#32 Vivian

Transcript

Speaker 1 Pushkin

Speaker 2 Jackie

Speaker 4 who calls at 630 on a Friday night

Speaker 1 right down wait wait wait I wanted to say one thing hello yeah do you know do you know that a new season of my show is starting?

Speaker 6 I had no idea. Listen, I wanted to wish you great luck.

Speaker 1 Is this a kiss-off?

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Speaker 1 From Gimlet Media, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight. Today's episode, Vivian.

Speaker 1 Right after the break.

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Speaker 1 This story begins back before the quarantine. A time when people didn't start conversations with, how are you holding up? During those innocent days, we started with the weather.

Speaker 13 It was minus 40 last week.

Speaker 1 Minus 40.

Speaker 13 My like front door froze shut. I had to use like a hairdryer to get out of the house.

Speaker 1 Vivian lives in Canada.

Speaker 1 And while I'm always happy to talk about Canada, White Horse is beautiful. I once had an opportunity to go there.
It's not the reason why we're here.

Speaker 1 Vivian's reached out to talk about something that happened 25 years ago that she still has questions about.

Speaker 1 The death of her uncle Elio.

Speaker 13 I grew up in Winnipeg. There's like nothing that sexy about Winnipeg.

Speaker 13 And my uncle, it was like he had just like breezed in off of like a film set. Like he wore this black leather jacket, these like tight jeans.
He smoked cigarettes. And

Speaker 13 he just emanated coolness. I don't really know how other to say it than

Speaker 13 he did. He had this swagger.

Speaker 1 Elio lived in New York City. He was a journalist and had friends who were artists artists and writers.
He gave Vivian her very first journal, which he still carries around to this day.

Speaker 1 In Vivian's memory, there was a lightness about Elio. Everything was always for a laugh.

Speaker 1 Like the time they were back visiting their family in Brazil, and Elio had Vivian and her brother fool dozens of paper airplanes.

Speaker 13 He was staying on the 9th or 10th floor of this apartment building, and it was like this really beautiful sunny day, and we like walked out onto the balcony and just like shot off like a hundred of these airplanes into

Speaker 13 the sunshine.

Speaker 13 It felt like electric and so like free.

Speaker 1 On the inside of Vivian's arm is a tattoo of a paper airplane. It's there to remind her of the freedom and lightness she felt that day.

Speaker 1 It's there to remind her of Elio.

Speaker 1 November 7th, 1992.

Speaker 1 Vivian was nine years old. It was her brother's birthday, and the family was heading out to celebrate when the phone rang.
It was Elio's roommate, a man named Marcelo.

Speaker 13 And Marcelo just said straight up, like,

Speaker 13 Elio had a seizure that's related to AIDS,

Speaker 13 and he's sick.

Speaker 13 And

Speaker 13 that was how the family found out that, one, that he was gay, and two,

Speaker 13 that he had AIDS.

Speaker 1 Elio was in his mid-30s and had never told his family he was gay. In fact, he often spoke of wanting to find a wife and settle down.

Speaker 1 Over the next few years, the illness advanced rapidly, so Vivian's family planned out visits. Vivian remembers one trip in particular.

Speaker 1 Her dad packed her and her brother into the car to drive from Winnipeg to New York, a 25-hour road trip.

Speaker 14 To my dad's little Honda Civic with no air conditioning.

Speaker 1 This is Vivian's brother, Eduardo. He's three years older than Vivian and has clearer memories from the trip down.

Speaker 14 It was like hottest summer on record. Along the way, we had to stop in convenience stores and supermarkets just to cool off.

Speaker 1 Eduardo says his father brought along a video camera and entered Elio's tiny apartment on Lafayette Street, already rolling. Elio was lying prone on the couch, not wanting to be recorded.

Speaker 14 He turned his head from us,

Speaker 14 kind of pulling the blanket up over his eyes, his head, and being like embarrassed at how he looked.

Speaker 1 Elio was thin and frail and hooked up to IV tubes. Vivian's grandparents had flown in from Sao Paulo.
Vivian watched them with their son.

Speaker 13 I remember them not touching him

Speaker 13 because presumably they were afraid to get sick.

Speaker 13 And I remember thinking that was like really,

Speaker 13 just like really weird and really sad.

Speaker 13 The family didn't really help.

Speaker 13 They didn't help like

Speaker 13 when

Speaker 13 Elliot was sick.

Speaker 13 I guess my dad's conception of helping was like, oh, I'm going to bring the kids for like five days and we'll come visit. But no one like stopped their lives to like

Speaker 13 come look after him.

Speaker 1 While the family paid for all of Elio's medical bills, the person who actually did stop his life, did come look after Elio, was the man who made the phone call that November day in 1992.

Speaker 1 Marcelo.

Speaker 1 Vivian has almost no memories of Marcelo, and Eduardo's memories are vague. Marcelo moving about the apartment, always in the background, referred to by Elio only as a friend.

Speaker 1 Growing up, the name Marcelo meant nothing to Vivian. It was only later, as a teenager, that she learned Marcelo had been partners with her uncle for 13 years.

Speaker 13 And I think part of it is because, you know, unlike an aunt, like, say, Ellie was heterosexual and dating a woman, his partner would have been introduced in that way, like, oh, well, this is your aunt, or this is

Speaker 13 a more important person in your life.

Speaker 1 Right. Elliot couldn't say, hey, this is your uncle.

Speaker 13 Exactly.

Speaker 13 But

Speaker 13 in some ways,

Speaker 13 you know, even though it sounds really weird, it's like, he is kind of my uncle.

Speaker 2 Hmm.

Speaker 1 I don't think it sounds that weird. I mean, it's sort of like, you know, if things had been different, if your uncle had married him, you guys would have had a formal connection.

Speaker 1 And instead, there isn't exactly a name for him. And as a result, you've lost that person who was so good to your uncle.

Speaker 13 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 13 It was obviously so like shamed in my family that, you know, we couldn't even call

Speaker 13 Ellie gay.

Speaker 1 The wound Vivian feels over the injustice her family did to Elio has only grown deeper over the years as she's become better able to put herself in her uncle's shoes.

Speaker 13 I didn't really clue in to

Speaker 13 being attracted to women until I was like 20, early 20s. I couldn't let myself even think about that because

Speaker 13 Seeing how the family like treated

Speaker 13 my uncle, like I'm sure it left this message with me, you know, that it wasn't a good thing.

Speaker 13 This month I turned 37.

Speaker 13 I turned 37, which is the same year that my uncle passed away. And so

Speaker 13 at this point in my life, if I had this illness, like terminal illness,

Speaker 13 and I was living on the other side of the world, and my family didn't come,

Speaker 13 you know, to help me.

Speaker 1 As Marcelo did.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 13 Yeah.

Speaker 13 I don't even know him. Like, I can't even remember like a visual of him.
And yet, like,

Speaker 13 I feel very connected to this person.

Speaker 13 I want to find Marcelo

Speaker 13 and

Speaker 13 I want to tell him thank you for looking after Elieu,

Speaker 13 for that huge sacrifice that he made.

Speaker 13 And I think I want to let him know that I have spent, you know, so much time

Speaker 13 thinking about him.

Speaker 1 After the break, the search for Marcelo.

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Speaker 9 With built-in security on the first nationwide 5G advanced network, you keep private data private for you, your team, your clients.

Speaker 9 And with seamless coverage from the world's largest satellite-to-mobile constellation, your whole team can text and stay updated even when they're off the grid. That's your business, Supercharged.

Speaker 9 Learn more at supermobile.com. Seamless coverage with compatible devices in most outdoor areas in the U.S.
where you can see the sky.

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Speaker 15 We've been made to believe that saying yes is a good thing, but I've realized there's a big difference between doing it intentionally and doing it unintentionally.

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Speaker 12 This is Justin Richmond, host of Broken Record. There's no harbinger for the holiday season like Starbucks pumpkin spice latte.

Speaker 12 At the end of every summer, the pumpkin spice latte rolls out at Starbucks across the continent like a gift from the fall gods.

Speaker 12 As if to say, sure, you're still sweating it out now, but just ahead are beanies, sweaters, and maybe even a turtleneck. It's my favorite time of year, and the best time for listening to music too.

Speaker 12 Something about the striking autumn flora and crisp weather create the perfect backdrop for headphone listening or long drives with the radio, as if you're soundtracking your life.

Speaker 12 And picking up a pumpkin spice latte completes the mood. The Real Pumpkin Spice Latte, now in season at Starbucks.
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Speaker 1 I don't have much to begin my search for Marcelo.

Speaker 1 Vivian remembers that back when he was living with Elio, Marcelo worked as a security guard at the Museum of Modern Art, but I can't find any record of his employment.

Speaker 1 When Vivian told me about Elio's old group of artist friends, though, she singled out one artist by name. a very famous musical composer.

Speaker 1 And while the composer's number isn't readily available, I do happen to have his cousin's number.

Speaker 5 Hello? Ira.

Speaker 14 Oh shit, do we have an interview now?

Speaker 1 Potty mouth broadcaster Ira Glass is cousins with minimalist musical composer Philip Glass, the old friend of Elio's I seek.

Speaker 4 Sorry, sorry, sorry. Let me um let me

Speaker 3 okay, give me a second to turn on gear on my side. Sure.
Okay.

Speaker 7 Okay.

Speaker 1 You never want to bother the people you admire, but in the back of your mind you think, okay,

Speaker 1 maybe someday, in an emergency, I might be entitled to a favor. And then you ask them to write a preface to your experimental novella published by a small Canadian press.

Speaker 1 And then you ask them to introduce you at your book launch that's only attended by seven people.

Speaker 1 This is how I felt phoning up to chop yet another branch from the giving tree, which is Ira Glass.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I just wanted to

Speaker 1 ask you for a phone number.

Speaker 16 Okay.

Speaker 1 A cousin of yours.

Speaker 16 Keep going.

Speaker 1 Do you know who I'm talking about?

Speaker 17 I assume you mean Philip.

Speaker 1 Being something of a storyteller, the mention of Philip prompts Ira to tell the story of when he and his wife vacationed with Philip and his girlfriend in Italy.

Speaker 17 He was finishing up at one of his operas, and he had an electric piano brought in and they were in a bedroom like down the hall from us. And so we would be woken up by him composing, which is crazy.

Speaker 1 And you were doing vocal warm-ups while he was doing that.

Speaker 17 Yeah, I was just practicing saying over and over, stay with us, stay with us, stay, stay with us.

Speaker 1 Ira promises to reach out to Philip on my behalf to see if he still has Marcello's phone number.

Speaker 1 Hey, before you go, can I share with you a little knock-knock joke?

Speaker 16 Sure.

Speaker 5 Knock, knock.

Speaker 17 Who's there?

Speaker 5 Philip Glass.

Speaker 17 Yeah, I know that one. I'm sure he knows that one, too.

Speaker 1 Do you think so?

Speaker 17 I mean, that's like a, can I just say, like, that's a level of fame that you or I cannot even aspire to. To have a knock-knock joke named after you, who gets that?

Speaker 12 Who gets that?

Speaker 16 You know, who gets that?

Speaker 17 Banana.

Speaker 1 A week later, Ira writes back. Philip doesn't have anything.
Which is to say, Ira concludes at the end of his email, knock, knock. Who's there?

Speaker 7 Not Philip Glass.

Speaker 1 And so, the search continues. Vivian's dad, Jacques, doesn't have a current number for Marcelo.
The last time he saw him was five years after Elio died.

Speaker 1 Still feeling guilty about the circumstances surrounding his brother's death, Jacques had sought Marcelo out. I felt that the only person who could absolve me, Jacques said, was Marcelo.

Speaker 1 But the encounter was fraught. Jacques later spoke of it with Vivian, telling her he walked away feeling like Marcelo was angry with their family for abandoning Elio.

Speaker 1 Hearing this, I wonder if Marcelo is still angry. Perhaps after all of these years, Marcelo doesn't want to be found.

Speaker 1 The only other thing I know about Marcelo is that he'd been involved in AIDS activism.

Speaker 1 After extensive Googling, I discover an article on an HIV resource site from 1998 written by a Marcelo spelled with 1L, not 2, as Vivian had remembered.

Speaker 1 Being so young at the time, maybe there are other details Vivian is misremembering. And sure enough, it's in a 1994 staffing report for the Met, not the MoMA, that I find the 1L Marcelo.

Speaker 1 He now lives in San Francisco. And in my excitement, I leave him a rambling, incoherent message about how I know this must be so weird, but I'm calling on behalf of Elio's niece, Vivian.
Marcelo.

Speaker 1 Hey, I'm so glad that you have the time to talk. The very next day, Marcelo calls back, and right off the bat, admits that his feelings about Elio's family are mixed.

Speaker 4 It's complicated.

Speaker 4 It's very complicated. It's just really, it's a complicated history.

Speaker 1 Marcelo unravels it for me, beginning at the same place Vivian did, November of 1992. It was the morning after Bill Clinton was elected.

Speaker 4 We're sitting in a coffee shop reading the results of the elections, and I had a grand male seizure right in front of me.

Speaker 1 They rushed to a nearby hospital where tests were performed, and for the next few days, Marcelo walked around in a stupor.

Speaker 1 When they received the official diagnosis, Marcelo picked up the phone and made the call to Vivian's house.

Speaker 1 Though learning that Elio had AIDS was devastating, the disease itself was all too familiar in New York City.

Speaker 1 By that year, 1992, AIDS had become the leading cause of death in American men aged 25 to 44.

Speaker 4 You remember in the 90s and 80s, you would see people who were gaunt and the cheeks are, you know, sunk. And so that was sort of like a certain look.

Speaker 4 And Elio, however handsome he was, he got that look.

Speaker 4 He had lost control of his bowel movements. He was on diapers.
He was blind. He was,

Speaker 4 I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 Marcelo was in his late 20s when he became Elio's full-time nurse. Elio was sick for three years, and just months before the AIDS cocktail became widely available, he died.

Speaker 4 Very beautifully. He died very peacefully in those last moments.

Speaker 4 It was a a beautiful night.

Speaker 4 There was this blue sky, and there's stars and a crescent moon. And as we looked up the sky, this airplane sort of crisscrossed the moon.

Speaker 1 As Marcelo speaks, I'm reminded of Elio in Brazil flying paper planes off the balcony.

Speaker 4 And we waved to Elio and then we said goodbye, and then he passed.

Speaker 1 True to Jacques' telling, Marcelo was angry with the family's behavior, especially during the last days of Elio's life. That's when things grew complicated.

Speaker 1 The family had set aside funds so Marcelo could pay for the embalming. It had to happen as soon as Elio died, before the body could be sent to Brazil for burial.

Speaker 1 When Marcelo knew Elio only had a day or two left, in the midst of so many other worries and so much sadness, he phoned Elio's middle brother, Vivian's uncle, so arrangements could be made.

Speaker 1 But Vivian's uncle didn't believe him, insisting Elio had more time.

Speaker 4 The day before he was dying, you know, I said, listen, I need you guys to release the money because this is going to happen.

Speaker 4 And he suggested that I was trying to pocket the money.

Speaker 4 And I lost it at that moment.

Speaker 4 I really

Speaker 4 just went ballistic.

Speaker 1 The family had left Marcelo the burden of caring for Elio, and now, on top of that, they were accusing him of theft.

Speaker 1 Marcelo knew he wouldn't be welcomed as a part of Elio's family, and so he did not attend the funeral in Brazil. He would later learn from friends who were present that he wasn't thanked.

Speaker 1 In fact, there wasn't so much as a mention of his name. Not at the service, nor in the death announcement.
Which is to say, Marcelo's feelings are indeed complicated.

Speaker 1 But when he looks up a photo of Vivian online online and sees her face, something is made simple.

Speaker 4 She looks like Elio a lot. She looks like Elio a lot.
She looks like Elio of all the kids. She is the one who looks like him a lot.
She looks like him. It's incredible.

Speaker 1 By the end of our call, Marcelo has agreed to meet Vivian in New York, where he can introduce her to the people and places Elio loved best.

Speaker 1 Coming up after the break, Vivian and Marcelo.

Speaker 1 Stay with us.

Speaker 1 Stay with us. Stay with us.
Stay with us. Stay with us.

Speaker 9 They're now the best network, according to the experts at an OOCLA Speed Test, and they're using that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage.

Speaker 9 With Supermobile, your performance, security, and coverage are supercharged. With a network that adapts in real time, your business stays operating at peak capacity even in times of high demand.

Speaker 9 With built-in security on the first nationwide 5G advanced network, you keep private data private for you, your team, your clients.

Speaker 9 And with seamless coverage from the world's largest satellite-to-mobile constellation, your whole team can text and stay updated even when they're off the grid. That's your business, supercharged.

Speaker 9 Learn more at supermobile.com. Seamless coverage with compatible devices in most outdoor areas in the U.S.
where you can see the sky.

Speaker 9 Best network based on analysis by OOCLA of Speed Test Intelligence Data 1H 2025.

Speaker 15 This is Amy Brown from Feeling Things with Amy and Kat.

Speaker 15 We've been made to believe that saying yes is a good thing, but I've realized there's a big difference between doing it intentionally and doing it unintentionally.

Speaker 15 ISOPER Protein helps you focus on more of what matters, like feeling your best every day.

Speaker 15 With great tasting nutrition, that's high protein and also low carb if you need that, IsoPure fits seamlessly into your lifestyle and that's why I've added it to my daily routine.

Speaker 15 I use IsoPure Unflavored protein in recipes like pasta sauce and guacamole during the week.

Speaker 15 With 25 grams of ultra-filtered protein and zero carbs plus 20 vitamins and minerals, you can boost nearly any recipe without changing the taste of your favorite foods.

Speaker 15 I've already restocked four times because I add the IsoPure Unflavored to everything.

Speaker 15 You can try the IsoPure Vanilla to blend 25 grams of protein into your smoothies or your oatmeal, or check out IsoPure Clear Protein Water with 15 grams of protein, which supports hydration with electrolytes and a light berry flavor.

Speaker 15 Enjoy more of what matters today at isopureprotein.com and get 20% off your order when you use code MINES20 at checkout.

Speaker 12 This is Justin Richmond, host of Broken Broken Record. There's no harbinger for the holiday season like Starbucks pumpkin spice latte.

Speaker 12 At the end of every summer, the pumpkin spice latte rolls out at Starbucks across the continent like a gift from the fall gods.

Speaker 12 As if to say, sure, you're still sweating it out now, but just ahead are beanies, sweaters, and maybe even a turtleneck. It's my favorite time of year, and the best time for listening to music, too.

Speaker 12 Something about the striking autumn flora and crisp weather create the perfect backdrop for headphone listening or long drives with the radio, as if you're soundtracking your life and picking up a pumpkin spice latte completes the mood the real pumpkin spice latte now in season at starbucks handcrafted with starbucks signature espresso and real pumpkin for real feels nothing better the starbucks pumpkin spice latte get it while it's hot or iced

Speaker 18 so we would shop on these blocks on broadway because there are these antique stores vintage clothing so this was the area oh this is this is area we walked around here vivian has flown to new york to deliver a thank you that's 25 years overdue.

Speaker 1 But Marcelo has his own agenda to introduce Vivian to the real Elio.

Speaker 1 And so we're in the village on a tour through Elio's old life.

Speaker 1 Marcelo points out their favorite haunts and tells Vivian about Elio's career as a journalist. The time he profiled the beat poet Alan Ginsberg.

Speaker 1 Showing up for the interview, Elio found Ginsberg in the midst of writing a poem.

Speaker 18 Alan Ginsberg starts yelling at him, saying you interrupt a moment of inspiration. This poem is gone, it's gone, gone, gone.
I won't remember a thing anymore.

Speaker 16 Yelled at him.

Speaker 1 Marcelo also takes Vivian to meet some of Elio's old friends.

Speaker 15 I am.

Speaker 3 How are you?

Speaker 1 Ruth was a well-respected New York tattoo artist in the 70s and 80s. Nowadays, her work is exhibited all over the world.
Her apartment is where Elio's New York Memorial was held.

Speaker 6 It was another aide's death. It was another terrible, terrible loss.

Speaker 6 And everybody here had experienced it or nursed somebody, you know, to the end. I mean, as young people, as people in their 30s, right?

Speaker 16 So

Speaker 6 you're very lucky.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah, you were.

Speaker 16 Very lucky. That you didn't get.

Speaker 6 Yeah. Yeah.
It's fantastic that you didn't.

Speaker 18 The irony is that 25 years we talk about a virus, and 25 years later, celebrating out of here we are talking about a virus again.

Speaker 1 It's early March 2020, a few days after the first confirmed case of COVID-19 in New York. It's that one weird week when we thought bumping elbows would solve everything.

Speaker 1 In fact, here we are on a social call, playing it quote safe by eating the snacks Ruth made from individually prepared bowls.

Speaker 1 Just days later, schools across the city would be closed, restaurants, stores, and offices all shut.

Speaker 1 Like with the beginning of the AIDS pandemic, our government would again fail in its response. Our medical system would again prove ill-equipped.
Misinformation would abound. And Dr.

Speaker 1 Anthony Fauci, who decades earlier led the tactical charge against the AIDS outbreak, would be back on TV, picking up the slack.

Speaker 1 In contrast to the religious service in Brazil, Ruth says that the memorial at her place for Elio that day was a raucous affair.

Speaker 6 You know, with a conga line.

Speaker 18 Dancing the conga around this apartment.

Speaker 6 Well, all these good-looking guys in one room, you know, it wasn't going to stay sad for too long.

Speaker 19 It was the best funeral ever anywhere. I remember being drunk and stoned.

Speaker 1 We also pay a visit to Ken, an artist and an old boyfriend of Elio's. The artist's life has been good to Ken.
He looks far younger than his 75 years.

Speaker 19 You haven't seen the clothes off. Gravity tends to do very nasty things to bodies.

Speaker 1 Ken tells us about the trip he and Elio took to Mexico early on in their relationship. Ken had been going through a phase at the time where he was wearing green contact lenses.

Speaker 1 Elio had never seen Ken without them and would always tell Ken how much he loved his beautiful green eyes.

Speaker 17 I said, shit.

Speaker 19 How am I going to tell him that these beautiful green eyes are fake?

Speaker 19 So I decided I'm not going to tell him.

Speaker 16 What the hell?

Speaker 19 So we go to Mexico and I got something in my eyes and they started bleeding. We have to go to a hospital.
We got to the clinic. The guy patched my eyes up, said you'll be blind for 24 hours.

Speaker 19 So the next day

Speaker 19 I took the patches off and then Elio's looking at me and he goes,

Speaker 16 oh my God.

Speaker 19 I said, what? He said, your eyes changed color.

Speaker 19 So I said, oh, this is perfect. I looked in the mirror and I said, oh, my God, they did.

Speaker 19 So that ended that.

Speaker 1 I don't know if he ever found out.

Speaker 19 Elio melted everybody down that he met.

Speaker 19 He was so charming. I never met anybody.
You couldn't be mad at him.

Speaker 19 I tried so hard to be mad at him him so many times and couldn't be mad at him.

Speaker 1 Ken directs his gaze at Vivian.

Speaker 16 You're lucky.

Speaker 19 You're lucky to have had an uncle like Elio.

Speaker 1 Vivian is basking in Ken's praise of her uncle. The room feels warm and friendly.
Until Ken opens his mouth again.

Speaker 19 I have to say, his family was horrible.

Speaker 1 Ken says his, but he is still looking at Vivian. He might as well have said your.

Speaker 1 Your family was horrible. Ken is being honest, but it sucks the air out of the room.

Speaker 9 Truly horrible.

Speaker 19 It was shocking to me. It was really shocking to me when his mother came.
She was so cold

Speaker 19 and so distant from Elio.

Speaker 13 I know.

Speaker 1 Of course, Vivian knows. It's why she's here.

Speaker 1 So come on this way.

Speaker 1 Vivian Marcelo and I are at my office. All day long, Marcelo's been playing tour guide to Elio's old life.
But I want him and Vivian to get a chance to connect one-on-one.

Speaker 16 Sit down. Okay.
Sit here? Yes, thank you.

Speaker 1 Marcelo sits on the couch, knees pressed together. Vivian is seated across from him in an armchair, hands tucked between her thighs.

Speaker 1 She's been waiting all day, all day and 25 years, for the chance to thank Marcelo. And so she stumbles her way forward, beginning with the ways in which her family led Elio down.

Speaker 8 I feel like the family,

Speaker 8 I feel like there was kind of like this internalized shame around.

Speaker 8 I don't know, it's like that side of the family couldn't really see past that, that he was gay. And that was like that lasting

Speaker 8 memory was like that shame.

Speaker 18 Yeah, but I also feel like

Speaker 1 marcelo interrupts vivian before she can get very far but almost immediately trails off he looks down at his hands in his lap and adjusts his feet on the carpet when he speaks again he speaks softly

Speaker 18 i feel compelled to say something

Speaker 18 um

Speaker 18 it would be simplistic to say that um

Speaker 18 which is because the family didn't accept his being gay this difficulty is not all on your family side.

Speaker 16 That was also Elio.

Speaker 18 His inability to be who he was fully.

Speaker 16 Really? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 According to Marcelo, Elio never fully embraced his own gay identity and so was never honest with the family about who he was.

Speaker 18 He was gay, had a partner for 10 years, you know, he was HIV positive. So all of that sort of

Speaker 18 came out for the family side in the worst possible way.

Speaker 18 So there's a lot here of broken trust.

Speaker 1 Marcelo's own family knew he was gay by the time he was in his late teens, knew that Elio wasn't just a roommate. Marcelo had been wanting Elio to be more transparent with his family for years.

Speaker 1 Instead, when the family was around, Marcelo says Elio made him feel like a mistress, like he had to disappear.

Speaker 1 So as much as the family didn't acknowledge Marcelo, Elio didn't acknowledge Marcelo to the family either.

Speaker 1 Although they were a couple, Elio refused to fully commit to Marcelo, continuing to date other people, like Ken.

Speaker 1 It was painful for Marcelo. In fact, Marcelo admits that he'd been on the verge of breaking up with Elio when they found out he had AIDS.

Speaker 11 What made Elio this

Speaker 18 ray of light being joyful also made him more difficult to pin down and taking responsibility and ownership for things that

Speaker 18 you do as you become a grown-up.

Speaker 18 So, I want to sort of take a bit of the weight from your family.

Speaker 18 There's a little bit on his side as well.

Speaker 18 There was his own

Speaker 8 battles.

Speaker 16 Internal battles.

Speaker 18 So, I think there's the joyful alio and there's the chicken alio.

Speaker 18 There is all of this is sort of wrapped in this fantastic human being, you know, and

Speaker 18 he's just a person.

Speaker 16 I think I relate to maybe the chicken part of Eli,

Speaker 8 like in my early 20s. Like I started dating women and

Speaker 8 it was something that I shared with my dad and

Speaker 8 my brother.

Speaker 8 My mom was actually like going through some like difficult stuff like in my 20s and to be honest, she actually still doesn't know

Speaker 16 but I guess she soon will

Speaker 18 listen if you avoid stuff

Speaker 18 it's faster than you but if you address it as a way of connecting connecting

Speaker 1 Marcello was encouraging Vivian to not hide who she is the way Elio did until he got sick he softened he softened you know I

Speaker 18 it might sound a little sanctimonious or pious on my part you know, but I loved him throughout, thick and thin.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 20 when he got sick, he allowed me to love him in a way that he couldn't before.

Speaker 16 We really

Speaker 18 were a couple in a way that

Speaker 18 we had never been before.

Speaker 1 For Marcelo, those last days offered some of his happiest memories of their relationship. Dying allowed Elio to finally grow up.

Speaker 18 Sometimes he would hallucinate and he would go to parties in his head. I remember this one that was a party at the Russian embassy.

Speaker 18 And he was talking about all the people he was meeting at the Russian embassy, and he was in bed, and he would do this.

Speaker 1 Marcelo Mimes smoking a cigarette.

Speaker 18 But in that state, I remember one moment that is

Speaker 18 the most precious moment of all.

Speaker 18 Days before he died. I said to him, I love you.

Speaker 20 And

Speaker 18 he had no cognition.

Speaker 16 His smile.

Speaker 18 Like

Speaker 20 ear to ear.

Speaker 18 And I never forgot that.

Speaker 16 So

Speaker 18 I loved him

Speaker 18 very, very, very much.

Speaker 18 And he loved me back.

Speaker 18 And I had doubts from time to time. But in that moment, I

Speaker 18 felt it.

Speaker 16 Do you want to pray?

Speaker 8 I feel like not a lot of people would go to that length, you know.

Speaker 16 I mean,

Speaker 16 my family didn't.

Speaker 8 But, like, I even wonder, like,

Speaker 1 Vivian struggles for the right words. For the first time during the trip, she's trying to put herself not in Elio's shoes, but in Marcelo's.

Speaker 16 If the roles were reversed,

Speaker 8 like, do you think Ellie would have done that for you?

Speaker 18 It's always a question for me.

Speaker 16 I always ask that.

Speaker 18 I don't know.

Speaker 8 The fact that you, like, moved in and took care of him is,

Speaker 16 it's,

Speaker 8 it is really incredible. And

Speaker 8 I think it just shows, like,

Speaker 8 how compassionate and

Speaker 8 like how loving of a person you are

Speaker 8 that you were able to do that.

Speaker 16 So

Speaker 16 yeah, thank you.

Speaker 16 Thank you.

Speaker 18 I didn't expect to feel the way I'm feeling right now. I held a grudge for a while and I was proud of the grudge.

Speaker 18 I was proud of

Speaker 18 being spurned and I think I grew attached to that.

Speaker 20 I held that

Speaker 18 as a kind of a badge of honor in a way and I

Speaker 18 don't anymore.

Speaker 18 Also, I'm ready to receive it.

Speaker 20 I don't think I was.

Speaker 20 So thank you.

Speaker 18 I really, really appreciate that.

Speaker 18 There's a poem by John Ashberry,

Speaker 18 which I'm going to completely destroy and bastardize, but there's an image that I really love. He says,

Speaker 18 somewhere someone is running desperately towards you. And I have this image, her views sort of like

Speaker 18 not desperately, but sort of like

Speaker 16 a slow, a slow run.

Speaker 16 I feel that too.

Speaker 8 Because of the nature of everything that had happened, It was like I didn't get that opportunity to have you as an uncle in my life.

Speaker 8 So, can I claim you as my uncle?

Speaker 16 Okay, good. All right.

Speaker 1 Twenty-five years ago, it had been Marcelo asking to be led into the family. But now, it's Vivian who's doing the asking.

Speaker 1 Marcelo moves forward to embrace her.

Speaker 1 In the end, Vivian receives an uncle as amazing as the one she always imagined.

Speaker 16 Remember you were a tiny little girl.

Speaker 11 Remember

Speaker 18 your hair was blondish.

Speaker 11 When we were

Speaker 3 delighted, I remember you were tiny, tiny.

Speaker 3 Now that the furniture's returning to its goodwill home

Speaker 3 Now that the last month's rent is scheming with the damaged deposit, take this moment to decide

Speaker 3 if we meant it, if we tried,

Speaker 3 but felt around for far too much

Speaker 3 from things that accidentally touched.

Speaker 1 This episode of Heavyweight was produced by Stevie Lane along with me, Jonathan Goldstein. Our senior producer is Khalila Holt.

Speaker 1 Special thanks to Emily Condon, Alex Bloomberg, Caitlin Kenney, Mimi O'Donnell, Lydia Polgreen, Rayhan Harmansey, Nabil Cholampot, and Jackie Cohen.

Speaker 1 Bobby Lord mixed the episode with original music by Christine Fellows, John K. Sampson, Blue Dot Sessions, Michael Hurst, Haley Shaw, and Bobby Lord.

Speaker 1 Additional music credits can be found on our website, gimletmedia.com/slash heavyweight. Our theme song is by The Weaker Thans, courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

Speaker 1 Follow us on Twitter at heavyweight or email us at heavyweight at gimletmedia.com. We'll be back with a new episode next week.

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