Comic Marc Maron On Grief, Cats, And Being Openhearted

Speaker 1 Support for this podcast and the following message come from Humana. Your employees are your business's heartbeat.

Speaker 1 Humana offers dental, vision, life, and disability coverage with award-winning service and modern benefits. Learn more at humana.com slash employer.

Speaker 2 This is fresh air. I'm Terry Gross.
If you were to describe comic and actor Mark Marin's vibe, it might be something like this.

Speaker 3 My brain's just going all the time, and people say, well, you have to rest your mind. And I'm like, I don't even even understand what you just said.
I don't even know what that means.

Speaker 3 If my brain rests for even three seconds, some other part of my brain goes, you want me to open the worry folder?

Speaker 3 Got a big list here. Let's do it.
What do you want to think about all day long?

Speaker 2 That's Mark Maron from his new HBO comedy special, Panicked. In one story from this special, he describes an incident last summer when so much of LA was on fire and he lives in LA.

Speaker 2 It was looking like his home was safe until the day when a cloud of black smoke started covering the neighborhood.

Speaker 2 He panicked, understandably, threw together a go bag, grabbed all the cash in his house, and wrangled his three cats, getting one in a carrier, one in a hamper, and one in an Amazon box.

Speaker 2 He tape-shut the box, punctured breathing holes, and got all the cats in the car.

Speaker 3 So I say goodbye to my house. I get into my car.
I have no plan. I'm just going to drive away from the smoke.

Speaker 3 And within five minutes, every cat evacuated its bowels and emptied its bladder into their respective containers.

Speaker 3 So now my car smells like a poorly run shelter.

Speaker 3 And my only thought is, I'm going to have to throw this car away.

Speaker 3 Because whatever is leaking out of Buster's box

Speaker 3 is never going to come out of that seat.

Speaker 3 So I don't really know where I'm going. And I decide, well, maybe you should get some real carriers for the other two cats.
You know, and I was going to go to Petco and, you know, get the stuff.

Speaker 3 And I thought Petco opened at nine, but it opened at 10. So now I'm in the parking lot of a Petco in a Toyota that smells like

Speaker 3 with three cats going,

Speaker 3 and it was kind of a profound moment because I realized this is who I am at the end of the world.

Speaker 3 This is where I end up.

Speaker 2 That's another excerpt of Mark Marin's new comedy special Panicked, which premieres on HBO August 1st and will stream on Max. There's more Marin news.

Speaker 2 A new documentary about him called Are We Good was shown at the South by Southwest and Tribeca Film Festivals this year.

Speaker 2 He co-stars with Owen Wilson in the Apple TV Plus comedy series Stick, which is set in the golf world. It's been renewed for a second season.

Speaker 2 Marin is one of the voices in the new animated film The Bad Guys 2. And I'm looking forward to seeing him in the new Springsteen movie, which is called Springsteen Deliver Me from Nowhere.

Speaker 2 It's adapted from a book about the making of Springsteen's album, Nebraska.

Speaker 2 Marin is continuing to do stand-up, but he recently announced that he's going to end his popular podcast, WTF, sometime in the fall. That's a big deal.

Speaker 2 He started it in 2009, in the early days of podcasting. Interviewing comics and actors was a way to connect with people after he got sober and thought he'd never make it as a comic.

Speaker 2 I'll be really sorry to see it end.

Speaker 2 Mark Marin, welcome back to Fresh Air.

Speaker 3 Hey, Terry, great to be here.

Speaker 2 It's great to have you, and I enjoyed your new special and documentary. Just want to let everybody know your house was fine.

Speaker 2 It didn't catch on fire, and the neighbors couldn't even figure out why you fled. Do you know what the black smoke was?

Speaker 3 Yeah, it was just smoke coming in from the Eaton fire.

Speaker 3 The primary problem with

Speaker 3 the entire situation outside of the horror of LA burning was that I really had a hard time understanding the app that we all sort of downloaded to keep abreast of all the fires everywhere.

Speaker 3 And it just, I didn't understand the color coding, and

Speaker 3 the house was never really in danger

Speaker 3 in as much as we knew at that time. It just felt like we were all in danger.
And I just, I snapped that morning.

Speaker 2 Well, in keeping with the theme of panicked, the title of your special, I was listening to your podcast the other night and you'd just gotten back from New Mexico where you were mostly mostly by yourself.

Speaker 2 And you described your brain as being on fire. You just couldn't stop thinking, and a lot of it was catastrophic thinking.
You locked your rental keys in the car.

Speaker 2 You accidentally set off the fire alarm while you were cooking, and the firemen arrived in full gear while the AAA guys were there.

Speaker 2 How come this isn't a time to think about how varied and successful your career has become and just like feel good about that? You've got all this stuff that's coming out now.

Speaker 3 Well, that's a good question.

Speaker 3 And it's something I ask myself daily that

Speaker 3 the reality of my life

Speaker 3 is

Speaker 3 pretty good. But for some reason, I guess it's just the way that I'm wired that it, that's all like my brain is like, you know, well, that's all fine.
You know, I'm glad that this is all working out.

Speaker 3 But right now, in my head, in what I perceive as my life, there are all these things that are out of my control. Some of them could get worse.
Why'd I do this? Why'd I do that?

Speaker 3 You know, in terms of making decisions.

Speaker 3 I think, sadly, my comfort zone is

Speaker 3 that state of anxiety and self-questioning and dread. And I'd like to fix it.

Speaker 3 I tried some medicine, but I don't think it's working. I think I can conclusively say after the last week that it's probably not working.

Speaker 2 You said you've been diagnosed with obsessional anxiety. Can you explain what that is, what that means?

Speaker 3 It sounded good to me. You know, when the guy said it, he said, I think what you have is obsessional anxiety.
I'm like, that sounds perfect. You know,

Speaker 3 I think it is just the inability to stop ruminating about the

Speaker 3 problems your brain is probably manufacturing, you know, on its own, that there's just some inability that I have. I have an inability to compartmentalize.

Speaker 3 So everything sort of happens at the same frequency, whether it's problems with my cat, problems with my house, you know, problems with the world, and I really have to

Speaker 3 parse it

Speaker 3 and take each one separately in order to compartmentalize it a little bit. Today is okay.

Speaker 2 Today. Good.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Just keep it that way.

Speaker 2 You've also said that, and you said this very recently, that you feel untethered knowing that the podcast is going to end.

Speaker 2 Can you describe the feeling of

Speaker 2 knowing inside that it's time to end it while also knowing you're going to feel a little bit lost without it?

Speaker 3 Well, sure.

Speaker 3 I think that, you know, Brendan and I.

Speaker 2 Brendan's your producer, and you've been working together for many, many years.

Speaker 3 We have a long and very good and

Speaker 3 real professional relationship, and our personal relationship is, you know, well-boundaried and,

Speaker 3 you know, healthy. But we're very specific in how we do the show.
As you know, you do audio and the work that goes into it. And we've done a lot.

Speaker 3 Our commitment was to do a new show every Monday and Thursday.

Speaker 3 And we honored that no matter what, no matter where I was, no matter what I was working on, no matter whether I barely made it to a microphone to do the thing.

Speaker 3 But all that to say that it gets to a point with this thing where

Speaker 3 if you don't have to keep going, And you've done an amazing body of work and you're exhausted on a lot of levels and the media landscape has changed.

Speaker 3 If you don't have to keep doing it, why just keep doing it because you can?

Speaker 3 If you're burnt out and you're concerned about your engagement with it, or whether the quality will start to diminish, or whether you're just doing it because why not?

Speaker 3 It really became a decision about if we stop, we stop with a body of work.

Speaker 3 I just don't think there's any shame in stopping if moving forward would compromise either my or Brendan's vision of the thing or our ability to do it.

Speaker 3 So we've maintained our audience all these years and a lot of them are very close to me.

Speaker 3 And oddly, the decision made sense to a lot of them. They were upset, but they were, you know, we get it.

Speaker 2 So how tied up is your identity with the podcast? And what do you feel like you're losing by ending it?

Speaker 3 Well, my identity publicly is obviously, you know, that.

Speaker 3 It's the podcast and how people engage in it. For me personally, it's more of an emotional and psychological and on some level,

Speaker 3 I don't know if I would call it necessarily spiritual, but these conversations are very real conversations for me. And they happen in real time.

Speaker 3 And I'm with a person, really getting to know them and connecting with them. And that is kind of nourishing for the spirit and the soul as as human beings.

Speaker 3 And it's something that we all crave and probably don't do enough of in person. But because of my job, I get to do it.
I sit across from interesting people. Sometimes I give them coffee.

Speaker 3 Sometimes they hang out in my house. You know, we have moments before and after the podcast.
It's a real sort of afternoon date kind of situation.

Speaker 3 And I think that coming out of that, I do have not a panic, but I have time to process it. And I do believe we're making the right decision.

Speaker 3 But I have to get some support system involved or some sort of expansion of my social life where I do spend quality time with individuals, having the kind of conversations I had in the studio or just similar types of connection to kind of maintain my sanity.

Speaker 2 You aren't comfortable about saying yes to a documentary being made about you. That documentary has been made.
It's been shown at two festivals. I'm hoping it opens in theater sometime soon.

Speaker 2 But you were reluctant to do it. Why were you reluctant and what convinced you to say okay?

Speaker 3 Well, you should know that I'm reluctant to do almost anything.

Speaker 2 More work, more anxiety.

Speaker 3 Well, it's just for me,

Speaker 3 when something is offered to me or

Speaker 3 people want to do something, all I think about is like, oh, man, is the process. Like, you know, when do we start? When's it going to end? Where are we going? You know, what time is there?

Speaker 3 Should I drive there? Do I park? Like, so all that stuff. Once I get into something, I'm okay.
But my, my first response is always like, I don't want to do that.

Speaker 3 How am I going to do that? So,

Speaker 3 but with the, with the doc,

Speaker 3 well, Stephen, they suggested it. And I, it wasn't.

Speaker 2 This is Stephen Fine Arts, the director.

Speaker 3 Yeah, Stephen Fine Arts approached me, and he's

Speaker 3 initially the focus.

Speaker 3 was going to be, you know, me coming back into comedy, you know, post-COVID, you know, post-the loss of my partner, Lynn Shelton, and kind of the arc being, you know, moving towards that HBO special from bleak to dark.

Speaker 3 I mean, that was initially the idea of it. So this guy, Stephen Feinarts, who I knew,

Speaker 3 he started following me around with cameras.

Speaker 3 And I think my reluctance was just, I'm not worried about me talking or being, you know, being able to be honest with the documentary, but it's just that you got a guy following you with a camera, you know, or two guys, and they're always around.

Speaker 3 So it was really that reluctance to have that in my life that was really why I was,

Speaker 3 you know, didn't want to necessarily commit to it. But I did.

Speaker 3 And then what I realized after watching the documentaries, there's a tone I have that is, you know, when he's just shooting me, that isn't really

Speaker 3 in some parts like a natural, comfortable tone. It's me being annoyed with Steven.
So I said to him, I said, you know, I look cranky through this whole thing because you were kind of annoying.

Speaker 3 He goes, well,

Speaker 3 well, yeah, maybe, but I think that's kind of who you are. I'm like, really? All right.

Speaker 2 Oh, that's an interesting complication.

Speaker 3 Well, I said to him, I said, you know, this movie, when I watch it, as if I weren't me, it seems to be the portrait of a cranky, sensitive guy who, despite himself, succeeded somehow.

Speaker 3 And Stephen was like, yeah, that's exactly the movie. I'm like, I don't know if I, I guess that's okay.

Speaker 3 I don't think that's exactly me. It was very helpful in me seeing myself.

Speaker 2 How did it help?

Speaker 3 Well, because

Speaker 3 I kind of know who I am as much as I can from my perspective and my point of view and in my body, but to see how one moves through the world really from the outside and through another person's point of view is very revealing and a bit humbling

Speaker 3 to see just

Speaker 3 how kind of

Speaker 3 nutty I am and self-possessed in a lot of

Speaker 3 strange ways and compulsive and my relationship with my cats and also my relationship to how I work and how I create.

Speaker 3 It was very interesting to see that from the outside because it is a bit more

Speaker 3 strained and tormented than I perceive it to be living it.

Speaker 2 Are there things that you resolve to change after seeing yourself in the documentary?

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 3 I think that

Speaker 3 I could probably relax a little more, I think.

Speaker 3 I really thought that I was past the point of being very hard on myself all the time.

Speaker 3 And I think it kind of revealed to me that, you know, maybe I just frame that differently, but I still am, you know, very hard on myself.

Speaker 3 And I think that has also a connection to the anxiety that there is something about the way my brain works and the way that I, you know, take care of myself that is very

Speaker 3 harsh.

Speaker 3 And I think I can let up on that.

Speaker 3 That might be good for me.

Speaker 2 Aaron Powell, Jr.: Part of the new documentary and part of your new comedy special is about grief.

Speaker 2 Your partner, Lynn Shelton, died in May of 2020. This was just about three months into the pandemic.
She had undiagnosed acute myeloid leukemia. She was 54.

Speaker 2 She was a director, and she had directed you in the movie Sword of Trust. She directed a few episodes of the TV series that you were in, Glow.

Speaker 2 She directed you in a couple of episodes of your own series, Marin. And this was before you became a couple, so you knew each other pretty well.
And you were very devastated.

Speaker 2 We've talked about this on the show. You talked about it in your previous comedy special.
You've also, of course, talked about it on your podcast.

Speaker 2 Have you found that there's different layers of grief? Like, does what you're feeling and the memories in your mind and the things that trigger you, does that keep changing over time?

Speaker 3 Yes,

Speaker 3 I think for me,

Speaker 3 and I definitely, you know, I close the special with really exactly this type of thing,

Speaker 3 is that you don't really know when they're going to happen.

Speaker 3 And I think it's kind of different for me in that we had not really established a life together. We had, you know, a relationship, but

Speaker 3 I don't walk around my house, you know, feeling an emptiness, but

Speaker 3 there is sort of an emptiness of

Speaker 3 possibility. There's an emptiness of

Speaker 3 her presence in my life and the way that impacted me.

Speaker 3 And also there's this kind of belief that I've gotten, I wouldn't call it cynical, but a little bit callous to the possibility of opening my heart again because it was, you know, she pried it open.

Speaker 3 I'm not real easy with that.

Speaker 3 And I think when I have moments of overwhelming connection to the grief, it's that feeling of having that open-heartedness and having that love in my life that was,

Speaker 3 it took a long time for it to come for me.

Speaker 3 And so when I feel that,

Speaker 3 it's kind of overwhelming. And it's that feeling of absence of of that type of love that gets me so

Speaker 3 it's kind of there daily but you know it gets to a point where it's it's not and and then it it just all of a sudden it is

Speaker 2 as i know you know i lost my husband francis davis in april so it's it's it's pretty recent and i've had like two dreams that felt like visitations. I mean, they were so real.
He felt so present. And

Speaker 2 I honestly don't know what to make of it. I mean, I believe that people live forever in your heart,

Speaker 2 but I don't believe that, you know, I don't believe in ghosts. I don't believe in an afterlife.
And yet,

Speaker 2 you know, tell me he wasn't really there

Speaker 2 because it sure felt like he was. And I wonder if you've had dreams like that and what you make of them.
Like,

Speaker 2 how do you interpret that?

Speaker 3 I have had dreams like that, and they still happen sporadically.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 in the early stages of

Speaker 3 the loss and the grief, yeah, I had very visceral, very real dreams, and she would say things like, you know, one time she said,

Speaker 3 this is real.

Speaker 3 And that's kind of poetic because, you know, it could have meant, you know, our feelings for each other, or it could have meant that she's gone.

Speaker 3 But I don't know who told me, but I think it's just you should appreciate the visit. Why read into it? You know, like,

Speaker 2 no, no, that's how I felt. Like, come back, come, come back and visit again.

Speaker 2 But I was talking to somebody who's deeply religious, and she was saying that when she had dreams like that, she'd tell the person, go away and don't come back. You're dead.
You don't belong here.

Speaker 2 That was so opposite of how I was feeling.

Speaker 3 No, I think I like I love seeing her. You You know, like one time she just, you know, I saw her.
She just, you know, kind of held my face and looked at me. Like,

Speaker 3 I don't, I, I'll, I'll, I'll go mystical occasionally, but who's to know whether, you know, ghosts or religion or

Speaker 3 any of that stuff? You, you know, we're all operating at this frequency of life.

Speaker 3 So, you know, if you want to believe anything, you know, that whether, you know, people never go, whether it's in your heart or their energy or whatever, you know, what difference does it make?

Speaker 3 I think that that feeling you have when you wake up after having a dream like that, it's kind of brutal, but it's also kind of beautiful to, you know, to be able to check in. You know, it's

Speaker 3 okay. And for whatever reason, I've just grown to appreciate it, but you do wake up pretty sad.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Okay. I have to reintroduce you here because we need to take a break.
So here we go. If you're just joining us, my guest is Mark Maron.

Speaker 2 He has a new comedy special that will start premiering on HBO August 1st. It's called Panicked and will be streaming on Max.

Speaker 2 And he also has a new documentary that's been shown this year at the South by Southwest and Tribeca Film Festivals. We'll be back after a short break.
I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.

Speaker 4 This message comes from NPR sponsor CNN. Stream Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown Prime Cuts Now exclusively on the CNN app.

Speaker 4 These rarely seen, never-before-streamed episodes dig deep into the Parts Unknown archives with personal insights from Anthony Bourdain and rare behind-the-scenes interviews about each season.

Speaker 4 Anthony Bourdain, Parts Unknown, Prime Cuts, now streaming exclusively on the CNN app. Subscribe now at CNN.com slash all access.
Available in the U.S. only.

Speaker 4 This message comes from Charles Schwab. When it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices, like full-service wealth management and advice when you need it.

Speaker 4 You can also invest on your own and trade on Thinkorswim. Visit schwab.com to learn more.

Speaker 4 This message comes from BetterHelp. Most FSA dollars expire at the end of the year, so it's time to use them or lose them.

Speaker 4 With BetterHelp, you can invest those funds in taking care of your mind with online therapy. Join today and you can be matched with a licensed therapist in as little as 24 hours.

Speaker 4 Visit betterhelp.com/slash npr to get 10% off your first month.

Speaker 4 Support comes from UC Berkeley's online Master of Public Health program. Now more than ever, public health needs bold, informed leaders.

Speaker 4 Berkeley's flexible online program empowers professionals to advance their careers while making a real impact in their communities. Learn more at publichealth.berkeley.edu slash online.

Speaker 4 Hi, this is Molly C. V.
Nusberg, digital producer at Fresh Air.

Speaker 2 And this is Terry Gross, host of the show.

Speaker 4 One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter.

Speaker 2 And I'm a newsletter fan. I read it every Saturday after breakfast.
The newsletter includes all the week's shows, staff recommendations, and Molly picks timely highlights from the archive.

Speaker 2 It's a fun read.

Speaker 4 It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week, an exclusive.

Speaker 2 So subscribe at whyy.org/slash freshair and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning.

Speaker 2 What are your thoughts about what happens after death? And along with that, are you obsessing on your own mortality, having lived through such a shocking, unexpected death?

Speaker 3 Aaron Powell, I think I was always kind of obsessed with my own mortality in different ways.

Speaker 3 You know, when I was younger, I was very anxiety-filled and very

Speaker 3 hypochondriacal. You know, I always thought I was dying.
You know, for years and years, it took me a long time to get out from under the obsession on illness and illnesses that I thought I had.

Speaker 3 That comes and goes. You You know, I had a father who was a doctor, and he was kind of distracted most of the time.
So one way you can get a doctor's attention is by claiming you're dying.

Speaker 3 So I think that was part of it. But

Speaker 3 I think that my sense of death is different now because I'm older. I'm going to be 62 next month, and it's coming.

Speaker 3 As my friend Jerry Stahl says,

Speaker 3 there's something in the mail for everybody.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 I think what I know now is that it's coming. You know, how I feel about that happening, it's on my mind.

Speaker 3 Even if what I believe is nothing happens afterwards and this is the end, there is sort of somehow my brain has been trying to bend that into kind of a timeless sort of beauty somehow that, you know, when you die, you're no longer in

Speaker 3 the living time frame and all of history that is about to happen is going to happen with you in this stationary place. So I think there's a spiritual idea there that

Speaker 3 you are free.

Speaker 3 But I don't know what happens after. And of course, it's terrifying.

Speaker 3 And I think the one thing I learned from somebody passing, especially in the situation that I was in when it was COVID and she had just moved all her stuff down here, is that, you know, what's left for everyone to go through, you know, I kind of want to make sure that's kind of in order because it's a very daunting and

Speaker 3 sad process.

Speaker 2 I've been going through that too because the bureaucracy of death is really deep and time consuming.

Speaker 2 And just as you're trying to like face the fact that your life is going to be completely changed now in so many ways, you're also having to like do this paperwork and go to the bank and get the death certificates and figure out who needs them.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it just seems like endless.

Speaker 2 It just doesn't feel fair. It's like there's got to be an easier way of dealing with the bureaucracy of death.
I don't know what that way would be.

Speaker 3 Well, I think it's efficient estate planning, if that is the case. A lot of that stuff, that particular stuff, I didn't have to deal with, but I had all her stuff to deal with, and it was COVID.

Speaker 3 And people, you know, I had her friends come by and, you know, I'm sending articles of clothing and pieces of jewelry to her family members that wanted them.

Speaker 3 And so it was a lot more, I guess the word is visceral and things I could hold, like, you know, the people that loved her, you know, what do you want?

Speaker 3 But recently, I had Rosemary DeWitt on my show, who worked with Lynn closely on one of her films and was kind of a Lynn surrogate in the movie, I believe. And I think she felt very close to Lynn.

Speaker 3 And I was holding on to this very unique kind of green leather jacket that Lynn had just had relined. And I was holding on to it because it was really

Speaker 3 a part of her and I realized when Rosemary was there that that she should have it you know so

Speaker 3 so you know I gave her that jacket and it like fit her perfectly and I just felt like well that that is you know

Speaker 3 Lynn continuing to to to be there you know for somebody that loved her and it was a it was kind of a powerful moment.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah,

Speaker 2 I can imagine that.

Speaker 2 You found something that Lynn wrote that said, if I could get Mark to love himself, maybe I can get him to love me.

Speaker 2 Did you know that she thought that before you read it?

Speaker 3 Well, you know,

Speaker 3 I'm kind of a tough customer emotionally, and it's heartbreaking on one level.

Speaker 3 On another level, I think she succeeded.

Speaker 3 But yeah, I think generally

Speaker 3 I am kind of insulated

Speaker 3 emotionally. But what's interesting in talking about the podcast and also talking about stand-up, I'm very open, you know, hearted when people are going to leave.

Speaker 2 Do you want to elaborate on that?

Speaker 3 No, I mean, like, you know,

Speaker 3 I can be all in in a conversation with somebody who's on the podcast for an hour where I can open up and feel the emotions and not feel threatened in any way.

Speaker 2 And feel like it's all about them.

Speaker 3 Well, kind of.

Speaker 2 But you talk about yourself a lot, too.

Speaker 3 Right. Like I can really kind of like engage it fully because, you know, there is a

Speaker 3 boundary there or a context. You know, they're going to leave.
So if I'm crying with a guest and they go,

Speaker 3 that is the nature of the show. Or if I'm on a stand-up stage and I'm sharing things that are very personal, though they're crafted to be funny, I still am very open.

Speaker 3 But when it comes to interpersonal relationships or relationships that are ongoing you know i'm a little guarded i'm a little defensive because i i feel like i i could get hurt or i could be diminished somehow or i'm being you know manipulated i there's a lot of weird triggers i have uh in personal relationships that that kept me kind of um

Speaker 3 lonely within them for a long time

Speaker 2 well i want to play another clip from the documentary are we good this will speak for itself so here it is maybe i don't understand the whole nature of companionship.

Speaker 5 You know what I mean? It's like I don't feel the need for companionship to ride out the rest of life. Hopefully, you know, my money will hold up.

Speaker 5 And, you know, when I become ill, I have enough money to be taken care of. But I don't want to watch someone die again or have somebody watch me die again.

Speaker 2 The reason why that clip really well, one of the reasons why that clip really struck me is I remember like a couple of times I ran ran into women who had lost their husbands, and they said to me, I would never marry again.

Speaker 2 And this was, you know, a few years ago, I was younger. I said, why? And they said, well, I could never go through that kind of pain again of watching somebody be so sick and then die and losing them.

Speaker 2 I can't let myself do that. And I'd think to myself, yeah, but you're depriving yourself of possibly a very deep, loving relationship.

Speaker 2 And that I lost my husband and he had two like long-term chronic diseases, you know, I watched him kind of lose so much of his life, live in such a kind of shrinking world.

Speaker 2 I understand what they were saying. It's just so painful to watch somebody you love go through that.

Speaker 2 And, you know, the end is, of course, always hard for the person who's d dying, especially if it's, you know, if it's a process and not a sudden thing.

Speaker 2 And so I understand why one wouldn't want to put themselves through something like that again.

Speaker 2 So I thought about that when I heard you say, I don't want to watch somebody die again or have them watch me die.

Speaker 2 And I was wondering if you could share a little more of what's going on in your mind when you say that.

Speaker 3 Well, I think that's kind of shifting because I hear what I said in the documentary. And when I said it, it sounds very, very lonely to me.

Speaker 3 And recently, I've been sort of reflecting on the idea of like, well, who do I have? You know, who's going to come? You know, who's going to come to the hospital? You know, and it's very sad.

Speaker 3 So I think a lot of what I was saying there was kind of

Speaker 3 probably a bit defensive, but I think honest, you know, because my dad is, you know, he's still being taken care of by his wife and he's still kind of. kind of there, but he's got her.

Speaker 3 But I do think a lot of that is just fear of my

Speaker 3 own mortality. But I don't know if I can stand by

Speaker 3 that statement in the doc now.

Speaker 3 I don't know. I'm right at the edge of that stuff, and it's a little scary.

Speaker 2 I think it's kind of possible to hold both thoughts in your mind at the same time. This fear of getting too close and having to watch somebody you love so much die while at the same time craving

Speaker 2 that kind of intimacy and companionship with somebody else.

Speaker 3 Trevor Burrus, Jr.: The vulnerability of dying

Speaker 3 is an interesting and horrifying reality to me, I think.

Speaker 3 But as I see my father kind of disconnecting, there is a kind of beauty to it in a weird way, that, you know, once you get past a point where you can take care of yourself and you do need to rely on other people, and so much of who you were is kind of, you know,

Speaker 3 fading away or disconnected,

Speaker 3 it's so profoundly sad, but it is, I think there is a way to look at it as natural and as part of life.

Speaker 3 And I think there may be something beautiful about it.

Speaker 2 You have a girlfriend now, and you talk about her on your podcast. Was it uncomfortable for you at first to feel like it was okay to have a girlfriend?

Speaker 3 I don't know that it was,

Speaker 3 you know, because it was after

Speaker 3 Lynn passed away. It was COVID.
It was a lonely time. I was pretty shattered.

Speaker 3 I think the intention was to spend time with somebody. And it kind of evolved from there and kind of keeps going.

Speaker 2 You're living alone now or you're living together?

Speaker 2 Yeah. Do you like living alone?

Speaker 3 Absolutely.

Speaker 2 What do you like about it?

Speaker 3 I'm just so codependent by nature. And I don't know if that's surprising to people because I am sort of

Speaker 3 a cranky, you know, seemingly intense person that would not be a kind of person that would lose himself in somebody else. But on a deep emotional level, I am immediately and very deeply codependent.

Speaker 3 So it's almost impossible for me to exist in a house with somebody without wondering what they're doing. Are they okay? Where are they in the house? What are we doing today?

Speaker 3 What do you got going on later? Like it to the point where it would take up most of my mind. And that's happened in the past.

Speaker 2 Well, let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Mark Maron.
His new comedy special, Panicked, premieres on HBO Friday, August 1st, and will stream on Max.

Speaker 2 We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air.

Speaker 1 This message comes from Babel.

Speaker 1 Babel's conversation-based language technique teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world.

Speaker 1 With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, start speaking with Babel today.

Speaker 1 Get up to 55% off your Babel subscription right now at babel.com slash NPR. Spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash NPR.
Rules and restrictions may apply.

Speaker 4 This message comes from Vital Farms, who works with small American farms to bring you pastor-raised eggs.

Speaker 4 Farmer Tanner Pace shares why he chose to collaborate with Vital Farms when he brought pastor-raised hens to his small Missouri farm.

Speaker 6 Probably the best thing about being a Vital Farms farmer is working with a group that is not just motivated for one thing.

Speaker 6 They're motivated for the well-being of the animals, for the well-being of the earth. They care about it all, you know, and that means a lot to me.

Speaker 4 To learn more about how vital farms farmers care for their hens, visit vitalfarms.com.

Speaker 2 So let's lighten things up and talk about the problems you're having with your cats.

Speaker 2 Yeah, sure. Your late cat Boomer became a celebrity in the feline world because you talked about him so much on your podcast.
And it seemed like you had a really good relationship.

Speaker 2 Now you have three cats. Charlie, I think, was astray, and he's become a real problem.
He has anxiety-induced colitis.

Speaker 2 He defecates around the house, especially like when you're gone, because he has like separation anxiety.

Speaker 2 He beats up on the other cats.

Speaker 3 And I had many cats. You know, Boomer was one, but that crew, Monkey and LaFonda, they lived a long time

Speaker 3 after Boomer. It was funny because when Lynn was alive,

Speaker 3 she was with me when I had to put down La Fonda. And then I only had

Speaker 3 old Monkey, who was also kind of sick, and

Speaker 3 Buster was a little younger. And after Lim passed away, you know, I was looking at Monkey, who was, you know, in the beginning of kidney disease.
I'm like, dude, you just, you can't do it now.

Speaker 3 We can't do it now. You've got to hang out for a few more months, buddy.
And he did. But right now, Charlie actually was born near my backyard.
There was a feral litter next door.

Speaker 3 And the mother was kind of moving these five or six kittens around, I imagine, for safety. And she had left Charlie under my backstairs.

Speaker 3 But I took him, and he was very small, like two to three weeks old. And he never really had a relationship with a cat mom.
You know, it was me. He's deeply attached to me.

Speaker 3 He doesn't really love other cats. He loves people.
And when I go away, you know, his brain kind of melts down. He's anxious I'm gone.

Speaker 3 But then he thinks he needs to run the house and he's not really kind of capable of it. And he starts beating up on the other other cats.

Speaker 3 The colitis business has settled down, but the aggression has not.

Speaker 2 So how are you dealing with that? I mean,

Speaker 2 cats can be like a lot of fun and very relaxing when they're sitting on your lap and purring, but it's kind of upsetting when they start, you know, messing up, defecating around the house or peeing.

Speaker 2 And it's hard to get the smell out.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I've dealt with all that stuff, you know, but it's more the aggression, you know, and I need peace at the house. Look, I don't have kids.

Speaker 3 I live alone, but these cats, my connection connection with them

Speaker 3 is pretty intense and kind of crazy. I'm not a normal cat person.
I'm a little aggressive in how I talk to them.

Speaker 3 I'm more of a like, what's up, Charlie? What are we doing? Where are we at? What's going on?

Speaker 3 It took me years to realize that's why I have, you know, I always have kind of tweaky cats. I was like, why do I always get these nervous, jumpy cats?

Speaker 3 Well, it might be me.

Speaker 3 What you're saying is true. It's more the aggression right now.

Speaker 3 You know, I really think that if I had peace among the the cats my whole life would would fall into place in a lot of ways in terms of anxiety because you do want to go home and and be able to relax and not just be constantly waiting for for a cat to scream and then try to separate a vicious cat fight

Speaker 2 something i want to mention from your documentary there's a scene and i think this is like during the covet lockdown when you're exercising with a trainer like out on the porch and man you're doing some pretty strenuous exercises you look like really physically fit.

Speaker 2 And you'd mentioned on your podcast that men's health is doing a story on you, which is not something I would have expected.

Speaker 2 But I'm wondering if, like, being that strong now, and after doing all those workouts, assuming you're still doing them, has it made your mind and your body feel more connected?

Speaker 2 Do you feel more comfortable in your body? And does your brain feel more attached to it?

Speaker 3 Have you been listening?

Speaker 3 No.

Speaker 2 Right. Okay.
Yes.

Speaker 2 I see your point. Right.
Yes, right.

Speaker 2 You know, that's what we've been discussing this whole time. Yeah.

Speaker 2 The state of panic and worry that you are always in. Exactly.
Anxiety. Exactly.
Constantly. Exactly.

Speaker 3 I do.

Speaker 3 Look, it's very important to me to stay in shape and to stay. You know, I've not, I've not, I'm not crazy.

Speaker 3 I'm not inherently crazy with it. I think a lot of it just comes from, you know, a basic, you know, body dysmorphia that was wired into me by my mother.
But

Speaker 3 I think it does

Speaker 3 help with the dopamine element in my brain.

Speaker 3 But physically, I guess I do, I feel pretty connected. I feel pretty good.
I feel

Speaker 2 better.

Speaker 3 But I wouldn't say it's...

Speaker 3 on a day-to-day basis, I feel great ever.

Speaker 2 Ever. Yes.
Okay. Let me reintroduce you again.
If you're just joining us, my guest is Mark Marin. His new comedy special, Panicked, premieres on HBO Friday, August 1st and will stream on Max.

Speaker 2 The new documentary about him, Are We Good Yet, was shown at the South by Southwest and Tribeca Film Festivals this year. We'll be right back after a short break.

Speaker 2 I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.

Speaker 1 This message comes from LPL Financial. What if you could have more control over your future? LPL Financial removes the things holding you back and provides the services to push you forward.

Speaker 1 Because Because when it comes to your finances, your business, your future, LPL Financial believes the only question should be, what if you could?

Speaker 1 LPL Financial, member FINRA SIPC, no strategy assures success or protects against loss. Investing involves risk, including possible loss of principal.

Speaker 4 This message comes from Shipbob. Nothing ruins your holiday faster than the customer emails like, where's my order? Or worst of all, why can't you deliver by Christmas?

Speaker 4 But peak doesn't have to be chaotic when Shipbob's in your corner.

Speaker 4 Shipbob helps brands like Our Place, Bloom Nutrition, and Tony's win the holidays with reliable, scalable, fast, and cost-effective fulfillment. Make this your best holiday season yet with Shipbob.

Speaker 4 Go to shipbob.com slash npr for a free quote.

Speaker 2 I want to ask you about the new Springsteen film that's coming out in October.

Speaker 2 And it's based on a book about the making of Springsteen's album Nebraska, which started off as a series of like demo tapes of songs that he recorded at home.

Speaker 2 And that became the album with the help of an engineer who, I guess, digitized it or whatever he did. But you play that engineer in the film.

Speaker 2 So there's some great actors in the film, including Jeremy Strong, who plays John Landau, who wrote about Springsteen early on and was his champion, became his friend, became somebody who worked with him.

Speaker 2 Also, Jeremy Allen White from The Bear plays Springsteen. So I'm particularly interested in Jeremy Strong.
He's such an intense actor and seems to have such an intense way of preparing.

Speaker 2 I know from your podcast that you are really interested in how other actors prepare and you're always trying to learn from the actors you interview, like how they do what they do.

Speaker 2 What did you learn from working with Jeremy Strong?

Speaker 3 Well, the whole thing was kind of... fun.

Speaker 3 Like I got cast in that thing a while back. I love Scott Cooper.
I think he's a great director. I think he's got a real vision.
And he said, look, I want to to put you in the Springsteen movie.

Speaker 3 And I said, great. So they put me in this little part.
And I guess I was having sort of a diva moment. You know, I was like, well, they could have just gotten anybody to do this.
You know, what?

Speaker 3 It's like, no, it's just hardly any part here. And like, I was being a real baby.
And I actually texted Scott Cooper and I'm like, hey, dude, I'm just getting back into the script.

Speaker 3 It doesn't seem like there's a lot for me to do here. I don't know.
Am I wrong? And he says, look, man, you don't have to do it. I just thought it would be fun.

Speaker 3 But, you know, we'll do something else in the future. It's up to you.
And I was like, okay, yeah, I'll do it. You know, like,

Speaker 2 i couldn't like

Speaker 3 so i looked at the script and i read the book and oddly the producer of the film had heard warren zanes uh

Speaker 3 yeah and that was part of the impetus of bringing the project to scott cooper like it started on wtf oh wow good for you Yeah, well, I like the Zane's guys,

Speaker 3 but I love the book Deliver Me From Nowhere. I thought it was great.
And the story is really great. So here's what happens.

Speaker 3 So the fun part about doing this movie, I think for Jeremy Strong too, is that like I get there and it's at the studio and it's a smallish studio and Video Village was just outside the door of the studio.

Speaker 3 And for the entire shoot, the real Landau and the real Springsteen are sitting there at the monitors. They're there.
All right.

Speaker 3 So because I'd interviewed Bruce, it was one of those things we had talked about earlier and he remembered me. So I kind of had a bit of a shorthand with him.
Like I wasn't a stranger.

Speaker 3 So, you know, Scott would go cut and you just go hang out with Bruce. How is that not fun?

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 3 But the thing was, is a couple of things. I was nervous about Plotkin.
And I, I told Scott Cooper, I'm like, there's not a lot on this guy. I, I don't know what to do with him.

Speaker 3 And he goes, don't worry about it. Just do the, do the job.
Just be the engineer.

Speaker 3 So I, I had to learn how to, you know, operate the, uh, the levels and, and have my hands on the board and understand the focus of everything.

Speaker 3 And I had lines and the, and the part is kind of pivotal in getting the tape into the format where they can put it it on the record. But I didn't know what Bruce was going to think.

Speaker 3 I'm worried because Plotkin's a real guy. So I do the first scene where I'm talking and I'm doing the job and Scott goes cut and I walk out in the video village and Springsteen goes, you did it.

Speaker 3 You're Chuck. Good job.
You nailed it. And I'm like, well, that is fortuitous and quite coincidental.

Speaker 2 There are some clips in the new documentary about you from your really early days on stage performing comedy.

Speaker 2 And I would never have recognized you physically, vocally, from the material. Like nothing about you seemed recognizable to me.
Can you put us back to that period?

Speaker 3 I was young.

Speaker 3 To be honest with you, that's the cringiest stuff for me in that doc. What I saw was a guy that was

Speaker 3 full of this very shallow, very

Speaker 3 kind of

Speaker 3 transparent, you know, swagger, trying to be something that he really wasn't, uh, that I aspired to. But my model was just like, I wanted to have this swagger.
I wanted to be shocking.

Speaker 3 I wanted to say stuff, but I didn't have the gravitas or the chops to really do it. But I kind of got away with it because I had enough, you know,

Speaker 3 moxie and persistence to do it. But to me, it was a lot of posturing and it was kind of of the vulnerability of that makes me sad a little.

Speaker 2 It's funny because your comedy and what makes you really special is the interiority, how much you reflect on, you know, life and your inner life and your thoughts, your anxieties.

Speaker 2 Like you're going deep inside in a performative way, as opposed to just trying to be like shocking or swagger. You're kind of anti-swagger.

Speaker 3 Well, right, but it took a long time for me to exercise that. You know, I was fueled by, you know, aggravated insecurity and anger for a long time.

Speaker 3 I've been doing this, you know, for almost 40 years, and I've done all the jokes. I've taken all the chances.
I've said all the wrong things.

Speaker 3 You know, I've lived this life thoroughly, taking many risks, and I've evolved as a person and as a comic into what I am now.

Speaker 3 And I think in the new special, you know, I kind of explore some of that stuff.

Speaker 3 yeah, the decision to go inside was a very conscious decision many years ago in just sort of being able to own, you know, your point of view.

Speaker 3 If you talk about general things, the odds of another comic having a similar approach are

Speaker 3 great because there's thousands of comics.

Speaker 3 But if you sit in yourself and come from your perspective on yourself and the world through that perspective, you have a better shot at maintaining a unique sense of self up there.

Speaker 2 Well, Mark Marin, I wish you good luck with all the projects that you're involved with now, and I hope your anxiety eases.

Speaker 3 Me too, Terry. It's always great to talk to you.

Speaker 2 Oh, great to talk with you. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 Mark Marin's new HBO comedy special, Panicked, premieres this Friday, August 1st, and will stream on Max. The documentary about him, Are We Good, has played at film festivals.

Speaker 2 The release date hasn't yet been announced. Marin co-stars stars in the Apple TV Plus series Stick, which has been renewed for a second season.

Speaker 2 Tomorrow on Fresh Air. NASA once symbolized America's highest ideals.
Now, many say it ceded its mission to Elon Musk.

Speaker 2 Journalist Franklin Forer will join us to talk about how SpaceX became indispensable to the U.S.

Speaker 2 government, what it means for the future of space exploration, and why Musk's dream of Mars may come at the cost of NASA's mission. I hope you'll join us.

Speaker 2 To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPRFreshAir.

Speaker 1 Lock the gates!

Speaker 2 Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
Our managing producer is Sam Brigham.

Speaker 2 Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Ray Bodonato, Lauren Krenzel, Theresa Madden, Monic Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yucundi, Anna Bauman, and John Sheehan.

Speaker 2 Our digital media producer is Molly C. V.
Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson.
Roberto Shorak directs the show. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley.
I'm Terry Gross.

Speaker 4 This message comes from Vital Farms, who works with small American farms to bring you pasture-raised eggs. Farmer Tanner Pace describes what makes a pasture-raised egg unique.

Speaker 6 Before we first started with Vital Farms, I thought, you know, an egg's an egg, not a big deal, but it's hard for me to even eat an eggs that's not a vital farm egg now.

Speaker 6 Vital Farms eggs are usually brown to lighter brown in color. And when you crack a pasteurized egg,

Speaker 6 you have to hit it harder than what a person thinks just because the shell quality is so good.

Speaker 6 And basically when that egg cracks in the skillet or bowl, that yolk is almost kind of an orange shade. And that is part of what I love about a vital egg is just the shade of yolk.

Speaker 6 I love pasteurized eggs because you can see the work and the pride that the farmers have and have put into these eggs.

Speaker 4 To learn more about how Vital Farms farmers care for their hens, visit VitalFarms.com.