#29 Elyse

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Hello?

Hey, how is it that a seal keeps balls on their nose?

May I go now?

No, no.

I have something serious.

If I have to have groceries in the house, then I've got to paint the door.

You're painting the door to your house?

Yeah.

I'm going to paint the door red.

It's going to be very nice.

But you know what a red door symbolizes, right?

No.

Le Port Rouge is a bordello.

You're kidding, right?

That's how sailors would know.

They would have them down by the Vieux Port, and they would be able to know

where they could.

You're kidding me, right?

Make whoopee for money.

Hang on.

Who's that?

That's my neighbor.

Could you ask him about the red door?

Jacques?

Le Court Rouge.

From Gimlet Media, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight.

Today's episode, Elise.

So now what happens?

They're just going to call?

We'll see.

Oh boy, get ready for it.

a while back.

My producers and I decided to try a phone-in episode.

Larry King, Rush Limbaugh, and other Goldstein-esque personalities had found success with them.

So why, I wondered from the depths of my ignorance, couldn't I?

And so, full of hubris and hope, we open the phone lines and invite the whole world to call in with a small moment from their past.

Something to revisit and resolve, all during the course of a five-minute phone call.

This is why I got into this business, the you know, the feeling of live radio.

As I'm to learn, the thing about a phone-in show is that you need people to phone in, and nobody is.

How's everyone's day?

But just as I'm starting to wonder if Gimlet Media has forgotten to pay its telephone bill again.

Oh, here we go.

Are you ready?

Nope.

We're answering.

All right.

Hello, this is Jonathan speaking.

Hi, Jonathan.

How's it going?

It's going okay.

Is this, what is it, what's your name?

Elise.

This is, I'm very surprised I got through.

This is so exciting.

I guess you really lucked out.

Elise is a longtime listener, first-time caller from Washington, D.C.

And as it turns out, her call proves not only the first of the day, but also the last.

And this is not just because we don't receive any other calls.

It's because I'm completely drawn in by the story Elise tells me about herself and her dad.

What's his name?

Billy.

Billy?

Yeah.

So I guess...

I basically am estranged from my father.

When Elise was a kid, Billy was the fun parent, the one who always had hours to play with her.

The guy who, in spite of being something of a macho man, gave himself over to playing beauty salon, even allowing Elise to paint his toenails.

Before the estrangement, Billy and Elise were really close, which is why not having any relationship now hurts the way it does.

She was my dad.

Like our idea of a family vacation was to like show up in a country with no plan and like rent a car and just like drive around and it was amazing.

like Like that's what that's what life with dad was like it was like every day was an adventure

even the way billy met elise's mom was like something out of a movie the first act of a film noir billy was an englishman driving through chattanooga on a tourist visa when he got into a terrible car accident and the physical therapist assigned to him was Elise's mom.

Billy was still in a wheelchair when he talked her into sneaking him out of the hospital for their first date.

Pretty soon after, they got married and had Elise.

Billy never went back to England.

Instead, he stayed with his family in Chattanooga and became a successful used car salesman.

I have a lot of things in my upbringing in life which I'm to be very grateful for in addition to all the craziness.

In reference to her dad, Elise brings up craziness a lot.

Like the crazy way Billy ruined her credit by opening a business in her name.

Or the crazy time he drove home a brand new car only to have cops come looking for it with their guns drawn.

Or the crazy way he destroyed his 24-year marriage with a series of affairs.

There's one Christmas where he bailed on the family only to spend the holiday with another woman.

And for all of these things, no matter how jarring or painful, Elise has found it in herself to forgive her father.

But there's one thing she hasn't been able to forgive.

About five years ago, he moved out of the country without telling us.

Us is Elise and her mom.

Elise's parents had been married her whole life, but had recently separated around the time of his disappearance.

Her last good memory of her dad is watching him wave from the crowd as she crossed the stage at her college graduation.

Days later, he disappeared.

And disappeared is the word for it.

Elise says that when she went over to his house, she found food rotting in the refrigerator and all the furniture still there.

For a week, Elise had no idea what had happened to her father.

And then, she received an email.

It simply said he'd be gone for a little while and that email was the best way to stay in touch.

There was no further explanation.

The next time she heard from him was on her birthday.

Six months later, a Christmas note.

And that's more or less been the pattern for the last five years.

On holidays and my birthday and stuff like that.

His emails are very short, like three sentences or less, sort of, happy whatever holiday it is.

I hope you're well.

Love, Dad.

At first, Elise tried responding.

She'd express some of her pain and anger in hopes of provoking a more substantial dialogue, but Billy would refuse to engage.

So after an email pressing her father for answers, a few months would pass with no response.

And then an email would land in Elise's inbox, wishing her a happy whatever holiday it is and hoping she's well, love dad, as though nothing was ever expressed and nothing was ever asked of him.

Eventually, Elise stopped responding to his emails entirely.

We don't have a mailing address for him.

I don't have his phone number.

Like, the only connection I have to him is his Comcast email address.

Do you know where he's living?

He's in the Philippines.

That's all I know.

My mom has it pinpointed to like a region, but like there was never like, he never told me where he was going or why.

He never, he never explained why he left.

And this is what Elise wants, an explanation for his departure.

An emotional, honest conversation.

where she can ask him why and what happened.

Because in the five years since she last saw him a lot has happened he started a new family he also has like a wife and a kid uh-huh

and then he actually named his new daughter my name

elise oh my god

i just find it so insulting it's just such a transparent replacement Like I moved to a country and like made a new you.

So when people search for Elise on Facebook, the first result that comes up is new Elise and the page Billy made for her.

Which means old Elise is forced to constantly explain that this is her dad's new daughter from his new family, who also just so happens to have her name.

Like he just wants me to like love him and be happy with him again.

But the elephant in the room is that he's living mysteriously somewhere for half a decade and we've never discussed it.

Elise feels like she and Billy are living in two different realities.

She in the one where her father abandoned her and he in the one where he did nothing wrong.

She wants her dad to validate what she's seen and felt to understand.

Otherwise, how can they move forward?

Are you wanting to have a relationship with him?

Part of me is because he's also

diabetic and like he's just kind of old and sick and might die and I might never know.

He's 65 and possibly working a very physically taxing job.

He was working on container ships when he first moved over.

And I've been passively choosing the route of not having a relationship, but the fear and the guilt gets worse with time.

And what would pursuing a relationship look like?

That's what I'm trying to figure out.

It's like,

yeah.

I mean, he's my dad.

And

I feel like he's trying to maintain a relationship with me, and I just don't know how to work past it.

I know I can sometimes come across as something of a meddler.

But I only decide to get involved in the business of upturning people's entire lives after hours, sometimes even days, of careful consideration.

But then I've never hosted a call-in show before.

And so, adrenalized by the single flashing light on my switchboard and the imperial perch of my slightly elevated swivel chair, I dive in.

Would you want me to call him up?

And I say this, by the way, like with the idea that this could be a terrible, terrible idea.

I'm not championing this idea.

This could be a stupid idea.

It's better than any of the ideas that I've had for the past five years.

So

yeah,

I think it would be helpful.

My idea is to serve as Elise's emotional advance scout, to call up her dad and see if he might be ready, after all this time, to talk to Elise and offer some answers.

Given what Elise has told me about her dad, I can't say I'm optimistic about that.

But then again, I can't say I'm optimistic about anything.

Good luck with the rest of your calls.

No one's gonna call anyway, so.

Sorry.

No, this was a good call-in show.

And so it comes to pass that I email Billy.

As I await his response, I imagine various scenarios.

Maybe Billy will treat me like a student loan officer.

Sorry, sir, you've got the wrong Billy, he might say.

Or perhaps he'll try to convince me I have the story all all wrong, that Elise and her mom are the real villains.

After a week and a half, I finally hear back from Billy, and his actual response is more surprising than any I might have imagined.

It's just a simple note apologizing for the delay.

Billy explains it's the rainy season in the Philippines, and it's been messing with his internet.

But he says, he really wants to talk to me.

To be honest with you he writes you are the only hope I have of communicating with Elise

Hello.

Oh, hi, this is Jonathan Goldstein speaking

Hey Jonathan

It's a terrible evening here again.

Thunder and lightning as I told you rainy season so but anyway

so Elise contacted you

Although Elise's last memory of her dad was at her graduation ceremony, Billy has a different final memory.

And as he describes it, it was one of the most painful moments of his life.

It was in the midst of the separation from Elise's mom.

I was walking out of the garage carrying a box and you can see shave into the house from the driveway and Elise

was in the dining room.

Well, when she saw me,

she darted back into the living room and kind of hid herself so I couldn't see her.

But I know for a fact

that she saw me because we made eye contact.

I get that this had to have been painful for Billy, but as Elise's interlocutor, I tell him this isn't about his pain.

It's about about his daughter's pain and her anger.

And if they're to speak, he should be prepared for that.

I can't imagine that's something Billy wants to hear, and I'm worried how he'll react.

As far as her feeling anger on her mother's behalf,

that

I can assure you is completely

understandable.

Once again, Billy has managed to surprise me.

I basically,

putting it bluntly, shit all over that woman on many occasions.

It was one particular Sunday morning that she was up cooking breakfast and the phone rings and there's a woman on the phone and the woman says, hey,

this is Angela.

Can I speak to Billy?

And my wife said, well, who are you?

And she just openly told us.

She said, well, I'm his girlfriend.

Can you imagine a wife getting a

conversation like that on a Sunday morning in the middle of breakfast saying, I'm your husband's girlfriend?

If Elise broaches that with you, I can assure you that every single word that she says is accurate.

And if it's not a really ugly picture, she's left something out because trust me it's a really ugly picture

but there's absolutely nothing that i won't be completely honest and open about the article that i have absolutely no problem discussing anything with you

after hearing everything elise had to say about billy's unwillingness to own up his refusal to engage I was expecting the worst.

But Billy seems genuinely remorseful, apologetic, and even eager to hear his daughter out.

He tells me he kept his distance out of fear that Elise didn't want to hear from him at all, but he thinks about her all the time.

I don't know if it's because I'm getting older.

I don't know if it's because I feel like I've lost my daughter.

I don't know what it is, but I was really

excited when I found out that she had reached out to you

to make contact with me

because to me that means she wants to get our relationship back,

and that is desperately what I want.

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Elise.

Hi.

Hi, how are you?

Hi.

Nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you, Tim.

I've invited Elise to my office in Brooklyn so that we can call her father together.

It will be the first time in five years that Elise hears Billy's voice.

How are you feeling?

Very nervous.

You are?

Yeah.

Do you want some coffee?

Nothing calms the Kishkas better than a nice cup of coffee.

Elise declines, and we settle in for some small talk while I set up the call.

As we chat, I'm struck by Elise's cultural sensitivity.

Wasn't it

Canada Day recently?

It was.

Happy Canada Day.

Thank you.

I fumble around, incapable of an appropriately reciprocal well-wish.

Hmm.

We're three days after Canada Day, so that makes it the third, maybe the fourth of July?

Nah, I got nothing.

I tell Elise about my conversation with Billy, how remorseful and open to talking he seemed.

She's still worried, but says she wasn't even expecting things to progress this far.

I'm very surprised he spoke to you.

I'm very surprised he was candid with you.

So that's a positive.

Right.

And that's a change.

Yeah.

So, do you want to?

Shall we try this?

Sure.

Make the call.

Yeah.

So it's Monday, 6

in the evening, so it is 6 a.m.

Oof.

In the Philippines.

It's early.

Yeah.

Well, let's try him.

Okay.

Hello.

Hello, is this Bill?

Yes.

Hi, Bill.

This is Jonathan Goldstein speaking.

Hey, buddy.

What's going on?

Well, I I'm here with Elise.

Hey, Dad.

Hi.

Hi, honey.

How are you?

I'm I'm good.

How are you?

Everything is good this end.

That's good.

I'm glad that you

approached Jonathan.

Any communication

that we can get, I think, is really good.

Yeah.

I'm sorry it took such a long time.

It's okay, honey.

I understand you had things to work through and problems and yeah, things went wrong towards the end and yes, they're 100% my fault.

But if you think back, we shared a lot of great times.

But Elise isn't here to talk about the great times, she's here to talk about the bad times.

In fact, she's written up some notes to make sure she doesn't leave any of her feelings or questions unsaid.

The notes are in her hand, but she isn't looking at them.

Instead, she speaks from the heart.

Okay.

Um,

I have thought about emailing you back.

I've just been so angry that I didn't think it would be productive.

Uh,

and like

I have just wanted to like

like yell at you or or cry or cuss you out for leaving and not explaining anything,

but I don't feel that like intense anger anymore.

And I am sad that we don't have a relationship like we used to,

but I feel like every time I let you back in and I forgive you for whatever has happened before, you end up just breaking my heart again.

And I

I do find it very insulting that you gave another child my name, my first and last name.

And I don't know.

I don't know what relationship we're going to have in the future.

I just, I had to sort of get some of this out for any of that to be possible.

Billy is silent for a while.

When he finally does respond, he skips right over the big question about his leaving without explanation and focuses on the second question instead.

The question of Elise's name.

Well, um,

I can

tell you that

it was her mother who loves the name.

Elise,

I should have contested and said, no,

you know, let's rethink this one, but I didn't, Elise, to be honest with you.

And I should have done

the Filipino culture and the Filipino thinking is different.

I'll give you another example.

One of your favorite dogs is Charlie.

Okay,

I've never owned a German shepherd over here, but we had a dog.

But because of the stories that I've told, what did they call the dog?

Charlie.

By the look on her face, Elise doesn't seem reassured by the fact that, like her, Charlie, the beloved German Shepherd from her childhood, had also been replaced.

Although I haven't been to the Philippines, it feels as though Billy is throwing an entire country under the bus to save his own hide.

In the silence, I try to bring things back to what I think is Billy's strongest suit, his seemingly renewed capacity for repentance.

I want Elise to hear what I heard in Billy during our first conversation.

So I try to steer things in that direction.

Bill,

you know,

you mentioned feeling regret.

What would you do differently if you had a chance to do things over?

I don't think that the final outcome would change much, to be honest with you.

But

I should

have called for a family meeting and I should have gone over it in detail

with times and dates and plans.

A family meeting about leaving your family was not the do-over I was expecting.

After having heard the level of Old Testament shame he'd expressed in our first phone call, I'm surprised that Billy's now talking in the language of meetings and launch dates.

Elise stares down at the floor.

She looks at me.

Billy's not giving her what she needs, so she puts it to him as directly as she can.

Like, you have to understand that you just disappeared and I had no context.

Like,

I want to know what you were thinking when you left and, like, why you left.

So, like, what happened?

Well,

there are lots of things that I would like to explain to you regarding my leaving.

I'm here.

I'm listening.

If there's anything you want to say,

well,

there were several, several things that happened, Elise.

It's a long story that I would like to explain to you step by step.

Got kind of a really busy schedule today.

Is there any like brief overview?

Well yeah, honey,

I can answer your questions.

I have an explanation,

you know, for what happened.

And I would be more than happy to explain it to you in detail.

But then, nothing.

The conversation goes round and round.

Billy reassures Elise that he has explanations, explanations of every length and level of detail.

It's just that he never actually shares any.

But I'll be more than happy to do that.

Every question that you may have.

is there anything you've wanted to say to me

there won't be a a question that you will ask me that i won't answer like right now you're just telling me that you're going to tell me like do you have anything to ask

billy likes to talk about talking about hard things but not actually talking about them

still Elise keeps pushing.

I understand that it's very painful for you, but I...

There have been so many times when we've just glossed over insane things that have happened, crazy things.

I understand that there's got to be explanations for things that got said and actions that got taken and things that got done.

And then, when all of that is done, and Elise has asked her last question,

and I have told her every single thing that I want to tell her, and I appreciate her.

Billy's not making any headway talking about the past, so he turns the conversation to the future.

I'm really hoping that before I do actually leave this place,

I get to see you at least one more time.

I don't want to die without seeing you again.

I really don't.

Yeah, I don't...

I don't want that either.

And with that, Elise's hands fall into her lap.

As an interlocutor, there isn't much for me to do.

Elise hears what Billy is saying and not saying, and she doesn't need any help to understand.

So I do the only thing I can.

I sit beside her, commiserating with raised eyebrows and puzzled looks, saying without words, I see the same things you do, and it's not you.

For the rest of the call, Elise stays quiet and allows Billy to talk, though it feels as though he's mostly talking to himself.

It's going to be okay.

But don't look backwards anymore, honey.

Don't go backwards.

There's too much pain back there.

It kills me, Bailey.

Don't go back there.

Yes, just don't respond to the things that happened back then, but nothing forward.

It's just so painful.

It hurts.

It hurts a lot.

As Billy tries to push away the past while cowering from the future, the present takes hold.

The one Billy can't deny.

I am

totally totally.

Okay, just wait one minute, please.

I'm on the phone.

I I know I'm totally, totally responsible for and

so

but

if there are any other

explanations

that I should give to you at least, you know, I'll be more than happy to do that.

But I will be more than happy to spend my evening starting to explain that to you.

Billy promises that that evening he'll send Elise an email, an email that will explain everything.

But it never arrives.

Not that night or the next, or any night in the months that follow.

I will email you later today, okay, Elise?

Yeah,

okay,

thank you.

I really appreciate it.

Okay, Bill.

Well, have a good rest of the day.

Yeah, thanks for

talking, Dad.

I appreciate it.

Okay, have a great day, honey.

You too.

Or a great evening.

Thanks.

Okay.

How you doing?

Once we're off the phone, Elise and I go over what just happened.

She tells me she felt steamrolled, and I tell her that I felt it too.

I wasn't really sure

what I wanted to get out of it.

I don't think that everyone gets sort of

a like equally agreeable, compromised ending.

But for a long time, I felt like the burden of us not having a relationship was on me because he would email and I would never respond.

And that was kind of the end of it.

And I feel like now

that I have tried to contact him, like the burden of us not having whatever relationship I think we should have is not as much on me.

But I feel a lot less guilt now.

We'll never be as close as it sounds like he wanted us to be.

I don't think that's likely.

And like, maybe it's okay that I don't push for that.

I think he creates his own universe.

Like, I lived, I was a permanent resident of like Billy World for a number of years, and I was glad to get off the ride.

Like, you don't get to live in the universe that you create and expect it not to affect other people.

And other people have been affected.

In recent months, Elise has been corresponding with a British man named Martin, and Martin was able to help Elise answer the question of why her father left in a way that Billy himself couldn't.

Martin believes he's Billy's son, born before Billy left England for Chattanooga.

So unlike Elise, Martin grew up without a father, because like Elise, one day, without warning, his father left, moved to another country, and started another family.

And from what Martin is saying, he's not the only one.

There's another man living in England, he tells her, who also believes that Billy is his father.

The two of them have been trying to reach Billy for years.

In fact, it turns out that Martin and Elise have brushed against each other before, a long time ago.

When Elise was growing up, she remembers the home phone ringing, usually around the holidays, and a young man with her father's accent on the line asking to speak to Billy.

Back then, Billy said Martin was a distant cousin.

And all these years later, Martin still feels like he's being pushed away.

He just wants Billy to acknowledge him.

In learning about Martin and her other possible half-brother, how her story has repeated itself over and over, Elise has found the answer she needed.

The answer Billy himself was never able to give her.

It isn't about her or about Martin or anyone else.

The reason Billy did what Billy did is because that's what Billy does.

Martin and the other possible half-brother are planning to take a DNA test, and they'd like Elise to take one too.

If their DNA matches hers, Martin says, it's all the proof they'll need.

Billy will have to accept them as his own.

When I talk to her on the phone about it later on, Elise says she isn't sure a DNA test will give Martin the thing he's looking for, but she does want to help.

Knowing how much I wanted closure, it would definitely be good to be able to provide him some.

So the next time she and Martin speak, she'll offer him this.

Whatever relationship you have in your head that you want with him is probably not possible.

And like, I can confirm that you're genetically related, but that doesn't guarantee that he will be a presence in your life in a way that you want

because he's not able to do that for me.

In other words, Elise will tell Martin, I see the same things you do, and it's not you.

A few months after our call with her father, Elise and I check back in.

She tells me she still hasn't heard from Billy, but she suspects that around the holidays, like always, she'll get that three-sentence email.

And when she does, this time, she'll write him back.

Happy whatever holiday it is, she'll write.

Hope you're well.

Love, Elise.

Now that the furniture's returning to its goodwill home

Now that the last month's rent is scheming with the damaged deposit

Take this moment to decide

if we meant it, if we tried

This episode of Heavyweight was produced by me, Jonathan Goldstein, along with B.A.

Parker, Khalila Holt, and Stevie Lane.

The show is edited by Jorge Just.

Special thanks to Emily Condon, Caitlin Roberts, Alex Goldman, Caitlin Kenney, Alex Bloomberg, and Jackie Cohen.

Bobby Lorde mixed the episode with original music by Christine Fellows, John K.

Sampson, Michael Hurst, and Bobby Lord.

Additional music credits can be found on our website, gimletmedia.com slash heavyweight.

Our theme song is by The Weaker Thans, courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

Follow us on Twitter at heavyweight or email us at heavyweight at gimletmedia.com.

You can listen for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

We'll be gone for the holidays, but back with a new episode in December.

In the meantime, we'll leave you with something you didn't even know you were waiting for.

This year's Thanksgiving song by heavyweight audio engineer Bobby Lord.

It's a special treat to share with the whole family once you're tired of talking to each other.

Take it away, Bob.

Goldstein, Goldstein, Goldstein, Goldstein, Goldstein, Goldstein Jonathan,

I don't listen to podcasts.

I'm rapidly becoming Tony Shalu, I think.

I'm rapidly becoming Tony Shalu.

We've wasted our lives.

You've probably heard me say this.

Connection is one of the biggest keys to happiness.

And one of my favorite ways to build that?

Scruffy hospitality.

Inviting people over even when things aren't perfect.

Because just being together, laughing, chatting, cooking, makes you feel good.

That's why I love Bosch.

Bosch fridges with VitaFresh technology keep ingredients fresher longer, so you're always ready to whip up a meal and share a special moment.

Fresh foods show you care, and it shows the people you love that they matter.

Learn more, visit Bosch HomeUS.com.

This is Justin Richmond, host of Broken Record.

Starbucks pumpkin spice latte arrives at the end of every summer like a pick-me-up to save us from the dreary return from our summer breaks.

It reminds us that we're actually entering the best time of year, fall.

Fall is when music sounds the best.

Whether listening on a walk with headphones or in a car during your commute, something about the fall foliage makes music hit just a little closer to the bone.

And with the pumpkin spice latte now available at Starbucks, made with real pumpkin, you can elevate your listening and your taste all at the same time.

The Starbucks Pumpkin Spice Latte.

Get it while it's hot or iced.

I'm not going back to college to be your friend.

I'm going so I can get Uber one for students.

It saves you on Uber and Uber Eats.

I'm there for $0 delivery fee on cheeseburgers, up to 10% off smoothies, and 6% Uber credits back on rides.

Just to be clear, I'm there for savings, not whatever you think college is for.

Get Uber One for Students, a membership to save on Uber and Uber Eats.

With deals this good, everyone wants to be a student.

Join for just $4.99 a month.

Savings may vary.

Eligibility and member terms apply.

This is an iHeart Podcast.