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Heat the call with Dan Hanses and Mark Sessler is on Underdog.

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So enjoy that.

Let's get to it.

The Heed the Call Podcast

needs some cash to get the Zeuser to the Oasis reunion.

I really do.

I could use some cash.

Dan Hansis here.

Heed the Call with Dan Hansis and Mark Sessler.

Mark Sessler is not here right now, but Mark Sessler is coming.

I'll explain.

Coming up in a bit, we're going to have our annual hot butt rankings with James Palmer and me and Mark with the side of Gravedigger.

But, Gravy, come on in a second.

Because of

some breaking news around wide receivers in the NFL, we had to scrap the initial open of the show.

Sessler's in transit somewhere in Los Angeles.

Sessler's always in transit somewhere in Los Angeles.

He is.

So I said, hey, bud, don't turn around.

We'll take care of the IUC news and we'll throw it over to the hot butts discussion.

So it's going to be you and me, Justin, for the first five minutes or so here.

Yes, we recorded an open, what, this is the third time?

Third time's a charm.

Third time's a charm.

Third time's a charm.

And I would say, just when you think the fact that we're recording the open of the show for the third time today,

in between the second opening taping and this one, I took my car to the car wash and I was in the middle of the car wash and I went to close the sunroof shade but instead trigger the opening of the sunroof while the car wash was going pouring into the car wearing the same shirt that I was earlier today when I taped the shirt a little damp why because the Zuzzer opened up the sunroof in a car wash that is that's a low moment of all time for me

I like the dedication to continuity, though.

Same shirt.

Let's keep it rolling.

Need it.

I got the black mizzen in Maine.

He's still hanging in there, but he is going to be taking his own wash in a moment.

Let's get to the news here, okay, before any more tragedy strikes and lightning strikes this program.

Because, yes, in our original taping, we talked at length about the holdout corner going on in the NFL.

Of course, CeeDee Lamb got paid, and there are people like Jamar Chase that are still waiting to get paid.

But it is Brandon Ayuk.

Not to mention Brandon Ayuk's teammate, Trent Williams.

He would love to get paid as well.

But Brandon Ayuk, this one was the one that was starting to really heat up on Wednesday.

The Niners cleared him medically, which meant he was going to begin accruing penalties and fines for not practicing with the team.

Opening day, of course, is just a week and a half away from Monday night against the Jets.

So it was just when it was starting to look like it was going to get ugly here between Ayuk and the Niners.

A deal gets done.

This first reported by Adam Schefter at ESBN, the 49ers signed Brandon Ayuk to a four-year, $120 million extension.

That's a contract when you tack on the existing year remaining on the deal.

It's a five-year deal

that will put Ayuk

in the territory he wanted to be, which is the highest paid wide receivers in football.

He has a...

average annual value on this contract of 30 million per season.

And if you look at the highest paid receivers in the league now on a per-year basis, this is also another tweet from Schefter, Justin.

It kind of makes sense.

The list makes sense.

And I would almost say to Jamar Chase,

I'll be your agent.

I'll take half of what your agent is asking for, and I'll just slot you in the middle of this group because you got Jefferson at $35 million per CeeDee Lamb, as I mentioned, who just signed his deal and ended his holdout with the Cowboys, $34 million.

A.J.

Brown, $32 million.

Amon Ross, St.

Brown of the Lions, $30 million.

Tyreek, $30 million.

Ayuk, $30 million.

Jalen Waddell, $28.25 million.

Devontae Adams, $28 28 million.

So Ayuk joins the big boy club

and he is, I don't know, I was going to say, Justin, he's ready to roll,

but he missed all of training camps.

So we'll see if he can knock the rust off in time to make an impact in weekend one against the Jets.

But don't count him out because this is a special wide receiver.

He gets one extra day to prep because it's the Monday night game.

I guess that's one little bright side of it all.

I think you said things were starting to get ugly.

I mean, things kind of got ugly on Wednesday between with what Kyle Shanahan said and what John Lynch especially said.

Like some point you got to play.

And now he will play.

So that whole saga is over.

It felt like the Niners never really wanted to trade him.

Like they may or may not have had deals in place with the Patriots or the Browns, definitely not the Steelers.

I think that would have happened.

But I think that, I mean, Dan and Rossini also tweeted, reported this, that they were willing to trade Brandon Ayuk if they could get a top-flight wide receiver to replace him.

So they didn't ever want to just do this for a draft pick, which we said, we talked about this a few weeks ago.

Like it wouldn't make no sense to trade him for a draft pick right now while your Super Bowl window is potentially closing after this season to get rid of one of your best offensive weapons.

And we saw how the Niners' offense falls apart if Christian McCaffrey's out of week or if Debo Samuel especially is out of week or, you know, you take Brandon Ayuk out of the mix.

I imagine a similar...

disastrous fate would strike this offense.

So why would you move him for a pick?

Apparently, none of these teams that were interested in Ayuk were willing to trade a top flight wide receiver.

I imagine the Steelers didn't want to give up George Pickens just to get Ayuk.

The Patriots, they don't have a top flight wide receiver to trade.

Would the Browns trade Amari Cooper?

Would the Niners consider him a top flight receiver?

So anyway, everyone ends up happy.

At the end of the day, Ayuk stays in San Francisco, and you just hope that he has enough time to get up to speed.

I mean, it's not like it's a new offense.

It's not like he has to build chemistry with a new quarterback.

So you'd imagine he will be all systems go on that Monday night game.

Yeah,

he should be fine.

You imagine he was working out and doing his own thing to be ready for this.

Yeah, I think what we heard in the Wednesday press conferences by John Lynch, the GM, and Kyle Shanahan, the head coach, was a certain level of exasperation and this idea that, okay, we kind of played ball with you throughout this summer.

There was a bit of a nebulous, I think it was a neck or a back

situation that they kind of play ball with and say, all right, we're not going to find you for missing camp.

And then at this point, or by midweek with the season right around the corner,

you could tell there was a level of frustration slash disappointment that he still wasn't back on the field.

So that ended up being a temporary situation.

And yeah, Jamar Chase, like I said, I imagine he's going to join this club as well.

And I think it might have even been our first show.

He'd the call.

We talked about Ayuk when this saga was, you know, in full flight this summer.

And the pop the hood numbers on Ayuk, he's so special because he is by far the most efficient superstar wide receiver in the league in terms of what he does per route,

his ability to shred you from anywhere on the field.

His yak is off the charts.

This is just a special, special player.

And if you're someone like me who's not totally sold on Brock Purdy, you know he needs Ayuk to make that machine in San Francisco go at its highest rate.

So we're going to see what happens with the Niners Monday night.

You imagine now Ayuk will be in the fold.

You got Debo, obviously, George Kittle.

Trent Williams now is the big question mark in San Francisco.

He is also in a contract stalemate, and he has made it clear he's very comfortable with missing games.

And he's accrued, I believe, over $4 million, Gravedigger, in fines now for missing training camp and the preseason.

So they're not out of the woods with this drama.

And I'll just say this,

Justin, that...

What a huge year this is for the Niners because Brock Purdy is up for his extension after this year.

You already have Nick Bosa under contract for huge numbers.

Trent Williams, unless we get some type of blockbuster trade and we have to tape this for a fourth time in the next five minutes.

Oh my God, get this show up.

He's going to be hugely expensive.

This is a team.

Christian McCaffrey just got a top-of-the-market running back deal.

This might be the last chance for this nucleus to go win a Super Bowl before they have to make some very tough decisions.

So go get to it.

Yeah, I've seen some speculation already that this may be Debo Samuels last year in San Francisco.

I mean, he just said.

The writing has to be on the wall.

I mean, when you look at the other commitments they have, a lot of teams can be nimble with the salary cap.

And I'll just say one other thing that the Niners, who don't get nearly the

criticism that, say, the Cowboys do, not that the Cowboys don't deserve it for some of their weird things, but yeah, they kind of maybe misplayed this IUK situation a little bit.

Nick Bosa last year or some similar ways it played out, and yet they end up paying more than if they just would have gotten a deal done before some of these other superstars came through.

So that that could end up.

Well, those things could end up.

Yeah.

Yeah, I did see some report out there that this was the original offer they made to Ayuk back in the spring, and that all this drama and all this holding out and all these trade requests and threats and everything, ultimately he ended up accepting what the Niners had offered him originally.

So if that's true, what a waste of time.

What are we even talking about?

We spend months on this crap.

And then

we took off the summer.

So

that's one way to put it that we took off the summer.

There is also a note

per Jordan Schultz said from a 49ers executive, quote, We believe his, Brandon Ayuk's best football is ahead of him.

He's only 26.

He's still learning the intricacies of the position.

This is an ascending player.

There's no reason why he can't have a similar career as a Devontae Adams, for example.

So they view him.

Remember Devontae Adams, slow start to his career and then became one of, if not the best route runners in the NFL when he finally had the full trust of Aaron Rodgers.

And I guess the Niners view Ayuk's career arc in a similar way.

If this isn't even the best version of him, they're paying, you know, a lot of times players get paid for contributions they made to the team, and then you hope they continue it.

It looks like they're paying him for contributions they hope he'll continue to get better at making.

And that would not surprise me.

I think it's a smart, it's a smart contract.

And as much as I love Debo Samuel, he's one of my favorite players of the last five years.

Who do I think is going to be the more impactful long-term player if they end up having to choose between these two great wideouts?

I believe Ayuk is the right play.

Okay, with that said,

you know, with that said, we move on.

And like I said, let's now head to the second part of this podcast, the main part of the podcast, and that is me, the Sess Dog.

Don't be alarmed now when Mark's all of a sudden next to me again in the split screen, me, Sess Dog, and then the great James Palmer.

And we talk about all 32 head coaching positions and the level of heat associated with them.

Let's go.

Holy God.

It is my honor to introduce,

return to the show,

the wickedly talented.

Wickedly talented.

James Palmer.

What's up, buddy?

Guys, the virtual is nice.

The In the Flesh was real nice.

Very nice.

Really enjoyed hanging earlier this week.

It was something.

I mean,

Dan and I exchanged a phone call and multiple text messages about what we were going to wear.

So that's kind of where this was at on Monday night.

I know

JP is, you know, sartorially, he's a man who cares how he looks.

So I said, I just want to make sure this guy doesn't show up at Boa, this beautiful steakhouse we went to in like a suit jacket or anything like that.

But no, he was casual but stylish, as I knew he he would be.

I want to read something, by the way, and congratulations.

Wait a minute.

Hold on.

Hold on one minute here.

You were not concerned at all with what I might show up in?

I was like, I could have put it this way.

I could have chosen what you were going to show up in blindly.

We have now reached the Homer-Simpson zone with the SESDOG, where we know it's going to be probably a floral button-down long-sleeve shirt and then Levi on top.

And there's going to be dark jeans and black boots.

That's it.

That's the outfit.

Consistent.

Consistent.

So I didn't want to bother you because I knew no matter what the occasion was, we could have been going to

the King of England's coronation and you are wearing Levi

and Docs.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

All right, point made.

Point made.

Let's hit the missive music here because a big press release went out from Underdog Fantasy

and the hiring of James Palmer to, quote, lead the company's football coverage this year, serving as the company's, quote, first sports reporter.

Journalism degree, class of 02, Northeastern.

Hello.

Anyway, here is a quote from James Palmer himself.

Underdog is building one of the leaders in sports media and focuses on a thoughtful and fan-centric approach.

James always says fan-centric.

Every conversation.

I look forward to bringing fans the latest news through in-depth storytelling, reporting, and analysis across Underdog Programming.

That includes right here, this is Underdog Programming, James.

So please bring the in-depth storytelling starting with our dinner on Monday night.

Actually, no, hold that because we're going to have our conversation first, but that's when I need that in-depth storytelling to arrive.

Done.

Done.

Consider it done.

First, we're going to talk about James.

Did you write that quote?

Did you write that quote?

Or did like a PR person swoop in and like assist you?

No, it was elegantly done, and so I I don't doubt that you did.

I just I'm asking you.

I heard several press releases when I was an intern for the Columbus Destroyers competing against Jay Gruden in the Arena Football League, I believe.

Yes.

Our massive PR department of me,

a college intern for the Columbus Destroyers.

I have a lot of press release experience, guys.

So, yes, we all work together, and that's awesome.

And today we're going to talk.

This is a tradition on our program, James.

I used to write a column about it every year to the consternation of some shadowy league figures.

Just too dangerous for them to handle.

And now

the tradition continues.

They are, some people call it the hot seat.

rankings.

I like to call it the hot butt rankings.

I want to talk about the head coaches who are in the most danger.

Who's the most safe?

Conversely, in the NFL as we enter the 2024 season.

And just as I always do, just to set the stage, James, and you know this better than anyone, as someone who's, I'm sure, been outside countless team facilities talking about the, you know, the death rattle of various regimes over the years.

Eight NFL coaches were fired or left their teams during or after the 2023 season.

And if that sounds like a lot,

that's 25% of the coaches.

It is a lot, but it's also normal.

There's just a churn

in these organizations.

And

that turnover rate, while it seems extreme, that's just how the business is, right, JP?

Oh, it is.

It is.

Listen,

and it's funny.

It's even funnier, Dan, when you think about like there's a couple of stalwarts there that just don't ever go anywhere.

So just eliminate like those four teams or five teams, whatever it is, that aren't really in the market to be changing coaches at all.

And that makes it even more

consistently the same teams that are going through this on a regular basis.

And I just find it kind of hilarious because the teams that aren't are at such an advantage.

And the other teams are trying to search for a continuity and a consistency that they're

seeing from the other teams.

And when they keep changing, they just keep losing that and never getting any closer to it, which is kind of the ironic part of the constant change as opposed to the teams that never make a change.

And the continuity is a massive, massive advantage.

I think Jordan, our colleague here at Heath the Call, wrote an incredible deep dive on the Rams draft process this year, and it gave you a greater idea into when you blow up the operation coach GM that can blow up the scouting department.

It's verbiage change, it's how the whole process behind the scene changes, and that is chaotic.

And so, when you think about like the teams that are rebooting the machine every three years or so, including my favorite team, seems to do,

there's a reason why these teams sometimes stay bad.

The stability is so important.

And with that said, interesting note as we get into the list here,

I have a

12 coaches, and we're going to get to it that I feel that are very safe.

I'll even go as far as saying stone cold safe.

Usually on the opposite end of the spectrum, there's always one guy.

Sometimes two, but usually one guy that seems like he's doomed.

I call that tier the we know, they know, he knows that he's done.

Adam Gace was a guy once upon a time.

As it goes on and on, this year, I don't, and I'm happy to talk about it if you guys disagree.

I don't see someone that is at that level where it feels like there's no chance to escape the acts.

So we'll get to that as we get lower down the house.

Okay, hold that thought.

Stone Cold Safe, though.

We'll start here.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

And stop me.

Literally just say, shut up.

If there's someone that you disagree

and believe should not be viewed as Stone Cold Safe.

Okay.

I have him in Otter too, by the way.

but we don't have to quibble about the otter, just the tier.

Kansas City's Andy Reid.

Shut up.

No, sorry.

I was just practicing.

I don't know where you were starting already.

Okay, go ahead.

San Francisco's Kyle Shanahan.

Los Angeles Rams, Sean McVay.

Detroit's Dan Campbell.

Houston's D'Amico Ryans.

Los Angeles Chargers, Jim Harbaugh.

Pittsburgh's Mike Tomlin.

Green Bay's Matt LaFleur.

Baltimore's John Harbaugh.

Minnesota's Kevin O'Connell.

Cincinnati's Zach Taylor.

Denver's Sean Payton.

In that order, I believe all those men are safe.

Stone cold.

Perhaps if I say they're stone cold safe, maybe I shouldn't be putting them in order because they're all stone cold safe.

Do you guys agree, disagree?

That was not in an order, right?

That was absolutely in my order, yes.

Tell me what doesn't pass the sniff.

I've got one where I think there's two names stand out quickly.

Like,

if

Denver, and I know James, you'll want to wait on this, if Denver turned into an absolute cesspool and Sean Payton lost his desire to do this mixed with a lot of in-house stuff, maybe, but I think he's safe.

But the one name that for years, and it came from the own fan base, and it makes me think of Damashek, was like Mike Tomlin used to get on a little warm, depending what happened.

But I think you are right about your defector in ownership, and Tomlin's probably going to come out of this season with another winning record no matter what happens at quarterback.

So I I agree with your list, you know, spiritually.

Okay.

Spiritually.

How about you?

How about you, JP?

If it's in order, KO's got to be way higher on that list.

I'm back in stone cold safety.

I mean, Kevin O'Connell's got to be near that top group of names you listed, in all honesty.

I'm going to do it right now.

How about this?

Collaborative.

I'm moving him up.

Move him up.

Am I moving him up above D'Amico Ryan's or is he right in that club?

I put him right in that club.

Okay.

Right in there.

Like

the organizations that are like, that have, that have searched for coaches, and I know, you know, that's been a million in Minnesota, but it's like we know this is the guy

for now and the future.

Like those two are in the same group.

With Sean, I would say he has so much power in the building

in Denver.

It's kind of an interesting dynamic, but at the same time, and this was funny, this was told to me by an offensive coordinator in the league, not with the Broncos.

You're paying this guy $20 million a year.

This Bo Nicks guy better be the right pick and better be developed very quickly because we got got an expensive developer at the quarterback position, more expensive than anybody else.

This better work.

And if it doesn't, it falls directly on your shoulders.

So I do think the Walton Penner group is new to this, but I do think they have a lot of faith in Sean.

I don't think...

I know nobody in the building would admit this, but I don't think the expectations are like through the roof with wins this year.

It's a cultural change this year.

So I don't think this is something with this year.

I would say...

Can I just say one thing while we're on Denver before we move off it?

I factored all that in, that he's early in his contract, Peyton, that he's getting paid a ton of money.

That last year was kind of a

mulligan, maybe isn't the word, but like you knew the Wilson thing was going to make that a messy transition year.

I would think at the very least, he gets two years to develop a first-round pick quarterback before they start having any conversation that Sean Payton is the guy that's got to go.

So that's why I think he's still in this tier.

I mean, that's accurate.

And with everything that was wrong last year with the team he inherited, they still were like, they had a meaningful football game on Christmas Eve, like for playoff chances so that I mean that that shows you what he was working with last year and that wasn't entirely his group the guy that I would say Dan I like your

go ahead I like your process Dan I I respect it immensely I just I think that sometimes with some of these coaches who have um egos the size of like Europa the like the moon devolving around Saturn or whatever like they you just never know little weird things can happen if you were just unhappy but I'm I'm with you like if you look at all the elements they're not you know they have to pay Sean Payton if they fire him anyway so I let me just say before we throw back to James, because that's the second time you've brought it up now, Mark.

How these guys feel existentially or whatever is not what I was factoring for any of this.

So I'm not thinking this Sean Payton.

You're not doing like a Sean McVay, I'm going to walk away thing.

You're doing a mystery.

This is about my butts.

Yes.

Yes.

All right, James, back to you.

One last thing on Denver, I would say this.

I don't think they care about paying Sean Payton's foul either.

They're the richest ownership group by a long shot in the NFL.

They're also not even going to even, to my understanding, even entertain the idea of the new rule where you can sell 10%

out.

They're not even thinking about that.

It's not even any money they need.

The one name that kind of is interesting to me is Zach Taylor.

There's pretty high expectations in Cincinnati.

And they have,

in most people's opinion, the second best quarterback in football.

I think they need to win.

And things are not super awesome.

That's a really journey, you know, with the press release and the journalism and the super awesome.

That doesn't all really go together all that well.

But it's, it's a little shaky heading into the season, guys.

It's a little shaky heading into the season with what's going on there.

We're practicing.

We're not practicing.

We're showing up late in street clothes.

We're not, you know, it's, I think, something needs to happen.

But also, that is an organization

where it's on Zach Taylor's side, where we are the opposite of the Broncos and we don't like to spend the monies.

And we're not going to spend the monies on multiple coaches.

And if someone could remind me, the previous head coach, I believe he was there when the Titanic was still afloat.

I mean, so they don't like to change coaches there.

No.

Well, Marvin Lewis is an idiot.

That's not nice, Mark.

All right.

So I feel like overall, and I hear what you're saying, do we want to,

what I'm going to do here,

I'm going to drop Zach to the bottom of that list.

I would do that because we still do have to remember, like, he's one of the few people that has the confidence to go into Arrowhead and beat Patrick Mahomes and Andy Reid.

Like, because he's done it.

And so.

All right.

Yeah.

Tier two.

That keeps him in the group.

All right, good.

So then I feel like I did pretty well because nobody said like this guy shouldn't be in that group.

The next group is 10 names, okay?

And these names,

in the past years of this exercise, yeah, there can be a surprise out of this group sometimes, but usually this group is pretty safe as well.

I'll call this category likely bulletproof, but I'd put on a vest just in case.

10 names in order.

Here we go.

Cleveland's Kevin Stefanski, who's a 17-time coach of the year winner.

So I feel like maybe even deserves to be higher, but I don't know.

It's a weird world in Cleveland.

That's all I'm going to say.

Atlanta's Raheem Morris.

Indianapolis is Shane Steichen.

Miami's Mike McDaniel.

Tennessee's Brian Callahan.

Washington's Dan Quinn.

New England's Gerard Mayo.

Carolina's Dave Canalis.

Seattle's Mike McDonald.

Tampa Bay's Todd Bowles.

Now, fans of the show might notice, usually I put rookies to the side, but I now rookie head coaches or first-year head coaches to the side.

But I know, understand, we live in a different landscape

than perhaps I originally looked.

Maybe a more, now I'm a little more grizzled and cynical about the world and understand that not all organizations are fair to coaches in their first year, and sometimes guys get fired.

So you see some first-name coaches in that list, many of them, in fact, in fact, all of them probably.

Your thoughts?

I'll go first, Mark.

Yep.

I think I would almost throw Shane Steichen in that top group.

That's how good of a coach Shane Steichen is.

They were a dropped screen pass away from making the postseason with Gardner Minshew last year.

That was a bad drop.

And here's the other part that you could put another feather in Shane's cap.

It's a great play call.

It's a really good play call.

And they just like, they had a piece together secondary.

It wasn't like a, they didn't wow you at the skill positions at all.

And they put up like, I want to say, I don't know, I was off the top of my head and I didn't even know we were going to talk about chain second, like sixth in like points or something like that, or top 10 in points like per game.

If that's completely insane, that might have been like a first half of the year type of deal.

But they were like, they couldn't score the year before.

And so,

and then the other part that makes me want to put him up there is, look at what happened to Philly after he left with essentially the exact same team.

Yeah.

Mark, how about this?

I'll throw this out there, Sess Dog.

Yeah.

One another factor I have when talking about this is ownership and stability and like who's running the show.

And Jim Merce is entertaining and

he's friends with John Mellenkamp and all that stuff's cool.

Is it John Mellencamp now or is it John Cougar or John Cougar Mellenkamp?

Which one does he go by?

Cougar's out, man.

Cougar's been out for years.

I don't know.

I could always switch back.

I like the friendship dates back to the Cougar era.

And by by the way, Gravedigger got all fired up because he hates the cults.

So I saw him gesturing off-screen, and then he texted me.

Do you want to jump in, Gravedigger, and share that take or fact or correction?

They were 11th in points per game last year, which is pretty impressive with Gardner Minshew.

But you don't want people to think they were top 10.

It bothers me.

You want to make sure they were out of top 10.

Okay.

Anyway,

my point being that Ursay is a volatile guy.

He's a guy that's had health problems.

He's older.

And if things went sideways, could he make a potentially rash decision?

Probably the only reason I don't have him, Steichen, in the top tier, but I could put him at the top of the second.

Is that fair?

Okay.

I think this is a different situation because I see what James sees.

And, you know, we

lobbied last year for the Colts as this rugged team on defense with a really special offensive coach, and I see it in Steichen.

And if you're going to give these other coaches a mulligan for not having their quarterback of the future in year one, well, you've got to look at what's happening in Indianapolis.

This is sort of starting with the plan again now.

But I thought he showed us so much a year ago.

And Ursae is, yeah, he's volatile, but,

you know, they've been loyal,

like arguably overly loyal to some coaches in the past, too.

And I think the GM factor's in there as well.

I just think he's flat out not going to disappoint.

I will bring up, I think it's interesting that you

put Stefanski in this tier.

And I'm with you.

Like, I had him in my own little list under alone, under Disturbance in the Force, just because, and I know you don't know what that means, Dan, but like

it's just a team

of

it.

Exactly, it is from that franchise.

And it's like, Kevin Stefansky, it's almost like it doesn't matter what he's done.

If you're a Browns fan or a supporter or watcher of the Browns that can't release from the early tenure of Haslam, I do look at that organization now.

They just gave him a big contract extension along with Andrew Berry.

And I think behind the scenes, Kevin Stefansky has had to say yes to ownership on a number of large items that he may not have chosen himself.

And so, and you don't hear a lot of infighting.

I mean, Brown's coaching staffs, which were never paired with the GM, it was always like this overlap of like the old guy and the new guy and switching coordinators.

It's been consistent.

They've been to the playoffs twice.

Not a playoff run, but what he did last year shows, I think there are a couple coaches that's like, what can you do when chaos erupts, when darkness overcomes?

It's like he would have had every excuse with five or six quarterbacks for them to flatline, and the opposite happened.

He kept that team together, and you don't hear a lot of negative, terrible whispers coming out of that organization, which is new under Haslam's tenure.

So I think he's pretty safe, barring like...

him or someone else turning that whole if the whole thing just went super negative around the quarterback i tend to think that they've found their guy for a while ken though right and that's the reason why i don't have him for a guy that's a reigning coach of the year he should be in the first tier.

But I'm just saying, what if the scenario, and yeah, maybe things have been better under Haslam in this regime, but he still haslam and has been a pretty good job.

He could be, but then you're talking about a process, like your process of how you did this.

Like, that's sort of, I'm with you.

They've got to be able to do that.

What I'm saying is, if that quarterback contract is what I think makes me scared, that if they get to a situation where after this year, Watson is two more years on the deal, and they could make the decision, given the financial investment, that maybe Stefanski is the problem here.

Maybe Watson wins a power struggle.

I don't know.

But maybe I'm overthinking it, but I just think because of the volatility within that organization around that contract, that that could make him a little bit vulnerable.

Yeah.

But one quick counterpoint.

Then you've got to convince, and you'd want a name coach with this roster.

You'd want to convince another coach to come in and inherit that Watson contract and that situation.

So, again, I think Stefanski is going to be.

Well, I would say this, Mark.

You don't have to do a whole lot of convincing for people to take a position that's one of 32 on the planet.

Like, there's going to be somebody that's going to be able to get it.

Well, I get that, but it's not a great situation.

Yeah, well, there's a variety of things that make it that.

And I think Dan is right with

this year included, three years and $138 million guaranteed at the quarterback spot for a guy that has played, what, 12 games with 14 touchdowns and nine picks.

That's not great.

I will give you some positivity because I talked to some people in Cleveland yesterday.

Deshaun's kind of found his groove the last two weeks.

That gives them a little bit of comfort going into the season because

that wasn't the case with this new system with Ken Dorsey at the start of training camp.

So hopefully they get the quarterback play that they paid for.

But they also know it's going to be kind of rough this year because it's new for everybody.

So they're expecting some rough patches.

I do want to, for Grave Derrick's sake, to go back to the Colts real quick.

You know what they were in scoring the year before Steichen got there?

What?

Second to to last with only the Broncos under

what was his name again?

Who was the head coach?

I think he might be working over there in Jersey now, as I recall.

Yeah, Nathaniel Hackett was the coach.

The Colts scored 17 points a game the year before Shane Steichen got there.

That's pretty brutal.

All right.

Yes, Mr.

Are you now going to say something negative again about do we have to move on from the Colts?

If so, that's fine.

I just have a question.

This is like a legit question about the Colts.

Like the Chris Ballard stuff, I feel like this is a hot butt rankings for coaches, but if we were putting Chris Ballard in this convo, I wonder where he would fall, especially with his comments earlier.

Was it today or last night about if it gets me fired, so be it, about his process.

And if they did move on from Ballard, would that be a situation where it's like, we want a clean break and bring in a new pairing of head coach GM or would

stick around and sort of get the picks?

Steichen would stick around.

Yeah, I think you'd repair in a sense, because, I mean, what were the number of the last two draft classes that they've like up and released over the last year or so?

Like, it's a lot of picks have gone out the door that Chris Ballard has had.

So I think Steichen would stay, and they'd try to repair it in some capacity.

That'd be my opinion.

I'm going to make one adjustment as we spin forward.

I'm moving Mike McDaniel up to third on this list behind Steichen and Stefanski.

I think Mike McDaniel, despite the struggles late in the season,

it feels like they like him a lot there and he's good for that franchise and the offense, obviously, statistically, ends in a good place.

I still think it's an important year for him, obviously, to show continued progress.

But I feel McDaniel is very safe.

You guys on the same page there?

Oh, yeah.

Okay, good.

They've also been littered with injuries by the end of the seasons.

I mean, I did that game,

was it the the third coldest game ever at Arrowhead?

They like limped into that game in the postseason.

I mean, there's just nobody healthy.

That's been an issue.

That doesn't fall on Mike McDaniel, I don't think, at all.

And then I have, you know, amongst the first-year head coaches, Gerard Mayo, who a little bit of news obviously came out today officially.

It will be Jake Brisket, not Drake May, starting the season for the Patriots.

Here's a little sound from Wednesday night or the Wednesday's press conference where Mayo, who's, you know,

he's had some tough press conferences so far in his run with the Pats.

He had to dance around his reasoning for not sharing with the media yesterday.

And then here was his kind of thinking behind the decision that he eventually made official a day later.

I'm sure they all have an opinion on who they think should be the starting quarterback, but I don't think I have to explain it to anyone else.

It's my decision.

And look, if it doesn't work, blame me.

Blame me.

Coach, what do you do?

Sorry, I would say one thing.

I think it's important to remember: what's good for the team today may not be good for the team

weeks down the line.

And so I think the

you know, the challenge is you want to win every single game now,

but also we're trying to build something special here in New England.

So that to me was, you know, that was a challenge.

Just a reminder of, you know, they come off a head coach, Mark, who had done probably 20,000 press conferences in Belichick in that chair.

And Mayo's

learning on the job.

He's a good job, man.

Come on.

He didn't sit down.

Yeah, and

that's a good point.

And he caught himself almost there.

He was like, if it doesn't work, blame me.

And he saw the headline in real time.

And then he's like, let me just add one more thing to try to massage it.

It's a new world in New England.

Well, yeah, and I think if you've got the ego of the crafts, and the last time James was here, we touched on that subject that

no matter what happens like if they ever went one and done with this coach it just looks like they made a mistake by moving on from Belichick here's where I think that what mayo may be talking about in terms of like what might not look good a couple weeks ago or down from down the road versus now is they open in Cincinnati they host the Seahawks That's going to be revived defense.

The Jets defense, the 49ers, the Dolphins, and the Texans to open the first six weeks of the campaign.

that breathes and sounds to me like 0-6 or 1-5 in a quarterback change.

Because if you look at their schedule, there isn't like that clear week where you just shift to the rookie.

There just isn't.

It's like at some point, Brissette's going to be

thrown to the Wolves, and you've just got to bring him in.

So I think Mayo can sense, if he's got any idea of what the roster looks like, and he certainly does, that chaos is ahead.

And I think he's probably already trying to figure out how to verbalize that to the public.

I'm just picturing, Mark, like what it would be like to be a rookie quarterback and in your debut, you face Lou Annarimo

with extra time to prepare.

Like, I just don't, I would feel awful for any young quarterback that that's their first NFL start with one of the best defensive minds in the game.

And I was actually going to, you know, I went through and looked at that list.

I mean, you don't want to do that.

The other part of it is you can't go the opposite way.

You can't start Drake May and go to Jacoby Brissette.

Like,

you can't do it that way.

And I also think what could come into play here is a Robert Kraft Gerard Mayo meeting sometime towards the end of October, early November that says, we've got a lot of empty butts in these seats here in Foxborough.

I think it's time to play the kid.

This is a distance from Boston here.

Let's throw

it the kid in here.

The Tweeter Center.

What a ride from downtown Boston.

It's a way slow down here.

Yeah, but I mean,

I totally don't think he's in jeopardy by any stretch at all, considering when you know you have arguably the worst roster in football.

This is a rebuild in a sense.

And that is not Gerard Mayo's fault by any stretch.

All right, let's now move into

more dangerous territory.

Okay, this would be, I have this one

labeled, you can imagine a little sit-down

between ownership or the GM and the head coach.

And

this quote is uttered.

privately.

We need to show progress.

Okay, so take that how you will.

That means, and progress means different things to different teams, right?

So here's the list for that.

Buffalo's Sean McDermott.

Chicago's Matt Eberflues.

Las Vegas's Antonio Pierce.

Jacksonville's Doug Peterson.

New York Giants, Brian Dayball.

Arizona's Jonathan Gannon.

And even as I'm saying this in real time, maybe I want to move up Pierce, and I apologize for this.

I'm going to move up Pierce to the higher category.

Really?

Oh, my.

Did I have it right?

All right.

Tell me why he should be different than the other first-year head coaches.

I know he was an interim guy last year, but he was successful when he was.

Yeah,

I just feel like when we were talking about ownership earlier, this is different ownership probably than some of these other places.

And if there's

a thought process at the end of this year that you're like, no, Dak Dak Prescott's available.

We're going to go get Dak in, I almost said Oakland, in Las Vegas.

Then we're going to start anew with this new quarterback, maybe.

And we bring in an offensive-minded head coach and we change things up.

I could just see that because I don't know how well it's going to go in Vegas.

I wouldn't move him out of this group.

Thank you for that.

I needed that.

Mark, what do you think about that?

Well, or I'm going to do what my father did and try to hire Bill Belichick.

That's the other part.

I would say that Bill Belichick, and we haven't really mentioned him enough outside of Mark just kind of saying with Gerard Mayo, you wouldn't just go one and done.

And it also would say, once again, you shouldn't have moved on from Bill Belichick.

And also that Bill Belichick doesn't sit down during his press conferences.

We got that to.

He stands.

We told him that.

That was a market.

Standard.

Always standing.

Always standing.

We looked down on all of us while we were in that room.

It was a riser and then a podium and then he was standing and then we were all

for some reason.

We were all in like those chairs that have a desk attached to them that you can fall out of.

We were all in that.

No.

The Bill Belichick thing plays a big part in this because there's a handful of teams that would do it.

That's one of them.

I know another two we're going to get to because we haven't heard their names yet.

I would put the Giants maybe on that list, potentially.

Yeah, I would throw that as kind of another little wrinkle.

I think Dougie P is a little safer than people think.

last year was obviously extremely disappointing because you thought that they had the previous season had ended, obviously.

They kind of limped to get to the playoffs.

Again, I was there.

There you go.

Have the greatest playoff comeback since Frank Reich, obviously,

in that wild card round.

So they get to the divisional playoffs, and then last year was supposed to be that next step, and it was anything but.

So that just feels like to me, if they took another step backwards or stayed on the same plane, that ownership there, and again, the cons are an interesting ownership group,

might do something.

I don't know, maybe the Belichick of it all is hanging over that too.

Although, like, not to jump around here, but Belichick, like, nobody wanted Belichick last year, is now all of a sudden, people are going to change their feelings on Bill Belichick.

I don't know.

Like, he's our colleague.

You know, I want Bill to work with us forever.

To be fair, nobody hire him.

Yeah, I do think after what happened, and I covered a lot of it down in Jacksonville with Urban Meyer, and that was the like the North star that Shad Khan was searching for and he had wanted him for so long, and it went so terribly wrong, like just beyond recognition, that I think the like, I don't want to go through another coaching search is kind of in his head a little bit.

And I think Doug's a good coach.

I know some people would put him, and I'm curious if this was part of your thinking, Dan, that like you often times when somebody moves on from one of their coordinators, like he fires his DC, like is that a sign of things things to come like usually that's something that that occurs prior to that this this mainly and i could say the the one thing this falls on is he was brought in to take trevor lawrence to another level and trevor lawrence hasn't gone to that level yet um and i think we all remember the draft process prospect that he was and just the mistakes that that kind of still happened protecting the football i think they thought a lot of those would be changed by doug peterson immediately um but i would also say lawrence has been hurt for a lot of these games he's battled injuries like crazy.

I think it could take a little time for Doug to continue to work with him.

There are plenty of people I've talked to around the league that still think, and this is crazy with Houston being in the division, that they can still win the division this year.

That's how high some people are on the Jags.

So I don't know if he's entirely all that much in danger.

I would say the cons do not have to babysit Doug Peterson previous to some other coaches they've had.

And like, he is, he can handle his own work.

And like, I think you're right, Lawrence, like, if if we're going to look at the way he ended two seasons ago when he was one of the best quarterbacks in the league through various metrics, last year he was battered.

And it told me about who he was as a quarterback and someone that wasn't going to take the bench if he could help it.

And, like, fought through a lot of injuries.

And, like, that factors into the lack of progress.

Like, this is just a super critical year for Peterson to show proof of concept.

I think they like the Mara's really like Brian Dable, but after last year, as bad as last year was, I think he deserves to be where he is.

Jonathan Gannon's one I want to run by you guys because I had him kind of as a tweener for me, but I could see him being a tweener on either side of this tier, depending on your perspective, because obviously he takes over for, takes the job last year.

Kyler's not even on the field until midway through the season during the knee recovery,

and they did show signs of progress as that season played on.

But again, I factor these things in.

Just like you said, James, like I factor in, if you get rid of your coordinators, that is the move that's like, okay, if this next thing doesn't work, you're gone.

With the Cardinals, I know they've shown more stability with Osenfort there, but I don't, I still don't trust ownership there to be able to have a sound,

be of sound mind and patience if this year doesn't go in a positive direction.

So that's why I have Gannon kind of near the bottom of this list.

Do you guys agree or disagree?

I think with Gannon, like my concern for him a little bit is that Drew Petsing is one of these guys that I think is going to get head coaching interviews if they show a lot of promise.

Like their offense threw a lot of numbers.

Like one Kyle, once Kyler came back, just were a vastly different operation.

I thought Gannon, who a year ago was getting made fun of on social media for various clunky social media, like little venues and vignettes they put together about him, did a really good job.

Are you talking about our show?

Well, I mean, we pointed to it, but I don't think, I think it was just kind of like we didn't even know who he was.

He was one of these guys that gets, you know fleeced by the public before he gets to do his job

he reminds me of Iberflues a little bit because here's the here's a guy coming in with a defensive you know minded idea of where he wants to take the team he doesn't have the parts like Iberflues didn't either so it's like we don't even know what his defense looks like with a lot of the players they don't have right now so how much patient is there I'm glad it's this new GM versus the last one I think some a lot of chaos occurred around that um the ownership is a little bit of a question mark but I don't know if I don't know what you're telling anyone if you part from Jonathan Gannon after this season.

I mean, like, how long do you give anyone?

I know it's, you know, there's no patience, but Gannon doesn't have the pieces to do what he said he could do yet.

And

I'll be quick.

I'll be quick on JG.

I would say if you talk to teams that played against the Cardinals last year, they'll tell you like they gave them fits, even if they didn't win.

Like those dudes played their asses off for Jonathan Gannon.

To me,

that tells me that maybe the vignettes weren't hitting in the social world.

We swing and miss a lot in this social world, but apparently they hit in the locker room because those guys played their tails off for them.

I think that's part of it.

And I like what they've built

between

general manager and head coach, honestly.

And they've gone for picks that are organizational changing picks.

They may not be like the sexiest thing in the world, but like you get the left tackle that's a can't miss in the previous draft.

You get the wide receiver that's a can't miss in this draft.

And you just kind of start building it kind kind of together.

I think they have a tight end that's going to, you know, surprise a lot of people in Trey McBride.

I do think they're going to be

competitive to an extent to where like you go, well, look at how we're losing these games.

I don't think we move on from this head coach.

Is Eberflues in this group?

Did you already put him on this group?

He is.

So he's in the middle of this group.

I would put Gannon above Eberflues.

That's so funny that you say that, James.

And I'm glad we talk about this because I had him at the bottom of the list and I decided to move him way up near the top, right above Eberflues, and right behind at the top of the tier, Sean McDermott.

So, we shouldn't move on without talking about McDermott because who is not like the others on this list?

McDermott is a head coach that is regularly winning AFC East titles, who has made runs in the playoffs and won playoff games.

But I do just get the sense that if they have another type of season that ends in bitter disappointment, at what point does a bigger, broader change come organizationally where they say we've got to figure out a different way to go about that?

You think that's fair, James?

Well,

I look at how they go into this season, and I look at what's happened in the previous seasons, and you want to ask, like, as ownership, when we have a really good relationship, by the way, and I just brought that up in Arizona between Brandon Bean and Sean McDermott, who have worked together for a really long time and have a pretty good thing going, in a sense.

But there's the past first we'll look at and go,

I was at the game standing on the sideline, right there on the 20, on the Chief sideline where

Josh Allen goes and throws a touchdown pass with 12 seconds or 13 seconds to go in the postseason.

And you go, well, they just won the game for us.

Here we go, Sean McDermott.

And then that, you know, you give that up after that.

Does that fall on the coaching staff?

That that's one of the things you look back on and go, how did we give up that return

drive from Patrick Mahomes?

And those are to the end zone.

And that's what I'm saying.

Those are the things that you go, well, look at what we screwed up here

in in the past.

And then when you get towards where they're at now, they're dealing in a whole new world,

which is the massive quarterback contract world and how it impacts the rest of your roster and how you coach the rest of your roster.

Because

I'm not sure.

I thought Mark got a call for playing receiver for them this year on the outside.

They are so thin.

That's true.

And what they are going to do offensively, specifically at that position, like.

Obviously, a lot of this falls on Sean McDermott not getting over the hump, but this is the similar situation where you go, okay, but if we move on, what are our options?

And if we move on, is it going to be immediately better?

That's the troubling part you have when you're just looking at getting rid of a coach that's right there on the precipice.

All right.

Yeah.

And do you want to take like Josh Allen's career?

And at that point, you probably have a new general manager restart all of that.

I mean, the one thing about Sean McDermott, which I is

kind of in his favor, was like, it was last season where like the flaming tell-all about what was going on in that organization was released midstream, and they kind of came, he coached them out of that.

He coached himself out of that to some degree.

Yeah, and I mean, so it's like it almost like last year is when the house could have fallen down.

But I don't, I don't, they're in a quiet, I wouldn't call it a rebuild, but a re-tinkering

in parts of the roster.

Do you now take Josh Allen's career and start over with a new coach?

They're winning

multiple double-digit games a year.

It's like, you've got to find someone better to do that.

And I don't know who that is.

Exactly.

Question for you, Dan.

Do you think it's a feather in Sean McDermott's cap to recognize what was happening offensively and make the switch at OC and you look at what ended up happening the second half of the year with them offensively?

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't necessarily make a change unless things really went sideways.

I think he's a guy that should get a chance to ride with this team until the wheels fall off because he's shown a lot and been able to build a winner with different levels of roster.

I'm just more concerned about whether this roster is good enough to get better from last year and then what

the organizationally, what decisions they make as a result if this thing ends with nine and eight.

You know,

I would say just get make the roster better, but they might go in a different direction.

The final category here,

I'm going to let Whoopi Goldberg in the 1990 hit Ghost do the talking for this category title.

Molly,

you in danger, girl.

All right.

I was really hoping when you said whoopie Goldberg, I was like, this is going to be from Sister Act 2.

This is going to be from Sister Act 2.

This is going to be from Sister Act 2, but it wasn't.

No, Ghost, great film.

Rest in peace, Patrick Swayze.

New Orleans, Dennis Allen.

New York Jets,

Robert Sala.

Philadelphia's Nick Siriani

and Dallas's Mike McCarthy.

And I will say that these are the four hottest butts in the NFL, not physically attractive butts, hottest butts, although

Zaddie's got a butt.

Because I don't think there's anyone that feels like they almost have no chance, which is a hopeless feeling both for that coach and for the fan base.

And I imagine for the team.

I don't see any of those guys in that category there.

But I think in all four cases, making the playoffs is a must, which is not easy to do.

And in the case of McCarthy and perhaps Siriani, we're talking about you might need to make a deep run in the playoffs to convince ownership that you are the guy for the long term.

So Alan Sala, Siriani, McCarthy, the four hottest butts.

I have them in that order.

Agree, disagree.

Mark.

I like the order.

It's, you know, Mike McCarthy, it's almost like he's in a tough spot.

It reminds me to some degree of McDermott because it's been a shaky offseason.

You can't look at that roster and say, oh, wow, they improved.

I mean, they draft well, but

in multiple ways, they look weaker.

Last year, McCarthy, first year running that offense entirely on his own, they played by far the easiest schedule of defenses.

This year, they're scheduled to play the 10th hardest.

They've been 25-4 versus non-playoff teams under McCarthy, but 12-14 versus playoff teams, not even talking about the actual playoffs.

It's just Dallas.

It's Jerry Jones.

Jerry Jones is getting older.

It depends what other shiny jewels.

That's another Belichick type spot for me, depending on what happens with Dak Prescott.

It's like, what wandering eye does Jerry Jones have if they have a collapse?

Because I don't really know how you can do much more in the regular season.

We all get that.

I know he could do more in the postseason, but there just seems to be an inability for Dallas to get there.

I mean, it's just frustrating.

It almost feels like kind of sports gaudy.

And Mike McCarthy, the idea of at this point projecting them to go win multiple playoff games,

I just, I'm kind of over that, except the only thing is that one of the other major names on this list is inside their own division.

So a lot to be, you know, a lot of TBD here for Dallas.

But yeah, he's like, I think he's been on a hot seat for two years.

All right, let's stick with Dallas.

You just mesmerize me, Mark.

You just mesmerize me like nobody's business.

Does Jerry Jones have a wandering eye?

Like, that should be like a catchphrase that we should just chop off and just save.

I'll answer that.

Yes, he does.

I find this to be a Belichick landing spot, but I also look and go, boy, wouldn't that be a wonderful conversation you'd love to be in the fly on the wall for?

Bill coming in going, I probably want a lot of control and personnel.

And Jerry going, I'm not sure if you saw my recent quotes before the start of the season, but I'm the general manager here.

And that's not going to be a good thing.

I don't think in a million years would those two guys work together.

That's the part, Dan, that kind of sticks out to me where is this going to be a landing spot for Bill Belichick when it really comes to the nitty-gritty of negotiating those type of things that would go on within the building.

I also know that they're dealing with a defensive coordinator change,

not entirely by firing someone.

Somebody gets, you know, Dan Quinn gets a head coaching job, but it's going to be very different on that defense with Mike Zimmer as opposed to Dan Quinn.

They have talent on that side.

I thought Dan Quinn coaches, obviously, that side of the ball very, very well, and it's in a very, very different manner the way Mike Zimmer is going to do it.

And I think when you have to handle a piece like micah parsons that is so unique i mean like i remember talking to dan quinn once sidebar uh on the sidelines about how he went and talked to college and pro

head basketball coaches coaches in the nba how they dealt with players that like are seven feet but also bring the ball up and play point guard sometimes like literally asking what it's like to handle such a diverse type of skill set that can do so many different things specifically about micah parsons I just thought that's remarkable coaching to call guys in the NBA and ask them how can I handle Micah Parsons.

Um,

I would throw Dennis Allen

right above Mike McCarthy.

Okay, I would probably slide that down.

That's just kind of uh

educated guessing with a lot of education

on McCarthy.

Look, would you put him in we know, they know, he knows?

Obviously, not you have him above McCarthy, but if you're if your sources are telling you and do not reveal your sources you're our insider so we got to keep that online keep that there does he have any chance of surviving this year uh boy i thought this was our last category this our last category this is our last there is well there's a blank category that i usually reserve for somebody that is totally done i think you might put it in there

really might you might have to put that in there

no chance i don't think so i i kind of just don't um

it just yeah it seems like that's where it should be.

James, where does like Mickey Loomis fall into that?

Because I feel like, and you tell me if I'm wrong, but like Mickey Loomis is a strong reason that a lot of things just stay the same there.

But I look at Dennis Allen, who's had like pretty overt problems getting along with key players on that defense in multiple offseasons.

So when you say he's sort of just doomed, is it like the organization has lost belief in a guy that I'm surprised they still believed in going into this season?

Yeah, it almost felt like a higher mark to some extent to exactly what you said, right?

Like there isn't a whole lot of love of change down there.

And you promote the guy that was already there.

Like it almost has the sense of like, okay, I think it's time to like

really rip the Sean Payton band-aid and just go completely fresh.

And it just kind of sense to have that vibe.

It's the way the roster is, in all honesty, like

how long they've kept a lot of players on that roster.

It just seems like it's heading towards a spot where it goes, I think this needs to be a completely clean break.

And I'll just throw this out because we kind of talked about Alan a little bit where sometimes

because the football cognizant

doesn't like Dennis Allen, it almost there's a little bit of a disconnect in terms of success rate.

For instance, his first season, they were 7-10.

Last year, they went 9-8.

I think you mentioned with another head coach earlier in this conversation,

you know, well, he was playing meaningful football on Christmas Eve.

I think the Saints went to week 18 with a chance to make the playoffs.

So it's not as if they were this, like, even though they're discussed this way, it's not like they were a 4-13 train wreck last year.

And

that doesn't necessarily mean that he's safer as a result, but I'm just saying that they did show at least tangible progress from year one to year two.

So I'm just not ready to put him in that category where it just feels hopeless because I just don't see him that way.

Even though he's not, he's not.

If this was like popularity rankings, even within the fan base, he would be probably in that category.

But in terms of a hot butt, I need to hold on that one.

Salah, by the way, I should bring him up because I'm a Jets fan.

18 and I believe 34

in three years.

And it's very, very unusual to get a fourth year in the NFL when you do not make the playoffs in any of those first three seasons.

So I think absolutely, given the stakes around the swords.

Do you count last year though, Dan?

Do you count or is that just a a pass year?

I think the reason he's back is because they gave him a mulligan.

I think last year he was pretty close to this territory.

I think I had him a tier higher going into 23 than he is now.

But yeah, I think there will be no excuses if this team does not win

at least nine or ten games and finally end that playoff streak.

That's where I stand on Sala.

But he is, listen, we talk about Reddick and

it feels, Mark, like a team that can very easily crumble and implode.

But also, you know, Douglas has built a good roster here overall, so there are no more excuses.

They even gave him a real backup quarterback this year if Rodgers can't stay healthy.

Salah's got to get him back to the playoffs.

Well, yeah, I mean,

it's as pressure-packed a job

as there is in the AFC.

And I think he's a good coach.

I really do.

I think that, you know, it's just funny to hear like Joe Douglas this morning talk about how unified that roster was a year ago through all that they went through.

And To me, it's like, okay, maybe,

but this is the season where there's just literally no, I don't like coaches that go into a campaign with an organization that's shown no ability to get to the postseason, but there are no excuses to not win 12 games.

It's like, okay, there are a lot of reasons you don't win 12 games,

even if you're a good team on a good.

But I mean, but, well, but this is

a good one.

Yeah.

Sure, but if you come out of two years with Aaron Rodgers, and I get last year was last year, but if you come out of this experiment with nothing to show for it and if Rodgers ever wanted to stay for another year like he said it's like okay let's get a coach and a different offensive coordinator by the way if Rodgers will play ball that we can maximize this guy versus more nonsense and so it's really on Salah to show that he can keep this whole thing together because no matter what I mean I love I love that Joe Douglas said this will be a roller coaster ride whether it's positive or negative like you're gonna have to manage a lot and like Salah's got to show he can do that with a lot of big moving parts and I'm on the record on this in the past year, especially.

I'm not a Salah fan.

I do think he's maybe a level higher than he needs to be.

I think he's a great defensive coordinator.

I don't necessarily think he

has shown me that he's a head coach at this point, but he's getting one more chance.

All right.

That's it.

That is the hot butt rankings.

Anything else, James?

We're not going to talk about Nick Siriani.

We should.

We should talk about Siriani.

You ready?

I'm sitting here.

You guys going over Robert Salah, and I'm like, and we're just like debating.

I'm like, guys, the more fascinating guy out of this entire group is the guy that literally was a questionable holding call away from winning the Super Bowl two years ago.

Right.

That feels like a long time ago.

That feels like a long time ago.

In Philadelphia years.

In Philadelphia years for sure.

Being a native and knowing my boys back at home, we were just all partying out here in Colorado last weekend, and definitely Nick Siriani was a constant discussion point between me and my friends.

We also forget that last year they started 10 and one.

So like, really him getting getting into this category, Dan, is because of like seven games.

Well, historically bad seven games.

Very much so.

Things went bad.

Cultural issues like things in the locker room, off the field is a big part of it as well.

I would say also if you covered any of those games, I did.

Jalen Hurts could barely move

physically, which is a huge part of the way this offense works.

The offense was just really stale.

It wasn't overly complicated in the first place.

Here's a funny story.

I had a a buddy who's an OC with another team who was like, hey, one of my offseason projects is to study the Eagles offense.

And I was like, oh,

tell me what that was all about.

And he goes, A, Shane Steichen calls a hell of a game.

And B, they just have talent everywhere.

And he just, and it's not complex.

This offense is just not complex at all.

So you eliminate Shane Steichen's play calling in that.

Everybody just gets a little bit older.

And you have a first-time play caller walk in and running the exact same system who has never called plays

really pretty much ever in their life in Brian Johnson.

And you expected it to be perfect as an offense and just not go backwards at all.

But I understand why it's here.

I'm not denying that, right?

Because when you bring in two new coordinators and you have to go on the Nick Siriani apology tour, which was what I was told this offseason was to people coming in the building, explaining about the mistakes that you made, he was very clear to people like Vic Fangio, I was told, and others, that, you know, it's on me entirely that we switched to Matt Patricia.

I panicked.

That's poor coaching.

That's poor CEO role that I essentially have now in this organization.

I can be better.

That falls on me.

A lot of it was around the league as well because he does rub some people the wrong way.

But man, were things just so the opposite a year and a half ago.

And that's, it is fascinating.

I do think, though, they have the talent

to make a deep playoff.

Oh, absolutely.

But that's part of it, though.

The expectations are high to

wipe away the last six weeks of the season.

And, you know, as much as we have fun with the Big Dom of it all, it's funny to me that so much was made of like, oh, it's not a huge surprise that the team fell apart because the security sideline guy wasn't there.

It's like, to me, that's not a, that's, that's, that's great for Big Dom and his reputation, but it's not the greatest look for the head coach that everything fell apart when Big Dom disappeared.

I mean, come on.

And I would also add, though, to this for both of you guys, is really this is another team that has the Belichick sniff to it.

Jeffrey Laurie has always been fascinated with

being a Boston guy and the crafts and everything up there.

But I also know this is another dynamic, and maybe this is another reason why,

you know, Howie Rosen is one of the best GMs in football.

Are you going to move on from now?

Howie motherfucker!

Exactly.

It's my guy right there.

Like, you think, can you just play that again, real quick?

Howie motherfucker.

Exactly.

How would that go?

I mean, you're not going to, Jeffrey Lurie has proven time and time again, he's not moving on from Howie Roseman.

I also think that's why he was one of the best GMs in football.

He can make mistakes and correct them, and he has no fear of losing his job.

How would that work with Bill Belgium?

And maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't.

But this Nick Siriani, I think, situation is the most, maybe.

Maybe the most fascinating one to discuss of all of these coaching positions.

It really is, in my opinion.

Maybe that's just my Philly roots.

I know.

I mean, I think his placement on this list tells you that it is going to be an interesting ride.

All right, there you go.

The hot butt rankings 2024.

Let's take a break and then we'll get into that very special dinner from earlier this week.

We'll be right back.

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Back to you, Dan.

All right, yes, we are back now.

Before we go, we must get into the big dinner, the big underdog dinner.

What a time it was had in

beautiful Santa Monica, California, right there by the sea.

With

who do we have?

What a one-on-all star.

We had all four of us right here.

We had the Gravedigger, Zuzzer, Sese, James Palmer.

We had Jake Rudin, Justin Pugh, AQ Shipley,

Tim and John from Underdog, Hayden Winks, our fantasy stud.

And at the center of everything, in my opinion, of course, was Colt McCoy,

the former quarterback who is also now part of the Underdog team.

And James, I gave you a heads up.

I think it was the same night as I was getting ready for dinner.

Putting some more scar on your face.

Yeah.

I said, oh, wait, this guy, this Palmer, he's the senior NFL reporter for Underdog.

I need an extra pair of eyes on the gravedigger, sassy, Colt McCoy situation.

So do you want to get the...

We had a happy hour, rooftop happy hour before dinner.

What were your, let's start early impressions pre-dinner, how things went.

And if you're watching on YouTube, as you must, this is an initial shot of the chair seating, which

early advantage gravedigger.

I'll leave it at that.

James, go ahead.

Very much so.

Usually a playing field is level.

This was exactly the opposite.

As you can see, the shrubbery in the middle of this beautiful little cove we have,

Zest is just not in a proper form to share a small, low-seated cocktail table with the Colt McCoy, which I think takes relationships to another level.

When you have a table that is only about the size of a frisbee and you have to share your drinks on that, you get intimate.

And intimacy started early, and Mark was sitting on a bench to where like his feet didn't even really hit the ground.

And I was like, oh man, his feet are kind of kicking the side a little bit.

Almost like a little boy like this,

Cole isn't going to really care for this.

So I wasn't even shown in that picture because I'm behind that bush.

There's a ficus there.

I'm behind.

Yeah,

I was behind that bush.

You had the worst seat, James, just to be real here.

Well, it was, it was, it had some sort of white tiger plushing on the top of it that was kind of comfy.

Okay, hold on here.

Wait, let me jump in before I throw it to you, Mark.

Before I throw it to you and Mark, so we all have

new levels of absurdity.

We have an open first cocktail.

I go back to the bar, which is about 20 feet here behind where Colt McCoy is sitting.

And I had a dispatch that I recorded for posterity just to let people know what the energy was at that moment.

No matter what.

Okay, I'm at the bar.

And you want

half an hour into this meetup on the rooftop.

I would say that

Graver's off to an early start.

He's closer to Colt.

He said one thing to him.

Colt

replied to him briefly.

Mark is

further away and has yet to have an interaction.

This is

Zuzzer from the bar about to get another Tito's.

P.S.

Jay Gruden mocked me for putting lemon in my Tito's soda.

He takes it with an orange slice, so now I will do that to try to fit in.

Okay, check back in later.

Mark.

Well, first of all, you know, I am in my fifth decade on the planet, okay?

I am not a little puppy dog that when I see, you know, something that I want to interact with or hang out with, that I just rush up to them and start licking their calves and kneecaps.

Like, I took a wonderful seat next to Tim Livingston, who I hadn't really got a chance to meet in person before.

Had a great time talking.

DP of content underneath.

Jabs in.

Yeah, and what a great meeting that was.

And I got a couple jabs in with Jay Gruden, who I, you know, started to enjoy more and more as the night go on.

I was like, this was early in the night.

This was our first drink.

It was like, the night is rich and long and will unfold.

And I know that there will come a time, if it is to be, for me to speak to Colt McCoy.

But my strategy was not to rush right up to him and try to

sit in his lap or something.

So I

was very happy with how this played out.

Justin, how about the insinuation, Justin, that perhaps you are the little

Labrador puppy licking at the calves of one Cole McCoy.

Yeah, I take strong objection to this.

If we look at this photo again, look at that photo again.

Yeah, so I just want to point out the way things started, I was sitting next to James behind this fern, and not only was I cut off from conversation.

I was cut off from conversation from essentially everyone because of where this fern was.

And I looked around.

I was like, should I just go sit on that little poof thing and actually be in the center of the group so that I can enjoy this?

Or should I sit on the outskirts and hold hold my drink and not really talk to anyone like a loser?

And forgive me, I don't remember who encouraged me to actually go take that.

I did.

In fairness, my back was to you.

You were behind, buried behind the ficus.

And

it was the right move for you to change spots.

And it just so happened, I think, a happy coincidence for you that that was directly across your boyhood hero.

Yes, it was.

And I was really talking to Justin Pugh at first more than anybody because he was not actively involved in a conversation.

And then that sort of brought the rest of the gentleman sitting there into our conversation.

So, really, in some ways, Colt addressed me before I even go to him.

Ooh, all right.

Okay.

Wow.

I think I like that Mark has talked about age and talked about experience and talked about, you know, I wasn't going to rush right into it.

He slow played it because he said, what is longer?

The dinner down the street or the pre-drink cocktail?

Because I'm going to be Mark Zessler and I'm going to slow play this.

And who am I going to sit next to at this lengthy dinner with appies and wine and post-dinner cocktails?

Well, we're going to saddle up right next to Colt McCoy.

Well, let's talk about that.

Didn't we do that?

Marquis.

Yeah.

Let's talk about the transition to that dinner because there was a major, major setback for Graver.

Because

things kind of wrapped up quicker than anyone realized because we had a, I believe, a 5.30 reservation.

And all of a sudden, everybody looked down at their watches and it was 5.38.

So everyone popped up, the tab was settled, and we shot down the elevator for the 10-minute walk to Boa.

Here's the problem.

At that exact moment that everyone realized that we had a scram, Gravedigger, he's in the restroom.

He's in the lavatory.

The loo.

So

he's in the loo.

And so we're 50 yards clean of the place, down the elevator, 50 yards clean of the place.

Jay Gruden commented that I had too much cologne on in the elevator.

We're packed in there.

A lot of offensive linemen in there.

We're 50 yards clean.

And someone says we're missing somebody.

And then that's when I go, oh, God, our producer.

So you come out, Justin.

After you have

this interplay with Colt, you come out and you see the whole place empty.

That must have been a sick, sick feeling in your stomach.

Yeah.

Yeah, and the worst part is, like, I had to, I had to use the bathroom for a few minutes there.

You weren't going to give up.

Colt gets up and goes to the bathroom.

Well, that was part of it.

But Colt gets up and goes to the bathroom.

It's like, all right, the last thing I'm going to do is follow him into the bathroom.

He comes back from the bathroom.

Justin Pugh goes to the bathroom.

I'm like, oh, great.

I got to wait for someone else to come back.

Justin Pugh comes back.

I don't want to just be doing back and like immediately.

He sits down.

I leave.

So I like

10 minutes.

Yeah.

And then I finally get up to go.

And yes, I come out.

Everyone's gone.

I'm like, well, they were talking about how we needed to get to dinner soon.

So I just

want to tell you one thing.

Everyone left.

I want to tell you one thing, just so that there is a reality to this.

It's not just that we're roving psychos.

I actually was one of the early verbalists to suggest that you were missing and that we should wait.

And even if they wanted to keep going, we would have waited for you, a smaller group of us.

So just like, it's not like we're out there like, let's ding-dong ditch Justin in the back.

I do.

I do.

I actually recall.

I recall, because I was standing next to him on the side of the road, what Colt McCoy said when we found out that Grave David was missing.

Do you know what he said?

What he said.

Maybe I should go get him.

I can't leave behind a fellow Longhorn.

Whoa.

I mean, I was like, oh boy, what an impression this man has made on that small stool so quickly.

So now we're in dinner.

And James, one thing that, because you and I were seated next to each other and we had a wonderful time together at the dinner.

Here's a shot on YouTube.

I took this shot of, once again, Graver, this is the walk to dinner, falling back in the crowd, speaking directly with Colt McCoy.

So he is really-that's my shoulder, by the way.

It is.

It is.

It's a masculine shoulder.

So we get to the dinner, and there's always that.

So there's 10 or 11 of us.

There's a long table, and there's always that, where is everyone going to sit?

So just the way we all filed in, I'm in the situation where I'm going to be the one next to Colt on the near side of the table, on the far side of the table, and you know it.

Graver is already sized up where Colt is, and he is now lined up on the opposite end.

So they are directly making eye contact.

So now it became Mark once again, almost being a little bit, I don't know, laissez-faire about the whole thing.

At a certain point, you got to get aggressive.

He's now about, he lost the across the way spot, and the spot next to Colt, he is not saddled up next to him, so he could be on the opposite end.

Zuzzer realizes this, and what happens?

Mark is next to me, and I say, Mark, here, you take this.

And at that moment, I think Mark and I were even once Mark left the NFL and joined me in the wilderness.

That was Mark really laying out for me in a big spot.

At this point, it's even Steven because I give up the seat that allows Mark to sit next to Colt and begin his great comeback, Mark.

You absolutely did that.

And I wouldn't be like, you know, I didn't ask you to do it either.

Well, you kind of did.

You said, look at it.

You kind of did.

You said, hey, I maybe made some eye contact, like, for real, like, you're going to go after all this dramatic, so you're going to go sit next to him, and I'm going to be down who knows where.

I guess that's what I'm saying.

But I would have never done it.

That was your spot.

Nope,

I give you total credit.

You know, and

I think it was, you know, nature and the earth suggesting this is how this needed to go.

Yeah.

Can I clear up quickly how I ended up in this seat?

It wasn't like I beelined for the one right across from Colt.

It was like

I sort of was the last one into the restaurant.

A lot of people were already sitting.

And for some reason, that seat just happened to be open.

And it was either that seat or the head of the table.

And I was like, I ain't sitting on the head of the table.

Plus, Tim Livingston organized the whole dinner.

Like, he should be the head of the table out of, you know, just status.

Like we should give him that honor.

So I just sat in that seat and I was like, it happened.

A likely story.

Once again, just quite a bit.

Settled for across the way from Colt McCoy.

That is the second time in 10 minutes Justin has said, yeah, just the way it worked out, I was directly in front of my hero.

Yeah.

I mean,

it was lucky that that was the empty seat because if Jay had been sitting there, as you can see in the video, I had

to keep moving in this video, just bouncing.

Crazy.

Like, I would have sat where Jay's sitting, and Jay would have been across from Colt if that had been the open seat.

So it really was luck.

All right.

And then to put a bow on this, Mark,

it appeared to me from that point onward, you had found your niche.

You and Colt, I saw, had some nice conversations.

And Justin, I know you seem to have nice conversations.

McCoy told

a story to the table that showed his quarterback leadership skills

that just wowed everybody.

And then, Mark, I know you found a spirit animal in Jay Gruden, and you guys had a great time together.

I had a fun time talking to Jay and getting to know him.

He very much coach vibe all the way through with Jay Gruden.

And overall, just a great night.

Yeah, I would just say that, like,

I don't get to hang out with coaches and players as much as

you do, James.

And today's NFL player is just so not what the average non-sports fan would think.

Talking with, like, at every,

you try to talk to everyone.

Like, Justin Pugh was super interesting to to me AQ Shipley like and Colt and Jake Rudin were both like Colt was like what I thought he would be and then I say that in the nicest way just based on what I've you know kind of learned about him over the years he couldn't have been more quarterbacky in a good way and a leader at that dinner and then Jake Rudin like it's like yeah he is sort of my spirit animal I love coaches but like at one point we were walking back to the hotel together the two of us and he's just funny

yeah I mean he was I think we got kind of lost at one point but we were talking about any given Sunday.

He knew someone that was like

a bunch of people that were in that film.

And, like, I just enjoyed him so much.

And by the end, like, you know, he was the kind of the guy that's like, well, did we want to hang out for one more, everyone?

And, like, I know, my last memory was at the end.

I was karate chopping Tim Livingston near the elevator.

And that probably didn't need to happen.

But it was a, I think that just shows that the night was a grand success

on multiple levels.

One of my jobs, I find, as being

Mark Sessler's friend, is we got to know when to bail.

And that's when it was like, all right, time to get in the elevator.

Who asked you if you could do another one somewhere, Danny?

Who asked you?

I think it was the great JP.

Yeah, I did.

I said, hey, guys, I can still roll.

This is what was going on.

I was down at sea level now, living my life at altitude.

Down at sea level, I was rocking and rolling.

You can handle your sauce at sea level like nobody's business.

So I was like, hey, Dan, let's do another one.

Let's go.

I mean, I'll just add one quick thing.

Dan and I were down here and we had an amazing time.

He's a nice guy.

And Dan and I are down here and we're with a couple of O-linemen.

And

we had some stories, Dan, that were fantastic with AQ Shipley and Justin Few, our little, our little thing down there.

So I actually had my head turned away from

the eliminate thing that was going on next to me with Grave Thinger and Zesty over there.

Like it was kind of like I was waiting for somebody to have to get like to get the time out card.

Like, hey, hey, Mark, sorry, timeout.

I'm going to spend some time with Grave Thinger.

Like, but it didn't have, we were, we were doing our own thing down here with these offensive linemen that actually,

as you mentioned, I'll close my thought out with this.

I do spend a lot of time in locker rooms, a lot of times around these guys and all these different things.

Offensive linemen don't say a word during their playing career, but they are some of the smartest players this league has,

and they remember everything, and their post-playing career stories are out of this world.

Because I think they're dying to say them, because they haven't said anything for like a decade.

So A.Q.

Shipley and I were going back and forth about when I lived down in Tampa for that whole training camp.

Remember this, Dan?

That whole training camp with Tom Brady and I lived in this old lady's house.

The COVID camp, yeah.

The COVID camp.

And man, did we have some stories because there was a lot of things going on at that Tampa Bay first year and a half in there.

But yeah,

it was a dinner to be had.

It was wonderful.

And I think both of you had stellar performances.

With Dan's previous phone call to me, I was a bit

weary of maybe an incident occurring, but everybody handled themselves tremendously.

Yeah, everybody comported themselves overall well, represented, heed the call well.

And thank you to Tim and the whole underdog team for the dinner and being, in general,

great bosses so far.

All right.

Yep.

That's it.

Oh, and check out Clean Pocket, an underdog show featuring Colt McCoy, Jay Gruden, A.Q.

Shipley, and Justin Dan.

You bootleck of you.

No.

Didn't mention my show, but that's okay.

Yeah, what about your show, James?

My show 89, where I'm very heavily represented in the title

with Steve Smith and I, Steve Smith Sr., I might add,

where we have a show where we will talk on underdog fantasy on a variety of topics, but the equally promotable 89

for both of us.

I love it.

This is the second time

Palmer has kind of,

oh, by the way, mentioned the show is just called 89.

Like, it's on his radar.

It's something that he couldn't get put in the contract to get his name in the show.

So that's up for the contract negotiation in a couple of years or whatever.

But maybe we'll get there, James.

Someday.

Thank you.

Someday we'll sit at the big boy table next to Colt.

Yeah, James, like Connor Orr, like Jordan Rodriguez, like Michael Sean Dugar, is going to be a regular presence on Heath the Call all throughout the season.

And we're so excited about it.

And thank you to everybody for listening.

Another week is in the books, three weeks in here, and we're having a great time.

We hope you are too.

Until next time, heed the call.

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