Women Love Nice, Nerdy Guys like YOU—If You Do 1 Important Thing (with Dating Coach Nick Notas)

I was just nerdy Nick and some beautiful woman was like, hey, I want to talk to you.

Right.

Wow.

It's amazing how many women like nerds.

Absolutely.

Especially nowadays for anybody listening.

I feel like it's cooler and cooler to be nerdy, to be a little weird to Get a Girlfriend podcast. I'm your host, dating coach Conal Barrett.
I'm here to help you flirt with confidence, get more dates, and get a great girlfriend, all by being authentic, really genuine, really real. And our guest today is the perfect person to talk about authenticity and being real and basically dating with integrity because that is, in my view, a lot of what Nick Notice is about.
Today, Nick Notice is here. Nick is a world-class dating coach.
He's got over 15 years of experience helping guys like you build up your self-esteem, get

good at flirting, get dates.

And he's got a huge audience out there.

His advice reaches over 300,000 people a month.

And he's worked with pretty much everyone out there from successful professionals to

engineers to, well, nerds like me.

And Nick has also been featured in outlets like Time, CBS, and Men's Fitness. He's the real deal.
I rarely have men on this show talking about dating, but Nick is a true shining light in this world of dating advice for men. And we're going to talk about helping you get a great girlfriend.
Nick, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks so much for having me.
And fellow nerd here, so I'm on board. Let's get nerdy.
And you can go to nicknotice.com, that's N-I-C-K-N-O-T-A-S dot com, to learn all about Nick. And speaking of your homepage, speaking of your website, I was just reading it before we hopped on, and you tell a pretty compelling story about how back in the mid-double zeros, you sort of hit a low point in your life.
You were going through some things both personally and with your career. And it essentially began you on this sort of journey into now becoming a dating expert who helps guys date.
Can you talk a little bit about that, that struggling, that moment of struggle you had and how you bounced out of it. Yeah, basically, at one period in my life, basically around 18 years old, everything kind of crumbled.
So I was a nerd to start with, but I'm off to college and all of a sudden my dad gets really sick and has to close down his family business. My only girlfriend ever dumped me on our two-year anniversary.
Find out a week later she's with somebody else. And then all my friends moved out of Boston because why would you want to go to college in Boston when you can go to California? So very quickly I found myself alone, not really knowing how to meet women, meet people, and started probably, I don't know, six-month spiral of depression until I found, sadly at the time, the pickup artist industry.
And it started with the seed as an 18-year-old of, wow, if I could go out and meet beautiful women, this would be amazing. And just started devouring everything I could there, going out, doing horribly for months and months and months because I had no idea what I was doing at all.
And then very quickly got some attention of some local pickup artist companies. I spent the first couple of years doing that and realized there's a lot of good ideas here

that teach people how to present themselves well, be charismatic, have good body language. But a lot of it is rooted in insecurity, not helping you be actually confident or honest.
And so I said, I want to be able to do this in a way that takes all these principles but helps somebody integrate it into their actual personality. So true.
I had the same experience. I remember being in a seminar in the late double zeros, and on the stage is this preening, peacocking guy spouting this Johnny Cochran type of catchphrases.
It was like, the alpha male gets all the tail, or something silliness like that. And he was talking about, yeah, if a girl isn't into me, I put that bitch on the next thing smoking.
And I was like, like a train? Is that what that means? What the hell is he talking about? And I was watching him. At the same time, he had at least some concepts that I found actually useful and powerful.
And I thought if we could just find a way to take some of the best advice and just not have it in this toxic dirt bag and teach it with some class, that could be really cool. Reasonable.
Yeah. So I think we have a lot in common there.
If you're curious, I do have a quick story similar that I don't know if I've shared anywhere. Hit us.
One of my big turning points was the same thing. I went to a pickup artist conference.
The final presenter said, okay, everybody put away your phones. Give them up.
We got something private there. We're only going to show to a few tours.
Goes out. All of a sudden, the video starts coming on and it's a rocky theme song i'm like okay what's going on same thing guys peacocked out got his hair gelled up and it was just like a five minute compilation of like here's some like b-list celebrity on david letterman and here's me secretly filming having sex with her uh in my and then it was like a compilation cut to like rocky and of course at the end everyone's like cheering and they all want to sign up and that was where i was like okay i don't want to be this person um i think there's a lot of really really important things guys need to learn but this is not where i should be going down the rabbit hole and uh yeah that was pretty unforgettable oh man that i i had a similar experience i obviously They won't name any names.
It wasn't a famous woman. It was just a random woman that this male so-called expert was hooking up with.
And he showed a glimpse of them having sex in a private, like a hidden video type of session. And I just remember thinking, well, I'm glad you hooked up with her, but you just showed a room full of people, a woman who was being videotaped having intercourse that she obviously didn't consent to.
It's like so fucking gross. Also borderline illegal.
I assume so. It's just disgusting in every way possible.
So, okay, so you have this kind of low point and you had to bounce back from it. Looking back, if you had to think back to some of the biggest lessons, did you have a moment from that era where you said, well, there's something really powerful here? Not the pickup part, but an action you took, a win you had, a moment where you were like, wow, I didn't know I was capable of doing that.
Totally. It came in the most random time.
I think I was actually coaching one night. I wasn't doing really well.
I was having a really poor night and I was feeling like I was trying really hard. And then at the end of the night, I felt dejected.
I started walking out and I remember I saw some woman with like, I don't know, really cool kind of punky leather jacket style, you know, outfit. And just without even thinking about it, I said, oh my God, I love that.
It's so cool. And whatever edgy.
And immediately we hit it off. And it kind of started this chain reaction of where I felt like my 15 year old self in a way of just like nerding out about music and rock and video games and not even thinking ahead for the first time.
And it went so well that I remember leaving and having basically a breakdown of like, oh my God, I haven't been seen or shown up in so long. I don't know who I am.
And somebody liked me for that. And I hadn't felt that in a long time because you can get, as we've seen in many of the pickup artists I know, you can get all the success in the world, but it feels hollow if you aren't yourself, if nobody's actually ever appreciated you.
And so it was a pretty huge realization from a throwaway comment of like, I would never do this again not knowing myself anymore. And just kind of started the catalyst of like, I think there's a better way.
She just liked who you are, who you are. Yeah, that moment.
Absolutely. And you never feel that because you're always trying to be Nico, the pickup artist, and I got my hair spiked.
And right. And I was just nerdy Nick.
And some beautiful woman was like, hey, I want to talk to you. Right.
Wow. It's amazing how many women like nerds.
Absolutely. Especially nowadays for anybody listening.
I feel like it's cooler and cooler to be nerdy, to be a little, you know, weird or quirky and lean into it. Hell yeah.
I mean, what takes off on TikTok? What takes off in social media? Somebody really kind of leaning into that radically nerdy self, because that's what stands out in a crowded world of so much media, social media, apps, swiping, coming out. You have to stand out somehow, and there's only one of you.
Absolutely. Okay.
So going back to your journey, when did you realize, you know what? I love coaching. I want to do this.
I really want to help men. Honestly, it happened so quick.
I probably don't even remember. It sounds like it like almost right away.
Yeah. It was a completely organic calling.
Um, I was a computer science background. I was thinking about, you know, becoming a relationship counselor going pre-med, but started going out, helped a couple of friends, saw some friends blossom and be able to meet people.
And I was like, this is incredible. Because I had grown up with everybody like that.
Like all my friends were guys that weren't very successful with women and weren't very sociable. And we had our own little clique.

And to see that it was possible and really great guys could succeed in that way,

have meaningful connections in that way, I was like, this is it.

I can't imagine anything more fulfilling.

And to be honest, I was getting to the point where I love tech and I'm a nerd and I've been on a computer since I was like four years old.

I hated programming.

It just wasn't for me.

And I like people.

You struggle with dating, right? Sure, you have a good job and cool friends, but you just aren't sure how to flirt, the apps don't work for you, and sometimes women put you in the friend zone. It's frustrating.
Hey, I struggled with dating too. As an introvert and a total nerd, I didn't just live in the friend zone.
I owned real estate there. But I escaped.
Using the dating philosophy of radical authenticity, which I've used to help thousands of men in 17 countries find love. It's what I wrote about in my best-selling book, Dating Sucks But You Don't.
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So go to datingtransformation.com and book a free call with me. On our call, I'll tell you how my one-on-one coaching will help you find your dream girlfriend, and you'll be doing it by flirting with confidence and authenticity.
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Tell me about a moment when you saw a man, a young man, maybe not a young man,

you saw a man who you saw yourself in.

You saw a really great win. You saw him do something he didn't know he was capable of.
Tell us a story. Any early wins with some of the men you coached? Yeah.
I mean, one that just immediately comes to mind, it's a little bit early to mid in my career, but I would say the first retreat I ever held where I'm like, I have no idea if I can do this, if I can take people around the world. And really, you know, there's always that voice in your head like, okay, you've been coaching locally and done some one-on-ones.
Are you really this person who can make a transformation in people's lives? And just winged it, hosted a retreat in Mallor in Majorca and guy came out of a divorce had been reeling for a long time and the very first retreat ends up meeting a woman that he ends up getting married to and has a kid with now and like I know it's cliche there could be some earlier wins but there was nothing more powerful than that of like you host something you make a make a difference, somebody's entire life has changed because of it. And it just further reinforced, like, I want to keep doubling down.
Because even at that time, I was doubting like, okay,

I've been doing this for a while. Is this, you know, where else do I take this? You know, and

so yeah, now, it's also led to the power of what I believe to be in person work.

That's incredible. You brought you helped bring a child into the world, basically.
Many of them by now, I'm sure. I hope.
I mean, I feel like a weird person saying this, but a friend once said, wouldn't it be cool to make a million happy families? And I'm like, yeah, that would be amazing. I remember the first client.
I'll call him Kevin. And I didn't even know what had happened.
We'd lost contact for about a year after we parted ways with my coaching. And everything seemed to be great.
But we weren't in touch. So I didn't know what was going on.
All of a sudden, one day, he sends me a pic of his new baby. That's awesome.
I'm just like, I did that. Kind of.
Right? Kind of. A little bit.
I helped. Of course you did.
Yeah. That's cool.
Coaching in Mallorca. Yeah.
I mean, it was pretty cool. That's not why I chose it.
But if you're going to host a retreat, doing it on an island is not a bad way to go. Before we talk a little bit about some tactics and some how-to, which I get to on most episodes, but I'd love to speak a bit more holistically with you.
Sure. Because what I've noticed about your advice is you talk a lot about having a more holistic approach to this, having a more fulfilling life.
I found a quote from yours. I believe that this is from your website where you talk about emphasizing, quote, romantic success is a byproduct of a fulfilling life.
And that's a very different shift from get the girl at all costs, right? How does a guy make that shift and start focusing on having a more fulfilling life, having a richer life in a way that is related to his dating success, but isn't so tactical. Any thoughts there? Yeah, I think it always starts with saying, okay, what in my past have I enjoyed doing for myself? Even if it's just alone, right? I like to learn playing guitar or learning a language.
And I think just first thinking about how can I translate that to an external pursuit, a social pursuit where I can do this out in the world, right? Not even saying like it needs to go further than that. You need to approach people or whatever.
Just I think a lot of guys, especially now we're seeing, you know, the highest rates of social anxiety ever is like, you know, I stay at home. I do this all alone.
And the simplest way to get started on improving your life is saying, can I just be out in the world and exist and do that in that fashion? And being patient with yourself. I think if you take the small steps to say, okay, I'm just going to go out for an hour.
I don't need to talk to anyone. If I feel uncomfortable, I can leave.
But just putting yourself there, I think gives you you the light bulb of this is attainable. I can start to build a life for myself.
I don't have to, like, go to a bar and be a different guy. I can figure out a way to do the things I love and really connect with a lot of individuals.
And for me, that's the start of a great life, is having meaningful experiences and doing it with people that you want to connect with and uh so yeah just slowly figuring out what have i enjoyed in my life where can i do it out in the world and don't even worry about like going out and approaching people i think get into a good space enjoying it and then once you do that there's actually a lot less resistance to going out and approaching you know you tell a guy who has nothing going on in his life go out and talk to that woman right now. It's terrifying.
But you tell a guy who's now playing volleyball and he loves it and he's in the moment and he's pumped up and he's excited. And it's like, hey, why don't you talk to your teammates a little bit more? It's like, okay, cool.
There's just a smaller gap to cross. Great.
Volleyball is a great example as a hypothetical. What are some other examples of the kinds of pursuits you or some of your clients have pursued that have enriched their lives? Yeah.
Author meetups. Okay.
Any kind of like hiking or a run club. I love photography.
I've taken all sorts of like cooking classes just because I think it's good to learn how to cook for yourself. Okay.
Funny enough, I have a lot of clients who love rock climbing and that seems to be a huge success for them. I've enjoyed dance and I like music.
So different forms of dance has been really fun but also really fruitful. And, you know, I don't think you go there for that reason.
But certain activities like dance tend to have a lot more women than men.

And so if you are the fun guy enjoying yourself at a dance, you know, type event, you're going to get some people who want to engage you. But honestly, at this point in my career, everything.
I think if there are – I've had people have success at improv, people who go to like museum nights where like the Boston MFA Museum of Fine Arts

has like a first Friday where guys can go the first Friday, people can go the first

Friday of every month, listen to music, drink and look at art.

I think honestly, I haven't really found too many avenues that aren't successful for being

social or meeting women unless it is very, very male dominated.

But then that can be for you, right? If you want to go go to an automotive meetup just understand that's probably your guy's hobby you need something else that also has women there what the world of warcraft convention is not filled with total nines and tens what i made a mistake on some reddit meetups thinking i'd meet some great women and was not the case actually my ex-girlfriend then my girlfriend she was big into gaming and games and she did go to some uh some kind of gamer meetup and she's very pretty girl and she just could tell all the guys were like it was like an episode of big bang theory when they're when they see a beautiful girl and they're all talking about no you approach her no you approach her she could see the effect she was having on them she thought it was adorable that's hilarious well i'm glad she had a positive response some women might be like oh my god i'm chum in the water here but what i love about your advice though about choosing activities like improv or dance or take an acting class or cooking classes what i'm what i'm hearing you say is well you're guaranteed to get a new experience and grow and perhaps pick up a new hobby or passion that you love. That's a guaranteed win, regardless of what women you may or may not meet.
But if you have a chance to socialize with women there, that's a double bonus. So it's almost like you can't lose when you do this.
Yeah. Everything that I've done to meet women has enriched my life.
Photography. I have a video lighting set up right now and I love photography and I use it for my children and all that, right? Music, I'm playing drums now and being able to play like with other people.
So yeah, it just starts with doing things that enrich you, that have fun, they stick with you for life and then they happen to also get you in front of cool people. Yeah, and you don't have to think as hard and worry as hard about what to say, how to flirt.
What's my game? If what you get to talk about on that date or during that approach is, oh, yeah, I just got back from dance class. Want to check out this new move I learned? That's so much more attractive to a woman than the coolest thing, the coolest line that some TikTok so-called expert says, say this on your next date.
No, talk about the dance class you just took or the pasta primavera you just made in your cooking class. That would be so attractive to so many women.
Yeah, it's funny you say that. The few friends that I know, now I have more of them, but growing up that were charismatic and sociable and great with women, they were almost always interesting people.
It's never the guy who has nothing going on, who practices pick up five days a week, and women are like, oh my God, this guy's incredible. In fact, I have friends, I'm sure you do, that know nothing about this.
And they just love living a great life. And because of it, everybody wants to be part of it.
But it's ironic because for some reason I find maybe you do too. Most guys want like the hardest mode.
Every guy is like, no, I don't want to do all that. I want to go like cold approaching women on the street or in a bar even though I hate bars.
And I'm like, OK, it's fine if you want to. But I think that it's usually at least easier and more rewarding overall to do it a little bit more integrated as well.
Yeah. Is that what you mean when you talk about on your website about, quote, low pressure social interactions? You mean as part of a social circle type of interaction or an event, or what do you mean by low pressure social interactions? Yeah, exactly.
A warm environment. You have some commonality.
You guys are there for the same purpose. You might even know the same people.
The difference, I'm a huge believer nowadays in environment. And being in that environment, you know, you're not going to get a woman who is just completely curt and rude and standoffish in the middle of a class when you guys are interested in the same thing.
And just that alone makes the connection so much more likely. You randomly talk to a woman at a bar or in the daytime on the street, their defenses are up.
They don't know you. There's no context.
They don't know anyone around you. And it's not saying it's impossible.
And I've had tons of great success. And I met my wife at a bar so I can't lie but it is just infinitely easier but for some reason I think a lot of men say well if I go to an event there's only two women that I would want to talk to if I go to a bar there's 20 but sometimes you know I told you about this earlier my friend Jason he's almost exclusively meets people through those means and even if he goes out and sees one or two people, the conversion rate of a connection skyrockets, you know, he's not worried about talking to 20 people.
He's worried about talking to two and likely there's a good likelihood that it'll move forward. Well, there's a built in rapport that's there, or at least it, it can be there.
A rapport, if you walk up to a woman who,

if you're cooking class or you're improv class,

you're going out for post-class drinks,

or you're there at the meetup all talking about the language you're all learning,

and she knows you from being part of the meetup,

then it buys you at least a minute or two of socializing time when you walk up and say hello. It doesn't mean you're going to necessarily have an instant romantic spark.
But essentially, to your point, to use a business term, they're very warm leads. Yeah.
And I think I heard this on your interview with Haley Quinn. Just having that context puts people in a frame of like, I will give this a chance.
And just like that switch of like, okay, they're here for the same reason. Let me be receptive to it.
As opposed to, oh, this is a random person walking up to me and I'm at a default saying, oh, they have to prove why I should engage. And you see it here.
I've had guys who get 100 online matches. They go on a million dates and it's just whatever.
Nobody takes it seriously. And then all of a sudden, they meet one woman in person and all of a sudden they connect.
And I don't think it's because somehow those two people found each other in the universe. I think it's just the context, the environment makes it much more likely.
This is great. Let's keep talking about the environment.
This is great. Counterprogramming, not counterprogramming, but a different take.
Last week, I did a four-part series all about in-real-life dating, essentially approaching, doing it in a way that doesn't feel like approaching, but essentially is. But environmental dating, social circle interactions, it's a whole separate world.
And I think it's so powerful for guys to utilize if they want to. So quick story.
I remember one of the most beautiful women I ever walked up to and had an instant connection with, we were at a self-help event. We'd seen each other there.
We'd been there for a couple of days. She had actually been on stage with the self, this is a non-dating one, just like a life improvement.
I'm sorry, it was a business self-help program. And she had been on stage with the self this a non a non-dating one just like a life improvement a bit that's right it was a business self-help program and she had been on stage and and i went up and it was instant rapport and it just so happened we were each other's type she found me attractive and we vibed and we went out but if i approached her at a bar by the way oh she by the way she was a famous actress in eastern europe who had just moved to the U.S.
to try to make it in America in acting.

So she was like your movie star beautiful.

And if I approach her at a bar, you know, I have a one in five chance on my good day.

But at this event, instant connection.

Because to your point, the environment just said, oh, these two people have something in common.

And that just buys you at least the first couple minutes of a conversation. It's beautiful, and especially things like self-improvement.
It showcases, it's a good way to also these environments to convey your values, right? If you're going there proactively for a self-improvement seminar, you are probably somebody who's trying to be thoughtful, trying to grow, trying to do all those things. Funny enough, one of my clients, I introduced him to Brene Brown.

He saw a woman in a coffee shop reading a Brene Brown book. It was like, oh my God,

you're reading the new book. I love it.
Blah, blah, blah. Boom.
Done. Right? Just off that one

conversation piece. The way you frame that, at first I thought you meant you just walk around

with Brene Brown next to you all the time. Oh, hey.
Wow. What does she charge does she charge for that? Oh, my God.
Hey, everybody. This is Brene Brown.
She just follows me wherever I go. Oh, you mean actually having Brene Brown.
I thought you didn't mind having a book. That would even be greater.
No. Hey, just Brene Brown follows you around all day.
That's funny. That would be awesome.
That's your plus one. Anyway.
But what a great insightful person to introduce that gentleman to. Absolutely.
Sure. Although, if you can get Brene Brown to be your wingwoman, that's got to be, you know, she's going to make you do really vulnerable things.
Damn her. I did meet her once.
She spoke at my wife's school, funny enough, and I was totally fawning over her. So I feel you.
As well you should. As well you should.
I'm curious about, so in terms of, so the guy, a lot of guys listening to this, I'll bet the typical man listening to this, he might not be all excited about the idea of a cold approaching in a bar. He's probably working a lot.
He works 40, 50, 60 hours a week in a very logical analytical job. And he's not really looking to hit the bars.
So for that guy, am I hearing that your advice might be, and maybe he doesn't have any new recent hobbies that he's excited about. He doesn't know what kind of environments to go seek out.
What advice would you offer for a man like that? Well, if he only has nights, okay, and then finding events and activities is tough, you can even think of nightlife within, there's cultures within nightlife, right? So you can go to more of a video game bar, a speakeasy, more of a quiet sit down kind of cocktail place that encourages conversation. And it'll feel wildly different than a typical bar.
So of course they can do their event research for at night, but also nightlife gets boxed into, I think most, especially introverted nerdy guys are just like, oh my God, a lot of thumping clubs, everyone's drunk, it's a sports bar, whatever. No, there's so much different, right? Like there's a Miracle of Science bar in Cambridge where Harvard is, and it's mostly

Harvard graduates and MIT graduates. And it's very low key and everybody's chilling and talking.

And there's another place called Saloon, and it's a speakeasy downstairs where conversation is the

point. And it feels wildly different.
And then you don't have to think about finding an event,

booking it, signing up for it. You can show up, and I think it feels a lot more accessible.
Yeah. There's also a resource that I've used in the past.
It's been a while. Have you ever heard of guestofaguest.com? No.
Check it out, guys. Guestofaguest.com, not a sponsor.
I just had a good experience with them. It is a resource to find social events parties openings you get on a mailing list and you find out about uh you know new art gallery is opening here's our kickoff event or there's a we're having a special party here at this rooftop bar and you can get on a list and essentially get a ready-made environment from whole cloth so guest of a guest..com, not a sponsor, but guys, I'm open to it if you're listening.
And I did a guest of a guest event with a client, and the list gave us an instant invite to, it might be like 10 or 20 bucks a month. It's not crazy.
Anyway, so guest of a guest gave us an instant invite to some rooftop bar that was opening. And it was just so easy to go talk to people there, men and women, because we were all there for the same reason.
It was an instant environment, to your point, as opposed to here I am at a bar and now I'm going to go cold approach that stranger. So look for resources like that.
I love that. I think somebody, whoever's listening, there's meetup.com.
Yeah. Um, sometimes it can be hit or miss and sometimes it can be catered to an older demographic, unless you're going to like the 2030 singles.
I still think there's somewhere in the market. Somebody needs to create an app to do easy.
Hey, here's something going on around you. Here's the type of stuff.
Let me just click on it and show up. Uh, I don't know of much that's there.
I feel like Bumble tried it with their friends thing, but nobody's cracked the code. If somebody can have an easy app that gets people out without overthinking it, I think there's a huge market there.
What is your view on dating apps? Do you coach men on that? Do you advise them to focus on their environment and get off the apps? What's your thought on dating apps? My first take is always think of it as just one avenue. I rarely tell, unless somebody's like, I truly have no other time.
And if they are getting a lot of success there and they're like, I just already have plenty of dates and I don't need anything more, sure. But I think of it as just one supplemental avenue.
I still think you should work on learning to be sociable in person in some fashion for a multitude of reasons. But online dating is like black or white in the sense of it either works or it doesn't.
And I tell guys if you're going to invest in online dating, you have to do the things that work. You have to get better pictures.
You have to work at it. You know, I'm sure you feel it.
A million guys come to us and they're like, I've been using online dating for two years and I get nothing. And then their photos are horrible.
And I'm like, why would you spend six months beating your head against the wall? Spend three hours, get a photographer, get a friend, learn how to do it yourself and invest in making the most interesting version of yourself that you can present. That's when it's worth it.
Otherwise, I think it can be pretty brutal and pretty frustrating. I just tell guys to try their best.
Obviously, I give more advice than this, but realize that that's everyone's experience. I think almost everybody, male and female, is like, this is hard.
I have to spend a lot of time there's a lot of ghosting a lot of flaking all that stuff um so it's good you know i can't the numbers are whatever 50 of new relationships are from online yeah in that regard i think it's great but i have heard that gen z is starting to change and wanting to go back out more so that's nice well we're humans we've been doing We've been doing this for 100,000 years, just walking up to one another and being social. And it's only in the last 15 years that the Tinder era began and changed our behavior, but we're still the same basic animals, social animals.
Yeah, you're not going to change all that in 15 years. I think people think, well, that's weird nowadays.
Nobody talks to anyone. You're not going to change the way people respond for thousands of years, right? And there's a principle in psychology called the contrast principle.
You know, so many women are like, I rarely get a guy to normally approach me in a, you know, nice environment or a class or whatever and have a normal conversation. And the guy that does stands out.
And so this is probably controversial. I think theoretically online dating is harder than meeting people in person.
Like practically it feels harder, like mentally it feels harder to get over your anxiety and stuff. But once you do, like I think you can go out for a night to a couple of classes, have a lot of good conversations and meet some women when I know guys spend a month and sometimes they can't even get a date, right? Yeah.
Online. Well, I totally agree with you.
I'm such a fan of in real life dating. That's why I did a little big series about it last week.
And even though I met my girlfriend on a dating app, I'm pro dating apps, but I also don't want any guy to feel like he's ghettoized and has to be stuck in the ghetto of dating apps. And to your point, I think you're right.
I think a connection you make in person is going to mean so much more to that person, that woman, than the same woman if she matches with you on Tinder or Hinge. Because she's not going to go back to her girlfriends and say, hey, guess what? The 879th guy matched with me this week on Tinder.
I'm so excited. She's probably not even going to see that match.
But if you're that one guy who goes to the environment she's in, has a little something in common with her, and she can see and feel your in-person vibe, your present genuine self, oh my God, that's going to be so much more impactful to a woman like that. It's serendipity, right? I think every book and movie that is a romance geared towards women, it's always in person, right? There's like nothing about like, oh, my dream guy, we like texted for a while and then it happened.
Not since you've got mail anyway. Yeah.
And that was because email was fresh and was like this cool new thing, right? Now everyone's like, who wants to meet somebody on email? Yeah. So, yeah, it's amazing how much power that has.
And something that you said that I think is true is, listen, I'm never going to show, I'm always going to tell people the truth, okay? And online dating is harder for certain people, right? You're a shorter guy, I'm 5'8", the data's there, right? It doesn't mean it's impossible, but you have to try more yeah i just don't find those same limitations in person yeah you know whether it's height ethnicity uh income level background whatever because of eye contact vibe personality sense of humor all these things that are under your control or under your influence that a one second look at a photo boils you down to that you can't overcome. No, you're right.
There's a psychological concept that I agree with, this idea that we all have two sides of our mind. We have the logical intellectual side, and we have the more emotional side.
And that's true of men and women. And a woman might have her logical rules for, oh, five'10 minimum, this much money, this kind of look.
But then you meet her in person. You're 5'8.
You're not a millionaire, but you're funny. You're yourself.
You tease a little bit, but you're really genuine. You're a good listener, just good social skills.
You're going to be speaking to her emotional side. Then she'll bend her so-called logical rules and say, well, okay, he's not what I put on the dating apps, but man, I just love how I feel with him.
Yeah, I didn't know where you were going with the bend. And then she's going to bend her rules.
She doesn't bend until the third date. Oh, God.
Not in the middle of the improv class. No but absolutely you know it's um listen my biggest fear i had body issues like many guys um not only am i short but i looked like i was 12 you know and um i really thought that was going to be a big problem and maybe online dating when i didn't do much of it when i was younger but it just didn't appear appear that way in person.
You know, you overcome it. And I've talked about this a lot.
Some of the best guys I know with women, one of my friends is five foot three, another was five foot seven and bald by the time he was 22. And they've never had a problem dating beautiful women, taller women, whatever the case, you know.
Tell me more about that. This is a really interesting concept that I have not talked about here much maybe because i'm i'm taller i haven't really had to deal with that myself i've only had to deal with it through the guys i've helped um talk a little bit about good looking pardon you're like i'm tall and phenomenally good looking so yeah phenomenally uh as good looking as the lead singer of weezer is good looking.
Thank you. But talk a little bit about men who are of shorter stature, short guys, short kings, whatever the right term is.
What do they have to do to get some, give that understatured guy some hope and some health, if you would. What are your thoughts there? Yeah, going back to the contrast principle, I think whenever you subvert people's expectations, it's really interesting.
So somebody who's short may be either seen as maybe more timid and meek, or sometimes is like really overcompensating and trying to be the loudest, most dominating guy in the room. And I think if you can just be warm, outspoken, excited about people, curious, present, showing up with energy and enthusiasm, not to, like, again, dominate the conversation, but to share with people, then all of a sudden they're like, whoa, this guy's not what I thought.
I thought maybe he was going to be really awkward and quiet or maybe he's going to have Napoleon complex. and sometimes even being more forward, right? To have a strong moment, to say a strong opinion, to look her in the eyes and tell her that you find her beautiful in some way about her personality, to make a bold move appropriately.
Whenever you really surprise someone like that, I think it's very attractive. and so when I think about my friend who is 5'3 he is just he has a superman tattoo

and he really is. He's just like warm and he builds people up and he's so great to be around.

And I've told this before, maybe even on Tripp's podcast.

One time when I was dealing with my own insecurities, he wanted to start seeing a girl that I dated before and she was like 5'7". And I was great with it.

And so I talked to her and I was dealing with my own insecurities, he wanted to start seeing a girl that I dated before and she was like 5'7". And I was great with it.
And so I talked to her and I was like, hey, you know, my only question is like, aren't you a little like concerned that Eddie's so short? And she was like, oh, sorry, I dropped his name. Whatever.
And I was like, he's short? And she was like, and I was like, yeah, he's 5'3". And she was like, I guess I never really noticed he has such like a big personality.
And I think that's what it is. Have a big personality.
Be warm. Be comfortable in your own skin.
Be willing to lead, to be decisive, to speak your mind. Do the things that people don't expect of you.
And then I think you can actually become an asset. And something I haven't talked about actually is sometimes I felt it could be disarming.
In the sense like I had friends who would go out and be very like I have a friend who's six foot four and he's very intimidating and that can get you in the door but it can also be a lot and sometimes like you know nobody's really intimidated by me and sometimes I think like I don't get as rejected as much because they're like oh he seems sweet and nice I don't I don't want to be such a jerk to him, right? And then again, you show that you're an interesting person. I felt like I got in the door sometimes a little bit easier.
And then showing up in ways that they didn't expect really worked in my favor. So a 5'3", 5'4 guy, not only does he have hope, he can have real romantic success.
Yeah, I i mean i'd like to think i'm at this point quite good at being social and i think even my friend that i said is up there man how tall are you nick five eight okay five eight so i'm not crazy short but um no he's dated the most beautiful women i can imagine and like i said the other person I started my company with, one of my companies with, he was 5'7", bald, and 80 pounds overweight. And he didn't want to be in a relationship.
And I watched him date for 10 years the most stunning women I've ever seen. My old coach.
Oh, sorry. Finish your thought, please.
No, please, please. My old coach, 5'7", beard, big ginger beard, balding, big tummy for a lot of the time I was working with him.
But he knew how to channel his confidence and charisma in a way that he gave women that masculine yet connected feeling that they wanted. And women were just like, I don't care.
I don't care how tall you are, beard chubby man take me home there you go right and i've seen it too man um it's you know we it's like you you said we all want to believe we want one thing but then sometimes we just fall for something else you know we don't control it's the old adage of like attraction is not a choice it's a feeling yeah i write a column occasionally for the good men project and one of the questions i got was from a shorter guy who said hey connell should i should i have my legs broken and bones stretched in a leg lengthening procedure six months eight months very painful hundred grand and at the end of it he might get

two or three inches taller not counting the fact that he's got to take off work he's got would have

cages around his legs he and he might re-break his legs when he's shooting hoops in a year or two

all for a couple more inches that's what the height issue can can get it can get in guys

heads so much i mean i'm not gonna lie i thought about it too when i was younger i didn't actually

I'm not going to lie. I thought about it too.
When I was younger, I didn't actually, yeah, of course. Um, I mean, I was really insecure.
It was about my height, you know, I've always been the shortest person and, um, I've written about this and so I'll talk honestly. Um, I had to take growth hormone therapy when I was younger.
So like, to like, I'm fine,

and I ended up fine. But like, it was a big insecurity, like I was going to be short for the rest of my life.
I had to do this just to be quote unquote normal. And yeah, of course, you go down the internet rabbit hole.
But then like you said, you're like, oh, you can't really run or play much sports for the rest of your life. That doesn't sound so great.
Yeah, it's all to be tall. It's all to be tall.
And what is your view on how, oh, here's my view on how women decipher height, what it means to them. You're welcome to disagree or agree.
Maybe you see some nuance here. I'd love to hear your view.
My view is that height is a nice bonus for many women. It is not a requirement at all for most women.
Some, but not most. And essentially, what does a tall guy give a woman? Many women.
He gives her a sense of, oh, I'm with a, quote, tall, strong man. So much like our ancestors on the African savanna, I'll be safe with him.
I'll be safe. He's strong.
He's masculine. He's a man.
I'm a woman. She'll feel feminine.
She'll feel quote unquote smaller. And that's what height gives some women.
And then part two of that is a guy of any height can help a woman feel that, even if he's five foot five. There's different ways to make women feel safe to make her feel like you're the man.
And height is one way that some women feel, but it's absolutely optional. And there's other ways to make women feel the feels that they get from the, quote, tall guys they want to date.
That's my view. What are your thoughts? I mean, I fully agree.
I think, you know, we talked about before this, some of the modern male movement really boils, like, masculinity down to, like, got to be super jacked, got to like be rich and flaunt it. And that's like what is going to make a woman feel protected and provided for.
That's just not the case. You know, if you stand up for her, if you, you know, are there when she needs you most, if you can have your own boundaries, if you can remain an independent individual while in a relationship, if you have the courage to speak your mind and be decisive, so many other ways to show when you need me, I'll be there.
I think like height is the least of that. I mean, I know a million and a half women.
I think it's again, one of those things where at first you're like, this is what I want. This is what's going to make me feel like that.
And then I know endless women who are in relationships with tall guys or whatever, and they don't feel protected. They don't feel provided for.
They don't feel like, man, I can really rely on my partner when things go south. So yeah, maybe the novelty at first for some women, but I think very quickly people realize it's not what it's all meant to be.
In the same sense, I made a recent video about looks for men. I think you need to probably be physically attracted to somebody you're with at some level okay but even then guys will reject you know incredible women for them that are like really beautiful but not like the hottest women they could be with and then they finally achieve that or they try for it so much and sometimes they end up in a relationship with someone who's not so great for them i've never met a guy who's been in a relationship with a absolutely beautiful woman woman but that doesn't feel like fulfilled and is like or like feels like it's healthy yeah and it's like this is amazing i want to stay in it i'm so happy like the novelty wears off right yeah not saying that as a jealous short guy anything i promise i'm just saying like there's life, man.
You're going to look at that person's height for a little bit. But if you want to spend the next 30 years with them, you got to think about a lot more.
I think that the biggest problem that hurts men is not the lack of height or for me back in the day, lack of, I guess I felt like I was too nerdy, too nice. didn't like me i wasn't the outgoing alpha male shy nerdy ginger um some guys are in their head about their looks money it's not so much the thing that you actually that you think you lack it's the self-doubt it's how the insecurity about that self-doubt makes you slump your shoulders or it makes you stay home instead of go out to meet people or you finally get the courage up to go talk to that woman whether it's in the environment or a cold approach and you're so nervous about rejection that that's what actually gets you rejected not your actual height so i think i feel it's kind of it's a bit of a paradox here but it's the problem isn't your isn't your lack of height it's how your insecurity related to your lack of height brings you all the way down to what i call the lower self just a version of you who just feels like he's not enough and what woman wants to date a guy who feels like he's not enough it's uh you create a self-fulfilling prophecy yeah right um it's funny you said your little self my friend who's a therapist says like the small version of you, right?

And big version of you and small version of you and we all got it.

And it's funny, you know, you see this pattern in everything.

I'm too short.

I don't drink.

That's going to be weird.

I wear glasses or whatever.

But then you can look at a ton of guys around you that have those same things and are successful.

So that's how you know it's not true.

It is all the projection as you're saying.

100%.

Thank you. look at a ton of guys around you that have those same things and are successful.
So that's how you know it's not true.

It is all the projection, as you're saying.

100%. One last little tip, not tip, moment of hope for guys who are on the shorter side.

My girlfriend, Jess, briefly dated a guy who was 5'4", 5'5".

She had no problem with it.

My now ex-girlfriend, Donna, dated a little person, like five four five five she had no problem with it my ex my now ex-girlfriend donna dated a little person like four four nine four ten she had no issue with it and yeah so don't break your legs guys please please don't and a good experiment for guys in big cities like new york go spend two hours with headphones walk around yeah and see how many women you find incredibly beautiful to be with guys that are shorter. Right.
Or that have the insecurities that you doubt about yourself. And you'll be like, oh, wow, it's everywhere.
Yeah. Or even women for whom height is their deal breaker, usually it's not a certain inch height on the measuring stick.

It's just, oh, I just want him to be as tall as me.

And the average woman is like, what, 5'4", 5'5",

is the average height of a woman.

So even women for whom height is a deal breaker,

which is not the majority, I would say it's a minority,

it's not even about hitting a number.

It's about, oh, I just want him taller than me.

And so if you're 5'5", 5'4", 5'6",

that still brings so many women. Hell, 5'3", five three five four brings so many women into the mix for you yeah and there's like platform boots that give you two inches right i'm just kidding but totally uh just a few more things here i thought we'd get a little silly at the end or get a little bit more out there uh since you got into this world right around the same time I did back in the

double zeros, right?

That's when you first started like working.

Oh, seven.

Same, same here, roughly almost the exact same time.

I asked somebody else recently this question.

I thought it was a fun question.

Is there any old school piece of quote,

pickup advice,

a tactic that you learned that actually frankly had, has more than a sliver of truth to it. And that works even if the overall approach is toxic.
The one I've mentioned here many times, I'm still a fan of it. I love the old school push-pull.
I think I was talking to Haley about this, which is a tease combined with a compliment. That's actually authentic to me.
I'm a smartass, and I'm also a playful person.

So it's not so much a nag as it is like,

I like to tease a girl, but then give her a compliment.

And I find that the old school push-pull can work really well.

Actually, on my first date with my now girlfriend, Jess,

I even said to her, a total old school, literally copy-paste line. Use this if you want, gents, no pressure.
But I said, you're either the coolest girl I've met in a long time or the weirdest. I'm just not sure which.
And she just lit up. She still talks about that, even though she now knows it was a move.
Anyway, so that really worked well with my girlfriend, Jess. That's one that is granted old school PUA stuff, but I still see value in it, even if it can be used in a sleazy way by others.
Anyway, any examples from your pickup pass where you think, you know what? There's some badass stuff there. Yeah, well, I just want to say what you're talking about is intention, right? If your intention is to share joy and be playful together and bring closeness, then it's great.
As a fellow Bostonian, well, smart ass from Boston, I'm with you, man. Like that's part of our humor.
I just spent, you know, a party with friends and it was like four hours of them just roasting each other, you know? Yeah. And that's the way it is.
For me, yeah, this is going to sound really simple, but somebody once said attraction equals comfort plus sexuality. And I don't think it's that simple, but I think that's what a lot of guys don't understand is like if we wanted to boil men into like simple camps, right? There's a nice guy who is just very comfortable and very open and talks to you, but he never expresses his intentions and never has any level of sexuality.
And a woman can't imagine being intimate with him. Then on the opposite end, there's a guy who has no comfort, but is very sexual.
And sometimes, unfortunately, women will still sleep with them because they're fulfilling a need that is important in an intimate connection. And I think if you can be somebody who truly cares about the person, wants to get to know them, wants to make them feel good, but then is saying, like, I think sexuality is beautiful.

I want to explore that with you. I want to express that with you.
That is, like, the gold. And that's kind of the mission I've been behind the last few years.
I feel like, you know, we've lost the idea of healthy sexuality. it almost feels like because there's so much toxic sexuality

and like advice of just there,

that it's almost like we're a valedictorian era again. Like there's so much shame around sexuality again and expression around it and embracing it.
And I'd like to find a way to bring that back in a way that is like still – I say it's an invitation to explore intimacy together rather than I'm a guy trying to impose having sex with you.

Right.

When you see it as a mutually beneficial, beautiful thing, then it's great. So comfort plus embracing your sexuality I think is a good foundation for building an intimate connection with someone.
Yeah, very universal. Very useful and universal.
Okay, next question. if they were going to launch the nick notice dating reality show yeah what would the format of your show be that would allow you to showcase your coaching principles and make it a good reality show while you think for a second because i'm just throwing this at you right now here's mine the connell barrett dating show would be it would probably be a lot like whose line is it anyway there'd be improv there'd be fun playful improv games and improv scenes and because when you do improv you even though you're doing a character you're creating a funny fun scene from nothing you have to put your authentic self in it you really have to be real but also be playful and playful.
And that's really good in improv, but also dating. So the Conal Barrett reality show would have an improv element.
What about the Nick Notice dating reality show? Yeah, I love improv. And also, by the way, I'll tell you for your coaching, I'm sure you know, for retreats, doing improv and role-playing games has been some of the most successful learning experiences for for guys so i think that would be a cool show and very educational um for me i i don't know what the outcome or the gamifying it would be but it would be really cool to have men and women and people of all genders sit in a room and like talk about what they really want what they find desirable to clear out misunderstandings i I don't know.
There's not really a good show or something where you have people coming together vulnerably and being like, well, I feel sexual in this way and it makes me feel like a predator. Well, I don't automatically think like that.
Somehow we'd have to make it more fun. I'm a little too serious sometimes.
But I think we need to have more open discourse between people of the opposite sex and not just the opposite sex but uh talking about what they find attractive what not what their fears are and if they help each other understand then i think everybody wins right because that's the biggest thing is like i am a little bit more lucky in the sense of i did have a couple of female friends growing up and but most of the guys i talked to, and you do, a lot of them don't have true female friends, and they really don't understand women at all, fundamentally. And I think vice versa.
I talk to a lot of women, and they think men are just sometimes purely pigs or sexual, or they've heard the worst stories of them. And yeah, bringing people together to understand each other in a room would be cool.
I love it. I'll tune in for sure.
A couple more quick ones. I'm a big movie fan.
I do a little rom-com episode every now and then where I break down rom-coms, but I talk about movies a lot. Do you have a favorite couple movies, like your Desert Island movies? For romance-oriented? No, no.
Sorry. Just any movie.
Your favorite movies of all time. Two or three of them? Oh, my God.
I'm going to'm gonna go romance i've said this before but have you watched the before trilogy from richard linklater before sunset before sunrise oh i know of them i actually never seen one oh my god man great and great for you an actual representation of a really interesting courtship dynamic okay all right um recently good movies god man you're I don't watch movies anymore. Not a movie guy? I used to be my entire life, anything from the 90s, 2000s, and 2010s.
But as of lately, let's go with Fight Club. I got nothing else on my mind.
Masculine men trying to find their way in the world. I think it's a good representation of men struggling and probably an unhealthy outlet so that resonated if Edward Norton from that movie, his character from that movie came to you asking you for some dating help what advice would you give Edward Norton from Fight Club? oh my god besides wear a mouthpiece Besides wear a mouthpiece.
Besides wear a mouthpiece. Care about the person in front of you.
It seemed like his relationship with that person, she was very unhealthy, and they were both very toxic. I think if they talked more and instead of, I mean, productively communicate more.
Mostly what I remember is they would fight and then hook up and sleep together.

Find a middle ground, man.

Have a good date night.

Talk things out.

Understand why she's so tense, why you're so tense.

Love it.

TV is my jam, man.

TV.

I'm going to go on a tangent that TV is where it's at for the last few years.

Hit me.

I'm a TV nerd as well.

What are you super into?

What should everybody watch or everybody should check out at least an episode of? Everybody watch severance oh i've never seen it all right yeah oh my god man incredible incredible okay severance yeah i just i just did the jackal oh worth it really good yeah okay eddie redmayne i never knew sort of okay and i never got into eddie redne. I never really just saw enough.
He's such a specific energy, but it's actually just right for this very specific role. And it sucked me right in.
I love it, man. I've been binging.
I watched every James Bond movie ever made over the last month. Really? Nice.
I wonder who they're going to pick, man. I mean man i mean there's all this like controversy about the character in itself but i'm like whatever it's a character it's probably not a great representation of a character but it's good fun yeah it's they're gonna pick some handsome white british dude i assume uh but just fine that might be good i i wouldn't mind they go a different way like there was talk about Idris Elba for a while.
I remember that. There was talk about a female James Bond, which in the very last movie, the final one with Daniel Craig, there's actually an actress who's in the Jackal.
She plays the Jackal protagonist trying to catch Eddie Redmayne. She plays 007, who has replaced a retired James Bond in the last movie.
So anyway, they did it in the movie a little bit, but they're not going to commit to a hole. I would love it.
I want them to commit to where she's like amazing at picking up women too. That would be really subversive, like totally a player.
That would be great. Yeah.
Watching the woman 007 picking up ladies. Oh my God.
I would, I would be the first one. I'll be the first one in line.
Before we roll, I want to talk a little bit about the kind of in-person retreats you do. I know you don't have anything coming up for a little while, probably because it's freaking cold as hell in Boston.
But I know later this year and you consistently do these in-person seminars or that might not be the right term for it. Talk about the retreats if you would.
Yeah. So generally what we're going to do is we're going to choose a beautiful location, whether like I said, that's in Spain or in Portugal or something like that, usually nicer weather, San Diego.
We rent out a mansion or some kind of villa. We get 10 guys or so to live together for five days.
Every day I'm teaching everything that we talk about here,

confidence, flirting, social skills.

And then we're usually going out once or twice a day

during the day and during the evening together

to socialize and practice that.

So it's very, very, we're doing a lot of theory in there.

But like you said, I realized every retreat that went on,

it was like 90-10 theory to role play. And then it's just become a lot more role play, a lot more practice, and then going out and doing it.
And I think it's great. You know, the biggest takeaway is obviously you get to meet a lot of women, you improve your skills there, which is what I think guys come in for.
But mostly whenever I do exit interviews, everyone's like, the friendships I made, the people I got to hang out with, and seeing that they still hang out years later is really amazing. That sounds great.
I wish I could go back in time as the younger, shy, struggling Connell and take your coaching now. I wish I could time travel.
That sounds like a mansion, five, six days in San Diego and Spain talking to women oh my god and the theory i always love the theory too that sounds really cocky by the way i'll mention i don't care about the glitzy stuff like that there's just not a good place i don't like booking a hotel with 10 different rooms i think there's something about finding a place that can house everybody to live together that makes it really unique fantastic uh we mentioned your website is nicknotice.com.

In terms of besides your website,

is there any place else you think the listeners should go

if they want to work with you

or just take in more of your insights that you share?

Yeah, if you don't like to read as much,

YouTube, I've got like 700 videos on there.

So just type in Nick Notice and by playlist, I've got in-depth videos on basically everything you can imagine. Fantastic.
So just type Nick Notice on YouTube. Yeah.
Right. That's Nick and that's N-O-T-A-S.
And there will be links in the show notes, of course, for all of this. Nick, any parting shots other than Connell? You've got to go watch Severance.
No, just, I mean, yes. The biggest thing is to connect as human.
And anybody who's listening who doubts themselves for any reason, there's no reason to. You can learn it.
It's not that hard. Most of your guys, like mine, are engineers who've got master's degrees.
And I tell them, it is infinitely harder to learn things that you've done for your career than it is in my mind to do this. It's just about going out and finding small steps to actually go out and try it.
So if that's what I can say, I've never met a guy who's done that and not grown and seen success in his life. Ditto.
You are more than enough. You have so much to offer.
I know because I used to think I didn't and I learned that I do. And I know you felt that way too, to an extent.
Nick Notice, thanks for being here, man. This was a blast.
This was my pleasure, man. Anytime.
Cool. All right.
How about tomorrow? Yeah, let's do it again. Fine, fine.
Thank you for listening. I know you have a million podcasts you could be listening to and you just listened to Connell and Nick for an hour.
That's badass. Thank you for your time.
Don't just make this a podcast you listen to. Go take action.
Apply this. My old coach used to say, Connell, for every hour of content you consume, you should go out and take an hour of in real life action.
So whatever your version of that is, go out there and take action. Be courageous.
Be authentic. Take some risks.
And don't forget

your dream girlfriend. She is out there and she is going to love you, but she's going to have to

meet that best authentic you. So go out there.
Carpe datum. Seize the date.
Till next time.