The Art of Saying "No" and Setting Boundaries Without Guilt with Celebrity Therapist | EP 54

When you say yes when you really want to say no, not only is that not nice, it's misleading. It's giving corrupted data to the people in your life about who you are and what you like and what you prefer.
So it blocks intimacy. And we're like, but I don't want to hurt their feelings and I want to be nice.
But we really have to understand that saying yes when you want to say no is being dishonest. And that is damaging.
So what we need to do is learn how to look at boundaries and setting limits and telling the truth as something that is exciting and good for our relationships because it is. And if your relationship blows up fully because you set a boundary or assert a desire, a need, or a want, that relationship was built on your self abandonment.
So, ooh, that's good. Are you a boundary first timer? Are you a repeat offender or are you a boundary destroyer? Welcome to the Healing and Human Potential Podcast.
Today, we're going to dive into the transformative power of boundaries and how they can reshape our relationships, our self-worth, and our overall wellbeing-being. Our guest is somebody who's dedicated our life's work to helping people create freedom and fulfillment that comes through setting healthy boundaries.
Terry Cole is a psychotherapist and author of Boundary Boss and her recent book, Too Much, a guide for breaking the cycle of high-functioning codependency. So we're going to explore how to begin establishing boundaries in relationships where they've never existed before, the challenges that might come along the way.
I'm going to share some of my vulnerable truths around the topics, and then she's going to walk you through the five key boundaries that everyone should know about, as well as practical strategies that you can start implementing today. So whether you're new to the idea of setting boundaries or you're just looking to redefine the boundaries you already have, sit back and prepare for an enlightening conversation that might just change the way that you approach relationships from here on out.
I'm so happy that you're here. I literally reached out to you when I was reading one of your books about boundaries, which I want to get into and your book.
But I want to start us off with boundaries because I know a lot of people have a hard time setting boundaries, worrying about what other people think when we set those boundaries. And if we don't, and I was talking about the Enneagram right before this, two's in the Enneagram, the helper, oftentimes they won't set boundaries and then they'll pendulum towards being a challenger and setting really harsh boundaries.
And I think it's important to set us up to thrive by having healthy boundaries. But for people that don't have good examples, maybe they don't know where to begin, where do they begin? What challenges might they face so that they can think it through by learning from you in advance? I think that we have to start with what are boundaries? Because I do think there's a lot of misinformation and there's a lot of confusion.
So how I identify them is I want you to think about it as your own personal rules of engagement to let other people know what's okay with you and what's not okay with you. So now that's simple.
That doesn't mean it's easy, but it is simple. So that's how I want you to think of it.
According to me, your boundaries are made up of your preferences, your desires, your limits, and your deal breakers, like your non-negotiables. So they're not all made the same, right? My preference, tea over coffee, is not as important as a deal breaker in a relationship that if someone I'm with relapses, that there's a certain period of time until I will end the relationship, right? Like we're talking about different things.
And I feel like people, a lot of times think boundaries are like

all the same, like I'm just going to make a boundary. It isn't that, it's knowing yourself.

So here are the problems with effectively setting and maintaining boundaries is most of the time,

we don't even know what they are, right? I say to my clients, like, what are your preferences,

desires, limits, and deal breakers? And even if they do know it, a lot of times they don't know

Thank you. time, we don't even know what they are, right? I say to my clients, like, what are your preferences, desires, limits, and deal breakers? And even if they do know it, a lot of times they don't know it, but let's say they do.
I go, okay. So now to actually be fluent in boundaries, you need to have the language and the ability to concisely, transparently communicate those boundaries when you so choose.
And therein lies the rub, because a lot of times we know it. We know what's getting on our nerves.
We know what feels like someone's trampling over something or taking advantage or someone says something that doesn't sit right with us. But we really just don't know how to address it.
And that's what I teach you in Boundary Boss, is how to learn the language of boundaries. And the reason we don't know is if you think about, let's go back.
I hate to go back to the scene of the crime, but we must, which is childhood. Yeah.
Right? What did we learn? Most of us learn to be good girls. Most of us learn to be, if you don't have anything nice to say, buddy, don't say anything at all.
Right? So when you think about the messaging, a lot of us were indoctrinated into this cult of nice,

being like the highest virtue, the highest value that there could be.

And yet, I can tell you from being a therapist for 27 years, that's not accurate.

Because when you say yes, when you really want to say no, not only is that not nice,

it's misleading.

It's giving corrupted data to the people in your life about who you are and what you like and what you prefer. So it blocks intimacy.
And we're like, but I don't want to hurt their feelings and I want to be nice. But we really have to understand that saying yes when you want to say no is being dishonest.
And that is damaging. So what we need to do is learn how to look at boundaries and setting limits and telling the truth as something that is exciting and good for our relationships because it is.
And you can learn. That's why I wrote a whole book about it.
Yeah. And are there any examples or scripts that would help set people off? Because I think, yes, first identifying and then being able to speak it.
I think that the speaking, it might be more helpful to give something grounded or practical. I think what we have to start with doing is stopping the auto yes.
So this is behavioral, but it is the first stop on this train of becoming fluent in the language of boundaries, is realizing, are you a people pleaser? Are you seeking external validation? Or are you so habituated in the process of just saying yes, when someone asks you for something that you're really not, it's not a mindful yes, it's a reactionary or an automatic yes. So instead of doing that, just take the next seven days and you're going to buy time.
So let's learn how to buy time. It's not hard.

When someone asks you to do something right now, you guys, you're watching, you're listening, decide no Insta yesing for the next seven days. Someone says, hey, we're going out to dinner on Saturday.
Do you guys want to come? Actually, I need to check with my partner. I'll let you know tomorrow or the next day.
Even if you know you want to go, let's start getting into the process of not like we've trained people to expect an instant answer from us a lot of times, or we've trained people that we will text them back immediately, or that we will, right, that they can expect this grade A service from us, even if it's at the expense of ourselves. and when we're insta-yessing, there's no way we're thinking.
That's not a mindful yes. That's an approval-based yes.
I don't know how to say no. I didn't want them to feel bad.
And this is where codependency comes in because anytime you think, I don't want them to feel or I don't want them to think, you need to just back your tush up and get back to your own side of the street. Because what they think and what they feel is their side of the street.
Right? So we are only and can only be responsible for our own. So I feel like buying time so that you say to someone, I'll let you know on Wednesday, It is so much easier to give an honest no when you have not already given a reactionary yes.
And think about how many times you say yes to something that you know you 100% do not want to do. And how many times you might just conveniently get a migraine on that morning of that baby shower you didn't want to go to from the beginning or didn't feel like you're even close enough to the person to be invited to it.
And it would have been, it's so much cleaner in our relationships energetically when we have honest and spoken agreements instead of silent and implied or assumed agreements. Yeah.
I'm just even thinking about one of my best friends who would call herself a people pleaser and she's doing something called the truth project where she's just speaking honest truth for 30 days. And if she doesn't say what's true, she has to start over for 30 days.
And being her friend, I feel closer to her in this because I know what she's saying is honest. And I want to know what her truth is.
I feel closer to her. And so I want to give myself more permission to do that in my own life.
But you talk about these five key boundaries. Will you share with us what the five key boundaries are? Well, sort of the areas of boundaries, right? So you have emotional, psychological, physical, financial.
There's a fifth one. I don't know what it is, but it'll come to me.
So it's all the areas of our life. And so they're all different, right? When you figure your physical boundary, this is your biggest one sort of because your body and how people relate to you with this.
It's very important that you're able to set limits. If someone is standing too close to you, hey, can you back up? You're a little too close for my comfort.
Right? There's all these ways like the assumption or the myths about boundaries that you have to be mean about them is not true. So what is an emotional boundary is how you feel.
When you have healthy emotional boundaries, you know that you're not responsible for how someone else feels, right? So you're not as prone to feel guilty or to be guiltable sort of because you're well aware that you're, and you also don't blame other people for the way that you feel, right? Your mental boundaries is knowing what you think, being to hold on to your opinion even with your when you're with other people who disagree or even if you're with your family and especially if it's an enmeshed family system or a family system where it's sort of group think can you be different can you think differently and and can you not flip out right because another thing is if we get very activated that someone else doesn't agree with us, that tells us that our mental boundaries are disordered, that they need a little bit of work. Financial boundaries and material boundaries.
That's the other one I was trying to think of. This is how you relate to your stuff.
Do you lend your stuff, your car? How you relate to your home? Is this a no-shoe home to ask people to take your shoes off? Or are there areas of your home that other people can't go? Perhaps your bedroom is a sacred place for you, so you don't let others in there. The way you relate, maybe you keep your car very clean, and you have a sister who wants to borrow it, but she's a slob.
You wanting her to keep it clean because it's yours, that is your boundary. And you need to communicate that to her.
And you have a right to that. Because here's another thing is that people get all into judging.
Like, well, you're just a neat freak. No.
Hey man, my car, my rules, you want to borrow it. You give it back to me with gas and clean.
And if you don't want to do that, don't don't borrow it that is a boundary that is a limit that we set with other people and you can do it very lovingly but it's like having a certain amount of self-respect and self-consideration when we have the ability to honestly share our yeses and our nos right our limits and our excite and our preferences all a part of your boundaries. And, you know, part of the thing that's really important about this is that your boundaries, your preferences, desires, limits, and deal breakers don't just comprise your boundaries.
They also, think about that, they make up who you are, right? So it's important. It's not just your boundaries.
This is who you are or your preferences, your desires, right? What are your desires? Your dreams, what you want to do with your life, your limits, what does not work for you. I stopped drinking many, many years ago, so I don't like being around drunk people.
So I always drive. My friends are like, why are you taking your own car? I'm like, because I want to.
Why do you care? I don't need your permission to take my own car. I don't need to convince you I have a right to take my own car.
I don't give a shit. Right? I know when it's time for me to leave any place, I will have the keys and I will leave.
Right? And it's not like they're a bunch of alcoholics or anything. I'm just saying like, I always want the right to do that, even though people sometimes think it's strange.
And I don't care, because that's my preference. And it's my job to have that self consideration, and give myself the choice to do that.
Yeah, I love that self consideration. And I think so many of us can look at others first.
And so first, what I'm hearing you saying is just identifying what are our truth, what is our truth, preferences, deal breakers, and then to be able to communicate that. Is there a template or a script or something that we can use to more easily communicate our boundaries once we're clear? Yes.
I think that first of all, you have to change. We go in before we go out always the way that I teach it, right? Because we've got to get clear that A, we have a right to do it, that B, you're not

doing anything bad to someone else by having your own preferences and by having your own

back.

And I think that I've walked you through a process in the book where you identify what

is the problem, right?

Or what is maybe you have something that you'd like to happen or something you would like

to stop happening.

And then we move through who are you talking to? Knowing them, like we know the players in our life. Are they a morning person? If they are great, you can have a conversation then.
If they're not, let's not choose 6am to have the conversation where we set ourselves up for success. Come up with a script.
I'd like to make a simple request that if you're going to be more than 10 minutes late, you let me know. Because when you say you're going to be on time and you're 30 minutes late, then it ends up ruining our evening because I'm aggravated and now I'm all pissy and I don't enjoy dinner.
Or whatever that is that you want to say. So I think that the language itself, there are so many different ways.
I give you a million different sentence stems in the book. But I love the I'd like to make a simple request, which is not mine.
That's from nonviolent communication, Marshall Rosenberg, because you know what? Anything is a simple request. They can do it.
They can not do it. But I feel, some people don't like that as, as an intro.
I like it, but you can also say, oh, Hey, I was thinking about what happened last Wednesday in the meeting and I wanted to bring something to your attention. You being on your phone while I was giving my presentation was distracting.
So I'd just like to make a simple request that the next time I'm presenting that you please don't do that. Imagine you're fully embodying the confidence you've always known was within you and you're effortlessly attracting dream clients, watching the impact that you're making in the world.
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I love that. I like this simple request because it's directive.
It's you taking responsibility for what you want. I think with boundaries, I like to share what I will do if they do something versus trying to control their behavior.
For example, if you're yelling, I'm going to remove myself to take care of myself. It's not a threat, but it's just letting them know how I'll take care of myself if they behave this way.
Yes. And then we, cause we're not trying to control and manipulate others, but with your request, then they know how to best love us or show up for us if they so choose.
Yes. So that feels clean to me.
I like that. I love it.
I just interviewed Gay Hendricks for a summit that I'm doing. We had him on the podcast.
And look how he's the cutest. Lovely.
Love. Yeah.
And I said, just saying, is there something that he does with his wife?

And he said, I asked her, how could I love you better today? Right? So again, like you're saying,

the communication, right? You are letting someone know how they can love you better

by telling the truth about the way that you feel. And you're talking about adding a consequence.

And the next step is to get the results. right you are letting someone know how they can love you better by telling the truth about the way that you feel and you're talking about adding a consequence and so a lot of times if it's a like i break people into are you a boundary first timer are you a repeat offender or are you a boundary destroyer these are our choices a lot of times we have boundary first timers that we think oh they're kind of kind of a boundary bully.
I'll say to my client, I mean, they might be, but have you actually in words made your simple request? Have you let them know? Have you set a limit? Have you said no? And if the answer is no, then I'm going to say, hey, we can't say that they're a boundary bully just yet. Give them a chance.
They may, you would be shocked at how people go, thank you for telling me that. Wow, that's amazing.
So if you have set the boundary and the person continues to be late and doesn't let you know, then there is, as you said, there's a consequence that we set. Because if eventually we don't set a consequence, what is the impetus for change? And it's not to spite the other person it's exactly right it is what are you willing to tolerate if you continue to be 30 minutes late and not let me know i'm going to heat up my own food your food will be in the refrigerator and we will not be eating together it's clear and that's because i feel upset dis, ignored, marginalized by the fact that we've had this conversation five times.
I mean, personally, P.S., in my life, I would never deal with that shit for five times. Just, you know, like...
Yeah, you're out. Yeah.
It would be, you know, there's maybe two times. But again, my husband and I have had a lot of therapy, so I wouldn't need to do that.
But I wouldn't even have the patience to do that. But if you're in a long-term relationship, you've been doing this boundary dance for decades, it's definitely going to take a minute.
Yeah. And the person's going to notice.
Yeah. You start doing a different dance, they're going to be like, what's going on? This used to be okay with you.
Why now? And it's okay to say, hey, you're right. I used to be willing to do all the laundry, and I am not anymore.
So I'd like to talk about more equitable way of us figuring out this getting done where it's not all on me because I'm finding myself feeling resentful, and I don't want to because I love you, and I don't think it's good for our relationship. That's beautiful.
It's also letting them in on your inner experience. So that creates more intimacy.
And it's like, how do we work together? These are my needs. And I think even just reestablishing boundaries can be a lot harder because you've been set in those ways.
And so just to offer people grace while they're trying new boundaries with people, sometimes it's rocky in the beginning, but then it gets easier. It's a new template.
I would say that for me, I am really good with boundaries in my personal life and with work, there's a lot of opportunity. As I'm listening to you, I'm like, oh, I could have more clear direction with my team about what I'm looking for and not looking for.
So thank you for these nuggets. And I can see that, you know, both of us being therapists, everything goes back to childhood.
It's just, it's like, what were the imprints of our relating, you know, our family system, our parents, our caregivers. And so for me, what I've looked at with team, where my boundary stuff comes up is as a kid, I self-appointed myself as the glue to hold everyone together.
I was the youngest. I was like, I'll help.
Really? Yes. And we both became therapists.
Yeah. And both married people.
You're like, we have a lot in common, my friend. A lot in common.
Yeah. And so I was like, I'll hold everyone together.
And so then I started doing that on my team. And with a large team, it's highlighted where there's opportunities for me to let go and to let people self-resource and for me to clean up some of my boundaries and maybe codependency.
We'll see where we go in the conversation. Oh, I definitely think that's where we're going.
Yeah. But I'm curious if you could kind of help people see the connection between childhood and some of the boundaries that play out.
Oh, yeah. In the book, I lay it out for you.
We all have what I call a boundary blueprint. It's a downloaded boundary blueprint that is made up of your childhood experiences.
But it's also the country that you grew up in, the culture, the family system. What is your lineup like? Are you the youngest or are you the oldest? All of these things come together and sort of collate to create your boundary blueprint, which is, this is the way you're supposed to relate to boundaries.
This is the way you relate to other people. And we learn that.
You also have different family systems. Some are enmeshed.
Some are chaotic. Some are organizing around a narcissist or an addict.

And that impacts what boundaries we think we are allowed to have and how important our needs are.

Because if you grew up in a chaotic system where, you know, in healthy family systems,

as you know, it is children focused, not children obsessed.

And there is definitely an importance of clarification there, but it's child focused. It's the school year.
Okay. So then we eat dinner a little earlier and we make sure the kids get to school and you have the things that you need.
And we're not having like a family party at 10 PM on a Tuesday when you're in school and you're in fifth grade. Like being family, being kid-focused means you're important and we organize around your needs.
When you have a dysfunctional family system, whether it's an addiction, mental health challenges, there's lots of different things that create someone else as the identified person, identified patient sometimes, but that the entire system is organizing around. So what did children learn there? Don't have any needs because the adults are so stressed.
They cannot do it. Make mom and dad happy, or whoever the caregivers are, whatever way that means.
That might be making a drink for them. And you're seven.
That might mean being parentified. Probably definitely means being parentified, at least emotionally, right? We have different ways of being parentified.
Could just be emotional, but also could be structural, physical, where you're actually making dinner. I've had clients who are making dinner.
They're seven years old. They're making dinner for the five-year-old.
You're like, you're using an oven? You were seven? Oh my God. But it's amazing how capable kids can be, but how adaptive.
And so what we find is those adaptive things that we learn in childhood become maladaptive in adulthood. So we couldn't draw boundaries because we were the ultimate captive audience in childhood because what are you, hitching a ride to like your own house? You're not.
Am I renting my own apartment or getting a room you're not you're there and you know it right nobody needs to send a kid an inner office memo about how to survive we just those survival instincts kick in but then what i see in my therapy practice is that i'm helping clients unlearn all of this over functioning over responsibility, over-responsibility, overdoing, overly independent.

There's a hyper-independence that comes. And that is a lot in the next book, which we're also going to talk about in too much, what high-functioning codependency looks like.
And those homes breed

high-functioning codependency as well. Yeah.
And it has a range, right? Because there are

subtle ways that these play out and more obvious. And so I think the subtlety is maybe where most people aren't seeing it.
And I think what you're probably highlighting in the book and in some of the work that you're doing so that it doesn't have to be big T trauma or really highly dysfunctional, but there's still dysfunction in it and some patterns that we may be asleep to. Are there some common patterns that are, we wouldn't think to recognize that are playing out maybe at work or in relationships? Oh yeah.
For high functioning codependence, over functioning. And what, like, give me an example.
Just doing more than is necessary. Like thinking of everything, right? Doing all the emotional labor, keeping the house running, all the things.
It's like a perfect example. I mean, I'm in recovery because we're not going to ever be cured from high functioning codependency, but you can be in recovery.
I'm in LA, my husband's home, and I'm still texting with like doggy daycare. And he's like, babe, I could do it.
Be where you are, honey. See, and I was like, I'm sorry, I will stop micromanaging from afar.
But you know, it's a healthy enough relationship where I can see that. But what I see in high functioning codependence is that there is auto advice giving.
We can't wait to fix you. We can't wait to help you.
We can't wait to help you get out of pain. We can't wait.
So you can come with a problem. You may not even be asking for advice.
I'm still going to want to give it to you if I'm an HFC. We are auto-accommodators.
We are very, and how this is different than codependency, sort of melody-baity, codependent, no more. You've got to be involved with an addict.
You must be enabling an addict. My clients did not see themselves in codependent behaviors because it wasn't that.
And I'm like, oh, they don't know what codependency is because it doesn't have to be that to be codependent, to be codependency. And I would say it like, hey, what I'm noticing, this is a codependent relational pattern.
And they'd be like, no way, man, wrong. You are incorrect because everyone depends on me, Tara.
I'm making all the money, making all the decisions, managing everything. So I'm not dependent on squat.
And I'm like, that does not mean you're not codependent.

Right? You're codependent in this overt and covert desire to control the outcomes of others.

Because it makes us feel in control and we feel out of control if there's a problem,

if something is happening. And this is in the world too.
You know, I give an example in the book

of, this was only probably five years ago. I was at my hair salon in the city and I was

Thank you. something is happening.
And this is in the world too. You know, I give an example in the book of, this was only probably five years ago.
I was at my hair salon in the city and I was getting a mask on my hair, but it was a Saturday, which I'm usually not there on Saturday because it's so busy. And now I'm laying in a sink with a mask for 10 minutes.
And the longer I lay there, the longer the line is getting, the more anxious I'm becoming like, why am I taking up this sink? I should just tell the girl that I don't need the sink, that I could sit somewhere else, right? Hello? What are you doing? So I flag her over. I'm like, hey, I could move.
She's like, yeah, no shit, lady. We're good.
Thanks. Okay.
After that, I was like, oh my God, Terry, after all these years and all this recovery and all this healing, you could be listening to a podcast, meditating, talking to your mom. You could be resting your brain, but instead you're worrying about the sink flow at the salon because you're so dialed into your environment.
And I see this as something that HFCs have in common, where we're very aware. Someone on a plane, somebody needs to sit somewhere and I can move.
I can't wait to volunteer. Like I'm going to move, I'm going to do that.
But over-functioning, over-feeling. A lot of us are empaths.
We are feeling all the pain, but we're also, we can become boundary tramplers too. Because in our auto-advice giving and in our, and most of us are very high-functioning.

This is, this is here in last the rub with high-functioning codependency, is that the more competent you are, the less codependency looks like codependency, but it's still codependency.

And we're still suffering.

Nobody's checking on you, babe. Nobody's like, gee, I hope she's okay.
Are they? Probably not. Because you're always okay.
They're coming to you for your grade A advice. They're coming to you because you have it together.
Nobody's checking on me. I mean, now they are because I'm healthier in my life.
But generally speaking, people don't, when you're very high functioning, people don't see that you're suffering and you don't even honor your own suffering. So all of the self-consideration, you know, changing these behaviors is what this, the new book is all about, is understanding that when we behave in this way, when we're managing the crap out of our relationships and our businesses and all the things that we do, so much of the time we are limiting the intimacy in our relationships.
Because what can you do instead? Instead of auto-advice giving, if you find yourself to be that, anyone listening, ask expansive questions. Your friend comes and says, I don't know what to do.

I feel like I should quit my job.

You don't go quit your job.

You go, all right, well, tell me more.

What does your gut say?

Because nobody knows better than you what you should do in this moment.

But I'm here.

I'm in the foxhole with you.

You're not a problem for me to fix, which is what most of us are doing as HFCs.

I do not like a problem. I cannot wait to fix it so that I can go back to having peace.
You want to say something? Yeah. I just have so many insights coming together.
The boundaries and the HFC, the highly functioning codependent, those make sense together. And I'm even seeing my childhood because there's a hyper self-reliance of like, oh, I didn't have, I didn't really, for me, I self-appointed.
I'll just be microscopic and transparent as you're speaking. I'm thinking about my childhood to help draw a connection for people so they can be thinking about this themselves.
I'm thinking about, I felt like I had to make sure my parents were okay. Everyone was emotionally okay.
And then how I've done that with my team. And sometimes abandon my own checking in with my own desires and needs to caretake and being extremely capable and willing.
And I have a pretty large capacity, and then there's a point where it's a habit rather than a choice at some point.

So I really appreciate the habit interrupts and to check in with myself around what's my truth, what do I want? And, you know, the mind can try to find and solve problems. So it makes everything you're sharing makes a lot of sense to me.
I'm just having ahas as you're speaking. Yes.
I think that the self-abandonment aspect of being an HFC or of having disordered boundaries or both is something that we cannot minimize because even though we can do it all ourselves, it doesn't mean we should. The hyper-independence that goes into adulthood and how, you know, at the end of the book, I talk about like the last couple of chapters.
It's like surrender, allow, let other people add value to your life. Let more other people, because some of us will, you know, it's easy for me to do it in my marriage.
Now we've been together 27 years. It's like, he's so super trustworthy.
I know he's going to show up. But there still is a reticence to be a burden on others.
And that also limits the intimacy in our relationships because we can't wait to do for you. But then when someone wants to do for us, we're like, I got it.
I got it. I got it.
I'm good. I got it.
And there's really, so what I'm teaching you in the end of the book is to learn to allow. And the peace and the joy and the deepening of the intimacy, but it's just the enjoyment of life when we're not always like on this clock and we're not always rushing.
And we feel the over-responsibility for so many people on our team and our friends and our families and the thing that shifted this for me and how I even wrote this book and how I even this concept became so crystallized in my mind was this very painful experience I had in my 20s where one of my sisters was in a very bad situation domestically. She was living with a guy who was doing crack in the woods in upstate New York without running water, with no electricity.
She was actively alcoholic at the time. He was abusive to her.
It was just a total shit show. And I couldn't deal.
I couldn't stop trying to throw money at it and therapy and books. And I was saying to my therapist, I remember bawling my eyes out with Bev and I was like, what am I going to do? And she was like, Tara, let me ask you something.
What makes you think you know what Jenna needs to learn in this life? And I was like, yeah, man, but can we agree that she doesn't need to learn it with a crackhead in the fucking woods? Can we agree on that?

She was like, no, because I'm not God. I don't know.
But do you know what's going on for you? And I was like, clearly no, so clue me in. And she was like, you've worked really hard to create a harmonious life for yourself.
Years of therapy. and your sister's dumpster fire of a life is really fucking with your peace and you're really sad about that and you would like your peace to come back.
So you want that to be tied up in a bow so that you can go back because you are so codependently attached to your sister. And I was like, okay, well, I didn't even know I had a choice.
So what else? What else? You're telling me there's a choice? I could do something else. And she was like, yes, it's called boundaries.
So this was the beginning of me really starting to understand the power of this. And she said, it doesn't help you or her for you to let her talk about this abusive guy all the time.
Like it really doesn't. And I was like, really? Because I feel like I have to.
She's like, you don't. So I had the conversation and said, hey, this is too painful.
I love you. And when you're ready to get out of this horrible situation, I'm still your person no matter what.
I talked to her probably twice in like the next nine months. Then my phone rings and she was like, are you still my person? I was like, I'm getting in my car right now.
She got sober. She went back to school.
And here's the most important part of this. It wasn't because I was the hero of her story.
Jenna is the hero of her story now. I get to applaud her.
She gets the self-esteem that comes from figuring out yourself and not feeling like a loser because someone else always has to save you. And being in that position is so when you think about what we're really doing, and this part was painful for me to realize, what am I really doing when I can't wait to jump in and fix your problem is I am centering your problem on me.
I become the center because now I am the solution. And the truth is, I don't know, even though I have great ideas.
But ultimately, it's your life. It's your journey.
It was Jenna's life and her journey. I did not know how long she would need to be there until she could find it within herself to get up, get out, and want to get sober and all those things.
That was for her. So it's really presumptuous of us to be like, I actually am the boss of you, you, you, you, and all of you.
Let me try to control all of you so then I feel okay. And that I think is innocent when we're kids.
And I love that you're highlighting and I can see so much of my own dynamics and what you're sharing. I think probably because we have similar patterns in life background.
And I think some of what I've tracked inside of myself, I did a ceremony with my dad. And in the ceremony, it was within the last few months.
And within the ceremony, I kept having to ask him for things. And it was so hard for me to ask him for things because the voice in my head was like, you can do that yourself.
He's in his seventies. Don't be a burden.
And I had to cry. That was my healing of not feeling like a burden, that it wasn't a weight on others.
I'm like, oh, no wonder that's played out with my team. And I'm about using all of it for healing and for awakening.
So thank God that that pulls me through. Because if I don't resolve that inside of me, it doesn't matter how well I delegate, the patterns will still keep recreating at work or in any other relationship.
And so I love that we align so much around the inside out. So yes, heal those dynamics within me and learn to delegate and be really clear with my non-negotiables and what I need and have that self-awareness and self-respect to speak that and find a win-win in any relationship.
Yes. And some of what I've discovered is it's also part of my lineage, the over-responsibility.
I can see it come through my dad's lineage. You as well? Yeah.
Yeah. Share more.
Do you feel like this is partly what we're playing out in terms of like what we came here to learn, or it's just, if we're not conscious of it, it just becomes what we inherit? I think it's a combination, right? Because really it's for me, the lens is so psychotherapeutic that we just see, we repeat what we do not repair. Right? And so it's like, this is so familiar.
It is unconscious. It is in there.
It's like, why do we attract similar people? Even if we say, I'm never going to have a relationship like my parents. And then you go and do it unless there's an intervention.
Unless we learn a new way of doing it. So I see in my, you know, I am my mother's daughter.
My mother was the hero child in her family system. And she definitely expected me to do it too.
It isn't like it's free being the hero child. P.S.
people, if you are not it and you think it's great, it's not. It has the cost just like any other role in the family system.
But I think part of what we're missing and why this work is so important is because we deserve to be known. We deserve to actually be intimately known.
And if we live our lives as high functioning codependents, we'll only be so known, right? So what you think, how you feel, what you want, it needs to matter to you and it needs to matter to you more than what anyone else wants, thinks, or feels. People think that's selfish, but it's not.
Now, it doesn't mean you can't compromise. This is called having relationships.
Of course you can compromise. You can choose to do something that you don't feel like doing because you love your partner, because your best friend really wants you to.
We can choose, but not if we're doing it compulsively, because people will always push back online and be like, well, I'm just nice. I'm just being nice.
I'm like, dude, if you can't not do it, you're not being nice. That is a compulsion.
So nobody wants to be managed by you and your compulsion. It doesn't feel good because you will be resentful.
And I think one thing we haven't really talked about with this is that the cost, not being known as a massive cost, obviously, but how resentful and bitter do we become? Because when we are over-functioning, over-giving, over-feeling, feeling overly responsible in our relationships, that is a one-way ticket to bitter land. Like there's literally no other stops on that train.
Sooner or later, you're going to be like, after all I've done for them, you can't help but become a martyr. Because it's not healthy to be doing so much for other people.
Not to mention thinking, how does it impact them, especially children? Right? What are you saying? I'm the only capable person. And if you think that, which, you know, I can't say that I haven't had that thought in my life.
Which also doesn't serve them in the long run, which is what I heard you saying.

Especially children.

When we over-function for them and don't let them experience the consequences for their actions,

your kid is saying, I feel like a loser.

And you're like, and I agree.

Instead of saying, you can handle this.

You created this mess.

I will go with you to the principal's

office but it's you are going and you're telling them that you cheated this is what happened it's the truth we'll handle it together but you're handling it or whatever right like i feel like it's so important to not infantilize children and then all the adults in our life as well. This hyper-helping desire,

right, of I just want to help all the people. I actually opened too much the book itself with a story of when I was probably 22.
I used to go out to Long Island from Manhattan where I was living to see my therapist. Like a normal person would just get a new therapist, not me.
I took an hour long train ride and then walked a mile to her house.

Oh, my.

Because. therapist.
Like a normal person would just get a new therapist. Not me.
I took an hour long train ride and then walked a mile to her house. Oh my.
Because I'm insane. Anyway, on the way back, I see this kid, 1030 at night.
Where are you going? Skinny 19 year old boy. I want to know.
So I asked, where are you going? Oh yeah. I actually got hired to do a job.
I'm supposed to be driving this car back to Indiana. And then I just called them from the payphone because it was late 80s people.
And they canceled the gig. I was like, so where are you going? He's like, I'm going to go sleep in the station.
I go,

what station? He goes, Penn Station. I go, no, you're not.
You've been to Penn Station. You're

going to die. Like you literally can't sleep in Penn Station.
It's so dangerous. He's like, well,

I don't know anybody in New York. I was like, yeah, you do.
You know me. I took this kid to my apartment and not like that.
Like I took him home. I took him home because I was afraid something was going to happen to him.
I had a female roommate, didn't even call her. And now listen, his name was Billy.
You might not have done the Billy thing the way exactly the way that I did it, but all of us have Billys in our life. People that we feel overly responsible for, that we've done extreme things for others.
And again, someone would say, that's being nice. You know what? Giving Billy some money or saying, hey man, I would not sleep in Penn Station.
That's being nice, right? Me taking a perfect stranger back to my studio apartment on 102nd Street between West End and Riverside. I don't know, man.
I don't think that's nice. I think that's compulsive.
And I just was blessed that nothing terrible happened. He left without incident.
But I'm not alone in this. And I see this with high functioning codependency, that we come in all flavors, right? So you can be an introvert or an extrovert and be doing this.
But I also see a lot of high functioning codependents as nurses and therapists and doctors and coaches, massage therapists. We just want to do it.

And we can still do it, right?

So here's the thing.

Your love of helping others is so beautiful, and so is mine.

But when we actually get into recovery from high-functioning codependency,

we're so much more effective, so much more successful, so much more joyful, relaxed, expanded, clear, clean, truthful, and authentic, really authentic in ourselves. It's just so much better.
So it's just more of the good and less of the bad, which is the resentment and the feeling taken advantage of and the feeling exhausted. And then I see the physical burnout that comes into my office.
People are walking with autoimmune disorders left and right, insomnia. Then you got perimenopause.
Then you got menopause. People are pissed from doing too much for too many for too long.
Yeah, it's a big one. I'm hearing the over-responsible, self-reliant, and over-giving, trying to control, compulsive to help, all of these things.
I think a lot of people, and women in particular, can relate to. So what are some of the things we can do once we become aware to start breaking the cycle? Well, get excited.
Because once you're aware, what's coming down the pike for you is so much more satisfying than what you've been living. So yay, you.
So you become aware, first things first, you're first going to do a resentment inventory. So we can just see where are you really over-functioning? It's like a little GPS for us to go, I'm really resentful of my sister.

I do most of the work to keep our relationship going, or I pay more of the rent, or whatever

it is.

And we get a list going of like, where are our biggest resentments?

And then we figure out, how are we participating in them?

So much of the time, we're just not saying how we feel.

So much of the time, we are colluding unwittingly.

I mean, it's knowingly, but like we're not trying to collude, but we are with the bad behavior because we're afraid to say no. We're afraid to be rejected.
We're afraid they're going to be mad. We don't want to rock the boat.
We don't want them to be pissed. But if you are embracing this new day and this new way and this surrender and this more expansion of your life, you have to realize you are not fragile and neither are most of your relationships.
And if your relationship blows up fully because you set a boundary or assert a desire, a need, or a want, that relationship was built on your self-abandonment. So that's good.
That's good. Yes.
Yeah. And you don't want to nurture those relationships if they're benefiting from you abandoning yourself.
That's not sustainable. And it's not very loving, right? We want people who want us to be healthy, right we want people who want us to be healthy.
We want people who want us to be healthy. And yet we have taught people how to treat us.
So I want you to think about getting into recovery from HFC. You can also join a community that I've created for this.
There's so much going on where I will be leading people through this process because it can feel overwhelming. But just know that you can do it and that you are not responsible for so much that you think you are.
It's possible to have a more equitable situation in your home life. If you're doing all the emotional labor, right, the invisible and mostly unpaid labor that women in particular do to just keep the ship of our lives floating, whether it's making sure the toilet paper's there, whether it's

getting the end of the year, you know, teacher gift for the kids, whatever it is, where are they

going to camp next summer? Like who's thinking about that? Who's thinking about all the things?

So a lot of times that also requires re-looking at, and I always encourage my therapy clients

Thank you. Like who's thinking about that? Who's thinking about all the things? So a lot of times that also requires re-looking at, and I always encourage my therapy clients to write down every single thing that you're doing.
Write down what your partner is doing. And then before we can change or want something to be better, we need to be willing to give up control.
So we can't hand it off and then be super critical of the way that they do it. And this is part of the problem when you're highly functional.
This is big. Talk more about this.
Yes. Well, what I find with my clients who are like, okay, so I gave them this many things to do.
So then they went and told me that they bought the thing and then they came back to me. I'm like, no, man.
You're still micromanaging. Right.
You're not holding the list. They do their list how they do it as long as, you know, we have agreements, right? As long as it gets done by this point or whatever it is.
You can't. I remember saying to my mother years ago, I was living with a boyfriend and I was like, this guy doesn't know how to vacuum and doesn't know how to brown garlic.
What the hell is wrong with and she was like terry just p.s your father never touched a vacuum or a pan so let's start with hi i'm glad your boyfriend is helpful and she's like and learn from me ter if everything needs to be done your way you'll end up like me doing it all alone oh wow i you jenny cole for that good advice she's like just say thanks it doesn't have to be perfect yeah you're collaborating that's what's important i was like wow so we can't be a perfectionist when it comes to the list and if you would just rather do it yourself it's easier for you to do it yourself. You need to consciously and actively accept and take radical responsibility for that choice.
Because I think you're wrong. Because it's not.
Because you cannot do this at this rate forever. You can't.
The women come into my office, they've got autoimmune disorders, TMJ, dealing with perimenopause and menopause and their symptoms are so amplified because they have so much cortisol and adrenaline flowing through their system because they're so stressed and so exhausted. And you can't do it forever.
And let's really think about self-consideration Because in this book, I talk about self-consideration in a different way because I really feel like self-love is just so played and people don't even know what it means. It's so like if you could just love yourself more, people are like, what does that mean? But self-consideration is a whole thing.
That is how we live. I want your self-consideration to be at the top of your list, not fixing someone else's problem at the top of your list, not making sure that no one else has a problem, because we also do things like anticipatory planning when we know we're going to be with certain people.
We're going to make sure that they have everything they need. We're going to make sure that this one doesn't sit next to this one who doesn't like that one.
We have, as HFCs, we have a stadium worth of data in our minds about the people that we love. Do people have that much data about us? Hell no.
Because we go, oh, it's fine. It's cool.
I'm good. Don't worry about it.
Hey, it's fine. Oh, wait, the car? You need the car? I'll Uber.
No worries. We're just all like whatever we need to do to fix it.
But there's a cost for doing that. So self-consideration means we slow down, slow everything down.
We do not need to be living at a breakneck speed. There is end game there's there's no prize for doing it that way relax have a daily routine and actually i'm giving you a gift uh terry cole dot com forward slash hfc and it's like an hfc toolkit like what are ways that we can start to be better to our nervous system to calibrate the day in a way that is for us.
Meditation, being in nature if you can, depending on where you live, slowing down. Do not have yourself scheduled within an inch of your life.
You're going to wake up and be like, where'd my life go? But I was on time for all those things that half of that shit I shouldn't even have been doing. You know? Like prioritize.
How do you feel? Stop putting off the vacation. Stop not eating the dessert.
Stop depriving yourself of what you need to really be present for the people in your life because getting it all done, nobody's throwing us a parade, right? We have to choose how do we want to live? And I was just thinking about it's been praised to care for others. Others have benefited from that.
So no wonder it's so common. And one of the things that was really helpful for me, and maybe there's still more work to do with it around when I was a kid, I didn't see my mom as strong enough on her own and so emotionally.
And so I thought I needed to support her some of the over-responsibility. And so I did a meditation where I got to see her connected to her own source energy, connected to her own divinity, and then just to wrap her in a bubble of light and to see that she always had her own inner resources.
But from my younger self point of view, not from my adult conscious mind to really let my little one be like, she's good. She's whole.
She has everything she needs, whether she sees it or not, whether you see it or not. And I love that that is actually more of service in a lot of the examples that you're sharing.
Like we want to serve, but helping people wake up to their own power, not trying to save them or rob them from their own power. And autonomy.
And autonomy. They have a right to be sovereign.
They do. And there's something so beautiful when you start to learn to let the chips fall where they may when they're near you're not your freaking trips it makes life so much better yeah and you're so much more resilient in the way of like what you can handle you know we feel like oh i don't want it to be uncomfortable so what if you're you're going to change your life, babe, as we know, it's going to be uncomfortable.
And you're going to be fine. Yeah.
But you'll be so much more than fine. And these micro tests in our lives.
I know I took my team to Bali in May. Oh, my God.
And it was fun. And we were all at this table.
And I needed water. And I normally jump.
I'm quick, and I jump up to get it and serve everybody else. And I realized, okay, that's, I'm in a meeting.
Let me just stop for a moment. And I let them, I just took a pause when I would normally jump in and they actually came and got me water.
And I'm like, oh, I think there's more support available for me, but because I'm such a doer, I jump in to help or get everybody else water. I wasn't realizing that it's available.
And so I think it's just these habits that are self-appointed that I like these pattern interrupts that we get to pause and then really just discover what other supports are here. I'm going to dive more.
I mean, I already knew when I was, you know, your boundaries boss book and then doing the research for this podcast, there's so much juice and nuggets and wisdom that are going to serve me and I know my audience. So thank you for doing this work.
Everything you're saying, I'm like, yep. It's like delegate it, but then find the ways that they didn't do it right.
It's like, okay, celebrate that I'm delegating, that they're trying. I could be more clear and I can let go.
And as I let go, I get to receive more. There's more nourishment that I'm included in the nourishment.
So it's not giving with sacrifice. It's giving wholeness.
And to know that, to know that in your head, heart, and then live that in your gut. It's like a deeper integration of the learnings.
Is there anything, just in closing, that you want to share for highly functioning codependents? Any wisdom that feels like you want to leave them in parting? Well, I see you, and you're amazing. You're so smart, ambitious, loving, empathic, beautiful.
and if you walk, let me walk you through this process of getting into recovery. There is so much more joy for you and abundance and success on the other side.
And I want that so much for you. So all of your great qualities of being an HFC, when you get into recovery, we just are going to lead the dysfunctional ones and we're going to amplify the ones that are already your superpower.
It's so good. I feel like you're a future version of me talking to myself.
This was divinely orchestrated to have you here. Thank you for your wisdom.
I know people are going to want to stay connected. Tell us more about how to stay connected to your work.
Well, you can follow me on Instagram, Terry Cole. I have a podcast, The Terry Cole Show.
You can find the book and all the bonuses and join my community at terrycole.com forward slash HFC. Amazing.
We'll put it in the show notes. Thank you for being here, Terry.
Thanks for having me. So good.
Thank you so much for doing this work that changes the world, starting with yourself. It truly does make a difference.
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