Discover Your Origin Story: How These 5 Wounds Shape Your Relationships with Vienna Pharaon | EP 47

We all have wounds. We all rub up against certain things.
And sometimes they are the big, obvious things that really stand out to us. And then other times it's really in the subtleties of our human experience.
I think there are some things on Instagram that can get really popular when there's a lot of blame. And I think that's a state of consciousness and it's okay to be angry.
It's okay. There's space for that part of you.
And we don't want to live there. We don't want to live in victimization because that actually doesn't move us forward.
That doesn't help because we can't change other people. Here's the thing about relationships.
You know, that's like this tight rope. It's this fine line of, okay, the activations are here.
Are we going to be able to move through this together and actually move towards healing?

Or is this just going to be a dynamic that winds up recreating the pain and the hurt and the harm

over and over and over again? And it's something that just sort of expands the wound more.

If we are in blame, we can't choose. Our work when we're talking about healing is going from survival to choice.
Welcome. I'm Alyssa Nobriga, your host of the Healing and Human Potential podcast, a place for you to discover the multidimensionality of what it means to be human.
We'll be exploring the intersection between ancient wisdom and modern everyday life, really diving deep into the art of human potential through the lens of psychology, spirituality, and coaching. Let's let the magic unfold.
Today we're diving into all things relationships, whether it be with your family or your partner, and we're going to talk about what your origin story is.

There's five of them and how understanding what yours are can elevate every other aspect of your life. We're also going to unpack different attachment styles, when to go to therapy, and some of the most commonly overlooked concerns that couples have.
What are those red flags? I'm sitting down with Vienna Farron, who is a fellow marriage and family therapist. She's also an author and New York's most sought after couples therapist.
We are talking about all things having a lasting and fulfilling relationship. I hope you enjoy it.
Yay. I'm so happy that you're here.
I think this is going to be a beautiful conversation. Both of us being marriage and family therapists, I think it's going to be fascinating because I don't think we both take the traditional route.
We have a little bit more of a holistic approach. And I've been reading your book, which is phenomenal origins of you.
And I just want to say, you know, I'm a, you're welcome. And, and it's, I want to make sure that I share with my audience, like going to the root of the things that are causing them issues rather than just snipping all of the leaves on the tree.

It's like, let's go to the root. So we'll talk a little bit about it, but I know the book is really about helping break family patterns.
And as you do that, it enhances every other area of your life. And so help us get on the same wavelength, like talk to us about the five origin core wounds.
Talk to us about what they are and how people can kind of identify what theirs might be. Sure.
Yeah. I think it's important to note that if there's unwanted patterns in your adult life today that you can't shake, no matter how hard you've tried, no matter how many things you've thrown at it, right.
It's not because you're lazy. It's not because you're a dummy.
It's not any of those things, right? It's, it is pointing back to something that predates this moment that wants our attention. And I think that can feel really frustrating for people sometimes, especially when they come into therapy, right? It's like, okay, here's the presenting issue.
Here's the thing that I'm walking in with and I'm coming in with, and I want us to talk about this thing and then enter Vienna. And I'm like, let's talk about your childhood, right? And we get the eye rolls and they're like, Oh, come on.
And really do we need to go back there? And so I just want to set the tone for us in this conversation because our job is, we're not trying to have you go back so far and stay there and get stuck there, right? This is an invitation for us to enter in, put our feet in, actually acknowledge and honor some of the experiences that we went through. And then our goal is to then find the path forward, right? Is to then create change.
So just that reminder that ultimately, yes, we are trying to create change. But when you've been trying to create change unsuccessfully, which I think so many of our hands can go up where we're like, I've done this and I've done that and I've made the promises and I like, you know, I'm right at the edge, but it's still right.
Bless everyone, but it still doesn't work. Right.
That to me is, that's just pain's way of grabbing for our attention. You know, that's just pain's way of saying, Hey, you're trying to white knuckle your way through, or you're just trying to bypass something.
And I just need you to turn around for a little bit. So yes, my work is deeply rooted in understanding the family systems that we grew up in.
Obviously, I understand that there's other influences that impact our lives and shape many things. But I always start with understanding the family of origin that we grew up in.
And for some of us, that might be one family system. And for others of us, it might be multifamily systems, which was true for me.
My parents went through a nine-year divorce process and I had to learn how to operate in two different family systems where there were some different rules and some different expectations and certain different wounds playing out. So I know your initial question is, okay, like let's dive into these five origin wounds, which, okay, I'm going to just label them for us and then we can go into them a little bit further.
So I just, I think like it offers such a compassionate perspective to understand that this predates you. This is part of your lineage.
And so I think that offers some level of compassion, but then it also offers different tools to really get to the root. So I just want to, I want to highlight that, but yes, let's, let's dive in.
Totally. Right.
Cause it's like, and, and part of this work is finding that intersection of compassion and grace for ourselves and for others while also holding the line of responsibility, ownership, and accountability. I always say like context helps make things make a lot of sense, but it's also not an excuse maker, right? So it's like our behavior makes sense in context always.
And so does theirs, whoever there is, right? So if it's a parent or a sibling or a grandparent or whomever or step parent, right? It's like their behavior makes sense in context as well. But that doesn't mean that we say, ah, okay, well, because the story makes sense, then fine, I'm okay with it.
And so we're finding that balance for ourselves and for them as we do this work. The five origin wounds are the worthiness wound, prioritization wound, belonging wound, trust wound, and safety wound.
And when I sat down to write the origins of you and I've worked, you know, this I've worked with individuals, couples, and families for over 25,000 hours of direct clinical work. So I have seen, I've seen a lot of people and I've worked with a lot of folks.
And when I sat down, it was like scribbling out, okay, what are just like the different experiences that we all have with pain? I felt like these really encompassed the human experience. These are my words.
This is the framework. If there's a different word that works better for you, awesome.
Go with it. But it felt like, okay, we are going to either rub up against questioning our worthiness, questioning our sense of belonging in the world or within our family system, questioning our sense of prioritization, right? Like, am I, am I important to the important people in my life? Questioning a sense of trust and questioning a sense of safety.
For some people, they might think, oh shoot, I've got all five. Which, yeah, right.
Sometimes people like slide into my DMs and they're like, is it possible to have all five? It is possible to have all five. And it's also possible that you resonate with one or two of them, um, in a really sort of significant way.
If that is true, that doesn't excuse you though, from reading the other chapters, because my invitation is that likely you care about and love someone who has all of these wounds, right? Meaning like, maybe it's your partner, even if you don't relate to a belonging wound, right? Who has a, who has a belonging wound. And so this idea of us reading this book, yes, for our own healing journey, but also reading this book and thinking about the important people in our lives and their stories is a very important part of this.
I use the word wounds though, Alyssa, because I think a lot of times in these conversations, we're talking about trauma. It's a big word that is out there.
And what I've noticed is that when we use the word trauma, a lot of times people will excuse themselves from

the conversation. Oh, I didn't have a traumatic childhood.
And so I don't belong here. Right.
Or like, Oh, somebody else I know has had it way worse than I do. And so, yeah, like I I'm, I'm not part of this, this conversation anymore.
And I think wounds for me was such an important word to use because it was something that really signified. We all have wounds.
We all rub up against certain things. And sometimes they are the big obvious things that really stand out to us.
And then other times it's really in the subtleties of our human experience. And we might have parents who really did do their best and their intentions were great.
And we might still have questioned something about ourselves or something about the world at large. And so that too feels important to me.
Yeah. And what I like about going to the root, right, around the wound, and is essentially then you're not just looking at the surface level things of, you're looking at what is the pattern? Where did that pattern come from? What's my relationship with that pattern? How can I meet that thing that I'm avoiding in a way to really integrate it into my nervous system? And then that changes our lives.
So I appreciate going to the root around it. And I also appreciate not parent bashing, right? Like I think there are some things on Instagram that can get really popular when there's a lot of blame.
And I think that's a state of consciousness and it's okay to be angry. It's okay.
There's space for that part of you. And we don't want to live there.
We don't want to live in victimization because that actually doesn't move us forward. That doesn't help because we can't change other people.
Yeah. We can't, we can't heal from that place.
Right. I mean, I think that that's a really important thing to recognize is that when we're stuck in blame, um, we can't, we can't move from there.
And I do really think that our work when we're talking about healing is going from survival to choice. And, and that really is the process that I lay out in the book.
But if we are in blame, we can't choose for ourselves differently because we're still, we're sort of stuck or lost in the distraction of what other people did and how they disappointed us or how they betrayed us or how they, you know,

and I think to your point, yes, of course we can have anger about that and we can have big feelings about that and big experiences about that. But there's also a point in the work where it's hold on us has to shift where we then have a hold on it, right.
To move from disempowered too empowered. So yeah, having the awareness over at first.
So, you know, just understanding the five core wounds understands like, Oh, what might mine be? What does it all kind of come back to? Or the few that it might come up for me, it was worthiness, a big, big part of my life and looking for the next thing and the next success to feel worthy. Right.
And I, I do a lot of work around the Enneagram and so tying what the core fear and the core, um, or core desire is, I think finds, I find that to be really helpful in working with people, especially as a coach, because I can shave off about three sessions, knowing their Enneagram number, just because I can go to the core fear and core wound and kind of see how healthy and integrated they are around it. But having that awareness is first is most important.
And then having the tools to see that there's space between you and that pattern is what I hear you saying. And then there's tools to really keep that muscle and that awareness open.
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Is there a story of your own or a client's around one of the more common core wounds that you've heard that you can share with us to kind of land it? Oh, sure. Yeah.
I mean, the worthiness wound, I'm glad that you brought that one up because when I was writing the book, I was like, I wonder if every human sort of rubs up against a worthiness wound at some point in their lives or not. And, you know, I, I have multiple origin wounds.
Um, and certainly one of them was a worthiness wound. And what I'll say is a lot of times if you're a perfectionist or a pleaser, um, or the comic relief, right.
Or like the performer, um, a lot of times that is going to be really correlated to the worthiness wound. There's a lot of conditions.
Um, like conditional love is really what plays out here, which sometimes can be really explicit. Um, and, and other times it's, it's really in the subtle relationships.
Yeah. Some people might not.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, so if you needed to have straight A's in order to get love, attention, affection, presence from a parent, you needed to score the hat trick in order for dad to be happy.
If you needed to be the comic relief so that dad wouldn't hurt your sister, right? Like sometimes it's the things that you notice and observe. And it might've been, yes, the explicit, like don't come home without an A plus, right? That where someone might be verbatim said something like that.
Or it's just the things that you notice that shift that when I am funny, here's what happens. Or when I am quote unquote good, whatever that means, then mom's less sad or she comes out of her room more.
Right. And so it can be a lot of those, like, what am I noticing actually shift based on my behavior? We as kiddos want love and attachment and connection and presence, right?

All of those things.

And so when we're learning, okay, this is who you need to be in order to get that.

And then when you are not that, here's what is lost, right?

That will start to form the conditions of how we are going to be in relationship together.

My dad was someone who, oh my gosh, when I was an agreeable kid, he was great. He was wonderful.
He was so present, so fun, so helpful. Like, yeah, I mean, it was, he was, he was a wonderful father in that way.
When I was more challenging or if I, yeah, just pushed back on certain boundaries, my punishment, and this was something that was really common for him at the time, was that he would give me the silent treatment. And that would happen for days or weeks on end.
I don't know if you experienced that as well. I saw the smile on the face.
I know that one. Yeah.
We know that one. And there's more context to my story too.
My parents went through a nine-year divorce process. There was a tremendous amount of high conflict.
There was gaslighting, paranoia, manipulation, psychological abuse. It was a really hard thing to observe and be a part of.
I'm an only child as well. And so there were no other humans in the system who were sort of in the experience that I was having.
And what I realized when I was going through that with them is that they were crashed, the adults were crashing and burning around me. And so I felt like I needed to just fly under the radar.
I felt like, okay, there's not a lot of room here for me to not be okay because the two of you are definitely not okay. And so I'm going to pretend to be fine.
I'm going to pretend to be okay. I'm going to be pretend to be unaffected by things.
So I got really good at whatever I put my mind to. And that was my coping strategy.
And when you layer that, you know, of like, don't bring yourself forward, pretend like you're fine. You're not bothered by what's going on.
You're okay. And then you pile on top of that.
Okay. When you are quote unquote good, here's how you get love and connection and presence.
And then when you are not good, then you are punished by having that love and connection and presence taken from you, right? Like those things experienced together were the things that made me a boundary-less human. They were the things that had me disconnect entirely from my emotional experience.
I did not know how to be vulnerable from a sharing perspective. I was very good at receiving other people's vulnerability.
Cue like become a therapist. But it when, when the tables were turned, right.
It's like, that is when it was so challenging for me to be able to bring my, my, myself forward when I was in grad school. Um, like the story was, I mean, forever the story was my parents' divorce didn't affect me.
They're, they're good friends now. Like everything's fine.
And I held onto that story for so long. This divorce had no impact on me whatsoever.
And I think part of, it's interesting, I was recently saying to someone that I think part of restoring self-trust is in our capacity to be with truth. And what it would have required of me would be to be with truth, which would then mean that I would need to make space to actually feel.
And feeling was not something that I knew how to do. In fact, that felt deeply confronting to me because, oh, shoot, what's going to happen if I allow myself to say that I am actually affected? And so I avoided that for so long.
And I presented like I was totally fine. I was a needless little girl who turned into a needless adult woman.
And I just stayed in that place. I embodied the cool girl persona.
I'm good. I'm whatever you want to do.
And there was just a lot of, yeah, there was just a lot of betrayal that happened in that space with self and just what I was allowing other people to do.

So full circle, right? Like my worthiness wound was front and center because I was only worthy and believed that relationships would stick around if I pretended like I was fine and unaffected and

never brought my voice forward and never could speak up or never could share when I was affected by something.

Now that shifted obviously along the way. And there's, you know, a story to that and a catalyst that brought that forward.
But I think, you know, again, and what you're saying is that there is a need for this awareness to present first to say, Oh, I can see how I struggle with worthiness. I see that I over function at work or I over function in my friendships because I'm worried that if I don't, I'm going to fail or people are going to be displeased with me or disappointed in me.
Right. And so we have to start with the identification of it.
Yeah. And to have compassion for those safety strategies, those were the best coping mechanisms that we had to survive, to make sure that we were good.
And so I think just to highlight, you know, anything that we identify with and anything we judge we're stuck with. And so on having compassion through the awareness, compassionate awareness is what helps start shifting it and relieving it.
So it's like, oh, that was the best I knew how it was to perform. And what a great strategy.
I mean, for a little kid to come up with that, I think that's brilliant. And so we think those, those behaviors or those patterns, and then we can evolve beyond them much more easily.
So I think it's important for people to really get that. Yeah, it is.
It's a very important part of the puzzle because otherwise we'll stay in shame and embarrassment about these parts of the self. And exactly as you said, these behaviors that we're so quick to judge or criticize or hold shame around are brilliantly working for us to protect us from something that we're not quite ready to face, that we're not quite ready to see.
And so, yeah, that, that, that shift and it can be hard, but that shift from shame or critique to curiosity is, is just so, so helpful in this work. Yeah.
And that compassion, I feel like there's so, I could go down a whole rabbit hole with you around this and safety and some of, curiosities that I've had. I feel like we're going to end up doing that at some point.
And I also want to bring it to romantic relationships because I think it's fun. I think you and I've been in this work for long enough that we've been watching mainstream wake up to the realization that whatever you're playing out in your romantic relationships roots back to your caregivers, to you're saying like origin wounds, your family system, whoever raised you, mom or dad.
And so I I'm curious your, you know, your experience around how, or how you can share with people, those origin wounds, how they affect our current life and relationships. Yep.
Yeah. So when they are unresolved in a big way, we tend to partner with people who, well, at times, right, they might represent and be some of the beautiful parts of our caregivers, certainly, right? And also some of the more challenging parts.
And it's why when we have an origin wound like worthiness, or we have an origin wound around prioritization, meaning maybe you didn't feel like you were an important person to the important people in your life. And so maybe a parent or a caregiver was a workaholic, or there was addiction in the home, or you had a sibling who had a mental health challenge where all the energy and attention went there, or your parents were going through a divorce and that's what the focus was.

Or there was just high conflict and that was the prioritization of their world.

Whatever the distraction was and whatever the preoccupation was, you didn't feel centered. Right.
And so how common is it for us to find ourselves in a dynamic where we are having the same experience of either not being feeling or experiencing prioritization ourselves. And it doesn't need to be apples to apples.
Sometimes people are like, well, yeah, my dad was an alcoholic, but I haven't dated anybody who's an alcoholic. Like don't get so stuck, right.
In sort of that narrow lens, right. but just am I experiencing deprioritization? And then sometimes in a real sneaky kind of way, we become the person in relationship who deprioritizes others.
As a safety strategy, not to do the other thing. So I think again, as a safety strategy, as a way of unconsciously getting somebody else to understand what our experience was.
I mean, there's a lot of different ways that it can play out. Um, or you'll see somebody who is such an over-functioner where they prioritize everybody else in their lives and they overgive and they overdo, and it's their way of modeling, you know, the type of thing that they wish that they could get from someone.
And so, you know, when we're, when we are engaging in dynamics this way, obviously so much of what it is that we experience and feel through that dynamic is going to be very familiar to that, which we experienced growing up. And here's the thing about relationships, you know, it's like this tight rope.
It's this fine line of, okay, the activations are here. Are we going to be able to move through this together and actually move towards healing? Or is this just going to be a dynamic that winds up recreating the pain and the hurt and the harm over and over and over again? And it'd be, and it's something that just sort of expands the wound more.
Yeah. And, you know, in my own investigation, so I, with my mom as a kid, I felt like she didn't have great boundaries and leaned on me a bit.
That was my childhood experience. And so I married a man that's self-reliant that quote unquote, didn't have any needs, right.
Cause that felt safe. So it can show up in all these interesting ways or for me to judge my own needs, you know, to really know that it's okay for me to have needs and, and to set those boundaries in different ways than the ways that were modeled for me growing up.
And as therapists, you know, a lot of, a lot of the time we would talk about, it's a red flag when somebody says that they had perfect parents and their childhood was great because no one was perfect. And so to be able to hold both the gifts and the challenges just to see with a full picture of our humanity is important.
And one of the things that I did in grad school was a genealogy. It's like, it's like a family tree, but around patterns.
And one of the things I think people miss is seeing the, to really highlight the importance of seeing the gifts of our lineage as well. So, you know, one of the, for example, a gift of my family, both actually both sides of my family, my lineage is gratitude.
They really cultivate a lot of gratitude. So it's easy for me to do that.
And, and then another side would be this like passive aggressive or family secrets. So holding both is really important.
And I think us to even just get curious about, Oh, where did I come from? And what, what's natural for me, or this is what I've been templated as what love is. And is that even true? Cause when I got with my husband from a Mexico, he's from Mexico and the culturally, it was very different.
And it was, he, my love is a bit different than the way that he,

I didn't need to be with him all of the time. You know, there's also there's physical touch.

There's a lot of differences, but what did we learn? What love is from our parents,

from our caregivers and those different family systems, I think is important to even investigate.

But I'm curious for you having worked with so many couples, are there common red flags that you see people overlook in relationship or they don't even notice? Well, I think the goal is to have people who are coming together, who have some type of self-awareness and relational awareness, because I think when people are totally shut down to the idea that their past has any effect or influence on them whatsoever, that like, yeah, there's going to be a limitation there. And, you know, whether we say that that's a red flag or something else, but there's a block, right? There is a limitation.
And what I, especially because of the exact work that I do, if, and this is, I don't see

these clients anymore because people know what my work is. And so no one who is uninterested in doing this comes to talk to me.
But yeah, like that's, to me, there's a big limitation there. I'm such a big believer that there's, you know, however many different modalities of therapy that there are humans on the planet, right? Like how we're connecting with people and what we're speaking, that there isn't just one way, one model that fits all.
But I am a big believer that we have to understand our family of origin that has to be a part of the conversation in order to make sense of what's playing out today. And so, yeah, when I see somebody who really dismisses that or thinks it's bogus or whatever.
Now, again, we know that that's a

protective strategy. We know that they're not quite ready to go there yet.
We know those things. And that's part of the beautiful work that we as therapists and coaches might do is to be in that relationship with someone and create as much safety with them so that we might be able to peel back those layers.
But I would just say that if we are like, there's no way I'm going back there, right? There's a limitation around that. I think when we have people who have, you know, just strong defensive mechanisms where they're just shutting you down or they, again, I mean, it comes back to that self-reflection piece that I was just saying.
It's like, I can't see my part in this. I can't see my contribution in this, right? This is somebody else's fault all of the time.
It's very hard to be in connective relationship with someone when that is what's playing out. You know, we all have a little bit of that, right? where we become self-protective as opposed to relationally protective.

But when it is big, you know, it's so hard, dominant. It's really hard to break through those things because ultimately at the end of the day, in order to do any of this work, we have to have connection.
We have to have some type of intimacy. And so when we have people who are just like disconnected from that, totally shut down and defensive, don't want to see their part in the dysfunction or in the disconnection or in the dynamic, right? It's like that's where we're going to come up with a lot of blocks.
I also think, you know, ultimately, if we don't have people who are able to or willing to express themselves, again, this is part of the therapeutic work.

Like, what are the constraints?

What are the blocks that get in the way of people doing that? But when we're unexpressed for far too long, right? So much resentment builds up. There's just so much that is unspoken.
And so when those types of things are playing out, it's very hard to move the needle. And I love that you bring it with a compassionate lens.
It's like, you know, those are protector parts. Those are safety strategies.
And if they're willing anyone, then we can, we can do the work. Right.
And so I think it's important to just, we don't have to judge our partner and yet still work what's coming up inside of us. Because if we have like a deep priority, deep prioritization wound and I'm, my partner's not doing the work, but that's what's most important to me, then I would still work that wound with a therapist, a trained coach, somebody that can really hold space so that I, I can actually resolve that before thinking about leaving or not.
And so, and this gets me into that question, but first, so one of the trainings I did was in a Mago psychotherapy. It Mago means image in Latin.
So it's like, you are a mirror. I think Harville, uh, Hendricks was the one and Helen really started helping wake people up in the eighties to your partner is your mirror for your parenting because the subconscious that feels safe to your subconscious.
What's known is safe, even if it's not. And so, um, you know, I love that work.
And one of the first questions I would ask couples based on this body of work was what was the part that you played to create the dysfunction in this dynamic? So you are literally forced to answer that question. And if you don't know, that's very telling.
And then in my kid's school, they go to a really progressive school. They have something called the peace path, which is essentially the Imago dialogue.
And it's on a ladder and they take one step closer to the peace. It's so beautiful.
So it's getting more, you know, a little bit more integrated into society, which I think is really helpful. But for couples, I know there's two schools of thought.
I think one of them in the Imago is like, you can work it out with anyone. So I'm thinking of like a strained couples.
They say, you can work it out with anyone. Just close the door on doubt.
Just go all in and, and, and fully commit to it. I know there's other schools of thought that say relationships expire, you know, and you know, they they'll be in your life for a chapter or for a season.
And I'm curious because I can hear people that are like, when a relationship is strained and they're wanting to do this work, how did I can hear them asking me, how do you know? Cause I've heard this. How do you know when to let it go and give up or how do you know to keep working on it? What is your perspective? It's such a hard question.
I know it's such a hard question to answer. Mostly because it's each individual's journey, right? Like where, I mean, my belief is that sometimes our healing is in the staying and sometimes our healing is in the leaving.
And that's for all of us to have to figure out on this path. I don't know that I believe that every dynamic can work it out or find the answer.
If we're talking about any dynamic that doesn't include abusers or narcissists or something like that, maybe there's more to do here. but I'll just name that so that both of you and I are really clear with the listener right now

that there are going to do here, but I'll just name that so that both of you and I are really clear with the listener right now that there are going to be certain scenarios where there wouldn't be a path forward that would be healthy for you. And I also think that a lot of times we run and exit very quickly and that sometimes there's so much power in being able to stay in something instead

of exit prematurely. So I think for me, it's probably somewhere in the middle.
I love the question of what is your contribution? Like, you know, that is just such a smack, right? It's like, oh, yeah, I need to see myself. Yes.
It's such a good question. And, you know, it can feel hard because a lot of times you will have one person in the dynamic who is maybe more available to this type of work, or they're doing some of their reading or they're, you know, they're, yeah, they're, they're in therapy and their partner maybe is uninterested in that, or there's more resistance

around it. And one of my favorite questions for a more resistant partner is to consider what, again, to consider what their resistance is trying to protect them from.
And so, you know, I think maybe the thread here that is coming through is, can we remember that our behaviors, no matter how unhealthy or dysfunctional you might think they are, right, are always in, the function of them is to protect us or the other person from something. Now, we can get stuck there, certainly.
But when we come in and we're like, why won't you do this? Or why can't this change? Or why, you know, why are you being so stubborn? Or I've, I've begged and pleaded for you to do this for years or months or whatever it might be. I think a lot of times when we go down that path, we get very stuck.
And I think part of going to therapy and having these conversations is that we start to ask different questions. The questions that couples ask each other, like when they start banging up against the wall, right? It's like, yeah, we're asking the wrong questions.
And that's why when you bring a third person into the mix, it will often open something up. How many times you've probably had this experience too, where you ask a question and like the one partner answers it or it's like, Oh my gosh, like that's an aha for me.
And the other person is like, I'm sorry, I've been saying that literally for years. Like, listen, this happens all the time, right? Because I'm not you and there's a different energy that's being brought forward here.
And I'm not criticizing or I'm not critiquing or I'm not coming at this person, right? It's like energetically, there's such a, there's such a change and, and, and different energy that's presenting. And so a lot of times, right, this is about us asking different questions and, you know, seeing things very differently than the way that the couple is seeing.
How do we know? Oh, it's, it's not a, there's no answer to that. There's no answer to that.
It's, it's a journey that you're willing to go on where you are willing to see yourself clearly and willing to see the other person clearly. And maybe sort of what I was saying before, sort of this idea of, because part of what happens when we're trying to decide whether we should stay or go is that we often exist in this ambiguity for a really long period of time, right? We are just, usually people don't make very quick decisions when it comes to that.
Like it's something that they are sitting with and they're racking their brains around. And maybe it could be, I mean, a lot of times it can be years long where people are really in that ambiguity.
And I think what often happens in that space is that self-trust does get lost. I go this way, then I go that way, then I go this way, then I go that way.
I ride the line. I don't know.
One day I feel this way more strongly. And the next day I feel this way more strongly.
And those types of things will chip away right at our ability to feel like I can make a decision and I can trust this decision and I can follow through on this decision. And so part of this is like, okay, can I be with the truth of my experience? Can I look at myself? Can I look at the other person and see the things very clearly and understand, you know, the chapter of life that I am in right now? And that will hopefully begin to move us in the direction of, you know, some more clarity when it comes to trying to answer that question.
I love that you keep coming back to truth. And I, what I'm really hearing is the discernment, which I agree.
It's about you really learning to listen, to be honest. And part of what I would say is that whether you work it out with this person or somebody else, whatever's coming up for you in this dynamic will be brought up in another dynamic.
So I always encourage people to use what's coming up for their growth and healing. And as they do that, the next step, the clarity becomes more clear.
They're not reactive, like trying to work it out from the wound. They've actually resolved it.
And so they don't have to perpetuate that, of course, given that there's no abuse in any way, like you were talking about making sure that they're safe. But is this the person I want to do the work with? Because I'm going to do the work either way.
And as I do the work, it's becomes more clear to me what the next most obvious step is. Do I, you know, and I do like going all in.
If you genuinely want to do the work, if you're going to therapy, go all in, you know, people would always ask me how many sessions. And I just started making up a number.
I'm like 12 and I'm like, go all in for 12 sessions because you don't know how long, but it gave them a false sense of safety in the beginning. And they were like, okay, I can do 12 sessions.
I did have one couple out of my thousands of couples that I worked with one couple I fired because I could feel that they weren't, it was too late in the sense where they weren't willing. They were just doing it as a check Mark before divorce.
I was like, I'm not going to participate in you not really showing up if you want this, I'm here. But they were just, it was more so of an excuse.
You'll appreciate this. One time when I was in my internship, swear to God, my parents, when they were in their twenties, were my clients.
The long hair, the dark hair is my dad, the blonde curly hair. I was like, if this isn't transference and projection work, I actually couldn't work with them because the same, they looked exactly like my parents in their twenties, same relationship dynamics.
I was like, I can't see, I can't see clearly. I'm going to, I'm going to project it.
I was an intern. So I was like, wow, life has a sense of humor.
Um, but I also, I know that you talk about attachment styles and we've not talked about that on the podcast. Are you open to sharing a bit about what the different attachment styles are and how they influence our relationships? Yeah.
I, you know, I think our, a lot of people have attachment injuries, right. That happened in their childhoods.
And, you know, that plays such a big role in the way in which we either feel like there is safety and security in the world around us and the people around us, us with ourselves or not. And, you know, what's happening in those, those early years of our lives, right? It's like, we're, we are figuring out whether the world around us is safe and whether we are safe in the world.
And I'm really, lately, I've actually been getting really curious about people's birth stories. I don't know if, um, so I, when I was, when I was getting licensed as a somatic psychotherapist, you could go towards general somatic or pre and perinatal.
And, and just on a high level, what I learned was that your birth story sets the pace for your life. So not, you know, somebody was like, it's more about like, for me, I was born on the way, like almost in the car on the way to the hospital.
That's very indicative of my pace for life. And so my brother, my oldest was a really long birth, broke my mom's tailbone.
That feels very on point for his life and like does things a bit slower. And, you know, so in terms of that, yes, I've dove into that quite a bit.
It's fascinating. Yeah.
It's fascinating. And I'm by no means an expert on this at all, but I do find understanding because a lot of times we're like, okay, family of origin and origin stories.
And we're like, okay, when life starts and it's like, no, no. What was it like in vitro? You know, like what was your entry into the world? What did, were you taken from your mother at that time? Or were you able to be with her? Was there something challenging about pregnancy? Was there something challenging about the birth? Was there something that was traumatic about it? What were your first three years of life like? So there's a bit of that developmental psych that comes into the equation around this attachment stuff as well.
But it's the thing that sets the foundation and framework for whether or not we feel like the world around us is safe or, and if we are safe in the world. Um, and so I've, I've been really encouraging people to, to gather their birth stories.
Um, if, if their parents are willing and available to, to share that with them, because there's so much incredible information in it. And it's so fascinating to see how, like, when you get that tea towel and you're like, Oh, this person's life makes a lot of sense.
You know, like, as you were saying about yourself and your brother, right? It's like, Oh, interesting. Yeah.
Like, this is why you have so much have so much like medical anxiety, right. Or like, Oh, right.
Like these things start to really be highlighted. And so even if like there was a death in the family when you were born, cause then the family's also mourning and celebrating.
So there's even the patterns of what was going on. I know that the research around, around some of this work has been that, you know, the conditioning for kids up until about seven years old, but now it's more like in the womb and three years old is some of the more current research.
It's still vague, but it tracks back further than we've realized for sure. It tracks back further than we realize.
And we can probably say that all of those years are obviously very important that we have stability and consistency. And so whether it's zero to seven or a pre to three or, you know, it's like, no, no, these years are really important years for all of us.
Um, yeah. For example, there was a, there was a suicide in my family, um, that happened when I was two years old.
And I, I had always known this. It wasn't a family secret, but, um, I'd never like there, I wonder when I, I wonder if it was around the, it must've been around when I had my first child, um, where I started to think about like, Oh, like the light, like what's happening in the parent's life and how that is playing out.
And so even if you have a parent who is loving and present and, you know, doing all of the quote unquote right things, if you will, that there's still life that's happening. And, and my mom, um, she lost her sister when I was two years old.
And I remember thinking when I became a parent, like, oh, I wonder how that affected your ability to be connected with me, to parent, to mother, to just be alive in the world. You know, like this was such a significant moment and rupture in her life.

And I had just never, even though, again, it wasn't a secret, it was something that was talked about and we knew about it, but it was, I had just never considered its impact on her and how that might have influenced her ability to show up. Okay.
Relationally, um, maybe with my dad, what shifted in the family and then what it was like to take care of a two-year-old, to have a toddler who was moving around and needing things and wanting things and wanting love and all of this while you're grieving in a really deep way. And so again, I think when we talk about attachment, I mean, obviously, it's been a buzzword for a long time.
We were like, oh, everybody's sort of like over-identifies with like, I'm anxiously attached or I'm avoidantly attached or I'm disorganized. And, you know, I, I, obviously the book attached has been a phenomenon for so many people and all of that.
But I think there's more nuance to it, right? Where it's not just like, okay, you're in this one track and here's what this means and yada, yada, yada. And like, this is exactly how your parent was.
To me, it's so important to sort of open up the landscape and to really consider, you know, when we have more information, I think we can understand some of the more, again, I guess, subtleties that maybe would fly under the radar if we weren't as tuned in to the storyline or the experience or asking some of those questions. I find in our ability to ask questions to our parents if they're still with us and willing to go there, those conversations can be very fruitful.
And I think it can really help us understand the way that we can easily or not so easily connect with other humans, the humans that we would like to connect with at this point in our lives. Yeah.
And I'm thinking about people who want to do the work towards forgiveness, whether that be their parent, a lover, someone in their life, but that person's not necessarily available emotionally, mature or knows how, or they've maybe passed on. I just want to share something that I think is really helpful.
And I'd love to hear yours as well. Something that obviously I always recommend, especially when you go into deep waters to have a trained professional.
And for sure, if you have any big T trauma work with a trauma specialist or a psychotherapist. Um if it's, if it's not in those depths and that it's much more like you just want to have a completion conversation or, or move something from remove something from your heart.
So you feel more open. You know, one thing that I found really helpful is through the gestalt psychotherapy where you can, you express the pain or the hurt or the grievance, whatever it may be that you're holding onto.
And you speak present tense first person. You can do this through literally talking in a chair or just writing something out.
I'm so upset. And you just channel, you just let it come up and out.
You don't get so sucked into it that you lose presence, but you allow the energy to come up and out. And then

you can either move chairs to embody the loving, compassionate heart of that person or your own higher self or the person that you needed at that time. And then, or you can do the, you know, change the pen to you journal to and from.
So that's like pain and fear and love fear and love essentially having a dialogue that can, again,

can be in a chair, but essentially my experience is healing happens, especially forgiveness as we

allow the painful past or whatever the, the hurt was to come up, to be allowed and to be met with

love. And just a tip for people.
Cause one of the things that I see that they get confused is love

is not a cheerleader. Love is not trying to talk you out of your experience.
Love sounds like

Thank you. Just a tip for people, because one of the things that I see that they get confused is love is not a cheerleader.
Love is not trying to talk you out of your experience. Love sounds like, I hear that you're hurting.
Tell me more. I'm here.
It's like energetically getting down on your knees and letting these parts of you or these aspects within you really integrate and be met. But we can't really move to forgiveness until we've authentically expressed and allowed what we've been holding onto.
And so I think I find that to be really powerful, something that people can, again, do on their own if there's not big T trauma or working with a trained specialist to feel lighter, feel more open-hearted, open-minded in their world. I'm curious, you know, if you have any, any ways for people to move into forgiveness that are interested or having clearing conversations.

Yeah. I love what you're describing with the gestalt work, which I really appreciate as well.
I think similarly, you know, in the book, I talk about an origin healing practice and how

important it is for there to be witnessing and grieving that takes place. And I'm a big believer

Thank you. Similarly, you know, in the book, I talk about an origin healing practice and how important it is for there to be witnessing and grieving that takes place.
And I'm a big believer that you can't heal without those things. You can't heal without being witnessed.
You can't heal without grieving, which to me is the authentic expression of emotion that comes forward when we are being witnessed. And I say when stuck, grieve more.
And, you know, I lead people through something. I often have people close their eyes if they feel safe enough to do that and sort of enter into a bit of inner child work where they are seeing themselves off and ask people like how old they might feel in a particular moment.
When I think of myself, I often see like a seven, eight, nine year old version of me. Um, and, and one of the things that I needed to do was really like witness the version of myself who was, I'd perch myself atop the stairs and listen into the conflict and the fighting that my parents would have, or I'd pick up the second phone in the bedroom and listen in on their conversations because I was trying to figure out what was true and honest and real because there was so much lying and manipulation and gaslighting that was

happening. And I remember like coming into contact with that and see, like seeing little me

trying to be the detective, you know, like here was this thing that I was doing and I shouldn't have been doing that. I shouldn't have needed to do that at that age.
I mean, maybe at any age, but you know, there was such a tenderness there, such a heartbreak there. And so visualizing that.
And again, like you said, obviously, if you have the capacity to do that, we might need to do that with somebody else, um, sort of holding us in that space. But, you know, I had the capacity for it and to just witness her and, you know, to when that happens, right.
Then that authentic expression of emotion is something that is able to be expressed, right. There's something that needs to be released.
And when we witness and grieve and the beauty, we can do the witnessing for ourselves. And then we can also have witnessing that happens, you know, with somebody else, like a partner or a therapist or a coach or, you know, dear friend.
To me, that is the thing that expands the space between the activation, right? The stimulus versus the response, right? This quote that's attributed to Viktor Frankl, right? Between stimulus and response, there is a, there's a space, there is a pause, right? And when we're doing this work, right, we're giving ourselves space to connect with, to see ourselves, to feel, to experience, which then gives us an opportunity to choose differently. And I think in this space, when we're talking about forgiveness, I'm always curious about what people's definition of forgiveness is, right? Or what their associations with it are.
Because a lot of times, it's like, okay, I'm letting somebody off the hook, or I'm saying something was fine when it wasn't fine. And I think there's such a need to have a clarity around what is actually shifting in this space, right? Am I moving from having something cling to me, or me cling to it, to it not being something that holds so much power or energy around me, right? And so to think about like, what is your definition, uh, each individual person to consider like, what happens if I can move to that space? I don't know that, you know, there's, it's, there's two camps on this.
Um, folks who really believe that you need, you know, that forgiveness is, is important and it has to be a part of it. And then, you know, the camp of folks who, you know, don't believe that you need to forgive everyone in order to heal.
But I think to your point is if you are in a space where you are interested in forgiveness or where you're wanting to move to that place, I think it is that shift from looking through a linear lens versus looking through a

systemic lens. And when I say systemic lens, what I just mean by that is that we're seeing the limitations and the constraints of others.
And I remember when someone once said to me, I think this was my own therapist said some,

it's not that everybody won't, sometimes people can't. And it struck, I mean, it was just such a simple statement, but it struck me in such a big way.
Cause I was like, why won't he just, why won't like, why can't, you know, why can't you just X, Y, Z, right? And, you know, she was, she was like, because some people actually cannot, right? Because there is a, there is a fragility or there is like, there's too much wrapped around it that if a person were to have done it differently or to see it differently now, like everything will shatter. And I remember that was just such a powerful piece of insight for me, especially again, through that systemic lens of, yeah, like not everybody is out to get you.
Not everybody is not doing this because they don't love you enough or care about you enough or prioritize you enough. Like that sometimes it's deeply, deeply, deeply about them.
And it doesn't mean that it hurts you any less. It doesn't mean that it doesn't impact you any less.
It doesn't mean that all of a sudden, you don't need the thing that you always wish that you could have had from that person. But does that shift something within you where you no longer need to continue to chase the thing that's unavailable, to continue to go down that path of hopefulness that actually winds up being more damaging and painful to you.
And so, yeah, I think that shift linear to systemic is a really big one when it comes to forgiveness, if that's what you're looking for. Yeah.
And I think forgiveness is, I think what's required for healing is acceptance is a place of coming to a sense of, we can't change the past. And so coming to a place and we can ask different questions, like how can I use this for my growth and my healing, right? Rather than asking other questions that like, why did they do this? Or why didn't they love me? It's like, well, how, from a, what can I learn from this? Or what's the opportunity for me to learn, to love that part of me that they're not able to.
I know for me as a therapist, when I first started, I was, I was like, if I have any judgments of somebody, if I could just really listen to them and understand their story, everything makes sense for how they are. And it, it just naturally bred compassion.
Doesn't, doesn't condone behavior, but it just helped me understand. And it felt like, oh, if I'm judging somebody, I'm lazy.
I'm not taking the time to fully understand. And I'm a big fan of doing projection work.
Like what, what am I judging about them? And what is it mirroring to me about myself? Because that's the way that I feel like I can, I can actually do something with it rather than, cause when I judge, I hurt. Right.
And so I can't change them, but how do I have, I feel it's just more empowering point of view. Um, yeah.
Yeah. And sometimes we'll never get the full story.
You know, I think if it's, you know, a client who's willing to open up and share things, yes, that perspective can shift, but sometimes it can feel so hard when we're like, okay, but my dad will not tell me anything about his life and his story. And so like, it's like, there's a block here.
And I think maybe to your point too, is can we just trust that there is a story that is there that makes it make sense, even if we don't always have all of the information? And then we have to figure out what we're going to do with that. Right.
But I think there's, I always say like, you know, when people get stuck, like trying to get somebody to change, like the work is changing the way that we relate to people not changing. That's right.
And gosh, is that a hard pill to swallow? And gosh, is that like some of the most challenging work that we do but yes there are certain things that we can do inside of ourselves to navigate yeah yeah exactly and it doesn't mean i mean and the reminder that forgiveness doesn't mean that we're choosing to have somebody in our lives or that we're gonna hang out with this person all the time or you know it's like you can still have the boundaries and you can still have the space. And in fact, I think a lot of times there are so many consequences to relationships where I actually can't be in your life entirely or at all.
And I can still hold this perspective. Yeah.
And we get choice around that. And oftentimes my experience is stories that I'm telling myself about the situation of myself that hurt me more than the situation.
And so I have dominion and

choice over that regardless. And I can, I can flex that muscle.
Um, one other question. I,

I just, I know that people, we were talking about rebuilding trust. How, are there any

practices or any perspectives that can support people to rebuild the trust once it's been broken? Rebuilding trust is one of the most challenging things we will ever do in this lifetime. I think it's especially, you know, whether it's self-trust or other trust, um, but it is not a walk in the park and it's not something that happens very quickly.
Uh, there's a lot of layers to it, especially when you feel like you have somehow self-betrayed, um, on top of another betrayal. Um, there is a, I talk a lot about this in the trust chapter.
There is a, uh, there's a quote from Ernest Hemingway Hemingway that I really love. It's quite straightforward.
Best way to know if you can trust someone is to trust them. And I love this quote because it's not meant to be a reckless move forward.
This is an eyes wide open process of reestablishing trust in a relationship or with self. And it's a discernment muscle that we're really starting to strengthen over time, especially when it feels like it's been entirely ruptured or atrophied.
I think it's important if you struggle with trust to, of course, understand the origin story around it. And maybe there is something that has happened acutely in your adult life.
And you look back at your childhood and you're like, nope, there was trust there. Certainly there are times where that is absolutely the case.
But there also might be scenarios where there's been lies orit, um, that really stands out to you. Or maybe you grew up in a family system where the narrative was, don't ever trust a man.
And that was the storyline that you were given. Um, or maybe you witnessed something and it wasn't necessarily something that you had, you experienced firsthandedly, but you watched other people go through it where there was a cynicism, um, and a, just a questioning of, of people in your life.
And I have helped, I have clients whose parents told them like, never trust people. They will take advantage of you period.
Right. And that's how they go, go through life.
And so again, even these narratives, even if no one has ever done anything to betray your trust, it's just in the back of your head. And so we're wanting to really understand those storylines, those experiences that maybe shape some of this.
But I do think that this discernment piece is something that is a very slow walk and eyes wide open experience of tuning into our bodies a little bit more. Because I think a lot of times we have to disconnect from ourselves in order to stay in things that are playing out that are like, what if somebody is lying to us or, you know, there is something that's going on that we're not willing to sense.
I said this earlier in our conversation that in order to trust, we also have to have the capacity to be with truth. And a lot of times when we are trying to preserve something, right, whether it's a relationship or whatever it might be, then we're unwilling to be with truth, right? We're unwilling to experience whatever it is, the sensations in our bodies, maybe what our gut or intuition might be telling us.
And so a big part of this is, can I, do I have the capacity to be with truth? Because if I do, then it means that I am going to act on things when I notice them, when I feel them, when I have a question about something, even when, even if nothing is happening, right? Like maybe there's an insecurity that's presenting. Okay.
But I have the ability to bring that insecurity forward with someone and say, Hey, I'm feeling this way. Can we talk about it? Right.
And so that to me is a huge part of this work, but we probably do a whole other episode on justice. Yeah.
And that's self-trust, I think, because a lot of people can be like, I don't trust myself because I stayed in that relationship when I knew it wasn't right. And so doing the work even to forgive ourselves and to really just understand there's clearly a reason you're not doing it.
There's another fear that it's masking. And so more, more compassion, more curiosity.
I love

the honesty piece. If, if there were one thing that you want people to really take away in their healing journey around the origin wounds, what would that be? What do you hope people really walk away with? Well, that there is a path forward and that our work is to move from survival to choice and whatever our stories are, they are not too big to get to a place in our lives where we get to create and maintain the type of love and life that we really wish and desire for ourselves.
There's an exercise at the end of the book that a psychotherapist, Michael Kerr offers that I love, which is to think of your mother as your grandmother's daughter and see how that perspective shifts to see how, like what that changes. And I think that sentiment is such a beautiful one for us with ourselves, for us with our partners, for us with our friends, for us with our family members.
And again, as you and I have been saying many times throughout this conversation, you know, context is not an excuse maker. It's not meant to say that everything's okay.
But what happens if we can remember that we and they were once tiny humans in a flawed and imperfect family system, right? What if we remind ourselves, right, that there is a story here that makes whatever it is that's playing out make perfect sense, right? What happens if we can just bring that forward and in the very important relationships in our lives, if we can touch that and be with that and work with that, then I think there is a tremendous amount of growth and healing and evolution that can happen. I mean, it's the beauty of the work and I have the honor of getting to work with people day in and day out and feel it and experience it in my own relationship of just how profoundly healing that is.
So maybe I'll sign off with that reminder. There's nothing else I would rather do with my life than this work and the gift of being able to do it for reclaiming those parts of us that are stuck in the past so that we live more present and cutting it from our lineage so that we're really changing future generations.
So I just love the work that you do. Thank you for your grace and sharing so much wisdom here and tell us about where we can find the book.
How do we stay connected to what you're up to? Well, thank you for having me. I've loved this conversation.
Um, yeah, you can find me on Instagram at mindful MFT as in marriage, family therapy. The book, the origins of you is sold everywhere that books are sold.
So wherever you enjoy purchasing. And the audible, I got the audible, I got the download.
So I'm listening. Yeah.
Yeah. And I read the book, which was so love.
I really enjoyed reading the book. I know some authors do it and some don't, but I, yeah, I really appreciated reading the book.
And so yes, if you like to listen to books more and you enjoy my voice, then go that route. Yeah.
Go that route. But yeah, all of the things that I have going on, you'll always find in the link in my bio.
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I'm at Alyssa Nobriga.

Thank you again for being here.

I cannot wait to share more with you.