#27 Scott

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Speaker 25 Let's play truth or dare.

Speaker 26 Okay, go ahead.

Speaker 27 No.

Speaker 28 Jackie, you cut out. You cut out.

Speaker 25 I couldn't hear if you said truth or dare. Which one did you say?

Speaker 29 No, I'm not willing. I'm not interested.
I don't want to play truth or dare.

Speaker 28 Have you ever...

Speaker 30 Have you ever peed in a shower?

Speaker 21 Tell the truth.

Speaker 32 Have you ever peed in a shower?

Speaker 33 John?

Speaker 27 Jackie?

Speaker 29 That's just not a question, John.

Speaker 30 Is it because the answer is yes?

Speaker 21 Affirmative.

Speaker 32 Okay, have you ever peed in a bathtub?

Speaker 29 Negative.

Speaker 32 You've never peed in a bathtub.

Speaker 27 That's disgusting.

Speaker 34 Why would you pee on yourself?

Speaker 28 I'm not saying that I did. You just did.

Speaker 10 You just said you did.

Speaker 21 No, I didn't. Okay.

Speaker 21 Okay, you could.

Speaker 10 No, because I'm not in the hot seat.

Speaker 21 No, but you are.

Speaker 29 You're not in the hot seat.

Speaker 27 I thought we were having a conversation. I want to have a conversation.

Speaker 21 We are having a conversation. Okay, you could

Speaker 21 have conversations

Speaker 35 from Gimlet Media.

Speaker 38 I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight. Today's episode:

Speaker 21 Scott.

Speaker 21 Okay, we're rolling.

Speaker 39 So, Scott, first of all, thank you.

Speaker 21 Maybe anything to do would, yeah, go on. No, go ahead.

Speaker 30 If you're lucky, the mistakes you make as you move through life are small and harmless.

Speaker 43 Calling your teacher mommy, leaving gum in your jeans in the wash,

Speaker 46 or talking over the person you're trying to talk to.

Speaker 40 No, no, sorry. Sure.

Speaker 42 Hang on a second. Yeah.

Speaker 21 Could you, yeah,

Speaker 47 tell me more. Scott, can you?

Speaker 21 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 48 but the mistake Scott made wasn't the small kind.

Speaker 35 It was the big kind.

Speaker 50 Big because it hurt his dad, one of the people Scott loves most.

Speaker 52 And he's been trying to fix that mistake for the past eight years.

Speaker 56 For Scott, the story all begins when he was a kid, which is when he first discovered drugs.

Speaker 22 The first one was weed. You know, that was when I was 13.

Speaker 21 And then alcohol.

Speaker 22 And then it quickly kind of descended from there. So I first did cocaine when I was 14, 15, 15, first did meth when I was about 15.
And then it was around that same time that I found opiates.

Speaker 58 Scott's mom suffered from chronic pain, and there were always pills in her medicine cabinet, stuff like oxycontin and fentanyl.

Speaker 22 It was this feeling of like finding a missing piece to a puzzle. All of a sudden, my anxiety was gone.
I didn't have as much self-doubt.

Speaker 22 And I was able to speak my mind and connect and talk and approach girls.

Speaker 21 And

Speaker 22 at the time, it really felt like like a cheat code that I would have for life.

Speaker 21 And for a while it worked.

Speaker 43 Scott graduated high school, then college, and found his way into a job as a well-paid graphic designer.

Speaker 52 But he was still using drugs the way he always had to manage his anxiety and make friends, like the friend who got him to shoot heroin for the first time.

Speaker 22 And I say friend now, but looking back on it, we weren't necessarily friends at all. But he said, if you can give me a ride to go pick up some drugs, then I'll give you some for your trouble.

Speaker 22 And so we're driving down I-70. He's in shotgun.
I'm in the driver's seat with my arm extended out over the middle part of the car as he shoots me up for the first time.

Speaker 22 And I instantly passed out and kind of swerved across three lanes before he grabbed the wheel. And then I kind of came back to, you know, a foot away from hitting a guardrail.

Speaker 22 That right right there just threw gasoline onto the fire.

Speaker 22 It went from, you know, doing it on the weekends once or twice a month to doing it every weekend to doing it every few days to every other day.

Speaker 65 Within a year, Scott lost his job and moved into his dad's basement, back into his childhood home in Colorado.

Speaker 30 He still needed to get high every day and now had no money.

Speaker 64 There were boxes in the basement filled with old jewelry and silverware, stuff that had belonged to Scott's mom before she'd passed away.

Speaker 67 So Scott started started stealing stuff from the boxes to bring to a pawn shop down the road.

Speaker 30 He figured an item or two wouldn't be missed, but pretty soon it became a daily thing.

Speaker 22 All the while, the voice in the back of my head was still there, knowing what was right and was wrong, and so I felt immense guilt.

Speaker 59 Soon the boxes were empty, and Scott began to eye other things.

Speaker 64 Things right out in the open.

Speaker 65 Things that belonged to his dad.

Speaker 22 So like a radio on the shelf just right there in the living room, taking that. And then a baseball signed by the early 30s New York Yankees, you know, Babe Ruth and Luke Eric and everything like that.

Speaker 47 Did your dad know what was going on?

Speaker 22 I mean, my dad is a very unique person.

Speaker 22 He's kind of like chronically petrified of direct conversations.

Speaker 22 You know, I remember even as a kid, he would have me order the pizza, you know, when we were ordering a pizza or something like that because he didn't want to talk to the person on the phone.

Speaker 26 So Scott's dad never brought up the missing stuff

Speaker 46 until Scott started taking money.

Speaker 22 I knew right where his checkbook was. You know, it was right there on the secretary by the front door.

Speaker 22 And I had a light table where I put down a piece of paperwork that I'd found with his signature on it and then put the check over it and kind of traced over it.

Speaker 64 The checks were small, $60 here and there.

Speaker 32 But soon the account was thousands of dollars overdrawn. So his dad had to make a decision.

Speaker 35 It was one thing for a clock to go missing, another thing entirely for for a savings to disappear.

Speaker 51 So the man who couldn't bring himself to pick up the phone to order pizza picked up the phone and reported his son to the police.

Speaker 22 So then they piled me into the back of the police car and then brought me to the jail.

Speaker 35 Were you scared at this point?

Speaker 21 I was petrified.

Speaker 22 I was petrified of the legal consequences I had, but I think I was equally or more petrified of the detox that I knew that was coming.

Speaker 22 I remember scrawling out the hours I was sober on a little jailhouse notepad that they give you. And, you know, I was doing $300 a day of heroin at that point.

Speaker 22 So it was a really, really, really bad withdrawal.

Speaker 22 There was just a series of horrible days where I just couldn't stop crying.

Speaker 22 I would have these kind of vivid dreams of seeing family or being happy and then wake up to realize I'm still in a jail cell.

Speaker 64 A couple weeks into his detention, a garbled voice came over the loudspeaker.

Speaker 50 Scott had a visitor.

Speaker 22 Nobody had visited me yet, so I thought it was a mistake at first. So I go up there and there's my dad come to visit me.

Speaker 21 But, um.

Speaker 39 But Scott's father wasn't there to offer support.

Speaker 35 He was there to present his son with a list of all the things he'd stolen.

Speaker 62 the radios, the watch collection, the family silver.

Speaker 32 It was two columns containing some 50 items, and at the very top of the page...

Speaker 22 His most prized possession, the Luger.

Speaker 22 This German pistol that my grandfather had taken off a German in World War II.

Speaker 22 This gun was something that I knew was like his pride and joy. That was like the quintessential memento and the biggest piece that my dad had to remember his dad by.

Speaker 22 And so that was the one big thing that I had promised myself that I would never take.

Speaker 22 And I took it.

Speaker 30 Of all the things Scott had stolen from his dad, of all the mistakes he'd made, this is the one he regrets most.

Speaker 22 I've only seen my father cry.

Speaker 22 When his dad passed away, when my mom passed away, and in that jail, when he was telling me about him knowing about the gun being gone.

Speaker 22 You know, this was a piece of his father that he thought he would be able to hold on to for the rest of his life, and I sold for $1,400 worth of drugs.

Speaker 43 For four months, Scott sat in jail awaiting trial.

Speaker 35 When he was finally sentenced, the judge decided to dismiss the charges if Scott completed this two-year treatment program that was modeled on rehab programs from the 70s.

Speaker 48 Scott would have to shave his head and scrub the floors with a toothbrush, that kind of thing.

Speaker 43 The judge told Scott that of the roughly 300 people he'd sent there, none had made it through.

Speaker 21 So that was encouraging right at the very beginning.

Speaker 22 But I was like, get me in. Whatever I need to do, I'm going to do it.

Speaker 62 After two years, Scott walked out of the facility, and he's been clean since.

Speaker 44 He has a wife, two young kids, and a job at a residential treatment facility in Colorado, where he works with addicts and their families.

Speaker 44 He's trying to make up for who he used to be by paying it forward, but there's one person he's never been able to pay back.

Speaker 22 I have all but forgiven myself for a lot of the things that I've done in the past.

Speaker 22 But this is one thing that no matter the amount of counseling, it still bothers me on the deepest level that I did this to my dad.

Speaker 62 So, about five years ago, Scott took his dad's list of the stolen items and set off to recover the Luger, along with everything else.

Speaker 22 So, I went to the old antique stores that I used to go to. I went to the old sports memorabilia spot to see if I could track down the baseball that I had sold.

Speaker 32 He succeeded in getting some things back, a Crossley antique radio, a ham radio.

Speaker 63 And that Christmas, with his sister, all his aunts, and uncles gathered round, Scott surprised his dad with the items he'd recovered.

Speaker 43 Scott was feeling pretty proud of himself until Uncle Bill piped up.

Speaker 22 And my uncle, you know, basically says, Well, is the Luger in there? Is the Luger one of the things that you were able to get back?

Speaker 63 Uncle Bill was close with Scott's grandfather.

Speaker 59 Like him, he'd also served in the military.

Speaker 65 He believed the Luger should have been his to begin with, not his little brother's.

Speaker 22 And I was like, no,

Speaker 22 no, I wasn't able to find that. And then that led to probably about a 10-minute spiel of his about about how important that gun was to him.

Speaker 22 And I remember the day when I found out that that was stolen. It still bothers me.

Speaker 22 And it was just like in the middle of Christmas morning. And we're handing out presents.
And every word that he said just like, ugh,

Speaker 22 it felt like a kick in the gut.

Speaker 32 And how do you think it made your father feel?

Speaker 22 Very uncomfortable.

Speaker 21 Very uncomfortable. Yeah.

Speaker 22 Yeah. But he's not the type of person that would toss it back in my face.
You know, that's kind of my uncle's style, and not necessarily his.

Speaker 64 Although Scott's dad didn't say anything, Scott understood that his dad felt the same way as Uncle Bill, that it was nice to have all those items returned, but the only one he really cared about was the Luger, and it was gone.

Speaker 59 All because of Scott.

Speaker 22 I know that there's still trust issues there. I know that there's still pain there.

Speaker 22 And I've told him over the years that I'm going to do what I can to try and get it back. And I know by the glean in his eye that that would matter quite a bit.

Speaker 22 And that if I am able to track this down, it would be

Speaker 22 seismic.

Speaker 35 No matter what Scott accomplishes in life, or how good he feels, there's always that nagging voice that cries out, what about the Luger?

Speaker 76 Were you able to get that back?

Speaker 43 Even when Scott is relaxing in front of the TV, if anything about World War II comes on, he has to change the channel. And so Scott's come to me.

Speaker 30 He wants to find his grandfather's Luger and has no idea where to begin.

Speaker 62 My first thought is, why me?

Speaker 28 Why not the guys from Firearms Chat Podcast, the Reloading Podcast, Wasted Ammo podcast,

Speaker 28 Socialist Rifle Association podcast, Concealed Carry podcast, New Shooter Canada, or Gun Girl Radio, the firearm show for the Second Amendment woman?

Speaker 49 I'm more the wistful type than the pistol type.

Speaker 65 More the pun type than the gun type.

Speaker 77 Do you think we'll have to go to a gun show?

Speaker 21 I don't know.

Speaker 22 I think it just kind of depends on where it ended up.

Speaker 77 Like, the thing that's a little scary, and maybe I'm completely, like, out of line with thinking this, but is it possible, like, that these guns can filter back into

Speaker 22 like a kind of nether world of like Nazi sympathizer people? Exactly.

Speaker 78 Like, yeah. it's possible yeah

Speaker 55 I don't abide by Nazi sympathizers but I'm rapidly becoming a Scotsy sympathizer

Speaker 43 as Anton Chekhov once said if a gun shows up in the first act it must be fired in the second and that's a lot of press

Speaker 58 but as Jonathan Goldstein once said If a gun's to be fired at all, please don't let it hit me in the wallet because that's where I keep the charge card I use for purchasing quality products like the ones coming your way.

Speaker 2 In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal.

Speaker 12 T-Mobile knows all about that.

Speaker 8 They're now the best network, according to the experts at OOCLA Speed Test, and they're using that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage.

Speaker 7 With Supermobile, your performance, security, and coverage are supercharged.

Speaker 11 With a network that adapts in real time, your business stays operating at peak capacity even in times of high demand.

Speaker 81 With built-in security on the first nationwide 5G advanced network, you keep private data private for you, your team, your clients.

Speaker 3 And with seamless coverage from the world's largest satellite-to-mobile constellation, your whole team can text and stay updated even when they're off the grid.

Speaker 18 That's your business, Supercharged.

Speaker 17 Learn more at supermobile.com.

Speaker 2 Seamless coverage with compatible devices in most outdoor areas in the US where you can see the sky.

Speaker 8 Best network based on analysis by UCLA of Speed Test Intelligence Data 1H 2025.

Speaker 20 There's more to San Francisco with the Chronicle. More to experience and to explore.

Speaker 20 Knowing San Francisco is our passion.

Speaker 20 Discover more at sfchronicle.com.

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Speaker 39 Not knowing where to start, I spend several hours on a gun collector's discussion board run by someone named Jan with an iron cross for an avatar.

Speaker 39 I introduce myself to my fellow gun nuts and announce that I'm looking for a gun.

Speaker 55 Right away, an internet pop-up pops up, telling me that my content has been blocked and to quote see administrator immediately.

Speaker 43 After the Gimlet Media HR department confiscates my computer, I unholster my weapon of choice, the telephone.

Speaker 30 I dial gun dealerships all over the country to seek advice.

Speaker 84 It's going to be almost impossible. There may not be any type of record.
Because it could just be in some private collector's collection. It's going to be hard for you.

Speaker 84 I'm I'm gonna tell you straight up. Do you know when it was sold? Do you have any type of serial number?

Speaker 72 Of course, a serial number.

Speaker 52 Scott doesn't know the serial number, but he admits there's one person who might.

Speaker 22 Uncle Bill, my dad's older brother.

Speaker 21 Yeah.

Speaker 44 Mr. Christmas Morning himself.

Speaker 85 Are you in touch with your uncle?

Speaker 21 I am.

Speaker 22 I mean, not a ton, but I am, yeah.

Speaker 30 So maybe he would, he would be a place to start.

Speaker 22 Um

Speaker 22 now

Speaker 21 I'm uh

Speaker 22 I mean, of course, there's a cloud of anxiety.

Speaker 22 My chest starts tightening when I think about actually doing it.

Speaker 48 Shortness of breath would come next.

Speaker 52 Then burning in the chestal region.

Speaker 64 It was sounding to this reporter like the healing process had already begun.

Speaker 22 But maybe we could both do it. Yeah.
We could do a three-person call.

Speaker 41 So, with me on the line as his emotional defibrillator, Scott dials up, Uncle Bill.

Speaker 86 Good afternoon. This is Bill.
Hello, Uncle Bill.

Speaker 86 How are you?

Speaker 87 I'm good.

Speaker 29 Mr. Goldstein.

Speaker 21 Yeah.

Speaker 55 Hi.

Speaker 61 After Scott and I jockey over who will hide behind whose petticoats, Scott boldly peers out from behind my petticoats and asks Uncle Bill about the serial number.

Speaker 88 I believe it had a fairly low serial number, but unfortunately, we never took a photo of the writing on the inside of the holster.

Speaker 65 So

Speaker 65 you don't have the serial number?

Speaker 88 I do not.

Speaker 43 But the moment we bring up the gun, it's Christmas morning all over again.

Speaker 86 It's a piece of history, of his history. That was part of what formed him to be the man that I knew, and that's about all we have from him from that era.

Speaker 86 And now we don't have that.

Speaker 54 When Uncle Bill speaks of the gun, it's as though Scott, the person responsible for its disappearance, isn't there, even when he pipes up to defend himself.

Speaker 22 The The gun disappeared to help beat his habit, and I was really pissed at him.

Speaker 22 Yeah, I paid off every cent.

Speaker 90 I wasn't real happy with his dad either.

Speaker 89 You know, it wasn't like I was going to go and beat him up or anything, but I was pissed that he felt the need to, quote, keep it safe, and then he didn't keep it safe.

Speaker 48 Do you still feel like you fault your brother for that?

Speaker 27 Somewhat.

Speaker 88 Now, the reality of World War II vets is that they didn't really like to talk about the war.

Speaker 87 We didn't have PTSD as a diagnosis. The damage was usually dealt with with alcohol.
And he and an awful lot of them drank too much. And that's how they self-medicated.

Speaker 67 After the war, Scott's grandfather became an alcoholic.

Speaker 64 He spent his days in an easy chair with a glass in his hand, and in the evenings he kept a bottle of whiskey on the nightstand to make sure he didn't wake up in a withdrawal.

Speaker 26 Like the Luger, it seems addiction has also been a part of Scott's family for decades.

Speaker 59 Before getting off the phone, Uncle Bill does offer a couple helpful bits of information.

Speaker 69 He tells us that the Luger was a mouser.

Speaker 63 and that returning World War II soldiers were often issued something called bring back papers, documents detailing any items they took home.

Speaker 43 If we could find those papers, Bill says, there's a chance the gun's serial number might be there.

Speaker 55 He also says that if anyone has the bringback papers, it'd be Scott's older sister, Mary, the family record keeper, and also one of Scott's biggest supporters.

Speaker 29 He's a good person and an honest one.

Speaker 66 When Scott was in jail, Mary was the one who visited most, gave him money for the commissary, and helped him with his court case.

Speaker 63 When I explain the length Scott's going through to get their dad's gun back, Mary becomes emotional.

Speaker 42 The whole thing reminds her of a story from when they were kids.

Speaker 55 Mary, Scott, and their dad had gone out shopping.

Speaker 29 He accidentally stole a bookmark from a store just because he thought we'd paid for it and we hadn't.

Speaker 29 And he cried all the way home and made us go all the way back to the store almost an hour away to return it.

Speaker 35 Mary still sees her little brother as the same well-meaning kid who's trying to make things right.

Speaker 39 She's not sure she has the bringback papers, but wants to help.

Speaker 35 So over the weekend, she digs through their grandfather's old stuff.

Speaker 43 She finds wartime postcards, letters to their grandmother, photos of their grandfather and his army buddies huddled in foxholes.

Speaker 86 And then she found the actual document,

Speaker 86 the bringback papers.

Speaker 21 Holy cow. Okay, so what, and

Speaker 21 I know.

Speaker 86 It's pretty crazy. Yeah.

Speaker 86 That's yellowing with a almost looks like it has a coffee stain right through the middle. And then it has just written in underneath it, Luger pistol, serial number 459.

Speaker 21 Wow.

Speaker 68 Hi, Giovanni.

Speaker 27 How are you, Jonathan?

Speaker 21 I'm good. How are you?

Speaker 86 I'm doing well, doing well.

Speaker 36 I get Giovanni's number from another gun dealer who tells me that if I'm looking for a World War II-era Luger, Giovanni is my man.

Speaker 63 Giovanni owns one of Colorado's largest historical firearm shops and is something of an expert in Lugers.

Speaker 72 And so, armed with the serial number, I get ready to make some headway.

Speaker 66 The serial number is 459.

Speaker 66 Okay.

Speaker 86 No.

Speaker 87 You have an incomplete serial number.

Speaker 43 Giovanni explains that Luger's serial numbers have both numbers and letters, so there could be a 459A, 459B, and so on.

Speaker 43 I re-examine the scan Scott sent me, but no letter.

Speaker 66 How many 459 serial number guns are there probably out there?

Speaker 86 Lugers?

Speaker 86 Probably about

Speaker 86 could be a hundred.

Speaker 64 Hoping to narrow the pool, I tell Giovanni it wasn't just any luger, it was a Mauser.

Speaker 30 Does that

Speaker 30 give you anything?

Speaker 65 So in giving you that serial number, it's not like you can look it up in a database or anything.

Speaker 42 No.

Speaker 27 Oh, absolutely not.

Speaker 20 No.

Speaker 65 What would you do if you were trying to track down this gun?

Speaker 88 I will give up.

Speaker 64 Before hanging up, Giovanni says there's one last thing we could try.

Speaker 30 Retracing the gun's path.

Speaker 43 Go back to the pawn shop clerk to see if he has a record of who he sold the gun to. Giovanni says the the clerk has no obligation to reveal that information, but it's worth a shot.

Speaker 39 The clerk's name is George, and he and Scott were friendly back when Scott was living with his dad.

Speaker 30 They're still connected on Facebook.

Speaker 52 So Scott messages asking if George might be willing to talk to us.

Speaker 35 And George says yes.

Speaker 86 And then he calls me back a couple minutes later just in tears.

Speaker 58 It turns out that when George bought the gun from Scott eight years ago, he intended to keep it for himself.

Speaker 52 At the time, George and his wife were expecting a baby.

Speaker 86 And about two weeks after I had sold him that gun, he found out his wife had brain cancer.

Speaker 22 Oh my God.

Speaker 86 Like really aggressive brain cancer. And she ended up having to undergo really aggressive radiation.
And so because of that, they ended up losing the baby.

Speaker 26 Just months after buying the gun from Scott.

Speaker 59 George sold it to pay for his wife's medical bills.

Speaker 86 And then she passed away a number of months after that. And it just brings up these kind of horrible memories that he's trying to avoid diving back into.

Speaker 57 Each time the gun has changed hands, it seems it's been in the midst of violence, desperation, and personal tragedy.

Speaker 39 While George doesn't want to talk, He does remember the name of the person he sold the gun to, the owner of a rare coin and gold bullion shop, a man named Klaus

Speaker 90 I just keep my collecting interest private you know some people think just because you buy Nazi guns that you're a Nazi when I first phone Klaus at his store he's reluctant to talk he's nervous about being judged for his hobby I'm a collector but you know some people associate collecting World War II German memorabilia with uh you know Nazism

Speaker 60 I reassure Klaus that that's not what I think but over the course of our phone call, I become less sure of what I think. I have a Luger serial number seven.

Speaker 87 What makes it so interesting that

Speaker 90 Hitler's party pin number was number seven.

Speaker 90 So he was, you know, the party member number seven. I have a number seven, Luger.

Speaker 43 How did you acquire something like that?

Speaker 43 I have some things that are very, very unusual.

Speaker 90 You know, I came, I'm an immigrant. I came from Germany.

Speaker 90 My grandfather was a Nazi officer, and

Speaker 21 my father was

Speaker 90 in the youth.

Speaker 66 I have many questions for Klaus.

Speaker 43 First and foremost, why are you telling me, Jonathan Goldstein, about your familial ties to the Nazis?

Speaker 48 But I'm not here to interrogate Klaus.

Speaker 43 I'm here to find Scott's gun.

Speaker 69 So I try to steer us back on track.

Speaker 43 I tell Klaus that I'm calling on behalf of a man named Scott, whose grandfather once owned a Mauser-Luger that George sold to him some years ago.

Speaker 52 Klaus tells me that's not possible.

Speaker 43 He tells me he never bought a gun from George.

Speaker 64 He doesn't even know who George is.

Speaker 57 And besides, he says, he's never owned a Mauser-Luger.

Speaker 56 Maybe you're mistaken, I say.

Speaker 43 All these guns kind of look alike.

Speaker 45 Black, shiny, shooty.

Speaker 55 Maybe you lost track of it.

Speaker 36 Maybe it fell behind the couch.

Speaker 56 Klaus tells me he'll look around, but he's non-committal, just trying to get me off the phone.

Speaker 36 Then, at 11.13 p.m., I get a text.

Speaker 39 Hello, Jonathan, it reads.

Speaker 46 Call me at your convenience.

Speaker 43 And speaking of convenience, no need to so much as move a muscle because I'm about to march right over there and dump a truckload of savings directly onto your face.

Speaker 2 In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal.

Speaker 12 T-Mobile knows all about that.

Speaker 11 They're now the best network, according to the experts at OOCLA Speed Test, and they're using that network to launch Super

Speaker 5 the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage.

Speaker 18 With Supermobile, your performance, security, and coverage are supercharged.

Speaker 11 With a network that adapts in real time, your business stays operating at peak capacity even in times of high demand.

Speaker 81 With built-in security on the first nationwide 5G advanced network, you keep private data private for you, your team, your clients.

Speaker 3 And with seamless coverage from the world's largest satellite-to-mobile constellation, your whole team can text and stay updated even when they're off the grid.

Speaker 17 That's your business, Supercharged. Learn more at supermobile.com.

Speaker 2 Seamless coverage with compatible devices in most outdoor areas in the U.S.

Speaker 10 where you can see the sky.

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Speaker 32 This is Scott.

Speaker 40 Hey, this is Jonathan Goldstein speaking.

Speaker 21 How are you?

Speaker 65 Well, I have some news for you.

Speaker 32 I found the gun.

Speaker 27 What?

Speaker 21 Yeah.

Speaker 21 Are you kidding me? No, no. Are you kidding me? No.

Speaker 27 Oh, my God.

Speaker 21 Yeah.

Speaker 27 You found it.

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 27 Wow.

Speaker 21 Yeah.

Speaker 83 I'm blown away.

Speaker 21 It's a matter of whether we'll be able to get it.

Speaker 27 Okay.

Speaker 39 It's still in Klaus's possession.

Speaker 50 So did you talk to him?

Speaker 21 I did.

Speaker 47 And

Speaker 25 it was an interesting conversation.

Speaker 32 So

Speaker 32 you found the gun?

Speaker 91 Yeah, you know, I was surprised. Last night I took a look.
And I went into my vault room and I found it.

Speaker 64 The Luger was still in the original holster.

Speaker 62 Attached to it was a tag with Scott's grandfather's name.

Speaker 39 Would you be open to the idea of selling it back to him?

Speaker 91 Well, my first thought is

Speaker 29 probably not.

Speaker 91 It's just that I legally purchased the gun and I mean I'm a collector and you know I I paid for it. So,

Speaker 66 I mean, would you say that his grandfather paid for it with his service?

Speaker 91 I mean, it's war bounty that someone brought it over from Germany.

Speaker 91 You know, he didn't pay for it.

Speaker 59 From Klaus's perspective, the gun Scott stole was already stolen property.

Speaker 91 He took it off of a German officer. And, you know, as we spoke prior, my grandfather was an officer

Speaker 91 in World War II. And, you know,

Speaker 91 my thoughts were, gee, you know, could that gun

Speaker 91 been his?

Speaker 91 At this point, I'm not really compelled to let go of the gun, but I still give it some thought.

Speaker 69 So the way that we left it was

Speaker 30 he said that he'd think about it.

Speaker 87 Okay.

Speaker 87 Well,

Speaker 87 I won't start celebrating yet, but we know who has it.

Speaker 96 We know where it is.

Speaker 87 So now it's just kind of tactfully figuring out what it's going to take to get it back.

Speaker 61 I really, I really do respect your optimism.

Speaker 78 I don't think we're going to get the gun back,

Speaker 42 personally.

Speaker 87 I'm going to try.

Speaker 86 We're going to get that gun.

Speaker 30 Since Scott's not ready to admit defeat, I suggest he try making his case directly to Klaus in a

Speaker 43 chances are real.

Speaker 57 Klaus receives the letter, but offers no response.

Speaker 30 Two weeks go by, and still we hear nothing, so I send another email.

Speaker 31 Klaus' answer is short.

Speaker 52 I have considered Scott's response, and I have decided to not sell the gun at this time.

Speaker 67 If my position ever changes, I will contact you.

Speaker 21 Klaus.

Speaker 96 That's just ridiculous. Settling on the fact that we know where it is and not getting it back, that's just like, it's super frustrating.
But I mean, there's got to be something we can do.

Speaker 39 Scott says he's willing to pay whatever Klaus wants for the gun.

Speaker 55 So again, I contact Klaus.

Speaker 46 It's not a money issue, Klaus responds almost immediately.

Speaker 36 I am just not interested in selling a gun to an individual.

Speaker 64 I can't figure out what exactly Klaus means by an individual.

Speaker 35 Maybe in the past he sold guns to organizations or museums.

Speaker 57 But when I write him back, he responds with this,

Speaker 43 based on the background information, I would not sell this gun back to Scott.

Speaker 40 So it's not really an individual per se.

Speaker 40 It's this individual.

Speaker 46 Scott's letter hadn't made Klaus feel sympathetic.

Speaker 58 It had made him feel nervous.

Speaker 39 Like with Scott's criminal past, a gun and a second chance might not make for a great combo.

Speaker 26 If there was any hope, it's now gone.

Speaker 73 Well, I have an update.

Speaker 90 Update, okay.

Speaker 33 A couple days later, I catch Scott at work.

Speaker 67 Yeah, I have another update.

Speaker 21 Um-huh.

Speaker 51 It looks like Klaus is willing to sell the gun.

Speaker 68 You're kidding me. No.

Speaker 21 You were right.

Speaker 70 You were right to be hopeful.

Speaker 39 I did not think that I was going to be reporting this back to you.

Speaker 27 What brought it about? What changed his mind?

Speaker 55 I'd asked Klaus the same question.

Speaker 30 It seemed as though over the weekend you had a change of heart.

Speaker 91 I figured you were going to haunt me until I finally get it back to the guy.

Speaker 21 I probably would.

Speaker 97 I just thought, you know, it seems like the guy really

Speaker 97 wanted that item back. So I just didn't want to be haunted about it.
So

Speaker 96 I can't even believe it.

Speaker 45 But there was still one thing that Klaus hadn't changed his mind about, and I feel bad having to tell Scott.

Speaker 52 He is saying that he is willing to sell the gun, but he won't sell it to you.

Speaker 63 Klaus doesn't trust Scott.

Speaker 78 Bottom line.

Speaker 96 I mean, he doesn't know me. He doesn't know that I've become a contributing member of society.

Speaker 62 After everything Scott's done to redeem himself, the rehab, the good works, Klaus' judgment stings.

Speaker 51 But Scott gets it.

Speaker 32 It's something he's experienced before. People accusing him of theft when things go missing.

Speaker 67 Women breaking things off when they learn he was once an addict.

Speaker 62 The world still sees Scott as a bad bet.

Speaker 57 But he sweeps aside his feelings to address the more pressing question.

Speaker 30 Who can we get to buy the gun?

Speaker 35 The first person that comes to my mind is the person who's always believed in Scott most. What about your sister?

Speaker 86 Yeah, absolutely. No, she would be totally open and willing to do that.

Speaker 29 Oh, 100%.

Speaker 68 Well, it looks like we're going to be buying a gun.

Speaker 27 Let's buy a gun, guys.

Speaker 52 Except, we don't.

Speaker 26 After looking into Colorado's complicated gun laws, we learn that because Mary's not a full-time Colorado resident, it's illegal for her to buy the gun.

Speaker 57 So we discuss options.

Speaker 30 Scott's wife could buy it and give it to his dad.

Speaker 59 But that's also illegal.

Speaker 57 In Colorado, only blood relatives can gift each other guns.

Speaker 61 We consider Uncle Bill totally legal, but Scott's worried he'd buy it and then want to keep it for himself.

Speaker 68 Out of viable family members, we consider getting a middleman to buy the gun from Klaus, then sell it to Scott, who can then give it to his dad.

Speaker 50 But as it turns out, there's a term for this, a straw purchase, and it's a federal felony.

Speaker 26 It's been nearly two weeks of phone calls with Scott, with lawyers, with the Colorado Firearms Unit, and with each passing day, I become increasingly nervous about Klaus changing his mind.

Speaker 43 So I present Scott with what might be our last remaining option.

Speaker 47 His dad, Wynne.

Speaker 51 Scott falls silent.

Speaker 57 For the first time in the course of this quest, he seems defeated.

Speaker 43 The thought of placing his father Wynne, the man afraid of the crack-voiced pizza boy, in a room with Klaus, the man with the gun vault and the Luger that may or may not have belonged to Adolf Hitler, makes him wonder if maybe it's all just gone too far.

Speaker 30 But at this point, it's the only way to get the gun.

Speaker 62 So Scott agrees.

Speaker 78 Wynn will buy the Luger.

Speaker 42 After the break, Wynn and Klaus.

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Speaker 1 Hello. Hello.
Hi.

Speaker 70 Scott and his dad, Wynne, meet me on the way to see Klaus.

Speaker 21 Hi!

Speaker 35 Mary's here too.

Speaker 69 She's come along for support.

Speaker 49 Klaus told us to meet him at a gun shop he knows, where they can run the necessary background check.

Speaker 70 We all get into Scott's car.

Speaker 76 People with microphones and stuff.

Speaker 71 Scott's dad, Wynn, is seated up front.

Speaker 39 He's brought along the Luger's empty case, which sits on his lap.

Speaker 46 Wynne is bright-eyed and smiley, but knowing from Scott how shy and nervous his dad can be gives his jolliness a slightly forced quality.

Speaker 22 Oh, there's road work.

Speaker 76 Case in point, when our ETA gets pushed back due to road work, Wynn bursts into song.

Speaker 21 Road work,

Speaker 21 here we come.

Speaker 62 Or, this is Wynne as Scott tells us about his day. This pretty dark day.

Speaker 39 Wynn is the one giggling in the background.

Speaker 22 They got four people into detox programs this morning.

Speaker 22 So, a lot of distraught parents and overdosing teenagers to deal with this morning.

Speaker 78 We pull into a parking lot and we all get out of the car.

Speaker 54 All except for Scott.

Speaker 59 After the way Klaus responded to his letter, he's afraid if he goes in, he'll blow the whole deal.

Speaker 99 We'll be right back.

Speaker 21 Cool.

Speaker 22 Well, have fun.

Speaker 90 Yes, alright.

Speaker 57 From behind the windshield, Scott watches as his father ambles towards the gun shop, empty gun case in his hand.

Speaker 43 I can imagine how Scott's feeling.

Speaker 71 Scott already believes he's failed his dad in so many ways.

Speaker 57 Sending him to buy back his own gun in a rundown-looking gunshop with bars on the windows must feel like one more failing.

Speaker 23 Let's buy ourselves a gun. Time to buy a gun.

Speaker 43 At the door, a large man wearing sunglasses and a holstered gun silently greets us.

Speaker 35 Wynne ducks inside.

Speaker 49 The walls and shelves of the gun shop are full of Nazi medals, Nazi helmets, Nazi hats, belts, uniforms, guns, and swastika armbands.

Speaker 51 And at the center of it all is Klaus, who is, at present, chummily talking to a large tattooed clerk with a white goate.

Speaker 58 They quiet down when Wynne, Mary, and I approach.

Speaker 64 Klaus appears to be in his 60s.

Speaker 46 He's a slight man with thinning, slick-back hair.

Speaker 43 Wynne walks over, smiling nervously as Klaus turns to greet him.

Speaker 48 And then, the grandson of a Nazi officer shakes hands with the son of an American soldier.

Speaker 72 As Mary and Klaus introduce themselves, I adjust the levels on my recorder.

Speaker 26 The goateed man has a look about him that says, I don't listen to podcasts.

Speaker 28 Just the same, I take a deep breath, scoop my testies out of my MPR tote bag, and, in my best vocal approximation of Ira Glass, demand my journalistic rights.

Speaker 28 Uh, and um,

Speaker 25 would it be okay if we were to be recording for the thing they were doing in the background?

Speaker 21 Absolutely not. Okay, absolutely not.
Now, cut it.

Speaker 69 The Luger sits on a glass display counter.

Speaker 42 Wynne walks over.

Speaker 51 That's it, he says.

Speaker 52 His father took it off of my grandfather, Klaus jokes to the goateed man.

Speaker 40 The gun is pristine.

Speaker 64 Mary and I take turns holding it.

Speaker 67 It's heavier than we expect.

Speaker 30 Wynne hands his driver's license over for the background check.

Speaker 62 While we wait, there's an awkward silence.

Speaker 39 I consider asking if anyone's seen Mama Mia 2 here we go again, and if so, whether they thought the closing supertrooper number at the Hotel Belladonna was a bit much.

Speaker 43 But before I can clear my throat of anxiety mucus, the background check is complete.

Speaker 55 After all the hoopla, it took all of ten minutes.

Speaker 39 Wynne gives Klaus the money and Klaus gives Wynne the gun.

Speaker 43 For perhaps the first time ever, the Luger changes hands without incident.

Speaker 30 Klaus watches as Wynne carefully places the gun back into its case.

Speaker 35 Don't let it get out of the family anymore, he says, as the goate man watches us wind our way to the exit.

Speaker 52 On the ride back, everyone is quiet.

Speaker 41 I imagine Scott is feeling relief, Mary, pride in her brother.

Speaker 52 But watching Wynne in the front seat, staring out the window, gun case at his feet, it's hard to say what he's feeling.

Speaker 85 God, this is crazy to see.

Speaker 39 At Mary's apartment, we all huddle around the dining room table.

Speaker 30 Scott's grandfather's gun has been placed at the center.

Speaker 67 Scott and Mary marvel at it.

Speaker 85 Wait, I'm amazed that the tag is still on it.

Speaker 21 Yeah. And that it has a number.

Speaker 22 459.

Speaker 22 Look at that.

Speaker 21 This is crazy.

Speaker 22 You understand how crazy this is.

Speaker 53 If Wynne does understand how crazy it is, it's hard to tell.

Speaker 71 There's something muted about his response.

Speaker 43 In fact, since we've entered the apartment, Wynne hasn't seemed interested in his father's gun at all.

Speaker 60 When Scott asks him if he'd like to hold it, he declines.

Speaker 57 While Scott and Mary pass their grandfather's gun between them, Wynne sits silently.

Speaker 48 I try to draw him out.

Speaker 85 Did you put any hopes in ever getting that gun back?

Speaker 21 I thought it was unfortunate that it disappeared, but I wasn't.

Speaker 21 Saying, darn, I wish I could find that gun.

Speaker 21 It's just a material object.

Speaker 52 No one is sure what to say.

Speaker 36 Sure, it's a material object, but it's a material object that carries great meaning.

Speaker 52 It's a material object that connects him to his dad.

Speaker 21 I was not as close to my dad as I would like to have been.

Speaker 21 The guy with a glass of Scotch whiskey in his hand, sitting in the easy chair, tossing out criticisms as needed.

Speaker 21 The way you grow a better son is to criticize him.

Speaker 71 For the first time all day, Wynn isn't cracking a silly joke or smiling.

Speaker 21 My main memory of my dad was being afraid of him.

Speaker 21 I remember one of my early memories is that I'd somehow succeeded in getting a bruised bone on my shin.

Speaker 21 And I was like three years old.

Speaker 21 And my mother was sufficiently concerned that she took me to the doctor and had it x-rayed. And it was, oh, how in the world did little Teddy, that was me then, get a bruise on his bone.

Speaker 21 And I think what it is, is that I think I got kicked

Speaker 21 by a guy wearing size 12 wingtips.

Speaker 30 Scott's never heard this story before, and it seems almost like he doesn't want to believe it.

Speaker 22 Were there good parts about your relationship with him, if you had to name?

Speaker 21 If I had to name.

Speaker 64 Wynne explains that his relationship with his father wasn't the same as Bill's relationship with their father.

Speaker 21 I think I felt criticized mostly for not being as good as my brother. He always did well in school, and I wasn't always so wondrous.

Speaker 21 And I always saw myself as a little more plump and a little less athletic.

Speaker 35 Bill was always the louder voice in the room.

Speaker 39 So that Christmas, when Bill lectured Scott about the significance of the Luger, Scott had assumed Bill was speaking for his dad, too.

Speaker 59 But he wasn't.

Speaker 22 I saw it as this treasured possession that linked you to the good parts of Grandpa. But your relationship with him is complicated and different than I even knew.

Speaker 39 Scott was right in believing that the gun was a reminder of Wynne's father and that it carried a lot of meaning for Wynne.

Speaker 56 He just misunderstood the nature of that meaning.

Speaker 85 To know that, like, Scott had been thinking about it all these years, even maybe past your having thought about it,

Speaker 21 how does that make you feel?

Speaker 21 It makes me feel loved that he would make it a part of his life to try to track it down.

Speaker 21 Feels like maybe I was at least partially successful in not being like my dad. Yeah.

Speaker 21 That I was somebody he could run over to and climb up in the lap of when he was little and stick his fingers up my nose. He used to like to do that.

Speaker 21 I could never stick my fingers up my dad's nose.

Speaker 57 Wynne looks over at his son.

Speaker 21 Don't let it bother you anymore.

Speaker 21 The greatest prize that I got out of this whole thing was the fact that even though all this crap disappeared, I got to get my boy back.

Speaker 21 The funeral plot that I had bought for myself to be next to your mom, I thought I was going to have to bury my son in it. And I am delighted that I never had to do that.

Speaker 21 That's ever so much better.

Speaker 65 Maybe eight years ago, during Wynne's visit to Scott in jail, it wasn't the missing gun that had made him cry. It was missing his son.

Speaker 57 But now, the gun tells a different story.

Speaker 21 The gun has grown, so it's not just my dad anymore.

Speaker 21 It has a whole story to tell about my son, and it's back

Speaker 21 Returned by

Speaker 21 this guy here.

Speaker 21 Thank you for doing all that.

Speaker 21 Of course.

Speaker 30 A few weeks later, I get this text from Scott.

Speaker 43 The other night, it reads, I stumbled upon a World War II documentary.

Speaker 52 And for the first time in eight years,

Speaker 45 Scott didn't change the channel.

Speaker 45 Now that the furniture's returning to its goodwill home

Speaker 45 Now that the last month's rent is scheming with the damaged deposit

Speaker 45 Take this moment to decide.

Speaker 45 If we meant it, if we tried.

Speaker 45 But felt around for far too much.

Speaker 45 From things that accidentally touched.

Speaker 58 This episode of Heavyweight was produced by Stevie Lane and me, Jonathan Goldstein, along with Kalila Holt and B.A.

Speaker 74 Parker. The show is edited by Jorge Just.

Speaker 32 Special thanks to Emily Condon, Alex Bloomberg, Bloomberg, Nathan Foster, Jacob Epler, and Jackie Cohen.

Speaker 74 Bobby Lord mixed the episode with original music by Christine Fellows, John K.

Speaker 32 Sampson, Blue Dot Sessions, Michael Hurst, Haley Shaw, and Bobby Lord.

Speaker 74 Additional music credits can be found on our website, gimletmedia.com/slash heavyweight.

Speaker 99 Our theme song is by The Weaker Thans, courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

Speaker 74 Follow us on Twitter at heavyweight or email us at heavyweight at gimletmedia.com.

Speaker 99 To see photos from this week's episode, you you can follow the show on Spotify and check out our show page on the Gimlet Media website.

Speaker 67 We'll be back in two weeks with a brand new episode of Heavyweight.

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