#64 Kevin

Speaker 1 Pushkin.

Speaker 1 Hey, everyone. Today's episode is a special one, but at the same time, it does deal with mental illness and children in distressing situations.
So, take care when listening.

Speaker 2 You reach Jackie. You leave me a message.
Du Claire Les Cement Message.

Speaker 3 Jackie,

Speaker 1 I haven't heard from you in a while. I thought maybe the adoration of American Canada isn't enough for you.

Speaker 3 So I wanted you to hear all the peoples of the world, all over the world, who want to hear your voice again.

Speaker 1 Here are a few of them, Jackie.

Speaker 3 Jackie, my name is Jangos. I am from Cyprus, which is mega-far away from where you're from.

Speaker 4 Jackie, Jackie, Jackie. This is Tracy recording a voice message from London, England.

Speaker 3 Hello, Jackie.

Speaker 5 Even here in little Switzerland, the despair is great.

Speaker 3 Dear Jackie, this is a son from Istanbul. You are the only person who makes me laugh out loud.
You should definitely come back.

Speaker 4 You are the highlight of the show. It means nothing without you.

Speaker 6 Love from Aotearoa, New Zealand. Kinney Charlton.

Speaker 7 You have a lovely rest of your day now.

Speaker 1 And this is Jonathan from England, wishing you a Merry St. Peppins.

Speaker 8 Hello?

Speaker 3 Oh, I thought you picked up.

Speaker 1 From Pushkin Industries, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight.

Speaker 1 Today's episode, Kevin,

Speaker 1 right after the break.

Speaker 3 this is an iHeart podcast.

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Speaker 9 Best business plan based on a combination of advanced network performance, coverage layers, and security features. Best network based on analysis by OOCHLA of SpeedTest Intelligence Data 1H 2025.

Speaker 7 This is Justin Richmond,

Speaker 7 Maybe it's Donnie Hathaway, maybe it's Mariah Carey, that just flips a switch and you're instantly back into that warm and cozy headspace only the holidays can bring.

Speaker 7 For me, that feeling pairs perfectly with a cup of Starbucks Caramel Brulee Latte.

Speaker 7 That's their signature espresso with steamed milk and a rich caramel brulee flavor topped with whipped cream and a crunchy caramel brulee topping. It's like the sound of the season, but in drink form.

Speaker 7 And that's really what this season's about. Because this season and every season, together, is the best place to be.
Come together over your favorite holiday favorites at Starbucks.

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Speaker 1 Kevin's email doesn't begin with any small talk. No long-time listener, first-time writer, preamble.
He gets right into it.

Speaker 1 My little brother and I grew up destitute, Kevin writes, in a public housing project in Sacramento.

Speaker 1 He goes on to say that life back then was only made bearable by the presence of two boys who live next door. And this is why he's writing.

Speaker 1 Kevin hasn't seen them in over 30 years, but he still hasn't forgotten them. The two boys, his friends, Jason and Gerald.

Speaker 3 Can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you.

Speaker 1 Can you hear me? Yes, yes, great.

Speaker 1 The path that led him to Jason and Gerald is long and circuitous. Kevin begins the tale back in the third grade, sitting in class, reading.

Speaker 3 I was reading a book on the gremlins.

Speaker 1 Based on the movie.

Speaker 3 Yeah, the cover was the theatrical poster. of the movie.
And I remember it was during that moment that the teacher just said, hey, we got to go to the principal's office. And when you're a kid,

Speaker 3 that's kind of memorable because I thought initially I was in serious trouble.

Speaker 1 When Kevin arrived at the principal's office, his mom was there, surrounded by his five siblings. She explained that she was leaving their father and taking them all with her.

Speaker 3 So my dad has always been a real imposing,

Speaker 3 frightening figure because he would beat everybody in the family if you didn't really obey his commands.

Speaker 3 I never thought that he was malicious, but that he beated us because we screwed up somehow one way or another. So he would whip us with a metal clothes hanger, for example, or he would pinch us.

Speaker 3 And when he pinched us, it would go through the clothing and it would leave like half dollar sized. welts of blue and purple and greenish colors.

Speaker 1 One day, a neighbor, alarmed by a loud argument between Kevin's parents, phoned the police and Kevin's father was arrested.

Speaker 1 He spent several days in jail, and when he returned home, he seemed different.

Speaker 3 We didn't have the word mentally ill back then, but we just talked amongst ourselves that he became crazy. And by crazy, I mean like really crazy.

Speaker 3 Whatever he endured in jail must have been so traumatic for my dad. And he invented a word at the time that everything was dirty.

Speaker 1 The dirty fixation began as soon as his father arrived back home from jail. The first thing he did upon his return was to ask for a box.
He threw every article of clothing he was wearing inside.

Speaker 1 Then, standing naked before the family, he instructed his eldest son to throw the clothes away.

Speaker 3 And he goes up, he takes a shower, and when he comes back down, he he sees that my older bro brought back the box. He was telling my bro that, why do you bring the box back? Because the box is dirty.

Speaker 3 But more importantly, how did you toss out the dirty clothes? And my bro said, he just grabbed it from the box and tossed it out.

Speaker 3 basically indicating to my dad that my bro touched the clothing himself.

Speaker 3 And my dad just went berserk and he just he just beat my bro on the spot right there but that was the beginning of this crazy phase where my dad just completely lost it

Speaker 3 his dad's new obsession only increased the tension between kevin's parents and every time they had arguments we have no clue what they were talking about because they spoke in vietnamese and although that was my first native language there was a time where my dad thought that we weren't learning English well enough.

Speaker 3 He forbade the usage of Vietnamese in the house. Then again, if he heard anybody utter a single word of Vietnamese, he would beat us.
And so we dropped that quickly.

Speaker 3 But one of these arguments precipitated with my dad grabbing a

Speaker 3 cleaver. And he throws it across the room at no one in particular, but it lodged itself into the wall.

Speaker 1 It wasn't long after that that Kevin, his mom, and his siblings found themselves standing in the principal's office.

Speaker 3 We went from the principal's office straight to what I now know as a woman's shelter.

Speaker 1 Do you remember that first night that you spent there?

Speaker 3 Oh yeah, it was great. It just felt exciting.
You wouldn't know anything imposing about the shelter until you leave. That's when you see the high fences with the barbed wire over the top.

Speaker 3 Almost looks like a prison, but it was great inside. There's a giant playground or tricycles.

Speaker 3 There was a walk-in pantry that myself and my brother really loved because you could walk in and do all these snacks and instant noodles.

Speaker 1 But after a few weeks of feasting on instant noodles, my mom just suddenly gathers all of us

Speaker 3 and she had this paper grocery bag.

Speaker 3 She just tersely explains to us that

Speaker 3 two of us, two of the six of us kids, will have to return to my dad. She can't take care of all of us.

Speaker 3 She cannot keep all of us.

Speaker 3 And she said that she wrote six of our names on pieces of paper

Speaker 3 and she put all of our names in this paper bag.

Speaker 3 And she's going to draw two names. And the two names will be two kids that have to return to my dad.

Speaker 3 And I just remember my name was the first name to be drawn.

Speaker 3 And I was just,

Speaker 3 I was just shocked. I don't know.
At the time, I felt, I mean, there were six of us, two names were to be drawn. I just thought that my odds were somewhat reasonable.

Speaker 3 But looking back at it, I feel like my mom just rigged the whole thing.

Speaker 3 Because she couldn't just say outright,

Speaker 3 I want you, Kevin, and I want your your little bro to go back to your dad because I feel that the younger ones won't be able to cope well.

Speaker 3 Your dad's not going to be able to take care of them.

Speaker 3 She wanted to keep my older bro. He was just the oldest one, the favored one.

Speaker 1 The plan, as established by the drawing of names from the paper bag, was that Kevin's oldest brother and the three youngest kids would stay with their mom, while Kevin and his middle brother Tony would go live with their dad.

Speaker 3 At the moment she drew my name, I lost my

Speaker 3 mom, my siblings,

Speaker 3 and what hurt just as much was losing my older bro. I looked up to him and I would ask him all kinds of questions, everything from life to school,

Speaker 3 what color you see when you die. And I still remember his answer because he said, you don't see any color when you're dead.
But I asked him, what does that mean?

Speaker 3 What is the color of no color, that black or that white?

Speaker 3 He said, no, it's neither. It's no color.

Speaker 3 To lose him in that one fell swoop when my mom pulled out my name,

Speaker 3 let alone knowing that you have to go back to your dad who you're super afraid of.

Speaker 3 When she drew my name, I remember I wasn't the only one who was crying. We all cried

Speaker 3 we all cried

Speaker 1 kevin now has three kids of his own and in raising them he thinks back on that moment their hamster died they were crying

Speaker 3 and my partner was telling me oh they're just kids

Speaker 3 they're just kids and they don't really mean it

Speaker 3 But when she said that, I remember I cried around the same age when my name was drawn from a paper bag and

Speaker 3 that cry was still the deepest cry I've ever had in my life. So I just remembered, no, I got to attend to my kids.

Speaker 3 I'm going to bury the hamster in the backyard,

Speaker 3 set a proper tombstone and have a good farewell.

Speaker 3 I don't think their cries are going to be any lighter than their future cries when they're adults.

Speaker 3 I don't think so.

Speaker 1 For the next several years, Kevin had almost no contact with his mom and siblings. He says his mom would sometimes drop off food at his dad's place, but she was never allowed inside.

Speaker 1 Kevin was eight and Tony was six on the night they went back to live with their dad at his apartment in a public housing project.

Speaker 3 I remember he was drinking. He's always drinking.
I mean, I've never seen him drink water in my life. He's always drinking beer and eating peanuts.

Speaker 3 And that was actually what he was doing when we came back in the middle of the living room floor.

Speaker 1 Although the living room contained a big fluffy couch and some school desks, their father wanted Kevin and Tony to join him on a piece of cardboard he laid on the cold linoleum floor.

Speaker 1 It turned out that since they'd last seen him, their father's obsession had only intensified.

Speaker 3 My dad set some rules. He said that don't ever touch these desks or the couch because they're now dirty.

Speaker 3 I mean, we weren't going to question him, we didn't want to get beaten.

Speaker 3 So we ended up doing exactly that. A lot of these areas around the entire apartment just became dirty, untouchable.

Speaker 3 Over time, a layer of dust accrued everywhere that we were not allowed to touch or walk through.

Speaker 3 I got this pen, where a little thick pen with the different colored tabs on the top. Yeah.
Where you can change from black to blue to red. Yeah, I remember those.

Speaker 3 It was a really, it was a prized possession of mine's. And I remember my dad, my bro, and I were on our living room floor again.

Speaker 3 And my bro was holding the pen and he was trying to change one of the colors, but it it flung out of his hands and twirled around and it eventually settled a few feet away from him in this dirty zone and at that moment that happened as a eight nine year old i just knew that my pen was gone even though it's literally just three feet away from us my bro and i looked at each other We both looked at my dad and my dad just gave us that kind of solemn shake of his head like, I'm sorry, boys, but that's a terrible loss.

Speaker 1 So you would just see the pen sitting there?

Speaker 3 Yeah, and then it would be absorbed by the dust. Over time, it would just become covered with dust itself.

Speaker 1 Even when their father wasn't home, Tony and Kevin didn't dare step into the dirty zones.

Speaker 3 I think we were also afraid because if you ventured into one of the dirty areas, you would kind of leave like literal footprints into that dusty area. It would be pretty obvious.

Speaker 3 And so I remember one time a policeman entered our home because there was some kind of robbery and the cop was trying to find this person.

Speaker 3 And I remember his face the moment he stepped in like, holy crap. Like he was asking me,

Speaker 3 you guys live here?

Speaker 3 And he was trying to search the house. And I was pleading with him.
I was like, please don't, don't go over there. Don't open that door.
And

Speaker 3 this side closet was part of the dirty zone. And I didn't want to get in trouble.
And thankfully, I remember the cop just acquiesced.

Speaker 1 When Kevin speaks of that time in his life, it says an accumulation of losses. The loss of his brothers and sister, his mom, the loss of all the rules that made reality reality.

Speaker 1 Which is why he still remembers the one real gain from that time. Friends.
Those boys, Jason and Gerald.

Speaker 3 They were a white family living with their single mom. Jason was witty and funny.
Gerald was kind of goofy looking, but lovable.

Speaker 1 Gerald was Tony's age. Jason was Kevin's.
They had video games and a mom who was nice to them.

Speaker 3 Every morning we would wake up, we'd go outside, just yell out, Jason, Gerald, what are you up to? And he would come back out, groggy-eyed, wiping their eyes. We would just hang out all the time.

Speaker 1 In a life that was filled with significant, often traumatic events, the time Kevin and his brothers spent with Jason and Gerald was notable for just how unnotable it was. It was simple and fun.

Speaker 1 It was time spent just being a kid, building secret passageways out of cardboard boxes, racing bugs through obstacle courses, and climbing the highway retention wall to watch cars speed by.

Speaker 1 They swam at the public pool. They played with firecrackers, blowing up snapple bottles in the park.
Then there were the comics Kevin made.

Speaker 3 It might have been a

Speaker 3 smorgasbord of different characters I drew at the time, like one of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or Batman or Bart and Garfield, or all four of them in the same comic, who knew.

Speaker 3 They offered me a quarter for every comic book I drew and gave it to them. So I did that and I used the quarters to buy myself candy.

Speaker 3 Hanging out with them was always a blast for 12 hours a day.

Speaker 1 Did you ever have friends like that before?

Speaker 1 No, no.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 it helped soften my bro a nice polite situation living with our dad that we could hang out with Jason and Gerald.

Speaker 1 Jason and Gerald were the only people with a window onto Kevin and Tony's lives. Quite literally.
Their apartment window looked directly in on Kevin and Tony's window.

Speaker 3 And I remember one time my bro and I would take a bath and we didn't have towels and we were shivering and we ran back to our bedroom and we were trying to put on our clothing.

Speaker 3 But it's really hard to put on clothing when your body's sweat.

Speaker 3 And the next day, Jason and Gerald would come up to us and say, hey, why were you and Tony dancing on your bed naked?

Speaker 1 Why didn't you guys have towels?

Speaker 3 I don't know. We just didn't have towels.
You know, we didn't have a lot of things at kids. We didn't have a refrigerator.
That's a wild one.

Speaker 3 That's hard to imagine, but the refrigerator was part of the dirty zone. And the refrigerator worked? I think it was plugged in, yeah.
We just couldn't use it.

Speaker 3 And so whenever we purchased food, we would have to consume it within that day, including a gallon of milk. My dad believed in giving us milk.
And I remember my dad thought he had a genius idea.

Speaker 3 He didn't want to waste any of the milk.

Speaker 3 So he told me and my bro, just jogging place outside so that we would want to drink more milk and that didn't bode very well and we ended up vomiting all the milk out there.

Speaker 1 I imagine if Gerald and Jason had been watching from their window, they'd have seen their little friends looking like they were in some milk-sponsored version of boot camp.

Speaker 1 But no matter what unbelievable things they saw and no matter what unbelievable things Kevin told them about off-limit refrigerators or pens or couches, They didn't belittle him, didn't tease him.

Speaker 1 They accepted him.

Speaker 3 They never doubted me when I told them these things. I did wholeheartedly believed it.

Speaker 1 At a time when Kevin and his brother felt so doubtful of their own reality, so isolated, Jason and Gerald were not only allies, but a check on their sanity.

Speaker 1 They were always there until the day they weren't.

Speaker 3 Tony and I would go home one day and they were gone. They were just completely gone.
Their home was cleared out.

Speaker 1 Kevin's father said that Jason and Gerald's mom had died. And so that very same afternoon, the boy's grandparents came and took Jason and Gerald away to live with them.

Speaker 3 Our friendship just suddenly got severed. There's no farewell or anything like that.

Speaker 3 We just went from hanging out all the time, being best buddies, to one day just not even seeing them.

Speaker 1 People had left Kevin's life before, but Gerald and Jason didn't leave. They vanished.
And when someone vanished in the early 1990s, they vanished. No cell phones, no emails.

Speaker 1 But the boys were always with him. Like in college, when Kevin's father died, his thoughts turned back to Jason and Gerald.
how they must have felt losing their mom.

Speaker 1 Kevin's an adult now with a family and a career in biotech. Yet anytime he's introduced to a Jason or a Gerald, his mind always leaps back to his Jason, his Gerald.

Speaker 1 So now, 30 years later, Kevin wants to find them, the two boys who are the only witnesses to the hardest part of his and his brother Tony's life.

Speaker 3 I've always wondered about them and where are they up to? Are they all right?

Speaker 3 How are they doing, first and foremost? Did they get over that kind of grief and loss?

Speaker 3 Because I can't even imagine losing your sole parent at that age

Speaker 3 because they always referred to themselves as white trash.

Speaker 1 They called themselves that.

Speaker 3 They did. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Always in a joking way. But every time I read about, like, for example, the opioid epidemic where

Speaker 3 a lot of rural whites were hammered,

Speaker 3 sometimes I wonder:

Speaker 3 are Jason and Gerald Gerald okay?

Speaker 1 Do you ever wonder if they think about you as well, if they think about you and your brother?

Speaker 3 I do wonder about that.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I do wonder about that, but

Speaker 3 all that is secondary.

Speaker 3 If they're doing all right, I think that'll warm up my heart pretty well.

Speaker 3 If they're not doing all right,

Speaker 3 I want to see if I can help them out.

Speaker 3 And at the minimum,

Speaker 3 maybe just say hi.

Speaker 3 I've just never forgotten about them.

Speaker 3 And if they've forgotten about myself or Tony, you know, that's fine.

Speaker 3 That's fine. I'd just be just as happy to find out that they're doing alright.

Speaker 3 What normal friends would probably want, right?

Speaker 1 The problem is, they were always just Jason and Gerald from across the way. Kevin doesn't know their last name, and their mother's name has also been lost to time.

Speaker 1 And although he does know the brothers went to live with their grandparents.

Speaker 3 I don't even know where the grandparents reside, except for one comment that Jason made a long time ago, where he said that whenever he visits his grandparents, they would burn pine cones to keep warm.

Speaker 1 And that's why Kevin has come to me with just the names Jason and Gerald, hoping I can help.

Speaker 3 Because I I thought that your superpower investigative sleuthing abilities were going to be able to track them down again.

Speaker 1 After the break, my superpower investigative sleuthing abilities are put to the test.

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Speaker 9 With built-in security on the first nationwide 5G advanced network, you keep private data private for you, your team, your clients.

Speaker 9 And with seamless coverage from the world's largest satellite-to-mobile constellation, your whole team can text and stay updated even when they're off the grid. That's your business, supercharged.

Speaker 9 Learn more at supermobile.com. Seamless coverage with compatible devices in most outdoor areas in the U.S.
where you can see the sky.

Speaker 9 Best business plan based on a combination of advanced network performance, coverage layers, and security features. Best network based on analysis by OOCLA of SpeedTest Intelligence Data 1H 2025.

Speaker 7 This is Justin Richmond, host of Broken Record. I firmly believe when it comes to the holidays, you fall into one of two camps.

Speaker 7 Someone who loves holiday music or someone who won't admit they love holiday music.

Speaker 7 There's something about a voice you love singing that familiar opening phrase, maybe it's Donnie Hathaway, maybe it's Mariah Carey, that just flips a switch and you're instantly back into that warm and cozy headspace only the holidays can bring.

Speaker 7 For me, that feeling pairs perfectly with a cup of Starbucks Caramel Brulee Latte.

Speaker 7 That's their signature espresso with steamed milk and a rich caramel brulee flavor topped with whipped cream and a crunchy caramel brulee topping. It's like the sound of the season, but in drink form.

Speaker 7 And that's really what this season is about. Little moments of pairing, little moments of connection.
Sharing a song, sharing a story, sharing a caramel brulee latte.

Speaker 7 Because this season and every season, together, is the best place to be. Come together over your holiday favorites at Starbucks.

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Speaker 1 Kevin remembers his own address from back then. And clicking around on Google Maps, he's able to determine which house was Jason and Gerald's.

Speaker 1 But when my producer Khalila and I I start digging, the only records we find are topsy-turvy, dozens of people listed under the same address, the timelines overlapping in confusing ways.

Speaker 1 So, without much else to go on, Khalila skims the records, searching for any single women who lived at Jason and Gerald's apartment number in the early 90s.

Speaker 1 Then, using the surname she finds, she starts dialing.

Speaker 8 Well,

Speaker 3 hi, is this Jason? Hello?

Speaker 3 Is this Jason?

Speaker 3 You got the voicemail.

Speaker 9 We know what to do.

Speaker 8 Later.

Speaker 3 Wow, I really fell for that voicemail. Hi.
My name is Khalil Holt. I'm looking for a Jason who has a brother named Gerald.

Speaker 1 Khalila phones dozens and dozens of numbers, leaving messages for Jason's and Geralds across the nation. Many of the numbers she tries are disconnected entirely.

Speaker 18 We're sorry. You have reached a number that is.
We're sorry. You have reached a number that is.
We're sorry. We're sorry.
We're sorry.

Speaker 1 And while some Geralds and Jas do answer the phone,

Speaker 1 they're never the ones we're looking for.

Speaker 8 Plus, you're giving away millions of dollars and then I can make it be. No, ma'am, I'm sorry.
Wish I could help you.

Speaker 1 One Jason does helpfully text that there's another guy with the same name a few towns over. I've spent a night in jail for a warrant in his name, he writes.
Too bad your podcast isn't about that.

Speaker 1 I figure the local elementary school might have Jason and Gerald's last name on file, so I give them a call and I'm put on hold.

Speaker 1 It might give me a chance to do a little bit of freestyling while I'm waiting.

Speaker 1 Jason, he's got a brother Gerald.

Speaker 9 Thanks for holding.

Speaker 1 Thankfully, I'm interrupted by the receptionist. She sends me to the district office.

Speaker 2 Visit our website at HTTPS colon forward slash forward slash and all the district office has to offerward slash is a web address straight out of the mid-90s. Enrollment hyphen center hyphen TK-

Speaker 1 We search obituaries thinking we might find one for Jason and Gerald's mom. We post in neighborhood Facebook groups.

Speaker 1 We try phoning neighbors, messaging old classmates, submitting a research request at the public library. Nothing comes of any of it.

Speaker 1 After two months of dead ends, Kevin returns to the housing project to look for new leads.

Speaker 1 One of the last times he went back was to show his wife and three kids where he grew up, but the kids were too scared of the neighborhood to get out of the car.

Speaker 1 This time he goes alone, and it's while walking by his old building that Kevin has a realization.

Speaker 1 For Jason and Gerald to have seen him and Tony through the window getting dressed without towels that day, their address would have to have been not the one he'd originally told me, but actually one apartment over.

Speaker 1 And that new fact makes all the difference. Amazingly, we've been able to triangulate who these guys guys are, who Jason and Gerald are.

Speaker 3 Really? Yeah.

Speaker 3 No way. Yes.
Ow.

Speaker 1 But just when you whack-a-mole one problem in this life, a new problem rears its ugly mole head. Even though we found Jason and Gerald, we're not hearing back from Jason and Gerald.

Speaker 1 After sending both brothers letters, Gerald's bounces back and Jason's goes unanswered. I try Jason on LinkedIn, but still, nothing.

Speaker 1 Maybe the name Kevin no longer means anything to them. Maybe they forgot the friendship altogether.

Speaker 1 I can't find a phone number for Gerald or Jason, but I do find one for Jason's wife. And so I leave her a voicemail.
When I get no response, I try texting. Still no response.

Speaker 1 So I call again, and this time, the phone doesn't even ring. Fearing my number has been blocked, I ask Kevin to phone, but when he tries to leave a message, my name's Kevin.

Speaker 3 I've been childhood friends with Jason and his brother.

Speaker 3 Oh,

Speaker 3 I couldn't even leave a voicemail.

Speaker 1 It's no longer feeling like Jason is simply forgotten. It feels like he emphatically doesn't want to talk.

Speaker 1 Although Jason's a no-go, I still have one more shot at reaching the younger brother, Gerald. He has a Facebook.

Speaker 1 So this is where I'm thinking like maybe the most direct way to do it would be for you to reach out.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I don't mind. It's just that I don't even have a Facebook account, but I can definitely make an account, I suppose.

Speaker 1 When we check back in the next day, Kevin tells me that he made a profile and added one single friend, Gerald.

Speaker 3 And I just sent him a message. Are you the Gerald with the brother Jason? This is Kevin with the little bro Tony.
We used to live right across from each other and we were really good friends.

Speaker 3 He just replied immediately.

Speaker 9 In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T-Mobile knows all about that.

Speaker 9 They're now the best network, according to the experts at an OOCLA speed test, and they're using that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage.

Speaker 9 With Supermobile, your performance, security, and coverage are supercharged. With a network that adapts in real time, your business stays operating at peak capacity even in times of high demand.

Speaker 9 With built-in security on the first nationwide 5G advanced network, you keep private data private for you, your team, your clients.

Speaker 9 And with seamless coverage from the world's largest satellite-to-mobile constellation, your whole team can text and stay updated even when they're off the grid. That's your business, supercharged.

Speaker 9 Learn more at supermobile.com. Seamless coverage with compatible devices in most outdoor areas in the U.S.
where you can see the sky.

Speaker 9 Best business plan based on a combination of advanced network performance, coverage layers, and security features. Best network based on analysis by Ookla of Speed Test Intelligence Data 1H 2025.

Speaker 7 This is Justin Richmond, host of Broken Record. I firmly believe when it comes to the holidays, you fall into one of two camps.

Speaker 7 Someone who loves holiday music or someone who won't admit they love holiday music.

Speaker 7 There's something about a voice you love singing that familiar opening phrase, maybe it's Donnie Hathaway, maybe it's Mariah Carey, that just flips a switch and you're instantly back into that warm and cozy headspace only the holidays can bring.

Speaker 7 For me, that feeling pairs perfectly with a cup of Starbucks Caramel Brulee Latte.

Speaker 7 That's their signature espresso with steamed milk and a rich caramel brulee flavor topped with whipped cream and a crunchy caramel brulee topping. It's like the sound of the season, but in drink form.

Speaker 7 And that's really what this season's about. Little moments of pairing, little moments of connection.
Sharing a song, sharing a story, sharing a caramel brulee latte.

Speaker 7 Because this season and every season, together is the best place to be. Come together over your holiday favorites at Starbucks.

Speaker 13 Are your AI agents helping users or just creating more work?

Speaker 14 If you can't compare your users' workflows before and after adding AI, how do you know it's even paying off?

Speaker 14 Pendo Agent Analytics is the first tool to connect agent prompts and conversations to downstream outcomes like time saved so you know what's working and what to fix.

Speaker 16 Start improving agent performance at pendo.io/slash podcast.

Speaker 15 That's pendo.io slash podcast.

Speaker 1 It's been an eventful 24 hours. For the first time in over 30 years, Kevin and his friend Gerald are back in touch.
The two have been exchanging messages at a rapid pace since last night.

Speaker 3 I'm still digesting all of this real time.

Speaker 3 Apparently, Gerald is in the East Coast right now. He's been homeless for three years.

Speaker 3 But he said that

Speaker 3 he's got no problems, been staying out of trouble. He only smokes cigarettes and sparingly drinks.
He stayed away from the hard drugs.

Speaker 3 Oh, and I wanted to talk to him over the phone because I'm just not a big fan of texting. But he said that he doesn't have a cell phone.
He lost it while traveling through Maryland.

Speaker 3 And he only has access to

Speaker 3 Facebook Messenger, broader internet while at the library. So yeah, it's just quite a bit to digest.
Oh, and he mentioned Jason.

Speaker 1 One of the first things Gerald did after hearing from Kevin was to message Jason. Gerald shared the message he sent his brother.

Speaker 3 I can just read it out. He said, how are you, brother? You won't believe this.
Remember Tony and Kevin when we were living with mom in Sacramento as kids?

Speaker 3 They are reaching out to us to to get to know us again and connect. We are catching up.
It makes me so happy to talk to Kevin. It's crazy.

Speaker 1 Jason responded to his brother's message, saying he remembered Kevin and Tony fondly. It turns out he was well aware Kevin had been looking for him.
He'd gotten all those messages left for his wife.

Speaker 1 But he didn't want to revisit that time.

Speaker 1 In the months to come, Kevin keeps the messenger app on his phone so he and his one Facebook friend can send long messages back and forth. And eventually, five months later.

Speaker 3 Hey, Gerald.

Speaker 8 Hey, Kevin. How you doing?

Speaker 1 Gerald gets a new phone and a conversation is arranged.

Speaker 3 The last time we've ever heard each other, we were just kids.

Speaker 8 It was over 34 years ago. I remember exactly how you look when you were a kid.
You were slightly taller than me with black hair.

Speaker 8 You had a freckle i think you had a freckle under your left eye yeah i do yeah i'm actually looking at you right now it through my mind's eye remember when we hung out at your place oh my gosh yeah we all we do is play video games i remember uh you and tony were so good at playing video games oh i would watch you guys for hours one time we had this game rigar oh i remember you sat

Speaker 3 that's right yeah

Speaker 3 and for like four or five hours you played it and you ended up beating it and my jaw was just lord you know why though huh we didn't have anything else to do me and tony no literally we were just in that place in the at home and we we didn't have anything

Speaker 8 we knew that too

Speaker 3 I remember you guys came over once, right?

Speaker 8 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 8 It's crazy because I actually still remember the inside of your house.

Speaker 3 You remember, like, didn't it look crazy?

Speaker 8 It looked like it looked like

Speaker 8 a haunted house because I remember it was dusty, like,

Speaker 8 not, not, not, not necessarily, not necessarily unclean. Unclean is not the work, but it was like nobody lived there.

Speaker 3 You remember the backyard that we hung out? It had the clothes lines.

Speaker 8 Yeah, we swing on them.

Speaker 3 Yeah, they're gone now. I guess every unit has a dryer now.

Speaker 8 Wow.

Speaker 3 And everything seemed a whole lot smaller. It just surprised me.

Speaker 3 I just thought everything was way bigger, but I think we were just so small.

Speaker 8 You know, growing up with you, I always thought that you would become like a comic book artist, like a professional one.

Speaker 8 I mean, I would pay you a quarter apiece for them because I like them so much.

Speaker 3 Remember how you would always bug me about, oh, what's the next issue coming out? When's the next issue coming out?

Speaker 8 Yes, yes. Oh, my gosh.
You have no idea. They were so good.
They were so, so good.

Speaker 1 All these decades later, Gerald still remembers the specific Bart Simpson plot lines.

Speaker 8 There was an electrical monster that Bartman would bite. You'd make them, oh, I just unlocked an old memory that I hadn't thought about.

Speaker 8 You would use your old tests and papers from school and you'd fold them in a way where the backside would be the comic book and I could unfold them and I'd see your work for school.

Speaker 3 I didn't even realize that. Yeah, but that wouldn't make sense because I wouldn't have access to paper anyways.

Speaker 8 And I held on to those for like 15 years.

Speaker 1 It turns out Gerald was out there looking back. just as much as Kevin was.

Speaker 8 I always thought of you too.

Speaker 8 Making friends with you guys was just a big breath of fresh air. I mean, at school, I was never able to make real friends.
A lot of the kids were actually really mean. I get, I got beat up a lot,

Speaker 8 but I had Kevin and Tony right across from me. I mean, those were my friends.
Those were the only two friends I actually had growing up. I really,

Speaker 8 really never made that kind of connection again.

Speaker 3 How are you doing, man?

Speaker 8 Oh, I'm okay. I'm okay.
I'm happy in life. Life isn't really what I thought it'd be, what it turned out to be, but it turned out okay.
And I am myself, and I'm happy.

Speaker 8 It's not like I'm living a life where I wake up and go to work and realize I'm unhappy, but just do the same thing every other day.

Speaker 8 Um, I'm kind of just free and by myself now.

Speaker 3 You seem to be doing pretty resiliently.

Speaker 8 That's the word resilient, really.

Speaker 8 When you first become homeless, it's scary, you know, but it's kind of an adapt or die kind of scenario.

Speaker 8 And one thing I found out about being homeless is

Speaker 8 it's a bit easier if you can blend in with other homeless people. If you can find an area that has resources and other homeless people, you're more likely to survive better

Speaker 8 and not be a target because it's pretty dangerous being homeless people don't like homeless people did you find yourself targeted yes a lot

Speaker 8 i've gotten beat up a few times but i've also been helped too i've had a lot of christians help me which is something amazing a lot of people helped me on my way good people

Speaker 1 Gerald had been living beneath an underpass in DC for about a year, but a few months ago, he decided to return home to California.

Speaker 8 I i gotten to a point where i had no contact with my kids and i missed them and i just needed to see them and i knew if i if i stay gone if i'm just out there in the world i'll never have a relationship with my kids if i don't come back now i need to see my boys i need to tell them i love them um

Speaker 8 the strange thing is The very day

Speaker 8 that they initiated the sweeping of the homeless homeless in D.C. was the day I had a bus ticket to come back to California.

Speaker 8 So I was getting on a bus right when the troops were coming into D.C., like the day.

Speaker 1 Gerald explains he'd started going to church with another friend who was homeless and that the church helped him scramble together enough money for a ticket back home to his kids.

Speaker 8 And I'm grateful that I was able to leave because I don't know what happened to all the homeless people.

Speaker 8 There were hundreds of homeless people when I was in D.C., all in that area, and they were all dealing with the same thing. It was very sad to see.

Speaker 8 Some were genuinely crazy, some were playing the system, and others were just emotionally distraught. Something happened in their family, like a kid died, and they just couldn't pull themselves out.

Speaker 1 Can you say, like, what led you into that situation?

Speaker 8 Yeah, heartbreak and lack of family.

Speaker 8 My wife left me about four years ago now. And

Speaker 8 honestly, it just got to a point where I realized

Speaker 8 that if I didn't actually go away for a while, that her heart couldn't mend or she couldn't grow and become herself. So I needed to just leave the whole area and I needed to do something for myself.

Speaker 8 I needed to go see the world. I needed to go walk.

Speaker 1 Is that how you traveled by walking?

Speaker 8 Mostly, yeah.

Speaker 1 From state to state?

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 8 Well, I would get rides, of course. I wouldn't hitchhike.
I wouldn't put my thumb out, but I would walk and eventually somebody would pull over and ask me if I needed a ride.

Speaker 1 Gerald tells me that after his wife left him, he was living in his truck. But when he decided to leave California, he swapped cars with a friend.

Speaker 8 I traded him. straight up for his jalopy car for my nice Toyota truck.
I couldn't find find work. I couldn't find a job.
I couldn't find money for my gas tank.

Speaker 8 So I could either leave my truck on the side of the road and have it impounded and lost, or I could give it away to somebody I love and try to find my way on foot.

Speaker 8 So

Speaker 8 I chose to give it to my friend Josh

Speaker 8 and

Speaker 8 I drove his car up through the Sierra Nevadas into Nevada. And then when it ran out of gas, I just started walking.

Speaker 1 For the next several years, Gerald traveled all over the country. From Nevada, he went to Kansas, then Oregon, Alaska, Tennessee, and eventually Washington, D.C.

Speaker 1 And now he's back in California, spending most of his time camping.

Speaker 8 So I'm just sitting up on a mountain right now looking down at a river. Honestly, even being back here in California, I kind of realize that I may end up staying homeless.

Speaker 8 I don't have a lot of options,

Speaker 8 but I realize I'm just happier being halfway out of the system or one foot in, one foot out, I guess.

Speaker 8 I'm more comfortable just being alone and in a crowd of people. So, like being up here in the mountains where I'm at right now, it's just wonderful.
I mean, there's nobody around.

Speaker 8 Nobody.

Speaker 1 Gerald looks after his kids a few days every week, staying at his ex-wife's house. It's a relief to see them again.
His two boys, seven and thirteen.

Speaker 8 And they're fine, and they missed me.

Speaker 3 I would think that they would miss you. I mean, you can't.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 3 You can't ever replace a parent.

Speaker 1 Something both Kevin and Gerald know all too well.

Speaker 3 I just remember taking that news that

Speaker 3 your mom had passed and that you two were just gone, never coming back.

Speaker 3 And Tony and I, we were both, man, we cried.

Speaker 3 We were heartbroken.

Speaker 3 We lost our two best friends. Didn't even get to say goodbye.

Speaker 3 It was so suddenly.

Speaker 8 Oh, in one day. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 And we were always wondering what happened. To your mom, to you two.

Speaker 8 I could tell you the story from the start.

Speaker 1 As a kid, making sense of what happened, Kevin assumed maybe Jason and Gerald's mom had a heart attack. But Gerald says no, that his mom had a heroin addiction.

Speaker 8 When I was like six, I came across a

Speaker 8 leather glove with a needle in it inside the couch when I pulled up the couch cushion. And I brought it to my mom and I said, Mommy, what's this?

Speaker 8 And she slapped my hand and took it from me. And she said, Never touch that again.
Don't dig in there, okay? That's moms. That could poke you and hurt you.

Speaker 8 So I knew, I knew about it, but I didn't know what it was exactly.

Speaker 8 And my mom would sleep a lot, a lot. Most of the time, she just sleep on the couch downstairs.

Speaker 8 But when she was awake, she was a very good mom. She always cooked for me and Jason, and we always had food.
She was always looking for us. If we were out too late, she didn't let nobody mess with us.

Speaker 8 My mom was a good mom.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's what I remember.

Speaker 1 The night his mom died, Gerald remembers hearing a thud upstairs, but he didn't think much of it. He and Jason were busy watching The Simpsons at the time, and not long after that, they went to bed.

Speaker 8 So I went and crawled into bed, and Jason crawled into his bed, and he went to sleep, and I was lying there, and I'm like, I'm going to go see if I can go curl up to mom in her bed.

Speaker 8 So I got up and I went to my mom's room and I opened the door and she was laying face down on the ground, not moving.

Speaker 8 But I had seen that before.

Speaker 8 So I didn't think a lot. I didn't know anything was wrong.
I was like seven, six, somewhere in there.

Speaker 8 So I slowly closed the door, really slowly, because I didn't want to wake her up. And in the morning, me and my brother got ourselves ready for school and we walked to school.

Speaker 8 And while I was at school at about one o'clock in the afternoon, some cops came to my classroom. I thought I was in trouble because I hadn't been doing good in school.

Speaker 8 I thought I was about my grades actually. And the cops brought me back to the house and apparently my brother had come home from school early because he was feeling sick.

Speaker 8 And he found my mom face down on the ground and couldn't wake her up. So he went to a neighbor, Lloyd and Cheryl.
They lived up the block.

Speaker 8 And Lloyd came down and checked her pulse and looked at my brother and said, she's dead.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 I didn't even realize she was dead. I didn't know.
Even when the cops brought me into the house and the house is filled with cops and my grandparents are there,

Speaker 8 nobody's told me what's happened. So I'm just looking at everybody and I'm wondering where mom is.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 then a cop comes up to me and says, we're going to take you to Burger King and get you something to eat. So a cop actually took me and my brother to Burger King in his cop car

Speaker 8 and bought us lunch. And I still didn't know what was going on.
So I'm just gabbing to the cop, like my very young seven-year-old self, just talking, talking, talking like nothing's wrong.

Speaker 8 I remember asking the cop, did he ever shoot anybody? He said, yeah, he shoots the bad people when he has to. And he had a shotgun that was mounted on close to the dash.
And I thought it was so cool.

Speaker 8 And my brother didn't say a word. And the cop starts crying.

Speaker 8 Then he brought us back, and nobody's talking to me at all.

Speaker 8 I'm like an insect on a wall or a fly. Like, I just don't know.

Speaker 8 And so my grandparents tell us, okay, we got to go get inside the car. Grandpa has some things he has to do.
So we're going to take you to Aunt Elizabeth's house for right now for a few days.

Speaker 8 So I got happy because I got to see my cousin Brian, who was about my age and like I loved him. And when I get there, my cousin Brian, he knows what's going on, what happened.

Speaker 8 And he looks at me and he says,

Speaker 8 Gerald, I want you to sleep in my bed. You take my bed.
I'll sleep on the floor. And I said, You don't have to do that.
And he said, No, you can just take it. Okay.
And I could see he was sad.

Speaker 8 And then I sat down on the bed.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 that's when it hit me. That's when I realized that mom had died.

Speaker 8 And I started crying and crying.

Speaker 8 And I cried for hours and hours.

Speaker 8 And I cried myself to sleep.

Speaker 8 After all that, my brother ended up becoming really quiet. He never really talked to me very much after that.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 I don't know.

Speaker 8 It just seems like the world got a lot colder after that.

Speaker 1 Jason and Gerald spent the rest of their childhood with their maternal grandparents, living in the mountains. I asked Gerald if they ever had any contact with their dad.

Speaker 8 No, he died before I was born.

Speaker 3 Oh, I see.

Speaker 1 I'm sorry.

Speaker 8 It's okay. I never knew him, so there's no effect, you know? Yeah.

Speaker 8 But I do know a story.

Speaker 8 dad,

Speaker 8 right before he died, he asked my grandfather for $500 because he needed to buy a car so that he could go get this job.

Speaker 8 And my grandfather didn't believe him. So he said no.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 then the next day, apparently

Speaker 8 a neighbor had come across my father's hanging body from a tree and called my grandfather.

Speaker 8 and my grandfather cut him down and looked at his body on the ground and said what a waste

Speaker 8 this is the same grandfather who about seven years later would become gerald's guardian gerald says he could be strict he had a military attitude and he was really gruff on me and jason or just you not jason so much well jason was more like my grandfather than i was jason went into the military he did very good he was in for for about eight years and went to Iraq twice, and he did really well.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 1 Jason now lives in Arizona, where he works in security. Kevin's happy to hear that his life seems stable.
But Gerald and Jason's relationship never recovered from the death of their mom.

Speaker 1 In contrast, Kevin and Tony have remained close. That Jason and Gerald haven't is hard for Kevin to hear.

Speaker 3 I hope that you can at least maintain a little bit of contact with Jason here and there.

Speaker 8 Yeah, it's spotty, but it is. It just is what it is.

Speaker 8 Some people,

Speaker 8 everybody's different. We all have our own special abilities.
We all, you know, are good at our own good things.

Speaker 8 One thing my brother isn't so good at is dealing with the past memory of my mom's death. He kind of locked it away, I feel.

Speaker 8 But it's his memories to keep, you know, and he doesn't want to dig him back up. And I think that's the big thing.

Speaker 3 If you ever see him again or communicate with him again, can you let him know that?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I never, I never,

Speaker 3 never forgot about you.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 It's all right. He didn't want to talk about it.
That's fine.

Speaker 3 I just want to let him know that. Yeah, Tony and I were were real, real sad, and I never forgot about him.

Speaker 8 I'll tell him.

Speaker 8 I'll tell him.

Speaker 1 Gerald says he was just never like his brother and grandfather.

Speaker 8 Me, I was the complete opposite. I was kind of more like the free bird, the hippie, I guess.
Got into skateboarding.

Speaker 8 I always wanted to start a skateboarding company and design my own decks, do artwork through that. That's actually what I really wanted to do in life.

Speaker 8 But I kind of put it on a shelf just because of how everything turned out in life.

Speaker 1 But he says, he did gift skateboards to each of his sons. And now, when his younger son goes out to ride his bike, Gerald will use one of the boards to skate alongside him.

Speaker 8 Honestly, I don't know what it... it really is to to be a proper dad.
I never had a dad.

Speaker 8 I had a grandpa grandpa who was kind of a dad, and I learned some from him, but to be a dad is something I gotta learn as I go along.

Speaker 8 I guess that's my biggest journey now. It's just to stay home, stay in my area, and

Speaker 8 watch my kids grow. That's what I want to do.

Speaker 1 Did you think you're going to stick around?

Speaker 8 Yes.

Speaker 8 I'm done traveling now.

Speaker 1 So it feels like it's the end of something or the beginning beginning of something new.

Speaker 8 When one thing ends, something else begins.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 8 I'm 41 and

Speaker 8 just means I have half my life to live still.

Speaker 8 After my mom died, nobody in the family would talk about it. It was like my old past life in Sacramento had been erased.
So having connected with Kevin,

Speaker 8 it's it's like validation that I did have a life before

Speaker 8 my mother died. Like I'm not the only one that remembers my mom.

Speaker 3 Yeah, likewise, Gerald. It means something to me, too, that

Speaker 3 I wasn't too crazy thinking about my childhood so much.

Speaker 3 Like someone else was thinking about it as well.

Speaker 8 That actually happened. Yeah.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 8 It actually happens.

Speaker 8 It's nice to know I'm not invisible.

Speaker 3 I'll see you in a bit.

Speaker 1 We got to cash up.

Speaker 3 I'll make a visit up there.

Speaker 8 Yes, you will have to come up.

Speaker 3 Yeah. I've never been to that area before.

Speaker 8 So

Speaker 8 it'll be a new place.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it looks like it.

Speaker 8 You will love it. I promise, Kevin.

Speaker 3 I'm sure I will.

Speaker 8 Okay. All right.
Bye.

Speaker 3 All right. Bye, Gerald.

Speaker 1 Kevin and I stay on the line to talk about everything Gerald shared. We harken back to what he said about not knowing how to be a dad, and I ask Kevin how he learned to be a dad.

Speaker 1 A lot of it, he says, comes from his partner. But also, He tried to define himself in opposition to his own dad.

Speaker 3 I didn't want to be feared.

Speaker 3 I wanted my kids to be able to trust me. I wanted to be warm and open to them

Speaker 3 and good time with them.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I guess I just wanted to do everything the opposite of what my own dad did. And

Speaker 3 I know I didn't walk away unscathed,

Speaker 3 both me and my bro, probably my entire family.

Speaker 3 I feel like sometimes I

Speaker 3 sort of like PTSD almost.

Speaker 1 Kevin tells me how when his kids joined Cub Scouts, he volunteered to be an assistant scout master. He had to go away on this weekend camping trip to be trained.

Speaker 1 When he got back home, he pulled into the garage. Everything in the house was quiet.

Speaker 3 I remember unloading the car and calling for my kids because I thought that they could help me set up the tent in the backyard to let the tent properly dry and all that, but

Speaker 3 there were no response.

Speaker 3 Noticed that they were like in the living room or something like that playing board games.

Speaker 3 They kind of nodded at me

Speaker 3 like, oh,

Speaker 3 that is home.

Speaker 3 And I just remember feeling like

Speaker 3 immensely

Speaker 3 overwhelmed

Speaker 3 with sadness.

Speaker 3 I just remember sitting down

Speaker 3 in another room on the couch,

Speaker 3 just being super removed and even wondering about why I was feeling that emotion.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 it took me a little while to process like why this black cloud was just

Speaker 3 hanging around me and

Speaker 3 I guess

Speaker 3 ultimately, what was going through my mind was: I felt like

Speaker 3 my family didn't really

Speaker 3 want me.

Speaker 3 And maybe I was envisioning that they would miss me and they would greet me.

Speaker 3 But because they didn't,

Speaker 3 I got that sensation that

Speaker 3 like I wasn't wanted,

Speaker 3 and I didn't even know how I was processing it, but

Speaker 3 it reminded me of the time where

Speaker 3 like how my mom would draw

Speaker 3 my name from that paper bag.

Speaker 3 She

Speaker 3 chose me as the first kid that she didn't want.

Speaker 3 to go

Speaker 3 but coming home to my dad

Speaker 3 and looking at me like

Speaker 3 he wished he had my older bro come home instead of me.

Speaker 3 And that was a feeling I got when I just got home from that camping trip.

Speaker 3 Like nobody wanted me.

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, it was just a terrible feeling.

Speaker 3 I remember my

Speaker 3 partner, she came back out and she saw me and

Speaker 3 I didn't know how to explain it to her, but

Speaker 3 I just told her I wasn't feeling well

Speaker 3 and then

Speaker 3 meet my family in the other room and

Speaker 3 be normal again and say, hey, what's everyone doing? What game are you guys playing?

Speaker 3 And life would just carry on?

Speaker 1 This weekend, Kevin is planning on driving out to the mountains to see Gerald, to go camping and fishing. Gerald says the fish are jumping.

Speaker 1 It's the beginning of something new.

Speaker 1 Life carries on.

Speaker 1 Now that the furniture's returning to its goodwill home

Speaker 1 Now that the last month's rent is scheming with the damaged deposit Take this moment to decide

Speaker 1 if we meant it, if we tried

Speaker 1 or felt around for far too much

Speaker 1 from things that accidentally touched.

Speaker 1 This episode of Heavyweight was produced by Khalila Holt and me, Jonathan Goldstein, along with Phoebe Flanagan. Our supervising producer is Stevie Lay.
Editorial guidance from Emily Condon.

Speaker 1 Special thanks to Chris Neary, Greta Cohn, Jake Harper, Lydia Jean Cott, and Kevin's brother Tony. Emma Munger mixed the episode with original music by Christine Fellows, John K.

Speaker 1 Sampson, and Bobby Lord. Additional scoring by Blue Dot Sessions and Poddington Bear.
Our theme song is by The Weaker Thans, courtesy of Epitaph Records.

Speaker 1 Follow us on Instagram at Heavyweight Podcast or email us at heavyweight at pushkin.fm.

Speaker 1 We're taking a break for American Thanksgiving, but we'll be back in December with two more episodes of Heavyweight. Until that time, happy American Toikey Day.
A gobble gobble to you and yours.

Speaker 1 Our walls are we repainted white in an empty room.

Speaker 13 Are your AI agents helping users or just creating more work?

Speaker 14 If you can't compare your users' workflows before and after adding AI, how do you know it's even paying off?

Speaker 14 Pendo Agent Analytics is the first tool to connect agent prompts and conversations to downstream outcomes like time saved so you know what's working and what to fix.

Speaker 16 Start improving agent performance at pendo.io slash podcast.

Speaker 15 That's pendo.io slash podcast.

Speaker 3 Hey, audiobook lovers. I'm Cal Penn.

Speaker 17 I'm Ed Helms.

Speaker 3 Ed and I are inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with our new podcast, Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

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Speaker 3 Okay,

Speaker 3 only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line.
But first,

Speaker 3 there, the last one.

Speaker 3 Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that

Speaker 3 refreshes.

Speaker 3 This is an iHeart Podcast.