's going to come to the hospital?

You know, and it's very sad.

So I think a lot of what I was saying there was kind of

probably a bit defensive, but I think honest, you know, because my dad is, you know, he's still being taken care of by his wife and he's still kind of

there, but he's got her.

But I do think a lot of that is just fear of my

own mortality.

But I don't know if I can stand by

that statement in the doc now.

I don't know.

I'm right at the edge of that stuff and it's a little scary.

I think it's kind of possible to hold both thoughts in your mind at the same time.

This fear of getting too close and having to watch somebody you love so much die while at the same time craving that kind of intimacy and companionship with somebody else.

The vulnerability of dying

is an interesting and horrifying reality to me, I think.

But as I see my father kind of disconnecting, there is a kind of beauty to it in a weird way.

That, you know, once you get past a point where you can take care of yourself and you do need to rely on other people, and so much of who you were is kind of, you know,

fading away or disconnected,

it's so profoundly sad.

But it is, I think there is a way to look at it as natural and as part of life.

And I think there may be something beautiful about it.

You have a girlfriend now, and you talk about her on your podcast.

Was it uncomfortable for you at first to feel like it was okay to have a girlfriend?

I don't know that it was,

you know, because it was after

Lynn passed away.

It was COVID.

It was a lonely time.

I was pretty shattered.

I think the intention was to, you know, spend time with somebody.

And it kind of, you know, evolved from there and kind of keeps going.

You're living alone now or you're living together?

Yeah.

Do you like living alone?

Absolutely.

What do you like about it?

I'm just so codependent by nature.

And I don't know if that's surprising to people because I am sort of

a cranky, you know, seemingly intense person that would not be a kind of person that would lose himself in somebody else.

But on a deep emotional level, I am immediately and very deeply codependent.

So it's almost impossible for me to exist in a house with somebody without wondering what they're doing.

Are they okay?

Where are they in the house?

What are we doing today?

What do you got going on later?

Like it's to the point where it would take up most of my mind.

And that's happened in the past.

Well, let's take a short break here.

If you're just joining us, my guest is Mark Maron.

His new comedy special, Panicked, premieres on HBO Friday, August 1st, and will stream on Max.

We'll be right back.

This is Fresh Air.

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So let's lighten things up and talk about the problems you're having with your cats.

Yeah, sure.

Your late cat Boomer became a celebrity in the feline world because you talked about him so much on your podcast.

And it seemed like you had a really good relationship.

Now you have three cats.

Charlie, I think, was astray, and he's become a real problem.

He has anxiety-induced colitis.

He defecates around the house, especially like when you're gone because he has like separation anxiety.

He beats up on the other cats.

And I had many cats.

You know, Boomer was one, but that crew, Monkey and LaFonda, they lived a long time

after Boomer.

It was funny because when Lynn was alive, you know,

she was with me when I had to put down La Fonda.

And then I only had

old Monkey, who was also kind of sick, and

Buster was a little younger.

And after Lynn passed away,

I was looking at Monkey, who was in the beginning of kidney disease.

I'm like, dude, you can't do it now.

We can't do it now.

You've got to hang out for a few more months, buddy.

And he did.

But right now, Charlie actually was born near my backyard.

There was a feral litter next door, and the mother was kind of moving these five or six kittens around, I imagine, for safety.

And she had left Charlie under my backstairs.

But I took him.

And he was very small, like two to three weeks old.

And he never really had a relationship with a cat mom.

You know, it was me.

He's deeply attached to me.

He doesn't really love other other cats.

He loves people.

And when I go away, you know, his brain kind of melts down.

He's anxious I'm gone, but then he thinks he needs to run the house and he's not really kind of capable of it.

And he starts beating up on the other cats.

The colitis business has settled down, but the aggression has not.

So how are you dealing with that?

I mean, cats

can be like a lot of fun and very relaxing when they're sitting on your lap and purring, but it's kind of upsetting when they start, you know, messing up, defecating around the house or peeing.

And it's hard to get the smell out.

Yeah, I've dealt with all that stuff, you know, but it's more the aggression, you know, and I need peace at the house.

Look, I don't have kids.

I live alone, but these cats, my connection with them is

pretty intense and kind of crazy.

I'm not a normal cat person.

I'm a little aggressive in how I talk to them.

I'm more of a like, what's up, Charlie?

What are we doing?

Where are we at?

What's going on?

It took me years to realize that's why I have, you know, I always have kind of tweaky cats.

I was like, why do I always get these nervous, jumpy cats?

Well, it might be me.

What you're saying is true.

It's more the aggression right now.

I really think that if I had peace among the cats, my whole life would fall into place in a lot of ways in terms of anxiety because you do want to go home and be able to relax and not just be constantly waiting for a cat to scream and then try to separate a vicious cat fight.

Something I want to mention from your documentary, there's a scene, and I think this is like during the COVID lockdown, when you're exercising with a trainer like out on the porch.

And man, you're doing some pretty strenuous exercises.

You look like really physically fit.

And you'd mentioned on your podcast that men's health is doing a story on you, which is not something I would have expected.

But I'm wondering if like being that like strong now and after doing all those workouts, assuming you're still doing them, has it made your mind and your body feel more connected?

Do you feel more comfortable in your body?

And does your brain feel more attached to it?

Have you been listening?

No.

Right.

Okay.

Yes,

I see your point.

Right.

Yes, right.

You know, that's what we've been discussing this whole time.

Yeah.

The state of panic and worry that you are always in.

Exactly.

Anxiety.

Exactly.

Constantly.

Exactly.

do i do look i i it's very important to me to to stay in shape and to stay you know i've not i've not i'm not crazy i'm not i'm not inherently crazy with it i i think a lot of it just comes from you know a basic uh you know body dysmorphia that was wired into me by my mother but but i i think it does uh help with the dopamine uh element in my brain uh but physically i guess i do i feel pretty connected i i feel you know pretty good.

I feel

better.

But I wouldn't say it's

on a day-to-day basis, I feel great ever.

Ever, yes.

Okay.

Let me reintroduce you again.

If you're just joining us, my guest is Mark Maron.

His new comedy special, Panicked, premieres on HBO Friday, August 1st, and will stream on Max.

The new documentary about him, Are We Good Yet, was shown at the South by Southwest and Tribeca Film Festivals this year.

We'll be right back after a short break.

I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.

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I want to ask you about the new Springsteen film that's coming out in October.

And it's based on a book about the making of Springsteen's album Nebraska, which started off as a series of like demo tapes of songs that he recorded at home.

And that became the album with the help of an engineer who, I guess, digitized it or whatever he did.

But you play that engineer in the film.

So there's some great actors in the film, including Jeremy Strong, who plays John Landau, who wrote about Springsteen early on and was his champion, became his friend, became somebody who worked with him.

Also, Jeremy Allen White from The Bear plays Springsteen.

So I'm particularly interested in Jeremy Strong.

He's such an intense actor and seems to have such an intense way of preparing.

I know from your podcast that you were really interested in how other actors prepare and you're always trying to learn from the actors you interview, like how they do what they do.

What did you learn from working with Jeremy Strong?

Well, the whole thing was kind of...

fun.

Like I got cast in that thing a while back.

I love Scott Cooper.

I think he's a great director.

I think he's got a real vision.

And he said, look, I want to put you in the Springsteen movie.

And I said, great.

So they put me in this little part.

And I guess I was having sort of a diva moment.

You know, I was like, Well, they could have just gotten anybody to do this.

You know, what?

It's like, no, there's hardly any part here.

And like, I was being a real baby.

And I actually texted Scott Cooper and I'm like, hey, dude, I'm just getting back into the script.

It doesn't seem like there's a lot for me to do here.

I don't know.

Am I wrong?

And he says, Look, man, you don't have to do it.

I just thought it would be fun.

But, you know, we'll do something else in the future.

It's up to you.

And I was like, okay, yeah, I'll do it.

You know, like,

I couldn't like.

So I looked at the script and I read the book.

And oddly, the producer of the film had heard Warren Zane's online.

I cover the book.

Yeah.

And that was part of the impetus of bringing the project to Scott Cooper.

Like, it started on WTF.

Oh, wow.

Good for you.

Yeah, well, I like the Zanes guys,

but I love the book Deliver Me From Nowhere.

I thought it was great.

And the story is really great.

So here's what happens.

So the fun part about doing this movie, I think for Jeremy Strong, too, is that like I get there and it's at the studio and it's a smallish studio and Video Village was just outside the door of the studio.

And for the entire shoot, the real Landau and the real Springsteen are sitting there at the monitors.

They're there.

All right.

So because I'd interviewed Bruce, it was one of those things we had talked about earlier and he remembered me.

So I kind of had a bit of a shorthand with him.

Like I wasn't a stranger.

So, you know, Scott would go cut and you just go hang out with Bruce.

How is that not fun?

Right.

but the thing was is a couple of things i was nervous about plotkin and i i told uh scott cooper i'm like there's not a lot on this guy i i don't know if you know what to do with him and he goes don't worry about it just just do the do the job just just be the engineer so i i had to learn how to you know operate the uh the levels and and have my hands on the board and understand the focus of everything and i had lines and the and the part is kind of pivotal in in getting the the tape into the format where they can put it on the record but i didn't know you know what bruce Bruce was going to think.

I'm worried because Plotkin's a real guy.

So I do the first scene where I'm talking and I'm doing the job and Scott goes cut.

And I walk out in the video village and Springsteen goes, you did it.

You're Chuck.

Good job.

You nailed it.

And I'm like, well, that is fortuitous and quite coincidental.

There are some clips in the new documentary about you from your really early days on stage performing comedy.

And I would never have recognized you physically, vocally, from the material.

Like nothing about you seemed recognizable to me.

Can you put us back to that period?

I was young.

To be honest with you, that's the cringiest stuff for me in that doc.

What I saw was a guy that was

full of this very shallow, very

kind of

transparent

swagger trying to be something that he really wasn't, uh, that I aspired to.

But my model was just like, I wanted to have this swagger.

I wanted to be shocking.

I wanted to say stuff, but I didn't have the gravitas or the chops to really do it.

But I kind of got away with it because I had enough, you know, moxie and persistence to do it.

But to me,

it was a lot of posturing, and it was kind of the vulnerability of that makes me sad a little.

It's funny because your comedy, and what makes you really special is the interiority, how much you reflect on

life and your inner life and your thoughts, your anxieties.

Like you're going deep inside in a performative way, as opposed to just trying to be like shocking or swagger.

You're kind of anti-swagger.

Well, right, but it took a long time for me to exercise that.

I was fueled by

aggravated insecurity and anger for a long time.

I've been doing this, you know, for almost 40 years, and I've done all the jokes.

I've taken all the chances.

I've said all the wrong things.

You know, I've lived this life thoroughly, taking many risks, and I've evolved as a person and as a comic into what I am now.

And I think in the new special, you know, I kind of explore some of that stuff.

But, but yeah, the decision to go inside was a very conscious decision many years ago in just sort of being able to own

your point of view.

If you talk about general things, the odds of another comic having a similar approach are great because there's thousands of comics.

But if you sit in yourself and come from your perspective on yourself and the world through that perspective, you have a better shot at maintaining a unique sense of self up there.

Well, Mark Marin, I wish you good luck with all the projects that you're involved with now, and I hope your anxiety eases.

Me too, Terry.

It's always great to talk to you.

Oh, great to talk with you.

Thank you so much.

Mark Marin's new HBO comedy special, Panicked, premieres this Friday, August 1st, and will stream on Max.

The documentary about him, Are We Good, has played at film festivals.

The release date hasn't yet been announced.

Marin co-stars in the Apple TV Plus series Stick, which has been renewed for a second season.

Tomorrow on Fresh Air.

NASA once symbolized America's highest ideals.

Now, many say it ceded its mission to Elon Musk.

Journalist Franklin Forer will join us to talk about how SpaceX became indispensable to the U.S.

government, what it means for the future of space exploration, and why Musk's dream of Mars may come at the cost of NASA's mission.

I hope you'll join us.

To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow follow us on Instagram at NPRFreshAir.

Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller.

Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.

Our managing producer is Sam Brigham.

Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-May Bodonato, Lauren Krenzel, Theresa Madden, Monik Nazareth, Faya Chaloner, Susan Yucundi, Anna Bauman, and John Sheehan.

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Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson.

Roberto Shorak directs the show.

Our co-host is Tanya Mosley.

I'm Terry Gross.

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