Natasha Lyonne

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Hello, everyone.

Welcome to another episode of Good Hang.

I'm so excited about our episode today.

It is with the sweet, dreamy, and brilliantly smart Natasha Leone.

We talk about so many things today.

It is

a symphony of conversation.

We talk about what it was like to live in New York City as a young kid.

We talk about Nora Efron and how important she was to Natasha.

We talk about making hits together and

what it felt like to be part of a show that meant so much to us and to so many people.

And so it is a really interesting, funny, and deep conversation, like it always is with Natasha.

And to be guided as to what I should ask, I always like to check in with people who know Natasha well, who have worked with her, who count her as family.

And so I asked

two of Natasha's closest friends to join me and give me some questions to ask.

And so joining me right now via Zoom is Ronan Farrow, journalist, podcast host of the new podcast, not a very good Murderer, and playwright, actor, screenwriter, and creative director of the Williamstown Theater Festival, the great Jeremy O'Harris.

Ronan, Jeremy, hello.

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First of all, let me start.

Where am I talking to you?

Where are you, Jeremy, in the world?

Oh my God, do you want, I don't want to embarrass myself, but I'm trying to get a very popular actress to do a movie I'm producing.

So I'm still with her at Jack's Wife's Frida with the director, and I am in the bathroom of Jack's Wife's Frida on university.

Oh my God.

So you're in the bathroom of a restaurant trying to secure an actress for a project.

Yes, I'm a girl boss like you, and I'm just trying to make sure all my side hustles flow.

Very, very good.

I love it.

Always hustling, always moving forward, never looking back.

Perfect.

And then Ronan, where are you?

I'm in my home office on the Lower East Side, not trying to convince a glamorous actress of anything right now.

But, you know, the day is young.

I could find an actress to try to persuade in some way.

Yep, maybe.

I'm going to try to keep up here.

Jeremy's a lot to keep up with.

I mean, I have so many questions.

And I hope, by the way, that both of you come on so I can get in

depth about what you're both.

I mean, you're both such interesting, brilliant people.

And I guess my question is, what, you know, when you think about Natasha and you think about her in the world, a person in the world, like how, how,

how would you,

how would you describe who Natasha is as a person and a friend?

Jeremy, you want to start?

I would say she has more intellect in her left pinky than most than most departments of major universities have.

She is truly the, and yet she has this great ability of making you feel like the biggest star ever, even at your lowest.

So it's like wild intelligence and wild generosity combined into this sort of atomic bomb of like the ideal friend.

That's so well said.

Ronan?

My sense as kind of a

broken person from a broken home in some ways myself is that that runs very deep.

And you know, you know her deeply.

And so I think you could ask her about that on a profound level, where she is searching for a sense of family and successfully creating it.

I mean, that's the main thing that I would add to this conversation.

Natasha, for all the ways she's like riotously fun and

eclectic in the things she does and the people she surrounds herself with, and it's a wild ride being around her.

She also, she is family to those.

dear to her.

And like, I really became more deeply close with her in a period of my life where I was at a low point, and she didn't even really have a way of knowing that, but I was like profoundly broken and lonely.

And all of a sudden, we went from being acquaintances to her being like,

every night, you know, come dinner time, Jeremy's very familiar with this.

You'll get a text from her being like, What are we doing?

Who are we screwing?

You know, and then it's like

Natasha's wild circus, you know,

is off to the races.

And

through that persistence and that kind of like lack of traditional boundaries, she's not indiscriminately that way, but when she decides like,

no, this is a real one and I want to give them my emotional space and time.

It's such a gift because she really like pulled me out of a moment of isolation and gave me a meaningful sense of family.

And all of a sudden we went from like zero to 11, 11 being like.

spending the holidays together, you know, and I was like, bring her to meet my family.

We were going on vacations, sometimes with Jeremy.

It's, it is a real gift.

And it's something that I've learned from.

Like if you, in our busy lives, with all these different distractions and things going on that prevent reflection and prevent deeper community sometimes, if you can do what Natasha Leon does to the people you love around you and just like keep at them and make it happen.

I think that is actually the most meaningful way we can form community in a time when we really need it.

We really need it individually.

We really need it as a country.

So Natasha is the answer to everything.

See, this is why it's so annoying that you went second because you're so like, I would have made mine better had I known that you were just literally a mini.

Yeah, you know, screw Jeremy's superficial bullshit answer.

They're community building.

Okay, what you guys seem to be to her, tell me if I'm wrong, is there's a very fraternal energy with you and Natasha.

Like, do you feel like her brother, her wife, her lover, her mother?

Like, where do, where, what, if this is a family, who are you to her?

In the many group chats, I'll give like, I'll send that clip of Oprah talking about Gail King, where she's like, she is the mother I never had.

She is the sister everybody wants.

She is the friend none of us deserve.

Like, like, she is all of those things.

And that's why I think she's been the ideal, like, you know, sort of like

egg donor for my future sperm, which is something Ron and I have fought over, like who gets to take the Natasha eggs.

I think that, like, you know, in a society where eugenics is becoming back in fashion, Natasha and I would make super babies, as would she and Ronan.

Oh, so that is so true.

That is, that's a future world.

Jeremy, Natasha baby would be great.

That's a beautiful future world we can all envision right now in our heads.

Amazing.

Amazing.

Also, I want to change this podcast to just Jeremy walking through the streets of New York and us following.

Wait, what's happening with your actress while you're strolling?

So sorry.

She's outside having a cigarette with the director.

and i thought they were leaving

to her just so we can see her yeah spill the tea jeremy is she i can't until she says yes i can't let you know but you've got to put a post-production coda on this episode i will okay if we yes if we get her involved please but for right now we're just going to change her face into a cat and we'll we'll reveal it if she says yes

um thank you both so so much you know i have to say that One of the nicest things about this is the feedback I get from guests who feel very seen and loved when when we ask people who love them to join.

So I have no doubt that Natasha is going to be so thrilled that we talked because, like you said, she's a connector.

And

I think she's just going to just.

So, so I thank you.

And on behalf of Natasha, I thank you for jumping on today.

I know you're both so busy.

Thank you so much.

I really love her.

I hope it was helpful, did her justice in whatever small way I can because she's important to me.

She's been a real lifeline to me.

Yeah.

I love her too.

I love her too.

Thank you so much, Amy.

You're the best.

Thank you so much, cuties.

Hand me the neck.

Honey, it's so tight.

It's so tight.

And also, I want to put it in a second.

If you want to know anything about the history of Russian golf, the tightest vaginas in the game came together.

We're with Natasha Leone.

She's joining us.

That's right.

You know, brief history of the time.

It's like Stephen Hawking.

The universe expands and contracts.

And that's what you need to know about women and send them and nobody can get from vagina to stephen hawking faster than natasha leon right so natasha leon you're here

we have known each other for

um quite a while now i would say coming up on maybe 20 years and so i would say maybe coming up on 30 which is an exercise i'm not proud to have recently done with our friend clear duvall uh you know clear directs this season last season she played my sister she's my best friend you know big crush on polar uh and And

forever.

And rightfully so.

Put me in a sandwich.

Everyone's married.

That's not how it works, guys.

Fantasy.

So, but so Clea

directs this season, does a great job.

No spoilers, but she does direct Method Man, who's my favorite.

No offense.

Fantastic.

I mean, we have the same sense of humor.

The guest list on that show is incredible.

I have an image of you, a memory of you coming by UCB.

And of course I knew who you were.

And I have this image of you being like at the time feeling like you were seeming and presenting quite shy, like

gentle and shy.

Like we didn't really.

I was stoned.

Oh, yeah.

I don't smoke pot anymore.

And I was probably drunk.

And I also, I haven't had a drink in 20 years.

Yeah.

I'm thinking about it.

Yeah.

Today.

So we met.

Do you remember when we first met?

So our friend, so Jake Fogelnest.

Yes.

so I was like 16.

You were 16 then?

I was 16, and Jake Foglenest was 16.

Wow.

All right, when I was 15, uh, he's very popular now.

Have you heard of Woody Allen?

Uh, okay, so I did this film called Everyone Says I Love You.

Woody Allen was my dad, Goldie Hahn was my mother.

I finally felt seen thanks to that on-set tutor.

I discovered that's a realist movement, Apocalypse Now, Heart of Darkness.

I mean, so many things changed through that tutor.

Anyway, I was 15, left behind behind with a guardian because my mom was well.

And so I lived underneath or on the, you know, ground floor, so I guess adjacent to Curry in a Hurry, which is on 28th and Lexington.

And

this woman, she was a criminal attorney.

Her name was Ruth.

She worked at an office with Jake Folenestad.

I guess as criminal attorneys at law, I'm guessing it was called.

And for some reason, it was like, oh, both these kids are like 15, 16.

And Jake had that show on, was it MTV?

He had like an MTV show where he was like a young fan interviewing like the Beastie Boys.

Yeah.

Bjork.

Yep.

He had a really good guess.

And Jake is a really sweet, tender, learned guy who like

liked a lot of things and liked showing that he was enthusiastic about a lot of things and was a writer and.

creator at a young age.

And so sort of the basis for Wayne's World, if you've ever seen, so Wayne's World is about these two guys.

And, but he was kind of the basis of that, like, you know, a sort of a public broad, what's that called?

Yeah, public access.

Public access show in his mom's bedroom as a kid.

So he was sort of like this, you know, young prodigy.

I was doing this movie.

We were introduced.

And the point is, is that Jake was a comedy,

like, I was never a comedy nerd.

I would say I'm still not, frankly.

I just,

but he was sort of my gateway drug.

And so he was the one that knew about UCB.

He was the one that was bringing me to SNL.

And

I think that I was about 16.

Wow.

So you were 16.

Yeah.

Cause I do remember

a sweet and, you know, like a,

yeah, a younger, quieter version of you then.

And it was, I remember you coming around with these big eyes and like observing a lot of stuff that was happening there and being very sharp and funny and everyone loving your work already, and you, but you being

like just even back then, where when you're in the room, people want to head towards you like moth to flame.

You have a electricity about you.

And you did then.

And I remember that.

And you're really taking me back.

Like I'm pausing and taking off to McManus.

I want to take a minute because I remember that.

And also it was like, it takes me back to a much younger time too.

We were like, I, we were only a few years apart, but it felt like a long, we were, we were, I don't know, I felt like an old, old person.

Well, because to me, you felt like just this rock star.

Just because, first of all, I've never been a stage person.

So, figure I've been, you know, acting since I'm four.

I just turned 21, uh, 46.

And uh, so at that point, I had been a child actor, I'd been on Peep's Playhouse, yeah, very famously.

I was Dennis the Menace's babysitter and Dennis the Menace, okay, not that famous.

Uh, Christopher Lloyd and Walter Matthew were there.

Didn't know who I was.

Small part.

And, you know, so I'm just saying, I always say this to like Christina Ricci or Macaulay Fulkin.

I'm like, yeah, but you guys were child stars.

I was a child character actor.

I see.

Yeah.

That is different.

You're right.

That is different.

Yeah.

So I wasn't really like exposed at that level, but emotionally, the kind of tether that we all have are Haley Joel Live

this season and Pokeface Peacock.

So he is also a child star.

There's like this unspoken way that we look at each other in the eyes and we're just like, I know that you have been alert and awake since you were four years old.

And so have I.

It's so specific.

It's eerie.

Because it's like, that means I was doing the family taxes at 12 years old.

I was like, you know, there's a lot that goes along with that.

Yeah.

Of paying the bills, being alert, knowing how to like present

to adults.

Yeah, there's a big price to pay for that.

And also access that you get get at an age that you may or may not be ready for.

It's a long way of saying by the time I'd seen you on stage doing like ASCAT, I was in shock just because my life had been like, I'd done 60 commercials and I had been

for three seconds on screen.

And as the world turns, you know, some episodes of PBS Playoffs, some weird movies I made, you know, but like you just bound it up there.

Even your show recently with Tina, it's sort of this thing that I was just like, what is this activity?

Because I was was not a theater person.

I've never taken an acting lesson.

You know what I mean?

So it was like, what is this weird, like athletic sport of confidence where it's just so much running?

Well, it's just that it's inside of you.

Like, I think I learned so much from you and from Fred about that.

This like abundance idea of an endless supply, probably I think that you guys get from dress rehearsal at SNL, where you throw out genius ideas and just move on to the next day instead of lingering on something like a diary entry.

Oh my God, I wrote a sentence.

Yes.

It's funny you say that.

I do feel that one of the things about that training is you,

you, you can't believe that your

good idea is your last good idea.

And in fact, throwing it away is like a power move to remind you that the next good idea is right behind it.

You cannot get too precious about anything.

And you get athletic in terms of like practicing, coming up with an idea.

Because I'm at a a point now, I don't know about you, but I feel like sometimes we make the idea king.

And I'm much more into people and process.

I think an idea is what it is.

It can be shined to be this beautiful idea.

It can be totally dull in the wrong hands, but an idea is not as important.

A concept is not as important as people and process for me.

I hear you.

Like, and it's so much so that in that whole exercise they do in pitch meetings of why now or something, or like, what's it about?

It's kind of like, hey, babe, just so you know, Amy and I could make a show right now about this pair of sunglasses.

It doesn't fucking matter.

And the reason why now is because whatever where you and I are at in this moment emotionally, that we're,

you know, saucy for us, or to use your word, juicy, right?

We'll make this pair of sunglasses go live on that story.

And, you know, it's but it's, it's but a prop for our kind of inner now-ness or something of what we find interesting.

And it'll be filmed in either black and white or color or, you know, on 16 or the AI generate.

Who gives a fuck?

Like, it's really going to be about where we're at emotionally.

It's not actually, it's all in the execution and the human beings that you're doing it with.

It's not actually

the idea.

That's right.

When you talk about young Tosh, can you give me a little like a snapshot of young Natasha in New York City walking around?

Like, what did it look like when you were were seven, eight, nine

walking around?

What did your New York look like?

Where were you?

She's thinking to herself, and this is where I get mixed up, okay?

Because I couldn't tell you if I've seen too many movies dusted, not on PCP, on dust.

Have you guys ever just tried raw dust?

You go to the film forum, you just put your fingers along the side of the seat, and you just wave it gently in your periphery.

Just dust.

New York dust.

Oh, man, that's just New York pure dust.

it's not even it's not even a trust have you guys ever snorted ether it's crazy so anyway i couldn't tell you okay if it was de niro and taxi drive

or it was me in times square as a seven-year-old is what i'm trying to say amy polar i want it but i just i remember being left behind at various castings in my mind there's this uh alcoholic figure let's call him dad uh and i

i'm there I'm at an audition or like, you know, I was a child model.

That's probably why I pose so well.

There we get to it.

I was a Ford model.

There we go.

Later I moved to close-ups.

I remember him casting rooms in Midtown.

Also my mother.

Paul Rubens

so lovingly said to me when he took me to a steak dinner in the valley after rehab,

he said to me, oh, Natasha, don't worry about it.

I was never shocked when things went south.

You're going to be okay.

But it was inevitable.

You got to remember, I met your mother.

So it was a real comfort for me that there was a witness to that time in my life.

The only other one I really have is, I guess I have Gabby Hoffman and Natalie Portman and Lucas Huss, because they were also in that Woody Allen movie where already I had

a guardian.

Right.

And by the way, my mom is awesome and so is my dad.

Like they're really like brainy, wonderful people.

I would just say that the big discovery of modern times is we have treated versus untreated mental health, addiction, whatever.

Like now that's, that's the revelation.

It's like, there's no shame

in whatever your mental health or, you know, addiction or whatever else.

It's about, you know, are you treated or untreated?

Like, are you experiencing a cycle of shame where you refuse to get help for it?

Or are you doing your best, you know, in the day you're in, one day at a time to kind of address it?

I just think they didn't know.

Like, honestly, I think it was the 80s.

There was a lot of cocaine around.

And I just think that was the best they could do.

You know, I forgive them for it.

Cut to the end of the story.

I do recall a lot of me in Midtown, sort of like I'd go into the audition or the modeling casting commercial or

print.

And when I came out, sort of like, where are they?

You know what I mean?

And sort of like walking around Midtown.

And this is where I can't remember if it's me or De Niro and taxi driver.

I because now it's such a cleaned up hood with Disney.

Back then, there was a lot of, it was a lot of stuff.

So, I remember being kind of like street-wise.

Yeah.

Because, like, if you just sort of, you had to, you know, kids, we didn't have cell phones.

Uh, right.

We didn't even necessarily know how to use a yellow pages.

Uh, you just had to sort of like know how to kind of sit still and have a sense of where they might reappear.

Right.

And be big and small at the same time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And know how to like, there's this De Niro Niro quote that I read about getting recognized in New York.

He's like, I'm a professional.

If I want to get recognized and I need a seat at a restaurant, I just, you know, put on my De Niro face, throw my shoulders back, and I'm a famous guy.

And if I want to walk through Manhattan and have some peace of mind, I just disappear into myself and I become part of the wall, you know?

Yeah.

So for some reason, that really resonated with me.

And I think

even as a kid, I sort of learned how to do that of sort of like, I need help versus I'm in Midtown Manhattan.

So I need to disappear into myself.

Yeah.

So, you know, there's no human trafficking.

Yes.

Yes.

Essentially.

You know, so we do this thing on the show where we talk to people before our guest comes who may know them or like be fans of theirs or have some,

you know, experience being in their lives to kind of like talk well behind their back.

And they also give me questions

they think I should ask you.

So

we spoke to Ronan

and Jeremy just about an hour ago

about you.

Uh-oh.

Did they tell you that I tried to get shaman from both of them because I had a fantasy about

having 13 children?

They're fighting over your eggs currently.

They have

now.

Congrats, by the way.

By the way.

But wait.

So Ronan and Jeremy,

of course, they dearly, dearly love you, as do I.

And we talked a lot about how

you have this

way in which you

bring people together, right?

You really want

to

create a group, a family in the way you bring people together.

And,

you know, Ronan wanted me to ask you, which is,

like, do you,

like, do you feel that way?

Like you're collecting family when you bring people into your life?

So just to say, like, yeah, because I have this

wacky family of origin story where like, I mean, yeah, just, you know, the facts are they just simply don't exist.

You know what I mean?

Like I,

they exist in my mind's eye.

Harrowing degrees, you and I made a whole show about it.

Jeremy and I recently finished a script, Jeremy O.

Harris, and I recently,

he's a very

the most Tony nominated playwright.

Incredible.

Yeah.

And

anyway, we just finished something.

And I was like, holy shit, fiction.

You know,

and I was like, I, because you and I have spent so much time sort of, and I, I've spent so much time doing self-referential bits.

Uh,

but what did that feel like to write some story, a fictional story?

What did it feel?

Like when I sent it out to, you know, when I sent the email out, I was like sitting at home and I was texting Chloe.

And it was like four in the morning.

So she was up with Vanya, you know, in New York at 7 a.m.

for her.

Me, I was in the middle of the night.

My hands were cramped i was had like full carpal tunnel and i uh you know of course it's uh there's a few of you guys that really changed my life it's like you and nora efron and uh jenji cohen and uh

um uh cindy holland and like these kind of like powerhouse women that just sort of like appeared in you know the top of act two of my life and said listen bitch you're a writer uh you know you're a world builder let's go and i was like no no no

uh so nora and i were very close you know i did her, we would play poker together and stuff like that.

But my hands and I looked and I was texting Chloe and I was like, I think maybe I just sort of morphed into a type of Nora because I kicked out this, you know, fiction pilot that Jeremy and I wrote together.

But it was like, I was in Los Angeles alone with a dog in bed.

at like 4 a.m just kind of as a showrunner person kind of correcting typos and synthesizing, and you know, making sure it was ready to get PDF'd.

Yeah.

And I could feel my hands, and I was like, the spirit of Nora was sort of in me in that moment.

I was because remember how she was like, well, so I never met you.

I never met Nora.

You never met her?

No.

What was she like?

I would have loved Amy.

She was a real Amy Poehler.

What a nice thing to say, Tosh.

I mean,

Nora was

like revolutionary.

You know, she, I remember, I, so my first gig, Heartburn,

I'm just a, you know, an extra asleep on a lap.

Maybe Dan Gills and Meryl Shree are getting married or something.

That means Mike Nichols picked me from a pitch.

It was a big deal in my house.

No lines.

And

then about

maybe when I was like 30, so that was probably four.

When I was 30,

Delia Efren and

Nora wrote this show called Love Lost and What I Wore.

And I said to them them in Midtown in one of these offices, I was like, hi, Dillia.

Hi, Nora.

I'm not really sure what the play is.

I'm not a big theater guy, although I've seen Amy and Ashcat on stage.

But really, I'm having some relationship problems.

And I feel like you guys might be able to help if that's okay.

They did.

I broke up with that guy, and Nora said to me, Natasha, I know you're in Heartburn, but have you ever read it?

And she handed me a copy.

And I was like, holy Toledo, who is this human being?

Because beyond this sort of image of sort of clean, you know,

comprehensible images and jokes and a giant, like the heart and blood and guts on the page of the heartbreak.

I just reread Hartburn recently, a few years ago, and exactly that, Tash, like being reminded of how much Nora put herself in that story, like really let us in, really let us into her at a time when those kind of characters felt paper thin.

Like she was like a blood and guts character in that piece was so amazing to read it again it was just so so it totally like was like a tectonic plate shifting moment and also what like i'm somebody who's always had this weird chip on my shoulder that i need to shake it's no longer serving around like being a tough guy or being bad or cursing that's really me being you know i'm just nervous i'm just yeah you know an introvert extrovert kind of weirdo who's like making it up as i go

lifelong improviser with no training winging it you know what i mean?

And kind of like relying on the people that I'm like, you know, are like a drowning man sees as a life preserver.

Like, who the fuck is Amy Pohler?

Like, I think that's safe.

You know what I mean?

And so for me, like, you know, Nora was,

God, I just, she's a giant.

And she was safe.

She was safe for you?

It was also that it changed my worldview around,

so like, I'm a scholarship kid on the Upper East Side.

Like, so the family had some money, then they lost it.

Then, by the time it's me and my mom, like, alone, you know, she's divorced now on the Upper East Side.

And I'm

10.

I'm going to this private school on the Upper East Side, but we're in, like, the wrong side of the track.

Sort of, I'm not sure if you're familiar with the film called Slums of Beverly Hills.

I might be in it.

But in Manhattan,

it takes place in Los Angeles.

In Manhattan, you also have like on the Upper East Side, the good apartments are the ones on like Park Avenue and like within this space that's really rarefied air.

In the fringes of it, though, you have other people there.

So I had this beef with Nora because I imagined her as like real Upper East Side.

She retrained my mind to understand

that no kid.

She would be, she would say to me, like, just stay in the house and call the housekeeper, smoke outside.

She would remind me that her parents were screenwriters.

Oscar Levant, who's extraordinary, Google,

you know, he was the neighbor.

Like that, the history of

complex humanity is so embedded into the DNA and the fabric of like every single individual on this earth, you know, let alone every person that presents well on camera or something.

It really healed something, I think, to have her take me under, you know, Rogio Donov would say to me back then, like,

you're not,

you're not the

irregular sheets in the discount bin at bed bath and beyond.

You know what I mean?

Like, not to be married to that.

Tyne Daly would say to me on that production, don't be a part of the walking wounded, you know, be a foot soldier.

Like,

let go of the story that there's some sort of inner brokenness that you must heal, that you must be constantly apologizing for by being chaotic or taking up space or being confused.

You know, you're not running on time.

All this kind of stress and anxiety that manifests in these ways that people don't understand.

Like you, Nora, you know what I mean?

Like with these kind of like tethers for me of it's also okay to

be sane and successful and well.

Yes.

And boy, were we sane, successful, and well when we did Russian Doll.

Right?

I mean, ish, you know, and I would say that we were insane in all the right ways.

Like, I think that's a good way to say it.

I mean, we did a show called Old Soul, which was kind of like a straightforward sitcom sitcom based on, loosely based on the idea that kind of what you were talking about is that at the time you were feeling like you were surrounded by older people who were who you were learning something from, who were kind of like surrounding you and taking care of you, and you felt like an old soul.

And that was an idea that we made a show that didn't go, but what a cast in that show.

If we can just talk about

okay, if I can remember, it was Ellen Burston, Richard Benjamin, Fred Willard, Rita Moreno, Marla Gibbs, Marla Gibbs,

and Greta Lee.

Greta, the great Greta Lee.

Yeah.

Nikki Cat Crow with a little cameo.

Yes.

And Nick Thune.

Nick Thune.

And

it was

so,

and I remember that experience.

It was kind of like, you know, one of the many times when you're doing this job, you have a heartbreak of like,

is it going to go?

Is it going the way it's supposed to go?

Are we feeling the way we're supposed to feel?

But I remember

working with you on that was the beginning of of me realizing a couple things.

First, that you can do almost anything.

You are able to produce and write and direct.

You also are, you have this thing that the camera, the camera just loves you, Natasha.

Like it want, it, it, I guess when I talk about electricity that you have, it, the camera is like, mommy.

The camera's like, there's my mommy, there's my mommy.

Um, so watching you perform was incredible.

I was a, an act, a lesson in acting.

And then just that I wanted to do more.

I wanted to work with you more again.

And then we kind of cannibalized that idea a little bit, but just kept talking about the bigger ideas of what it's like to kind of feel like you live your life over and over again, or if you get the kind of reset, what would you do with it?

And what does that feel like?

And

yeah, tell people if what you remember about those beginning days of Russian Dahl.

To synthesize, I guess, somewhat,

it's interesting

that the way I remember

Old Soul into Russian Doll

is,

okay, we knew each other for, we met each other around this ASCAN time, right?

I sort of saw you.

You were like this tiny little giant with the funniest, sexiest, like hot little blonde number who was just a freak.

Like, so fucking funny, Amy Poehler.

Jesus Christ, you know, so quick and nimble and like a real, like an Olympian, like an acrobat, you know, because it was just the way you throw yourself around that stage and come up with new ideas all at once.

And then, of course, SNL, all those years backstage, but just kind of not that tight.

We saw each other at some premiere at MoMA.

We kind of had a laugh.

Next day, you call me.

I'm in bed watching NYPD Blue, falling in love with Dennis Franz.

No, the phone's never ringing.

And you say, as long as I've known you've always been the oldest girl in the world, should we make a show about it?

Sure.

Old soul.

And then the way I remember it is when that didn't go, we were crushed.

Yeah.

And we got into a car.

And I remember, I think I was driving.

The windows were rolled up.

I was chain smoking.

And you didn't like that.

And you said, I still don't.

Natasha, I know the show didn't go.

It's really hard.

But picture for picture, if you will, my body.

No, picture.

Picture for a moment.

Imagine there was no network.

There were no rules.

There was no anything.

What is the show that we would really want to make?

What's the story we would really want to tell if we left all that aside, assuming we could do anything anywhere?

And that's how we started getting to this idea of you could go to the same party over and over again.

You could take everybody home thinking that something outside of self would heal you, would change you, would fix you.

But no matter which iteration of this sort of exterminating angel benwel reference journey you would take, or the Doug Hofstetter version would be I'm a Strange Loop or whatever, parallel path, you would still find yourself at home with you and your unresolved stuff if you didn't really face it head on.

And the real goal of Russian doll

is you had always described it as it was the search for the littlest doll inside of you that is the truth of who you are.

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Then we do Russian Dahl big hit.

What a hit.

What a hit.

How fun.

What a hit.

What's the best?

Remember that Emmy's Day?

Oh my gosh, all those nominations after all that work?

So fun.

I mean, I got to tell you something.

I haven't been on a, I've never been on a show that was a hit in real time.

I've been in a show that was a slow, like, oh, oh, that's, people love that.

It was a slow climb.

And I've been on a lot of things that didn't pop.

And I've been in films that I felt like I added and contributed to, but didn't really feel like was truly something that felt like I was a major part of.

And to be on a show that is a hit is, I recommend.

Yo, strong recommend.

That's been great.

It's wild.

And the idea that That was the thing that people responded to was shocking.

Like, you know, yeah, American Pie was in the one movie in the world or something.

It didn't feel like it was that close to the bone.

It wasn't like I'm telling you about, you know, trauma and mommy issues and fucking, I don't know, being self-destructive and wanting to take yourself out in this life and the need to move from a nihilistic lens that's placed on you through an epigenetic footprint that is the roadmap of each human being that one must forgive themselves for that may lead to sort of nihilistic, self-obsessed behavior that's self-destructive, transitioning into connection with another human being who's probably a stranger through like a small act of kindness, you know, in a big city, and that that's the solution to your sort of metaphorical dying over and over again, insanity-defined, you know, making the same mistakes, thinking you're going to have a different outcome.

Shocking that that's what connected.

And it was funny.

Hard fun.

I mean, the that feeling too i just have to like contextualize

that was a time pre-covid

um when netflix was uh taking i think big chances and real chances on full season orders and artists and being like yeah i like your um

i like the package that you've got i like I like I trust you, Amy.

I trust you, Natasha.

I trust you, Leslie Hedland.

You're coming in with an idea here.

Like make it and go.

Other than that, I think it was algorithmically.

It was like Leslie Hedland was sleeping with other people.

There was something

also

like her movies combined with Marks and Reck, combined with, I guess, orange is the new black, when you put it through that at the time sauce, yielded, this is the budget for this many episodes.

It's going to be a low-budget thing, whatever you want to make.

And it just so happened that what we wanted to make was, you know, quantum physics comedy.

And

so we did.

Now, you, you,

when you, you just brought up quantum physics.

You're probably the only person I know who reads quantum physics, but only actor I know anyway, who reads quantum physics quite regularly.

I'm assuming that can't be true, but I do

I am a, yeah, I do find it very relaxing.

It's sort of how I quiet the mind.

I love

things I don't understand.

And over time,

I've even begun to understand, you know, some,

you know, like small concepts or something.

What do you think?

Double slit experiment is very much the kind of concept behind why Charlie and Nadia, you know, die at the same time all the time.

Like these are sort of.

For the one or two people listening who don't know what the double slit experiment is, what is it?

Yeah, I think it's just it's essentially the concept about what is the fabric of the universe, right?

Like, are we here?

You've done acid.

You're Amy Fowler.

Yeah.

You're the listeners at home.

You've all done LSD or micro-dosing.

I know what young people are into today with their mushrooms and chocolates and candy bars and gummies and whatnot.

But that little feeling that you have.

Are we here?

Yeah.

Or even like, what is, you know, a deep sleep REM state?

What's going on, right?

Like,

what the hell is going on?

Or when you close your eyes real tight and you open them and there's all little deep particles and stuff and it's a little bit trippy or weird or a real pedantic version of that is like deja vu just that is what is

right so a lot of people are basically after the same question which is

what is this fabric of the universe or this sort of unseen thing that we don't can't comprehend like are we in multiple timelines is it you know um AI so advanced now that it's scraped all of our data against our will that it's actually running tests and simulations on that to actually figure out in this sort of paperclip sort of experiment type of thing of, you know, endless iterations to discover which world we should be in for a positive outcome.

Like, is any of it real?

The bottom line is in a day-to-day basis, it just doesn't fucking matter if any of this stuff exists or not, because it's basically you still got to pay your bills, you still have responsibilities, you got to show up, you got to fucking take a shower, you know, and you got to like be a person.

So you can't get so lost in space, but emotionally, for the purposes of Russian doll, it was really about, you know, this dual timeline kind of thing, right?

That Nadia and Alan were fractured in, or in season two, it's kind of about this sort of quantum leaping, right?

And it's Carlo Ravelli poses the question, why can I remember my past, but I can't remember my future?

So, you know, we used it in a storytelling device as, would I be able to forgive the experience that was grandfathered into me traumatically if I had a day to walk walk in their shoes and understand that you know my parent came by it honestly, it wasn't on purpose that damage done.

But all these ideas about sort of like healing and science and sort of connection and the idea that two different individuals could exist in two different timelines, but be having a similar experience because they're tethered by something unknown that's connecting them and binding them is still also part of this idea of what we're talking about of like creating family and all this kind of stuff.

Of even when you and I are not together because we're busy, I know you exist and it feels like a, you know, thank God, you know,

something like that.

You know, listening to you is like watching a symphony.

Like the way you talk is like a bunch of instruments playing together.

You have the highest aptitude for talking of almost anyone I've ever met.

You're very good at talking.

Dang, say me.

It's not my real tongue.

You got a tongue transplant?

Do you,

would you ever own a robot in your house?

And if you did, what would you hope it did for you?

Let me think.

So

it depends.

I guess like,

you know, the first thing that comes to mind, actually, the only thing I've been thinking about since you asked

is root beer, my dog.

So I'm like, how is it helping root beer?

Is it soft?

Does root beer love it?

Root beer is now 15, which is weird.

Wow.

I'm somebody that always thinks I'm going to be like, you know, dying any second.

And

even root beer is 15.

And for people who don't know, Root Beer is what kind of dog?

A multi-poo.

Yeah.

A Rottweiler.

Yeah.

Rottweiler at heart.

I'm going to tell people.

Yeah.

And Root Beer

is Root Beer's 15.

Wow.

It's wild.

Yeah.

Because I'm like, she's even old for people years, let alone dog years.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you have a sense of when you you like a lot of your work deals with death?

You're very open about thinking about it.

You meditate it, meditate on it a lot more than people I know.

Do you have a sense of when you'll die?

Later today.

Oh, good.

Hold on, let's get, let's, let's finish up.

I can't tell if it's going to be, you know, I mean, like, that's what's so weird about the existential threat of AI.

A lot of this stuff really is just from,

you know, all the Russian doll deep dive research that.

I was doing along the way.

And, you know, I'd be sending you articles in all hours of the night.

Yeah.

You got to see this one.

You know, is it a simulation, Amy?

I mean, and I'm always like i think so

i think so and i'm like there's a joke in here right you're a professional where's the joke and i'm like yeah i mean it it to your point like it that the it's like you have to like get into the heaviness of it and then life is a dream and nothing matters you have to constantly flip back and forth between those two things yeah to get through the day i think so uh so what do you do what do you do to get through the day that isn't like where you're using a ton of brain like so i've been asking people like what is the thing right now in these times with everything is quite heavy what do you do to check out to zone out to like what do you watch or listen to what do you what do you do so you know i have a swimming pool and i'm a swimmer you've seen the swim with burt lancaster i uh i swim uh and also like

you know i i do some kind of like meditate like when i wake up i kind of Do you meditate?

Yeah, a little bit.

You know, like I've done the TM course,

but I'll just sort of sit there and I'll kind of like zone out, look at the trees, watch root beer run around, you know what I mean?

And then do some laps.

And then if it's a more sporty day, you know, there might be some, you know, reggae, you know, Brian Eno involved, depending like, you know, and catching a vibe that way.

When you're swimming, can I ask you more questions about swimming?

When you're swimming, what's going through your head?

I think a lot lately about,

I'm just a big science person, I guess.

So I think a lot about how weird it is that we're animals.

So I think a lot about how weird it is that, like, I'm like, this is so amphibian.

I like, those are my thoughts.

But I'm like, what's going on right here?

What is this move?

And they call it a breaststroke.

And then I'll go over here and I'm thinking about Busby Berkeley or, you know, how back in the 90s, I used to stay at the Chateau Marmont and Anne Mira of Mira and Stiller, you know, she'd be there and she and I would do jokes where we would swim and be like, isn't LA funny?

Look at us swimming, like two Busby Berkeley number, you know, know, girls.

And we would try to try to do synchronized swimming, but it was me and Anne Mira, we didn't succeed.

Yeah, that's not captured anywhere.

Like, and so I'll think about that while I'm

it's weird they caught a breaststroke.

And so, what if some people do what do you do to do storytelling?

So, but your mind is still going there, your mind, even when you're swimming, your mind is going.

What,

when does your mind?

I would say that it's uh

uh oh, probably

you know, sport fucking.

Uh, so sex.

Uh, so I would say why I'm such a, I'm always, you know, saying, right?

Like, hey, guys, like, because I think, you know, sex is a very,

people like to really, you know, consider it and give all its meaning to it.

I'm a little bit more German than all that.

It turns out not German at all.

But I think it's like there's a, there's a physical, we are animals.

It's important

sort of like medicinally to quiet the mind through a third activity that reminds us, you know, sports essentially is what I mean.

You know, athletics.

The double slit theory.

The double slot theory.

And so, you know, I would just say that swimming and, you know, sexing,

sexing.

And

so body stuff.

Like, body stuff is what gets you, what pulls you in.

I relate.

Like the idea of like feeling grounded in your own body.

Yeah.

Wendy, you, but do you have it in other ways?

Yeah.

I, I, I, I relate to this feeling like sometimes when I'm living in my head, like I need a like pressure, like physical pressure, whether it's like work, swimming or like physical touch, something that like reminds me to get back into my body.

Yeah, like, and it's also like, oh, the big one, obviously.

Like the reason that I, you know, I'm so in love with you and Fred or Maya, whatever, has really always been about

laughing

that hard.

Yeah.

Is an outer body.

I'm telling you, you're talking to somebody who's done every drug in the history of the world, including dust at the film forum.

I just got New York

side of the seat, dust.

And it's shocking

that literally, like hard laughing, where you will forget where you are and go to a third space.

Like I'm saying, where you're just like, is this even fucking the fabric of reality?

I don't even remember.

I can't remember what I was pissed off about.

Yes, yes, yes.

I hear you.

It is major.

It's major.

It's major medicine.

Major.

Yeah.

Sometimes I'm like, I'll laugh hard and I'll be, oh my gosh, I thought I was depressed.

I just haven't been doubled over laughing in like, you know, a week.

What happened?

When's the last time you've laughed really hard?

What have you laughed at hard lately?

Wow.

What are you laughing at right now?

What's making you laugh?

I had this

hang recently.

Sean Lennon's a

musician and an old friend of mine.

And he said, come meet this polymath.

And

I went home and

he was a little gentleman.

And he was there.

And then we kind of dissected the polymaths', the quote-unquote polymaths' theories about the universe.

And we sort of were able to break them down to like a moment in time where he developed a resentment against a science program.

and that that's what his sort of theory of everything was actually based on.

We were doubled over laughing so hard.

You observed something about someone in real time that you were like, yeah, and we were just laughing so hard because the idea that it was sort of couched and you know, out here, we meet a lot of people that are, you, I love your, when you say, enough of the geniuses, too many geniuses.

Oh, I mean, I don't know.

Talk about that, please.

The word genius is thrown around a lot.

Yeah.

And it is, it's oppressive.

the word genius is oppressive i mean and it's kind of and also it's used primarily for men you know um i i would say like maybe double up on calling women geniuses and maybe dial it back a little bit but i think you also say that like enough with the geniuses sometimes people just need to get to work because geniuses have like absolutely self-kind of like you know obsessed concepts or whatever and you know like well concept yeah concepts don't pay you know concepts don't pay the bills they don't get penned to paper no you gotta kick out a draft babe that's right and i mean you like you you can't you can sit in your think tank forever, but you know, like chop, chop, you got to make something and you got to fail.

Yes.

You got to, you got to get out there and try.

Okay.

Yes.

I got one more question for you.

Okay, doctor.

Love you so much.

But I got one more question.

We should talk about poker films.

What a, what a, what a gift that you're doing, Nish, because it means that we get to hang out.

I mean,

really, that's

my favorite thing today is I get to see you.

Yeah.

I mean, like, that's what's so funny about growing up and, you know, being these show people.

I think that over time we learn unless you're making something with your friends, you really don't get to see them.

No, that's why I work is so that I can see my friends.

Also, I get a real boner in a non-weird way.

I know you're a taken, you're spoken for, ma'am.

But, you know, I get the platonic boner when I see.

you on set with like your truck and what are these called uh your your buds or some shit call them cans oh cans uh there's a real term for them and you know directing producing.

Like, I love seeing, you know, and I love direct, I love being at the

powers and watching my friends do it.

I'm like, oh, this is who you are, Janixon Bravo.

You know, when you directed Poker Face, yeah, tell me about that experience because it's so great.

You're such, you're incredible in it.

And you, what was your experience directing on that show?

And in general, what's your experience?

How much do you like it?

Yeah, I mean, I

love directing.

I know you do too.

Yeah.

What do you love about it?

It just feels like

I'm in my right place.

Like my feet are where they're supposed to be.

And if you're asking me about like what quiets my mind, it is, I don't know if it's the same for you, but it is like, that's when I hear the click.

So much is happening that is so in the present moment.

Yeah.

That finally I'm like in my body and hear the click.

And they also, when you're an actor, they're kind of like, do you need to pee-pee?

And

when

you're a direct, and you're always just like,

I'm in my 40s.

Like, I think if I had to pee, I would, oh, now that you mentioned it, I'm in my 40s.

I totally got a pee.

Sure.

Thanks for reminding me.

But when you're a director, nobody says you have to pee pee.

And when you go pee-pee, they don't say, are you going to come back?

They know you're coming back.

You're making the movie.

And when you're at the monitor, you know, when you're an actor, you're kind of sitting there and you're like, why is everyone so stressed?

I'm a codependent.

I can feel it.

I'm like an empathy guy.

I can read a room.

But when you're behind the monitor, you're like, I know why we're stressed.

It's because we're looking at the one-liner for tomorrow with the first AD and so-and-so have missed their connecting flight, you know, out of Austin.

So it's not about.

Is it as simple as control?

Because what you're talking about is

like.

feeling like you got to hand over your control to other people or be able to be in control of like how you shape your day, your project, your own experience, the time you get to go to the bathroom.

I think that that's this weird ancillary bonus.

I think that for me, what it's really about is like being this like 360, like filmmaking machine that is actually getting involved with like lenses and camera positions and angles and what's in the frame and what's not in the frame, and what is the actor doing, and how we need to on the fly change that line of dialogue to reflect that, or because we're running out of light.

So, therefore, we're going to reposition this whole thing.

And it's like, I just feel so in control.

No, like, I feel like 360 activated at like what I was like made to do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

As a kind of, yes, it is in control as like a conductor, but it's a conductor of like a frame.

And it's also that like, you know, I think what I, I, I hate being, I don't like being famous.

I think it's whack.

Like I, I'm just, I've been a character actor for a New York character actor for like, you know, 40 years and then like famous for six.

It's super fucking weird.

Like people treat you all like, you're a some, I'm like, I'm a, I'm a person.

I'm just swinging it too.

But when you're a director, you're with what's amazing about poker face especially is

like I am

with the crew.

Like, in other words, like, you know, me and Rob Harlow, the Dolly Grip, we're making the show together.

Like, I fucking love that dude because the cast is all rotating.

So

the cast is rotating, directors are rotating, writers are rotating.

So it just feels like I'm one with the camera as I should be.

and really discovered that directing in Russian Hall,

a real peace comes over my body where I'm like inside of the material as an artist.

Instead of sort of sitting outside of it, waiting for somebody to tell me, you know, this child, you did a good job or not.

It's kind of like,

it's very alive.

Like I start walking like Charlie Chaplin because it's so many things are happening at once and it's very funny.

How do you feel when you do it?

That's exactly, you said it beautifully, which is the idea of like the idea of being in community in creativity.

Creativity in community is what directing feels like.

It feels like you're

people are looking to you to have answers, but the answers lie within all the people making the piece.

That's it.

And it's really fun.

Like

the thing is, acting is so lonely.

Like, yes.

Clea and I used to do this funny thing.

She was dating a drummer.

She's living in Topanga.

She had like six

wiener dogs.

But, you know,

her girlfriend at the time would be in there drumming, practicing for the band.

And Clea and I would sit out there with those wiener dogs in Topanga.

We'd be like, so fuck, we're actors.

How come we don't get to do band practice?

Should we jam?

Should we act?

That's what's so weird about acting and writing, you know, at least in draft, not in the room.

They're a very lonely sport.

That's right.

But directing is a team sport.

I cannot wait for Poker Face.

I cannot wait for that new season.

I love watching you act.

I love watching.

I love listening to your brain.

I love seeing you in person.

I love being around you, Tosh.

I love being,

I miss you too, bud.

And I love being part of

the

weather system that is you.

I love being able to get close to you any chance I can.

I'm always so ashamed as if it's a series of weather reports

and like the big event in life is to just be like, eh, you know, no waves at all.

No waves.

And also, i want you to know i kept this necklace safe the entire time because i was nervous about it being going missing but here it is for you that's so crazy because you're a known kleptomanebrack ma'am i didn't replace it with like fake diamonds while we were talking or anything yeah i would never do that that's a weird move um i love you tashi i love you amy thanks for doing this thanks for coming thanks for having me

Oh man, Natasha, thank you for coming.

And

you're just the best.

And, you know, Natasha talked about so many things, but she mentioned something that I wanted to just remind listeners about as we plunge into our polar plunge at the end of the show.

And that is the book Heartburn by Nora Efron.

It's an incredible deep dive, character study into the breakup of a marriage.

And it also was made into a film with Meryl Streep and Jack Nicholson.

I would advise reading the book and then watching the movie, but you can do it either way.

But both are just these beautiful pieces of art and really honest storytelling and

heartburn.

So good.

Still so good.

Nora, so good.

Thank you for everything that you gave us.

All right.

Well, thanks so much for listening to Good Hang.

And

we'll see you soon.

Bye.

You've been listening to Good Hang.

The executive producers for this show are Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss-Berman, and me, Amy Poehler.

The show is produced by The Ringer and Paperkite.

For The Ringer, production by Jack Wilson, Kat Spillane, Kaya McMullen, and Aalaya Zanaris.

For Paperkite, production by Sam Green, Joel Lovell, and Jenna Weiss Burman.

Original music by Amy Miles.