Unlock Healing Through Creativity: Turning Pain into Art with Allie Michelle | EP 62

Grief and death show us how much we are capable of loving.

That's the gift in it.

And if you're navigating heartbreak, you know, I think part of it is,

feels like you lost a limb all of a sudden,

and you have to learn how to go about your life without this integral part of you.

Take a breath with me.

And as your lungs taste oxygen for the final time,

watch as death unravels the fabric of your story beneath his bony fingertips

to take an honest look at the life that you lived. You'll watch, with wide eyes, the chapters that unfold revealing your mark on earth from the very first second that your body was birthed.
Every love, every loss, every trial, every triumph, the pages are turning quickly now and you'll beg for more time as all these precious memories flash across your eyes. When we avoid death, we avoid life.
When we avoid death, we avoid life. When we avoid death, we avoid life.
Wake up, death whispers. Welcome back to the Healing and Human Potential podcast, where today we're exploring the magic of the healing arts using our most challenging emotions

for our growth and evolution. And so we're going to share on this episode how to break through

your creative blocks, not let the fear of negativity hold you back from sharing and

finding your authentic voice, as well as discover the power that lies within gentleness.

Our guest today, Ali Michelle, is somebody who has an incredible gift for alchemizing her experiences, taking moments of pain and transforming them into something beautiful. She's a poet, a creator, and a deeply sensitive soul, somebody who's been able to create profound art from life's most challenging experiences.
Let's dive into it. I'm so happy you're here.
Thanks for having me. Yeah.
There's so much I'm excited about diving into. One of the things I wanted to talk about was I know like emotions can be super overwhelming for people.
When I used to work as a psychotherapist, people would say, I don't want to go there, Alyssa, because if I go there, I'm gonna throw up. And so I bring my trash can.
And I'm like, I got you. And I know that if people don't know how to navigate their inner world, they get super overwhelmed by their emotions.
And so with emotions, we want to allow them, we don't want to indulge, we don't want to avoid just like really welcome whatever's here and it moves through. But as a creative, I'm so curious about what tools or what ways you find self expression or writing as a form of healing, like how do you use creativity and healing together? Well, I think about creativity like lightning.
And if lightning strikes, it can incinerate a whole tree and start a wildfire. But if there's a lightning rod, it can channel the power that's coming through.
And so creativity is like that for me. If I have a lightning rod, then I'm not going to get incinerated by my own feelings or my own experiences.
You know, I can put it into a poem or a story and then my pain becomes beauty.

That's incredible. What would be like a practical? Do you find that writing is a great expression

for you? So like when that lightning strikes, like what walk us through your process so we can

see it or sense it. Everyone has their own lightning rod.
For me, it's definitely writing.

I think poetry gets my strongest emotional charge, you know, for my personal experience. But I'm always so surprised by what comes out in fantasy because I'm not in control and my belief is suspended.
And so these really deep parts of my subconscious actually start to bleed into the story. And I think it's very therapeutic, but it's kind of through like a sneaky backdoor way.
Okay. I'm not in control.
I love this statement. So when you're writing fantasy, what is that process? It's like, walk me through, because I can really hear some people writing from their more logical mind, from more fear and control.
How do you tap into more of the subconscious or get out of your own way? Is it through practice? Has that always been easy for you? I have so many questions now. No, it's not easy.
I think writing is uniquely a Mount Everest for people because there's no instant gratification. You have to be self-disciplined.
You have to validate your own work. You know, people want like a publisher, some blue check verification that says you are an author, but there is no such thing.
And I'm still questioning it. And, you know, I have four books published, so I think it's an ongoing process.
But for me, it feels like the story's there. Like if I just put on some instrumental music and I lay down and I close my eyes, I just start to see a movie play out in my mind.
And I noticed that if I'm not writing, then my imagination just turns into anxiety. Oh, yes.
I get this. As a therapist, it was like, if you're not expressing the unconscious, then it will turn into depression, anxiety.
But as you do some of that deeper shadow work, it comes out as creativity. That makes perfect sense.
Yeah. And there's nothing too ugly or too honest for creativity.
There's nothing too ugly or honest about creativity. So it's like, I really hear that you follow the thread of honesty and the pulse of what's creatively wanting to emerge in the moment.
Yes. Yeah.
I think that's the only reason that I actually feel like a three-dimensional well-rounded person is I can't make good art that's not honest. And there are varying degrees.
Like there are some times where I can feel there's still a layer of film between me and what I actually want to say. And it takes like a constant digging.
But I genuinely think it's my lifeline to my spirit.

Yeah. Yeah.
And I'm thinking of anybody that is channeling, you could say as one way of saying it, just letting life flow through them as this instrument, it gets more developed over time. That could be through coaching, therapy, dancing, writing, any form of art.
I think as we get out of our own way, it's nourishing for us. And that gives us the sense of aliveness, which then makes us want to do more of it.
I'm having an insight as we're talking right now. That's amazing.
I'm like, thank you for sharing this. Because I think the things that either burn us out or we don't enjoy is when we're getting in our own way about it, when we're in our mind about it, rather than what you're speaking to is the art of surrender, the art of allowing it to move through and listening deeply and being more honest.
My theory is the reason there's so much resistance to writing is because your ego does have to kind of dissolve for a second in order to let something come through. Like if someone's really in a performance while they're singing or performing a poem or dancing, very little of them is actually there.
The true them. The true them is there.
And that's terrifying. So it's like a mini death, you know? Yeah.
So I know that control and perfectionism are two ways that people try to manage their fear. I'm wondering, was it always easy for you or did you have to work through layers of your own self-expression to get to where you are now? I think you have to decide the places that you love so much you're willing to struggle through them.
And I just decided this is something I love more than I'm afraid of it. So it's not easy.
And I still battle with myself every day to validate that I should sit down and write instead of answer all my emails first and go on Instagram and what it is a constant conversation. But I love it so much.
It's like a marriage, you know, I was thinking the same thing. It's like people say, do I do the work with this person? I'm like, well, you're going to do the work and it's either on your own or projected onto this person.
Do you love them enough to do the work with them? Yeah. Same thing.
I love that. So tell me a little bit of your process.
I just want to hear some of your day of how you sort of structure it to support more of your creativity and art coming through. Yeah, I do it first thing in the morning.
I think, you know, there's early morning writers and there's nighttime writers. And it really just depends whenever your inner judge is most asleep.
That's why I think it's the best time to write. So when you're sleepy at night and the world is gone to bed or first thing in the morning and your ego is not like railing you with criticism yet, it's a good time to write.
And then, yeah, I start by journaling and then I'll just go into whatever story I'm writing that day. The poetry I kind of let just arise whenever I'm feeling a strong emotion.
I don't have like a crazy discipline with it anymore. But you write motivated by the emotion.
Yes. Tell me more about that.
I feel like educational content like self-help stuff or biohacking or things like that, that can be more from a logical place. But I think if you're telling a story, your job is to evoke emotion because you're stretching someone's empathy.

yeah so it's sort of like that context switching so like being in the left brain or right brain

continuing to like for me if I I know like I don't actually enjoy writing but I I find that if it's a

lot easier for me to write after I've coached because I'm in this similar part of my brain where it's just flowing, where I'm out of my own way. Like you're saying, the criticism is gone.
Also, I find compassion really helpful to settle the critic, even if it's compassion for the critic. Are there particular practices that you've done to help you get back into the flow if that critic comes up up yeah when I was a little girl my mom she's an incredible artist and she taught me to just like paint at all these different angles so if I was painting a face she'd have me start upside down and then sideways because she just taught me like you should paint right side up at the very last moment that way your mind won't try to control what it's supposed to be and so I think my approach to to writing is similar, where if I'm stuck somewhere, I'll write the last scene first, or I'll change the weather or the character's perspective.
But I have to do something where I'm no longer white knuckling the story. Because I think we can be very hard on ourselves as writers, too, where we're like, this first draft has to be good.
And that's just not fair. No one's first draft is good.
That's for you. Yeah.
Yeah. I remember I was coaching a perfectionist at one in the Enneagram and she was really trying to write.
And I just said, write a bad book. And she's like, and so as soon as I gave her that permission, she's like, I'm not going to write a bad book.
And then it helped her get going. So what I hear, and especially after four books, right? So you've probably learned some things along the way of just like, yourself get it out and then is your editing process a lot heavier afterwards yeah yeah and I think my first draft is getting better as just like I find my voice and hone that more and more but my first drafts are embarrassing and I tell writers this all the time like you should never compare your unpublished work to someone's published book because so many fingerprints have touched a published piece of work like editors and friends and peer reviews and like all of these hands have helped sculpt this thing that will live on forever and so when you're writing your first draft it should be enjoyable and fun and it's not always going to be but like that is the intention totally yeah and I'm just thinking for people that are trying because I know finding your voice and sharing your voice is a really big common theme, even if people aren't writers.
Is there anything that you would share with people that are kind of struggling around finding their voice or sharing their authentic truth? I don't think anyone's voice is 100% original and so something that has helped me is reading a lot of different books like I don't just read fantasy books I read

poetry I'm I'm out here reading everything from J. Moss to Marcus Aurelius to like Khalil Gibran.
I mean, it is kind of a melting pot. And I think the more you do that, the more you're taking pieces from everywhere and it will create a unique mosaic that has your fingerprint on it versus reading the same type of book in your category or trying to sound like one specific author.
So that is a practical tip. No, that's a great tip.
And then, then it will naturally be unique and different. Yeah.
Yeah. And for people that may be like really stuck in their mind, I know for me, when I've told myself to let go, it doesn't work.
So like I would just guilt myself to say I should be letting go when I'm not. So like if there are people that are really holding on and trying to find their voice or kind of white knuckling it you know one thing they can do is to either hold on tighter I find because eventually you're just gonna let go or you can notice what inside of you already let go even if the mind or ego can't or just questioning some of those fears I know questioning those fears helps me let go of those coping mechanisms.
So it's just more authentic and natural. But I think just helping bring compassion to our humanity, because wherever we are in the process, even with this podcast, like I've been doing this for about a year.
And I, when you're talking about the creative flow and genius, I have that in coaching. And so I want to be able to bring more of that let go into this or into other forms of art and just, or dance, you know? So I'm just thinking about how I can be compassionate with wherever I am in any journey that I'm doing and also start questioning some of the fears so that I can feel a little bit more surrendered in it.
I think that's a huge piece is having a conversation with fear, like you said, and exploring it to its end, but also being willing to be embarrassed and fail. Like I was at our mutual friend Peter's event and there were these three guys there and they were just kind of live doing spoken word spontaneously.
And one of them was like, okay, now your turn. And I felt this thing rise up in me where I was like,

no, I don't do that, surely not.

No one gets to see my process.

And then I leaned into the moment and I did it

and I was so bad, like really cringe, embarrassing bad.

And it was so good for me

because then the next day I got to my computer

and I was like, huh, I didn't die from that.

That's right.

And I think every time you go, I didn't die from that, you'll explore new territory. Yeah, yeah.
I had a similar experience at another girlfriend's house where they were doing this improv. And I was like, part of me just wanted to hide.
It was a small group. And they were all going up to like act out something.
And I was like, No, no, no. And push myself.
I was terrible. And for me, it was one of the first times that I left there without being like, like I need to really script and like make sure that I'm better next time or don't do those things like all the manager protector parts the three all of the three all of my patterns the three in the anywhere I'm sure he knows we had this beautiful dance at Peter's house one time when it was just like under the stars and just like brought so much magic where it felt like we got to connect in such a beautiful way but But yeah, just doing the work over time, this has muscle memory.
So those patterns don't kick up anymore. Because like you're saying, I didn't die.
Failure is a part of success. And as we make space to just feel embarrassment fully without taking it to mean anything about us or an identity, it's easier to navigate.
Yeah. And it's actually a

good sign that you're stretching your artistic muscles, because if you keep staying in the lane that you've been validated for the most, it will grow stale at some point. Yeah.
And I like the smorgasbord of like getting inspired by other artists or other art forms to kind of like as if they're tuning forks, because even for coaches, just thinking about what's outside the coaching industry how can we get inspired by nature or life to really keep growing our edge in whatever art that we're expressing in the world? Yeah, that's a really good point. Having an art form that is not something you're trying to monetize or part of your career or your social media life in any way.
Like I'm learning the violin right now. Oh, wow.
And I'm screeching. And I will be screeching for the next three to four business years, but it's making me a better poet because I'm just getting used to being comfortable with not being perfect at something.
Yeah. Yeah.
And not, and not even just coming back to the coaching world. It's like, that's important because then we also have empathy for our clients who are learning something new.
And how do we be with ourselves in the process? And do we find joy in it? And do we not identify with it?

And can it be like screeching, like just totally okay.

And I think also just supporting our children and doing the same.

So it's like it affects all areas of our life.

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Another thing that I just wanted to comment on, because I see you as somebody who is gentle and soft, but also badass and bold. Like you have this complexity and this range where without you even needing to say anything, you own that.
And I think in our society, especially through the patriarchal conditioning, we've really emphasized that strength is through toughness. And we've kind of forgot the power in some of the feminine and some of the softening and the gentleness.
I'm just curious to hear how you think about some of the feminine in your business and work and what you see as the gifts in it to highlight that conversation, which I feel like you already embody the full range, but in balance. I do my best to combine that masculine honesty that just cuts through but with like the feminine grace that comes with that because i have found if i'm in grace it melts the person across from these defenses versus if i try to bulldoze them or just come in swinging yeah but i think sometimes the feminine because because we're so resilient, we can absorb so much.
And so without that honesty paired with it, then we can get taken advantage of or stay in bad situations. So I really try to balance the two, but I find if I'm just in grace, I usually, it opens up someone's ears.
Yeah, I hear the grace and that softness relationally. But I also hear that that fierce that piercing that like bold taking action comes through with pushing your own edges and taking the opportunities and saying the honest truth.
Is that right? You're a great therapist. Thank you.
It's beautiful to witness. And I think it's a great, I think it's you embody that.
And so I want to highlight that because I think that that's important for people to have that blueprint that you embodying your full range is a gift and you know what's required in the moment and that you can pull out that part of you instead of just having it as a default setting of pleasing, which I think pleasing is weak, not bad. It's a usually a coping mechanism based on our childhood because we needed to please somebody so they weren't angry.
And so there's compassion for it. But how can we step into our loving, which is powerful, which is sometimes love looks fierce.
And so I think highlighting this, it also amplifies to people what their unique combination is. I think, yes, we have the opportunity to develop our full range, but not everyone's, it's not all balanced.
Like some people have more of that masculine, some more feminine, but like being able to access that full range and to see more examples of that and to see a dynamic expression as you, I think it's really beautiful. Thank you.
I guess I'm always looking for the screeching violin moment, even in work relationships or romantic relationships. Like if I feel there's this part of me that can't fully say the thing, then I'll just make myself say the thing, even if it's awkward and stumbling and it feels like I'm in an ice bath or something.
So I think it's that of being willing to be ungraceful in your grace, if that makes sense. Yeah.
I feel like I'm getting to know you deeper through hearing that. And I love that.
I feel like I lean towards the edges in a similar way that you do. For me, I like meeting my edges because my freedom's on the other side of that.
And then my life's not so small. So as I meet that, I feel like life gets more powerful and expansive and free.
Yeah. Doing the hard things that you resist actually makes the rest of your life so much easier.
And actually resisting hard things is what hurts. Yeah.
You know, it's like resisting an emotion is what hurts, not the emotion, it's the resistance. And so I think your willingness to go there, I think, also probably shifts your relationship with your emotions.
I'm wondering, have you always been like this? Or has it been something that you've had to unlearn and relearn in your life or in your creativity? I was not like this at all. I was the most shy, docile person.
I did a yoga training at 17 just because

I couldn't public speak and I just was not very good at talking to people. And so,

so much of my communication skills comes from exposure therapy, honestly.

There's something called reality therapy, which is much more like Dr. Phil, you like,

give it to him straight and like, go for it. It works for some people.
It also works for a lot of

like correctional systems. And then other people need a more soft approach because they have a

I'll see you next time. fill, you like give it to them straight and like, go for it.
It works for some people. It also works for a lot of like correctional systems.
And then other, other people need a more soft approach because they have a lot of that internally. Maybe they got militant parents or authoritarian parents.
So just for people to like, see what works for them. But I, I, I really want to highlight for people that it sounds like you and I run towards the difficult conversations because we know the freedom on the other side of it.
For people that may feel scared to speak their truth or to say the thing that they're honestly feeling and they may want to avoid, what would you say to them? Like what encouragement might you give them? At least in my life, every magical thing has come to me because I've been willing to free fall into those moments and I always think it's going to end one way and then it ends up coming out so much better than I thought even if a situation ends like a working relationship or a personal one there's always some other magic on the other side of that and I think of in the 40 rules of love which is the story of Rumi and Shams he's like my turning upside down. And he says, well, how do you know the side you're used to is better than the one that's coming? And so no matter what, the truth is going to get you where you need to go.
I love that. Is there a story in your life that kind of grounds that opening and that magic for you where it may be there if you weren't like that, and then how it's kind of changed your life? I think I've just started over a lot of different times.
Like I lived all over the world for a year by myself. I just traveled around.
I was a travel journalist. And then I taught yoga and became a craniosacral therapist.
And then I became a poet. And then I was like, I'll just try and be a fantasy author.
And so I think that willingness to start over my entire life has been so rewarding because there's nothing I haven't used. Everything I've done has cross-pollinated and been of service to the next thing.
I really hear that you follow your aliveness. There's willingness to sort of die in a certain way, a certain identity, and to meet yourself deeply and know that you are going to get through it and reinvent whatever's true for you.
But I think a lot of people, even with purpose, they're like, what's my purpose? And I don't know if you got caught in that, but in you following what was true for you, it's oftentimes in hindsight that we look back and we're like, oh, it all makes sense now. It was all leading me to this moment.
So if people are just listening, they're in the anxiety of thinking that they need to know what their purpose is. As we follow our aliveness, there's a moment where it clicks.
And in hindsight, it all makes sense. But you also have this like adventure spirit.
You also like love, you're this enthusiast also and like want to dive in and explore edges and your truth, which is really beautiful. Yeah, I could sit in my house for a month, meditate, or I could chase a tornado.
It could go either way. We're not sure.
Keep it interesting.

Yeah.

I know that being online, there can be a lot of feedback that we get when we share our art or our work.

And I'm curious how you have navigated hearing either criticism within yourself or in the world and still not let it hold you back from sharing your authentic truth because everyone is going to have that. And so I'm wondering how you sort of navigate that.
I mean, you will be criticized. Like I laughed so hard.
Someone did a book review the other day that said it looked like every Nickelodeon show was dumped into a book or something. And I was like, that's funny.
I'll take it. But then there's someone else that's like, this whole book changed my life.
And there's always going to be the this and yeah and so it's inevitable that you'll be criticized and ridiculed and burnt at the stake digitally um it's also inevitable that you might change someone's life and create levity in their world but I think what has helped me is I have the people in my life now whose artistic opinion I really trust who I know love me care me, and are going to be really, really honest with me because they know who I can be as a writer. And so now that I have that, I don't feel like I'm just reading comments to try to get some sort of validation for my work because who even is that person? Yeah.
You know? Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, I think some of us know that here, but then I feel like it, once we feel good about it, there's less of the searching for other people. But I also hear that you have mentors and people that you respect and that you're getting honest feedback from them because you, and I think that also comes with maturity of just the evolution of your art and your craft.
So it's like normal and it's okay if people are stuck on the comments and And there's some kind of bias where if you get like 100 compliments and one criticism,

you focus on the criticism.

That's the only thing you'll remember.

Yeah, totally.

Absolutely.

And so for me, when something stings, and it's usually somebody saying something on YouTube

every once in a while, if somebody says something, I will look at what got triggered inside of me.

And I try not to manage and control it outside because I can't control control what people say. That's inevitable.
I've learned that pretty quickly. And so I'll look inside and say, what was tender? What got triggered? Because if I can heal that at the root, then other people can't push on that wound and it can't hurt.
But it's like I'm also willing to feel the thing that got triggered in me. Does that make sense? So it's a willingness that kind of softens it.
And so I'll tend to the part of me and then I'll say, is anything in what they're sharing true? And if I find it, like, let's say somebody says, Alyssa, you're a bitch. And I'm like, okay, I can find where I've been a bitch.
Yeah. Okay.
I'm not trying to defend the ego. I get it.
Yeah. I totally was a bitch in this situation.
I hear that. Then it softens it, because I find that it's that defense that actually hurts.
And then if I can't find what's true and what they're saying, which I don't know that I ever haven't, because I have a pretty open mind, even just the consideration to open to feeling what I was trying to defend away from is what softens me. And then I feel like I join with them.
I feel like, and it's not about being a doormat. It's not about not having boundaries.
Like you can still say that doesn't, that doesn't feel right. Or that's not appropriate or, you know, let somebody go from your life if they're being abusive, but the inner work like that we can change.
And it's not really about their opinion, but it's our story about their opinion. And it's about my resistance to what I'm hearing that actually hurts me is was a game changer for me and was like, oh, this is my power.
They can be however they are. And I can find my truth no matter what.
And that's brilliant, because what you're speaking to is that it is in your control whether or not you put weight on their comment to like, for example, I feel I've written poems and shared them for the past eight years. So there is a level of confidence that I'm not a master or perfect, but I know I've touched enough people that I can get to the place I need to get to.
Whereas if someone gives me criticism about a fantasy book, which I'm much newer at, it's going to sting so much more than if someone says my poetry is garbage. Yeah.
But I'm putting more weight on this thing. Yeah.
And I want to double click on what you're saying, because it's like when we feel insecure about something and somebody shares their or they share a comment that isn't kind, then it would kind of activate that part of us that feels insecure. And it also makes sense when we're new at that as a craft that we're developing those skill sets.
But over time, I'm just thinking as me as a coach, it's like over time, people saying something like, oh, you're not a good coach, it wouldn't affect me because it doesn't match my truth. You know, like if somebody just calls and like, you're not a great astronaut, I'm like, great.
Okay, I wasn't trying to be it doesn't touch me. But if there's something that I feel insecure about that they speak to that can just highlight my own insecurity.
And we can have the tools to tend to that part. And just know that that the beginning of developing a new craft, a new art, and that that's okay to be gentle with ourselves

in the process. You have to be.
And it just illuminates to your point, if there is a truth

there in it, or if that's where you're putting your weight. Yeah.
Do you tend to not share your

work with people for feedback in the beginning of, you know, venturing in a new art form? It depends. Like the violin.
I mean, that's just for me. But the first draft of my book is just for me.
The second draft I share with beta readers and I make sure I have a diverse perspective that I'm getting. So there's someone who loves fantasy books.
There's someone who hates fantasy books and only likes history books. There's a poet and a screenwriter.
Like there's people from all these different lenses. And then I try to see if they're all giving any similar notes across the board, because most of the edits that are given to us are from someone's personal bias of how they would have written a book.
Yeah, that makes sense. Or how they would have done the song or whatever it is.
But if there's an through line or an echo throughout all these people from different perspectives, then it's definitely worth looking into and changing. So I think it's very helpful to get a lot of different perspectives.
So you're not just in an echo chamber of your mom being like, this is the best thing I've ever read, sweetie. Yeah, and again, to keep relating it to coaching because there's a lot of my audience, they may be insecure before they have their first package and they can't put all the weight on one client, they have to have a few clients go through it to see are there any themes.
It's not just like one person's experience. It's got to be a few people's for it to have more validity.
Yeah, that makes sense to me. I'm curious if there has been in terms of like using your art for healing purposes specifically, has there been like for me, like, I don't know if you've heard of freeform writing.
Yeah, very common process of just getting the energy up and out. I remember I was teaching people how to overcome emotional eating because I was really stuck in that for a while when I was starting to do my healing work.
I didn't learn about the window of tolerance, meaning big T and small T trauma. And I just went deep because my the intensity of my personality is like, let me go all into something.
Let me be the best. Let me be the let me go focused.
Yes, all of that. And so I was like, I'm in this master's program in spiritual psychology.
I'm going to go deep. And I re-traumatized and re-triggered myself.
And so I went too deep. And then I started coping through emotional overeating.
And I didn't know that at the time. And so I would just, I was eating really fast.
And then I found a way to actually overcome it. And I thought I wasn't online.
I just was like, oh, this was really helpful. I think this would serve people.
So maybe 15 years ago, I shared a video on YouTube sharing how to overcome the, how I overcame my emotional overeating. And it's worked for a lot of people.
So I was like, this will be helpful. And the first comment that I got on this was this guy that said, first world problem.
And I was like, oh, and it like stung me. I was like, I just was taking my time.
I just wanted to share this video. And then I sat with what he shared.
And I was like, first world problem. I'm like, yeah, totally.
Like it is a first world problem. And I said a hundred percent.
And then he laughed, but he was matching and nearing how I, when I resolve my defense, right, it's kind of settled. And so I just find that there are, but why I bring that up is because of the criticism, but also the, one of the tools that I use to overcome it was just free form writing for 10 minutes, not picking up the pen, you don't reread it, you throw it away.
And then I offered myself compassionate self forgiveness, just really flooding myself because I was using food to express all of the fear and all of the anxiety. And oftentimes with emotional overeating, I don't know if you've ever had this, but you eat really fast.
And so it's almost like the ego doesn't want to wake up. So I started using the pen to help express the emotions.
What was this really deeply about for me? And so I didn't use carbs as a way to mitigate it. And I didn't need to judge that.
So just taking the pen to paper, expressing it, and then offering myself compassion. And then I told myself if I want to eat the chips or whatever it was, it was totally okay to have it, but slow down and enjoy them.
Or if I didn't want to have it, then I was I told myself if I want to eat the chips or whatever it was It was totally okay to have it but slow down and enjoy them Or if I didn't want to have it then I didn't make that good that I didn't want to have it because it was that right wrong guilt pattern that was looping me in it and so that was one process that supported me in The inner work that started showing up in my outer world and i'm wondering if there are Because, because you could also like dance, right? Like dance the energy out so that it's not blocking you creatively. It's not coming out in these unconscious ways.
I'm just curious if there's any art forms that you found when you're feeling a lot of emotion or more overwhelm in your world that you have used any writing or any practices that have supported you in coming back to center? Yeah, two specific writing exercises I have done many times for my healing. One is if I'm really angry and there's unresolved issues with someone, I write a fuck you letter to the person and I just write down every ugly and awful thing.
And I got this from my cranial cycle therapist years ago.

And then you write one back as though it's first person and see what of the parts of

that letter you've done to yourself first.

Ooh, that's powerful.

Can you unpack why that's so powerful?

That's great.

I love that.

Because in the times I've experienced deep betrayal in my life, I can track I betrayed

myself before that or I abandoned myself before I was abandoned. I can always trace it back to me.
And the other thing I do is sometimes I'll write it back as though it's them talking to me. Like if it's someone that I can't talk to in 3D, I kind of just close my eyes and meditate.
I'm like, what would they say? And then it's really surprising and healing what comes out because we can't always get closure from a person, but we can give ourselves that. That's right.
So that's a big one. And then with grief, I also write letters as though people are still alive and they're still in the room.
And I think that's good for heartbreak, too, of like, you miss your person. You have to take space, but you can still write letters and tell them everything that happened in your day.
You know, you can still tell them about the traffic or the amazing moment that you had watching a sunset. And I think we want to just cut things off and shove them away.
But if you can keep all of the love and grief alive in your heart, it actually in the long run makes it easier. I 100% agree.
And I think, yeah, people compartmentalize, but then if you avoid it, you just postpone it. And so the openness to, I'm hearing, write these letters helps you stay integrated within yourself.
And everything that you thought you got from someone else was already yours. They just evoked it inside you.
They didn't give it to you, so they can't take it away. And so I love this kind of writing companion to help you keep that alive and know that it's still here.
It comes back from the Gestalt psychotherapy practice where you can also do open chair therapy where you talk from one aspect and then say if somebody has passed or they're not emotionally available, just like you're saying, I can speak in this chair. And then let's imagine you're not there.
And then I would, have you heard this practice? No, this is cool though. This is amazing.
So if you have two parts of you, let's say this is how you do it. So if you are like, I want to be in relationship, but I'm scared of being hurt, or I want to grow my business, but I'm scared of being seen or share my work, whatever it is.
So if you have two parts of you, you can talk from one aspect, giving it voice in first person. And you just say, I really want to share my work on stage.
I want to speak my truth or whatever it is. And then you sit in the other chair and you embody this other aspect that is the opposite of the other part.
And it might say, you're not ready. I'm going to protect you.
So what I do is I give both of them expression, but I try to go to the heart of what they both want. What's the deeper intention? Usually protection, right? I want to grow, but I want to be safe or I want to love, but I don't want to be hurt.
So how can you, once they express, you find the deeper intention and then how do you move forward honoring both of them? But the same practice still works with somebody that's passed or wasn't emotionally available. So a similar line lineage in terms of where it comes from, gestalt psychotherapy, but you give voice to, I did this with my ex, where I was with my husband, Emilio, but where he was my partner.
And I could feel I hadn't totally grieved him yet. And it was ready just to come up.
And so he was a musician. I turned on a song and I just sat down and I just spoke from the part of me that hadn't fully let go and like this deep belly cry and let it come up.
And then I was just fully all in with my husband. So it's like some of these energies just need to be honored and allowed.
And then they, and then they move on. And I was almost like in my, my, my relationship with my husband like this, like sitting to the side.
And as soon as I did this, like two minute process of just expressing the grief, I was a hundred percent all in. I kept being like, where's my ring? Like I was so excited.
I was avoidant a little bit and then I was all in, but I had to grieve that, you know, that deeper pain. I'm imagining you've navigated heartbreak.
Is there any, either a story or a nugget that might help people as they kind of navigate their own heartbreak, whether it be with a person or a project. Yeah.
I mean, I think, and I've said this a few times, like grief and death show us how much we are capable of loving. That's the gift in it.
And if you're navigating heartbreak, you know, I think part of it is, it feels like you lost a limb all of a sudden and you have to learn how to go about your life without this integral part of you if you're in a close, intimate relationship. And so I think honoring that by writing the poems, by writing the letters, by speaking to them in prayer as though they're still in the room, like these are all really beautiful things.
like I still play my grandma's favorite music and I'll just dance in the kitchen and And I, I don't know, it's just these little ways of keeping the people we have lost, whether through heartbreak or death, alive with us, light their favorite candles, you know, just, I think treating it like they've slipped into the next room and not like you've lost them forever. That's beautiful.
Yeah. How do you know they're not in the next room? We have no idea.
Yeah. Just all made up in the mind.
Yeah. And what I hear is that you're honoring them and the love you have for them and what they've evoked inside of you by doing that.
Yeah, because if your love suddenly has nowhere to go and you can't give it to this person, it's going to feel like agony. Yeah, and that heartbreak actually opens our capacity to love more if we go there fully.
I think it's when we resist it that it gets in the way. Yeah.
There's almost this, one of the lines I wrote was, when did heartbreak become a shameful thing instead of a badge of honor that we tried for something? Beautiful. I feel like you spoke, you speak in poetry.
So I just, I love listening and I'm like, want to pause and like really let that land. It's just the way you're wired.
It's the way you've trained and it's really beautiful. It's like a perfume in the air, you know, just by just your work.
It's just the way that you're stringing words together. You're catching me on a good day.
It's not always like this. I doubt that.
I'm thinking that there are people that feel like they're too sensitive or maybe have been told that they're too sensitive. What would you say to them so that they can really feel the power and their sensitivity? Don't you want to feel alive? Like, don't you actually want to smell the flowers you walk past and the sun on your skin and the music that you're listening to and the different instruments in the song? Like, don't you want to lean into the person in front of you what else is the point but to be sensitive yeah and if they're navigating just being too much like take care of yourself you know there are tools and you can yeah find the gifts in that because i think the people that are sensitive have some of the deepest medicine to share because they're really tuned in.
Yeah. Into a world that is pretty numb.
You just need a lightning rod. And for me at a public gathering, I'm like, oh, I'm just going to go to the bathroom, take a few breaths.
I call it the toilet temple. Yep.
Get myself a pep talk and go back out there. You can always come find me if we're at a party.
Yes, exactly. The toilet temple is genius.
So the lightning rod though, I want to make sure I get that. That's not just inspiration and like the moment.
Like ground that for me because I want to make sure. Yeah, I think it's also a way of channeling emotion.
So whether the lightning is creativity or inspiration or a very deep emotion, it needs something to move through. So whether that's writing or dancing or a toilet temple, like sensitive people just need places to move that.
They don't feel like they'll be incinerated by it. Yeah, that makes sense.
And also just opening their awareness. So they're also not just so trapped in their body so it can move through the body.
Yeah. I think it's really helpful.
Sometimes just opening the back of the heart can let the energy move through, especially for women who tend to hold a lot for themselves or their community.

I thought you were, when you said lightning rod,

I think you thought you were talking about like those shiners,

like people that are super shiny and like finding them at the party instead.

You can always find me and we'll dance.

Yes, we can always start a dance party.

But I think too, the gift is like, my friend will joke, she'll be like, ah, you left the building whenever I just disassociate in a social setting.

Are you like Irish goodbye? You just pat you? Yeah, yeah yeah I think I've seen you do that before yeah I will do that but I try to be gentle with myself when I go into a freeze because I'm like that's just my go-to response but I know when it happens and I know how to like get myself back and unpack it and so I think that's the other piece of being sensitive is like it's not always going to be be a perfect emotional processing. But if you can unpack it after, I mean, you could speak to this way more, because you're actually professional at this.
I just have a pen. No, I mean, we serve in the same and, you know, different directions, we come at it in different directions, and I love and, and having friends that might know that about you to be like, Hi, I'm a safe place, let's dance or let's move the energy or get lit up by the lightning together or, or, or take care of yourself to do the Irish goodbye and whatever we need, just not to, not to get down on ourselves for our sensitivity.
Cause it really is a gift in the world that is so numb. Yeah.
And that sensitivity is what helps tune us into bringing more magic or depth to the world in a way that will serve other people that even sometimes people don't know that they need it by us being sensitive to what we need, it also serves them whether they're conscious of it or not. And so, yeah, I love the sensitive souls.
I'm one of them. I think you're one of them.
And I think it's what brings beauty out into the world. Yeah, we found each other right away.
We did. We should.
I was like, I want to I was like, I was thinking that we were going to go somewhere to dance. I was like, I just want to move my body and dance.
You're like, okay, right here. I'm like, okay, yes.
Under the stars. And then everyone joined us.
And then everyone joined us. I'm gonna start dancing on the table.
It was super fun. And just following that aliveness is I think that's the thing that I am getting from this conversation is just to keep following that that impulse that creative impulse of what was wanting to express and I think of Eckhart Tolle's work of like like Picasso like think like great works of art are bigger than the person it's what moves through them and so I feel that coaching and I want to do more because I've been more in the business for a while and also teaching, but just to align our lives with whatever that creative or flow is like, it could be surfing, it could be creating sushi, it could be creating music, you know, but just that, I don't know if it's just flow state, but it's just getting out of our own way out of that self consciousness.
Yeah, I think it's, it's a willingness to be in the free fall. Because even when you're coaching, I'm sure you have like your Rolodex of things you could say to someone or tools that you could give them versus like, I've never said this before, but let's try it.
Let's try this one practice. And I don't know, maybe it's a screeching violin or maybe it's magnificent.
We won't know until we try. I love that.
I love that permission. And it feels like that's embodied in you.
And I think that's the key to being willing to run experiments in life. Because if it's a failure, it doesn't mean that you are a failure.
And I think that's why kids grow so fast because they don't get so caught up in the mind about it. But that aliveness, I think, is the thing that I'm, as we're talking, I think that I'm receiving so much from this.
So thank you for that. Thank you.
I'm like, oh, I want to align my life with what brings that aliveness. And I don't think that I always have.
And I think, you know, I think that roots back to childhood of doing things that were, I felt like I needed to do from more authoritarian parents. And there's no judgment about that, you know.
and there's also like, oh, I get to do it differently. Now I don't have to do anything.
I don't want to do I'm an adult. And, and yet those conditioning, those programs run pretty deep until we're aware of them.
Well, I think to noticing what you've mastered, because for you, I can tell it's like, you're a perfectionist. You're amazing at what you do.
You're so precise and articulate and clearly have spent years mastering this thing and putting in your hours. So maybe for you, it is the free fall.
For me, it's actually discipline and structure and sitting down and leaning more towards your side of the fence. And so I think we all master a certain part or aspect of that.
And it's nice to swing to the opposite sometimes. Totally.
Yeah. I talk about Phoebe and Monica.
So I've got like the Phoebe who really did do the free fall quite a bit and was like smelly cat, like traveling Bali, just meditating, didn't care. You had a smelly cat season.
I love it. I mean, probably 10 years, if that's like a decade.
And then went over to Monica more this like type A, but it really, it was this pendulum of like wanting to sink my teeth into all of life to know the divine in form. Not just like it being separate.
It was just like this more tantric, more feminine embrace of all of it. And sometimes, you know, I think we have codes and medicine for each other.
But it definitely pendulumed and it's been integrating for sure. But I think it needs checks and balances sometimes because it can get rigid and then it can get like that.
The over feminine is just no structure and a little bit too loose. And then the hyper focused is no intuition and downloads and a lot of burnout.
And so I heard this physicist, I say this all the time because I love it so much. He said, it's not just just do do do.
It's not just BBB. It's do we do we do we do.
And that's where you get the dance. Yeah.
Yeah. And it's like being and doing like, you know, stillness and stilettos, both S and.
That's a great line. Stillness and stilettos.
I started writing a book. That was it.
And I didn't finish because I don't enjoy. I didn't enjoy it.
Well, that's fine. That's genius.
It's fun. Yeah.
A foot in both worlds. That is so you, though.
Yeah. That feminine grace and then also the.
Yeah. And I do think people that are looking for more structure, sometimes they resist it because they don't want to feel trapped because they really value freedom, which is like yes to freedom.
And just finding as an experiment, do I have more freedom in that structure? Just as an experiment to say, if I have some structure, does that support my freedom? Is that the container for the creative flow? Or people that are wanting more of the expression, like what I hear you saying is, are you willing to meet the parts of you or the energy of embarrassment or whatever the sensation is that essentially that we're running from because it's just a feeling right it's not a fact it's just a feeling like oh I don't try this because maybe then I'll feel failure or I'll feel hurt and am I willing to and then that's where that like aliveness comes can I just say you are so good at catching like the most minute details and then stretching them out like nothing gets past you. It's really amazing.
Thank you. Yeah, I feel like I'm in the aliveness and the flow with you, which is really a nice space to be.
And I've been sharing with Matrix, who's been doing the podcast with me. And I was like, I want to have fun with this.
I want to have like, what's my own creative expression? I originally thought I was going to do more coaching sessions with it. I'll probably bring that back because it's my art, my love.
It's a way I feel like I can serve humanity in a deep way. And just finding the flow with it.
So thank you for that acknowledgement. Yeah, we need off seasons from our main craft, I feel like.
Elizabeth Gilbert said that where she's like, I finished a book and I won't write for six months. And I think that's important to you to give yourself a break because you're still becoming a better artist or coach, even when you're taking a break from what you love.
Totally. Yeah, I think everything can be used for our art.
And, and yeah, but just this like theme of following our aliveness, following my aliveness. So I'm going to take some of that from this conversation.
I hope other people are just thinking about what can you take from this to live into a little bit more? And like two more things I want to share. So for your, for your day-to-day rituals or practices, what have been, is there either something that's been a game changer for you or something that you will always come back to as like steadfast.
For me, stillness is really important, like having some form of stillness and reflection so I don't get too caught up in the mind. Meditation, it can be inquiry.
Those are two practices for me. Are there any that help you kind of have this ballast in a ship so you don't get taken by the winds of life? It's really just nature for me.
I lived on Kauai for five years. And so that's just how I tend to connect and process and let go of the day.
And so whenever I'm done working, if it's too cold, I'll just go on a hike. Otherwise, I'll hop in the ocean.
But I make sure I have something where I'm just not plugged into everything that's happening. And I'm actually plugged in.
That's even more important now. I'm like, let's go on a hike.
I'm going to come over to Topanga. Let's go on a hike.
I'm like, I'll let you do the ocean. It's a little cold for me.
It's a little cold plunge. But yeah, just having that, I think that's even more important that we have those rituals.
I see some of the Jewish community do that. And I'm always like, what a beautiful practice to really just unplug and be in community and be in nature and be with each other.
I think that's even more important now. I'm hearing that for myself.
Okay. Last thing I want to ask you.
So with your poetry, and then I want to see if you're open to sharing anything of your art and poetry, what do you hope people walk away with or experience when they hear your work? I think the energy of what I'm, no matter what I'm saying, is to just kind of earthquakes shake off the day-to-day fluff of just ordinary living and be like, you're alive. And how wonderful is that to be here? Yeah.
you're so beautiful. Like I'm literally moved to tears.
Like I feel like this purity of your spirit of just being like, we're alive. This is a miracle.
This is amazing. Don't forget that.
And through the poetry, I'm hearing that somewhat of a pattern interrupt to remind them of the miracle that life is. I'm a pattern interrupt.
Yes, you are. Yes, you are.
I was talking to my husband last night. I'm like, wait, so we all agree with the big bang that everything came from nothing and we don't believe in miracles and magic? Like, what? So yes, you are a pattern interrupt.
I feel that. This is actually one thing I've been doing the past six months.
You said the word miracles. I write down a miracle that I see every day.

And I've done that for six months.

And I look back and I see all of this beauty that's happened that I would have overlooked.

And the miracle could just be, I really love the way the light peeked through the leaves.

Or it could be, I got the most beautiful text from a friend that moved me to tears.

Like it could be small, it could be big.

But I think that's a cool practice because it's not just gratitude. It's like noticing not what you're given, but the beauty that just exists in front of you.
I love that. I love that.
Yeah. And then what you focus on expands.
So you see more magic, more miracles in front of you. Because you might say, oh, I've had such a hard month.
And then you look back and you're like, actually, there's a lot of good things in there. No, totally.
bias, we got to open our perception to really work on expanding our mindset. So we don't go into those sort of scarcity, negativity bias and grooves.
You are a miracle. You are magic.
I'm so in love. I feel the same with you.
Oh my goodness. So just in closing, are you open to sharing a poem or a part of a poem? Anything that might feel relevant to share with us? Yeah, I think the one that feels relevant to this conversation is about death, if you're open to it.
Yes, please. Love the death portal.
Oh, great. Okay.
It is a little intense, but you know, it's fine. No, no.
We're the audience for it. I figured.
Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. What if this was your last breath? I'll say it again so you actually think about it this time.
What if this was your last breath? Take a breath with me. And as your lungs taste oxygen for the final time, watch as death unravels the fabric of your story beneath his bony fingertips to take an honest look at the life that you lived.
You'll watch,

with wide eyes, the chapters that unfold revealing your mark on earth from the very first second that your body was birthed. Every love, every loss, every trial, every triumph, the pages are turning quickly now and you'll beg for more time as all these precious memories flash across your eyes.
He pauses

And slightly turns his head

Then asks you about your as all these precious memories flash across your eyes. He pauses and slightly turns his head,

then asks you about your biggest regret.

Is it that you held back in life, he says.

In a moment the truth could have tumbled from your lips,

did you water it down or swallow it?

Were you brave in love?

Did you give all of your heart or did you keep part of

it tucked away afraid that if it were seen you'd be left alone in the dark? Were you courageous

with your choices or did you convince yourself that comfort was the smart thing and that was all you were capable of as though every atom and cell in your body isn't an impossible love story of creation? Did you hold on to things and allow your heart to become hardened by your suffering? Or did you let forgiveness soften the sharp edges of your pain because all that destroyed you was only ever revealing what was indestructible in you? When we avoid death, we avoid life. When we avoid death, we avoid life.
When we avoid death, we avoid life when we avoid death we avoid life when we avoid death we avoid life wake up death whispers because he can see that we only have a few magic seconds here so now there's only one page left before you exhale that final breath he eyes you curiously and says,

what would you do if I left this page blank?

Would you stay awake?

Or would you allow yourself to remain owned by what you were afraid to face?

If I let you go back, will you hold back?

Or will you finally live the life you wish you had?

Exhale. Wow.
My stomach gurgled. I'm so sorry.
I'm like still taking that in. I just, you are like a sword.
There's like this, like I just has this and the visual that I was, that was coming to me is the sword cutting silk like you go straight to the heart of truth and there's a fierceness that is potent and straight to the heart of it what a gift what a gift thank you my goodness someone once said i'm a butterfly with a rapier, like a little medieval sword. I mean, I got the sword vibes and the grace and the gentle, but like all through love, all through this pattern interrupt, waking people back up to themselves.
I just got transported. So thank you for that.
And I know that my audience is going to want to stay connected. I know that you also have a new book you also have your poetry talk to us about your books what you're up to right now I have three poetry books that's the most recent one the words left unspoken and it has the most like chutzpah as my grandmother would say um and then that's the fantasy book next to you that just came out in spring and it kind of blends spirituality with a hero's journey with a strong female lead so everything you love about the alchemist and harry potter with a badass woman oh hell yeah yeah i hope this gets made into a movie i hope so too hell yeah yeah and so where do people buy the books anywhere amazon um tiktok shop wherever books are found yeah and we'll put the links in the show notes below.
What a gift. I'm still, my heart opened, my mind opened.
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Yeah. Thank you so much for doing this work that changes the world starting with yourself.
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