You’re Missing Her Signals! Dating Expert Talia Koren on How to Tell When a Woman Likes You

Speaker 1 how you show up after a first date is really, really important, way more than how you show up on the first date.

Speaker 2 All right, welcome back to the How to Get a Girlfriend podcast. I'm your host, dating coach, Connell Barrett.

Speaker 2 I'm the real life hitch if hitch was a skinny, nerdy ginger who has never slapped Chris Rock.

Speaker 2 I like to help guys date with confidence, make real connections with women and do it by being authentic, no sketchy pickup artist moves needed.

Speaker 2 And today I'm always excited to talk to a fellow dating expert and I love talking to women who either have dated, are dating, or in the case of my guest today, have gone through the gauntlet of dating and have found somebody wonderful because women know so much about what women want.

Speaker 2 I'm thrilled to welcome Talia Coren to the podcast. She hosts the Dating Intentionally podcast, which is a really great podcast.
Go check it out on Spotify or wherever you get your pods.

Speaker 2 And Talia shares very insightful, no-nonsense advice to help people like you navigate the complexities of the dating world, to not overthink, to have some fun, have some success, and look at dating as an experiment, which I want to talk with her about.

Speaker 2 She also has a really, really great,

Speaker 2 some great yarns to share about going on 64 first dates in under a year. So we're going to get into that.
Talia, welcome to the How to Get a Girlfriend podcast.

Speaker 1 I'm so excited to be here. And thank you for that lovely introduction.
I'm excited to get into it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we were just talking before I hit record, and you said, Oh, I just want to help people not think so much and underthink and have more fun.

Speaker 2 So, I'm going to try to take that advice on this podcast. I'm going to get rid of all my 84 questions I planned for you.

Speaker 2 Read them all.

Speaker 2 Actually, no joke, I used to go on first dates back in the day when I was really bad at this, and I had

Speaker 2 pieces of eight and a half half by 11 paper with all these like lines and stories and things to say. I would go into the men's room in the middle of a break from the date and look at stuff.

Speaker 1 Oh my gosh. It's reminding me of my grandpa who like literally had flashcards with jokes in his wallet.

Speaker 1 Do you remember? Do you remember?

Speaker 1 No, they're all like the typical like jokes you would get. Just open any joke book and it's like the most obvious thing you've heard a million times.

Speaker 2 Grandpa jokes.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Nice. That's that's what it was.
I mean, look, if that's where everyone has to start somewhere, right? If that's where you're starting, look at where you are now. I mean, it's okay.

Speaker 2 Okay. So 64 first dates.
This is the one planned question. Nothing else will be planned.
You have my word. This is my one planned, or at least planned topic.

Speaker 2 The 64 first dates, I like to look at extremes. Do you remember what was the, what was the

Speaker 2 ESPN highlight moment, the best first date you had? And if you don't say your husband, you're probably going to be in trouble.

Speaker 1 Look, I can't say it was my husband, but I think that's kind of the point. And look, on my podcast, I usually talk to women.

Speaker 1 And I think the advice does differ here where it's like, sometimes you don't immediately feel the spark or it's just kind of an first date, but that doesn't mean that it's not going to go somewhere.

Speaker 1 But in terms of if we're just looking at first dates, my favorite first date was with someone I only had that one date with, but he basically planned.

Speaker 1 to pick up a bunch of pastries at a cafe he loved and we had a little picnic where we tried all of the pastries And it was just so easy and cute. And like, it was a nice day.
He, it was his idea.

Speaker 1 And we just got to like talk about the pastries and try different ones. And it was very relaxed.
I loved it.

Speaker 2 That's great. You can't go wrong with pastries.

Speaker 1 Oh, it was a great idea. I think you should steal it if you're listening and you can eat gluten and you like pastry.

Speaker 1 Did he,

Speaker 2 were you two talking about pastries leading up to the date or was it something that you just

Speaker 1 no we were talking about cafes in Seattle, I think. And he wanted to introduce me to his favorite one.
What I loved about dating in Seattle was I'm not from there, I'm from New York.

Speaker 1 And so dating helped me explore the city more. That was really why I wanted to date.
It was part of my social hygiene. It was part of my, like, just how do I get to know the city better?

Speaker 1 So a lot of guys introduced me to great places that I fell in love with. Even if it didn't go anywhere, I learned some new great recommendations.

Speaker 2 What was the best pastry you had on that date?

Speaker 1 Oh, I don't remember. But I mean, I love just a plain croissant.
I don't know. I'm like, I like the classics, like vanilla ice cream, plain croissant.
You really can't go wrong.

Speaker 1 You have to appreciate the simplicity.

Speaker 2 I went to Paris this last summer with my girlfriend, Jess, and we took a croissant making class. It takes so long to make a croissant.

Speaker 2 Like, it's like a four, five, six-hour process if you do it from scratch.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Doesn't it make you appreciate it more? Yes.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Every time I see a croissant, I now think that's so much much fucking work. And I also think, oh, my girlfriend and I did that together.

Speaker 2 So I feel very cuddly and warm about it, but also like, damn, I don't want to put that much effort into baking.

Speaker 1 Paris, so romantic. That sounds amazing.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. It was sort of an anniversary trip that we took.
Oh, nice. And

Speaker 2 I took up baking for New Year's. I'm now baking for her almost every Saturday.

Speaker 1 That's so sweet. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Did you make any, have you made or abandoned any New Year's resolutions so far?

Speaker 1 Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 I don't, no, I'm not a resolution girl. I'm a mantra person.
So I every year have like a little mantra to keep in mind. And this year's mantra is very simple.
It's what if I can? Question mark. Okay.

Speaker 1 What if I can do that? What if I can do the thing I am wanting to do? And that's a very, been a very powerful, even at the gym, I'm like adding on weights to like my squat. I'm like, what if I can?

Speaker 1 What if I can't just do this extra five, 10 pounds? And it really gets me through.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.
It's optimistic. It's, it's hopeful.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So that's my resolution this year.

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 wish that I, back in the day in my dating struggles, which you know a little bit about, you've been nice enough to check out a couple episodes of this here pod.

Speaker 2 I used to think, well, what if the sky falls when I go up to that woman? Or what if on that first date she thinks I'm

Speaker 2 lame or boring? But what if it's not?

Speaker 1 But I think it's so easy. Pardon? Go ahead.

Speaker 1 Yeah, what if it works out? You got to flip it. I think it's okay to have those thoughts.
Like, I think

Speaker 1 it's fine to go into things being like, well, what if it fails?

Speaker 2 but then you have to get into the practice of like let's flip it let's just for every what if it fails do the counter what if it works though yeah yeah what if right what if she likes me yeah what if i make her laugh what if it goes great exactly what if you get married right or what if it's a disaster but you have a hilarious story yeah which i'm sure you have some uh any good any good disaster stories or just Boy, that guy was weird stories from your 64.

Speaker 1 For sure.

Speaker 1 So my worst first date in contrast see okay the the best one i described was like short and sweet i love a short first date and that's usually what i recommend to people for the first date keep it like more like a vibe check it shouldn't be longer than like an hour i mean you can always extend it but go into it being like this will be an hour if yeah

Speaker 1 the worst first date i went on was a dinner first date and this was someone i had a phone call with before like we had a screening call so we chatted for like 45 minutes before we had our first date and then he took me to a restaurant he wanted to get drinks appetizers dinner dessert the whole thing i broke my own rule and said yes to this and he didn't ask me one question no he asked me one question when we had drinks and didn't ask me another question not only did he not ask me another question every time i asked him a question he would start taking a bite of food and i had to try i had to it was so awkward i had to start trying to time my questions around his eating because but it's still like he would i would be like so like do you have any siblings whatever and then he's like eat and then it's just like hanging in the air it was so awkward It was the most exhausting.

Speaker 1 Hold on.

Speaker 2 Let me finish chewing this hot dog before I ask you my next question.

Speaker 1 Sure.

Speaker 1 And then at the end of the date, we were sharing dessert. Like, I was so ready to go.
I'm like, God damn, he wants dessert. We're sharing these like churros.
And I, and there's like a little left.

Speaker 1 We had a whole dinner drinks. I'm not going to, I was full.
And he's like, are you going to finish that? I'm like, no, no, like, I'm good. And he started doing that food pushing thing on me.

Speaker 1 And I hate that. Like,

Speaker 1 oh, don't waste it. I'm like, I'm good.
Like, I'm not hungry anymore. Why don't you, why don't you eat it?

Speaker 1 And it was the worst. And he had the audacity to like ask me out again.
And I was like, how are we on the same date?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I feel like there's a

Speaker 2 there's these two extremes men tend to fall into these two extreme polarities of of asking only questions getting you know being interrogated like you're in the back room of the NYPD

Speaker 2 or in this case, this guy just, was he talking at you? Was he talking about himself? Was he talking about

Speaker 2 how his food was tasting? What was he talking about?

Speaker 1 He was barely talking. He would answer the question very succinctly and not even be like, what about you? So I would just pick it up as if he did ask me that and just start sharing my answer.

Speaker 1 I'm a pretty good conversationalist. I can pretty much talk to anyone and

Speaker 1 I can feel comfortable pretty much talking to anyone. But sometimes it is a struggle.
And it wasn't fun.

Speaker 1 Like, I think my whole thing with dating is I want it to be fun, even if it doesn't go anywhere. I think with women, we put a lot of pressure on ourselves.

Speaker 1 we have our biological clock you know there's a lot of like pressure to make sure it goes somewhere but i figured out that if i just focus on being in the moment having fun i don't have to worry about that as much and i can still just enjoy my time great what's your blueprint for fun what's fun for talia on a date back when you were single yeah i mean even now with my husband it is i think really

Speaker 1 Talking about things I like talking about and also finding the common threads that we both like talking about is the fun part.

Speaker 1 Also just being in the environment, being in the moment, noticing what's going on around you, talking about that. I think

Speaker 1 dating is not fun when you go into that interview mode, when you're trying to figure out, okay, what's not going to work about this? Where is the thing? Where's the red flag? Where's the deal breaker?

Speaker 1 Like, it's the search for what's wrong with us. How are we, you know, when it could just be, what are we going to bond over? What's that, what's a weird thing that most people wouldn't know about you?

Speaker 1 Like,

Speaker 1 that's what makes it fun for me.

Speaker 2 Common things you're both interested in.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And even with my husband now, like, I'm going to on our dates and we still date.

Speaker 1 You know, we're married. We still date.
I'm going to bring up things like Star Trek and things like

Speaker 1 things that he's interested in because I want to make sure he's having a good time too. And I like, you know, I want to make sure we're connecting on things.

Speaker 1 We don't have to just have these deep conversations about our relationship all the time, which is a trap I think a lot of couples fall into.

Speaker 2 Talking about the relationship

Speaker 1 And the future. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I think that I'm,

Speaker 2 my girlfriend and I haven't fallen into that trap yet. I don't think we will.

Speaker 2 But what I remember about when I first met Jess, to your point, of

Speaker 2 topics that the other person is interested in, that's really important. Empathy.
And a calibration to, okay, what are they going to enjoy talking about as much as me? And

Speaker 2 I let it out somehow. I'm a huge Beatles nerd.
Like I know every Beatles song. Oh my by heart, pretty much.
And I remember Jess was texting me.

Speaker 2 We were two or three dates in, still very much courting, but really liking each other. And we had really good banter.
And I remember she would just send me these little Paul McCartney updates.

Speaker 1 She's like, hey, look,

Speaker 2 Paul's touring. Are you going to see him this year? Or, oh, there was a Netflix special for Paul and I.
And as a dating coach, I knew what she was probably doing with some intentionality.

Speaker 2 Not that that didn't hurt it at all. I found it

Speaker 2 extra heartening because I could see that she was really putting in that effort to make it about things that I cared about. And I certainly tried to return the favor.

Speaker 1 That's one of the, I think, most underrated ways to show interest in someone is by showing interest in their interests.

Speaker 1 And I think that it's a really great way for anyone listening to show interest in someone without going over the top.

Speaker 1 It's so such a warm, fuzzy feeling.

Speaker 1 When I bet you felt amazing when she was bringing these things to you about Paul McCartney and the Beatles because you're like, wow, she listens to me and she's like engaging with me.

Speaker 1 This is a bid for affection right now.

Speaker 2 No, it made my day.

Speaker 2 And I certainly tried my best to do the same. So I try to take my own advice when I'm single and dating, which has been, it's been a while now.

Speaker 2 But one of the, to your point about topics, and maybe to an extension, that would be the tone, the vibe of a good feeling first date. I tell my guys, tell me what you think about this.

Speaker 2 Maybe you have your own tip on this for women. I'm curious how you

Speaker 2 guide and instruct women. But I tell my guys, imagine there's a little director in your head.
There's a little Martin Scorsese. There's a little Steven Spielberg up in your brain watching the date.

Speaker 2 And if it's a good topic, if it's a good vibe, just keep, let it roll. Don't get in the way.
And if you notice, oh, we've been talking about politics for 10 minutes.

Speaker 2 Or I've been droning on about Bitcoin. for an hour, maybe it's time to go cut.
Let's change the scene.

Speaker 1 What do you think about that? Yes, I think having the awareness is really important. It's a tricky balance, right?

Speaker 1 Having the awareness of like both being present in the date, what you're talking about, and also realizing, oh, we've been talking about Bitcoin for 30 minutes or whatever, then it's probably time to switch it up, ask a question about them

Speaker 1 or bring up something you are really excited to talk about. That's something different.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I agree. I mean, when

Speaker 1 I had my first date with my husband, you know, we talked a lot about his work and my work. And we both, you know, and I published a book.
He had a, he has a PhD.

Speaker 1 Like, we were kind of like comparing notes on like the things we've done. And, um, but I, that's like all I remember about our first date.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 Like when we had our first date, I literally thought I would never hear from him again.

Speaker 2 Why? Why'd you think that?

Speaker 1 I don't know. I think

Speaker 1 we had, it was a digital, it was a virtual first date. So it was like, like how we're talking right now.
It was literally on a computer like this. And

Speaker 1 he was moving to Seattle from the Bay Area.

Speaker 1 And I just had this image in my head of him like just lining up a bunch of virtual first dates, like just kind of to like dip his toe in the water to see what's going on in the dating pool out here.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, I'm never going to hear. I just had that feeling, but he was very persistent.

Speaker 2 How so? How did he show that persistence?

Speaker 1 And yeah, I love talking about this. I think it's a great example for guys because he was

Speaker 1 we texted after. I think how you show up after a first date is really, really important, way more than how you show up on the first date.
So we were texting after.

Speaker 1 He didn't text me every day, but he did, like,

Speaker 1 he did text me every few days. And I was like, oh, I guess I, I guess he's still interested.
I was just kind of surprised. And I was rolling with it.
I wasn't sure.

Speaker 1 I was like, I don't know if I like this person yet, but he's persistent. I didn't see any red flags.
So let's keep going.

Speaker 1 And then he kept asking me on these phone call dates until he eventually moved. It was like a month of that.
And I just really appreciated his confident persistence.

Speaker 1 He didn't, he didn't try to move things forward too quickly. He didn't bring up sex, which was like think huge green flag, huge.

Speaker 1 And he just kept asking to spend time with me, which was awesome.

Speaker 2 Okay. You probably already answered this question, but I can hear my listeners saying, Connell, go back.
She said something I must know about. more about.

Speaker 2 You just said that how a guy follows up after a first date is more important than the date itself, the first date itself.

Speaker 1 Yep. Women are really.

Speaker 2 This is your TED talk or I want to hear it right now.

Speaker 2 Give me your close notes.

Speaker 1 So here's the thing. I think anyone can do the first date song and dance.
You know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 1 It's like you show up and you're charming and you can ask questions and you have your story about yourself and all that, all those things. You can be like, oh, this is so fun.

Speaker 1 I can't wait to see you again or whatever. Okay, then women want to see follow through on that.
So if you're ending a date and you say, this is great, let's do it again.

Speaker 1 You need to follow through on that and you need to send a text within, ideally within like an hour after the date, up to 24 hours is fine that says like hey that was great let's do it again

Speaker 1 that's it that's the text okay devil's advocate but but isn't that needy isn't that trying too hard no conno that that makes you stand out in a dating culture that's full of flakiness people but i don't want to be thirsty talia no you got to be thirsty i say this to women too I say this to women too.

Speaker 1 This is my whole thing. If you're interested, show interest.
Like you need to get over it. You need to get over that.
And I'm over here. Look, guys, like I'm in your corner.

Speaker 1 I'm over here telling women to do the same thing. Okay.
This isn't like only men need to do this. Everyone needs to do this.
Yeah. Everyone does.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 That's fantastic. Absolutely.
So, so some tips here for the post-first date. Really, the real work starts after a really good first date.
Yeah. The important work.
So follow up within 24 hours.

Speaker 2 Don't be afraid to send that text within minutes or an hour of the date.

Speaker 1 It's awesome. It's so attractive when you do that.
It's, it, it's really a huge turn on. And if, okay, I also want you guys to know, like,

Speaker 1 if if they, if she likes you back, um, it's not going to affect anything.

Speaker 1 And if she doesn't like you back, it's also not going to affect anything.

Speaker 1 So it's like, if she, if she walks away from the date being like, I hope you asked me again, she's not going to be turned off by this.

Speaker 1 And if she walks away being like, I don't think that was the right guy for me,

Speaker 1 like, it's not going to really change the outcome of her feelings anyway. So you might as well show interest when you're interested.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think that's a great, that's a great tip.

Speaker 2 You struggle with dating, right? Sure, you have a good job and cool friends, but you just aren't sure how to flirt, the apps don't work for you, and sometimes women put you in the friend zone.

Speaker 2 It's frustrating. Hey, I struggled with dating too.
As an introvert and a total nerd, I didn't just live in the friend zone. I owned real estate there.
But I escaped.

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Speaker 2 And radical authenticity is why Psychology Today called me the best dating coach in America. And now I want to personally help you attract your dream girlfriend.

Speaker 2 So go to datingtransformation.com and book a free call with me. On our call, I'll tell you how my one-on-one coaching will help you find your dream girlfriend.

Speaker 2 And you'll be doing it by flirting with confidence and authenticity. No creepy pickup tricks needed.

Speaker 2 So go to datingtransformation.com, book a free call today, and let my personalized coaching help you get a great girlfriend. I think that

Speaker 2 the sticking point for guys is, well, I don't want to be come off as needy. I don't want to come off as too try hard.
And what I say to them is, I say, don't worry about how much you text.

Speaker 2 Worry about that your texts are at least trying to make her smile. They're trying to give her something.
They're trying to extend the date in a sense. You're not asking for anything.

Speaker 2 You're not sending her 12 dick pics.

Speaker 1 None of that.

Speaker 2 You're just extending the good vibes and making her smile.

Speaker 2 And if you're giving her something that she values within reason, assuming it's relatively 50-50, 60-40 back and forth, you can text as much as you want.

Speaker 1 I agree. I think the most important thing, though,

Speaker 1 in addition to what you're saying is get that next date on the calendar. No one wants a pen pal.

Speaker 1 I think men and women both do this where we're texting a lot and no one's like making the move to be like, so when's our next date?

Speaker 1 And I do think women want the guy to do that, which i find very annoying but like i i'm i don't like the general aspect of dating but i will accept that most women out there who are dating men do want the guy to extend that follow-up invitation for a date two if there's interest

Speaker 2 okay so let's go back to the first in real life date you let's go to your first in real life date with your now husband who i understand is a ginger who i've on hinge

Speaker 2 oh on hinge okay great yeah and so he followed up after that video video date. And then was the in-real life date next?

Speaker 1 No, we had, so we had four virtual

Speaker 1 dates, basically, because he was a month out of his move. And I would not have pursued anything with him if he didn't already have a job and an apartment in my location, right?

Speaker 1 It wasn't like he was exploring. He literally was moving.
He just, a lot of people do this. You're about to move.
You get on the apps in the city you're moving to to check it out.

Speaker 1 A lot of, I did that. It's normal.

Speaker 1 And he good on him for like actually making time with me, even though it was virtual. So he moved.
We, I, I planned our first date because he was new to the city.

Speaker 1 I had already been there for three years or two years. And we met up at a brewery near my place.

Speaker 1 And if you're listening in Seattle, it's a Fremont Brewery, which is amazing. Great date spot.
And we had a beer. Then we took a walk.
There's like a park nearby. And then we got Boba after.

Speaker 1 Like, I wanted to extend the date because I. was having a good time talking to him.
He made me feel comfortable and safe.

Speaker 1 He didn't go for a kiss, even though I knew, I think there was a moment where I'm like, oh, he's going to try and kiss me. And I'm so glad he didn't because I wasn't comfortable yet.

Speaker 1 Like, it takes me a while to warm up

Speaker 1 always.

Speaker 1 So, like, I'm really glad he kind of read the room. He's just really good at reading the room.
Nice. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So it's just noticing your body language, the overall vibe, and sensing, okay, now is the time, or now, now is not the time.

Speaker 1 Yes. Yeah.
But I think he was, he

Speaker 1 understood that I was exciting the date and that was me showing interest, right? Like, I was like, oh, let's, like, I was like, okay, let's want to go do this. Like, want to go for a walk.

Speaker 1 I'll show you this park. And I think it's like, you don't always need the kiss to show you're interested, you know?

Speaker 1 Like, there are other ways to be like, hey, I'm enjoying this or I'm enjoying your company.

Speaker 2 Fantastic. And

Speaker 2 not to literally make you kiss and tell, but when was the first kiss? Was it the second in real life date?

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
So he followed up for a date too. He took me to a Tapas place.
Toppas is a great, I would say, second or third date because you can really get a, you can get like have a menu planned.

Speaker 1 It's not always fun, like when you like have a menu and you're like trying to figure out what to order. And you can really learn about a lot about someone by how they're ordering.
I think.

Speaker 1 I don't know what do you think.

Speaker 2 Wait, what can you learn about somebody by how they order?

Speaker 1 Like you can learn kind of like what they're, I don't know, I'm a big foodie. He's big foodie.
So it's like what your food priorities are, what your flavor profile preferences are.

Speaker 1 Like, are they really healthy? Are they kind of more indulgent? Like, and I also like, do they want to splurge? Do they get the most expensive thing?

Speaker 1 Or are they kind of hanging out more on the cheaper things? Not that that matters to me, but like, you can learn a lot. That's true.
Also, it's collaborative.

Speaker 1 At Ataka's place, you're doing small plates, you're sharing everything. So it's like, it's collaborative.

Speaker 2 On our third date, my girlfriend, Jess, we did a reverse date. We did dessert first.
Oh, I love that. We said, let's get dessert first.
And that was fun.

Speaker 2 And then we went and we were kind of full by the time time we went to the nicer restaurant.

Speaker 2 What I remember about her, and she still, this still comes out in her cooking and in her culinary pursuits, is she hates,

Speaker 2 she's like, We can't, we can't throw any of this food away. It's just wrong to throw food away.

Speaker 2 But there wasn't enough left to do a take-home, so we're basically forcing ourselves to finish all these.

Speaker 1 I would not enjoy a date with your girlfriend. Yeah, we were.
Because I'm like, get it away from me, throw it out. I don't care.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we were like a couple of uh geese that were being force-fed for him

Speaker 2 for the foie gras.

Speaker 2 But that told me something about her. He's like, oh, I don't want to waste food.
And she loves food. She's a big foodie as well.
We talked a lot about food.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
It's a great, it's a great topic to get into. Anyway, at the end of the date, he did go for the kiss.
And it was definitely surprisingly better than I thought it would be.

Speaker 1 Because I, again, I wasn't sure about him. I was very like skeptical and neutral and lukewarm on my husband the first three dates.
By the end of the third day, though, I was crushing hard.

Speaker 1 Like it took three in-person dates for me to feel the spark, to feel attracted to him. It wasn't, I did not think he was ugly.

Speaker 1 Okay, people think, like, oh, you're going on dates with people you're not attracted to. No, attraction for women just takes a little bit longer sometimes.
It's, it, it's different for women.

Speaker 1 And I think men really need to understand this. Like,

Speaker 1 we need to feel trust and safe because when you think about it, there's way more at risk for us when we get involved with a man.

Speaker 1 We, and I don't know if all women really realize that either, but it's like you're not going to feel immediately attracted to someone.

Speaker 1 And that attraction, even if it's immediate, can go away as you learn about them if they're a huge asshole. Like, you know?

Speaker 1 Right. So, yeah.

Speaker 2 So, three, interesting. I'm not totally surprised, but I'm intrigued.
So, he was a, in terms of relationship material, he was in the maybe category after one or two dates?

Speaker 1 Um, you know, he was, I would say, he was actually in the yes relationship material, but it was more like, do I

Speaker 1 like him? And I had, so my dating journey was focused on my needs. I had a list of five needs that I were, that were non-negotiable for me and a partner.

Speaker 1 And so my agenda in the first three dates, again, I wasn't discussing this with the men I was seeing. This is my personal internal decision making.
Sure.

Speaker 1 My agenda was, can I figure out if they can meet my needs?

Speaker 1 Obviously, figuring that out in three dates is unrealistic, but I wanted to do the best I could.

Speaker 1 And so by the end of the second date,

Speaker 1 he's really funny. So he uses humor to deflect a lot.
So cracking into his personality was kind of a challenge for me.

Speaker 1 He might be my twin, long-last twin,

Speaker 1 younger twin brother. It's really similar.
Like, so I think he wasn't opening up a lot.

Speaker 1 And I think in my head, I was like, okay, if I don't learn what I need to learn about him by the end of this third date, I'm going to move on. But that didn't happen.

Speaker 1 you know, asked him very direct questions about what I needed to learn about him. And it ended up being a fantastic date.
We We got sushi and we went to a comedy show.

Speaker 1 And, you know, by the end, it ended with like a makeout in his car when he dropped me on off at home.

Speaker 1 And then the next morning, he sent me a Spotify playlist and I was like, I'm done.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you knew. That's great.

Speaker 2 Can you share one or two of the needs that were important to you?

Speaker 1 Yes. So

Speaker 1 my most important one that I was looking for was someone who has a desire and the means for novelty. And that could mean

Speaker 1 a trip, like travel and like bigger trips, but it also could mean like trying new restaurants.

Speaker 1 Because in my past relationship experience, I have been with guys who were more home bodies, who, which is fine, but they didn't want to like go try new restaurants.

Speaker 1 I was in a relationship for six years and my ex just wanted to literally go to restaurants, pick it up and eat it at home. And that's just not me.

Speaker 1 I was really looking for guys who wanted to do fun things locally and also, of course, like travel and had the money to do that too, obviously. That was important.

Speaker 1 So that was a huge one and the other one other big one for me was empathy so i think that's a one on every woman's list should be on every human's list uh just a guy who could

Speaker 1 understand or at least acknowledge feelings

Speaker 2 okay as a concept and i'm curious so some of these things i assume you were sensing from him but there sounds like there are others you had to pull out of him or ask him yeah so the one i remember on the third date was specifically i wanted a guy i really need someone who's ambitious right?

Speaker 1 I think that's another one that a lot of women have. And I just didn't hear him talk about his career that much.

Speaker 1 And so I made sure on the third date to ask direct questions about his career growth and all that. And just like, what do you want us to do with his life outside of his career?

Speaker 1 And that gave me a lot of clarity.

Speaker 2 I like that. Yeah.
I tell some of my clients who, and just listeners of this podcast, I hear this from time to time from men.

Speaker 2 I hear, you know what, I'm just not, you know, I don't have, I'm not a millionaire. I don't make six figures.

Speaker 1 and I say to them well okay you might not be super wealthy but can you share some ambition or do you have some ambition is that something you can cultivate because ambition regardless of how much money you actually make that's an attractive trait it's an important trait right ambition could even be like I want to build I want to learn how to build a couch I don't know it could be something that isn't even like for monetary gain like it could just be like I want to learn this I want to learn a language I want to master this instrument that to me is ambition as well it's not just like i want to advance in my career absolutely and it's good if that's coming out authentically hopefully yeah it's coming out organically in a conversation but if and by the way like i earned more than every guy i dated so okay like i at the time i owned a different business i had a completely different thing and as a business owner that was just the reality and that was i wasn't looking for i didn't really care about salary i think i cared more about competence right in financial is way more important than salary interesting just knowing that they're competent with money and about money.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 2 No, this is great. I think a lot of men get caught up in the surface level things about, well, what do I say? How do I keep the conversation going? How do I not be boring?

Speaker 2 And those are all understandable things to make sure you have handled. But the bigger,

Speaker 2 what I call the big life stuff, the big things that we need to be on the same page about that are basically like deal breakers in terms of things that meet your needs.

Speaker 2 Or it could be things like children or no children, some religion or not. I mean, everybody's got their own blueprint.

Speaker 2 So I tell them, hey, look, you can't really, really, you can't, you can control to an extent how well you flirt. You can improve your conversation skills.

Speaker 2 But in terms of like who you are, what you bring to the table,

Speaker 2 it is what it is. And there's ways to amplify it, but you can't change that inherently or else you'd be a fraud.

Speaker 1 Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And it's just sort of like, well, this is who I am.

Speaker 1 This is my ambition, hopefully, or lack thereof, which would be fast. No, look, he is, I have more ambition than him, but that's okay.
Like, I think when you are looking for a partner,

Speaker 1 it's all on a spectrum. It's like no one is going to be 100% what you're looking for in any category.
Right. So, yeah, I knew that going in.

Speaker 2 Nice. A couple more questions about the 64.
Did you set out to do that or is that just the number it became?

Speaker 1 No, that was the number it became. I was ready to be single for a long time.
So I got out of of the six-year relationship. Like I broke up with him.
Like the day he started attacking Matt Rings.

Speaker 1 I was like, I cannot marry this guy. Like, I know this is wrong for me on many levels.

Speaker 1 And I, and I wanted to

Speaker 1 try a different dating approach. Right.
That was my goal. I was like, I learned a lot in therapy and

Speaker 1 I have a completely different new view on. who I need in my life.
So I set out to practice my dating skills and

Speaker 1 just keep going until I found what I was looking for and then stop.

Speaker 1 Yeah, which happened. So I was ready to go on 100 more for estates.
I was ready to be single for a decade. I was ready, you know, that was.

Speaker 1 You were that ready. Okay.
Yes. I made a plan for my life as if I never met anyone.
Like that was kind of what I had to do.

Speaker 1 And that security helped me have the confidence to just keep going until I met someone I liked enough to focus on them.

Speaker 2 How did you keep from overthinking?

Speaker 2 How did you keep things simple?

Speaker 1 Did you struggle with that? I lowered, I didn't because I lowered the stakes. Like, again, having that, that mentality of like, I might never meet someone.

Speaker 1 I might be single for the rest of my life. What would the best version of that life look like?

Speaker 1 Then going into every date being like, I don't need this to work out because I already have this amazing plan for myself. I don't need, and so when you take that, I need this to work out.

Speaker 1 I need a partner. I'm so alone.
I'm so lonely. Blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 1 Newsflash, you can be lonely in a relationship too. Relationships don't solve everything.

Speaker 1 Like, so I think that was where I just, I just kind of cared less because, and that helped me not overthink things and just have fun.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. You were free from needing any given date or any given guy to be the one, right?

Speaker 1 And I don't know how it is for guys, but for women, there is that layer, like I said earlier, of the biological clock. Like I want kids, we are planning to have kids.

Speaker 1 But I also was ready to not, right? I was ready to have a version of my life where I didn't meet anyone and didn't become a mom. And cool.

Speaker 1 Like that is just kind of, you can't control everything, you know?

Speaker 2 No, for men, it's obviously there's not, there's not the same biological deadline.

Speaker 2 But definitely men, whenever there's a birthday with a zero approaching, it's really a

Speaker 2 big thing for men. And a lot of men think, oh, well, you know what? The big 4-0 is here.
I guess I'm undatable now.

Speaker 2 Or the big 5-0 or whatever the number is. I thought 30 was going to be bad bad for me, let alone 40 or beyond.

Speaker 1 No, I think that for men, I feel like in your early 40s is like the prime time because you can, you have like the widest range of ages you could date at that point.

Speaker 2 I think so. Well, maybe you can talk to my guy listening to this.

Speaker 2 Oh my God, I'm too old.

Speaker 2 I'm going to be 40 soon. I can't date.

Speaker 1 Listen, listen to me.

Speaker 1 You are a listener to this amazing podcast, How to Get a Girlfriend with Connell. That means you are already scores above the average guy out there in the dating world.

Speaker 1 If you're in your 40s and you're listening to content like this and you're following what Connell says, you are in amazing shape. Like

Speaker 1 there are so many women I talk to every day in the late 30s, early 40s range who are like, Where are all the men? So you have every opportunity to stand out in this age range.

Speaker 2 Thank you. This, yeah, the more you know.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I think also, like, again, if you're listening and you just did this whole series about approaching in real life,

Speaker 1 every day I get a message where it's like, where are the men? So if you're listening to this, like, please follow Connell's advice and go out and practice it because women want you to do this.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 2 I told a story in a recent episode. This beautiful, I mean, beautiful person.

Speaker 2 15 years ago, nervous, handshaking, Connell

Speaker 2 walked up with cotton in my mouth and chatted her up in a Whole Foods in the cereal section. And she said,

Speaker 2 after she gave me her number, like a pep talk, she was kind of like you. She's like a coach.

Speaker 2 And she said, it's okay. You know what? You can come talk to us.

Speaker 1 We like it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 It was like, oh my God, I feel like you're talking to all men.

Speaker 1 Listen, even as a married person, even when I was in a relationship, men still approach me.

Speaker 1 And I always am extremely, like, I'm trying to be nice, kind, approachable because I want to encourage more of it, even though I'm taken. Like, I'm not going to shut people down.

Speaker 1 I'm still making eye contact, being approachable, because I think if a guy comes up to me and has a pleasant interaction, even though I'm in a relationship, hopefully they'll continue to do that until they meet someone.

Speaker 2 Yeah, guys are so, and I'm not, I'm not judging them because I, I had every problem there was in the world to have, pretty much, for a shy, nerdy guy.

Speaker 2 But I remember thinking, I don't want to bother women. I don't want to be that creep.
I don't want to be a burden.

Speaker 2 But what I learned is actually, you're probably going to be creepier if you just stare at her and don't do anything.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Either stay away entirely or go take a chance. My girlfriend, Jess, every so often she'll tell me about a guy who chats her up on the subway.
And she does it through the lens of

Speaker 2 keep up the good work. I have a boyfriend.
I'm in a relationship, but keep up the good work. And she's very friendly.

Speaker 2 So you can be really nice and say, hey, thanks, but no thanks, but you made my day.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I also like, don't, I don't think that if you get if you learn a woman you're talking to has a partner that's like the easiest kind of rejection there is it has nothing to do with you right you're not you're not supposed to know you're not supposed to automatically know who's in a relationship obviously yes like i'm wearing a ring i've been and i've been chatted up even with the ring on like they just don't notice it's fine it's it's okay you know

Speaker 1 you're not supposed to know um who has who is a boyfriend or whatever or a girlfriend yeah yeah well let me ask you about this because i'm just thinking through the lens of what do you guys really struggle with and you,

Speaker 2 I think you're a great person to address this.

Speaker 2 Nice guys.

Speaker 2 Do women want nice guys? Do women not want nice guys? Do they want guys who are nice, but not too nice? How do you address the whole nice topic?

Speaker 1 We need to stop talking about nice. We want kind.

Speaker 1 There is a difference between nice and kind. Nice is surface level, people pleasing.
You're probably going to say things you don't mean.

Speaker 1 Nice is saying, I would love to see you again at the end of a date when you don't mean it, or you don't know. That's nice.
We don't want that.

Speaker 1 We want kind, which is more considerate, thoughtful, has more integrity. And maybe you're not going to say, I had a nice, I had a great time.
Let's do it again if you don't mean it.

Speaker 1 That's the kind thing to do.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 There's a poll done by

Speaker 2 a health app called Clue.

Speaker 2 And it was about five or six years old, but I still send it to my clients to this day. 64,000 women were surveyed.
and the number one thing they most wanted in a male partner was kindness.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Like wasn't it?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I tell people if you don't, if your partner isn't kind, you need to break up with them. That is not, you can't have a healthy relationship with someone who isn't kind.

Speaker 1 And look, my husband, like, he is not, I would not describe him as nice.

Speaker 1 He is kind. He's extremely generous with the people in his life, but sometimes he is pretty sharp.
And that's like, that's okay. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Well, that's the

Speaker 2 edge, the realness that can be really human.

Speaker 1 He criticized me on our second date, and I was shocked. He what? He criticized me on our second date.

Speaker 1 I, well, okay, not me, but I had this other business I mentioned, and I was showing him the web app that we had built for this business.

Speaker 1 And when I handed people, when I usually want to hand people the phone to show them, I think they're like, oh, wow, this is great.

Speaker 1 No, right away, he's like pointing out every little imperfection in the web app that I, of course, know is there. And I yanked my phone back and I was like,

Speaker 1 what the hell, man?

Speaker 1 So that's an example of like, he wasn't negging me. He wasn't like trying to rile me up or anything.
He did, but like, he was just being honest.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 2 just being really real and genuine is going to fix most of those little problems that like, oh, I'm too nice. Well, because you're being fake.

Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. Nice is fake.
And we just, and I don't think anyone wants that. I don't think the guys listening want that from the women they're dating either.

Speaker 2 And then there's the overcorrection. Oh, I'll just be some alpha fake pickup type dude.

Speaker 1 Wow, that's just a huge terrible overcorrection. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And I told this story yesterday, but yours, this will run before I think the other one airs. I once approached a woman in Miami, and I was just in a really good mood.

Speaker 2 I was feeling really friendly and kind and just happy. And I walked up and I said, you know what I'm going to say? I'm just going to say exactly what I'm feeling in the moment.

Speaker 2 And I walked up and said, hey, excuse me, I just saw you. I'm in a really good mood.
I just want to share it with somebody. How's your day going? And her eyes lit up like she won the lottery.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it was incredible. She was beautiful.
And then because I was there taking a pickup artist seminar, I got into my head. Not in my head.
I went into my head and I thought, okay, I hooked her.

Speaker 2 Now I'll do my 17 pickup judo moves, neg,

Speaker 2 statement of interest, pull back this, that.

Speaker 1 Oh, no.

Speaker 2 And I'm watching this, having like an out-of-body experience as I'm doing all this recited PUA bullshit and I'm seeing her go from lit up to,

Speaker 2 what's going on here? I could just see her losing absolute, not just attraction for me, just social interest.

Speaker 2 And she said, after 90 seconds of me talking at her, I just, she said, well, it was nice meeting you. And she walked away.
And that was like an incredibly painful, but powerful lesson.

Speaker 1 Did you go back to the seminar? Did you learn your lesson?

Speaker 1 I totally learned the lesson.

Speaker 2 I absolutely learned the lesson, lesson, which is that you can overthink, over-plan, the whole concept of what I say and saying the perfect thing and game, it's just, it still messes up so many, so many men.

Speaker 1 I think when I talk to people, women and men, about interacting in real life, it's like start on a friendship level, start with kindness and politeness, and then you can read the room and see where it goes.

Speaker 1 But like, I think everyone just wants to be treated like humans, like people, you know?

Speaker 2 Yeah, what a concept.

Speaker 1 Treat people

Speaker 2 like people.

Speaker 1 What about...

Speaker 2 So we talked a little. Oh, let me ask you about approaching.

Speaker 1 Sure.

Speaker 2 What is your view? What do women think about it in general? About a guy who comes up,

Speaker 2 are some women just going to shut it down right away because they've had bad experiences? Are some women open to it? I assume it depends on the woman, right?

Speaker 1 I've done polls on this on my Instagram, which, by the way, is 80% women.

Speaker 1 And I think every time I poll, it's like a landslide. Women want to be approached in public.

Speaker 1 But they, you know, obviously want men to do it in a self-aware way. Like, like you said earlier, it's like not staring, not nagging, right?

Speaker 1 Like, you know, it's like walking up like a, just a human being, you know?

Speaker 1 And you, you mentioned so many different ways in previous episodes you've done about like. just random things you've opened a conversation with based on what the environment is.

Speaker 1 But yeah, I do think women want people to approach. I get approached in the the gym and the gym is such a controversial place, I think.
But I really think more approaching should happen in the gym.

Speaker 1 It starts with eye contact. If someone is not making eye contact with you, they don't want to talk to you when it's really that simple.

Speaker 1 If they're making eye contact with you several times or even giving you a smile or a head nod or something, they're open to be talking to, I think.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 That's a great tip. So that's where you want to look for those subtle indicators of some interest, at least social interest.

Speaker 1 If you can't catch their eye, don't, they're just off the table.

Speaker 2 Because it's a gym and it's a bit of a more of a

Speaker 1 and anywhere. I think anywhere.

Speaker 1 Yeah, if you can't make the eye contact, they don't want to be talk to you that day.

Speaker 1 That's it.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And if you do make the eye contact, then what do you advise? Men.

Speaker 1 That's, that's, that's a great, that's a green light. I would say if you could do it a few times, I think a few, not too many times, but I think two or three times is good.

Speaker 1 And then you can just, like you said, you say in your podcast all the time, like you can walk up and introduce yourself it can be that simple what are you drinking what are you reading what brings you here today what are you working on like just that question you know oh i like i saw your jacket all those simple things very very simple yeah and i do all the time and i am also encouraging women to approach men too by the way so i'm here

Speaker 1 yes oh my god tell me about this

Speaker 2 out okay they're missing out tell me if i woke if we woke up tomorrow like in a twilight zone episode and it was up to women to approach men what would that world be like? What would happen?

Speaker 1 I think a lot more people will be in relationships right now.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I really do. Because I think that the modern relationship is more reciprocal.
It's less of the guy leading. I just feel like

Speaker 1 in your relationship,

Speaker 1 you're not keeping score of who's texting first and who's initiating plans. Why don't we just start that way? Yeah.
You know, like, why are we overthinking?

Speaker 1 I was just talking to a woman in my DMs and she's dating a doctor and she was like, oh, we had plans, but he stayed late at the hospital. I don't want he, I texted last.

Speaker 1 I don't want to text him again. I'm like, girl, if this is how you're starting their relation, like your dating experience, how is it going to be in a relationship?

Speaker 1 If you're keeping score, you're focused on the wrong thing. So I always tell women, like,

Speaker 1 also another reason to approach men is because they don't ever get approached.

Speaker 2 That's so rare.

Speaker 1 And, and you're going to have, you could be the most awkward. You could be so awkward, it will still work because they're, they're just so happy to be approached.

Speaker 2 I still remember. Yes.
Oh my God.

Speaker 1 You will remember me. Like, am I right? Yes.

Speaker 2 If any women listening, you will make my year if you just compliment my jacket.

Speaker 1 And I'm really trying to help women understand this. Yeah.

Speaker 2 We love it, ladies. Oh, my God.
We love it so much. I still remember I was on the subway 10 plus years ago.
And I was with my nephew and niece of all people.

Speaker 2 They were visiting me from Ohio here in New York. And And they were visiting me.

Speaker 2 When my nephews and nieces turned 16, I brought them to New York and gave them like

Speaker 1 Broadway. I did that with my uncle.
Oh, so cute. Yeah, I'm the fun uncle.

Speaker 2 And I remember we're on the subway, and a very attractive woman started to chat with me. And

Speaker 2 I remember what she said. The conductor, this is back when there were actual humans speaking

Speaker 2 over

Speaker 2 the speaker system, not recordings. And the conductor had some kind of exotic accent.
And she looked at me and smiled. And she said something like, oh, wow, did you hear his accent?

Speaker 2 I think it's from Jamaica. And it was so wonderfully random that I realized, oh, she's just trying to find a reason to talk to me.
And she smiled and it was a nice present conversation.

Speaker 2 I had a girlfriend at the time, so it didn't go anywhere. But I was walking around for hours, especially because my nephew saw cool Uncle Connell.

Speaker 2 He's like, wow, girls go up to you all the time, right? And I'm like, no, once every five years.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, no, no. I'm all about it.
I think I also took that same approach on Hinge, right? I pretty much only went out with men I messaged first because

Speaker 1 I am the, I want to be the chooser. I don't want to be chosen.
I wasn't trying to be chosen. A lot of women are.

Speaker 2 Okay. I would be, speaking of Hinge, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you a couple dating app questions before we wind up.
And you met your now husband on Hinge, you said, right? Yep. And

Speaker 2 you matched, obviously, and who messaged whom first?

Speaker 1 I messaged him first. He said his profile was pretty boring and basic.
It wasn't, it was filled out properly, like fully. He had, and he looked normal.
That's what I was looking for.

Speaker 1 I'm like, you look normal and you put effort into your profile. It doesn't have to be witty.
And he, like, it was the most dry profile, but he's like really funny. So he said he liked audiobooks.

Speaker 1 So I was like, what are you reading? What are you listening to right now? And we talked about audiobooks for a while. I was in Hawaii when I messaged him.
So we talked about me being in Hawaii.

Speaker 1 And then I was, I, I kept being like, so,

Speaker 1 what are we meeting for coffee? You're like, I will do that because I'm like, I'm not going to message you for weeks.

Speaker 1 So if he asked me a question, I would be like, okay, let's talk about that over coffee. Hint, hint, nudge, nudge.
Let's, let's get the plan going.

Speaker 1 And I had to do that like three times because he was stalling because he wasn't in Seattle yet. And then he landed on the video date thing.

Speaker 1 So, yeah.

Speaker 2 Great. Well, he finally got the hint.
It took him long enough.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So he, yeah, it took him a few times he was like let's let me get your number we'll go from there so um that's how a lot of my conversations went i would message first see if they could have a normal conversation without making any lewd comments being rude being weird you know so can you just have a normal back and forth without making it weird and if i wanted to yeah go ahead oh sorry i could finish your thought

Speaker 1 if i wanted to if i if they if they passed that test i would say like hey it's me and i have no problem i always tell women like stop waiting waiting for the guy. Just like be like, hey, let's me.

Speaker 1 It's just, yeah, it's just more efficient. I think it's just like, who has the time to wait for every guy to be like, let's go on a date? If you want to date, just go for it.

Speaker 2 Appreciate it. I went to Stockholm once as a then student of these pickup dudes, one of the better ones, one of the more

Speaker 2 gentlemanly, if you want to call him that. And I was blown away by how women in Sweden are just really progressive and take charge.

Speaker 2 And this woman's like, hey, do you want to go back to my place, have a drink?

Speaker 2 I was like, my God, could you please come to America and teach women to do the same thing? I loved it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So anyway, I love when a woman does that. Still, I want guys to lead that dance or at least be ready to dance.

Speaker 1 It's both. I think both need to step up and step into that space.
It's not like either or. It is both.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 But you mentioned the W word. I hear that a lot.
Weird. I don't want to be weird.
I don't want to be a creep. I don't want to be weird.
What is your definition of weird?

Speaker 2 Let's talk about maybe messaging on a dating app like Hanj. What's your definition of weird when you hear?

Speaker 1 It's just any really the biggest giveaway is anything if they

Speaker 1 you can give a physical compliment, but if it's anything sexual or

Speaker 1 anything about my body unclothed, like that's just an immediate no. It's an immediate, okay, you're looking for a hookup, which, hey, no shame in that.
I'm just not looking for that. So bye.

Speaker 2 And you can look for a hookup in a way that doesn't involve our body parts right.

Speaker 1 I agree. Yes.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Totally. And I did have hookups off the apps.
Like, that is totally fine. No shame in that.

Speaker 1 No. So I think also making it weird.
I mean, one time a guy sent me a Spotify playlist in Hinge that, again, I was like, I really don't understand. Is this like a joke? It was just a weird playlist.

Speaker 1 Like, you could send, it could have worked if it was like, I made, like, here are some of my favorite songs right now. Cool.
We could talk about that. But, like.

Speaker 1 That was weird. I mean, just anything that just, we just want normal.
We just want like a normal. Let's just talk about.
And I always tell women, like, you're making small talk.

Speaker 1 Just see, just have a couple back and forth messages. It doesn't need to be more than like five to ten messages back and forth before you move to a date.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And you can kind of vibe. Well, it's not even a vibe in your case.
They're very clear indicators that you wanted something to happen. Like, maybe we'll talk, let's talk about this over coffee.

Speaker 2 One of my very first crushes back when I first was intentionally working on my dating life.

Speaker 2 She, you know, would say things like, oh, oh, you're out of town for the weekend. I guess we won't be able to to get that drink till next week.

Speaker 1 Ask me out, dude. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Exactly.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think that's a big frustration I hear from women:

Speaker 1 they're not asking me out, they're not asking me out. So, I just can't control what they're doing.
I'm talking to the woman in the scenario, so I'm like, Okay, say that you want to meet.

Speaker 1 That's all you can do in that moment, yeah, or you just wait forever and be frustrated.

Speaker 2 So, to de-weirdify a guy's hinge conversation or his profile, no sexual talk

Speaker 2 unless you're both

Speaker 1 trust that it clearly will get there. I think some guys are like, well, what if she's not into sex? What it's like, just trust that it'll get there.

Speaker 1 You need to make her feel safe and comfortable first. You need to be trust first.

Speaker 1 That's the first step is just show that you're a safe, trustworthy person because there are so many creeps out there, people with bad intentions.

Speaker 1 Every woman you've talked to, every single one, I can guarantee has had a bad experience with a guy. So they're on guard.
And that's unfortunate.

Speaker 1 So that's what you need to remember when you're talking to any woman. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 desexualize your conversation, at least early,

Speaker 2 until it organically builds to that.

Speaker 1 If it does, there's nothing wrong with just sticking to the basics of like, of what's on their profile, what's in your profile, what's in her photos.

Speaker 1 Does she have a cool photo where she's like standing on a cliff on a hike or like with a horse? I don't know. Just like ask about the pictures.

Speaker 1 Stay away from what are you doing this weekend? How's your week? Those are boring. We don't want those.
You don't want those either. No one wants to talk about that.

Speaker 1 Focus on just the thing. Find a couple of things you can connect on.
Like, okay, cool. We have two things in common.
That's enough. Let's go to the date.
Boom.

Speaker 2 Exactly. Five, ten messages max.
Let's move forward. Yeah.
And if you ask and she needs a little more time, that's fine. At least you're showing that interest or showing that

Speaker 1 intentionality. Yeah.
I have, yeah, some people, and I always tell women, like, don't, it's on an immediate red flag if they ask for the date, like in the first message.

Speaker 1 You can just say, let's chat a little bit more here, or let's have a phone call, and then we'll see about the date. Like, that's fine.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Do you, I'm putting you on the spot a little bit, but do you remember, do you remember the wittiest or maybe not the wittiest, but a really good creative opener

Speaker 2 from Hinge that just got your attention back when you were on your 64 dates or other times?

Speaker 1 I don't, but I can share a dumb line that worked on me for a hookup. Okay, even better.
Go on.

Speaker 1 I don't know if this will work on other women, but it worked on me. So I was talking to this guy from Tinder, and he was very attractive.

Speaker 1 And he was like, I think we made out in a bar one time in the Lower East Side.

Speaker 1 And he already learned that I was from New York. And I'm like, that could have happened in my head.
Like, that definitely could have happened. I used to go out in the Lower East Side.
Okay.

Speaker 1 Who did it? And I was like, I don't know. And that totally worked on me.

Speaker 2 Was this his opener or was this in the conversation?

Speaker 1 No, it was like a little bit more in the conversation. Nice.
But I was like, did we?

Speaker 1 And it was definitely a line. But like, yeah, you know what? It was, I was definitely in, I think some women are going to be in the mood to have that kind of conversation and some won't be.

Speaker 1 And that's okay. He probably, you know, whatever.

Speaker 2 What is your definition of a good online dating opener? Let's say a guy matches with you or a single woman on Hinge and he's going to take that first swing. Any quick tip there for our guys?

Speaker 1 I really think it's about the profile. Show us you've read it and show us you have read the things we wrote, not just the pictures.
Be like, oh, you mentioned you love horror movies.

Speaker 1 Have you seen, did you see the new Nu Esperatu? Like, I don't know, whatever. So that, that's the, I think, the winner.
Don't say, hey, cutie. Don't say, hey, beautiful.

Speaker 1 I think you can use the name, like, hey, Charlotte, whatever.

Speaker 2 Everybody loves your name.

Speaker 1 The names is fine, but like, don't come in with a hey, beautiful. It's like, and also the more specific you make it, like, women are getting, women are getting copy-pasted first messages.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So just if you, it needs to be specific. So make sure you read it back to make it be like, okay, is this specific to her profile or could I have sent this to anyone? Yeah.

Speaker 1 If you had, could have sent it to anyone, that's not, that's a no-go.

Speaker 2 Great tip. I think just having a really good profile makes your opener work so much better than if I tell my guys, they get so hung up on, oh, the perfect opener, witty, perfect, everything.

Speaker 2 And then I want it to be as good as reasonable. But I don't want it to sound like an opener.
I want it to sound just like a nice, simple conversation starter.

Speaker 2 But what I think is going going to make it work is, oh, the overall profile of this gentleman fits within reason what you, what she might be looking for, right?

Speaker 1 And yeah, you can't, you can't take, like you were saying earlier, you can't tailor your profile to what someone else wants.

Speaker 1 I think you've got to tailor your profile for the person you're trying to attract. And what you also like, my view on profiles is that they're a conversation starter.

Speaker 1 They're not supposed to encapsulate your entire personality. You can't.
So pick three things that you enjoy talking about that you care about.

Speaker 1 And hopefully you'll attract people who care about those things too or have opinions on them.

Speaker 2 Okay, I'm going to make up some final fun questions for you.

Speaker 1 I'm ready.

Speaker 2 That aren't even dating advice. I'm just going to be stupid.
Okay. If you were single, who is the male famous person you would love to be right-swiping on you and messaging you?

Speaker 1 Oh my God.

Speaker 2 Living dead, anybody. It could be Winston Churchill.

Speaker 1 Stanley Chichi.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Why? Why?

Speaker 1 He's got it all. He's attractive and he is a foodie.
I mean, he's traveled. He's classy.
I think he also has like a bunch of content about going down on women.

Speaker 1 Stanley Teachy does. Okay.
Yeah. I think so.
Or there's some kind of meme about that. So that's what came to mind.

Speaker 1 So he'd be a good lover, probably.

Speaker 1 So that's the first person that came to mind.

Speaker 2 I like it. What.

Speaker 2 What famous deceased person would you love to have right swipe on you if they were? Let's say they were alive, right?

Speaker 1 For me,

Speaker 1 I'm like, who's dead?

Speaker 1 That I know.

Speaker 2 Go ahead. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Who's dead and hot? That's the question.

Speaker 2 Who's hot and dead?

Speaker 1 I'm going to pass. I really can't think of anyone that

Speaker 1 I would really want.

Speaker 1 It's like, I don't, I'm not a rock star person. Like, I wouldn't want to date a rock star.
You know what I mean? Like, those, those are the people I come to mind who are dead and like attractive.

Speaker 1 And like, I wouldn't actually want to, I'm not a party girl. Like, I am a more like austan.

Speaker 2 I'll adjust the question and answer to make it easier on me. Uh, I'm gonna go Stevie Nick's Fleetwood Mac, like in the prime.
I like the whole witchy woman vibe she had.

Speaker 1 Yes, I'm into it.

Speaker 2 Let's play swipe right, swipe left. I did this with the guy who invented right swiping, uh, and it was fun.
He, he swiped right on a mini mouse. I thought that was fascinating.

Speaker 2 Um, okay, this is just things you like: swiping right or left on baking shows,

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 Okay. Like what? I'm into it.

Speaker 1 I mean, British Baking Show, the Great British Baking Show is such a fun, easy background watch. I'm into it.
Yeah. Okay.
What about you?

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. Swipe right, big time.
Prime Scene Kitchen is my favorite show with the whole friendly watch at Joel McHale. Fun.

Speaker 1 Also, pause here. My computer is very low on battery, so we should open it up soon.
Okay, cool. Because I couldn't plug it in with this, and I didn't want to kill it.

Speaker 2 Cool.

Speaker 2 We'll finish up right now.

Speaker 2 Anyway, Talia, this has been fantastic. I want to make sure that you give my audience a chance to find out how they can learn more about you.
Where should they follow you?

Speaker 2 Other than your podcast, where can my guy get more info and some insight from you?

Speaker 1 Yes, you are welcome to slide into my DMs anytime at dating.intentionally on Instagram.

Speaker 2 Fantastic. And please check out her podcast.
It's really good. And I'm going to check out your Instagram as well, which I haven't had a chance to yet.

Speaker 1 And I get to talk to you on my podcast soon. Yeah, I can't wait.

Speaker 2 I can't. We're going to swap.

Speaker 1 I want to grill you.

Speaker 2 Please do.

Speaker 2 Please do.

Speaker 2 You, no, it'll be my pleasure. I can't wait to talk to you.
And thank you for joining me. And thank you for listening.
There are only 9 million podcasts out there.

Speaker 2 And you listened to mine for like an hour. Thank you.
That was amazing.

Speaker 2 Don't forget your dream girlfriend is out there. She just has to meet the real you, the authentic you.
So go out there and take action. Carpe datum.
Until next time.