#9 Milt

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Speaker 6 I'm just about to go to work. If this is an emergency, because it's the third time you've called me, everything okay with the baby?

Speaker 4 Yes, yes.

Speaker 6 Beautiful baby.

Speaker 4 Thank you.

Speaker 7 You know, I take a lot of pride in that. God, he's nine months old now.
Bye-bye. But you know, you.
Bye-bye. Okay, I will respectfully let you go because I don't want you.

Speaker 6 There's nothing respectful about you, Johnny, because I told you six months ago I don't want to be on your show anymore.

Speaker 4 Well, hi to you.

Speaker 6 I remember you were calling me and I picked up the phone.

Speaker 4 Wait, wait, wait, wait.

Speaker 6 I was thinking it was about something else, but it's not.

Speaker 7 You had said to me that you didn't want to be in the introduction to the episodes, right?

Speaker 7 What if I were to tell you that this isn't an episode? It's a pre-episode. Oh, God.
What's the difference? Well, because it's not going to be a canonical episode.

Speaker 7 It's an anticipation of the second season. No.
And there isn't going to be another episode coming out for an entire month. So it's very pre.

Speaker 6 Don, I don't want to be on the show.

Speaker 7 Period.

Speaker 6 You're not listening as usual.

Speaker 7 The floor is yours. I'm listening.
Don. Yeah.

Speaker 7 From Gimlet Media, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight.

Speaker 7 Today's preseason episode, Milt.

Speaker 7 Must be a bad connection, I think, because my podcast saves lives. I phoned back to remind Gregor how last season my show repaired his friendship with noted vegan and bald-headed techno

Speaker 7 Moby.

Speaker 4 In the sense that you forced me into probably one of the top three most awkward afternoons of my life.

Speaker 7 So

Speaker 7 it was a little awkward in the room, but in the end.

Speaker 4 No, it wasn't a little awkward. It was incredibly awkward.
You're like a nightmare therapist who causes fights.

Speaker 7 Okay, yes, you felt that way in the moment. I explain how making things right is often preceded by discomfiture.

Speaker 7 But the main thing was that people were relating to his journey of healing.

Speaker 7 In fact, I say, the episode generated a very lively discussion on the website Reddit.

Speaker 4 Reddit? Well, I finally made it to Reddit. Soon I'll be on 4chan.

Speaker 7 Thank you for that. When Gregor's done giving me the sass mouthing of a lifetime, he explains that in the end, the podcast did more harm than good.

Speaker 7 He tells me that the episode actually destroyed his father's oldest friendship. Destroyed, I ask.

Speaker 4 Friendship, I ask.

Speaker 7 The trouble all started, Gregor explains, when his dad, an 85-year-old man named Milt, sent the episode to his friend Sidney.

Speaker 7 Sidney hated the podcast so much that he sent Milt a letter, formally ending their 65-year friendship.

Speaker 7 And that was that.

Speaker 7 According to Gregor, Sidney is a genius and couldn't believe Milt had the audacity to disrespect his intelligence and remaining time on Earth by recommending such a truly terrible podcast.

Speaker 7 In the time he spent listening to the episode, he could have done something brilliant.

Speaker 7 Sidney is a professor, the author of countless academic articles, and according to Gregor, a true literary scholar.

Speaker 4 A Joycean scholar, isn't James Joyce?

Speaker 7 As opposed to Joyce DeWitt, who played Janet on Three's Company.

Speaker 4 Anyway. Very, very intellectual guy.
Right. He does not suffer fools.
He's very much inclined to dress people down, set them in their place, that kind of thing.

Speaker 7 I had ample experience with that kind of thing.

Speaker 7 Case in point, Gregor proceeds to tell me in painful and gratuitous detail what Sidney thought of my podcast.

Speaker 4 Certainly the sound of your voice could make him angry.

Speaker 7 Among other things, he thought it jejune, middlebrow, and nothing but a load of chit-chat.

Speaker 4 As with a lot of things Ed says, I kind of agree with him. It is just chit-chat.
I mean, the podcast was just us talking to each other. It's not.

Speaker 7 Oh, but I mean, you know, Socratic dialogues.

Speaker 4 I mean, all that was, really was two guys talking right well i think yes that's empirically true but i mean if you're a guy who's going to be like hey socrates talked i talk i'm socrates you know then i don't think i can get any point through to you at all

Speaker 7 gregor says the letter hit milt hard he's lately been taking his meals alone in his office and not speaking much to anyone It's hard for me to imagine how my show could end the friendship.

Speaker 7 Sure, there were podcasts that that could. I'm all but positive the TED radio hours destroyed tons, maybe even a few marriages, but not heavyweight.
My heavyweight couldn't hurt a fly.

Speaker 7 And so I want to see proof. I insist Gregor send me a copy of this breakup letter.
Which he does. I'm gonna read, we're gonna go through the letter, okay?

Speaker 7 We're gonna parse through the letter, alright?

Speaker 4 Sure. Okay, here we go.

Speaker 7 So it starts off where he says, after our exchange.

Speaker 7 Without so much as a dear milt, the letter launches into a list of complaints written in the style of an academic monograph, replete with annotation and appendices.

Speaker 7 And then in parentheses, see poem about friendship. References to previous correspondence.
So he quotes from an email sent 11 years earlier. Yeah, okay, so here it is.
Hi, Milt.

Speaker 7 And second references to age-old intellectual turf wars. Not understanding the neurotic elements of the battle about the school superintendent.
Okay, so this is a whole other thing.

Speaker 7 There are numbered sections which contain lettered subsections. Bracketing number C, so he goes back to subsection C.
Bar mitzvah. I had invited you to my grandfather.

Speaker 7 And finally, there it is, like Gregor said, the stuff about heavyweight.

Speaker 7 To quote subsection J. Jay, you sent me the link to a radio program Greg was on.
I have listened to similar programs when I was driving.

Speaker 7 Very rarely, if ever, did I stop my reading or writing to listen to what I call chit-chat programs. Seeing that chit-chat thing in black and white was especially piquant.

Speaker 7 But as we read through the letter, it becomes apparent that this friendship has bigger problems than my podcast.

Speaker 7 According to Sidney, while he always asks after Milt's family, Milt never asks after his. And while Sidney attends Milt's family functions, Milt doesn't attend his.

Speaker 7 And although Sidney takes an interest in Milt's work, to quote Sidney, When I dedicated a published article to you, I quoted William Carlos Williams' So Much Depends, to which you replied that it reminds you of the adult pad's depends, so much for the dedications.

Speaker 7 The history of the world is a very important thing to do.

Speaker 7 Although the letter reads like a legal deposition, by the end, Gregor and I come to see it as something else, an outpouring of 60 years' worth of hurt feelings.

Speaker 7 Their friendship began in 1954 in a rooming house in Iowa, where they both attended college. Together, they considered themselves a couple of outcasts who drove to poetry readings in Milt's Model T.

Speaker 7 Over late-night bottles of Chivas Regal, Sidney would share his theories with Milt about Henry Miller's Tropic of Cancer, and Milt would share his attempts at poetry with Sidney.

Speaker 7 Almost 70 years later, Milt is now a published poet, but when he finishes a poem, he still sends it to Sidney, whose judgment means more than anyone's.

Speaker 4 It never changed. The roles never changed.
He was still the guy in his life whose opinion mattered most to him about his writing.

Speaker 4 He would say, here's a thing I did, and Sidward didn't just write back like, nice, smiley face, sort of double exclamation mark.

Speaker 4 He'd write these kind of like a very deep analytical kind of read.

Speaker 7 Sidney remains a kind of big brother to Milt. This at a time when those older than him that he can look up to are dwindling.

Speaker 7 And now this unique friendship was ending, and the straw that broke the camel's back was my stupid podcast.

Speaker 7 I mean, well, you see, okay, I mean, obviously, you see the irony in this whole whole situation, right?

Speaker 7 After waiting a good long while, it was clear that Gregor did not see the irony in this whole situation. I mean, I have a show.
It's raison d'être is to unite people.

Speaker 7 And because of my show, two men in their late 80s who have been friends for the past 60 odd years had a falling out.

Speaker 4 I mean, the end of Sid's letter to my dad said, go shove off. It wasn't a falling out.
It was, this is the end. I'll never speak to you again.

Speaker 4 And as far as you having a radio show that brings together, I always thought you're a disputatious character.

Speaker 7 I think my track record speaks for itself.

Speaker 4 Your track record? You get into like a tussle with a raccoon on the way to the liquor store. You're never going to have any success with anything.

Speaker 7 No, no.

Speaker 4 I don't mean to discourage you.

Speaker 7 Do you think that, you know, maybe I could do something to help?

Speaker 4 Okay, here we go. Here we go.

Speaker 7 Because, like, helping old men like this is sort of what I do.

Speaker 4 Every one of your ideas is worse than the previous one, and you're building the terrible idea pyramid.

Speaker 7 Well, you want to try calling your dad.

Speaker 4 We're almost to the top.

Speaker 7 Let's call them together.

Speaker 4 And now we're at the top.

Speaker 7 Like all Jewish men of a certain age, Milt probably hasn't answered a telephone in close to 50 years.

Speaker 7 As expected, Gregor's mom picks up.

Speaker 4 My grandchild, Greg's son, said when he heard about this, he said, When a person is older, he needs more friends, not less.

Speaker 7 That's nicely put.

Speaker 4 The relationship a person has with a friend is so intense and deep. A friendship, a buddy.
Wow. Yeah.

Speaker 6 Okay, here you go.

Speaker 4 Hello, Vior.

Speaker 4 Hello, Father Bear.

Speaker 4 Hi, Milt. Hello.
I have Johnny on the phone here. Jonathan, how are you?

Speaker 7 Good. How are you, Milton?

Speaker 4 I'm good, thanks. Let me just shut my music off here.
Hold on a second. Okay, sure.

Speaker 7 Milt shushes down what sounds like a Narlin's Dixieland jamboree marching through his den.

Speaker 7 And I ask if there's a way in which perhaps Gregor and I could help make peace between himself and his friend.

Speaker 4 You're talking about Sidney?

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 4 I mean, she's very brilliant.

Speaker 4 You know,

Speaker 4 he's written at least 200, 300 articles. She's a walking encyclopedia about literature.
Nobody knows more than he does, but he's more trouble than he's worth.

Speaker 4 I don't think you realize how crazy he is

Speaker 4 and difficult to negotiate with.

Speaker 7 I try to explain how there's nothing really that crazy about Sidney at all.

Speaker 7 Really, all he wants is more give and take in their friendship.

Speaker 7 But Milt is too dejected to hear me.

Speaker 4 I think

Speaker 4 he's broken up with me. I think he doesn't want to have anything to do with me now from the letter he sent.

Speaker 4 I think it's over.

Speaker 4 Forget about Sidney.

Speaker 4 All right. I'm going to fix this, Dad.
Don't you worry.

Speaker 4 I'm going to fix it for you. I don't want to fix it.

Speaker 4 All right.

Speaker 4 If you're giving up, you're giving up.

Speaker 4 You might just listen to the Dalai Lama on John Oliver.

Speaker 4 Hey. Yeah.
Tell him to watch. Yeah.

Speaker 4 All right. Mom's peals of laughter at John Oliver.

Speaker 4 Talk to you later. The Dalai Lama did an impression of Trump.

Speaker 4 Can't understand the word. I'll talk to you later.
Okay, okay.

Speaker 4 Gregor? Yes, sir.

Speaker 7 Okay, so you heard your father. That's it.

Speaker 4 I thought your mission on Heavyweight was to resolve conflict. My father's just feeling hurt.
I got to massage him a little bit. As far as I'm concerned, end of Act One.

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Speaker 7 How was I going to fix this 60-year-long friendship? Sidney's letter was an emotional plea that begged for an emotional response.

Speaker 7 But according to Gregor, his dad Milt just isn't that kind of touchy-feely guy. He's not a card giver, a bar mitzvah goer.

Speaker 7 Milt didn't even bother attending Gregor's graduation, saying he didn't get all the hoopla. In fact, the only time Gregor catches a glimpse of his dad's emotional side is when he's sharing his poetry.

Speaker 4 He'd be doing public readings of his poems at various events that I'd go to.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 4 And I'd say in 10 of those, in four of them, he'd break down crying and someone, sometimes me, would have to step in and read his poem.

Speaker 4 And then I started to realize that he was using poetry as the conduit or as an excuse to open the faucets in his emotional core to be emotionally expressive.

Speaker 7 Sometimes, expressive to a degree that makes Gregor uncomfortable.

Speaker 4 He'll send me a poem written about my mother to me. You know, it's not exactly erotic poetry, but it's not exactly not erotic poetry.

Speaker 7 What do you mean, like, give me an example?

Speaker 4 You know, it's like, I wake to the yawning cavern of your body, and I'm like, okay, I have to stop reading it.

Speaker 7 Milt's written about his wife, his kids, and his grandkids. It made Gregor wonder: had Milt ever written a poem for Sydney? We phone Milt back and ask.

Speaker 4 Not that I'm aware of. But you wrote 7,000 poems.
You never wrote a poem about Sydney?

Speaker 4 No.

Speaker 7 But the question must have planted a seed in Milt's mind. A few days later, I receive a phone call from Gregor.
His dad had sat down and written a poem especially for and dedicated to Sidney.

Speaker 7 I'm so excited, I can't even wait to finish my cream cheese and jelly sandwich before conferencing us all back together.

Speaker 4 Hi, Milt.

Speaker 4 How are you? Good, good. How are you doing?

Speaker 4 I'm fine.

Speaker 7 So I hear that you wrote a poem

Speaker 7 Gregor was saying about Sid?

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 7 Normally, Milt mails his poems to Sidney to get his feedback. In recent years, emails them.
But I ask if with this personal one, he'd be up for phoning Sidney and reading it to him directly.

Speaker 7 In this way, Milt would be making himself vulnerable with a grand gesture.

Speaker 7 I was imagining something along the lines of that scene in Say Anything, where the shiftless half-wit kickboxer holds a boombox over his head. But instead of of a boombox, it'd be a telephone.

Speaker 7 And instead of a young couple, it'd be two very old men.

Speaker 7 After a long pause, Milt says,

Speaker 4 I could do that.

Speaker 7 But then, after an even longer pause, he begins to equivocate.

Speaker 4 He's extremely critical and

Speaker 4 you know,

Speaker 4 he also wrote an introduction to one of my books that was pretty insulting. About

Speaker 4 I write poetry like I'm going to garage sale or something.

Speaker 7 Why would you publish in your own book of poetry an introduction in which someone is insulting your works?

Speaker 4 I don't know.

Speaker 7 Once again, Milt was presenting his work at the feet of the master. But this time, it wasn't just for critique.
It was to make amends and win back his oldest friend. And that was scarier.

Speaker 7 Why don't I connect you guys?

Speaker 7 Gregor, so we're not going to speak, right?

Speaker 4 I think we stay out of it. I don't see how we could possibly do any good.

Speaker 7 Yeah, well, because normally, you know, I like to

Speaker 7 interlocute, right?

Speaker 4 No, you're an interlocutor. Call him up.
Let's take these home and if this whole ship is going to run right into this iceberg or what's going to happen.

Speaker 7 I'm going to get him on the phone.

Speaker 4 Okay. Okay, here we go.

Speaker 7 Calling him up.

Speaker 7 Hello?

Speaker 7 Hello? Hello? Hello?

Speaker 7 Hello? Yes?

Speaker 7 Who is this?

Speaker 4 This is Milt Ehrlich. How are you? Who is this?

Speaker 4 Milton Ehrlich. Milt Ehrlich, how are you?

Speaker 4 Okay. Great to hear from you.
Hold on, hold on.

Speaker 4 Okay, thank you.

Speaker 4 Hi, Milt. What a surprise.

Speaker 4 How are you? Oh, okay, okay.

Speaker 4 Go ahead. Yeah, I'm okay.
But the reason I'm calling is

Speaker 4 Greg's friend, Jonathan Goldstein,

Speaker 4 He

Speaker 4 wants me to read a poem I wrote to you. He's on the phone right now, I believe.
Jonathan, are you there?

Speaker 7 Yes, hi.

Speaker 4 Hi. Hi, it's a group call.
That's interesting.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 7 Not only had Milt immediately forgotten our game plan, but he'd also yanked down the curtain to reveal Lurking in the Wings, Sydney's least favorite podcast host.

Speaker 7 But fortunately, before Sydney could start critiquing my work, Milt begins.

Speaker 4 Comment or interrupt any time you want.

Speaker 4 The poem is called The Iconoclass.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 I wrote it in

Speaker 4 homage to Sidney F.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 4 Words flow out of their mouths like tropical birds.

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Speaker 4 with a question.

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Speaker 4 The end.

Speaker 4 Hoping to change the mind-numbing deadness of schools, stamping out a mass of men leading lives of quiet desperation.

Speaker 4 where men in suits sit with glazed eyes transfixed by screens, howl for coffee or coke, waiting for long Sunday afternoons.

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Speaker 4 As slender fingers of the sun seep into their chamber, they solemnly tread home, knowing the struggle to awaken a moribund culture has only begun.

Speaker 4 That's the poem.

Speaker 4 I'm uh I'm not quite sure

Speaker 4 I mean it's the kind of poem that has so many references to

Speaker 4 my life. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Uh uh uh until now uh

Speaker 4 he he thought nobody noticed. Uh if it weren't so long, I'd have it on my tombstone, you know.
Uh it's uh

Speaker 7 Do you feel

Speaker 7 touched hearing hearing this poem?

Speaker 4 Oh, of course I do.

Speaker 4 Of course I feel touched by it. I mean

Speaker 4 it's not simply

Speaker 4 a poem that was delivered. The vehicle was Milt Ehrlich.

Speaker 4 I mean, he brought it to me.

Speaker 4 And that carries a thousand years of conversations and walks and talks and things like that. So, hearing Milt's voice delivering this poem, the weight is a serious weight.
It's a major weight.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 that's terribly important to me.

Speaker 4 Well, thank you for helping to make me a better poet.

Speaker 4 Yeah, you know,

Speaker 4 we're we're at a

Speaker 4 new phase.

Speaker 4 New phase.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 7 There was no reference to the letter nor to their not speaking. In other words, not a lot of chit-chat.
But by the end of the call, things felt back to normal.

Speaker 7 So much so that, just as we're all about to get off the phone, Sidney says, as he always does, Say hello to the family, Milt.

Speaker 4 Say hello.

Speaker 7 To which Milt says, as he always does, Say hello to who?

Speaker 7 Nothing much of anything.

Speaker 7 But today, Sidney doesn't seem too bothered by it.

Speaker 7 Bye-bye. Bye-bye.

Speaker 4 Okay,

Speaker 4 bye-bye.

Speaker 4 Bye-bye.

Speaker 4 Bye-bye.

Speaker 7 I asked Milt how he feels the whole thing went, and he says, better than he expected, that sometimes a person just has to take one for the team, for the greater good of the friendship.

Speaker 4 You know, one of the essential things about friendship, and I've written several, I've written several poems about it, I can send it to you. Sure.
That there's always

Speaker 4 one partner in a friendship that values it more and wants it to work more. It's like in marriage.

Speaker 4 There's always one part of the marriage that loves the other person more, and because they love the other person more, they can tolerate being loved less. It's the same thing in friendship.

Speaker 7 Although I don't ask him outright, I get the feeling Milt is saying that, in his friendship with Sydney, he's that guy, the one who's loving more and trying harder.

Speaker 7 But I'm also sure that Sidney, at that very moment across town, is thinking some version of the same thought.

Speaker 7 And maybe in all friendships, if you ask who's getting the raw end of the deal, the answer is inevitably, I am.

Speaker 7 But if the friendship has a fighting chance of lasting more than 60 years, that answer will also contain some version of, but it's worth it.

Speaker 7 Before we get off the phone, Milt has a question for me.

Speaker 4 The last thing he said, give my regards to who?

Speaker 7 Did you hear? Oh, he said to give give regards to your family.

Speaker 4 Oh, family, I couldn't hear that.

Speaker 7 Yeah,

Speaker 7 you might want to email him to just say to give regards to his family, or you might be sensitive.

Speaker 7 What would this friendship do without me?

Speaker 7 Okay, thank you, Zach. Okay, take it easy.

Speaker 4 Bye-bye.

Speaker 4 Hey, Gregor,

Speaker 7 you still there? Yeah.

Speaker 4 I'll be the first to admit it. I didn't think it would go as well as that went.

Speaker 7 I have to say, do you see any

Speaker 4 parallels

Speaker 7 in your dad and Sid's relationship and our relationship?

Speaker 4 I mean, I think Sid's a genius and I'm a genius. I'll take that.

Speaker 7 Let me ask you a question. Did you know that I recently had a baby?

Speaker 4 I think you mentioned that.

Speaker 7 Do you know his name?

Speaker 4 Oh, are you deposing me?

Speaker 7 You've never listened to an episode of Heavyweight.

Speaker 4 I don't like those earbuds in my ears. They hurt my ears.

Speaker 7 Do you think we're going to end up being friends for the next 60 years?

Speaker 4 You should be 115.

Speaker 7 Can you imagine you at 115?

Speaker 4 You're already like you're 115.

Speaker 4 Now that the furniture's returning to its goodwill home

Speaker 4 Now that the last month's rent is scheming with the damaged deposit Take this moment to decide

Speaker 4 if we meant it if we tried

Speaker 4 But felt around for far too much

Speaker 4 From things that accidentally touched.

Speaker 7 Heavyweight is hosted and produced by me, Jonathan Goldstein, along with Khalila Holt. The senior producer is Caitlin Roberts.
Editing by Alex Bloomberg and Jorge Just.

Speaker 7 Special thanks to Emily Condon, Stevie Lane, Wendy Dorr, Kate Parkinson-Morgan, and Jackie Cohen.

Speaker 7 The show was mixed by Matthew Boll with assistance from Kate Belinski. Music by Christine Fellows and John K.
Sampson.

Speaker 7 Additional music credits for this episode can be found on our website, gimletmedia.com/slash heavyweight.

Speaker 7 Our theme song is by The Weaker Thans, courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

Speaker 7 Follow us on Twitter at Heavyweight or email us at heavyweight at gimletmedia.com. Our season begins on October 26th.

Speaker 7 Our walls are we repainted white

Speaker 7 in an empty room.

Speaker 7 You better get yourself a new pair of headphones, my friend, because there's a lot of great stuff coming your way in season two.

Speaker 4 What are you threatening me?

Speaker 7 I'm working on some stories, and some of them take place in Canada.

Speaker 4 You're working on stories that take place in Canada. I'm not going to go change my underparents.

Speaker 7 I don't like when you say that. And you know my friend Jackie?

Speaker 7 She's coming back, I think. She's just

Speaker 7 you've met her several times.

Speaker 4 Name doesn't ring a bell.

Speaker 3 Everybody knows Shaq, but off camera, he's just a regular guy.

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See ya for details. This is an iHeart podcast.