TNF Recap: Broncos-Saints

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who these teams have truly become.

The Saints dropped 91 points on the Panthers in Dallas in games one and two.

Women everywhere leaving their men for Clint Kubiak.

But injuries mount.

The roster is shredded.

They've now lost five in a row.

The Broncos, they start 0-2.

Identity-free, now 4-3.

Bo Nick's growing.

Cody Barton, defensive player of the week, barring someone taking out Hezbollah.

Sean Payton spoiling Drew Breeze's night in New Orleans.

Reverse homecoming.

I'm Mark Sessler.

This is Heed the Call.

Dan Hansis has the well-deserved evening off, and we're here with the dangerous one,

the host of 89 on Underdog with the great Steve Smith, James Palmer.

The real Thursday night football is back.

James, where would you like to begin with this 33-10 Broncos shredding of the Saints?

Where do we want to begin?

Yikes.

I think my initial thought out of the gate, Zest Dog.

Am I able to call you that now?

Or no?

Yeah, I think you could call me, well, almost anything you want to call me.

Almost.

I like that.

The door swung ajar now.

This game ended at the Drew Brees halftime ceremony, I think.

I think the fans even stopped booing in the second half.

We heard a lot of booze in the first half, right?

When you're lining up to punt fourth and one, you're down, they're booing.

It's like Drew Brees has the ceremony at halftime, and then they were kind of like, yeah, I think we're good.

I think that's why we came.

I think we're fine.

And like they were pouring out of the stands.

It was,

it's upsetting, honestly, because you mentioned the first two games.

This was a really fun offense to watch.

A lot of creativity from Clint Kubiak taking shots out of heavy personnel like Derek Carr unleashing deep balls.

And like, there's no players.

Like, I don't know if I've seen a team in recent memory hit like this.

You lose both corners again in this game to tack onto everybody that they were limping into this game with.

And what do we have?

A third string rookie center playing guard, trying to stop Jonathan Franklin Myers.

Like,

this is exactly probably what Sean Payton wanted.

I think that's what we're going to say.

I think Sean Payton wanted a drubbing, let's be honest,

and he got one.

It is very Sean Payton to want to win this game specifically.

Like, they talked about how he showed up, you know, more hours than normal before it all, you know, went down and went to a,

in a nice way, went to like a Drew Brees banquet or something.

Who knows what's happening at that event?

But you're right.

Like, if you, it's not fair to, I think the question for a couple weeks was like, did people figure out the Clint Kubiak offense?

But when you really think that's happening, no, it's, it's, because that's, that offense has proven to work in multiple forms all over the league.

You've lost Derek Carr, Chris Olave, Taysom Hill, Rashid Jahid out for the year.

Um, you mentioned the center situation, which is nuclear, Pete Werner on defense.

It's like your guys are gone all over the place.

And so it's Dennis Allen to me seemed like a sitting duck before the season.

And I mentioned.

Did we have that discussion?

We did.

We did.

And I mean, you were on that beat too.

And I think Saints fans have been on that beat for dating back for a while.

Like, they've been frustrated with him.

But that start made you think, like, well, maybe he's safe if they can do this.

Yeah.

It's not that it was a mirage.

It's just that you're one of these coaches.

And I think Al Michaels mentioned that they're the most injured team in the league.

I think we can...

That's up for debate.

There's a bunch of teams that are just so battered right now, but they're not able to function and do what they want to do on any level.

Yeah, I think that's a major part of it.

I don't know who, I'm trying to think who's on their level.

Like with the players you mentioned, your top two receivers

are top three.

Yeah, Rams are up there.

They lost their top two receivers.

Like they got three offensive linemen essentially out.

They're two best offensive linemen out of that group.

They're most versatile piece in Taysom Hill.

Like,

I'll be honest.

I had a defensive position coach in this league call me in the fourth quarter and say, I've been working what the hell is going on in this game.

And he was like, how many guys on this defense?

Because obviously he's looking at the defense, how many starters are on this defense that are out there right now?

I was like, not a whole lot.

And I told him about Tyron Matthew having a ball go off his chest, who's been one of my favorite players.

I covered him at LSU.

When he was at LSU, I was covering the SEC.

I don't think he's had an easier interception in his life.

He's got 35 in the NFL, the active leader right now

in terms of interceptions.

And number 36 was an exact example, or the not number 36, was the exact example mark of like what's going on with New New Orleans, right?

Like, it's it's exactly that.

And I think the conversation I wanted to have, because this game was a dumpster fire, if we're going to talk one thing on each team and we'll do that,

and we're talking Saints, where do they go from here?

Like, I think we are now envisioning a multi-year rebuild, like Atlanta Falcons, dead money, multiple years.

Tell the next head coach that's coming in, we know what we're putting you in.

I'm curious, is that Clint Kubiak?

Like, honestly, like a young guy that you think, like, oh, let's elevate him and say, Clint, don't worry, the first two years are on us.

They've pushed more money down the road than you can imagine.

Like, they can't fix this in one year.

I think they're going to be sellers.

I would look for teams to look at Chase Young.

I think they're already sniffing around.

That's a one-year deal.

Pass rushers are definitely things that happen, one of the things that happen at the deadline, even though receivers are one that we really have our eye on.

Like, the Lions,

the Eagles are looking for pass rush help, to my understanding.

The Ravens are looking probably for some help.

Do they start trying to dump some of this stuff off?

But also, financially, like, Mark, they're in a position where this is like they've pushed it down the line for so long.

And so many of these players are on the other side of 30, still good players.

Mario Davis, Tyron Matthew, Cam Jordan.

Cam Jordan is great pregame, by the way.

Fired up.

Did you see the pregame interview with Kelly Hartong?

I never miss a pregame interview

in any game, but I did miss this one.

Awesome.

She goes, Sean Payton brought you in in 2011.

And he just interrupts her and goes, Sean Payton's gone.

He's half media at this point.

So we know.

It was like WWE.

It was like the opening interview before

WrestleMania.

I've only been in the middle of the day.

Do you think even you could move on from, I mean, you get to a point with some of these teams where, and Gravedigger sent us during the game a, you know, a pretty trenchant tweet where it was like well they don't have like two or three guys that can save your cap

like the guys with the biggest cap numbers it's kind of spread out with it's dotted all over the place they're moving it down the road and it's like but can you move on from like alvin kamara can you move on we marshawn lattimore's name came up in trades he got hurt tonight but his name came up in trades um trade whispers all offseason so it's like it seems like almost anyone's expendable like who's the future here it's not derek carr no because remember they were they were, to my understanding, looking at quarterbacks in the first round heavily.

Like, they did a boatload of work on quarterbacks.

And if they were looking to do that, no, Derek Carr is not your long-term future.

Now, we did think in the first two games, like, maybe

a resurgence from Derek Carr.

This can, you know, this would work.

So I don't think anybody's safe.

No, I don't think the coaching staff's safe.

I think like a total

retool in New Orleans is what we're looking at.

And it's going to be fascinating to watch what happens.

I don't know if, I don't know, I don't want to say, I think Dennis Allen survives maybe the season because this isn't on him, these injuries, but the effort today, you're going to put on the head coach, whether it's his fault or not, right?

I mean, like Javante Williams, you saw him get in the post-game interview.

I thought there was one touchdown he had like inside the five where it was almost like he didn't understand why nobody was stopping him.

Like, you know, he's like falling into the end zone.

He's like, I thought this would be harder.

And he just goes into the end zone.

Like, that's on the, whether you like it or not, that's always put on the coach.

Well, yeah, and there was, there was a clip going out there where, you know, Spencer Radler in a tough situation and struggled, you know, and it's a tough, tough assignment, but coming off the field, mouthing like, what's going on here?

What are we trying to do?

It's like, I don't think Dennis Allen is someone you'd call a player's coach from what I've heard.

All right, that's the Saints side of things.

Let's talk some Broncos after we take a quick break where James and I, you know, during these breaks, here's what we do.

We spend three or four minutes just sort of luxuriating, taking, you know, eating all sorts of foods.

And people wonder what happens during these breaks.

The real breaks, we take plenty of time for ourselves.

We'll be back soon.

Big time.

Hydrate.

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audience only.

All right, we're back.

Let's talk some Denver Broncos.

You are a Denver man.

I used to live in Boulder in Denver and

probably went to some of the same haunts, but you know the Broncos really well.

And I was pretty suspicious of the Sean Payton experience in Denver.

Around this time a year ago for obvious reasons, who wasn't.

They really surged down the stretch.

He didn't have his quarterback.

He's growing one week by week now.

But it's also just the whole team, and it's the defense.

Like, Cody Barton tonight, we mentioned him like,

wow.

And Vance Joseph, one of the rare, like, head coach of a team and comes back as a coordinator.

I don't feel like that just does not.

That doesn't happen for so many.

It's kind of like, you know.

like relationships.

It just doesn't happen, but it happened here and it's working.

And the whole team to me seems to be kind of jiving well together and gelling and playing together well.

And like they're surrounding this young quarterback who's been really good on his feet too.

Where are we with this Sean Payton thing?

Like I was wondering how much he wanted to do this before the season, but I see something different now.

Yeah, I think he likes this challenge, Mark.

I think he likes this, as you said, growing a quarterback.

I don't know why in my head I started picturing like a baby Groot in a pot, like just growing into like hopefully a future Groot.

But like

this offense is not good.

Today was, you know, I think is not what we're going to see the rest of the way out.

I don't think this is like a turning the corner for the Broncos offense.

I think a lot of other, you know, things played into this game.

He is growing a quarterback essentially from scratch.

And I think Drew Brees being in, you know, the booth with Al Michaels and Kirk Herbstreet, OH, was kind of telling in the third quarter because he knows what Sean wants from a quarterback and demands from a quarterback better than any other human being on the planet.

And I think that's not even negotiable.

So the interesting things he said were like,

once Bo learns to play with his back to the defense and he plays under center more and he runs the play action game by turning his back and finding open receivers and plays out of what Sean wants to do.

He literally was saying the blueprint probably that Sean has said to Bo Nick saying in year two, year three, year four, we're going to get to all of these things.

Didn't you kind of get that feeling as you were listening to Drew Brees going like,

these are the exact things Sean Payton wants out of Bo Nix.

I don't think some of them he can do yet.

His footwork's still not great.

There was a couple throws today where I think he threw it like, both my guys are wide open, which is Sean Payton's system.

Just throw it between both of them, and it just hits the ground.

I think this offense is still one of, literally, it's one of the worst in the league still.

It's a bottom five offense.

I think it's fascinating that Sean Payton's only had one other season in his career where his quarterbacks had below a 90 rating for the first six games.

Bo Nix's is like a 70-something.

Yeah, I mean, Nick's had some, and we've seen this from a couple rookie quarterbacks.

Justin knows one really well, but like just some really absurd,

you know, splits between the first and second half.

But for sure.

You know, it helped.

You have Paulson Debo go out for the Saints.

We mentioned Lattimore.

You're playing a banged up defense.

And it's steps.

For me, it's just steps, halves and quarters, because

at the half of this game, they had 16 first downs.

The Saints had five.

They had owned the the ball for 20, almost 20 minutes.

They had 242 yards of offense and ended up with a bunch.

So it's like, I just sort of feel like if I want to trust one of these coaches to build an experience and to grow a quarterback, I think you're exactly right.

Breeze is like, I'm going to tell you about quarterbacks.

I'm telling you Sean's blueprint.

201, 301 with Sean Payton.

He knows, he's read all the textbooks.

He knows how the class works, and he aced it.

And so you're right.

He sees it in Bo Nicks.

Now, a lot of people say

these things about young quarterbacks.

And so it's like, we'll find out in time if this translates.

But I do see growth, drive to drive.

There are these moments where it's like, I can believe in Bo Nicks with Sean Payton.

Yeah.

But I also think, like, in the draft process, and obviously the draft process is a crapshoot because how many first-rounders have not hit and how many people have been wrong.

But I was told pretty universally the ceiling on Bo Nicks is not all that high.

We ain't got like, we're not living in an A-frame here, or we got a beautiful vaulted foyer.

The ceiling is not super, super high.

So, like, because he's played so much already, and he's developed so much already.

I think there's definitely ways he can play better, and I think you can, in the system, it always and fit always matter.

But I do think he's going to get much better.

I do think he doesn't make the same mistake twice very often.

I think he has a lot of really good offensive minds around him.

And I think we're going to continue to watch this.

He doesn't have a great group of skill guys around him.

Like, they put all their money into the offensive line.

I mean, I'm looking at, like, what Caleb Caleb Williams is playing with.

I'm looking at, look at the skill groups of every team in that division, honestly, between Minnesota and Green Bay and

Detroit and Chicago.

Like, I think

the Broncos would trade for any of those groups of skill guys.

I mean, you got Cortland Sutton, who barely was targeted, is like really your only playmaker.

Their Joker, quote-unquote, Joker, who has been Jimmy Graham in the past and stuff in that role for Sean Payton, was supposed to be this guy named Greg Dulcich,

who's now been a healthy scratch three games in a row now at at the tight end spot.

Joke on the Broncos, then.

Yeah, that's a joke on the Broncos for sure, Bob.

Yes, but Sutton wasn't invisible tonight.

He was.

I don't think he even did have a target.

Yeah, and so the interesting part is, and I mentioned this before the show, and look at Justin down there.

He's like, how long are they going to talk about this dumpster fire of a game?

Justin is so annoyed.

Justin's done a lot of targets.

Going big pictures.

He's very annoyed.

We saw a lot of targets to this guy, Devon Vele, who they got in the seventh round out of Utah.

He was a 26-year-old rookie who's actually, I think, a pretty decent player and had a great camp.

Troy Franklin, the other rookie receiver who's Bo Nix's teammate at Oregon.

Sean Payton thinks this draft class is going to be comparable to the 2017 draft class that he had with the New Orleans Saints.

It was one of the best draft classes we've seen in recent memory.

And he has told ownership this in Denver, which I...

I guess is like a cool conversation now, but in a few years, is it like an egg on your face type of conversation?

Hey, Sean, remember when you told us about that draft class in 2024?

Like,

I guess we're seeing those guys get run.

That's my point.

You know, we're seeing those young receivers get some run.

Jonah Ellis, the pass rusher there.

Like, so we'll see.

Sean has a lot of faith in this, and I think it's going to take some time.

I didn't think Sean would have a lot of patience because that's not a trait he has.

Yeah, that was my question, too.

But it is, he's got to be one of the most powerful head coaches.

And so the draft.

Oh, has all the right matters very much.

I don't know if you guys saw this, Justin, not to take another minute of your time here, but like I saw a commercial during this broadcast about Vasimeter systems, which are essentially hot flashes.

And there was for

a major pharmaceutical drug, Vioza.

And I support people with hot flashes.

I care about them.

But it was a bunch of people celebrating and running around having a wonderful time.

And

I don't quite get the product.

I mean, I don't quite know, I don't get the marketing strategy, but not that anyone needs to do it.

I don't think we're the demographic, Mark,

for this product.

That's fair.

Okay.

that's fair like i i don't think i am the the demographic but it just it caught my eye um during what was a very what was it called probasic

uh vioza well vasculator symptoms provasic's from from the fugitives

yeah no well there's a lot of these lying around yeah okay um yeah but they were i don't know i don't i guess like i'm i need to go research the the whole condition a little bit more.

I know that it affects people at a certain time in life, and I certainly care about them deeply.

James, we also,

we could have a second show maybe tomorrow about this game.

We can dial back four or five other points and sides to this.

There's a lot

to break down.

I got all these notes.

But you texted me something, because we like to do a little fun thing on the end of the night.

Like you said, you were up watching Pulp Fiction up in the mountains.

Last night.

Yeah.

Bro night.

That's as much as we know about it.

I don't know.

That sounds adventurous like that.

But you sent me something.

We'll put it up on screen here if you want to set it up.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

I did send this to you last night.

Yes.

Yeah.

Look at this.

This is Quentin Tarantino's list for pulp fiction on the characters and the actors that he would have liked to play the characters.

Obviously, we know, Mark, you are obviously a huge QT guy.

Like

a lot of these characters written for people.

Right?

Yeah.

Now,

I love the question you asked me because I was looking over this while I'm watching and I know you know this.

I sent it to you with what?

I said, I know you've seen this list.

And so

I want to know

what's one character that you think maybe,

I don't want to say could have done a better job, but you're intrigued to see, like, if they would have landed the role as opposed to who actually had the role.

Yeah, because the list is, and so the list shows to me, like I, like I text you, just,

I think if you're a screenwriter, you would write like characters based off of people you knew in real life that made you feel something, or actors.

Like Tarantino just went right to these lists of actors.

And it's fascinating to see, and I, because I think one of the biggest things that happened to Hollywood in the 90s was him using John Shravolta for Vincent Vega.

And I think there's no way, it's almost like you can't replace, I think I said you can't replace like Hans Sola with Christopher Walk, and we knew knew that that almost happened instead of Harrison Ford.

You can't do that.

What did I write you back?

What did I write you back?

White up to Luke.

What was it?

I said it was almost like, could you picture Willem Dafoe being Batman?

Because that was kind of Tim Burton's, he was toying around with that with Willem Dafoe instead of Michael Keaton.

Yeah, like that's the thing.

It's like, it's not that I think it would be better, but for me, when I saw that for Vincent Vega, the John Travolta role, that he had picked Gary Oldman

on this group of actors.

Because so I just want to go back to that time because if you remember

who he was back then like gary oldman had just played like lee harvey oswald in jfk um he had just done incredible work all over the place i just can't imagine him um

in that travolta role because it's so cemented uh he was in true romance obviously like so i you know there's reasons that travolta would go there But it's to me, I would love to just, I wish we could just see films with a different version of an actor like that.

It would have blown my mind.

Yeah, I think, I honestly think, and I know this is going to be blasphemy, and I love that, you know, I looked it up, like the three big hits John Travolta was rocking on before Pulp Fiction were look who's talking, look who's talking to, and look who's talking now.

I mean, he was red hot.

That's a trilogy.

Yeah, that's a trilogy right there.

And so, like, obviously, this changes the course of his career.

He gets it.

I think Michael, this might be crazy.

I think Michael Mattson would have done just as good of a job.

I can see that's who it was written for.

We know his relationship with Quentin Tarantino, and he went on to be in a lot of other roles with him moving forward.

He turned it down, apparently, my understanding, right?

He just didn't want to do it, I believe.

And so I think the role would have been essentially the same.

I can see Michael Mattson playing that role.

I don't want to take anything away from

John Travolta,

but I could see Matson playing it.

Now, to me,

I don't see the number one pick for Lance.

I don't see John Cusack playing that role that Eric Stoltz crushed.

Like, and I'm glad Eric got it.

I mean, to be in Back to the Future and then say, This stinks so bad, we're going to start over

and cut you out, and now it's going to become one of the greatest movies of all time.

He didn't need that to happen again.

I'm glad he got it.

But I don't, I want to ask you because, like, we're talking about who was hot.

Like,

looks and career.

John Cusack was on fire at that time.

Sure.

Like, could you see him playing that role, though?

Well, I guess I'm not disagreeing with you, but yes, I could because I kind of think he's got

this thing about him where it would kind of fit.

But to me, I mean, Pulp Fiction, the reason these tweets are going around that it's 30 years old.

It's its 30-year anniversary.

And I think for, you know,

how much older does it need to be where these roles are just cemented into our minds and into our hearts?

So

I can't, I can imagine it, but it would feel really

out of sync to not have it be Staltz because Staltz has a little bit of something special about him that,

you know, and I'm with you.

That would suck to, that would, like, it's, it's, it would suck to have been in on the lot for Back to the Future and then it's almost like a decade.

It just takes it.

Yeah, it's like a, it's like 85, 94.

It's like every decade I get hosed out of the best movie made in that entire decade.

Yeah, like I think one of his, if I'm not mistaken, he was the lead in mask and he like you could you didn't even know it was him.

You wouldn't even know what human it was.

So you know, it's good to have his actual face.

He did lots of stuff.

He got to work with Cher.

He did.

He did.

Well, anyways, all right.

I guess we're at the end of this.

It was an incredible football game, one that I know that when I think about why I, you know, joined the Legion of People to cover football, it was because of a game like a game tonight where I could tell that looking out on the streets, the masses were frozen in anticipation for what would happen next.

Yes, let's see.

Hey, and that's the site of the Super Bowl, baby.

That's where we're headed.

Super Bowl Sunday.

We are.

New Orleans.

We'll be there.

Undergalling.

We've spent a lot of time there.

Yes, much.

Yes, I have.

I've been in New Orleans a lot.

But listen, my last point about this game, because this is what I want to make Justin unhappy about.

There was one point brought up that I think is going to be an interesting one coming after this season when the next head coaching cycle starts.

Is Vance Joseph going to be in that rotation?

And Al Michaels made, in my opinion, a really, really great parallel.

He's like, is Vance Joseph Raheem Morris?

Like, you got an opportunity early.

You go back to being a DC.

You go back to, you know, cutting your teeth again and showing everybody how good of a coach you are, and you get another crack.

I know personally that Vij wants another crack as a head coach.

I also know the way it happened the first time in Denver, he was like

a figurehead.

He was like a fake president in a country run by the mob or the cartel.

Like he had no say in Denver when he was the head coach.

He made no decisions.

I think he'd like the crack at being a head coach again.

And I'm kind of curious if he'll be part of the conversation as well as his defense is playing because they're playing outstanding

with really no household talent at all.

I'm curious if his name finds his way into the head coaching circle because my understanding talking to some people around the league this week because after the Sala thing, and I think Dougie might be on the hot seat coming back if they lose, the seat might not be even hot.

It might just not even be on the airplane back from London.

If they lose that game, how many openings do we have?

Six, possibly seven?

Is Vance Joseph part of that conversation?

I'm interested.

I'm intrigued.

I've always wanted to sit in on one of these nine-hour coaching interviews because I think that he'd have a chance to explain why things weren't able to work.

There's an argument for him to make for himself.

And

same thing.

I think

Morris,

hey, our colleague, and I know that he, that's what he calls us, Bill Belichick, our colleague.

He refers to us to that all the time.

He does.

He flamed out as a defensive-minded coach early on with a franchise that had some ups and downs and found a second job and did quite well.

I'm not comparing the two of them, but I like the idea of a better head coach getting a second chance, you know?

Yeah, I'm all about second chance.

This league writes people off so quick, man.

We're talking about rookie quarterbacks.

They're done immediately after that first, like, you know, if you don't succeed right away, we're moving on.

Like, same thing with a lot of coaches.

The same guys get a lot of the same jobs.

And I'm curious if he can get himself back into that conversation after this kind of break because he's coaching really well.

He's got a great voice.

We've got great backers

or whatever.

Advance talks very, very deep.

He has kind of like

a voice that would belong in Paul Fiction, honestly.

Well, or he could be

a great radio man.

I just got a text from Justin saying, you are not going to get a second chance if you keep talking.

Well, Justin, you're not in control here, just to let you know.

We're in control of the show.

But we will close it out.

It's Thursday night football.

It's week seven, the beginning of a very important week.

We'll just keep spinning.

We're going to come back on Sunday night with our flagship Sunday night show.

We're certain to have you back on another day.

I'm going to be in Minnesota on Sunday, baby.

Lions Vice.

Is that where you're going?

Don't you know?

That's, I mean, you could call that the game of the the week.

That's why I'm going.

I went to the game of the week last week.

I wanted to go to the Beltway game.

I wanted to see Commanders, Ravens.

Now we got Vikings, Lions.

I love that this is happening.

We've got a man, you know, down on the turf bringing us incredible reporting.

We'll have you back soon.

Thank you to everyone.

And there's one last thing you got to do before you press stop on this.

You got to heat the call.

Yo, this is important, man.

My favorite Lululemon shorts, the ones you got me back in the day, I think they're pacebreakers, the ones with all the pockets.

Well, I just got back from vacation, and I think I left them in my hotel room.

And dude, I need to replace these shorts.

I wear them like every day with that Lulu hoodie you got me.

Could you send me the link to where you got them?

Thanks, bro.

Talk soon.

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