The Secret to Mastering Healthy Relationships + Uncovering Unconscious Blocks with Gay Hendricks | EP 37

A misunderstanding of how responsibility works in relationships.

A lot of people misunderstand responsibility and blame or fault. So, you know, you probably heard as a kid, who's responsible for this mess in here? You know, the idea was using responsibility as a fault-finding mechanism or a blame.
Well, that's a problem because that's not how responsibility actually can heal a relationship. We teach our students a mantra that we call the ha-hum mantra.
It's going from ha to, hmm, what's my participation in this? Instead of, ha, I got you, I know what your problem is too. Hmm, how did I create this? Yeah, because once we own it, then it's like we can change us.
We can't change them. And it feels more helpful.
And not just applicable, I would say, to romantic relationships, but all relationships, right? Welcome. I'm Alyssa Nobrega, your host of the Healing and Human Potential podcast, a place for you to discover the multidimensionality of what it means to be human.
Over the past 20 years, I've trained thousands of coaches in my methodology, leveraging my experience as a former psychotherapist, and I'm here to share with you all the wisdom and insights that I've learned along the way.

Each week, I'll share with you life-changing tools to support you in awakening and manifesting your dream life from the inside out. We'll be exploring the intersection between ancient wisdom

and modern everyday life, really diving deep into the art of human potential through the lens

of psychology, spirituality, and coaching. Let's let the magic unfold.
In this episode, I'm going to be talking about how to cultivate thriving relationships and identify what might be unconsciously holding you back from the success that you deeply desire so that you can do work that you genuinely love in the world. I'm joined by Gay Hendricks, a psychologist, writer, and teacher in the fields of personal development, relationships, and body intelligence.
And he's unpacking 45 years of his wisdom in this podcast. You might've heard of the term zone of genius.
Well, he coined that. So he's going to share about it as well as the other three zones so that you can use it to live more optimally.
Listen in to hear all about it and how to break free from those upper limits and overcome the most common challenges in relationships with these practical tools. Okay, I'm so happy that you are here.
I just want to share as we dive in. So 15 years ago, I was questioning the concept of getting married.
And I was like, why get married? We're at the divorce rates. People have all these stories about like that being shackled, losing your freedom.
And so I was looking for examples of people that were happy and in long term relationships. I found two.
You and your wife, Katie, were one of those two. And I don't know if you remember this, but I came out to your hometown to interview you guys because I wanted to see it real time and real life.
And I interviewed you guys. Not only did I see you vibrant and happy, like you really embodied it, but you also shared with me something that changed the game for me.
You guys said that the honeymoon phrase doesn't have to end, that it can just keep getting better. And so that was 15 years ago.
And I'm interviewing you again. I'm going to put the link below for people to see this like mini documentary that I created with you guys in it, talking about what love is and couples and people that were really living and embodying love, independent of who you are with on a more spiritual dimension.
15 years ago, that was the interview. And now I'm 15 years into my relationship with my husband and hearing that you guys said that it was possible was such a game changer.
Cause I held onto that. I'm like, Oh, it doesn't have to go downhill.
It can keep going up. And so I just, first off want to say, thank you being an example and a model, you and Katie, but also for planting that in my awareness.
And I want to make sure that other people hear that it doesn't have to go downhill. It can just keep getting better.
And so first off, thank you. What a gift.
Well, thank you for the gift also of sharing that because I was already having a wonderful day, but you just took it up a whole notch there because actually I felt some tears coming to my eyes because the most important thing for me and Katie, we've been together now 44 years. And the most important thing for us is to see other people lighting up with the joy of conscious loving and turning their lives into miracles.
That's just the most beautiful thing to witness. So thank you for telling me that was beautiful.
What a gift. And you wrote this incredible book with Katie, Conscious Loving, which I read 15 years ago.
Can you share with us what conscious loving is and how people can create more conscious relationships so people have a framework around it? Yes. Well, Conscious Loving was our book that we wrote.
It came out around 1990, and it was our first book that we were on Oprah with. And so it was a life-changing book for us because up until then, we were two university professors happy to sell 10,000 books a month, you know, but then after Oprah, we were selling 10,000 an hour.
Everything really turned golden in our lives after that. So it was a very important book for us.
But of course, the most important thing is making it real in your life every day. And so Katie and I have had the highest priority during the whole years we've been together of really putting our relationship first and making sure the flow of connection between us was the primary thing that we kept an eye on in our lives.
And so if that started to fade, we sat down and talked and figured out what was going on. Conscious loving is about deciding how you want to be in relationship and then developing the skills that you need to make that happen.
There are a few central skills that human beings are missing in the area of relationship. And I can say that because we've had, I think, 4,500 couples come through over the years.
And so they've all kind of, in a way, suffered from the same set of problems. Number one, a lot of people aren't scrupulous about always telling the truth in their relationships.
in other words they conceal their feelings or they don't say when they're angry or sad or scared or

sexy or whatever they are they they hide those feelings and so the act of concealment itself is a problem in relationship because the moment you conceal things you're treating the other person as the other not as someone you're in connection with. And you're denying them the right to participate in that connection with you.
So number one is learning how to speak honestly. That's a biggie.
Yeah. Yeah, because if you're hiding a part of yourself, then you're not going to really authentically feel connected because not all of you is on board.
Exactly. And if not all of you is on board, it's not a relationship because a relationship is between two 100% whole beings.
It's not through two halves that are trying to make a whole. I wish everybody could understand that.
That's a common misconception. I know.
Highlight it for the people in the back. Yeah.
That's very much through mainstream society, the Jerry Maguire, you complete me. But I really hear as we're honest and truthful and accepting all of us, and sometimes relationships can, you know, my relationship with my husband, him loving the parts of me that I judge, but being honest with him about it, him loving those parts of me helped me love those parts of myself.
So I love, yeah, I love that you're saying like, honesty is the key, because then we feel whole. And then we feel like two holes in relationship.
Yes. And so one of the first vows that Katie and I made to each other, our conscious loving vows, was to reveal rather than conceal.
So I commit to revealing rather than concealing was one of our commitments to each other when we stood on a mountaintop and got married in Colorado 40 some years ago. and it's still true to this day that we believe that telling the truth is part of being completely aligned with yourself.
Because if you're scared about something, and you're not telling your partner about it, you're out of alignment. If you're angry or sad or whatever about something, and you haven't shared it, that's a problem because it sets up a rattle because there's a misalignment there.
A second thing, though, Elisa, that we really came up with that I think saved our lives, our marriage many, many times, and also that we wrote about a lot in our books is a misunderstanding of how responsibility works in relationships. A lot of people misunderstand responsibility and blame or fault.
So, you know, you probably heard as a kid, who's responsible for this mess in here? You know, the idea was using responsibility as a false finding mechanism or a blame. Well, that's a problem because that's not how responsibility actually can heal a relationship.
We always say that we teach our students a mantra that we call the ha hum mantra. In relationship, you're often going, what you're doing ha you're not not doing things right or ha it's going from ha to hmm what's my participation in this instead of ha i got you i know what your problem is too hmm how did How did I create this? Beautiful.
Yeah. Because once we

own it, then it's like, we can change us. We can't change them.
And it feels more helpful and not,

not just applicable, I would say to romantic relationships, but all relationships, right?

This is, these are keys for all relationships. Well, that's, I appreciate you mentioning that

because I, I think that's important to remember, like Katie and I, and our students and colleagues

Thank you. relationships.
Well, that's, I appreciate you mentioning that because I, I think that's important to remember, like Katie and I and our students and colleagues have consulted with lots of businesses, corporations over the years using these exact same principles. We don't exactly talk about them the same way, you know, because if you bring up something like the T word therapy or transformation in business circles, sometimes everybody freaks out.
But it's the same thing because, well, I remember once I used to work at, consult at Dell Computer down in Austin, Texas. And I used to go down there a lot back during the 90s and worked with Michael Dell and his top team who were just amazing human beings I mean these people would catch on to stuff just like that you know without resisting it or anything if they saw a better idea like I once talked to Michael about this whole idea of how to take healthy responsibility rather than any kind of thing revolving around fault or blame or anything like that.
And he got it like in 10 seconds and immediately adopted it. It was so brilliant to see because, you know, a lot of times bring up something like taking responsibility and people really freeze up around that because they've so associated it with blame and burden that they don't realize that responsibility is actually a way to joyfully connect with what's going on, to take responsibility for what's happening is to say, I sourced the creation of it.
And when you're doing that, you're in harmony with the universe. Yeah.
And feel empowered rather than disempowered. Yeah.
Imagine having a fulfilling career, doing what you love, working from anywhere in the world, setting your own hours while making good money and a big impact. If that lights you up, then I'm super excited to share with you today's sponsor, the Institute for Coaching Mastery.
This is my robust, accredited, year-long certification program for newer seasoned coaches, therapists, leaders, and those just looking to up-level their life in a profound way. We have an amazing community of students from all around the world who have really started their journey to expand with us both personally and professionally.
And this experience is designed to give you the three things that you need to thrive. So first, you have all of the tools and support you need to move past what's been holding you back so that you can completely change the trajectory of your life.
And then you learn how to masterfully and confidently facilitate transformation with your clients or your team, regardless of your niche. If you want to do health, business, relationship, or you just have no idea yet, we hold your hand through that.
And then lastly, you'll receive my Six Figure and Beyond Signature Roadmap that's customizable to meet you wherever you are. So whether you want to do high ticket sales, online marketing, or you just want to hit six figures without ever needing to go on social media, we've got you covered.
And this truly is the most rewarding work in the world. We have new students now who have a wait list of dream clients in under a year.
We also have seasoned students who are doing $80,000 months. And this is really about creating lasting transformation from the inside out so that you can share your gifts and serve the world in all the ways that you're called to.
And I've seen firsthand the power of what happens when you have the community to collaborate with, but you also have the right tools and resources to really thrive. And so whether you want to do your own personal development, you're wanting to become a coach, or you're just looking for a cutting edge approach to really grow your business, the Institute for Coaching Mastery is for you.
You are held every single step of the way. And so if you want to get behind the scenes access to the Institute with three proven transformational tools for free to help you create the business and life you love, all you have to do is go to alissanobriga.com forward slash tools, or you can find us at alissanobriga.com forward slash apply now to see all the details and apply today.
And so those are two, I hear the being honest, the taking responsibility, which is like, how did I participate in this? Which is great. Well, a number three is a little bit different because number three, I'll put it this way, a thing that causes a lot of problems in relationship that people don't know is causing the problem.
Okay. It's hidden from them.
They don't realize what the, they may think they're having a lot of arguments with their partner about money or sex or something, but it's often about this hidden thing. And it gets more important as you get older.
So if you're a young sprout in your 30s or 40s, it goes one direction. But if you get further up into your 50s and 60s, it becomes really important.
And it's the C word, creativity. And here's why it's so important, is because if you're not exercising your creativity, you know, I write books that have the word genius in them, like The Big Leap and the new book, Your Big Leap Year.
I talk about accessing your genius. And that's nothing more than coming up with what you most love to do and what makes your biggest contribution to other people.
That's genius to me. And it has to do with being open to your creativity.
So the more you're open to your creativity and expressing it, the less you're going to complain about your relationships. So there's a direct relationship between that.
And the more you're closed off and not expressing your creativity, the more your complaints will go up about relationship. You'll find fault with just about everything.
Why do you think that is? Well, it's the root cause of it is because pure creativity is so powerful that it scares people. And that's why I say start with 10 minutes of it a day.
Start with 10 minutes of your creativity a day and work up from there, because to be purely connected to your creativity is to be connected to the healing powers and the creative powers of the universe and this is a very powerful place we live in here do you know let me tell you about my favorite new fact i read these science magazines and there's a place out in the universe, the astronomers have spotted, where the universe is cranking out 32 new suns, S-U-N-S, like our sun, a second. It's spewing out 32 suns a second.
That's hot. Yeah.
I mean, that's the definition of a hotspot. But if the universe can do that, imagine what we can do with ourselves once we start getting into alignment so that we're not kind of working at cross purposes to everything.
So the more we can ask ourselves, like in my books, I have questions that people can ask, like, what do I most love to do? And what do I do that makes the biggest contribution to the world? Because if we can get to asking those kinds of big questions, the answers just come out of nowhere. Yeah.
Yeah. And I know that with creativity on the other side of doing the unconscious work is more creative expression.
So I wonder if sometimes it gets bottled in us and it wants out. And so that can create, I'm just getting curious if that is part of what would create a conflict.
If we're not feeling like we're giving back or living into a legacy as we get older, that there's a natural desire to want to give back and serve. So, yeah, that's so important.
Eric Erickson, one of the great developmental psychologists of our time, broke life down into decades. And he said that each decade has a developmental challenge.
in your 30s and 40s, we say in your 30s, you find your life. In your 40s, you build your life.
That a lot of people get upset in their 30s because they aren't there where they want to be yet. They get, you know, their expectations are way out in front of their gratitude.
In life, you've got to keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. Otherwise, life doesn't work very well.
But when you're, you know, 20s, 30s, you've got this tremendous amount of energy. And so you're often upset that it hasn't perfected itself yet.
In your 40s, you begin to really put things together oftentimes that you weren't able to put together in your 30s. So you find your life, you build your life.
But here's where creativity becomes important. Eric Erickson says the developmental challenge at midlife is.
Creativity versus stagnation. In other words, the way he puts it is every breath you take is a breath of stagnation going through the motions, or it's a breath of creativity.
What am I discovering? What new am I learning today? And that really is a key to keeping your relationships alive as you get older, too, because, you know, we have folks in here all the time that their relationship. maybe 30 years old but it went flat and stale about 18 years ago you know and they don't don't get a lot of times.
I always say nobody would drive a car with a flat back tire for miles and miles and miles and miles. They wouldn't drive it a second longer than was necessary.
But people will put up with a bad relationship. I mean, literally, we have folks in here sometimes that have been having the same argument over and over again for 30 years and have never really ever resolved it.
It's a joy to watch him resolve it after 30 years. I mean, don't get me wrong.
That's a joy and a jump up and down kind of thing. But gosh, one of the reasons I write these books and do all these TV shows and things is hopefully people will read the books and prevent themselves a lot of misery rather than backing themselves into a gigantic relationship corner by forgetting to tell the truth or take responsibility or juice up their creativity.
And that's beautiful and a huge intention of the podcast. So are those the

three biggest kind of common challenges you see couples go through? Yes. I think if you keep in mind those three things and creativity, the older I get, the more I'm important.
I see creativity being because I see people all the time, friends of mine, people I've known that sort of turn off their curiosity as they get older. One of the most formative conversations of my life only lasted about 10 minutes.
The first time I went to Europe in 1980, I was in Paris for the first time and I was sitting on a park bench, just kind of sipping a couple of espresso and enjoying the wonders of this amazing city and was resting. And across the field, the park, I noticed a very energetic older woman who was in her 60s.
To my perception, I was about maybe 35 at the time. And but anyway, she came right across and sat down at the other end of the park bench from me.
And I happened to notice that she had an English language book in her arm. And and she also had what looked like a brand new pair of sneakers on.
And I admired them in English. I said, you must have a new pair of shoes.
They look absolutely spotless. And she says, yes, it's my sixth new pair on this trip.
And I said, where did you walk from? Arizona. Wow She was 62 years old

She walk from? Arizona. Wow.
She was 62 years old. She, she, she had been a principal of a high school and she retired at age 62.
And she had this conversation with her husband where she said, I've always wanted to go on a long walking trip. I want to start walking around the world.
Do you want to come with me? And he said, no. And she said, okay, I'm going.
You can come visit me every six weeks or six months. And his reason for going is kind of heart-tugging in a way because she said, why? It's going to be the adventure.
And he said, I've got my favorite TV shows. I don't want to miss my favorite TV show.
So, oh, that's heartbreaking. You know, that somebody could turn off the TV show of their lives and be out and something dazzling every day and, you know, watch it on TV, but God bless.
Following that aliveness and like keeping that creativity i feel and and i loved what you said earlier about just even 10 minutes to start there for me it's dance so just just and it's an like that can be part of my morning ritual if i just play a song and see what my body wants to do which and anyway i know we can go into that but i want to ask you about microscopic truths because this was a concept I learned in conscious loving that was so powerful. And I still use it in my marriage now.
Can you share with us about microscopic truths, how we can use those? Yes. Think of looking at your emotions through a microscope, through the seed, the detail of them, Because sometimes people grow up with being punished for their authentic emotions.
I once was sitting in a movie and it was kind of a scary movie and somebody rather inappropriately, I thought, had brought a little two-year-old. And the two-year-old was picking up on the vibes in the movie theater.
And I heard him loudly whispering to his dad, I'm scared. I'm scared, daddy.
And his daddy was saying, no, you're not. No, you're not.
No, you're not. Sit still, sit still.
You know, that's a kind of a, almost a comic book example of the kind of programming we get about our emotions. But a lot of times if we're angry, people try to talk us out of it.
If we're sad, people try to talk us out of it or scared. Or we talk ourselves out of it.
Like, I don't need to feel scared or I don't need to feel sad versus just meeting the sadness or fear. Yeah.
Yeah. I remember my older brother was, you know, in good faith, I got hit by a ball in little league baseball.
And I tried to field a ball and it took a hop and hit me in the forehead and i went down like a shot and started crying because it hurt like heck and my brother came in and helped me get to my feet and kind of escorted me off the field and he was trying to tell me not to um not to keep trying he was saying don't cry don't cry don't cry and i couldn crying because it hurt so bad. And I was caught in that bind.
And I think we get caught in a bind between, you know, we want to acknowledge our own authentic feelings, but we don't want to get in trouble either. You know? So we learned to kind of build a wall between, but there's actually nothing wrong with our emotions.
They've been cultivated for millions of years. We have, mean, you have hundreds of points on the bottom of your foot that that register pain and you have lots of things inside your body that register like sadness is your way of registering loss.
fear is a way of registering not having a solution to the problem at hand whatever it is

anger is sometimes a reaction to some kind of unfairness that's happening. Somebody's taking advantage of you or someone you see in a power way.
So our emotions have a naturalness to them. If we can just look at them microscopically and understand them.
Like I say, you know, the three emotion statements that can do the most good in a relationship are, I'm scared, I'm sad, and I'm angry. Another one, which is good is not with an emotion, but just is, I don't know what to do right now.
Yeah. Because sometimes you just don't, you're in that bind place.
You don't know your mind goes blank. And that's a good thing to say is, I don't know what to do right now.
And this is an example of a microscopic truth. Because sometimes we think that we need to know what to say.
And it might just say, I noticed I have butterflies in my stomach. When you say that you're not, there's no solution.
You're just intimately letting somebody in on your inner world, which creates more intimacy and connection. So I find that really powerful and helpful just to keep continue joining with that person.
But I also hear you saying, and I want to highlight learning to allow our emotions, especially a lot of men or little boys were conditioned not to feel and actually letting the emotion come up and out is not only healthy, but there's feedback in it. So it's like, oh, I feel anger.
So then what's the boundary that was crossed or what doesn't feel right for me? So it's allowing it and then getting the feedback so that we can upgrade it. I mean, even myself, I know that if I start complaining, that's a bad habit of mine, but I know that I'm under resourced, that I've pushed myself too far.
So rather than complaining about complaining, which is another layer of complaining, it's like, oh, this is feedback that I need a break, that I've pushed myself. So I can be compassionate with myself to get the feedback and then make a change.
So I love that you are really supporting people in emotional mastery.

Yes. And something you said, I think is extremely important because one of the ways we get under resourced and out of sorts is by ignoring our creativity, not doing enough stuff that we love to do compared to stuff that we've got to do.
And there's nothing wrong with having a lot of stuff you got to do. You know, you're

operating at a high level in life. You're going to have things you do for money, things you do

for family things. So that's a good thing.
But the important thing to do is you've got to keep

that flow of aliveness going with your own creativity. Yes.
Yes. And I want to ask you

about that. But before we get into that, because I love your work around this, I want to just see if there's a story from your and Katie's marriage that was transformative in your relationship that you're open to sharing.
Yeah. Maybe a moment where you're like, whoa, that happened and it really deepened you for your for your marriage.
I thought of one that relates somewhat to what we were just talking about. There was a time there was about a year or so into our relationship, when we were really trying to figure out this whole thing about how to speak the microscopic truth to each other and that kind of thing.
And so Katie was late coming home. And this isn't the era before cell phones or anything like that.
You're probably way too young, but there used to be a time when you wanted to make a phone call in your car, you had to put up, pull up at a smelly little booth and get into it and put money into the phone and everything. So you missed that era, hopefully.
But Katie was had, I forgot the exact details. I think she was shopping and got caught up in something or got something happened on the way home.
But anyway, she'd said she was going to be home at 730 and it got to be eight o'clock. And I was so when she came in the door, I started saying something critical to her along the lines of, where have you been? You know, you're holding hair.
And as I was saying that, I had this sudden awareness. Oh, I'm sounding irritated and angry, but what I'm feeling is scared.
Why would I be saying something irritated in an irritated tone of voice when my actual feeling is fear? And so I just blurted that out to Katie. I said that basically, I said, I'm feeling, you know, butterflies and my stomach is tight.
It's like I'm scared, but I'm sounding angry at you. So let me just stand here for a moment and figure out what I'm scared about.
And she got into it too. I mean, she suddenly realized, oh, this is kind of a sacred moment.
And I remember she was just standing there kind of transfixed. And I said, it only took me a matter of seconds.
I said, I'm afraid I'm going to lose you. And she kind of reacted and said, oh my God, you know, how did that come from being a half hour late to I'm going to lose you? And I realized that that was the background thing in me that was coming up was I was at this place where I was afraid I was going to lose the relationship if I didn't get more skillful at the things we'd made vows to do, like taking responsibility and telling the truth and that kind of thing.
Beautiful. I love that.
It was a magic moment. That's the microscopic truth, but that's also the vulnerability underneath the defense, the vulnerability, which creates more joining together and discovering it together fresh in the moment, which is creative, vulnerable, and honest.
It's all of those things at once. As you shared, I'm hearing personal responsibility, and I really stand behind this.
It doesn't sound sexy, but it's one of the most empowering ways to relate. But how would you define, because you were saying that people misunderstand the word personal responsibility.
I know some people say the ability to respond, but I'm just curious your definition. I understand you were like, oh, how am I participating in this? But just to ground it for people, because there is so much misunderstanding around it.
Yes. Well, remember the ha hum.
A lot of people are programmed to look for fault when they're upset. Who caused me to be upset? But the extreme healing only comes through the moment you go, Hmm.
Even if you've had the same argument for 42 years, we ask couples to say, hmm, why would I be requiring and addicted to starting an argument on Friday night? And of course, they come back with, wait a minute, I don't start to you. And he starts the argument.
And that's exactly the point. So stop right there and say, why would I, of all the possibilities of things to do on planet Earth, choose to have this same argument over and over again for 29 years? So the moment you begin to do that in a benign way, you can't do it in a blameful way.
Yeah. Because if you say, oh, what's wrong with me? Yeah.
It just doesn't work at all. Because, I mean, you mentioned sexy a little while ago.
Responsibility is a sexy thing. So is telling the truth.
I know, but most people don't see it, but it is the number one relationship hack in my experience and super sexy. Yes.
Oh, totally, totally. And Katie and I say, there's only one six inch sexual organ you need to really work on.
And that's right here in your throat. Get that throat chakra really open and everything else will come into place.
And I, you know, we've had, I was thinking

of a couple just a second ago, speaking of getting the throat chakra open. We had a couple

in here that had been basically stuck for 15 years. I mean, that sounds almost impossible.

Well, I think most couples are, but they keep thinking it's the surface level of things like money or sex or whatever the thing is with the kids. But yes, well, like the four things are our children are the the children thing is occupies tremendous bandwidth.
Children, chores, money and sex. Those are the big four.
OK, and I'm here to tell you, folks, that all of those are flags, but they're not the thing. They're a flag waving to another issue.
And you've got to get down underneath the surface in order to get the work done. There's another thing I wanted to mention, too, that's really important.
And that is the subject of commitment, because you have to start somewhere. And if you make a commitment to something like learning to tell the microscopic truth, everybody needs to start with a heartfelt commitment because you're going to need that commitment later on when the tough stuff gets underway, because the nature of any kind of commitment is there's kind of come a day when it's tested and you find out, am I really committed to telling the truth? Am I really committed to taking responsibility when it looks so much like it's the other person's fault you know those are the moments when you can say oh that's why i created this yeah okay give us an example so that people can that if it was they thought it was about the or what would be a grounded where it's really about the roots so people can see it.
Okay. That's funny because I was just texting my daughter who's in her 50s now, but when she was in boarding school, she was in Freiburg Academy in Maine.
And I was lying, resting, just kind of propped up on some pillows, goofing off on a Sunday afternoon. And when I lived in Colorado, this goes back way back, obviously.
So she was this, you know, 15 year old kid, a sophomore in boarding school. And so I'm sitting there on in my situation.
We're talking, Katie and I. And I suddenly realized something that I'd never thought about before.
I was thinking about that. I was angry at Amanda about something that she had told me that she had gotten into some trouble at boarding school with her dorm supervisor and stuff.
And I immediately could see why it was totally her fault but But being a 15-year-old, she was unwilling to make that move. You know, she was concerned.
She was convinced that this lady was a real bossy person, etc. So I was lying there and I was talking to Katie.
We were just sitting there on these pillows lying there. I was angry at Amanda and I say, it reminds me of that other time and it reminds me of that other time.
And I realized, wait a minute, I've got a theme going here in this situation. and suddenly it dawned on me oh i teach people how to make the ha hum move all the time

why don't i try that myself and so i said hmm why do i keep getting recycle situations why when amanda is angry at me that was the usual situation she would get angry at me for something and then i would get defensive about it and get angry at me. That was the usual situation.
She would get angry at me for something. And then I would get defensive about it and get angry at her.
And it was just usual teenage stuff, but I kept getting stuck in the middle of it. And so I think for the first time, I did this ha-hum move and I said, hmm, why do I keep recycling this thing about being mad at Amanda and having Amanda being mad? And I realized, oh, it's because I've been angry at her mother for 30, however long it was, 20 years at the time, probably, I've been angry at her mother, and I see so much reflection in Amanda, I can't make the distinction.
Oh, man, that changed my life. Just having that moment, because here's the weird telepathic thing that happened.
I'm excitingly talking to

Katie about this new realization I'm having. Oh, I see.
It's my bad dream. I dreamed this whole thing up, you know, out of this thing that happened with her mother.
And the telephone rang. and it was amanda calling from maine And she didn't even say hello.
She said to me, what's up? And I said, you would not believe what the experience I'm having right now. And I said, are you in a place where you can hear some really deep stuff from me? Because this is raw stuff.
You know, this is ash coming out of the volcano and I don't know if it's good to breathe or not, but you know, it's up to you. And she said, Oh yeah, keep talking, keep talking, keep talking.
I remember her just kind of, and she was, and I, and I told her what I just realized. And she's saying some equivalent of teenage.
Oh, my God. Oh, my God.
You know? Yeah. What a gift.
What a gift for both of you. Yeah.
And I'm even just thinking of, like, are there certain questions we can ask ourselves to have an insight around what that might be if it's unconscious? One way to start is to ask yourself, how is this familiar? How is this familiar? Because if you can start to see a pattern, a pattern is three or more instances. I wouldn't worry about it if it's just a one-off or a two-off, but if you've got the same kind of thing that's happened over and over again, warning sign from your unconscious.
It's saying it's about you. It's not about it.
That's right. This is so good.
I have something I want to explore in my own. It's something I've been trying to get clarity on.
And it kind of leads me into this next part of the conversation that I want to go into, which is about your other incredible book. I know you've got many, The Big Leap.
And this specifically helps people understand what their upper limits are and specifically about how to identify them. So I'm curious if you can share a little bit about identifying people's upper limits, if they're not conscious of them and how to have a breakthrough through them.
Yes, the upper limit problem is our human tendency to sabotage ourselves and knock ourselves back down when we exceed our own limits that we've set for ourselves. And here's the big and that is to notice that those limiting beliefs are often not ones that we have chosen, but ones that were put on us at an early time before we could think for ourselves.

Like the most common limiting belief is basically a version of I'm not worthy.

I'm fundamentally flawed.

I don't deserve the good things of life. I don't deserve to be healthy, wealthy, and wise.
Or defective or something's wrong with me. Yes.
Yeah. It's what we call around here, fundamentally flawed.
The person feels like they're the wrong body or the wrong height or the wrong weight or the wrong skin color or the wrong IQ or whatever it is that's their limiting factor. And they believe in that.
They've unconsciously bought into the belief. And boy, I'll tell you, I've been, well, since I started thinking about this 35 years ago, long before I wrote The Big Leap, I, you know, I've seen in this, very office here, I've been here now for 25 years, in this office, people coming out from under those limiting beliefs.
And they might be 50 years old, but they're still operating out of a belief that they took on when they were four years old. And it's a beautiful thing because when you come out from under it, you get to cash in all the energy that's been bound up in it.
Yeah. So, so this is very similar to some of my line of work as well around self-worth and waking up to your inherent worth and value.
My experience is when people feel like they're going above their comfort zone, it's not safe. There's like upper limits and lower

limits where it's, there's this like imaginary safe zone where this is who I think I am. And

that's how I get connection in the world. So I'm curious then if people do work on their self image

to either wake up beyond who they think they are, if they're interested in spiritual awakening or

enhancing their sense of self, does that help in your eyes, mitigate some of the upper limit issues? Yes, because it's, it's about finding the stable center in yourself. And a lot of our inner experience is whirling around in there, you know, thoughts.
It looks like a traffic jam up there some days. It looks like, you know, easy traffic up there some days.
But and the same thing with our emotions. Sometimes it has a grip on us, anger or sadness or fear or our sexual feelings.
And sometimes they're, you know, less grippy on us. But in one way or the other, all of that is in that world of swirling emotion and moving thoughts.
But there is, I believe, and have experienced inside myself, a stable center, we call it here, pure consciousness. it's that part of yourself that just doesn't change.
It's a shimmering background experience all the time. And the more we can come home to that, that's home.
This is medicine. And this is so in alignment with everything I've experienced as well, where the thoughts, the feelings, the sensations, they come and go, but what do they come and go within, which is the center of our being, this ground of wellbeing that is our true nature.
And as we navigate and learn how to kind of surf the waves emotionally, or my experiences and part of my methodology is bringing acceptance to the thoughts, feelings, and sensations. And through acceptance, everything dissolves and the clouds part.
So we can more authentically embody and experience our radiance, the truth of who and what we already are. So this is just right on point.
I'm so grateful that you do that work and how it relates to success, to going for our dreams. Like very, a lot of the works that we train and certify coaches, and a lot of the work is about doing some of the core work internally so that it can create lasting change externally.
I don't see how you can not go into the past to create sustainable change. We have to unravel some of the misunderstandings and wake up to who we are to have that.
And so I love that you're speaking to

this. So a lot of people don't think they're run by the past, but that's the past trying to keep

them enrolled. That thought is created by the past.
And so, you know, it's interesting. I'm a

longtime meditator now. I've been a meditator for more than 50 years now, but before I ever got into meditation, I got knocked into my first experience of pure consciousness by a happy accident.
I had a slip and fall on a snow covered road in New Hampshire when I was 24 years old. And I was very overweight at the time.
I weigh about 185 pounds now. I'm about six feet tall.
So, you know, if you saw me walking past, you'd say there's a kind of an athletic looking old guy going past there. But way back then I was overweight.
I wore big thick glasses. I was in a really toxic relationship.
So things were not going well in my life. And I slipped on the road and went down on my back and I whacked my head, but I didn't knock myself out.
but the way I put it is I had an out of Hendrix experience where it kind of knocked me out of my usual sense for a while.

And it was like it was like turning on the light inside me. I saw these things I'd never seen before.
I saw anger there that I'd never even talked about. And I saw sadness that going back to my father's death when even before I was born.
And so it was like seeing

these things for the first time. But here was the magic, Elisa.
I saw that pure consciousness

for the first time. I saw that behind everything and the matrix of everything is this pure

consciousness. And I'd never known about it because there was all this stuff covering it over.
Yeah. Yeah.
Beautiful. That is everything.
And the foundation, I think, of what makes, yeah, waking up out of the dream. So it's beautiful.'s sometimes these accidents really can be an entry point or doorway into something deeper.
And yeah, go ahead. Well, the way I put it is that the universe is ever so happy to teach us lessons with the tickling of a feather.
But it's also, if we're not paying attention, ever so happy to teach us with a sledgehammer, you know, because that's a sledgehammer experience I was just describing there. I don't want anybody else to have to fall on their back or to enlighten themselves.
You know, I'm glad I got the message, but it's, that's why commitment is so important. I remember as I was coming back out of that experience, I was, it only took about two

minutes, but as I was kind of coming back into my normal awareness, I could feel all of that slipping away, kind of going back into the darkness. And I could feel all my habits.
I smoked heavily at the time. I smoked two or three packs of Marlboros a day, and I could feel the urge to have a cigarette coming back.
And all of these things, I felt like my personality kind of grabbing back on. But I think what saved my life is I made a commitment.
I said, I'm going to do whatever it takes to live in that experience of pure consciousness all the time so that I can feel it just like I feel at this moment as I'm talking to you. But that's 50 years of meditation that's improved that.
So I didn't want to have to keep bashing myself on the ground to keep enlightening myself. And so I started doing practices like meditation and yoga and everything I could get my hands on that kind of opened up me to more of a living, living that light inside myself.
And that's commitment is such a opening gate to make these kinds of life changes. Yeah, I love that.
And, and having, and in terms of the, the upper limits, my experience is life will show us where we're not free. So it can be an accident.
It can be just continuously repeating a set point in our business, weight, relationship, happiness level. I think because it's unconscious, life has to have it mirror in physical world reality to help us see it.
So I'm curious how, if people are listening, they're like, how do I become more aware of where I'm limiting myself? Because oftentimes they're unconscious. Are there questions they can ask themselves or an exercise they can do to become more aware? Yes.
I want to mention a couple of the other limiting beliefs, first of all, because a lot of people in our area suffer from a second one, which is we call it around here, the fear of outshining.

It's a lot of people have been kind of programmed early on to be the support person for the star or.

I don't know anything about that.

Your recovery, you were in recovery from that one.

Well, congratulations. You're doing a great job so far because you're clearly in your genius zone now but a lot of us get programmed early that we're supposed to support the golden boy or the golden girl and it starts in a lot of families oftentimes so but the important thing is that all of us need the light.
We need to be able to stand up and be the star of your own show. And it doesn't matter.
Like one of my old mentors, Abraham Maslow, he said, it doesn't matter if you're making a genius soup that's going to feed five people, or you're composing a genius symphony that's going to be listened to by 5 million people. It's the same act of creation.
It's tuning in. It's listening.
Like my wife, in addition to writing books and flying all over the world, giving talks and everything, is a genius chef cook. And I will watch her making soup.
We like soup around here a lot. And she will have maybe 15 spices out at her ready and she'll be fine tuning that thing, you know, just sniffing it and taking a little tiny taste.
And it's really fascinating to watch. It's almost like she's in a trance while she's doing it.
I don't ever interrupt her, but I do like to watch it as it's happening. Anyway, that's just an example.
See, soup feeds a few people, but the act of creation, that feeds your soul. And the energy that moves through us in that creative process is so nourishing, not only for the nervous system, but just our soul.
Like there's an aliveness. I know when I was designing my certification program, I never felt more spiritual energy and creativity moving through me than anything else in my life.
I was working full on for it, but it was so enlivening and electric and nourishing to do just by answering the call. You asked about questions.
Well, there's a couple of really good ones to ask. We mentioned early on, am I doing what I love to do? And what is it that I most love to do? That's part of your genius.
Am I doing something that makes a heartfelt contribution to one, two, 10,000 people? It doesn't matter if it's a family or your children or whatever, as long as you feel like you're making something that draws on a heartfelt contribution. So see, I've had the, I was going to say pleasure, but it's not pleasure of being with people on their deathbeds and having conversations with people at the end of their lives.
And I can guarantee you that nobody is talking about office politics or politics in general. It's always about, did I love enough? Did I listen enough? Did I, you know, was I there for that person? It's questions about that, that are questions of the heart.
And so we've got to get in the business of asking ourselves heart questions like, is what I'm doing really fulfilling? If not, let me spend 10 minutes today doing something that's fulfilling. Sometimes a homeopathic drop of genius every day will make your whole day.
Yeah, because I think oftentimes we think we have to just change everything. But I keep hearing you say these microscopic shifts, can I bring in 10 minutes of creativity? Can I carve out 10 minutes for the things that bring me aliveness? It's so much more doable and helpful, I think, even for sustainable change.
Yes. And I want to stress that because a lot of people think, oh, gosh, to express my genius or to write my book or whatever, I've got to have my house just right.
I've got to be in a cave in Tibet or, you know, in a tent in Tahiti or whatever the thing is, the requirement. But it's not about that.
It's about believing in yourself enough to sit down for 10 minutes, even if that 10 minutes is spent. What the heck is my genius? Do I even have a genius? That kind of focus.
That's your genius right there. Yeah.
Good. Okay.
So I hear the, essentially, I'm not good enough, the I'm defective in some way and outshining. Was there another one? A lot of people are burdened by the past in the sense that they don't move forward.
They don't take advantage of learning opportunities or they don't follow their dreams because they feel this big weight of I don't want to disappoint my parents or I don't, you know, I'm afraid if they know what I really want, they'll disown me or disapprove in some way. So it's a burden of the past.
It's about releasing the burden of caring what other people think, to put it bluntly. You think this is also the fear of failure is in that bucket? Yes, very much so.
Because that's very much connected to that too. If I fail, what would people think of me? What would I think of me? Yeah.
Yeah. So what I did in the big leap and in the new book, Your Big Leap Year, was put it in very microscopic terms so that you can see and feel in your own body when you're being run by one of your old programs.
Like, I'm a burden. I don't deserve love.
I'm not the right person for the job. There are probably a few others that we haven't discovered yet, but those are the main ones that people keep coming in with.
The first two, the shining and the fundamentally flawed, are the biggest ones that account for most of humanity. And I want to tell you, Lisa, too, that we have people in here who, you know, they've won a Grammy or they've won an Oscar or they've made high distinctions writing about an important subject, but they don't believe down inside that they're not fundamentally flawed.
Yeah. You know, and it's sad to see, but it's also beautiful to see when people get out from under that.
That's right. That's right.
I think this is the core wound of humanity is this. And I sometimes it plays in through religious upbringing.
Sometimes it's through our families. There's, you know, it's like, and I think of the Enneagram as a framework for I'm not successful enough.
I'm not perfect enough. All the different personality styles for why, why we're not enough.
But my experience is actually in somatically presencing the sensation of not good enough.

It opened me to my wholeness. That was the very part of me, the child within me that was looking to be loved.
And as I embraced it, I started waking up to my wholeness. So I'm a big fan of doing the depth of work around that.
So thank you for speaking to it. Well, it's clear that you're doing it.
And I appreciate you doing it, what you're doing, because we need more people in the world who are doing what they love to do and what calls upon their genius. And I mean, I want to live in a world where there's 7 billion geniuses.
We need it. We need it desperately.
And you coined the zone of genius term. Is that right? I believe so.
Yes. I mean, I have heard this again and again and again.
And so I love that. I would love for you to speak just to the zone of genius, the other three zones, so people can start understanding it and how to keep living in their zone of genius in what brings them aliveness, doing what they love.
Yes, your zone of genius is different from simply what you're good at. What you're good at and what you get good feedback from is often in your zone of excellence.
And that's a great thing. It's a wonderful thing, but it has a high burnout factor in the sense that if you've been doing your excellence for a while, you start getting a calling that you want to do your genius.
And if you don't answer that, then you start not feeling as good about what you're doing. And so your genius zone is all of the things you love to do, all the things you love to do.
And I add this also dimension of that also make a contribution to other people. Because to me, genius is not a lonely thing.
You may think of the chemical formula, but it doesn't make any difference until you share it with people and it changes their lives. So your genius zone is the answer to a bunch of these questions that we've raised, like, what do I love? What makes the biggest contribution? What brings me the greatest satisfaction per time spent? Because a person can be in their genius zone for 10 minutes, and it's like taking a shower.
They come out feeling very different. I've seen it tons of times with my own eyes that we start people here with 10 minutes.
We ask them to go in a room and just do nothing for 10 minutes, but wonder about, hmm, what is my genius? And then we ask them to take three breaths every time they ask themselves the question, what do I most love to do? Breathe three times. So the question is about the question.
It's not about finding the answer. You've got to just raise the question and float the question.
Around here we call that wonder questions where you, hmm, what is my genius? Hmm, what is the best use of my time right now hmm what do I most love to do those are nurturing questions that will direct you toward your genius zone but then you got to put your meat in the seats and do it you know you got to sit down and actually compose the symphony or make the soup or do something so it takes it out of the realm of just stuff you're thinking about. Yeah.
Okay. I love this.
And this is so helpful. And for somebody like me who knows what my zone of genius is and still will be operating in, I forgot what the other terms of like zone of competence and incompetence is still primarily living in or working in those sections.
How do you coach somebody to really set up their life to make sure that they honor that commitment? So for example, I'll be more transparent, authentic with my experience. So I have a company, maybe 45, 48 people, and it's I'm not, I'm great with creating experiences that help people change their lives.
I'm great at delivering it, selling it. I love being on stage.
I love coaching. Like all of that lights me up the creativity and I'll jump in to do some of the backend work, which I don't love because there's a story.
So as I'm

talking, I'm kind of coaching myself. There's a story that either it won't be done at the level

of excellence that I want, or there's not enough support to make sure that it's handled. And so

even as I'm talking, I'm hearing some of my programming of childhood, being the glue in the

family, being playing into over responsibility and how that's now showing up with my team. I think listening, they have to listen.
They're in a process of listening and you have to listen for genius. In other words, nobody is ever going to be there all the time you know it took me 20 years from the first when i first started thinking about this way back around 1980 i i set myself the goal of being only in my genius zone by the end of the century and i started working up to, but that was like 20 years it took me to keep raising the bar.
You know, I think my first bar was, I want to be spending 30% of my time, three out of my nine hours a day doing things that are in my genius zone. So that's where I started.
This is helpful because I can see that I'm so ambitious and I'm a quick start that I think my measuring system is off. And that was more of a perspective shift where yes, I can see how it's tied into my family dynamics, maybe work on that internally, but then have a little bit more grace with the incremental shifts of how that shows up in my company.
So that was brilliant.

That was super helpful so that I'm offering myself and my team more grace as I set things up to be supported with and doing the inner work and the outer work. Gay, I know we could talk forever.
I find so much value in what you're doing. Please share with people where they can stay in touch with you.
Oh, yes. Well, our basic website, Hendrix.com, spelled H-E-N-D-R-I-C-K-S.
That's the main place. And there you can find all the trainings we do.
And then you can also jump over to our nonprofit foundation, which has a lot of free materials and videos about how to solve relationship problems. And it's kind of our outreach arm.

And so that's the foundation for conscious living. And you can find out all the good stuff there.
And of course, all the bookstores have our books and the new book, Your Big Leap Year. That's just out in the world now.
So that's kind of the new thing. it's a day book, a day at a time book, and breaks the big leap down into things you can do every day for a year.
I love that. I'm definitely getting that.
Thank you so much for what you're doing in the world. Thank you for this conversation.
I'm so grateful. Thank you for asking the best questions.
Thank you so much for doing this work that changes the world, starting with yourself. It truly does make a difference.
And if you're finding value in this podcast, a cost-free way to support us is by leaving an up to five-star review. It does mean the world to us.
And as a thank you gift, we're going to send you one of the most powerful tools that you will ever discover. You're going to get behind the scenes access, showing you how to live into your full potential without letting fear hold you back from stepping into your dreams.
Just head over to Apple podcast or Spotify and leave a review. Now you can take a screenshot before hitting submit and then go to a listenobriga.com forward slash podcast to upload it and make sure to have your automatic downloads downloads turned on wherever you listen so you don't miss any of the upcoming episodes.
I have so much magic.

I can't wait to share with you. And you can find all this information in the show notes below.

But lastly, if you're on Instagram, I love connecting and hearing from you. So come on

over and say hello. I'm at Alistin Obriga.
Thank you again for being here. I cannot wait to share