Chiefs-Bucs Recap + Dennis Allen FIRED (with James Palmer)

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Deadline,

Patrick,

another one-score game.

This one in overtime, another win for you guys.

Just what was the difference?

Take us through that slow, methodical game-winning drive.

Yeah, I mean, we got to run in the football again.

I mean, obviously, we were doing stuff good early in the game, but we couldn't finish draws.

And Kareem took it on himself to get running again, and we were able to do it in the end.

That's a great football team.

Hold on one second.

Hold on one second, Patrick Mahomes tells Lisa Salters of ESPN as he reaches out over to Todd Bowles, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers head coach, to say thank you.

That's what I think he said thank you.

Probably said good game, but should have said thank you because Todd Bowles and the Bucs had a chance to do something really special on Monday night football.

They had a chance to knock off the Chiefs in stunning fashion.

in the final seconds of play, but instead, the onions were left in the grocery store.

The Bucs elect to kick the extra point and go to overtime, and then the Chiefs do what the Chiefs do because the Chiefs are inevitable.

Dan Hans is here with Mark Sessler and Gravedigger along for the ride as well.

We got James Palmer coming up a little bit later to break down some of the big league news, firings, trades, et cetera, et cetera.

And yeah, Sess Dog, we're going to get into this game first because the Chiefs are now 8-0 as we hit the halfway point of the season.

The Bucs, 4-5, put up a valiant effort, got a lot of positive things to say about the Bucs, but we got to start there, I think, because I think that's how people will remember this game.

Tampa Bay going down the field in the final minutes of regulation, getting the touchdown to Ryan Miller from Baker, who played beautifully, I thought, in this game, but electing for the PAT.

They lose the coin flip, and then they never see the ball in overtime.

Yeah,

you know, it brought a weird memory to me.

We've talked about this before, but like every fourth week during the month, back when we were young, like the, you know, Saturday Night's main event would replace

SNL Saturday Night Live.

Yeah.

Yeah, it would take it over.

And like, you know, it always was, it was a showcase to go through, you know, wimps fighting,

you know, upper-level wrestlers, but then there'd always be the Hulk Hogan showcase at the end.

And you'd sit there as a child or a youth or a teen,

and you'd watch that Hulk Hogan match wondering if there was a possibility that he would ever lose.

And he wouldn't, like, he never would, right?

He never would.

It was the yellow.

He's in his yellow tights.

He looks the same.

And he does the same thing every time at the end of every game.

And that's how I felt about these.

That's how I feel about every Chiefs game, kind of.

And that's where I get my Tony Romo thing baked in there.

But tonight is sort of like the

classic example.

Like, don't you, Todd Bowles, know what I know?

That this is just going to go, it's just going to go the way that we all know it's going to go.

If you're not going to go for the two,

and look at, if you don't get it, we all kind of understand what you were trying to do.

But if you get it, you just

knock them out.

But instead, you give the ball back to Patrick Mahomes

with time.

In overtime, he's been 11 of 13 on third downs tonight.

They've won five one-score games, and you're giving the ball back to Patrick Mahomes.

And I just have seen this.

It's like those Hulk Hogan matches.

It's like those Hogan matches.

I've just seen this so many times.

Here's the thing.

It's even worse if you really think about it.

If you look at, let's see, let's check out the play-by-play scoring summary, 27 seconds

when the Miller to Baker connection happens.

And the Chiefs, I believe, had two timeouts at that point.

So the Chiefs are getting the ball back in regulation also.

And credit to the Tampa Bay defense because

they held him, I think it was, you know, third and one, second and one, third and one.

They get off the field and force the punt that sends it to overtime.

So it's like

when you score that touchdown to make it 24-23,

there is a very real chance, and this is how it played out, that the Chiefs will get the ball twice before you get the ball.

And are you willing to live with the chances that you're going to survive that?

And the Bucs didn't.

And I think, you know, I tweeted something about it, and there's a lot of Tampa Bay fans that said, well, it didn't surprise me because this is part of the Todd Bowles experience.

And it's, you know, I've been in such a fog of war about the Jets that the Todd Bowles era feels like a long time ago.

But yeah, he was always conservative.

He was conservative back then, maybe not defensively,

you know, as a defensive coach who loves to get after the quarterback and take chances with the Blitz.

But in game management and offensive philosophy, I just don't think

that's not how you attack the Chiefs at this stage of the NFL.

And that's the frustrating thing because I think, correct me if I'm wrong, Mark, in week one, the opening Thursday, the Ravens had the same exact situation where they went down the field.

At the end of that game, they got the touchdown, and then the Isaiah likely play.

Do I have that right?

Was that a two-point conversion attempt as well?

Or was that just a play

for a touchdown?

We'll have to change it.

Well, I believe it was.

I'm going to look right now for you.

Let's see.

Yes, while you do that, let's listen to Todd Bowles explain himself.

Why did he pass on going for two and potentially stealing one in Arrowhead?

Todd, it's a tough way to finish the game.

Did he give any thought to go in for two after the touchdown?

There at the end,

very minor.

We wanted to get it to overtime with the wet conditions on the field.

We felt like we had to go in overtime instead of going for two.

So we had our shots.

You know, we lost the game.

I mean, come back to us, Todd.

Very minor was your level of thought.

Very minor.

And because of the wet conditions, that's even more reason, Mark, that you got to just go for it.

You need to embrace it.

You need to, dare I say,

heed the call, man.

Yes, you do.

Yes, you do.

Yes, you do.

And like, look at, like,

you are, you are,

you're the Tampa Bay Buccaneers with Chris Godwin out of the lineup, with Mike Evans out of the lineup, and you have a chance to beat the undefeated Kansas City Chiefs.

You have got to do the most daring, you've got to, it's a choose your own adventure.

You've got to take the most daring possible route.

And we're hearing Todd Bowles trying to explain why he didn't and he's using it on earth weather conditions.

So I am completely against the decision.

I think in that situation, it's kind of like your season alters on this.

And they've got a rough road coming up schedule-wise.

So, you know what, Tampa Vue?

Like, Buccaneers, we sort of say goodbye to you.

Like, I can't really believe in the concept of what you are at this point.

I did a couple weeks ago, but I don't know if you can't make this decision.

Here's the thing.

I disagree with you.

I think what makes it so frustrating to me.

And by the way, the week one play against the Chiefs, who are 8-0, but when they went 1-0, Isaiah Likely's toe came down, big toe came down on the white chalk.

That would have made it a one-point game.

And John Harbaugh, a guy that

understands the moment in this situation, is already calling from the sideline, we're going for two.

And then New York stops the play and

reviews it and overturns the touchdown.

So, what the memory there is: the Ravens, they were going to go to, because they understood, same situation, we're going to try to steal one here in Arrowhead, because if we're going to leave it to the football gods in Arrowhead,

we know how this is probably going to turn out, and that's exactly how it turned out.

So, you know, but on the Bucks side of things, I mean, how could you not be impressed by this team?

And I'll say this, like, I have never been the biggest Baker fan, and he started to win me over last year, but still, there was a part of me that was like, well, he's actually in a good situation with a good play caller and Canalis, and he has these two stud wide receivers.

Well, now all three of those people are gone.

Canalis is gone, Liam Cohen's in his spot.

Chris Godwin is ancient history.

Mike Evans has been on the shelf for nearly a month.

And what does he do?

He keeps finding ways to move the offense.

And that's, again,

I don't know.

Maybe I'm overreacting because the the game just ended.

But I cannot believe Todd Bowles did not give Baker Mayfield, a guy that was born for the moment, the chance to win that game.

I think he stole potentially a season-defining win that could have catapulted this team to an NFC South title.

I think those were the stakes.

And to let that sneak away is, quite frankly, like if they end up missing the playoffs, when management has to look back on the season that was and do we want this guy leading our team, I think this would be a hard game to forget.

Put it that way.

I think that's well said.

And I'll argue against my own point.

So let's look at this.

They play the Niners next week.

That could move you to, at that point, four and six.

But then look at the schedule.

You've got the Giants.

They are floating in an abyss.

The Panthers, check you later.

The Raiders.

Then they have the Chargers.

Then

they have the Cowboys.

We don't know where that team will be at that point.

Then the Panthers and the Saints.

That's one of the softest schedule.

That's the easiest schedule in the league.

That may be the softest schedule down the stretch.

Now, I think the other NFC South teams would mirror that to some degree,

but that's manageable.

So there's wins there.

And so you're right.

And I'm with you on Baker.

I just think,

come on, go take the win tonight.

Go do something to the Chiefs that people can't do and don't have a chance to do.

And you didn't do it tonight.

You gave the ball back to Patrick Mahomes.

I just, that bothers me.

It's just, again, it's a repeat.

It's a repeat.

And if you look at, they've lost four of five, and in those, in that stretch, they've given up 30 points, 27 points, 41 points, 31 points, 30 points tonight.

Like, Todd, like, sorry, bro.

I know you're a defensive guy, but your defense has not been answering the call

for much of the season.

So you got to steal the win.

So that is just, to me, one of those things where

that will stick, that will stick to the ribs of a Bucs fan.

and I feel you.

So Baker goes 23 of 31, 200 yards at two touchdowns.

You know, he had one pass early on that could have been an interception and was dropped, but otherwise played very clean.

And to be able to move the ball the way he has moved the ball these last two weeks with this

cast of characters that he's playing with has been really impressive.

And that is not to take away from people like Bucky Irving and Kate Otten, who's turned into a big-time player all of a sudden.

Sterling Shepard has made plays during this run.

They have found people who have stepped up, but it's been Baker that's led the way.

On the other side, you know, I thought this was a,

you know, Mahomes doesn't fill up a box score anymore, Mark.

That's one of the weirder things about this dynasty that

as the dynasty has gone on, it's like the inverse of Tom Brady and the Patriots, where Brady started out pedestrian and they were winning titles, and then as they went deeper into their run, he became, you know, an elite producer statistically.

Mahomes is the other way around.

He's kind of gone into a more mundane place, but today, 34-44, 291, three touchdowns, pass rating plus near 117.

They have a near miss early on with, I believe it was worthy that would have made those stats look even bigger.

Justin, what was the status of Mahomes' first three-touchdown game in how long?

First three-touchdown game since week seven of 2023, and that includes the the postseason last year.

Think about that.

I mean, that is absolutely wild.

So, Mahomes putting up the numbers, and then Kareem Hunt, Mark, your old friend,

he has really stepped up with Pacheco out, 27 for 106,

and a touchdown, including the game winner and overtime, and just a lot of tough running, which has been a hallmark of his tenure in Kansas City, this latest tenure, I should say.

It's pretty remarkable.

I mean, the people that are leading the charge for them weren't even on the team a number of months ago.

You've got Kareem Hunt, like you said,

looking like a top 15 running back,

looking young, looking spry.

And I think it's a huge, one of the bigger stories in the AFC is that DeAndre Hopkins,

I saw someone in the athletics say, he just fits right in.

And that's exactly how I see it too.

He just fits right into this offense.

And the idea that I think it's fair if other AFC teams or GMs, owners, executives look around and say, wait, Titans, you just like sold this guy to the Chiefs?

Like, and you changed the complexion of the AOC entirely.

Like,

this is the perfect place for DeAndre Hopkins, and he looked great tonight.

And then you have Travis Kelsey, like, last three or four weeks, he's emerging tonight.

An incredible 16 targets, 14 catches.

I think it's a career high for him, 14 catches, I believe it is.

And then, you know, so the Chiefs are going to just, they're going to do it in a way that is unremarkable.

It's not going to be visually tantalizing the way that some offenses would be,

but they do it.

Yeah,

that's how a 100-yard game comes from Travis Kelsey these days.

You might need 14 catches to get there, but he remains, even if he's not the same explosive type of athlete that he was in his heyday, he's still obviously someone that Mahomes trusts, and he had many, many big catches in this game.

Yeah, the Hopkins thing, to see how immediately he

has looked comfortable in this offense has been really eye-popping.

Like, you look at that last drive in regulation, the fruitless one that led to the punt that then sent the game into OT, they had a miscommunication on third and one, and

that was odd because they had been locked in all throughout the game.

So it just, you know, that I think that speaks to, again, the scheme of Andy Reid and Hopkins, his intelligence as a football player, and then the greatness of Mahomes because I think a lot of teams, we see it with Aaron Rodgers and Devontae Adams, although they finally got it going a little bit this week.

It takes time if you just haven't worked together

and Hopkins and Mahomes have never played together unlike Rodgers and Adams, but to step into this game and fill that void of Rashi Rice and Hollywood Brown,

it really jumps out to you.

Any other thoughts on the game, Mark?

Well, no, just, I mean,

this is the experience of the Chiefs, and I think this is what they're going to look like the rest of the year.

They're not going to go and blow you away with, they don't blow teams out.

It's 5-1 score wins this season.

This is how it works.

But, hey, next team that has a chance to, you know, squeeze the neck, to choke them out, don't let them back in.

Like, don't do it.

Like, can we learn from this?

Other teams in the league, don't give them one final chance.

That's the Chiefs' story tonight.

And it's like, don't do it.

Go for it.

I'd rather lose by trying to absolutely seal victory in a mercenary way than what we saw tonight.

Absolutely.

As my mother is known to say, don't spit in the sky.

Well, bingo.

Bad things will end up happening.

Yes, always.

To me or to someone else.

The Chiefs, man, like, to your point, I just watched, you know, I'm still processing what happened at the end of the baseball season, and the Dodgers killed the Yankees in the little things.

And

the Chiefs kill you in the margins, open field tackling,

ball control, third and manageable conversions.

They don't kill themselves with penalties or turnovers or negative plays or coverage buffs.

And those little things add up, and it's the difference in one-score games.

Like, Kareem Hunt is a perfect example of this.

He is a one-of-one player in the league.

I saw one of those charts.

One of those charts where it's like

there's the vertical line and the horizontal line and there's the four line.

Yeah, like a rise over run, but like with teams and players and stuff.

So Kareem Hunt is in his own category.

There's no other running back in the league like Kareem Hunt right now.

So, in this chart, it charts explosive plays and then plays for positive gains.

And he is in his own world.

He almost never has a negative play.

He almost never has an explosive play.

All that f ⁇ ing guy does is pick up three to four yards every time.

And that's what this chief team, that's what they need.

Because you put Bahomes in third and manageable, you put him in third and five, third and four, and he will find a way to do it with his legs or his arms.

So he's a perfect hit for this team.

But Pachenko will add another level to that offense.

And one last injury note: Mahomes on that beautiful improv flip touchdown pass he had in this game

turned his ankle.

It had been an ankle that had put him, it was on the injury report earlier this week.

And that Paul falls over the stadium and blah, blah, blah.

But you knew it was going to happen.

He went into the blue tent.

He popped right back up out and then finished the game.

So I'm sure that will be.

I'll keep him on the injury report, but don't expect him to miss time.

No, he only becomes more powerful.

The minute you start to hurt the ankle of Patrick Mahomes, he only becomes more powerful and

more servant.

It's true.

It's happened like it's literally happened multiple times.

So I, I,

again, like, I go back to my, you know, Saturday Night's main event.

These narratives, they're weather worn, and we like them because they're comfortable, but they are weather worn.

And they're

right.

To your point, like, and this, if you're a younger fan of pro wrestling, this could be John Cena.

This could be The Rock.

This could be, I don't know.

Give me one, Justin.

Dustin Rhodes, whatever.

Justin's like, I like the ladies of wrestling.

What are the names?

Glow?

Glow.

Let me see, this most famous current wrestler.

Jessica watched Glow.

I have never been into wrestling in any way, but

Undertaker.

Undertaker.

Come on, Undertaker is old.

All right, Seth Rollins, Roman Reigns, you know, whoever it is, like whether they're a face or a heel, when it's their time to win the match, they're going to do their version of hulking up and finish the deal.

And that's exactly what the Chiefs did in overtime.

So when you have a chance to avoid the Hulking Up, when you have the steel chair in your hand and the referees passed out face down on the mat, you crack the Chiefs on the goddamn head or you rue the day.

All right.

Let's take a break and then we'll dig into some big news from around the league with James Palmer.

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We have some breaking news out of New Orleans.

Dennis Allen in his third year as the Saints head coach has been fired.

I'm hurting right now, hurting, hurting for our city, hurting for our

organization, hurting for those guys in that locker room.

No, this one, this one hurts.

Like, you know, if I was, you know, if I was our fans, I'd be pissed right now, you know, because we are too.

Just minutes ago, Dennis Allen met with his staff, informed them of the decision of the organization, and sources say Darren Rizzi, the special teams coordinator, is expected to be the interim coach.

It went down late Sunday night after the seventh consecutive loss for the Saints in a season that has quickly gone to hell.

Dennis Allen is out, the second head coach, joining Robert Sala of the Jets to be dismissed in season.

The team announced it on early Monday.

Special Teams coordinator Darren Rizzi, named the interim coach.

He addressed the media, calling it a tough day

at Saints' headquarters.

And yes, these are tough times for the Saints.

Joining us now, one of our great buddies here at Underdog.

It is James Palmer.

And some people, Sess Dog, report the news, but some people kind of see the news before it is time to report it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, we are, you know, we're lucky to have, we have a prophet, you know, inside our underdog headquarters, and that's that's our friend in the square down below me.

That's James Palmer.

And of course, we don't celebrate dismissals with coaches.

We don't celebrate anything like that.

But the truth of the matter is, when we did our annual hot butt conversation in August, James Palmer, you pushed hard the notion that Dennis Allen's seat was hotter than anybody else in football.

And sure enough, he does not make it to Thanksgiving.

Yeah, I called it, guys.

I hate to say I called it.

For DA's family, I hate to say I called it.

But yes, that's what happened pre-you know, before this whole thing got going this year, before the seven games, before the start of the season.

And Dan, like, I think the reason I was hearing that is similar to the reason he was dismissed, but there's other reasons as well.

And I had kind of heard, like, the locker room wasn't kind of like wholly sold on DA.

And it's more complex than just losing your locker room, to my understanding, like talking to enough people over the last, you know, couple of days and then today.

it's in the manner in which it happened.

And I think the best way to describe it is

they're broken.

They don't know how to fix it, but they know DA can't fix it.

And so that's essentially where they're at right now.

And the two things that can't happen during a seventh game losing streak when I talk to people down there are you can't lose the locker room, which essentially happened.

It was a locker room unlike most that cover the team on a regular basis have ever seen in this league,

which was kind of glaring.

You got guys, you know, putting it out in public is usually what is kind of a last straw, right?

When you got guys tweeting from the bus and Kalen Saunders is talking about going to Cancun and not being in the postseason, like the public perception

is a Cam Jordan.

You're right.

The public perception is a big part of when these things happen.

And it's when ownership listens to public perception.

And ownership was also doing their due diligence, to my understanding.

Remember, the two things that set this off are you honor Drew Brees at halftime, and you're getting molly-whopped by Sean Payton on a Thursday night on national television, where most of those people stayed for the halftime, Drew Brees, you know, ceremony, and they were gone.

They were out of the Superdome for the second half.

And then, because that game was on a Thursday, it allowed Gail Benson, who oftentimes kind of leaves Mickey Loomis, who's maybe the closest thing to an owner that a GM sits at in this league, to handle a lot of things.

And Gail was able to spend that, you know, use that extra time, I'm told, to meet with players and kind of get their gauge on where things stood.

So I think that compounded with losing to obviously Carolina, who many believe is the worst team in football.

All of that kind of culminated to, we're broken, we don't know how to fix it, but we also know that our head coach right now is not the one that can fix it.

Can I ask you a question?

Because like, that's why we're here.

You know, when we talked about this on Sunday night, part of this was like,

there's a Mickey Loomis issue here, too.

I feel like Mickey Loomis survives through like multiple, you know, White House offices here.

Like, it's like, there's $71 million over the cap going into next season.

It's not that much.

That's 54 more than the next team.

And

I get it.

Like, they keep pushing the money down the stream.

But

it's a team with very little vision.

You don't understand what they look like or who they are at this point.

So Dennis Allen is an obvious sort of candidate to be scapegoated here.

Very much so.

But we knew going into the season, I thought like, you know, the Gardner Johnson separation with the Saints last two offseasons ago spoke to Dennis Allen's inability to get along with certain players.

And I think that, you know, you get the Jameis Winston play call that he called on his own at the end of the

Falcons game?

The Falcons game.

Close out of the game.

Smith got fired actually after that game.

What does it tell you about, you know, what the public perception is?

Like, that was an embarrassment for the Falcons.

Arthur got fired after that game.

Yeah.

Well, I'm just, it's like, I think Dennis Allen is not a shocking candidate to float away at this point

from the NFL head coaching circle.

But like, what's, what's next?

Like, how do you, like, how deep does it go?

Because Mick, like, I think Mickey Loomis needs to go too.

Yeah.

Well, just to add on to that, just, you mentioned, James, that he's the closest thing to an owner of Virginia.

Can you just explain that a little bit more, like, how he got to be in that position and what makes him different than other teams?

Yeah, there's only like two guys in this league that kind of sit differently than the rest.

I mean, there's Jerry, right?

He's an owner that is an acting essentially GM, but it's really Duke Tobin and Mickey Loomis that are kind of like the outlier.

And look at how long each of them have been in play.

I think Duke's like 99, I want to say, maybe there.

And so Mickey's been there for an eternity.

I don't see them moving on from Mickey Loomis, like to answer your question, Mark.

So you're just saying, James, because they're so entrenched, they've been there so long that the owner, it's almost like the organization can't imagine them not there.

Exactly.

There's a very small inner circle around Gail Benson since Tom passed away that she really, really trusts.

And Mickey Loomis is part of that small circle.

I mean, this guy was a...

He was essentially, wasn't he the GM for the Pelicans as well for a stretch?

Well, you know, which are like right there if you've ever been to that facility to be on the bottom.

You've been on that beach.

I mean, the buildings are right there next to each other if you're ever working in that little room with.

Baseball is completely different than basketball.

Yeah, it is more.

It is Mark.

We know more.

So, like, yes,

his role,

his

responsibilities are very different than most of the GMs across this league.

So, I think there's also been very little movement in that whole group.

I mean, Terry Fondo ended up leaving for Atlanta, but there hasn't been very much movement there.

There's a thought around the league, honestly.

The way he leaves

is when he retires.

That's when they make a move is when Mickey Loomis moves.

But Mark,

push this forward because we should.

You're right.

Like my numbers are a little bit different.

I thought I was right.

You're probably right.

I had 77 million over the cap, but tomato tomato

for next year because it's just astronomical.

Like Derek Carr's $51 million cap hit can either be what?

If you want to cut him post-June 1, it's 21 and 30.

If you don't, it's 50 next year.

And remember, DA is the one who brought him there and was the one who's lobbying for Derek Carr.

So where does this organization go?

Quarterback?

Because they were looking to make a move

in the first round.

They were looking to see what they could do in that top part.

So what's the future at quarterback?

It's an aging roster that we already know the financial spot that they're in that is built to win now,

but is

And I'd like to get your guys' opinion as well.

If you ask around, it's a middle-of-the-road head coaching opening.

And to my understanding, it's one,

and one executive told me this today.

This is a job where you're probably going to have to try to offer that coach a six-year contract because, like, the first two years are like not on him, right?

Like, if you're trying to get out of this, but the issue that they've gotten themselves into is it's a culture of winning, it's a culture of never really tearing things down since Sean Payton arrived.

And it's always, you mentioned, push the money down the line.

Um, at some point, you got to kind of you know meet the maker there and you're going to have to bite the bullet.

What head coach wants to be a part of that with the financial spot they're in?

This executive said, you're going to have to give this guy a six-year deal.

I've always wanted to do this as we transition.

We're talking here right now with James Palmer, the senior NFL reporter for Underdog Fantasy, NFL Insider Bleach Report.

Also, of course, the 89 podcast with Steve Smith.

James, let's talk about what's going on with the Raiders who shake up their staff.

It just seems like, as always, what else is new?

There's chaos around the Raiders.

It's been a little bit bumpy with Antonio Pierce there, to say the least.

They've benched Garner Minshew now three times in nine games, and now they shake up the staff, firing offensive coordinator Luke Goetze and two offensive coaches.

What are you hearing around the Raiders right now?

How'd you like that, Mark?

A little Francesa there.

I liked it.

Well, I don't know.

Anything that can kind of bring me back to my, you know, the childhood feelings, and that's what you did right there.

All right, on the raiders james wonderful okay uh end scene um listen this was a patchwork offensive staff from the from the jump i think that's the thing that's the most telling here if you remember and and i like to go back to this like what is cliff kingsbury thinking right now I mean, this is a guy that they had locked in and they wouldn't give him a third year on the contract.

And now he's sitting there hanging out with Jaden Daniels every week, coming up with different ways to run a flea flicker to a screen pass.

He's living his best life while he just avoided disaster with that Raider situation.

Like Rich Scangarillo, who was the quarterback coach, and I know Rich a little bit in his time in Denver and Philadelphia.

And, you know, he's bounced around.

He's always been somebody that Kyle Shanahan has trusted a lot in the past.

He was the only one that really had any ties to Luke Getze.

Like, you know, that should show you right now with kind of how that offensive staff was put together.

And now I think what we're seeing is like Antonio Pierce is going to get the opportunity to try to start doing some more things his way.

But I'm curious how much time he's going to get to do that.

Because I spent a little time with the Raiders.

I covered their game against Denver a few weeks ago and getting the sense of like he's really learning on the job as a head coach.

Like really learning on the job.

This oftentimes his player persona comes out, I'm told, like, you know, the business decision thing, we're going to make some big, like that.

Can't you picture him saying that with like

shoulder pads still on in a locker room that's private?

But like his

going back earlier when we were back in our NFL media days, when Singletary took his pants down in the 49ers locker room.

And I don't remember what, I don't remember the exact circumstances, but like it was a big story because it's like the head coach doesn't do that.

That's something a player or the linebacker does to make some point, whatever the point was.

But

when the coach is acting like a linebacker, it's not what you want.

Yeah, exactly.

And I think they're still navigating this.

I mean, the organization has at times had to tell AP, like, listen, as journalists, all of us love this.

They're like, hey, man, maybe you don't be so honest.

Like, maybe you don't tell everybody exactly what you're thinking.

That's not what head coaches do in the NFL, right?

Like, they definitely hide some more of what they're trying to, you know, discuss.

And so this has been an ongoing process with a lot of the ins and outs of running a team, essentially, as a head coach.

And

they're lost right now.

Like, I wouldn't be surprised if there's other changes that come, whether they're during the season or after the season.

Well, you just, you run out of people that you can fire.

Like, you know, go fire the play caller, fire the quarterback coach, fire the offensive line coach.

But it's like...

Where are we with the actual head coach?

Because

where I was a year ago was like, I thought Antonio Pierce

added energy to that Raiders team, and they seemed to really respond to him.

And it seems the opposite now.

And so I like it's the next move is like Antonio Pierce needs to go.

I don't have the reporting experience of a James Palmer, but we've covered the league in a different way for a long time, JP.

And what you want to do, if you're a coach that's under fire, if you're going to have to make a move, if you're going to have to play the chess piece of firing a coordinator or multiple coordinators, you want to be able to make that move in January.

So that's the move to placate ownership or the fans or whatever.

When the move happens at the end of October, early November, that is, to me, a sign that the head coach is in very deep trouble and it kind of sets the groundwork for what's going to happen in January.

I just, I get a feeling that Pierce could be one of those one and done guys, and this is the first step toward that.

Am I off?

No, you're not off.

And listen, I do cover the league differently.

You guys, I don't have the comedic chops of a Bob Hope or an Amanda Bynes, but

it's from the office.

But I was just like, listen,

but listen, you're exactly right, Dan, because honestly,

he comes out on Monday and says, well, we haven't decided who the play caller is going to be yet.

Like, okay, you made the move.

No, yeah, not good.

Now tell us where you're headed with this.

And so that's all part of being a head coach.

Tom has not been able to really kind of throw his weight around there yet.

We'll see what happens in the offseason when Tommy goes out there and helps them pick a quarterback.

Oh, boy.

God help us.

So really, like you're in a spot right now where

everybody's asking if you're going to trade Max Crosby.

Everybody's curious if Antonio Pierce is staying past this season.

Oftentimes

Mark is exactly right where the juice is there immediately for an interim head coach.

Like, I think Darren Rizzy is going to do that.

Like he has that energy.

You're going to see it.

But what does it often come?

It fades, like Mark just said, the juice that you get from that move midseason.

And then there were three players that Mark Davis regularly spoke to about the future of this franchise.

Do you guys remember who those three players were?

Let it.

Josh Jacobs, Devontae Adams, and Max Crosby.

Two of the three are now gone.

So where are you heading with all of this right now?

And oh yeah, you're going to definitely be in search for a quarterback.

I'm just curious if just a few things would have changed because they were very close to having this happening.

They were very close to trading up and landing one of these six quarterbacks in the first round and having Cliff Kingsbury be their offensive coordinator.

How different would things be in Vegas right now if both of those things happened?

And you want to butterfly affect it just a little bit more if they just continue to eat that poop in December with Antonio Pierce not giving them that boost.

They maybe have Jaden Daniels too.

They're maybe picking higher, honestly.

By the way, here's a great from ESBN News Services, October 30th, 2008.

49ers interim coach Mike Singletary wanted to get a a point across during his first halftime speech Sunday.

His team was down 20 to 3 and he wanted to illustrate how badly they were playing.

So a 49ers spokesman confirmed, Great.

Singletary dropped his pants.

The coach was wearing boxers.

Singletary, whose team has a bye week, issued a statement.

I used my pants to illustrate that we are getting our tails whipped on Sunday and how humiliating that should feel for all of us.

I needed something to dramatize my point.

There were other ways I could have done it, but I think this gets the message across.

That's a very religious thing.

That's like a favorite line.

I also would like to know: like, what, like, are the boxers, they've got to be non-designed, they've got to be, you know, I'd say simple, uh, stark.

I just like the

reporter felt it was necessary to let people know he wasn't hanging brain.

That's what I'm talking about.

That's what I, well, that was, yeah, that was the question.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

I was like, you need to.

Just to know this wasn't

a free, breezy situation.

Because then it's a whole lot.

Then it gets kicked up to a whole different department.

It gets kicked to HR, and then we're talking that a whole different thing.

It does.

Yes.

Are tidy-whiteys a different scenario?

Or are they like, did people go, oh, no.

Or Boxer Breet?

Yeah, this is a...

I just wish we could be in the other conversation.

Because somebody's typing it up.

Right.

And they're like, and so what's the line?

He was where...

Was he?

Oh, he wasn't.

But we should anyway.

He was where he was.

Right.

It's almost like, yeah, you picture the editor over the shoulder of the journal and he's like hey we might want to bang a graph in here just making it clear he wasn't hanging brain a graph they're pacing behind them going read it back to me

just one line just one line graph not hanging brain and then we move um

we will move to other topics now uh the cowboys have been absolutely a disaster this year um injuries have played a role in that of course it's not the whole reason why they've struggled this year but it has not helped and now Dak Prescott will miss multiple weeks with this hamstring injury he suffered in their latest loss on Sunday against the Falcons.

I guess the only good news is the CeeDee Lamb shoulder injury is not felt to be serious, but it is very serious and very grim, Mr.

Palmer, that it is now Cooper Rush tasked with saving a season that is sinking faster than the Titanic.

I mean, just like the Titanic, is there saving?

I mean,

I don't think there is saving for this season.

It's probably going to be the same fate, and Mike McCarthy is going to be the bearded gentleman that was standing there just going down with this bad boy.

I don't know the actor's name, maybe Mark does,

that played that role in the Titanic.

I think he was Captain Smith, I believe he was.

I don't know what the actor was, yeah.

Yeah, she got to sink.

I'll research that while you guys

discuss that.

Captain Edward Smith went down with the ship on April 15th, 1912.

Yeah, exactly.

I took a date once to

like a Titanic exhibit in Columbus when I was in college.

Hubba hub.

And there was a bunch of pieces from the Titanic there.

And you got a boarding ticket.

It was a boarding pass or

what is it when you board a ship?

As an actual individual.

And I was a blacksmith from Scotland, a real person.

Oh, you're in the bottom of the ball.

You stole my status.

And I was like, bro,

I died.

I'll tell you I died.

Find out if you live or die at the end.

Definitely water in the light.

I did that here in Los Angeles, and I found out that I I was like the bottom level of the ship, some sort of

shoehorn type of guy that's like, you know, shoe-shining people's shoes.

So, disaster.

That was me.

We went down.

That must have hurt, Mark, because I know you picture yourself as more like

a rascal, like a Leo type who sneaks up to the top deck and nails the hot chick up there.

But in reality,

you were drowning with a bunch of peasants.

Oh, I died.

I pictured myself born on third base being up there.

Palmer definitely had the full white tuxedo.

And he was

the bats on my shoes and everything.

He had the best.

I never had it all.

I was rooting for Billy Zane in Titanic.

I was probably one of the few.

And that guy.

He's got a real Zane energy to you, James.

Yeah.

He only had a Zane cut.

He's got a little more flow, but he's wonderful.

Listen, the way this thing stands right now is exactly the way we described it.

Dan Orvlovsky said this, and

this is not out of the realm for my,

like, I don't want to say from like my understanding because that means it could happen.

But he mentioned like trading Micah Parsons.

I don't think that's crazy.

I really don't think that's crazy.

You could trade him when the value's high.

There's been some discussions about, you know,

you know, everything that comes with having Micah.

He's a very, very unique player.

Dan Quinn had an unbelievable ability to relate and get to Micah.

It seems to be in some people's minds something that not everybody can do.

It's a unique talent that probably

would

bode you quite a bit in return, obviously.

And can you financially pay him?

Like,

am I wrong here?

Isn't it like CeeDee Lamb and Dak Prescott are roughly half their salary cap next season?

I mean, then you're going to tack Micah onto that.

I mean, if this is in Jerry's mind,

when you re-evaluate your scraps at the bottom and he goes down in a little submarine thing to check out on what's left of the Titanic down there, hopefully his has a better fate

than the last people that went down.

Well, don't use an Xbox controller if you're going to go 20,000 leagues under the sea.

Let's start there.

I was enamored by the entire thing.

Very fair.

It was like a kid-in-a-well type deal.

But listen, I do think you could go, We have more problems than we want to admit we have.

And does this draft capital help us?

I don't think Jerry Jones has the stones at 82 years old to make a move that essentially.

It's an anatomy thing or a...

What's that?

Or like a

anatomy thing?

Yeah, I don't think he has the balls.

I don't think he's got the onions.

Just like Todd Bowles didn't have the onions to go for two tonight.

I don't think he has the onions to pull off a move like that that would be a step back, obviously, maybe two steps back, maybe three steps back, with the idea that it moves the organization forward.

Because at 82, maybe, maybe, you know what, maybe stones, maybe onions, maybe balls isn't even what it is.

It's almost just like,

I don't know, James, if

Jerry Jones is able to look at his baby that way.

And sometimes you got to look at the baby that way, but I don't think this owner is wired to make a move like that.

There's a lot happening with this analogy with the baby and the other stuff, but yes.

Do you hate the idea, though?

No, I think it makes a lot of sense, but it takes, like, Mark, do you agree?

It takes a lot of,

it takes a lot of guts and it takes a hard swallow, basically, to say.

Yeah, from the Jerry Jones,

that person and that personality, that particular person,

who has not receded from his opinion that the Cowboys are this high-end shiny thing.

literally ever.

So yes, I think it would be an admission of something that he can't, he's not said verbally.

That would be a shocking trade.

I would ask you this, like, outside of Micah Parsons, are there any other names out there that would, like,

you know, it's coming tomorrow.

It's like, it feels like we already know there's been a bunch of little trades.

Is there a name out there that might blow our faces off or not?

That's a great, it might date the podcast, but at the same time,

if James gets this right, once again, it sets up Palmer for a victory lap.

So, James, take it away.

No, I don't, I don't, I don't think so, Mark.

It would be just a haul.

People have tried on Miles Garrett,

Max Crosby.

Those are kind of the two names because all we're hearing right now is receivers and pass rushers.

I mean, that's really it.

Maybe an offensive line move, but that's really what everybody's kind of kicking the top.

So there's no like Anthony Richardson or Bryce Young or any of that?

No,

neither one of those guys are on the move.

Teams are curious,

but those two teams don't want to fully, which they've given up on their quarterbacks, but they don't want to fully admit they've given up on their quarterbacks, if that makes sense, which is why they're not moving either one of those guys.

Very good.

Anything else?

We got CMC back at practice for the Niners.

Is he going to be ready to go this week?

Big deal.

You know, guys, I'm going to do the cardinal sin of all podcasting and all

really just conversation with human beings.

My fantasy team won by less than

a point here.

I had 1% chance of winning on the final play.

Guess who's been on my IR all season long?

Christian McCaffrey.

You had him stashed.

I had him stashed.

I picked him first overall, which also shows you that even people who cover the NFL picked Christian McCaffrey first overall.

I had no idea this calf thing was coming.

That's a big deal.

I'd like to get your guys' opinion before, I don't know how long we have, but here, but like, to me right now, where we're at, I am beyond fascinated with the Cardinals, the Chargers, the Eagles,

and the Cincinnati Bengals on what happens in the next couple of weeks.

I think those are some fascinating teams.

I think the Chargers have turned a corner.

Jesse Minter Minter has been outstanding running that defense.

They've been really, really impressive.

Steve and I are going to break down Lad McCompkey in his comparison to Steve.

Private conversation, Steve and I.

Are we nuts to compare him to me?

That happened.

But we'll talk about that.

You've got to check that out.

Yeah, so that's a must-watch on 89 because we're going to

talk about Steve's opinion on that comparison.

But I threw those teams out, and I want to to hear if anybody else is interested in any of them, because things over the last couple of weeks have changed the perception of those teams dramatically, I think, at this point of the season.

I have like a Cardinals fascination.

Dan knows this.

Justin knows it.

They're probably annoyed by it.

But I think they're a very physical team.

I think they've rebuilt themselves.

We talked about it a little bit on Sunday night.

The right way.

Post-Klings, like Cliff Kingsbury, they've just become a team with their wide receivers are tall, physical, powerful.

They dominated the Bears on both sides of the line yesterday.

So I think they can go beat people up.

So that's the team of that group that you mentioned that they are on my radar.

I picked them as a wild card team out of nowhere just in August.

And I'm sitting on that prediction.

We'll see.

You're really trying hard to jinx them, aren't you?

You've had rough luck over the years, Mark, with teams that you've gotten behind.

Maybe like Zumwalt did, or my buddy Jason Zumwalt in Arizona, now in Connecticut, actually, James, die-hard Cardinals fan, he doesn't want anybody to talk about the Cardinals.

He wants them to just lay in the weeds and continue to build confidence.

Like, as a Jets fan who, you know, maybe gets sucked back in a little bit by the Texans' win, I don't want to go to the desert.

I don't want to go to Arizona this week.

I feel like that team's starting to feel itself.

And with the trade deadline around the corner, they're already making moves, obviously.

Yeah, their aggression.

They're calls.

I know Baron Browning's not a huge move, but how aggressive that they were making calls, I think, shows a very dramatic shift in the last couple of years.

You're right.

And you know what?

I understand the Niners.

I mean,

obviously, the Niners are always going to be in the mix,

and the Lions are the Lions.

And the Commanders are a great story, obviously, and they're 7-2.

But, man,

if you're on the if you're right on the edge of true contender status, this would be a good year to go for it.

Go all in, because I don't see some juggernaut out there that's going to

that's going to

just roll through the playoffs without any issues.

You could make the case for the Lions.

Obviously, they've had a great year so far.

But really, why not?

Why not build around Kyler?

And you have a young defense that's rising up and Marvin Harrison and James Conner.

There's a nucleus there.

Just go for it.

I love it.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I like it a lot.

And then I also, the reason I mentioned Cincinnati is like these next three games are insane for them.

I'm trying to remember exactly who they have, obviously.

Well, they have Baltimore on next, I believe.

Yeah, on Thursday.

Yeah, they have them on Thursday.

Here's the schedule.

I'm going to give it to you right now.

You call for it.

I'm going to give it to you at Baltimore, at Chargers, Home Steelers, and then at Cambridge.

That's all we need to know about the Bengals.

That's going to be the season right there.

And if they can make a move, as we saw tonight with Kansas City winning again, I think there's only one player that the Chiefs fear in the postseason.

I think it's Joe Burrow.

I've been there.

I've covered the games.

I've seen him in Arrowhead.

Burrowhead.

Burrowhead, right?

I mean, guys, I posted the

Twitter X or Twix, whatever you call it.

What we call Twitter around the audience.

Shameless plug for Twix this holiday season around.

Mark has very close feelings and intimate feelings for Elon Musk, but we tend to stick with Twitter here.

I'll go with it, but not accurately.

They were all Twix.

And so

I love them.

All right, Mark, you get it.

You love Elon Musk.

I get it.

Did you?

Yeah, he does.

Did you see him coming off after that fifth touchdown?

Like, did you see the look of Joe Burrow?

I put the video out on Twitter.

Oh, yeah.

Like, he was the most miserable human being to throw their fifth touchdown passive.

The man is on a mission.

And if he makes a run, I know that he's probably the one guy Steve Spagnola does not want to face in the postseason.

That's why I find them fascinating.

The one guy.

I've been sucked in many, many times by the Bengals because of that man.

Yes.

Yeah.

Because it's very much.

I don't count him out.

Yeah.

Pretty much.

All right.

James.

Guys.

You've said it all.

What are you, Howard?

I aspire to be on Sunday.

No doubt, no doubt about it.

No doubt about it.

Is that Nate?

Is that Nate Burlson trying to

interview like a God fanatic, Jameis Winston?

Just like, no doubt, no doubt.

God is the greatest.

God's the missing.

No doubt, man.

No doubt, no doubt.

No doubt, no doubt about it.

No doubt about it.

Listen, you've said it all.

Oh, my God.

You have no idea what I do to you.

That's a a good one.

That's a good story.

James, thank you very much, buddy.

You guys are the best.

All right.

Love it.

Thank you.

James Palmer.

Yes, check out the 89 podcast with Steve Smith.

Great stuff there, including apparently a comp between Ladd and James.

Well, I love that.

I can't wait to dig into that episode.

I don't understand what we're comparing,

but I want to listen to it.

Nimble Whites.

That would be my guess.

Oh, yeah, sure.

NLs or NWs.

By the way, yeah, we touched on it, but yeah, we are hours away from the trade deadline and coming up tomorrow for Patreon members only, patreon.com slash heed the call.

You have your chance to be involved with the trade deadline.

Give us some pomp and circumstance, Gravedigger.

The trade deadline live stream spectacular.

We should probably at some point give people a time on this, Mark.

When do we want to do it?

When's the deadline, Justin?

Let's figure this out in real time.

We got it.

We got that.

Got a trumpet here.

It's on our stack.

Trade deadline, 4 p.m.

Eastern.

So we had talked offline already about starting around 3.45 Eastern, go live.

15 minutes until the deadline as all the last-minute deals come in, and then maybe go another 15 past the deadline in case any late reports.

Is it a weird ask of the audience?

Like, what are we TBS in 1992?

Like, to give them

5.05 to check out Family Matters.

Like,

is 5 or is whatever the time we're doing?

I think that's confusing.

45 after the hour confusing?

I'd go round number.

Like, I think 3.45 Eastern is,

I won't be here on time.

I don't understand that.

So I think we need to

go round number.

Justin,

why don't we just do 3.30

Eastern?

Because we could last a little longer than 30 minutes if we need to.

Not you, Mark.

Yes, you can.

Dude, 30 seconds over there.

3.30 Eastern, 12.30 Pacific, 2.30 Central.

That joke was that you don't have great sexual stamina, Mark.

That's true.

But it's not like it's the joke doesn't work because it's not based in reality.

Sorry, we're talking over our own plug.

Go ahead, Justin.

8.30 p.m.

London time, which I don't know what that's pretty good.

I like that.

It's like if you're in London,

it's like your favorite show is like, Seymour and Harry.

Like, no, you're not going to watch Seymour and Harry on the BBC 2

this Tuesday.

Instead of the Seymour and Harry variety hour, you're going to please come join us.

The trade deadline live stream.

Supersede Seymour and Harry Variety Show.

And so check it out, 8.30 London Time.

Correct me if I any of this up, Justin.

So it's 8.30 p.m.

London time,

preempting Seymour and Harry variety hour.

It is 3.30 p.m.

Eastern Time in New York and Central Time.

It is

2.30

Pacific time, 12.30 p.m.

You got to be there live for the stream.

We're going to break down everything that happens around the deadline, and we will take questions from anybody that is watching along,

whether it's about the deadline or anything at all, Mark.

Let's make it a free flow.

Most people, like, when you tag them with like

a very an anchor on like Eastern time zone, most humans that are functional enough to listen to this show would be able to figure out what time it is in their civilization.

But that's nice that you did that.

I also think it's like, look, let's be honest, like, you could tape Seymour and Harry and watch our show, too.

There's some version.

It's not a VCR at this point.

It's some other type of a taping process, but you can have Seymour and Harry and our show.

Don't say taping.

You sound very old when you say that.

That's what my dad says, taping.

Yeah.

Okay.

Danny, I got to tape Harry Mason.

Well, I'm just saying you can have Seymour and Harry and the trade deadline show.

You could experience.

You could have it all.

Yeah.

But a lot of people like to watch Seymour and Harry live.

They do.

I think it's interface on social media.

I get that.

And it's communal.

I get that.

Danny, I love that Mason.

Speaking of TBS, my dad used to taped Perry Mason.

They had reruns every day on TBS, the Superstation, that aired, I think it was two-hour block.

It was like 12.05 and 105.

And my dad would, he would tape Perry Mason, then he'd come home from work.

And then he'd watch his Perry Mason stories.

Were they good?

Is that a good show?

I mean, I didn't really.

Tot Mason was great.

One of the great procedurals of all time with Raymond Burr?

Check it out, dude.

It's a good actor.

No, I know that my mom texted me after last Wednesday's forking show just to be like, Perry Mason, I love that show.

It's a great show.

I've seen many, many Perry Masons just through osmosis.

It was just always on in my house.

Anyway, we're off the beaten path.

So check it out.

And yeah, it's election day on Tuesday.

Get out there and vote.

It's your country.

All right, that's it.

Hey, you got a little public service announcer to close things out, out, so start.

You know what?

Like, I think it just tells everyone

who you are.

Tells us about you.

You know, like Puff Daddy once said, vote or die.

You know, and that's there's certain people you want to align yourself.

What?

No?

I would just keep Puff Daddy.

Okay, we'll just

vote.

That's it.

All right.

So until next time, do what you must.

Eat the call.

United Healthcare nurse Crystal checked in on a patient.

We do a routine call after surgery, and I could tell in her voice that she was struggling.

Crystal knew she needed help.

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This is life-threatening.

And she knew just what to do.

And I called the hospital and said she's coming in, here are her labs.

And got her the help she needed.

I see my role at United Healthcare as a life-saving role.

Hear more stories like crystals at UHC.com.

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