#62 Stefano

Speaker 1 Pushkin

Speaker 6 I'm sorry to be intruding like this, you know, just calling up out of the

Speaker 4 oh hi. Oh hi.

Speaker 3 Sorry, my mom called on the other line.

Speaker 8 So then you just you just drop whoever you're talking to?

Speaker 3 That's the kind of daughter I am.

Speaker 9 Not very professional, but okay.

Speaker 10 Oh, is this a business call? Yes, it actually is.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 9 Well, because, you know, you're a dear friend of Jackie's, so I thought maybe, you know, I would turn to you

Speaker 14 with my concern.

Speaker 9 I've been trying to call Jackie, and she doesn't seem to be accepting my phone calls.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I know. Yeah, I could confirm that she's okay.
Okay.

Speaker 4 Oh, that's good. Thank you.

Speaker 4 Thank God.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I could confirm that. And I can confirm that

Speaker 3 she's annoyed by your persistence. That I could confirm.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 I don't know. I don't know what to tell you.
Maybe she just feels that you're using her.

Speaker 17 Well, I am.

Speaker 3 Well, maybe she doesn't like that.

Speaker 12 Yeah, because she wants to be the user, right?

Speaker 3 That's an excellent point you got there.

Speaker 19 Okay, Jackie, if you're out there listening, which let's face it, you're probably not,

Speaker 21 if I am using you, it's on behalf of America and Canada.

Speaker 3 Of course.

Speaker 5 From Pushkin Industries, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight.

Speaker 23 Today's episode, Stefano.

Speaker 23 Right after the break.

Speaker 24 This is an iHeart podcast.

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Speaker 21 It's impossible to talk to Debbie without hearing stories about her mom, Anita.

Speaker 30 Anita was Italian.

Speaker 21 And in every story, it's her otimismo ferroce,

Speaker 7 or fierce optimism, that takes center stage.

Speaker 32 Truly for her, the glass was beyond half full. It was always full.
Even if there was a drop of water in there, Jonathan, it was just always full.

Speaker 19 As an example, Debbie tells the story of how Anita comforted some cousins who were concerned their child was crying too much.

Speaker 32 And my mom said, no, you don't have to worry. She's like me.
I was like that for years. I was always crying very easily.
My mom was around 78 years old at the time.

Speaker 32 And they they said, Did you grow out of it? And my mom goes, Yeah. And they said, When? And she said, About two years ago.

Speaker 34 So,

Speaker 32 you know, they had something to hope for.

Speaker 14 Anita died in 2020, and her death was hard on Debbie.

Speaker 19 She misses her mom a lot and thinks about her a lot.

Speaker 12 And perhaps because of this, she finds herself returning to the one Anita story that has yet to find its happy ending.

Speaker 38 And that is the story of the airplane and the baby.

Speaker 21 Anita grew up in a part of Italy called Istria, and after World War II, the region was ceded to Yugoslavia.

Speaker 39 Suddenly, her family was under oppressive socialist rule.

Speaker 12 So Anita and her brother hatched an escape plan.

Speaker 4 They double-layered their clothing, borrowed a motorboat, and sailed into the Adriatic Sea.

Speaker 39 Anita could easily have drowned.

Speaker 32 But my mom said, you know, you're young and you don't think about that kind of stuff. You just think about freedom.

Speaker 19 Anita and her brother made it to Italy, where the police took them to a refugee camp.

Speaker 5 In the coming years, Anita would live in several such camps.

Speaker 32 When I would talk to her other friends about it, her friends would say, you know, oh, it was hard. You know, it was the food wasn't good most of the time and we didn't have money.

Speaker 32 But you would never have known that talking to her. She was just eternally optimistic.
She said, it was wonderful. They opened the doors doors and I saw so many people that I knew there.

Speaker 32 We'd play cards and we'd drink and, you know, the girls would do each other's hair and just had fun.

Speaker 40 In 1959, Anita got her chance to leave the camps, a visa to the United States.

Speaker 14 And so, all alone, Anita set out to America.

Speaker 32 So she was getting ready to get on the flight from Rome to New York. And there was an adoption agency that were taking children from orphanages from Italy to the United States.

Speaker 32 And they asked my mom if she would babysit this little boy, this little two-year-old boy.

Speaker 41 And she said, of course.

Speaker 19 Did she learn his name?

Speaker 32 Stefano.

Speaker 42 It's Anita.

Speaker 43 And you have...

Speaker 42 I got picture of a little baby. Stefano.

Speaker 39 This is Anita in a video Debbie filmed a year before her mom's death. In the video, Anita is clutching a photograph taken during the flight.

Speaker 42 He's so cute. Look at how beautiful he is.

Speaker 30 The photograph is oddly composed, almost like it was taken by accident when the camera was set down.

Speaker 30 Anita and Stefano's faces are both partially cut off, but you can tell that Anita is smiling big, with the two-year-old Stefano peaceful in her arms.

Speaker 32 How old were you there?

Speaker 42 24.

Speaker 32 Look at how beautiful. 60 years ago.

Speaker 42 1959.

Speaker 30 It was a long flight to New York and they had to stop three times to refuel.

Speaker 12 So for 18 hours, Anita held Stefano close.

Speaker 32 I think she just fell in love with him. She just fell in love with that little baby.
She said he was the best baby you could ever see.

Speaker 42 How good baby he was. He was the best baby.
I was very happy. I was happy.
A little baby was happy.

Speaker 36 It was Anita's first time on an airplane and Stefano's too.

Speaker 38 They were both leaving behind everyone they knew and setting out alone for a new life in America.

Speaker 36 Clutching this baby over the ocean, the two of them smiling at each other, Anita and Stefano bonded.

Speaker 10 They were both off to what she hoped was a better life.

Speaker 32 They get to New York. She was holding the baby and the agency came up to her and then just took him right out of her arms.
She said they didn't say anything to her.

Speaker 42 They just take him away from me

Speaker 42 and he started crying because he don't know nobody.

Speaker 14 There was no chance to even say goodbye.

Speaker 42 And I was crying with him. I would cry now to come.

Speaker 43 Yeah, of course, that's sad.

Speaker 42 He was like, my baby.

Speaker 32 She would cry. She would cry when she talked about it.

Speaker 14 Even after raising two kids of her own, Anita never stopped talking about the child who was hers for a day.

Speaker 37 All through her life, even into her last years, everyone heard about Stefano.

Speaker 30 Anita continued to hope, always needed to believe, that Stefano's life was a good one.

Speaker 32 She would say, I wonder where he is. Was he in a good home? What was his life like?

Speaker 42 I would like to know him and see how he's doing. I'm sorry.
Maybe you are far away. I don't know where you are.
I was thinking all this year about him, all the time.

Speaker 44 Yeah.

Speaker 42 And I love you, even if I don't see you too long.

Speaker 43 That's a nice story.

Speaker 42 And I don't know if you understand it.

Speaker 32 I think so.

Speaker 14 Back when Anita was still alive there were several attempts at finding Stefano.

Speaker 36 Anita sought out help from various friends and family but no one was able to get anywhere.

Speaker 13 They even looked into a TV show that reunited adoptees with their birth parents but Anita wasn't Stefano's birth parent.

Speaker 38 But then one day Debbie brought up the subject of Stefano with her close friend.

Speaker 46 Lindsay.

Speaker 32 Lindsay starts plugging stuff into the computer and she said, oh, I found him.

Speaker 33 Hang on, but you didn't, did you even have his last name?

Speaker 32 No.

Speaker 12 And who's this Lindsay?

Speaker 47 Does she work for the State Department or something?

Speaker 48 You would think.

Speaker 14 As someone who makes his living tracking people down, like a nice version of Dog the Bounty Hunter, a Dog the Bounty Hunter who, rather than dragging people off to jail, drags them off to heel.

Speaker 39 I'm professionally piqued by this Lindsay.

Speaker 49 I have a skill for finding digital footprints of people.

Speaker 30 This is Lindsay.

Speaker 49 I'm the person that people go to if they want to know something.

Speaker 45 The only information she knew about Stefano was his age and the date of the flight.

Speaker 36 But with that, she found Stefano's immigration record, which had the name of the man on it who was set to adopt him.

Speaker 37 From there, Lindsay found the adoptive father's obituary.

Speaker 49 Under the list of surviving children, there was the name Stephen, and we know we put that together.

Speaker 48 As Stefano.

Speaker 49 As Stefano.

Speaker 30 In America, Stefano became Stephen.

Speaker 38 Although Lindsay now had Stefano's full name, she had no way of getting in touch with him.

Speaker 39 She combed social media, but he was nowhere to be found.

Speaker 36 She did find his two brothers, though, so she messaged one.

Speaker 49 He said that it was a very nice story, but he doesn't speak to Stephen anymore.

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 14 And when Lindsay tried the other brother.

Speaker 49 It was basically the same thing, that they don't speak either.

Speaker 32 And then Lindsay dug a little deeper, and it looked like he might have a criminal record.

Speaker 5 Debbie and Lindsay couldn't see what Stephen's criminal record was.

Speaker 14 It just came up as a flag on one of those people-finding websites.

Speaker 13 But the reality of what they were doing suddenly sank in.

Speaker 5 They were looking for a potentially dangerous stranger to introduce to the elderly Anita.

Speaker 39 and it gave them pause.

Speaker 49 That paired with them, I'm not speaking to his brothers. We just weren't sure if maybe this was our safest way to go about this, and we wanted to take some time to kind of figure out a game plan.

Speaker 35 But time passed, and no game plan emerged.

Speaker 14 And a year later, Anita died, never having gotten to reunite with Stefano.

Speaker 33 After the loss of a parent, there's often an attempt to honor a final wish, donating to a beloved cause or scattering ashes in a favorite place.

Speaker 37 But Debbie feels a need to fulfill a different kind of wish.

Speaker 35 On her mother's behalf, she wants to know that Stefano is okay.

Speaker 49 Anita's death was very, very, very difficult. And I think it's healing for Debbie if we find him.
And I think that she needs this more than she thinks she does.

Speaker 14 Lindsay says Debbie never got the chance to fully grieve Anita.

Speaker 37 After she died, COVID hit.

Speaker 14 Then her father developed dementia and Debbie became his full-time caretaker.

Speaker 10 Then her father died.

Speaker 49 Just always on to this next draining thing, you know.

Speaker 49 And since it is honoring this wish of her mom, it's helping her heal. And I can just see that when we talk about the story.
She's so hopeful and she's so determined. And

Speaker 49 this is something that I haven't seen with Debbie in a very long time.

Speaker 30 And for Debbie, she hopes this story might mean something to Stefano, too.

Speaker 32 Maybe he needs to know that this woman thought of him for most of his life, loving him from a distance, wondering about him, praying for him. I mean, what a thing to know.

Speaker 32 After the break, let's let's find him. Let's find that guy, that little Stefano.

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Speaker 51 This is Amy Brown from Feeling Things with Amy and Kat.

Speaker 51 We've been made to believe that saying yes is a good thing, but I've realized there's a big difference between doing it intentionally and doing it unintentionally.

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Speaker 18 So.

Speaker 34 So. Here we are.
Here we are.

Speaker 31 My producer Khalila Holt and I gather in the studio.

Speaker 39 Our mission is twofold.

Speaker 14 We want to find a way to contact Stephen, but before we do, we want to figure out what Stephen's mysterious criminal record actually is.

Speaker 19 Kalila starts tip-tapping away on her computer while I settle in and offer the kind of input that only an investigative journalist with a decades-long track record can.

Speaker 5 I've gone through different phases in my life where a v-neck was more appealing than a crew neck.

Speaker 29 It kind of goes. It's always darkest before the dawn.

Speaker 40 Is that true?

Speaker 30 I was like to Age, I was like, smell how good that is.

Speaker 40 And he was like, that smells disgusting.

Speaker 29 I was like, I can think of other times when it's darker. It's probably darker at night.

Speaker 7 My gal don't do much talking dances, even when she's walking one on two.

Speaker 4 Oh, look at that little squirrel.

Speaker 48 Oh, here's criminal traffic.

Speaker 22 And then, finally, we find the record we've been looking for.

Speaker 34 D-U-I.

Speaker 4 Ah, okay.

Speaker 48 In

Speaker 48 1989. That was a long time ago.

Speaker 10 So there's really no other criminal past except.

Speaker 48 That's all I'm seeing.

Speaker 45 Boy, that's sad that that was enough to kind of

Speaker 20 make them drop the whole thing.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 49 Please leave your message for five.

Speaker 33 Khalila digs up some possible phone numbers for Steven online. And in the weeks to come, I leave numerous voicemails.

Speaker 19 Hi there.

Speaker 5 I'm looking for a Steven.

Speaker 19 I call so many numbers, I hear automated messages entirely new to me.

Speaker 49 The number is in service.

Speaker 4 Is in service?

Speaker 5 None of these phone numbers lead me to Steven.

Speaker 22 They just lead me to different robotic voices.

Speaker 29 You're calling them.

Speaker 4 Alright, that's it.

Speaker 44 Yeah.

Speaker 19 With the telephone having crapped on our heads, we decide that what we need is an even older form of communication, the U.S.

Speaker 4 Postal Service.

Speaker 31 Kalila uncovers three possible mailing addresses for Stephen.

Speaker 13 So we write three letters and drop them in the mailbox, letting them fly off into the world like three hopeful birds.

Speaker 39 And then time, as is its wont, passes.

Speaker 13 Two years go by.

Speaker 8 Two years.

Speaker 30 It's unlikely the average podcast listener's brain, raised on podcasts about celebs, elk steak, and the science of why people go to the bathroom, can easily conceptualize the passage of so much time.

Speaker 35 If this was a video podcast, I'd stare into the camera with my patented deadpan affect as my beard and fingernails grew in time-lapse.

Speaker 9 But since it isn't a video podcast, I present to you an audiophonic aid.

Speaker 37 That was only 10 seconds.

Speaker 35 Now imagine two years.

Speaker 36 Two years of refreshing my inbox and calling my answering service to no avail.

Speaker 14 And then, Debbie and I check back in.

Speaker 15 Where are you right now?

Speaker 47 It appears that you have a ladder behind you.

Speaker 32 Yes, I'm at home.

Speaker 45 And where does this ladder lead to?

Speaker 44 Oh, nowhere.

Speaker 26 It's a story. A ladder to nowhere.

Speaker 32 We're going nowhere with this ladder.

Speaker 46 I hope we're going somewhere with this story. I hope we're not on a ladder to nowhere.

Speaker 30 It seems Debbie hasn't given up on Stefano.

Speaker 14 She tells me Lindsay found some of the same phone numbers we did.

Speaker 37 So Debbie too tried calling and leaving messages.

Speaker 22 No one ever called back though.

Speaker 39 Still, Debbie wants to keep trying.

Speaker 5 And so more letters are sent, more voicemails left, and two more months go by.

Speaker 14 I've completely given up hope.

Speaker 14 And then, one afternoon, I finally hear from Stephen.

Speaker 30 You did? I did.

Speaker 4 You did?

Speaker 11 I did. Wow.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 11 I'm shocked.

Speaker 4 I wasn't holding out a lot of of hope.

Speaker 21 Me either.

Speaker 2 I tell Debbie about the phone call, how Stephen told me he dismissed my letters as a scam.

Speaker 14 I asked if he'd be open to a conversation with Debbie, but he said he doesn't have transportation.

Speaker 30 And when I said we could do a video call, he said he hasn't a cell phone nor a computer, and he, quote, doesn't follow the internet.

Speaker 13 But eventually, he said he'd be okay with a telephone call.

Speaker 11 I would love that.

Speaker 11 I think it's a gift that he doesn't realize, you know?

Speaker 13 So he is available.

Speaker 19 One o'clock Green Mountain Time.

Speaker 31 So that would be like, oh, sorry, mountain time, mountain time, not green mountain time.

Speaker 1 After the break, Stefano at long last.

Speaker 19 Is green mountain time a thing?

Speaker 32 Sounds like a coffee thing to me.

Speaker 9 That would be three o'clock Nest Cafe.

Speaker 11 So one o'clock Green Mountain.

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Speaker 17 With built-in security on the first nationwide 5G advanced network, you keep private data private for you, your team, your clients.

Speaker 17 And with seamless coverage from the world's largest satellite-to-mobile constellation, your whole team can text and stay updated even when they're off the grid. That's your business, supercharged.

Speaker 17 Learn more at supermobile.com. Seamless coverage with compatible devices in most outdoor areas in the U.S.
where you can see the sky.

Speaker 17 Best business plan based on a combination of advanced network performance, coverage layers, and security features. Best network based on analysis by OOCLA of Speed Test Intelligence Data 1H 2025.

Speaker 51 This is Amy Brown from Feeling Things with Amy and Kat.

Speaker 51 We've been made to believe that saying yes is a good thing, but I've realized there's a big difference between doing it intentionally and doing it unintentionally.

Speaker 51 IsoPure protein helps you focus on more of what matters, like feeling your best every day with great tasting nutrition that's high protein and also low carb if you need that.

Speaker 51 IsoPure fits seamlessly into your lifestyle, and that's why I've added it to my daily routine. I use IsoPure unflavored protein in recipes like pasta sauce and guacamole during the week.

Speaker 51 With 25 grams of ultra-filtered protein and zero carbs, plus 20 vitamins and minerals, you can boost nearly any recipe without changing the taste of your favorite foods.

Speaker 51 I've already restocked four times because I add the IsoPure Unflavored to everything.

Speaker 51 You can try the IsoPure Vanilla to blend 25 grams of protein into your smoothies or your oatmeal, or check out IsoPure Clear Protein Water with 15 grams of protein, which supports hydration with electrolytes and a light berry flavor.

Speaker 51 Enjoy more of what matters today at iSipureProtein.com and get 20% off your order when you use code MINES20 at checkout.

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Speaker 55 Someone at this law firm covered up the truth.

Speaker 30 They knew they were fueling an epidemic.

Speaker 11 I'm gonna get justice.

Speaker 53 Kathy Bates, starring in her Emmy-nominated role.

Speaker 18 You come forward now.

Speaker 55 You're just a crazy old lady with no evidence. I'm meeting with the reporter tomorrow.

Speaker 34 That truth is coming out.

Speaker 37 I have a terrific plan.

Speaker 54 It's highly detailed, mastermind caliber.

Speaker 18 You really are incredible at this.

Speaker 56 That's like my grandson telling me I don't look a day over 50.

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Speaker 56 People assume I'm a harmless old lady.

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Speaker 55 Who the hell are you, Madeline Matlock?

Speaker 53 This season. Your life is still a mystery.
Allies are telling all lies.

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Speaker 17 Now,

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Speaker 35 The next day, at 1 p.m. Green Mountain time, Debbie and I convene.

Speaker 4 Okay, I'll give him a call.

Speaker 46 I'll phone him.

Speaker 33 I'll and I'll introduce you guys.

Speaker 32 Okay.

Speaker 34 Okay.

Speaker 11 Hello.

Speaker 23 Hello, Stephen.

Speaker 57 Yes. Hi, it's Jonathan Phoning.
I'm here with Debbie.

Speaker 11 Oh, you are.

Speaker 32 Hi, Stephen. How are you?

Speaker 11 I'm fine.

Speaker 11 How are you?

Speaker 32 I'm good. I'm really good.
And I'm really excited to hear your voice and to know that you're here

Speaker 34 right now.

Speaker 32 So, Stephen, my mom, her name was Anita.

Speaker 13 Debbie lays it all out for Stephen.

Speaker 39 The plane ride, the love Anita felt for him, and how that love endured for Anita's entire life.

Speaker 32 You were always on her mind for many, many years and told many people about you.

Speaker 11 Well, God bless your mom.

Speaker 11 I wish she would have adopted me.

Speaker 11 I think she would have liked that too.

Speaker 14 Anita always wanted to know whether, after being taken from her arms, Stefano's life had been a good one. So we start at the beginning with Stephen's adoption.

Speaker 11 My foster parents told me

Speaker 11 roughly at the age of eight.

Speaker 47 You call them your foster parents. Did they adopt you?

Speaker 11 Yes.

Speaker 8 Were they good people?

Speaker 11 I mean, there were three squares a day.

Speaker 11 I mean, there was no abuse

Speaker 11 or anything like that.

Speaker 11 I don't mind that.

Speaker 11 Lickens is what my dad called it.

Speaker 8 Did you say Lickens?

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 11 The belt.

Speaker 11 It wasn't abuse.

Speaker 11 It was just for discipline purposes.

Speaker 4 Was that rough

Speaker 11 well for a little kid it is

Speaker 47 did did you but did you feel loved

Speaker 11 yes

Speaker 11 i did

Speaker 11 oh i remember from childhood other than friends

Speaker 11 and they turned out to be drug addicts

Speaker 11 I turned out nominal.

Speaker 12 What do you mean when you you say nominal?

Speaker 11 Well, I have a serious alcohol problem.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 11 I know I sound like I've been drinking, but I haven't.

Speaker 11 I don't have anything here.

Speaker 11 I was pretty much known as a boozer.

Speaker 45 Back in the day, Stephen says, the drinking got bad, which led to the DUI.

Speaker 11 You don't think when you drink, you get behind the wheel of a vehicle drunk is

Speaker 11 preposterous.

Speaker 32 Did your father, did your adoptive father do something similar?

Speaker 11 He drank, but

Speaker 11 not in excess. I never saw him in a drunken stupor.

Speaker 11 Well, nobody's ever seen me.

Speaker 11 I won't let them.

Speaker 32 Yeah.

Speaker 22 So you drink alone?

Speaker 11 Yes.

Speaker 11 That song by that one guy, George Thurgood, I drink alone,

Speaker 11 reminds me of me.

Speaker 6 As the conversation goes on, Debbie grows increasingly quiet.

Speaker 14 So I do my best to draw Stephen out.

Speaker 22 Did you get married?

Speaker 11 No, I've never been married. I've had relationships, but they

Speaker 11 come and go.

Speaker 30 Would you say that you that you've been in love?

Speaker 11 I've been infatuated for that.

Speaker 11 And I lived with a lady for many years,

Speaker 11 but that was back in the 80s.

Speaker 12 What can you say about her?

Speaker 11 Joanne?

Speaker 11 She died of lung cancer.

Speaker 11 And I lived with her for

Speaker 11 like nine years.

Speaker 4 Oh, boy.

Speaker 47 Did she pass away while you were living together?

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Oh,

Speaker 14 that must have been hard.

Speaker 11 Yeah, it was.

Speaker 11 But

Speaker 11 I moved on.

Speaker 39 Stephen tells us that he was in the Navy for four years, that he missed Vietnam by just a month.

Speaker 37 Most of his professional life was spent working in factories.

Speaker 19 I ask him about his brothers, why they no longer speak, but he says nothing in particular happened.

Speaker 39 They just drifted.

Speaker 22 Overall, he says, his life has been nominal and fortunate.

Speaker 30 When I ask how so, he cites the fact that he's never been homeless, although there was a brief period in 2014 when he ended up in a veteran shelter.

Speaker 33 He was fine, he says, except for the fact that he couldn't control the heat or the air conditioning.

Speaker 38 And shortly after that, he moved into a room in his friend Carl's house, which is where he is now.

Speaker 32 I took a video of her telling the story. I don't know if you're interested in hearing it.

Speaker 33 Debbie wants Stephen to hear what he meant to Anita in Anita's own words.

Speaker 30 In response, Stephen says that he doesn't have access to a car right now.

Speaker 45 Plus, he's sick in bed.

Speaker 15 I assume he thinks we're asking him to go somewhere, so I try again to explain.

Speaker 47 We could try to play a little bit of the video over the phone so that you can hear Anita's voice.

Speaker 11 Um, not right now.

Speaker 11 Um, I'm good.

Speaker 35 Uh,

Speaker 35 it's no misunderstanding.

Speaker 14 Stephen doesn't want to hear Anita.

Speaker 19 Still, Debbie tries to explain her mom's feelings for the baby she held during that flight to America.

Speaker 32 I think in some ways she felt like sympathy with you, you know, like sympathetic with you, that you were both leaving your homeland.

Speaker 12 I mean, is it strange to think that as a baby, you were able to have such a strong effect on somebody?

Speaker 11 Well,

Speaker 11 I

Speaker 11 don't think of it as that, but

Speaker 12 well, how do you think of it?

Speaker 11 That could be

Speaker 11 anything.

Speaker 11 Like, I love this little toddler.

Speaker 11 You know, I love pizza.

Speaker 11 It could be

Speaker 11 anything.

Speaker 33 The conversation feels like an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object.

Speaker 14 If it's a battle between optimism and pessimism, it feels like pessimism pessimism is winning.

Speaker 11 It was surprising to get the letter.

Speaker 11 And I thought, what are these

Speaker 11 people doing?

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 32 I just felt like it was a gift.

Speaker 11 Okay, thank you.

Speaker 49 Yeah.

Speaker 11 I'm a little old now

Speaker 11 to

Speaker 11 be concerned.

Speaker 47 Do you feel like it's too late?

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 11 I do.

Speaker 30 That baby Stefano doesn't exist anymore.

Speaker 39 When he was taken out of Anita's arms, he became Stephen. And Stephen is a 68-year-old man dealing with ill health.

Speaker 33 The feelings of a stranger who encountered him for one day as a toddler seem largely irrelevant.

Speaker 39 Debbie wanted to give Stefano a gift, but Stephen doesn't want that gift.

Speaker 11 I'm going to have to discharge now,

Speaker 11 so I'm going to leave you folks me.

Speaker 12 Before he goes, though, Stephen asks if we could mail him a copy of the photograph. of Anita and him on the plane.

Speaker 11 Mail that to me?

Speaker 4 Yeah. Please.

Speaker 11 Okay, thank you.

Speaker 32 Okay. Thank you.
It was so nice talking to you. I really appreciate you taking the time.
I wish you the best. I wish you well.
Okay.

Speaker 11 Thank you.

Speaker 39 After we hang up, Debbie and I sit in silence for a moment.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 34 Yeah.

Speaker 14 It's hard to know what to make of any of it.

Speaker 33 On the one hand, Stephen's reaction is reasonable.

Speaker 7 It is strange to be called up by the daughter of a woman you spent one day with when you were a two-year-old.

Speaker 33 In some ways, the story of Anita and Stefano was an easier one to tell when it was incomplete.

Speaker 38 A woman immigrates with a baby and thinks about him for the rest of her life.

Speaker 4 And then, what?

Speaker 33 The baby becomes a man and doesn't care?

Speaker 37 The man who was once the baby faces hardship?

Speaker 39 Nice anecdotes become harder to sum up when you involve the lives of real people.

Speaker 32 He took it differently than I thought.

Speaker 32 Definitely took it differently than I thought.

Speaker 32 It just, I think the part that makes me cry a little bit is that he didn't want to hear my mom.

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 32 But you can't make people, you know, see things the way you see them.

Speaker 5 You can never assume a gift, you know.

Speaker 14 Debbie is disappointed, though, not just because of what she wanted and didn't get.

Speaker 39 but because of what she did get.

Speaker 15 While our picture of Stephen's life is fragmented, the details he shared contained a lot of sorrow.

Speaker 32 And I don't know how my mom,

Speaker 32 I think maybe,

Speaker 32 how would it have been for her if she would have actually met him or talked to him? You know, maybe it's better that I did.

Speaker 46 How do you think she would have dealt with it?

Speaker 37 Like, what do you think she would have said to him?

Speaker 32 Oh, she would have told him she loved him. She probably would have invited him over.

Speaker 34 Really?

Speaker 32 She would have figured out a way to feed him. My mom loved deeply.
Yeah, she really loved people deeply.

Speaker 32 The love that was more than pizza. He can't, I don't think he could even comprehend it.
I think most people couldn't comprehend that.

Speaker 33 In that video of Anita, the one that Stephen didn't want to hear, there's a moment where Anita wonders if she's being understood.

Speaker 43 That's a nice story, and I don't know if you understand it.

Speaker 32 I think so.

Speaker 33 When I first saw it, I assumed assumed she was referring to her accent, her less than perfect English. But now, I wonder if there was something more behind it.

Speaker 13 We live our lives in the desperate hope that if we find the right words, tell the story the right way, our love will be understood. We will be understood.

Speaker 30 We hope, even as we misconstrue and grow offended and talk past each other, we hope love, some iota of it, will get through, even though time and time again we're disappointed.

Speaker 39 The next time I speak with Debbie, she tells me how the night after her call with Stephen, she woke up at 3 a.m.

Speaker 15 from a bad dream.

Speaker 35 She got out of bed and went downstairs.

Speaker 22 It was pouring outside.

Speaker 15 And Debbie thought about Stefano, the boy her mother held on the airplane back in 1959. And she thought about the man she spoke to on the phone.

Speaker 13 65 years later.

Speaker 1 And she thought about her mom.

Speaker 22 And she grieved, crying for about an hour.

Speaker 37 Maybe this will plant a seed for Stephen, Debbie tells me.

Speaker 14 After all, he did seem to really want that photograph.

Speaker 6 Maybe someday he'll look back at the thing she was trying to tell him, and he'll finally feel that love from her mother.

Speaker 5 It seems like an unlikely hope.

Speaker 39 But in this way, Debbie is like her mom.

Speaker 11 Now that the furniture's returning to its goodwill home

Speaker 11 Now that the last month's rent is scheming with the damaged deposit

Speaker 11 Take this moment to decide

Speaker 11 if we meant it

Speaker 23 This episode of Heavyweight was produced by Khalila Holt and me, Jonathan Goldstein, along with Phoebe Flanagan.

Speaker 13 Our supervising producer is Stevie Lane.

Speaker 14 Editorial guidance from Emily Condon.

Speaker 52 Special thanks to Ben Natifaffrey, Lucy Sullivan, and Trina Menino.

Speaker 23 Emma Munger mixed the episode with original music by Christine Fellows, John K.

Speaker 52 Sampson, and Bobby Lord.

Speaker 57 Additional scoring by Blue Dot Sessions, Saigon Would Be Soul, and Katie Mullins. Our theme song is by The Weaker Thans courtesy of Epitaph Records.

Speaker 57 Follow us on Instagram at Heavyweight Podcast or email us at heavyweight at pushkin.fm.

Speaker 57 Tune in next week for a special Pushkin anthology show about mistakes with the hosts of Risky Business, Cautionary Tales, and Heavyweight.

Speaker 52 Hey, that's me.

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