Jonathan Pokluda | Girls Gone Bible

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Shop now on TomboyX.com Hi guys, I'm Ange. And I'm Ari.
And this is Girls Gone Bible. We're a faith-based podcast where we talk all things spirituality, life, Jesus, the Bible, mental health.
We don't care who you are, where you come from, where you've been, come as you are. Just please don't stay that way.
Today, we are in Waco, Texas. We've never been here before, but we're so happy because as you saw in the title, we have Mr.
Jonathan Pakluda on Girls Gone Bible. Let's go.
JP, thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me.
Do you mind if I blow up your spot a little bit really quick? Sure. I think so.
I think that's fine. I think it's okay.
So I'll have you guys know that JP was the first person that I ever asked to come on Girls Gone Bible because if you guys are on social media, you've definitely seen him. He's all over the place.
His clips are everywhere. His sermons are amazing.
He is one of the best speakers that I've ever had the privilege of listening to. And what I love about you, JP, is that you are very similar to Ari and I in the sense that you didn't always know Jesus the way you know Jesus now.
And you really are just so honest about your struggles, where you've come from and the things that you've dealt with in the past. And so I sent an email to probably your team and I was like, you guys, I would be so honored if JP would come on Girls Gone Bible.
I want him to be the first guest because he's the core and the heart of what we do here. And they said, no.
No, no. It was like, hey, can we do it virtually? And you're like, no, we want to do it in person.
I literally when I when you guys reached back out and you were like, hey, let's make it happen. Come here.
I screamed and I called Ari and I was like, you don't understand how good this episode is going to be. No expectation.
Keep your expectations low. You guys have the gift of encouragement.
And so thank you. Thank you for those kind words.
I am a chump from a small town. I've got a two-year degree from a college you've never heard of.
And I'm six, seven. I'm weird tall and not athletic at all.
And so God just continues to teach me humility. And then one day he says, all right, you're going to teach the word.
And so here we are. You know, it's a blessing to be here.
Thank you. Thanks for that.
Thanks for the encouragement. Thanks for the words.
Thanks for all you guys are doing. It's amazing.
I watched you from the come up. I mean, from the get go out the gate.
And I just like the Lord anointed what you guys are up to. And so it's awesome.
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Um, so I just want to know your story. I mean, you just said you went to college for two years.
So did you go to seminary? Did you? No way. Yeah.
Never went to seminary. Wow.
That's crazy. So what, what, what's the story? How did you find Jesus? How did you become a pastor? Yeah.
So I was, I was raised in a small town, South Texas. So 6,000 people in the middle of nowhere.
Like there's no movie theater, no bowling alley. You would drive.
There's a town about 35 minutes away if you wanted to go see a movie or something. And I was raised on a farm.
And so my dad was a cowboy. I mean, we had cattle and horses and all the things.
And I just was like, I wanted nothing to do with that. Total rebellion.
And I went to a small Catholic school for nine years. So kindergarten through eighth grade.
And we had religion class every year. And I got the religion award eight out of nine years.
And so one year Brandon took it from me,, but I'm not bitter. And so, you know, so I had like some idea of faith and Catholicism taught me like a reverence for God that I'm really grateful for.
There was like a ceremonial aspect to coming into church and whatnot. And that foundation I'm thankful for, but I never understood grace.

And, and so high school was, it turned into total rebellion, identity crisis, always, I mean, like found identity and relationships. So girlfriend to girlfriend to girlfriend, but everything else just so insecure.
I mean, truly, I went through these phases of being a cowboy to a gangster, to a skater to prep to try the athletic thing.

And just none of those hats fit. And I didn't do well in school.
And my mom was a counselor. And she said, hey, you can you can go away for two years or you can stay here for four.
That's what we'll pay for. And so I said, I want to go away for two years.
And at this time, like I'm, I'm drinking and partying in high school, started smoking weed. I'm sleeping around because like, I lost my virginity and it was like game on.
Like once I, once that I went through like true love weights in the Baptist church too. And then I was like, all right, kind of purity culture that people talk about.
Like I went through that. And then once I messed that up, I was like, all right, game on.
And then I kind of, when I went to college, I thought, you know what? I'm going to get my act together. I'm going to straighten up.
And I made all of these kind of, all these promises. Like, hey, I'm not going to sleep around.
I'm not going to do drugs. I'm not going to party.
I'm going to get serious about my faith and my grades and all that. I go to college.

My parents drop me off at the apartment.

They leave town.

And just that sense of freedom set in, that sense of rebellion that it's just like, oh, man, I'm free.

Like I can do whatever I want whenever I want.

And so in the first two weeks of college, I broke all those rules in epic proportion.

Slept around, experimented with hard drugs, partied, all the things. And I didn't know what to do.
One night I was saying my prayers as I always did, you know, as a good Catholic boy, as like our father, Hail Mary, kind of a made up prayer, glory be. And I just started weeping.
I'm in my twin size bed in my on-campus apartment. And I'm just weeping all by myself, just like bawling.
And I just sensed, God's not listening to me. He doesn't hear me.
My prayers are bouncing off the ceiling. And I didn't know what to do.
So I called someone, the only person I knew to talk to that had kind of faith. And I just confessed all my sins to them, which was not normal.
I just said,, this is everything I've done and I don't know what to do. And they just said, hey, that's just kind of college.
And I was like, what do you mean? I was like, what about God? And they're like, oh, after college, you kind of get right with God. Terrible advice.
Yeah. Okay.
So, but I took it and I just said, game on. And it was just kind of licensed to just continue in that rebellion.
Somehow I graduated. I moved to Dallas and I kind of became at this moment, my heart is so hardened.
I became everything wrong with Dallas and a person. And because I grew up kind of poor, you know, lower, upper, upper, lower class, lower middle class.
I was like, I'm going to, I want to be a millionaire before I'm 30. Like I'm, I'm pursuing the dollar.
I landed this job in a fortune 15 company, bought the penthouse condo in Uptown, drove the Jaguar at the time, obnoxious car and different suits for different days of the week, different watches for different days of the week, bottle service on the weekend, VIP membership to the club. And I'm just living that, that lifestyle.
And I'm at a club 21 years ago. And someone comes up to me that I met actually in Waco in college, because I went to college here in Waco, not Baylor.
And, um, and they, and, and they said, what are you doing this weekend? And I said, well, um, uh, oh, actually I said, what are you doing this weekend? And they said, we're going to go check out this church tomorrow. Do you want to come? And it wasn't like it wasn't even like evangelistic.
Like they were just we were just talking, you know, leaning against a pool table upstairs in a club. And and she said, we're going to go check out this club.
I said, I mean, this church. And I said, great.
I said, we picked me up. My church sucks.
And that's what I said.

And because I would sometimes go and just daydream in the back and just like feel bad for what I did the night before, you know. And so I go the next day.
They pick me up hungover. I'm sitting in the back row.
I smell like smoke from the night before. And I start wrestling.
What do I really believe about God? And I'm like, I begin to, I'm like, surely he's not the Christian God.

Because I've always said I'm a Christian, but like, what are the odds I'd be born to the right country?

Like if I was born in India, I'd be Hindu.

If I was born in China, I'd be Buddhist.

If I was born in Iran, I'd be Muslim.

If I was born in Israel, I might be Jewish.

You know, if I was born in Utah, I'd be Mormon. Like what are the, what are the odds I'd be born to the right place, the right family, to the right God.
And so I buy this book on world religions and I just started studying world religions. And I started thinking like, okay, I believe there's a creator.
Like I don't have enough faith to be an atheist. Like there's, there's creation, like the universe operates more finely tuned than a Swiss watch.

Like, surely there's gravity that holds us just perfectly to the ground so that we don't float off into space. And the earth is just the right amount of distance from the sun so that we don't burn up or freeze.
And like, surely there's a creator, but who is he? And I started thinking because agnostic is like, you can't know who he is. And I'm like, if he can create everything and if he can invent life, then surely that

deep. because agnostic is like, you can't know who he is.
And I'm like, if he can create everything and if he can invent life, then surely that deity is strong enough to let me know who they are. And so as I'm researching this, I was really blown away by the evidence that supported the narrative of Jesus Christ that 2,024 years ago, this man reset the calendar.
So BC, before Christ, AD is medieval Latin, Anno Domini, the year of our Lord. Like time started counting over again at his birth.
I'm like, who resets the calendar? And I was like, and he was born in Bethlehem and I know Bethlehem. But when I looked at Bethlehem, it's this really tiny city, you know, in the Middle East.

I'm like, I wouldn't even know.

There's, there's much larger cities around there, really tiny town, much larger cities

around there.

I've never heard of.

I only know of this town because he was born there and he was a carpenter and somehow he

becomes the most polarizing character in the history of history.

At this moment in my life, I'm enslaved to pornography.

I'm addicted to sex.

I love to party.

I think that's be a billionaire. Like I want to be as rich as I possibly can.
I want to be able to buy whatever I want and go wherever I want. And I'm not like miserable, to be honest.
I'm not like, oh, what was me? How old were you at this point I was 22 oh wow 22 years old and so I'm like and I'm you know and I love fun all the things but here I kind of came to this place it's like if there's truth I want to know it and if I'm gonna die I want to know what happens after I die and I kept going to that church. I was just go by myself and I would just sit in the parking lot and cry and wrestle with God, feel bad for what I've done.
And I came to the realization, like it's Jesus, like in the narrative was, so I thought, okay, how do you get to heaven? You try to do good. You believe in God and you try to do good.
But I didn't realize like the crazy is the craziest narrative.

And y'all know this, but it's like, it's like God came here, lived a perfect life, was brutally murdered on the side of the road in the most heinous way on a cross.

Like they pinned him with nails and his hands and his feet on the side of the cross, naked as people walk by. They're mocking him and they spit on him and they pluck out his beard and they beat him and they stab him in the side.

And like, that's our God.

It's so crazy.

Let's go. As people walk by, they're mocking him and they spit on him and they pluck out his beard and they beat him and they stab him in the side.
And like, that's our God. It's so crazy.
Like, why? Why is that the story? And I realized, oh, that's my sin being paid for. Like, and so he goes in the grave and he comes out of the grave.
And that's the promise for me that I can live forever. And when I got that, and it's Ephesians 2, 8, 9, changed my life.
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith. It's not of yourself.
It's the gift of God, not by work so that no one can boast. It's like, oh, it's grace.
Grace is receiving more than you could ever deserve. You know, so like justice is when you get what you deserve.
Mercy is when you don't get what you deserve. Like, like, so if you deserve to go to prison, justice is you going to prison.
Mercy is you not going to prison. Grace is you getting a billion dollars and not going to prison.
You know, it's like you deserve prison, but you get a reward. That's grace.
Well, I deserve death. I deserve hell.
And I get to be in heaven and paradise with God forever and ever and ever because of his son. I don't have to pay for my sins.
Like, that's good news. That's why it's called the gospel.
I go that church I went to hungover. I go to the membership class.
I'm like, hey, I want to become a member here. My friend went with me.
He was like, we need someone to teach us the Bible. The guy that was teaching the class.
We're like, hey, would you teach us the Bible? He said, sure. We sat down at a round table, Genesis 1-1.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And we're just going verse by verse through the Bible.
And I start serving in that church under that person, that pastor. And five years in to being discipled, he said, hey, I have a job I want you to consider.
I was like, man, I'll serve anywhere. Like, tell me where.
And he goes, no, like a job, job. Like I was like, where at the church? And cause I was like, you got to go to seminary to work at the church.
He goes, yeah, no, no. Like, man, I, I know this is crazy, but I think you're the guy.
And so I go on staff at that church and they just began to pour into me and invest in me. And, um, and then one day they asked me to teach and then it's kind of from there on out.

So that's, oh, I left out one important part.

I was sitting at my desk at AT&T.

This is crazy.

At AT&T.

I was sitting at my desk and I hear the Lord say, you're going to come work for me.

And I was like, what in the, I didn't even know what God's voice sounded like.

I was like, what, it just startled me so much. And I was like, what was that? I'm going to come work for you.
What does that mean? And I go home and I'm going to start a nonprofit. I mean, I never considered the church.
I'm like, what am I going to do? You know, what do you mean, God? I'll raise money and give it away, I guess. And then five days later, that guy called and said, hey, I have a job I want you to consider.
And I said, did you know five days ago, and he goes, no, I had no idea, I was just praying over this job description, and I think you're the guy, and I said, I was like, this is crazy, so that's how that happened. I, this is what, this is like what, why we do what we do, we just simply, even if we didn't have a camera on us, we just love hearing what Jesus does in other people's lives.
And there's so many things that we can talk about. But I just, I even want to just talk about like God's grace because Ari and I, he did the same thing in your life where he, he always, he's so gracious that he always looks at us as the finished product.
and he doesn't look at us as who we are in our sin and in the darkness and in the wrong that we're doing. And he saw you in all this sin and all this darkness and all like you're actively rejecting him being like, I literally don't want anything to do with you.
And he's looking at you being like, that's so funny because I'm actually going to make you the lead pastor at this church. And like you're going to reach millions of people.
And I always think about with me and Ari, even when we first started the podcast where we didn't deserve just like what you're saying. We deserve justice.
We deserve to be punished for the things that we have done and were involved in. But he chose to be like, but I know who you're going to be.
So let's focus on that person and just push you towards that person.

I don't know.

Whoever who's, who's been forgiven much loves much.

And I see that on your life, right? Just that, that heart for the loss, because you're like, Hey, God can save anybody.

And that's the narrative.

It's so crazy how we get so like pharisaical and, you know, prideful in our religion. The guy that led the rebellion against Jesus, like he's a terrorist.
He literally is a terrorist. And it says when Stephen's died, he's stoned.
He's murdered right there publicly. He stands over his death and affirms it and then leaves a revolt against Christianity, imprisoning, it says, women and children.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then God says, you're going to be the greatest missionary the world has ever seen.
It's so cool. You know, like that's what he does.
Yeah. And so, yeah.
I, you know, and I even want to speak to that about like having to do with Paul, because I've seen you speak in person and I'm not going to say where, but I saw you speak somewhere. And I remember seeing you not to compare you to anyone else, but I remember watching you speak verse watching other people speak.
And I realized that what's effective in preaching the gospel is when your heart shines through. And I remember that you were the only person that got up there and didn't, and theology is incredibly important and we have to know everything and we have to be educated, but you were the only one who literally you got up there and you were like, this is who I am.
This is who I've been. And this is what Jesus did in my life.
You're the only one who like showed up with your heart. And by seeing your heart, we saw the heart of God through that.
And I think about how like Paul, every, usually every time he addresses anybody or he like has to do a speech or tell people, this is why you should believe in Jesus. Basically, he always starts out with his story being like, I actually was somebody who persecuted and killed Christians.
but then I had a revelation of Jesus being the Messiah. And now this is why I believe.
So he always comes from a place of relatability and like, this is where I've been. So I'm not judging you, but I'm telling you that this is who you can become through Jesus.
And that's what you do all the time. Yeah.
Thank you. Thank you so much, Angela, for the encouragement.
Yet Paul says, I've become all things to all people so that by all means I might save some. And so he takes what is available to him and he leverages it for the sake of the kingdom.
And that's what I would say to your listeners. Like God has given you something, a talent, a skill.
Like if you have the Holy Spirit, you're a believer, the Holy Spirit then gives you gifts to be deployed in the local church that you would use those gifts and leverage them for the kingdom. And so you guys, I mean, so y'all, you have relationships in a particular place.
You have past work experiences. You have gifts that God has entrusted to you.
And you say, you know what? And you have a partnership and a friendship. And you're like, hey, let's do this.
Let's just take the talents we have and do a podcast. And God says, all right, I'm going to bless that.
I'm going to multiply that in the kingdom. Well, all of that is available to your viewers as well.
They have gifts and talents to be leveraged to use for the kingdom. Well, all of that is available to, to your viewers as well.
Like they, they, they have gifts and talents to be leveraged to use for the kingdom. And you asked about seminary, like every single time I wanted to go to seminary and, and there were multiple times to go for free.
Someone said, Hey, you, you can do this. Here's an easy path.
Hey, here's how you can get a degree. Hey, we'll pay for it.
And every time I was like, I went to my life group, my small group. And I just said, would you guys, I think I'm going to go to seminary.
I want to. I just don't want the fact that I don't have a theological degree to be a hindrance to someone coming to the faith.
And every time we prayed multiple times, it was just a really clear no. And I heard, I heard the Lord say, I want you to remove their excuse.
And I want to be careful how I say this because it can sound boastful. I am not smart.
Meaning like in the traditional sense, like IQ, I don't like to read. I struggle to read.
It is a real chore to read anything, including the scriptures for that matter. And, and so, and, and like I've learned the Bible, the 66 books of the Bible, you know, written over 1500 years by 40 different authors on three continents and three languages with one central theme of God getting his children back through his son, Jesus Christ.
And, and as I'm, as I'm learning that, it's like, if I can learn it, anybody can know, if I can know the word, anybody can know the word. And so he's just like, I just want you to take away their excuse.
I want, I want you to teach the word in a way that they, they, they can't say, well, surely you know it because you, you know, you have your MDiv or your THM or, you know, you, you went through to this school and education and university trained. It's like, no, no, no, no.
Just, just the word and God's people. And that is available to anybody watching right now.
Anybody listening right now. Gosh, I love that so much.
That's how I felt too. I always had trouble just learning and I didn't think I was qualified and I always say that to the listeners if I can learn, anyone can learn.
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We wanted to talk a little bit because I know it's hard as a man with sin. And so I wanted, we wanted to ask you about sin.
And you said something and it was like, you can't possibly be in peace when you know you're breaking God's heart. I love that you say that.
And I just wanted to know, how did you, was it just one day you had that awakening and stopped? Can you talk about a little bit about it? Yeah, that process and your sanctification. There were things that went away immediately.
Like the Holy Spirit just took them away. And I cussed like a sailor at the time.
And I just remember like if the F word came out, I felt bad. I was instantly convicted.
And I would read verses like Ephesians 429. Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouth, but only what is helpful for building others up so that it may benefit those who listen.
And like God just showed me that. And I had done coke.
You know, I had done MDMA, ecstasy. Nothing ripped my life like pornography and lust, and so that was the thing that was just really slow to die.
And it felt like, and I tried to rationalize it. And then I got, we got married and I remember asking a pastor and I'm just like, you know, I was like, Hey, is it okay if, if my wife and I look at this together, you know, because I just didn't know.

I was like, is this okay?

And I didn't realize how much that sin had gripped me. And I was trying to find any justification to continue in my habit.
And I always say like an addiction to porn is not an addiction to sex. It's an addiction to variety.
It is systematically training you to objectify not just people, but the act of sex, the gift of sex. And so that was slow.
And it only, you know, Jesus says this one only comes out with prayer and fasting. They're like, why couldn't we heal this man? He's like, this kind only comes out with prayer and fasting.
I think there's something to that because then in James chapter five,

verse 16,

it says,

confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be

healed for the prayers of a righteous person are powerful and effective.

And what the scripture is telling us is there is a,

there is a kind of sin that you will only experience healing from by

confessing it and having others pray over you consistently. And that's what pornography was for me as I would have to go.
And I learned, you know, over time with strong believers in my life to confess at the thought level. So one time like, you know, early on, you do something stupid.
You look at something you shouldn't, and then you confess it and people pray for you and they offer you accountability. But if you can back that confession up to, Hey guys, right now, I want to look at it.
I want to go here. Would you pray for me now? Because right now I'm tempted.
If you can confess at the thought level, that's a game changer. Like that is a path to victory.
And so, yeah, you know, and then there was, you know, there's other times like, uh, I drank. And so I go from, you know, drinking to get drunk for a long time and then realizing, Hey, I don't think drinking in all situations is a sin.
I think drunkenness is a sin, but that there would be times where I wouldn't know my limits. And, and, and I would, I would like, hey, last night I went out, had a margarita, but one turned to three.
And then I realized like, hey, I'm, I'm, you know, where's that line? Am I buzzed? Am I drunk? I don't know. But I just, I think I sinned against God and people would, and I would, they would receive prayer.
And so then I would say the confession, the fourth, Hey, tonight I'm, I'm going out with my friend for, you know, Tex-Mex and I may have margarita, but I'm, I'm asking, I'm telling you right now, it's just going to be one. And I would have to like, I would have to have accountability on the front end and confess things on the front end and have people pray for me on the front end.
And then it just, you know, as over time, that was a healing. It's not like I don't struggle.
Real, real talk. Someone asked, you know, they knew I was going to be on the show and they said, is Monica okay with that? You know, talking with you guys and my wife, she's literally the cutest thing I've ever seen.
I can't wait to meet her. And extremely secure, you know, extremely secure, but it's like, sure.
It's like, I want, I want people aware and praying for me and, you know, and, and just like at all times. And I, you know, to even to now in ministry, being a pastor, it's like, I don't want to travel alone.
I want people asking me hard questions. So when I get back and someone says, hey, did you look at anything? Did you watch anything you shouldn't have? Are you lying to me? Are you lying to me about lying to me? I don't feel attacked in that.
I feel loved and cared for in that. And I'm like, would you please do that? Would you please ask me? Because at this point, I want the ministry protected because listen, just like you, there's a giant target on anybody who is making their primary focus vocation and living off of telling others about Jesus and building the kingdom.
And there's a war against that right now on earth. And so we have to like pray and be protected.
Definitely. I mean, we, there's so much to talk about from all that you just said, but Ari and I, we know that stepping out on a public platform and talking about Jesus, like the warfare that we've, I mean, we look back on our life and I understand why, because I'm four years sober.
I don't know if you know that, but I had like a massive, thank you so much. I had a massive, truly praise God.
Truly. I had a, I just, I struggled all my life with just an addictive personality.
Like anything that I could find a vice in it, like even something harmless for me, I can make a vice out of it. know what I mean I have to be very conscious about like and aware of of even things like eating habits and being like am I getting too obsessive with this or is this becoming a thing more than it should and so basically I started drinking a lot because I experienced such horrific panic attacks so much fear like I would experience, like just fear would take over my body.
And I didn't have the language to put to it. I didn't know about spiritual warfare, but I look back and I know that the enemy was just, he was trying so hard to make me such a small version of myself that would never go out and do anything for Jesus.
And then we started a public ministry, honestly, like by accident. And we're very aware of like the enemy hates us and he hates what we're doing.
And so we have, we have to be more spiritually aware than ever and more careful than ever. I mean, we're to the point where we are so, we're scared to take even a tiniest step away from Jesus.
Even one F word scares me to say because I'm scared of separating from him because I don't know what's going to happen if that happens. You know what I mean? Any sin.
I'm just like, I can't do it because I can't afford it. You know? Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I thought about that this morning. I woke up this morning and was praying over the day and all that would happen.
And I just thought about the spiritual warfare against this and not to be like, not to be egocentric and think, oh, you know, the kingdom needed this podcast or anything like that. But it was just, this was hard.
No, no, no. You guys don't know what happened.
Guys, please. Ari and I, we had a red eye on Sunday night, 1245.
We get there early because we didn't because we've been missing flights lately. I don't want to talk about it.
We are we're in the airport until six o'clock in the morning. Our flight gets delayed and delayed and delayed.
We were supposed to record with JP yesterday. I'm texting you and the team at like three o'clock in the morning, emailing so dramatic.
I was so tired. I was like, guys, we're not going to make it.
And then we ended up, he has to go on like a three day conference trip. Poor guy.
He was just doing a conference. Like we, we were able to make this happen, but there was so much opposition just against this podcast, not to over spiritualize it, but there really was.
So we're all going on very little sleep. Do not hold our words against us.
But yeah, so in the throes of trying, so if I go back to that moment, I'm a believer, I'm in the church, I'm in a small group, and some things have just like the Holy Spirit just changed. And I'm in this process of sanctification.
I love the way you started. Like, hey, we're being we, we're going to meet you wherever you're at, but we're going to ask you not to stay there because the Holy Spirit means change.
Like God is changing us and conforming us to the image and the character of his son, Jesus Christ. And, and so we're all in that process while I'm at the beginning of that process.
And I, um, I had heard there's no greater way to overcome sin than to find a superior satisfaction in Jesus Christ. Now, that just sounds so churchy.
I mean, it was like soul stirring. And I'm like, that's good.
Let me think about what that means. There's no greater way to overcome sin than to find a superior satisfaction in Jesus Christ.
And I'm driving down the road and I'm just like worshiping in my car. And I am experiencing like I feel Christ is close, you know, like where it's the intimacy.
And there's this ad, like this billboard for this adult bookstore that's just right there on the highway. So funny.
And this beautiful woman wearing very little clothes on it. And I'm and every day, like at the end of the day, I would look at that, you know, cause that's just, I had, that's what I had done.
I was just lost in my sin. And, uh, and on this particular day, I was approaching it and I was just like, it's not worth it.
It's not worth, I'm not, it's not, it's not worth compromising this kind of the, like,

Hey, I'm afraid of, of one little F word. And I think that is, and people say, well, you shouldn't be afraid, you know, perfect love casts out fear.
I'm like, no, no, the fear of God is the fear of being separated from him. And while we're not separated from him, because he says in Romans, neither height nor death or nothing in all of creation will separate us from the love of God.
Romans 8. We do experience a loss of intimacy when we give in a sin.
You cannot pursue Christ and sin at the same time. You can't grow closer to Jesus in your sin.
So if you're sleeping around right now and you're like, I just don't know why God feels so far. If you're pursuing some, any kind of substance right now to alter your mind, right? And you're like, I just don't know why God feels so far.
I don't know why I'm experiencing anxiety. I don't know why I'm experiencing panic.
It's like, listen, we go here. I'm a pastor at a pastor at a church.
Like I, I, I teach the Bible for a living, but I had just started writing books and I tell my, my guys, my small group, I'm like, I, I, I feel a spiritual ego. Like, I think I'm growing prideful.
I need y'all to pray for me because I feel like, like, um, I'm starting to believe the hype, you know, I think I'm a big deal or something. And would y'all pray for me? And, and I'm doing so much.
I'm running and speaking at this church and going on this podcast and doing these things. And, and man, I like feel this tingling sensation in my head and I'm like, what is that? And, and then my heart starts skipping beats and I end up in, and then I'm driving down the road and my left arm goes numb.
And I'm like, I'm having a heart attack. Like I'm, I'm about to die.
Like I'm not going to be able to walk my daughters down the aisle. Like what in the world is happening to me right now? Go to the emergency room.
And, and I would try to go to, I couldn't sleep. I tried to go to sleep and it felt like lightning struck me.
I'd jump up in a panic attack. And, and it was, it was, it's the same thing.
It can happen. It's not like once you become a Christian, like now you're safeguarded from all of that.
No, at any moment you, you know, it's like whack-a-mole, like sin is always coming after you. There's always an option to sin.
And so at that moment in my life, it wasn't porn. It wasn't alcohol.
It wasn't drugs. It wasn't sex outside of my marriage.
It was pride and ego and arrogance. And that's what caused it.
And it's like, okay, I got to slow down, stop. I've got to deal with that.
What is at the root of all of this? And I'm not saying that your anxiety is always the result of sin. There can be a lot of things that cause that, like a brain injury, for example.
But in my case, it was. In my situation, it certainly was.
Yeah, absolutely. We had Jenny Allen on and she was talking about- She's the worst.
She's so, we love her so much, but she was talking about how, um, she was talking about how, like, of course you can have depression and anxiety for a multitude of things, reasons. Like, I mean, a genetic, um, it could be hereditary brain damage, like you said, but so much of it is sin.
And Ari and I experienced that for, I mean, it was the craziest thing to finally enter a relationship with Jesus and be like, oh yeah, that's why I'm having panic attacks all day because I'm treating my body like garbage. I'm literally abusing alcohol and substances and being involved in things that I should not be involved in.
And then I'm wondering why my life is absolute chaos and destruction. Of course it is.
Yeah. Have you seen that TikTok where it's like, I can't remember how it starts.
It's like, man, I just, I don't know why I feel so bad. And it's like, well, did you get, you know, are you eating? No.
Did you get enough water? No. Did you sleep? No.
Did you work out? No. Did you? It's's so true it's like there's like a christian version of that it's like i just don't know why god it feels so far right now it's like are you spending time in the scriptures no are you spending time in prayer no are you doing no you know it's so good i um i did want to ask you because porn is something that like we've been wanting to talk about for a while and it's not something that you know we've necessarily struggled with like that so it's hard to talk about because we wanted somebody to be able to speak from experience but I was even talking to I was talking to Ari and Maddie last night and we were talking about porn and about men and I just want you to speak to this especially the guys, because we do have a large male audience.

Why tell us why porn is bad? Because from my understanding, one of the main reasons why porn makes men so weak, because that's what it does.

It makes them incredibly weak is because you get the reward without having to actually pursue or work for anything.

What's what you're seeing in the world today?

It's why it's why we're getting married less. We're getting married later and marriages aren't lasting because the whole gaming culture and the whole porn culture, you know, it's an aspect of technology is rewarding the shortcut.
And so guys have no idea how to pursue a girl like they I mean, they it's moved from, you know, face to face. Here's some flowers.
Would you, you know, may I take you out on Tuesday to an explicit text message? Because they have no idea how to engage a woman. I mean, they literally don't know how.
And the root cause of that is absolutely pornography. And so we're going to go.
We're going to go to a an honest we're going to have an honest conversation. And between two women in a studio, people are going to be like, that's weird.
Let me just say got other people behind the cameras you can't see in the room with us. And here's what I would say is pornography and masturbation is the highest high, I'm saying in air quotes, the highest high that you can experience naturally.
This is God's design. God said thousands and thousands of years ago, in the very, in the second chapter of the very first book of the Bible, he says, for this reason, a man will leave his father and mother, be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.

So that's a weird language.

Two people becoming one flesh? What's he saying there? Now, 2024, secular science, psychology, psychiatry would say that when you experience release climax orgasm, if I can say that word, when you experience that your brain creates a synapse, a synapse is like a muscle. Your brain is bonding you to your surroundings.
And so God invented sex, like sex is his invention, father, son, and Holy Spirit saying, Hey, we're going to create the parts. We're going to make them function the way they do, fit the way they do.

We're going to put the nerve endings where they are so that it feels the way that it

does.

God made sex feel good.

That was his, like in the same way that Steve Jobs invented the iPhone, God invented sex.

In the same way that Elon Musk invented Tesla, God invented sex.

He said, hey, this is, this is what, well, why God? Why did you do that? It's really clear. It's obvious once you think about it.
He said, because I want to, the first great commission, fill the earth and multiply it. I'm sorry, fill the earth and subdue it.
Be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it. Sorry.
Be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it. He's saying, hey, I want you to know me.
I want you to come together, have babies and raise those babies to know me. Fill the earth with my people.
This is God. This is the first great commission, not Matthew 28.
It starts in Genesis. Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth with my people.
And so he says the way that you do that is when a man and a woman come together and they experience intimacy, life is born. And you can literally have the ability to grow a human.
It's unbelievable, right? Like you can grow a human being and then you can raise that human being in a home, in a God ordained institution of the home. And then you make disciples.
You literally create them. You make disciples.
And then also the other reason that he makes sex is to bond a husband to his wife and a wife to her husband so that as they come together, that the marriage is safeguarded. And as they experience intimacy in that way, then she remains the epitome of attraction to him.
And he remains the epitome of attraction to her because you're always like, I always ask young adults, I'm like, hey, are you attracted to an 80 year old? And you're like, no, ooh, that's gross. You got to understand one day you're going to be 80, God willing, and your spouse is going to be 80.
And hopefully you at 80, you can still experience intimacy, God willing. Right.
And, And that's still the attractor. You're still going to be 80.
And hopefully at 80, you can still experience intimacy, God willing, right? And that's still the attraction. You're still going to be attracted to the 23-year-old co-ed, right? That's still a thing.
But if you have safeguarded the marriage and you've stayed together and you've only pursued each other, then that marriage is a safe place for you to experience intimacy. This is God's design.
Now imagine what happens when you introduce pornography. I told you pornography, it's not an addiction to sex.
It's an addiction to variety. So for the porn addict, there's no hope for monogamy.
A porn addict cannot be satisfied in a committed relationship. They just can't because they've gone to the classroom, psych 101, the university.
They've reconditioned and retrained their brain. They've retrained the pathways.
They've retrained the synapses to bond to a two-dimensional image or a video over and over and over and over and over again,

so that when they get in a marriage, it's not sticky.

So for me, I married Monica.

We're believers now.

We became Christians.

We had had sex before marriage, and then we became Christians.

And it was like, man, pull the parking brake on that.

No way.

Yeah, we're not going to have sex anymore.

And I was like, oh, this is really difficult. We should get married.
It's not super romantic, but I was like, we should get married. And so we get married and, and, uh, you know, and it's a Christian wedding and like, we love Jesus at this time in our lives.
And we go and, and the preacher says, makes us, or has to say these crazy promises for rich or poor, sickness and health till death do us part. I will love you the rest of my life.
We kiss. We walk down the aisle.
Hold her in my arms. She's in her white wedding dress and with my tux.
Hold her in my arms. And I say this prayer back of the foyer, the chapel.
God, thank you for allowing me to escape the consequences of my sins. And what I meant when I said that was like, even though I had looked at porn and even though I was promiscuous, like I still got married and I'm like, I got the reward.
Like, look, look at me. And I really a year into marriage, first year's honeymoon is all good.
And then second year, I realized I didn't escape the consequences because I had thought consequences like an STD or a child out of wed or a child out of a wedlock or, you know,

a psycho ex-girlfriend wanting to kill me, you know, something like that. And I, I'm, I'm a year and I know that people have those consequences.
Well, what's crazy is I would have rather had those consequences. I would have had much rather had to take a pill or to, to support a child or to dodge the bullets because I'm stuck in this marriage

and I don't know how to be married because I've systematically trained my brain toward

variety for years since the fifth grade, since the fifth grade.

And now I'm in a marriage and I'm like, I don't know what to do.

I feel so stuck.

I don't know that I love you.

I don't think you love me. We both won out, you know, divorces on the table and praise God.
Like he put believers around us to help us navigate that. But then it was a long path of recovery.
And so people are like, oh, you know, you, you look at porn and you think, oh, it's no big deal. It's like, no, it's you, we have no idea how big of a deal it is.
And I'm not trying to scare you. Uh, I'm, I'm trying to present reality to you so that you pursue recovery now today, because before you get into a marriage, you've got to find healing.
I mean, you need James 5, 16 healing from that. Otherwise it's going to impact not just you, but your spouse and your children.
And this is not just a male problem. Uh, one in three viewers of pornography are female.
And I talked to female, I talked to women all the time that are like, man, nobody's talking about it. I'm like, listen, we got to talk about it.
I mean, people are in bondage to this stuff. Do you feel like the, the pornography and the masturbation also opens demonic doors? Sure.
Any sin. I think any, so it says in Ephesians 4, do not give the devil a foothold.
What you do when you, so it's like right now, like with pornography being a temptation for me, it's like I've got that door shut. I've deadbolted it.
I've locked it. I've got my back against it, you know, and Satan's on the other, other side of that door.
And it's like, if I'm scrolling through Instagram and I click on hashtag and then I'm like, Oh, I wonder where this will go. And, you know, hoping in the back of my mind that it's going to go somewhere, you know, nudity.
And, and, and I look at something that I shouldn't look at. What I just did is I just slowly, I did the, I undid the deadbolt, undid the chain, you know, I, and I turned the knob and I just cracked the door open and I was like, Hey, here I am.
Come get me. It's that easy.
And so absolutely. Like we all have demonic forces pursuing us all the time.
And they have strategies against us. They've studied us.
They've studied humans since creation. And they, you know, you probably have one assigned to you that is potentially assigned to multiple people.
And they've studied you, you know, and there's a war against you. So absolutely, that's why like prayer is our weapon.
And the word, the scripture is our weapon. You know, 1 Corinthians 6, flee sexual immorality.
All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually sins against their own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you've received from God? You are not your own.
You've been bought by a price. Therefore, honor God with your body.
First Thessalonians 4, learn to control your body in a way that is holy and honorable before the Lord. First Peter 5, you know, abstain from the sin that wages war against you.
Job 31.1, I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at another woman. Like these are your weapons.
These are your weapons. You have to know them and fight with them because it's a spiritual war.
So you have to have spiritual weapons. Thank you, Jesus.
And it is, I mean, just this area of our lives, like being able to really let Jesus work in us and do like a true purification and truly like start in the heart and not just like not sinning, but having a pure heart and clean hands has radically transformed our lives and the quality of our life and the peace that we have. Like it's, it's just so worth pursuing purity in this way.
Porn is so bad. It's so bad.
And I just, I pray that everybody is able to find the community that can pray over them and that we all do start confessing the sins that we don't tell people. We have to have a whole episode on how important it is to confess because you can't, it's nearly impossible to get over something, to get delivered from something when nobody knows about it.
Put the strongest believers, you know, on a group text right now, just put the strongest believers, you know, on a group text and, um, and, and just say, Hey, would you pray for me in this area of my life and confess something to them? And then follow it up with, Hey, can we meet up and pray at this day and time?

And like right there,

that's,

that's the beginning of,

of a path of healing for each of you.

You know,

it's like,

that's a really simple step you can take right now.

Let's do that.

I'm like,

let's do that.

Um,

we're each other's group chat.

You should see us all day long calling each other out.

We're just like,

we don't let each other get away with anything,

but I,

okay.

So last thing,

I want to talk about because you and Monica have been married for how long? 20 years. 20.
Wow. I am so like, she is so, so beautiful.
And like you guys, just what you've shared with us today. And you're so vulnerable to tell us that it was hard and you've had hard moments and you had to fight through it.
And especially the consequences of sin, then like being dragged into your marriage and like the baggage that comes with that. How I just, I want to ask, because I heard you say something along the lines of, it was a clip and you were like, my advice to young people is basically find the godliest person, you know, and then just go marry them.
And I think that's really good advice. I think that's honestly the closer that I get killed for it, but okay.
Like, no, the, the, the closer that I get to Jesus and okay, you've said something else because JP does, you guys need to follow Jonathan on Instagram because he does these Q&A's and you do them every like every Friday, every Friday. And they're so they're genuinely so helpful.
And you said something like, oh, God, I just lost it. What was it? You said something.
Oh, somebody asked, like, should I be dating if I'm not ready for marriage? And you were like, if you're not ready for marriage, like, why would you date? That doesn't even make sense. And you're basically saying that people should not be in these, like, four or five year long relationships not getting married.
Like, either get married or don't date. And Ari and I obviously come from, like, very worldly dating.
And, like, we weren't, you know, dating the way that God intended us to. And I've have been in four year relationships, three year relationships, five years since I was like 15 years old.
And now I'm literally like, well, I don't, I wouldn't even consider dating someone for, I won't even date somebody unless I think we might get married. You know what I mean? Now that I'm actually walking with Jesus, there's just not a chance that I'm just in this relationship and possibly not getting married.
Okay. So this is going to be really radical to some of your viewers and listeners.
And so I just pray through it. Give consideration to it.
I'm approaching this with logic. Dating, as we know and understand it, is a very new phenomenon modern about 120 years old the word dating entered the english language as a euphemism for prostitution it was on a radio show a guy said she's turning dates meaning she's sleeping with other guys is what he said and that was the first time that word was ever used in the English language.
And then that became dating. 120 years ago, prior to that, it really exploded with the invention of the automobile.
So before that, you know, you would date on the front porch, or you would date in the living room with the family, you know, somebody would come over and it's like, hey, this is my family. And you'd meet the family and you'd hang out and maybe play a game or something.
Well, now it's like back of a movie theater or dinner at your apartment. And so our whole dating culture has been hyper-sexualized.
And so prior to 120 years ago, and the only example we have in the scripture is arranged marriage. And so what that looks like today, you say, are you a pro a pro arranged marriage? I would say I am with an asterisk, meaning what I mean by that is in Song of Solomon, chapter one, verse four says their friends praised their love more than wine, more than the party, that everyone came around and said, these two belong together.
That makes sense. And, and dating it's, it's, it's a really pragmatic, it's really pragmatic.
It's a metaphor. Ephesians 5, husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself for her.
He talks about husbands, wives, church, Christ. He says, this is the profound mystery that I'm presenting to you.
I'm not really talking about marriage. I'm talking about Jesus and his bride, the church.
So God gives us marriage to teach us about the way that Jesus is going to love his church and lay his life down or has laid down his life for his bride, the church, the church's Jesus followers. So this is the story of scripture.
And so I've got daughters in high school, right? I mean, they are, you know, boys ask them out, all the things, right? And so we have to talk about this. And it's really challenging because I'm like, hey, you dating right now, it's probably most likely a guaranteed heartbreak.
Like that's where this goes is you begin to meet with someone, you like them a whole lot, and then either your feelings change or their feelings change or something else happens. But statistically, it's very unlikely that this relationship in your junior year of high school or your freshman year of high school is going to turn into marriage.
And so dating, like it was never meant to be this thing that we just do for sport or fun. It just, nowhere in the scripture are you going to find that, but that's modern place today.
Like that's just the way that we date. And so I would say it depends on what you mean by dating.
If you mean going on a relationship with a friend of the opposite sex to learn how to treat them, to be kind to them, to care for them, to leave them better than you found them. That's awesome.
If you mean by dating, playing married, like, Hey, I'm in a committed relationship. I'm handing my heart over on a platter and I'm going to tell them I love them and we're going to make out.

And then you're going to go through, there's a really good chance that you're going to go through a divorce. I mean, the statistics around cohabitation, people that move in together before marriage and actually have a healthy marriage, it is unbelievably low.

One statistic I looked at was at 2%.

98% of those do not end in happy marriages. Wow.
That's mind blowing. Like who's talking about that? So I'm just like, we've got to do, we've got to find a new way.
We have to find a new way to find someone forever, you know, our, our, our, our spouse, if you will. thank you so much we could literally go all the way

so guys find the godliest girl ever, you know, our, our, our spouse, if you will. Thank you so much.

We could literally go all day.

So guys, find the godliest girl, you know, and ask her out because, you know, charm is

deceitful, beauty is fleeting.

A woman who fears the Lord is to be praised.

Like this is what the book of wisdom tells you in the most important book that has ever

been written.

Amen.

Amen.

Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you guys.
It was so fun. Thank you so much.
Thank you all for making it happen. Of course.
We'll have another conversation one day, hopefully. Please.
Please. Guys, follow Jonathan on everything.
You truly won't regret it. Watch all of his sermons.
Listen to his Q&A's that he does. Get his book.
Get his book. So kind.
Why do I do what I don't want to do?

We need to read this.

I'm reading it today.

Okay, thank you so much.

Guys, we love you so, so much.

May the Lord bless you and keep you.

May he make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you.

May he turn his face towards you and give you all peace and self-control.

In Jesus' name we pray.

We love you guys so much. Amen.
Amen. Amen.
Amen. Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

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Amen.

Amen.

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Amen.

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Amen.

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Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen. Thank you.
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