Episode 465: Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman: Why Everyone's Playing Victim (And How to Stop)

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Okay, so today we have somebody that I've been trying to get on for a long time.

I don't know if

you know that or not.

I didn't know that.

I didn't know that.

Okay, it's Scott Barry Kaufman.

He's a cognitive psychologist.

His work is just really good.

I don't even know how well in so many ways.

He talks about, I said that when you walked in about different types of intelligence,

self-actualization.

And the way you break things down, I think is very, very, like,

very good to the point where

you take something complicated and you can break it down in a simplistic way.

I try.

I try.

I'm also really nerdy, though.

So it's

okay.

But I definitely try to do exactly what you just said.

So thank you.

It's working.

Scott's new book is called Rise Above, Overcome a Victim Mindset, Empower Yourself, and Realize Your Full Potential.

And like I said, like if you have not read any of his books, this one also did not disappoint.

So again,

thank you for being here today.

Yay.

It's a real honor.

It's a real honor.

I had no idea you've wanted me on for so long.

I really did because there's, you know, the thing is, social media is a funny thing and a funny place, right?

And, you know, what when you, for what I do, especially, you meet a lot of people, you read a lot of things, and it's very, there's a lot of noise.

So they're only like, for me anyway, there's a few people that really stand out and you've been one of them.

And I, and I really like, I'm not just saying this because we're on a podcast and I'm, and you're a guest in my show, but I really do.

It resonates, your stuff resonates with me.

And I think it's, I think it's great.

So cool.

Yeah.

I want to start with something that you've talked about a lot, which is self-actualization.

And I just want to start off and open the podcast with how does somebody self-actualize?

Wow, what a big question.

I know.

That's why I was like, that's why I said it's a big question to start with.

And normally I kind of like ease into it.

Let me say this, because I teach a course at Columbia University called the science of living well.

And to me, living well is self-actualizing.

So I kind of view them as very similar things and i will say that there is no protocol to self-actualization so i'm sorry for those

i just pissed off a bunch of bros no no no

you can't optimize you can't optimize self-actualization you know and i just wanted to start off there because i really believe in order to self-actualize you and only you can walk that path Only you can understand and figure out what is the bridge that you want to take.

What bridge do you want to even create, you know?

And that really takes a lot of listening to the deepest recesses of your soul it takes a lot of really trusting yourself and listening to what i call self-actualizing compass that i think each one of us has but there is no podcast guru that is going to tell you how to self-actualize so i really want to answer that question in that way But we can help people, you know, and move in their own direction that's best for them, you know, as a self-actualization coach.

I'm a self-actualization coach.

I'm really, I want to help people move in the direction that is best suited suited for them and discover what are what are the direction, what is the direction best suited for them that we can help with.

So this is why I wanted to start off with that question, because you, in my opinion, you kind of self-actualize.

I feel, you know, it's true.

And I kind of feel I did the same thing.

You know, you talk a lot, even about in your new book, Rise Above, you talk about how, you know, sometimes we can get pigeonholed into doing something.

And then it gets, and I don't know which, which part of the book you talk about this, but then it's really taking taking the onus on ourselves to break free from that and then do more and

action.

Yeah.

And can you just talk a little bit about that whole thing and how you self-actualize?

And that's why I think you're such a good example of what happened with you and how you were in special, in a special ed program.

Yeah, when I was really young, I really didn't have much people, many people believe in me.

And I was in special ed for an auditory disability that I had.

And there was a teacher that took me aside in ninth grade and she said, What are you still doing here?

And she saw a higher potential in me that I didn't see in myself, but it really like set off this

whole drive to kind of show people and myself what I was capable of.

And I think a lot of self-actualization is trusting that inner recesses of your soul.

I really think there's something there.

You know, there's something to not being a victim of your, not having a victim mindset, but turning within and really focusing your limited energy you have on this time on this planet really actualizing what's within you it breaks my heart to see how many people waste so much of this precious life that we've all been given through petty hust resentment hostility jealousy trying to take others down it breaks my heart because what i see in those people is a real squandering of their potential does that make sense it makes a lot of sense and that's what you talk about it's like how but so would it can you just maybe define what is a victim mindset so people listening maybe they'll be like aha maybe that is what i'm doing absolutely it's possible to have been victimized and not have a victim mindset i would make that very clear it's it's possible you know we we go through horrible things in our lives you know and and when you have a victim mindset you are blaming all of your problems your current problems on some external force whether it's in an individual or it's a group of people.

And you don't have productive ways of moving forward with your life with purpose and intention because you spend so much of your time planning revenge and planning sort of some way to get back at the world that has wronged you.

And so that's a victim mindset.

And I really do contrast that from what I call an empowerment mindset.

And an empowerment mindset is not ignoring the terrible things that have happened to us.

It's a very, have you ever done improv?

I haven't, but I mean,

I haven't, but I know what you're going to say.

Yeah, I know.

Yes, and

yes,

you've been through some terrible things in your life.

And

I believe in your greater potential for growth and development and resilience.

We all have a lot more resilience within us than we realize.

Often, unfortunately, it takes being really tested, you know, before we realize that.

But let's not wait until we're tested.

Well, I find us also, some people people are, they don't have the self-awareness to even know that they are in this victim mindset loop, right?

Yeah, and it's you know, people from the outside looking at that person can say, Look at that, you know, that's what they're doing.

How do you overcome a victim mindset?

And I guess it's a two-parter.

How do you even have self-awareness enough to even know that you're in this victim mindset?

Oh,

self-awareness takes a lot of meditation, takes a lot of patience and discussions and feedback.

You're not going to get that feedback unless you put yourself out there on the line to fail and put yourself out there to face your fears.

I'm a big believer in behavioral activation, that approach to self-awareness, you know, where the best way to become self-aware is to have it reflected back to you,

even in a painful way, you know.

For instance, I've recently taken up magic,

you know, mental.

I became a professional mentalist in the last year.

You did?

Yeah, I read people's minds.

And so I go out, you know, to restaurants and whatever, sometimes just for fun, I'll go to bars and read people's minds and vote, hey, can I read your mind?

You know, and then we do that.

And sometimes I get.

horribly rejected.

You know, some people are just not interested.

They don't know what's going on.

They're not into it.

And it's totally fine, you know, and being able to handle rejection, but still, you know, get feedback and, you know, because I want to be good right yeah and so you know well a couple things first of all I want you to kind of read my mind which I'm going to ask you about in two seconds but yeah I think I'm I'm a big believer in that right like I think that we learn from our failures right and the only way to get comfortable with failure is to fail yeah right we're not gonna like get comfortable or desensitize with it if we don't ever do it you know that's why I believe like sometimes like being mediocre is actually the best thing that could have happened because you know a there's not like you'll always fall and you'll, they'll never ever,

you know, like you don't have that same kind of pressure on you.

So, but that's how you build resilience, in my opinion, right?

Absolutely.

Yeah, it sounds like you, you got the

habits.

I got the habits.

But wait, so could you really read my mind right now?

Oh, well, maybe later I'll do.

But how do you even go to school for that?

I don't want to, I want to stay in this frame before.

No, no, for sure.

But I was just wondering, like, is it something that you can actually learn?

I thought it's something that people either have innately or they don't.

You go to school for that?

Yeah, you can train.

Yeah, I have mentors that have taken me under their wing.

I love that.

That's great.

You also say something that's very, I saw in the book that I found very interesting was like over medicalizing natural human behaviors and over labeling.

It's kind of a pet peeve of mine.

Yeah.

Yeah.

TikTok therapy is a thing.

You know, it's a huge thing.

Like words like, you know, what's happening is we're like everyone's in a trauma mode.

Everything is like, there's hashtags and trends.

And then people just kind of like narcissism is a big label you know people have you know they find something that kind of um tracks and then they glom onto it and that becomes your thing right trauma yeah well yes yes this is true people take med you know psychology language um diagnoses even narcissism now everyone's ex-boyfriend is a narcissist i don't know how everyone's ex-boyfriend could be a narcissist

right certainly some of them but you know they're they're we call people you know things people we don't like.

We call them psychopaths, narcissists.

We, everything that is uncomfortable to us, we now say it's because of our trauma, you know, you know, things like trauma, it exists, uh, but it's not ever, it's not everything.

Um, it's also humans are so complex, it's hard to reduce everything to that one thing that happened to us when we were five.

You know, there are so many reasons and things that have formed who we are today.

Well, narcissism is a big one, right?

That's a very, it's a very popular one.

There's a lot, and you talk about narcissism a lot in this book.

There's like, you talk about like vulnerable narcissism and there's like, what is vulnerable narcissism?

Vulnerable narcissism is feeling justified to special privileges because you've suffered in the past.

Not necessarily that you're superior to others.

That's grandiose narcissism, but because you've suffered in the past.

What percentage of people actually have narcissistic qualities?

Like, is it a big percentage?

Because we're talking about how everybody now is a narcissist and this narcissism.

Is there like, is it's a continuum.

It's a continuum, right?

Like, we can be narcissistic and be a nice person, right?

Like, it not just one thing doesn't always automatically mean another thing.

That's right.

It's just like any personality variation.

You asked me, what percentage of the population are introverts?

Well, we all go in and out of this.

I actually like to think of it more as a mindset.

Like, victim, the victim mindset is a mindset.

It's a dynamic mindset that all of us can fall prey to.

You know, narcissism is a mindset as well.

Some people do habitually score high in vulnerable narcissism.

That's true, but there is no demarcation line between the vulnerable narcissist and the non-vulnerable narcissist because we're all human.

Right, right.

But there's what, but is there one kind that's more like the good, the good kind?

Is there a good type versus like a if I had to choose one type of narcissism, I would rather be a grandiose narcissist than a vulnerable narcissist.

That is true.

Really?

Why?

Grandiose narcissism is associated with leadership skills.

It's associated with greater well-being.

Even if you don't increase the well-being of others, you're still personally.

That's like a lot of entrepreneurs are narcissists.

Oh, 100%.

Right?

Yeah, yeah.

And we actually have a study we just published showing we may need to rethink grandiose narcissism because we found a profile of people who score high in grandiose narcissism, but low in vulnerable narcissism.

And those individuals seem, there seems to be no downside to it.

Really?

Yeah, we probably don't want to believe that because we like to believe that, you know, they come, they get their comeuppance because they're so full of themselves.

But there really seems to be a lot of benefits of having such self-belief in yourself.

Well, I think you have to be a little bit narcissistic to even to

go after big dreams, right?

And to take risks.

And a lot of it.

Yeah, I think so.

And a lot of it is dependent on

your field, right?

So if you're

an NBA basketball player and you show some grandiose narcissism, your fans love you.

It's true.

But if you're an accountant, probably not so much, right?

Yeah, you don't want a puffed up

or

someone who's flying airplane, who's overconfident.

We can deal with some overconfidence here and there with an NBA player, but also a brain surgeon.

I want my brain surgeon to have that too.

Sure.

So I think it's contextual too.

It is contextual.

What about you're saying about the vulnerable narcissist?

Why would you not want to be a vulnerable narcissist?

Oh, well, it's associated with depression.

It's associated with constant self-esteem, uncertainty.

People who score very high in vulnerable narcissism are constantly unsure of who they are and they need constant, not necessarily praise, but they need constant acceptance.

If they're rejected or even the slightest hint of rejection, they fall into pieces.

So let me ask, why did you decide to write this book now?

Like, why rise above now?

You wrote Trent Sen.

Was there something like, did you, were you seeing a lot of people in like the

zeitgeist with victim mindsets with what was happening?

Like, what was the kind of like the reason why you were kind of swaying towards that?

I did feel a need.

It's exciting to see that, by the way.

Yeah, is it?

Yeah.

You put your heart and soul into something for so long.

Yeah.

You see it coming

to fruition.

I did think that it

was really

in the culture, a victimhood culture that we're living in in right now um gene twengy who wrote the book generations talks about you know they're the two generations ago we had um kids i forget what that was generation what but uh if we if we not not this generation not the last generation but the generation before that gen x

in the eight they grew up in the 80s and 90s

that's me

no millennials is yeah before that generation x generation x i think it's there's like confusion about whether or not tell me a check no that's okay okay whatever you are and me and me, I think we're the same age.

Okay, well, I don't know.

How old are you?

You tell me first.

I know, you tell me, for you don't want to say that to me.

You're going to be kicked off the show.

If you say you're 64, we're in big trouble.

I'm 45.

Okay, good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So then basically, I think we're called, we're

Gen X.

Okay.

Gen Xers are all about, and then, as well as the one that came before them, we're really about the self-esteem movement, you know?

You know, you think about Saturday Night Live, like, I'm good enough, I'm strong enough, god dominate, people like me.

Exactly.

That was Stuart Smiley from Saturday Night Live.

Great skit.

But then the generation after that, that morphed too much into grandiose narcissism.

So self-esteem movement really turned into, you know, we're the best.

Yeah.

But for some reason, that has morphed into a generation of vulnerable narcissists.

All these kids, they feel they're entitled to special privileges because of whatever

special thing that makes their suffering unique.

That's yes, you're preaching to the choir.

No, you're preaching to the converted because I agree with you 100%.

What do you think the rise of what happens?

Well, Jonathan Haidt would say coddling.

Coddling.

We're coddling these kids, Greg Wilkianoff and John.

I would say the same thing.

I just did a TED talk on how to basically, it's called How to Raise Mentally

Mentally Strong Kids

in a Fragile World because I'm a big believer that that's what's happening.

Yeah.

And the gentle parenting era is very detrimental to the kids.

I think the kids, even where we live, right, the entitlement with the anxiety, with the depression, with the social anxiety, there's so much of it.

Part of it is, I think, that there's no time to play, right?

It's a big part of it.

I'm a big believer in play, yeah.

But also, part of it is what happened to the narratives that were rewarded.

Like

in our childhood,

wasn't it?

Do you remember when it was rewarded to overcome things like in in college essays the story wasn't how vulnerable we are but the story was what we've done to overcome it now college admissions rewards just the vulnerability you know well that's the thing well i think brene brown did this whole volume as you know the volume yeah but

and that became the new kind of the the new kind of like rhetoric right like the more vulnerable you are the more you talk about your problems the more you expose who you are that's what kind of has become the thing.

Our generation, to your point, was more like, more like coping skills, like, you know, doing things for ourselves, like resilience,

you know, kind of like

independence.

And like sucking it up type of thing, right?

But like to you, you were saying earlier about self-esteem, you're right.

Like back then was much more about self-esteem.

Yes.

So where is the, where is the line between being overly confident and narcissistic, let's say, and self-esteem?

What is the difference?

There is actually a difference between self-esteem and narcissism.

Those are two separate constructs, as we say in psychology.

They actually have two different developmental trajectories.

So when kids are younger,

their narcissism tends to peak in adolescence and then start to decline.

Whereas self-esteem is very low in adolescence and starts to improve as people get older.

Self-esteem is really just feeling a sense that you're worth it.

You know, in a lot of ways, narcissism, which is I'm great, I'm the best, is a compensation for low self-esteem sometimes, especially when it comes to vulnerable narcissism.

So, because you were saying, like, in a book, how what's the parenting, like the way people parent are making the kids have either a higher self-esteem or a lower self-esteem?

Can you talk about that?

Yeah, absolutely.

So parental warmth and acceptance tends to lead to a secure self-esteem.

And a secure self-esteem is a great thing, by the way.

It is.

I agree.

It's something we want in our children.

And healthy self-esteem is one where just the child feels like they're enough.

You know, they are worth, they're a worthy human being.

And then take, accept that, and then move on.

You know, the ones who get really preoccupied with their self-esteem, that's a different issue.

That's like not healthy.

You know, we want you to have a secure self-esteem and then focus on other things.

Right.

We don't want you to be preoccupied with your self-esteem every day.

But what is the parent?

How is the parent doing or the adult doing with the child to make them have a lower self-esteem?

Okay, what's the opposite of warmth and acceptance?

What's the opposite of warmth?

Well, in terms of narcissism, there is research showing that overpraise

for things that the child has not really really actually earned does relate to grandiose narcissism.

Having feeling like your child always has to, you know, pressurize them to always win the trophy, but always telling everyone my child's the best.

You know, yeah, that can lead over, it's called over-evaluation in psychology.

That's the technical term.

Oh, really?

Is that what it's saying?

Oh, yes, that's it.

Because I see a lot of that around here.

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You also talk, even in this, you talk about this in the book, that how about where does attachment style come into this, right?

Because if you're an anxious person, anxious attachment, all these things, that does that play into someone's self-esteem as well?

And does it, first of all, does it play into someone's self-esteem?

Yes.

Attachment is a whole different area, beast, but the causal chain is not clear.

A lot of people who have a genetic proclivity towards

a certain personality trait,

let's say there's a tendency towards low self-esteem, just as a person, as just a baseline, that could lead to the development of anxious attachment style

for sure.

We also know people with anxious attachment style tend to have low self-esteem.

The causality is probably bi-directional.

They feed off each other, but they're definitely related.

Because what I thought was interesting was that how anxious attachment is.

I didn't realize until I read your book that some of it is genetic.

Everything is somewhat genetic.

Not just because I thought, like, so I've been, I was taught that attachment style is very much like a nurturing thing, like environmental, like how you were raised, what were you doing.

But you were talking about in your book.

There's a genetic component to attachment style.

There really is.

You can take two identical twins who have the same nurturing or not nurturing parent.

Not identical twins, I'll say fraternal twins who share 50% of the same genes, you know, and you, and you'll find a difference between if they have the identical same genes, you know, and how they react.

You know, there is a difference between

genes influence what colors our world.

It's all part of a, to me, it's all part of a broader personality temperament.

You know, if you, some people have a temperament, maybe a, not such a rose-colored glasses temperament,

you know, whatever the opposite is.

They're naturally more pessimistic.

That's the word I was taking.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I know, you bet, yeah.

And that colors things.

Or anxiety, you know, people with a lot of anxiety, right off the bat, you see some of these kids coming out of the womb crying, you know, at a more intense rate than other kids.

And that already is setting them up for anxious attachment.

Some people actually have

avoidant attachment.

So maybe they're, that's not so much anxiety, it's just disagreeableness.

They might feel like they need people.

That's true.

I mean, I know a lot of people like that, too.

I'm sure you do as well.

I'm a little like that, to be honest.

Really?

I think I have some avoidant attachment style.

Really?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm like, okay with that.

Yeah, there's actually research showing two different types of avoidant attachment.

There's one type that is correlated with high well-being, and there's another type that is more correlated with psychopathology.

I think I'm the one with high well-being.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's like chosen, you choose to have avoidant attachment.

Yeah.

So that's interesting because I know I think that's like, because in your, again, when I was like saying earlier, like you're

like you you in general just really fascinate me because like you've become like you have a lot of background in this like you went to yale you went to carnegame like you like is there is that why you kind of went like you delve deep into the psychology because like i said you were you were like kind of you were kind of somebody who did all these things and you use yourself as a as a peach

right yeah definitely earlier in my career absolutely i wanted to kind of prove people uh wrong you know all the hate naysayers saying that i was stupid and i couldn't even, they said I couldn't graduate, I shouldn't be able to graduate high school, you know, when I was in high school.

And so I was like, okay, well, screw you.

I'm going to not only graduate high school, but I'm going to go to Yale someday.

You know what I mean?

Like, so yeah, but that was early on.

But that's not, and I have a whole chapter in the book about the underdog motivation and how that can fuel you.

I want to talk about that.

That's why I was bringing it up.

Cool.

Because I think that the chip on the shoulder or the underdog motivation is a lot of times fire that the fuel and the fire to kind of motivate people who otherwise wouldn't have you know self-actualized yes so do you want to talk about this under i thought it yeah it's a it's a big you know the most common sort of manifest the most obvious is like michael jordan you know who like creates enemies so yeah you know so he can like so people so he has a reason to find motivation yeah yeah like but um I think any of us can kind of tap into that motivation if we are feeling rejected.

But I don't think it's the most sustainable and healthiest in the long run.

Okay.

Like, I don't, I'm glad I don't, I'm glad my whole life is not revolving around

an underdog motivation anymore.

I'm also glad I'm not an underdog anymore.

Right.

Both of those things I'm glad about.

Does that change, though?

So, can someone, does that happen often?

Like, if someone starts off as having that underdog mentality, and then as they achieve success,

does that mentality wane?

Well, I don't know.

Look at, again, Michael Jordan, I don't do that.

But he's a one of a kind.

A one of a kind, yeah, yeah.

It does, it does tend to be.

Because

how do we, I think this is the big, long question.

You talk about, you, it's on the cover of your book, but like, how can we discover in ourselves our greatest potential?

Whew, you're asking the heavy-hitting question to me.

Well, listen, you didn't come here to just, you know, talk about the weather, did you?

No, I didn't.

No.

Although, let's be honest, the weather's been kind of shit lately.

I know.

Today's been terrible.

But how can we, that's the whole reason why I created self-actualization coaching.

We're actually in the middle of a six-month program right now.

We're training coaches so that

these coaches can help clients identify what is their greatest potential.

So much of it has to come, it comes down to this kind of existential humanistic perspective that I take, you know, where we have to get in touch with this destiny within us.

And some of us evade our destiny because we think it's destructive.

And some of it, and yet it's teaching us things that we really should be listening to.

Roll May, the humanistic psychologist, calls it the demonic.

He said, you know, what is this guiding force, you know, this destiny that has the power to overtake all of you?

You know, what is this thing?

Sometimes when it has the power to overtake all of you, you, all of you, it's, that terrifies you and you run away from it and you evade your destiny your whole life.

But some of the most creative people have embraced it and have found a way to channel channel it for their greatest creativity.

But if someone's stuck, right, and they don't like, they don't know how, where even to begin, can you talk, do you have any, like, even in your coaching program?

Yeah.

What are some like actionable steps someone can take

to even see what their potential is?

So, yeah, we have a workbook called Choose Growth.

We have all sorts of things where you try to constantly get in touch with like, what are the sparks during your day that really, you know keeping a journal is a really helpful way of doing this getting in touch with like what aspects of your job are letting you up versus what aspects of your job aren't letting you up also learning character strengths and and and and like you can take tests for free yeah self-actualization test.com i put up a bunch of tests self-reflection and self-knowledge is a great first step you may have certain strengths you didn't even know you had right and and first so first of all i would say never give up i would say always have this

spirit of curiosity about yourself.

So start there with that curiosity.

Yeah.

And be like, well, okay, I'm stuck, but I just, I don't, usually stuckness is a reflection of you're not really self-connected, you know?

And so

going through the process of deeper self-connection, a lot of people feel stuck because they hear other people's, other people's voices in their heads.

They'll hear like, you know, their mother telling them, you should do this or that, do you should that, or, or maybe you're thinking to yourself, maybe you ignore certain messages that are sending you because they're not societally acceptable, or they're not like,

or you're like, I can't make money from that.

So you like, I would just guarantee you that if you feel stuck and hopeless in a lot of ways, there are so many things that are passing you by, signals within, as well as signals other people are sending you that you're really missing out on.

You're not paying attention to.

There's some really cool research on the difference between lucky people and unlucky people.

This is self-reported luck.

And people who report that they lead really lucky lives, like in a psychology experiment, they are more likely to be open to new experiences and notice some good things that are happening during the experiment that the other people did not even notice because they're so focused on how unlucky they are in life.

Some of this does relate to the victim mindset thing.

That is, that's exactly it.

Like, so that's why this whole victim mindset is such a good thing to kind of like really delve into, because I think a lot of times the people who are stuck and not moving forward is because they are stuck in this victim mindset, but they don't even know they're in the victim mindset because they can't see what they can't see.

So that's when that whole, the whole self, that's why I was curious, like, again, like, I've said this on the show tons of times, like if someone doesn't have the self-awareness ability or the EQ to even know, or they can be, or they just are not able to connect the dots, what's the first step for someone to even know they even have this victim mindstead?

And then you talk about how to, you know, the difference between learned helplessness

versus learned hopelessness.

Yeah.

Right.

Can you just kind of talk about both of those?

And

yeah, I could, I could.

They could.

There's this classic research by Martin Selgeman and his colleagues looking at learned helplessness as they started with rats and dogs where they were shocked.

And there's some ethical considerations about that as well.

But putting that aside,

yeah.

After a certain amount of shocking, even when they opened up the cage, the dogs didn't realize that they could leave the cage.

They had learned this sense of helplessness.

And then they tried to extend this to humans as well.

I don't know how much they, if they did shocking of humans, maybe they did.

But it sounds terrible, doesn't it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I'm following the problem.

I think psychologists do in the name of

data.

Of data, yeah.

But what they realized 50 years later is that they had gotten it completely wrong in humans.

That in humans, the default state in humans is helplessness, but what is learned is hopefulness.

So it's actually a theory of word hopefulness in humans, not a theory of word helplessness.

And we have to remember that because a victim mindset is our default state of being.

It's the easiest way to get attention, sympathy from others.

Yeah, sure.

When you're a kid, how many times did you lie to your mom about being sick?

Or

exaggerate a little bit.

Like, hey, mom, my tummy hurts.

I don't think I go to school.

It's the default state, but we have to overcome that.

We have to rise above that instinct if we're going to lead a

life with agency and intentionality and

reaching our highest potential.

So do you think the rise of social media, TikTok, Instagram has has made people's victim mindset even more like out of control?

Because

now you're becoming like, you get, you get a pat on the back for it, right?

Yes, I do.

Right.

I do.

So

what should people do?

Do they just not like, how, like, because technology is just, it's going, right?

Like, and it's so invasive in our lives, right?

How do, like, like, and you're getting, and you're getting a pat on the back for it.

How do we kind of take those people yet again out of that mindset into this whole idea, this whole empowerment mindset?

By the way, do you remember when empowerment was a big thing too?

That was a whole trend for a while.

When?

Women's empowerment.

Yeah, maybe

women's empowerment.

Well, that's a thing.

You know, the thing is, I think that even with social media, this idea of like women's empowerment was a big thing, or like, but the obsession over like the trauma, like all the pages that are like obsessed with trauma or and even vulnerability, I guess, and authenticity is another one.

They've override all the other stuff.

So if you are feeling bad about yourself, it's that, that's actually,

that, that actually, you, you get bonus, you get brownie points for that.

Right.

That's what I've noticed.

If you what?

You get brownie points if you feel, you know, like you've, you've been put upon, or like, look, how about this?

Even, like, you know, if you've been wrong by the world, if you're wrong by the world, like, look, even like you talk about the activism stuff

in the book, can we talk about that?

Yeah, of course.

Okay, can you please talk about it?

Because I think it's great that you put it in the book.

Well, I have a section on narcissistic activism.

There is research showing that the more you identify with certain causes, I mean, that's your whole life becomes about just those things.

And you feel entitled to special privileges because you have this cause.

There's actually research showing that people who

they're called virtuous victim signalers, people who feel the need to

almost 24-7 signal to others how much they've suffered and but how angelic they are.

That tends to be correlated with the dark triad of personality, things like narcissism, which we already mentioned, but also psychopathy and Machiavellianism and this sort of sadistic kind of enjoyment in taking down others.

So there are some darker personality traits that you see among

some

type of activists.

And I should be very clear, not all of activism is bad throughout the course of human history.

A lot of healthy activism has really moved society forward.

But I think it's important to distinguish between toxic activism and healthy activism.

Can we talk about the toxic activism?

Yeah, it's not helping anything.

It's just annoying everyone.

Give me an example.

Like you talk about in in the book.

Uh, what is an example?

Um, I don't know if I have a specific example, you don't have a you don't have a specific example.

Well, in the book, I talk about people who identify more strongly, like extremely, with LBT causes, with uh, environmentalism causes, with like a lot of the liberal, the standard liberal sort of things.

So, we often think about like you know, um, authoritarianism or um as just like a right-wing phenomenon, but there's emerging research suggesting there is a left-wing authoritarianism that

mirrors kind of in a horseshoe way.

They both meet together at some point, both the far right and the far left, you know, and it's left like 99% of people who are in the middle kind of shake their heads.

Like, what's going on here?

Right.

It's not just on the right, it's on the left as well.

Can you talk about some of the things that you get?

These causes that by themselves, there's not an issue with, like, you know, there's no problem having, you know, believing in rights for gay, bisexual, you know, individuals, right?

Um, lesbians.

So, um, whatever the whole rainbow stands for, they're making me say that.

I don't, I don't know.

I think they added another letter,

or maybe not.

Oh, there's a Q, an L B G Q, no, L, B, L, T, and then there's a fight between should the T be part of it or not.

And that's the whole thing I did.

There's a bifurcation within that community.

I don't want to get into any of that,

you know, the bifurcation, but there's there's no problem having certain causes.

But this research is showing what happens when you have a certain extremist mindset about the activism where your way is the right way.

Anyone who doesn't agree with you deserves to be treated poorly, even violently.

You know, there's this kind of way of thinking that

can be very damaging to society.

So what's the call to action for that?

What are the things that people have?

What are the cat, like the qualities of the dark triad?

I think you called it.

What's in that triad?

Like, what is those things?

Well, that's the narcissism, psychopathy, and machava.

Okay, so they have, so then

what do people do about that?

I guess is the question.

Like, you just avoid these people.

Avoid these people.

Well, I know.

So, like, but like, but they're the, but they have a, it's the, it's the squeaky, uh, squeaky oil.

the squeaky wheel that gets the oil, right?

Yeah.

And it's like damaging to our society.

It is.

It is.

It's also, we've lost nuance, you know, which I'm trying to do right now because I, you know, I'm the last one who wants to be quoted as saying, you know, that it's, it's, it's, it's, uh, it's bad to believe in certain causes.

No, that's not what you're saying.

Well, that's definitely not what I'm saying.

But but I think we've lost all nuance because the loudest voices have taken over and make any other voice feel like there's no place for their voice.

No, exactly.

exactly so you so basically though you're you so you basically you were seeing the victim you're saying that's why you're what you wanted to write the book because you saw this stuff happening and you wanted to kind of like everywhere like the what is the what other word i love that you said something that it was like the instead of saying like the trauma what i loved you gave other options for for how to how to talk about survival stress like survival stress yes like you talk about how language makes such a big difference in how the out like how

it makes a big difference, right?

Because if you think of yourself as someone who has trauma, you're going to act a certain way, right?

Yes.

Yes.

I mean, how the self-talk, the way the narratives and the things we tell ourselves about the cause of why we are the way we are really does impact our empowerment versus whether or not we're going to have a victim mindset over something.

Right.

So like,

how do we start self?

How do we start changing the way we talk to ourselves?

Start by changing the way you talk to to yourself.

Exactly.

Because what happens in our, in our brain, like, if I heard that no matter how, like, what our brain doesn't know the difference between what we say or what we do, like, if, if we, if we say something, then our body acts as if it's actually true, correct?

Yeah.

Is that not true?

Because I'm not the doctor, but you are.

But I thought that's what I, that's what a lot of other people have said to me.

There is a whole psychology of self-talk and the real importance of how we interpret certain situations, right?

There's a whole field of cognitive behavioral therapy, right?

That is all about do we catastrophize things?

Do we see things in black and white terms?

You know, the trauma thing is just a word that has become exhausted

in our society because it's become everything.

It's become

this one world word, this one word has

is now used to describe back pain every every everything you know oh yeah there's a book out your body keeps the soul the body keeps the science

it's an immensely popular book yeah and it's become like a cult like book and it's like for me to even have some a little bit of criticism over some of the things that are said in that book drives them crazy right the ones that treat it like it's a religion you know but that's science is not a cult or religion i mean science we have to look at the data where it comes you know um there are a lot of limitations to that.

You know, pre-existing personality traits matter too.

Not everything is environmentally determined.

Right.

We don't live in a completely environmentally determined universe, right?

A lot of also a lot of our choices are within our own control that we just refuse to take responsibility for.

You know, it's much easier to blame, much easier to blame that one thing that happened to you when you were four than to, at now age 50, take steps to lead a better, healthier, happier life.

Right.

Because also the rumination of it, right?

Like you, because rumination is a big part of it.

It's a big part of it.

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What's your take on talk therapy?

You're asking good questions.

Thanks.

You're a great interviewer.

Oh, thank you.

You're welcome.

Thank you.

Talk therapy is good, can be good.

Yeah, it's like having a friend

that listens to you.

That you pay a lot of money to you.

You're paying for unconditional positive regard.

There are a lot of lonely people out there that

often need a little bit of validation.

There is a whole form of therapy now called affirming therapy that we're, and I don't know how I feel about this.

Right.

No matter what meshugana you have going on with you, that's a Jewish.

I got it right away.

Mishuga is like crazy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Whatever Meshugana you have, you go to this affirming therapist and they just affirm it.

Like, don't worry, it's good that you're, you know, a psychopath.

Like, don't worry, you know, like, I, you know, affirming care now, you know, no matter whatever you are, it's great, you know, and it makes you feel good about yourself.

You know, um, I'm not convinced that's the best form of therapy, but that is a very popular form of therapy that's cropping up now.

Is that where that, are you serious?

Oh, yeah, it's a thing now.

It's a really big thing.

So if I were to Google affirm like at like a yeah you go on psychology day you're looking for a therapist look i'm looking for an affirming psychologist yeah yeah so people are literally paying for someone just to kind of affirm yeah yeah that they whatever they say is whatever it is acceptance right now look i am a believer in uh carl rogers notion of unconditional positive regard but as even carl rogers made clear uh acceptance doesn't necessarily mean liking or that you don't want to change self-acceptance is the first step to change right But change is also a good thing.

It's also, you know, if a lot of people are struggling horribly with depression or the experience of depression or whatever it is and they're seeking, they need help.

I don't know about the affirm how helpful the affirming part is, you know, maybe as a first step, but, but there needs to be another step.

Well, also, that's like, it kind of reminds me of just hanging around people who just validate you all the time.

Yes.

Right.

Like movie stars do that all the time.

It's like fast food, you know, like it feels good in the moment, but it's like you go home and you're the same person.

Exactly.

And like, there's no growth there.

There's no challenge.

There's no nothing.

That's right.

That's right.

So is that really something that people are growing?

I would kid you not.

Wow.

That's crazy.

See, like, I would think that also just over, like, and I'm sure you, we both, we all know people who have been going to the same therapist for 20 years, twice a week, once a week.

And where, like, at what point is it just like, you know, a bad habit that you're spending money on, right?

Because, and, or,

and the rumination of talking about your problem.

And, you know, when, when people go to a therapist, it's like they put a label on you or psychiatrists.

Oh, yeah, you have your OCD and ADD.

And now that you think that you are these things, you walk through life.

This goes back to the beginning of the podcast, and you think that's what you are, unless you break free from those things and say, that doesn't, that's not going to stop me from trying to achieve this and go after that right like these things are putting shackles on people's ankles a lot of times this is why i prefer coaching you know i create a form of coaching which is very forward looking as opposed to past look looking a self-talk self-therapy self-talk therapy yeah i mean it can be damaging like you're pointing out it's not always great and it's also not for everyone i saw a very funny bill may sort of uh he has a podcast i love him yeah me too

yeah yeah Yeah, I tend to agree with a lot of his views.

I tend to agree with almost everything lately.

But I like people like him.

I like people like Larry David.

You know, I like these like honest Jews.

Like, I just, like, there's like, you know, they say things that how they really feel, even if it's not societally, you know, like, like, Bill Mair, Bill Maher is like, is he Jewish?

Bill Maher.

Bill Maher.

Bill Maher.

Come to think of it.

I mean, he might not be.

I don't know if he's Jewish.

He's very pro-Israel right now.

I mean, but then Larry David certainly is.

Larry David.

Of course it is.

Wait, is Bill Moore Jewish?

You know, I think he is.

He'sh.

He's Jewish.

But if your mom's Jewish, you're Jewish.

Right.

Okay.

But he was talking about, he's like, he's like, you know, not a practicing Jew.

He's like, look, I've done, I've done therapy and

he's like, honestly, like, it's like,

I want them to push me a little more.

You know, they're like, they're like, oh, that's, oh, really?

Okay.

You know, it's like, it's like, you know, what am I getting out of that?

You know, so I think that it's not for everyone.

I also don't think you should feel shamed if you're you're in therapy and you're not getting something out of it.

It can be awkward sometimes breaking up with a therapist, but sometimes it needs to happen.

I had a therapist I didn't really like, to be honest.

Yes, to deal with mother issues.

And what happened?

I felt like this therapist was being too hard on my mom.

Yeah.

I felt sorry for my mom.

Like, I didn't want to have bashing sessions about my, that's not like, I had some issues with my mom.

Yes, she's overprotective.

She's crazy.

But, but, you know, she has a big heart.

She means well but then the you know the therapist like trying to have me convinced that like trauma was there you know and all this stuff that i was like i don't know like i don't i don't i don't i don't know if i agree with you 100 but by the way were you a psychologist already by this point yeah this is recently this is recently so that's even better by the way that's hilarious so I think they have a lot of therapists have to like feel like they're earning their pay, right?

So they have to find somebody to blame it on.

Yeah.

And they have to label you or

doing their job.

It's like giving me a victim mindset right you're giving you're like do you know i wrote this book on how to overcome

the book yeah the book on how to overcome a victim mindset and you're telling me but this is the problem yeah right but i i wonder if it's is it because people don't have enough friends like the social element, right?

Like people don't socialize anymore.

People need an outlet.

And is that, do you think that's why a lot of people go to therapy?

Or is it because they don't have someone they can trust?

Like, what's you, what do you think?

This is more just a question.

Like, I would ask, what do you think the reason is that people are just going, like now

it's become so popular to have a therapist that it's becoming someone's part of everyone's habitual day.

That wasn't how it was when I was a kid.

And I don't have a therapist.

I'm the only one of my friends, by the way, who doesn't have one.

And I get made fun of.

That's terrible.

You should not be meant to feel shame for that.

In fact, I think sometimes choosing a coach or a therapist is a very wise choice.

A coach, but I think I agree with what you said.

Because a lot of times coaches push you forward and they're not doing the blame game.

Because in my opinion, blaming somebody is not going to move you.

It's not going to move the puck.

Look, I'm of mind that no one should feel shamed for how they choose to heal.

I argue that there's something called narcissistic

for everything.

For everything I have narcissistic.

There's narcissistic spirituality.

There's narcissistic.

So there are people who they'll go to one silent meditation retreat and they'll come back, they'll cancel half their friends because now their friends, they've, they've, they've had an epiphany that their, their friends are not as enlightened as they are.

You had one freaking yoga retreat.

Like, that doesn't make you more enlightened all of a sudden than all your friends, you know, but they'll come back and they'll feel like they're more enlightened.

So it's called the I'm Enlightened and You're Not effect.

It's actually a real effect in psychology.

Really?

And what happens with that person?

Does the pendulum swing back and they make amends?

Or

interests a question.

I don't know.

I don't know about over time, but you do tend to see this effect after

engagement in spiritual practices.

I also could see this happening with therapy.

The person who goes to a therapist, you know, thinks that they're now a better person than those who don't go to therapy.

You see this actually in so many different domains.

You see this a lot in the fitness community with like fat phobia, you know, with like, oh, because you work, like if you've had, if you were overweight and you lost a lot of weight and that's your story, you know, those people people tend to like really have a deep visceral like uh reaction to fat people you know because they're they're they represent to them what they hated about themselves back in the day right yeah but but that's horrible like that's true but that's also like me like most of the time people hate things that remind them of themselves like when i when when you don't like something about someone tip like typically it's because you're who you used to be and you feel like you've overcome as well.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So that makes actual sense to me.

That makes sense to me.

And a bad it's a really it's true and then you shame them yeah which by the way you talk about the shame in the book right i'm not about shaming yeah yeah like my my tone in this book is what i call honest love yeah you know like i'm not trying to shame anyone for their choices um i want what's best for everyone, you know, and I want people to figure that out for themselves and then to go after it, not with a victim mindset.

Right, right, right, right, right.

So with, but with this, you're saying something about with the shame, people tend to feel shame because how they are societal, how they're, how people see them in society.

People, yes, that's exactly right.

Even if we didn't have shame,

so people might not have had any shame over something, and then they talk about something they're excited about, and then they see how it's reacted, you know, like, and then they're like, oh, shit, like, now I, now I have shame over this.

I didn't, I didn't a minute ago.

Right, right, right, right.

Now you do, right, right, right.

Last time I'm telling anyone what Bobby and I did sexually in the bedroom last year.

Right, right, you know, because

you once you get judged, that's it, right?

Yeah, yeah, it has nothing to do with like what you actually did, what the deal,

what anything.

It's how people react to you.

Yeah.

Yep.

We're so sensitive as a social species, you know.

But isn't it interesting?

You could have no shame at all of things you're doing in your life if you never had to talk to another human.

If I never told anybody to blissfully go about your life doing what you want to do.

I was going to say, isn't that then, do you have guilt?

Because is guilt when you just, when you don't tell somebody, can you feel well guilt is different than shame right that's what i'm saying it's more guilt is is actually more productive guilt with guilt you you've done something to cause someone harm and you want to make a repair but you don't take it personally you don't you don't say you're you're bad with shame is something different sometimes with shame you're not even harming someone else you're with social approval yeah you know everyone is so judgy these days have you noticed that like yes

but if you go on like yes social media everyone is judging everyone for their life choices.

That's what it is, but it's all about polarization, right?

Yeah.

And there's, there's no, it's like you were saying, there's no in-between.

It's no.

You're either on this side or you're that side.

God forbid.

You're right.

Either you're sex positive or a conservative Christian.

Those are the only two options we got right now.

Yeah.

And not at all.

And if you, and if you even are on one side and you and you see something on the other side that makes a little sense and you make mention of it, you'll get bashed by your, whoever your contingency is.

Oh, absolutely.

Or like, it would be like, like, every now and then, something comes along and that Trump does that.

I'm like, I'm glad he's doing that.

Right.

And it's like, my, all my, my friends, right.

You can't, you can't even, you know, it's like this guy can't ever do any right.

I know.

But that exactly.

And you know what I'm saying?

By the way, do I know what you're saying?

I mean, I think I said one thing on social media that I was like very, that I was really happy about.

And people went nuts

because I was like, I was, I was basically applauding the devil.

Right.

But then if on the other side, you know what I mean?

So it's very, very hard.

Like, so that's why I'm saying like it's even, it's hard to have

right now.

I feel we're in a very interesting time because your friend group has to also be who you're politically sided with.

I think it's a shame, right?

Yeah.

You're right.

You're absolutely right.

And if you are not sided with them, you will literally have no, you will lose that person as a friend.

That's right.

It is.

We've never been in a time like this in history, I don't think.

It's a crazy time that we're living in right now.

Isn't it just insane?

It's absolutely insane.

Everything is politicized.

Everything is.

I can say, I wish everyone love today, and I'll get, oh, you dems are always virtue signaling.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm like, virtue signaling?

What?

It's true, though.

And then everything's a conspiracy theory.

But what's the psychological, what is this?

What is the psychosis on that?

That why we cannot be friends with the other side now?

Like, what's happening in our society psychologically?

Well, that's what politics has become is that politics is now focusing on what's bad about the out-group as opposed to what's good about your own in-group.

And that's just what politics has become.

Articles have been written about this by political psychologists that that's the age of what we're living in.

There is a term for this, but I'm blanking on it right now, but that they coined.

But that is, you know, everyone's only focusing on, you're only defining yourself by what you hate about the other, you know?

Yeah.

And that's very different than defining your group based on what you love about your group.

You know, that's nobody loves their action.

No one actually loves their own group anymore, right?

No one has to control their own.

Do the Democrats love their group?

No, they don't.

But that's actually very true.

I didn't even think of it that way.

Is that controversial?

No, it's not controversial at all.

What I think was interesting, I think that's 100% accurate, right?

Because how people

connect is through misery and joy's company, right?

Correct.

So if you and I would connect it by saying we're by bashing Trump, let's say,

as opposed to talking about what we have in common, it's not as interesting.

No, trauma bonding.

Right.

But we're trauma bonding and we're connecting over hating somebody else.

And I suppose that's what we're doing right now, you know?

That's what we're doing right now.

But

I think that's the way people socialize today.

Yeah, maybe, maybe.

No, not maybe.

Yes, you are right.

That is the way people socialize.

It's in the air.

It's in the air.

How do we find a happy, where does the pendulum come back?

Like, what do, like, I know you're not like,

well, actually, you are a mind reader, actually.

I was going to say, I know you're not a mind reader, but you are.

But as a psychologist, like, where do you, where do you, where do you see the trends going for human behavior in this way for society?

Yeah, I just wish I could be more optimistic about the trend lines.

Right.

But I think we're in the middle of something historically right now, and it

needs to go through it before it gets better.

And

again, I really wish I could just lie to you and say I feel a great sense of optimism

because I am usually such an optimistic guy.

But if you read the tea leaves,

you know, we're going through a real change in leadership, a change in

what it means to be America.

You know, what does it mean?

to be an American, you know, and

a lot of conceptualizations of, you know, we've never been more divided on morality issues you know uh and everyone has thinks that they're the most moral person of them all right exactly it's true

and uh it it it it it needs to go we need to get through it to get to out to the other side yeah

i i see i i think we're we're we're in a we're in a bad place personally but doesn't mean you can't do your best you can't do exactly um to show up in this world how you want to show up there there's my optimism there's your optimism okay well on that though, how about cultivating psychological flexibility?

Yeah, that's super important because there's a whole research literature on the act approach to psychology, ACT,

where you develop a psychological flexibility that allows you to change your goals, change your, even if you're not feeling like you're in the mood to do something,

you change based on your higher values.

Like, where do you really want to go?

I have this whole sailboat model of self-actualization.

You know, like, where is the port you want to sail to?

Get really clear on that.

And when you get really clear on that, a lot of your momentary by momentary decisions change and are different.

You know, and

psychological flexibility is the opposite of what's called experiential avoidance.

A lot of people have experiential avoidance for things.

They avoid things that make them feel uncomfortable, you know.

And

as all the research shows, experiential avoidance is not the way to growth.

Well, that's why they say, like,

I've seen a lot of lot that the idea of just overall like psychological flexibility, every type of flexibility, adaptability is how people, that's, those are the most healthy people in everything in life, right?

Being able to like go with the punches and change and

be malleable.

It's called different things depending on what researcher you are.

But it's all the same shit.

It's all the same shit.

Yeah.

George Bonanno calls it the flexibility mindset.

Yeah.

He says that's the most important thing for resilience.

But yeah, I mean, that's where it's at is having that flexibility, not even like flexibility, having a flexible identity as well.

Like

it's lacking these days.

People are so

hard set.

I am a Democrat.

Therefore, don't even talk to me about the good anyone else could do if they're not a Democrat too.

Or I am a Republican.

I don't mean to pick on the Democrats.

Right, Right, right.

Um, whatever it is, I am this, I am that.

And

we've become such an identity-obsessed culture where everything revolves around that, um, that we're not leaving ourselves flexible to different ways of being, different ways of interacting with others, with perspectives that may seem very different to the way we think, but you know, getting curious about it, being like, huh, you know, my identity isn't so rigid that I can't accommodate this this other worldview at all.

You know, it's saying you can, you can, you can integrate multiple things in this world.

Right, right, right, right.

No, I think that's, I agree 100%.

What else do you want to talk about from your book?

Is there anything we're leaving out that's important that you want to talk about?

I mean, part one of the book is all about all the ways that you're a victim to your own inner self.

You know, we often talk about like being a victim to external circumstances, but part one is all about being a victim to your own need for self-esteem, for people pleasing, for your past to be a victim to your past these sorts of things people pleasing is a big one yeah

that's a big one too yes do you identify with that at all um

i don't think so i don't think i'm a people pleaser that's cool but i do see

what are you smiling at am i a people pleaser

Yeah, that's what I thought.

That's not one of my problems.

I have other issues way bigger than that, but that's not one of them.

Are you a people pleaser?

I'm a recovered people pleaser.

Really?

What comes with that?

What comes with being a people pleaser?

Well, I think part of it is it's a good thing.

Like you have empathy, right?

You don't want to hurt people's feelings.

But I've lived long enough on this planet at this point that I've noticed that not everything you do to piss someone off was anything you actually did.

Yeah.

Exactly.

That's what, that's what recovered people pleasers or people who want to be recovered like me need to really realize.

You can do, you know, like

an easy example is I'm in in the uber with this guy on the way here people are honking their horn at him we're trying to figure out what the heck is going on people you know like he's like i'm doing everything right i'm moving in the straight in my lane people are honking their horns oh how dare you you whatever i don't know if i want a curse but it's like you can go and have the best of intentions and you still and you still won't please everyone in fact the more there's a paradox actually it's interesting the more you try to live a life where you don't ruffle any feathers, like you try to do, I do everything right.

I'm going to try to dot every eye.

The more you actually piss people off.

That's the truth.

Isn't that?

It's a deep truth.

Isn't that, that is like Murphy's law, though, isn't that true?

Maybe.

It's also like no good deed goes unpunished, right?

Yeah.

Isn't that so true?

Yeah, like you can't live your life making your decisions so that it pleases someone else.

You know, at a certain point, you lose your authenticity, you lose your soul.

You do.

You lose your soul.

Unfortunately.

And you're recovering, so you're okay, though, right now.

I'm in a good place.

This book is

a real, is really like the voice, my voice, where it's at in 2025.

I don't think I could have written this book in 10 years ago.

No, no, no, no, no, because you because why?

Oh, my God.

My books were always so like trying to please everyone.

No, no, really?

Yeah, well, not, I mean, maybe I'm being too hard on myself, but they were definitely just sugary, sweet books, you know?

This book has some,

edgier.

Yeah, you're like, you're pulling out some like stops there a little bit.

A little edgy.

A little edgier.

Maybe living on the wild side a little bit.

But your stuff that you talked about in earlier years about intelligence, that's not exactly that.

That's true.

It did try to challenge the system.

No, that's true.

But there's...

But why?

Tell me why.

I love the intelligence part.

So you can talk about all day if you want.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Well, I had for many, many years, I thought my mission on life was to redefine intelligence For the first 20, for the first 30 years of my life, I think I thought that that's why I was on this planet, was to take on the IQ, you know, and

researchers and school psychologists and change the education system and show that we need to broaden our way of thinking about intelligence.

And I wrote a book called Ungifted, which outlined a lot of my view on that.

But then I was like, oh, I'm still alive.

You know, I wrote that book.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What's next?

And

you keep seeing seeing there are higher mount there are higher mountains to climb even you don't know it at the time what was your main theme about intelligence that you know that you researched well it was you know neurodiversity um the idea that there are people with a lot of hidden strengths and forms of intelligence that we really don't pick up on in an iq test you know or at school you know in a classroom um and i really wanted to shine a spotlight on those individuals they don't just have to be kids they could be adults too totally yeah i think that we get really stuck in this idea that if

you're not academically smart, then you're not smart at all.

Yeah.

And there's so many other

stupid academics.

Most academics.

Well, a lot of them are socially inept.

They can't, like, they don't know how to socialize.

That's

they don't have, they don't have an EQ.

There's no status, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

They don't have emotional intelligence.

They don't, maybe they're not like talented.

They don't have like spatial awareness, spatial intelligence.

There's a lot of different things.

I don't have spatial intelligence.

You don't suck at spatial.

But you know your academic.

IVQ, I VQ.

You do?

Yeah.

But I think you're surprised.

I don't know.

I mean, I don't know you well enough, but I think

you have a lot of academic intelligence.

You can retain a lot of information.

Yes, but I bet at directions.

Well, you can be bad at directions, but like you've sprouted out, like you quoted a bunch of people in this podcast.

Like you're like, but Carl blah, blah, blah says that in IQ.

I am very scholarly.

You're very scholarly.

That's true.

So

in all of your learnings and intelligence, what was like, what are a couple of

some very cogent points that you can share with us?

Like, basically,

everything I've ever studied

success and intelligence.

It's all about the habits and the hustle.

It's definitely about the habits.

If you ask me,

yes, okay.

However, imagine that.

And what I mean by that is.

Yes, go ahead.

So much of life is

really

connecting with yourself and really getting deep, deep down into

and taking responsibility for your whole self, not just the parts of you that you like.

There's, I call it the authenticity bias.

We only circle the adjectives that are positive and say that's the real me and all the stuff isn't the real you.

But really taking responsibility for your whole existence and

being passionate about what you do and

really putting that, putting that grid into it.

You know, if you don't have the self-belief, you know, like none of this stuff is going you know no one i hate to say it but no one's coming to save you yeah no idea that's true i the reason why i was asking i really wanted to kind of get into the intelligence thing is yeah oh yeah

i did a my first ted talk a long time ago was about the idea of being bold and i talk about this idea that it went like pretty viral that i'm a big believer that It's not about how smart.

I think boldness is way more important than intelligence.

I think if you're bold enough to go after something, those are the people that win in life.

Because a lot of times when you're you're smart right academically you tend to overthink you tend to have analysis paralysis you're very myopic in one way right versus people who are out there going so that's why whenever i see it that's what how i initially found like you know because everything about my stuff was around intelligence and boldness and just you came up and i love what you were talking about because it's so it's so true and it's so important and i think people get so stuck on like oh i'm stupid because you're bad you've you've got bad school grades but you could be really really brilliant in other ways that will

and you will supersede the rest of those people yeah for sure um if you wanted some of my insights about intelligence specifically I really do have this whole theory where I argue that we can distinguish between intellectual curiosity and intellectual sort of raw processing speed, you know, so to speak.

There are a lot of people that don't have a shred of intellectual curiosity, but are good at solving, you know, IQ IQ-type problems.

And they can spit out, you know, complex math equations, but are not particularly curious about getting to know others,

as well as intellectually curious.

I think no matter what your IQ is, you can still be, you know, to a certain degree, you know, like there is, there's intellectual disability, which makes it difficult, very difficult, but we all can be more curious about the world, how it works, and about what the truth is about things.

So many smart people right now who are not curious, particularly curious about the truth.

Yeah, well, 100%.

I think that's why the whole intellectually, the whole curiosity piece, I think is the most important part.

Cause if you're a curious person, that's the pathway to learn, like for opportunity, for communication, for like connection.

Like if you don't have that piece, you can be solving problems all day and all night and you're going to get nowhere fast, really.

Like you'll have the ceiling is much lower.

What you said.

Yeah, thank you.

All right.

Well, Scott, thank you for being here.

I really appreciate it.

What a wide-ranging conversation.

I know.

I wanted to cover, like I said, I wanted you here for a long time.

And

I may have seen a little sporatic, like a little bit all over the place, because there are so many things like I told you

that I like that you talk about.

Oh, you were great.

Oh, thank you.

You were great.

The book is great.

Rise above is really, really good.

And I just, like I said, keep on doing what you're doing.

You do a lot of research, right?

Like you can't remember it.

You remember everything.

I have a bit of something within psychology where I can remember everything.

yeah like do you have like a photographic memory no only within psychology but you can remember everything you've ever seen in it because it's there's something some people have said that have said that about me yeah there's something about that where I remember every study I've come across and can it comes comes back to me at the right time I don't know but I don't I don't have that about everything in my life no but with that it works like so do you as a cognitive psychologist you do a lot of research yes you have your coaching program you write books the center for human potential the center for and so what like what else are you doing with your time oh that's a bit that's a lot of that's a lot of stuff

no there's a lot um so there's the the book this book has come out podcast I write for my sub stack called beautiful minds is the name of my sub stack and I have uh and this fall I'll be uh full-time at uh Columbia Barnard College Columbia teaching full-time yeah yeah I'm in the process of moving back to New York you are yes

congratulations thank you full time huh huh?

Do you know they did a year?

At least for a year.

At least for a year.

Do you know that they just took away

$400 million in funding?

I'm very aware of everything going on.

I'm sure you do.

What do you think about that?

I mean, let's off top of it.

Okay, okay.

So, congratulations, though.

That's a great job.

A great job on the book, on the new job.

And where do people find people can find the book wherever, on Amazon, wherever?

Yes.

And you're on Instagram.

Insta.

I'm on Insta.

Scott Barrett at Scott Barrett Kaufman or the amazing Dr.

Scott, if you want to follow my magician.

Right, that's exactly it.

You promised you're going to do it with me after maybe off once the camera.

Yes, of course.

Okay, thank you guys.

Thank you for being on here.