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Hi everyone, Jonathan here.

Heavyweight will be back with a new episode next week.

But in the meantime, we wanted to share with you an episode of another show that we really like.

It's called Death, Sex, and Money, and it's hosted by Anna Sale.

On the show, Anna interviews her guests about the topics that we usually tend to shy away from in polite conversation.

Things like the titular death, sex, and money.

I recently sat down with Anna.

As I was sitting here, I was jotting down some last-minute questions, and the first one that I wrote down was,

did you ask inappropriate questions as a child?

Like I'm imagining you approaching your dad's friends and asking them how much they made for a living.

I don't think I did that.

I definitely wondered.

Or how much sex they have or when they were planning to die.

Anna has a real gift with people, whether it's talking to a TV weatherman about losing his job after a sex photo leak, A new father about the surprising results of a paternity test, or to actress Ellen Burston about the illegal abortion she had at the age of 18.

It's amazing what Anne is able to pull from her subjects.

The concrete questions that other interviewers might find too crass to ask, I just ask it.

You know, all of us deal with hard things and uncomfortable things.

And rather than retreat into our own feelings of shame around it, let's create a little more conversation and connection.

Yeah.

And

I think that you're a very good listener.

Thank you.

Did you, did you, I mean, just out of curiosity, parenthetically, did you have a schooling for that?

Listening school?

Yeah.

No, my school, I think, was being in a big family growing up.

I was on the quiet side in a loud family.

So

I think that trained me for like, it's like

listening and being able to take in a lot, but also I feel like I'm kind of like a little, maybe like a a little bit like a cougar, like who's like waiting for that opening.

And then I'm going to like,

you know, strike.

It's very primal, it sounds like.

I know.

I'm like, what's the metaphor?

Someone who really wants a bloody piece of meat.

The episode we're about to play is about a professional mover in New York City.

Our producer Zoe Azule was thinking about episodes where we can catch people in a moment.

So it feels like you're talking to them when something is happening.

Yeah.

And she

was sort of like movers are constantly doing that.

They're showing up when people are at that moment of joining together, coming apart.

It's, it's change.

And so she started to just kind of look around at New York City movers and she found this mover named Adonis.

What I think is really interesting about him, he's a professional mover.

That's what he does for work.

And alongside that, he advertises his services as

being willing to show up and help survivors of domestic violence get out of unsafe situations for free.

Yeah.

Well,

I guess this is the part where I say, let's listen to the episode.

And you can find death, sex, and money wherever you get your podcast.

Thank you.

That was a very enthusiastic throw, I feel.

It's as enthusiastic as I get.

But I'll give it another go.

Let's listen to this episode of Death, Sex, and Money, which you can find wherever you get your podcasts.

Coming up right after the break.

I am, yeah, I'm 6'4,

248 pounds.

My employees use the word brolic

a lot when they see me pick up stuff.

Like I literally would just pick a sofa up over my head while two of them are struggling with it, you know, and I'll just say, I got it.

And I'll just pick up the sofa bed over my head and start walking with it.

And they go, oh my God, he's so brolic.

This is Death, Sex, and Money.

The show from WNYC about the things we think about a lot

and need to talk about more.

I'm Anna Sale.

Adonis Williams is a mover in New York City, a job he started more than 20 years ago when he saw a woman crying on the subway.

She had two kids with her and all their stuff in trash bags.

And I asked her what, you know, what was wrong.

She explained that she had to

make a choice between leaving the bags of clothes and

carrying the kids.

Adonis had a van, and he offered to move her for free.

I'm that way.

Even on the way here, I stopped to get me a cup of coffee, and it was a mother with her daughter in Dunkin' Donuts.

True story.

And the little girl was crying because she wanted the

strawberry sprinkled donut.

And her mother was just going in to get a coffee, you know.

And I said, ma'am, I'm going to pay for your coffee.

I'm going to pay for a donut.

And that's just the way I am.

If I see, you know, people sad or crying, you know.

But I do have one rule.

I don't take care of

the homeless in other states.

Like I travel too much, but if somebody comes up to me in a window in Texas or Tennessee, I don't give any money.

I know it's sad, but I just can't take care of the world.

But in New York City, if you come up to my window, I'll give you $2, $5,

and that's every day, all day, anybody.

Adonis is often in other states because a lot of his moves are long distance, but they mostly start in New York City.

One, two, three, lift

on that

On a Saturday afternoon, a few months ago, Adonis was moving the belongings of Ms.

Dixon.

She had just retired from her job as a home health aide and was leaving the Bronx after many years.

Producer Zoe Azule met them at a storage unit where they were packing up her stuff.

What's the moving plan today?

Where are we going?

We're going down south, North Carolina.

What's there?

Family.

And what are you going to miss about about New York?

Not much.

I mean, it's in the middle.

Okay.

From the storage unit, they drove in Adonis' truck.

Ms.

Dixon riding shotgun, Zoe squeezed in the middle, to pick up the rest of Ms.

Dixon's things at her apartment.

1322.

1322, got you.

Adonis has lived in New York City his whole life.

He knows each neighborhood and how to maneuver through them in a big truck.

Miss Dixon, have you ever ate that Spanish restaurant right there?

Which one?

Right here.

No, never.

I guess you never ate there.

I used to eat you a while back.

When they got to the apartment, there was not much left to pack up.

I had seven boxes in.

Only seven boxes over there?

Yes, a fan on the TV.

Oh,

they already packed up anyway.

Okay.

Make me feel guilty about taking your money with such a small job over on the other end.

I'm going to have to give you some money.

I had to pay you for the exercise today.

Over his 20 years in the moving business, Adonis has seen people in all sorts of transitional moments.

Retiring, getting married, being priced out.

Sometimes a person is ready with their stuff in boxes, eager.

Other times, Adonis and his team have to help a person pack.

It's a mover's job to make this moment manageable, to compartmentalize, and help a person move on.

This is not a service Adonis had growing up.

Well,

I remember moving as a child between Harlem and the Bronx.

And

we never hired movers.

I didn't even know, you know, I would just come from school and we'd be in a new place.

My dad took care of everything.

And we just did it with

pickup trucks, cars, you know, whatever we could, you know, whatever relative could come by.

We never ever hired a moving truck.

I talked to Adonis after he'd gotten Ms.

Dixon's things to North Carolina.

He came into our New York studio the morning before another move.

It was still summer, Adonis' peak season, when he does about a move a day.

He used to pack in three moves a day.

That's a lot of flights of stairs, tight corners, and long drives.

I just did

back-to-back Florida, Texas, Tennessee.

Massachusetts, and now I have a Vermont coming up next week.

I've been to every state except for Seattle, Washington, and Oregon.

And when you are driving these long-haul moves, do you go by yourself?

Sometimes, sometimes I do.

Or sometimes I pick up my dad.

And he will.

Yeah, my dad, he comes and he does the driving.

You know, even at 70 years old, he's still a hell of a driver and still moves furniture and picks up boxes and stuff.

He loves to go.

And are they still living in New York City?

No, no, no.

My parents eight years ago moved to North Carolina and I moved them and they said it's because I gave them the cheapest price.

Not because they wanted to patronize you.

Because I said you moved them for free.

You won the bid with free.

Okay, got it.

Yeah, I moved my parents out to North Carolina and I visit them anytime I do a move going, like I said, I'm doing New York to Florida or New York to Georgia or New York to South Carolina.

I always stop it and use my parents places to hotel but yeah my dad still goes when I go up 95 he's always happy to put on his fatigues because that's what he wears when he goes yeah he likes the fact that when he is wearing his Vietnam hat and his fatigues a lot of people will say thank you for your service you know what I mean yeah And it's nice you get to watch those interactions.

That's cool.

You get to see that.

I imagine when you enter into

a home where someone is moving out,

you know, it means something in their life is changing.

Can you tell the difference between a happy move and a sad move?

Oh, absolutely.

Absolutely.

As a matter of fact, now I get the email.

Adonis, you moved me and let's say just used the name Josh into the apartment, you know, five years ago.

We're now getting divorced.

And I just want to know if you're able to help me move.

So they'll know the kind of atmosphere I'm entering.

Like I won't be like, hey, how's everything going?

And it's a sad occasion for them because they're getting a divorce.

You know what I mean?

And

so I, you know, I go in there like neutral, not taking any sides.

Yeah.

Uh-huh.

And do you find like, how often do you find that you need to sort of,

I don't know, offer some reassurance or some comfort for somebody who's having a sad move?

Usually every time, every time you do

the move, there is some, you know, they want to talk to you about it.

You become the bartender or the taxi driver that they need to, you know, vent to,

or at least tell their side, because, you know, everybody feels they go, oh, I'm not the bad person.

And you get some, I get some people, guys, both guys and girls, that say, Adonis, I really messed up.

I cheated on him and got busted.

Do you ever find yourself sharing any of your,

ups and downs with someone who's having a hard time?

Absolutely.

You can't go in and just

hear about their life and not have to share part of your life with them.

And that happens all the time.

I tell them about my mistakes because at 54, I'm always older than the person that I'm moving.

When you come into someone's home and they are packing up all of their possessions,

I imagine you see a lot of

private items.

You know, you see the way people actually live instead of how they present on the street.

What's like, does anything surprise you now, having done this for 20 years, what you come across when you're packing up a bedroom, for example?

No, now I have on my questionnaire,

When I send them a list of tips, you know, moving tips, please check under the beds for anything personal.

So that, because a lot of times the apartments are so small, the rooms are so small that the bed takes up most of the, and you can't move the bed left or right or nothing.

It's just up against the wall.

And so I asked him to check under the bed because usually whatever falls on the side of the bed or under the bed, they can't get it until the movers come and move the bed.

So I moved an Indian couple that had moved before

and was familiar with them and everything.

But this time,

they were having a baby and they needed a bigger space.

So when we moved the bed,

and a lot of the Indians and Asians, parents come on both sides when they're doing the move.

Yes, they both come like it's an event, whatever.

They come help do the packing and maybe mind the baby, you know the small children so the parents can do whatever they have to do so you know i got ready to take apart the bed took the mattress off and lifted it up and um

they're all talking to me you know and i moved the bed

and uh some used condoms were uh fell on the side of the bed and used Yeah, used, used, used.

And the girl was pregnant, which was the reason they were moving.

And so the husband had no reason to use condoms.

And so everybody's standing in the room looking at each other except me.

I just put the bed on the side and take it out.

But there was a big argument in their language.

And

it didn't end well.

You know,

she ended up staying at the place and he ended up leaving.

And it was a big old argument.

I said, oh, man.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

Oh, my goodness.

And I wonder if

I'm imagining for your clients who find you and reach out, like you,

you also have this very up-close view of how New York City neighborhoods are changing

because you're noticing who's coming in and who's coming out.

What are you noticing right now in New York?

Is there anything different or is it the same kind of march of

expensive neighborhoods getting bigger bigger and affordable neighborhoods getting smaller and the racial makeup of neighborhoods changing as that clips.

What I'm noticing is nobody, and I mean nobody in New York City can live alone.

It's very rare for me to move a place where, let's see, even if it's a one bedroom where there's just one person living there just paying the rent.

Everybody has to have help.

Yeah, the rent is so expensive and I don't care what kind of job.

I've moved lawyers and doctors and people in advertisement.

I once moved a group of girls on Wall Street in a very, very expensive building.

And it was seven of them.

They had so many walls put up, split in this place.

So it's like going through a maze to get the stuff out.

Oh, wow.

So they could afford the rent.

Yeah.

And

we had gotten there early.

And so there was still.

a few of the people sleeping.

There was actually a girl who slept by the door.

The little hallway hallway that leads to the door was her bedroom.

So she had to like fold up her bed and move it so we could start, you know,

you know, coming in and out.

I was like, yeah, that's real,

really trying to pay the rent with the seven girls in here.

Does it ever get you down, like seeing how hard people are, how hard it is for people to

find a comfortable place to live and to be able to afford to stay there?

No, no, you know, I never, it never gets me

down or nothing like that, but it makes me

realize that

I'm not the only one in that boat.

Because growing up, we were very, very, very, very, very, and if I could throw two more very on there, very poor.

Yeah, very poor.

We always thought white people lived better than us.

You know what I mean?

We lived in the projects and, you know, they lived in the Tribeca and Gramercy Park and, you know, all those places.

But now that I move people, you say to yourself wow they're really

people in new york city really really suffer in their own way you know what i mean um they just

um put up a good facade

coming up how adonis got into the moving business and why for the first five years he didn't charge for it the um frequency of the phone calls where I was trying to do Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays, people that are being abused can't wait for the weekend.

So then I found myself trying to take care of it in the morning before I went to work.

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This is Death, Sex, and Money from WNYC.

I'm Anna Sale.

By the time Adonis Williams was 30, he'd gone through lots of jobs.

Supermarket clerk, security guard, summer youth counselor, and dental assistant.

But money was tight.

He had two sons, one who lived with him.

That's why he bought his first van in 2000.

He needed a car.

And a Dodge caravan from the mid-90s was what he could afford.

I had that van because that's the only thing that they would give me on my credit.

I see.

So it like, I'm picturing like a minivan, which is what, like, you know, when you've got a couple of kids in the back, but for you, it was the car loan you could get.

Yeah, that's what I could do.

That's what they, they, I, I started off in the front with the Dodge Charger.

And then I, they, you know, I saw the Dodge pickups.

And I started thinking to myself, I had my son with me at a time, but they walked me way, way, way past all that stuff to the back of the yard with this van with the leaves on it.

Opened it up and they said, this is what we got for you.

I took it.

I took it.

Then September 11th happened.

The government was looking for people to look at the x-rays and stuff.

And so I was able to identify a lot of small stuff and they were impressed with that.

And the government hired me to train people at the TSA to read x-rays.

He worked long hours at LaGuardia.

One night after work, he was taking the subway home and noticed the woman with her two kids carrying trash bags with their belongings.

She told him she'd been staying in a shelter because her partner was abusive, but she'd had to leave the shelter.

And that night she had nowhere to go.

And so I came back with the van and I got her and the two kids and got them pizza and Hawaiian punch.

Huh.

Yeah.

And took them to my house and I gave them the bedroom and I used my living room, sofa bed.

And that's when I realized that, you know, in the shelter system, they don't really help you get in or out.

The next morning, he moved her and her kids and their things back into the shelter system after they'd reapplied for a slot.

And Adonis decided he wanted to help more victims of domestic violence move out of unsafe situations, a service he still provides today.

He placed an ad on Craigslist and put the word out.

I got some cards

and then I went around and put them to the shelters.

Now that the shelters aren't easy to find, they're meant that way.

So the abusers don't find the shelters.

And for the first five years, I didn't make any money.

I didn't get any money and I didn't accept any money for the first five years of moving.

Yeah.

Oh.

So it wasn't like a job.

It was a service that you did.

And I also have a Facebook page, still called that, a Facebook page.

How much were you helping people move?

I was only doing the job on the weekends, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.

At the Department of Homeland Security, I had 10-hour shift.

So I finished my

40 hours in four days.

So I had Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays off.

And I would just, I had the ad.

If I got the phone call, I would just move people.

Now,

the type of move I was doing was a person with bags of clothes.

They even put dishes and forks and spoons and bags of clothes.

I mean, in garbage bags.

And they would like taking a mattress and maybe a TV.

You know, it may be a TV.

But those are desperate people trying to get out of a situation where either the abuser was locked up, you know, or at work, you know, something like that.

I rushed in.

Just me and my son.

At the time, my son was only nine years old.

So it was just me and him.

I want to make sure I'm understanding the families who are trying to get away from violence in the home.

Is it primarily,

do you encounter them when they're trying to get to a shelter or moving between shelters?

Or sometimes are you

coming in when the abuser is away, sneaking in, trying to get them out safely?

Yeah,

it varies.

And now even sometimes the abuser is still there,

but now, you know, we're talking

20 years later and I have a crew now, not just me and my nine-year-old son.

So now when they see like four or five big guys come through the door, the guy is sitting there quiet and he doesn't see anything.

And we don't give him the mean face, nothing like that.

Is there anyone in your life, Adonis, that like before you were moving survivors of domestic violence, did you know anyone?

Was anyone in your life somebody who'd been through

a dangerous relationship?

Well, my parents,

my mom and my dad, you know, used to go through that.

And you know what, the weird thing is when my mom and dad were fighting and my mom would be bruised up,

it was no name for it.

We got a beating from my dad.

My mom got a beating from dad.

You know what I mean?

It was just the way it was.

And when the police came,

nobody got arrested.

They would say, take a walk around the block,

you know, or you got to cool off.

They were veterans also, and they understood what he was going through.

So they give him a break.

But once my, we got, once we got older,

I would say

between 17 and 20, and we could, me and my older brother could challenge my father.

And

because by that time we lived in Harlem and the Bronx, and we were kind of street hardened, you know, even though

I sound like an easygoing, mellow guy, I have never lost a fight on the streets of Harlem or the Bronx.

And I dare anybody to say so because I come see them, you know.

But yes, when I put up my dukes,

there was no walking away from that.

The person always ended up on the ground and people had to pull me off from him, you know.

So when me and my brother, you know, my dad, you know, he went in after my mom.

And then we...

Me and my brother closed, got my mom out of there and closed the door.

When we came back out that day in 1992,

dad never never did it again.

And he gave up the drinking and smoking and stuff like that over the years.

He's a great guy now.

But yeah, yeah,

he was military trained.

It wasn't an easy fight.

I tell you that.

The military, I learned that day, trained them soldiers very, very well.

But we had youth and stamina on our side, and we prevailed.

92.

So

you were in your early 20s?

Yeah, I'm born in 69.

So, 89.

It's like 22.

It's interesting you remember the year.

You remember when

you remember the day you have to go up against the most powerful man on the planet.

Because there's no kid who doesn't think his dad is not the most powerful person on the planet.

There's not one kid out here.

I seen my pop beat up groomed men in the street, just beat him up.

And, you know, because, you know, that's the way it was in Harlem and Nebraska.

You had a problem with somebody and you step out of the bar and, you know,

I seen him take on two and three guys.

Like, what am I going to do?

I'm 10 years old.

But my pop told me to do something.

I did it.

I saw what the other guys got.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Have you and your dad talked about that?

Recently.

So

I've never talked to my dad about that, but during a drive once, my dad had asked me

about

why I never cursed.

He asked me those.

He wanted to know why I never cursed.

And he wanted to know why I never used drugs or smoked or anything.

And we had a conversation about that.

And I explained to him.

And he wanted to know what did I do when my mom kicked me out.

Because when I was

when I, when I, when I was

24 or 25, my mom made me leave.

And what did you do?

I

lived

sometimes,

I lived sometimes in the

in the same building where we put me out of, but on the roof area.

And I still went to work from there until a friend of mine

had a studio apartment.

He was getting married, and he gave me the studio apartment.

That was my first apartment in Harlem.

And why did your mom ask you to leave?

She found out I had a kid that I didn't tell her about.

Yeah,

my first son.

She was upset and she put me out.

And what did you say when your dad asked you about why you don't curse and why you didn't do drugs?

Well, I told my dad

I didn't do drugs because I saw what it did to him.

You know what I mean?

You know, the cigarette smoking,

the drinking, how to meet him.

And I was afraid to become that person.

And I don't smink.

To this day, I do not hit women.

I do not hit children.

And I do not hit animals.

Yeah.

I never once gave my kids a spanking, and I never had an argument with a girl in a relationship, and I never hit her, and I don't hit animals.

They can't defend themselves.

That makes me understand, Adonis, when you describe, you know, being on the subway and seeing a mom.

with her kids struggling.

It makes me understand

maybe a little bit about like the

depth of feeling you might have to

want to help look out and help

a mom who needed help.

Yeah.

A few years in, Adonis realized he could make more money moving than working airport security and he started his business.

In New York City, you can get 950 bucks to 1,200 just for the one move, you know?

And so that that money started to look way better than, you know, waiting two weeks for a $1,200 check when I can get that in one day.

So the math was pretty easy for me.

Uh-huh.

Uh-huh.

You mentioned your son,

who's now an adult.

Are you a single man now, Adonis?

Yeah,

I have two boys, you know, and one is 29 and one is 33.

And I'm not married, but I'm not single.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's not like I I don't have a girlfriend.

You're in a relationship.

Yeah, I'm in a relationship.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm in a relationship.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh-huh.

Where did you meet your current partner?

I was doing a move, and she just walked up to me on the street, looking for a job and taught her to wrap furniture.

She was terrible at the job, but a pretty girl.

And I was like, yeah, you don't have to work anymore.

But,

you know,

so that's the way that happened.

Yeah.

I don't think I,

I think, you know, technically, even though we've been together like like five years, I think technically I could still get out of it because I had never officially said I'm your boyfriend.

It's just, she just happened to be around me when I'm going to the movies and dinner.

She just happens to be there.

Yeah.

So you don't live together?

No, no, no, I don't live together.

I don't want to live with anybody anymore.

I have two separate moms, so I've been through that before.

And it's not a good, it's not good.

The breakup isn't good.

They know too much about you when it's time to end.

Uh-huh.

Uh-huh.

um and i wonder adonis when you come home to your place and you look around at things that you have

you know when your work is to see all the stuff that people have and

you know

like do you

do you find that that the objects that you keep in your house

Are there a few things that you really treasure?

Or do you find that you're less attached to stuff?

Yeah, I am very less attached to stuff.

I don't think I have anything in my house that I pay for, not even my own bed.

And I got a nice comfy bed that costs a lot of money that I didn't pay for.

I got a big screen TV, one of those nice curved TVs.

I don't know what they cost, maybe $2,500 these days.

Well, I got it for free.

How'd you get that nice TV for free?

One of the clients, they were

upgraded.

Or they're moving, like they're consolidating, they're moving, they got married or, you know, or in a relationship, and they're moving, and they don't need two beds.

They don't need two tvs you know what i don't need so i get a lot of stuff all the time oh that makes sense because you're for people who are just trying to be done with moving stuff like you taking that off their hands yeah i used to i used to try and sell it uh but

um it's just too much hassle to sell it so i donated i donate all the furniture to um victims of domestic violence i still have my ad up i will take a picture of it and if it can move out i'll deliver it for free.

When you think about the next five, ten years, how long do you think you'll be working on moving sites and doing doing the moving yourself?

I think I could go based on my father, I can go at least to 75.

So another 20 years?

Yeah, but

I'm going to be the person to point the finger to lift that up

probably in the next five years, if not sooner, as opposed to actually doing the work myself.

I actually jumped, it was a four-flight walkup, I take a flight myself to this day.

And when those guys complain about what they're lifting and how heavy something is, I'll always go, come on, I'm double your age and I'm still doing it.

I'm not even sweating yet.

But when I sit and, I hope they never hear this podcast.

When I sit in that truck, I'm going, why the hell did I do that?

Oh my God, why am I still doing it?

But then when I open that truck door, I'm like, let's get back to work.

That's Adonis Williams, a mover in New York City who now lives in Queens.

Death, Sex, and Money is a listener-supported production of WNYC Studios in New York.

This episode was produced by Zoe Azoulet.

The rest of our team is Liliana Maria Percy Ruiz, Amy Pearl, Lindsay Foster Thomas, and Andrew Dunn.

Thank you to Jason Isaac for engineering help.

The Reverend John DeLure and Steve Lewis wrote our theme music.

We're at Death Sex Money on Instagram and subscribe to our weekly newsletter at deathsexmoney.org slash newsletter.

Thank you to Lori McCaskill in Brooklyn, New York for being a member of Death Sex and Money and supporting us with a monthly donation.

Join Christine and support what we do here by going to deathsexmoney.org slash donate.

When Adonis does retire, he plans to move out of New York City to the country to live close to his parents.

It's nothing like looking at the sky and listening to the crickets and having your dog.

Like, they have two dogs, but the dogs love me.

When I come by, they recognize me right away.

They didn't jump up and down like little kids.

You wouldn't believe these two dogs.

They didn't jump up and down.

They get the wagon, you know, and they love me.

So I get me my get me a dog and

live out my days in a rocking chair

like my dad.

I'm Anna Sale, and this is Death, Sex, and Money from WNYC.

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