3 Hidden Reasons Why Women Lose Interest in You—and How to Keep Them Attracted Long-Term! with Johnny Cassell

You're displaying yourself as this wild, untamable sort of tiger.

And you get softer and softer and softer until you turn into a little, like a tubby domestic house cat.

And that's when you lose attraction. it.
Welcome back to the How to Get a Girlfriend podcast. I'm your host, dating coach Conal Barrett.
I am here to help you flirt with confidence, get more dates, and get a fantastic girlfriend. And do it with authenticity.
No toxic manipulation BS. None of that.
And today I want to talk about maybe not just how to get a great girlfriend, but how to have a great relationship with yourself, which is going to help you attract a great girlfriend. And we're going to talk about that and other things with my guest today.
His name is Johnny Cassell. Johnny is a London-based dating and lifestyle strategist.
He's also a student of human behavior, and he specializes in confidence and relationship building. He's got over a decade of experience working with high net worth clients of all shapes and sizes in the London area, and he's a big expert in the world of dating and personal development.
He's also the author of a book called Elite Seduction, and you might have seen him in the Sunday times sky news BBC radio if you're familiar with life Over on the other side of the pond and he's also on instagram and youtube and you can learn more about johnny at Johnny Cassell calm that's C-A-S-S-E-L-L Dot com johnny welcome to the how to get a girlfriend. I charge hourly and I'm very expensive, but I'm open to it.
Yeah, thanks for being here. I'm always psyched to talk to another male expert because there's a lot of things we have in common and there's probably going to be some fun things that we differ on or just have complimentary views on.
So Johnny, I want to start by asking you something we were talking about before we started recording, which is the idea of making sure that a single guy first has a good relationship with himself before he finds the right girlfriend, the right woman to have for his partner in a relationship. Can you elaborate on that? Why is it important to first be good with you before you attract a girlfriend? Well, first of all, I think it's completely unreasonable to be asking for the best of

someone else if we haven't got to the best place for ourselves.

So what does that mean?

I mean, if we're in a bit of a hiatus right now, we've come out of a long-term relationship,

we may have lost parts of ourselves that gave us joy, right?

We dedicated our whole life to the relationship. If there's kids involved, you know, there's that too.
Work, you know, has took its toll on us. We forgot about the things that give us joy.
So a great hack would be to think, okay, what are those things that actually lift me up, make me feel good, give me that euphoric moment in my life? Whether it be music, sports, hanging out with friends. It could be simply just sitting down watching a film that you used to watch for nostalgia.
Whatever those things are, take the time to reconnect with them. I mean, the other day, you know, I went out for a walk by myself.
Right. And I think there's a lot to be said on actually taking the time to take yourself out on a date right there's a there's a lot of peace that comes with that especially if you live a busy lifestyle so we all know the work that we need to do as well a lot of us just kind of put it off um there was a great post fight talk that i saw from conor m McGregor when he was having a lot of his fights.
And it was one of the fights that he lost. And you know what he's like.
He plays the role. He plays the character.
He's a cocky, arrogant guy. It sells tickets, right? And he said his quote was, yeah, we all know what the work is we need to do we just need to get on and do it and he himself said you know i didn't put the work in and i let myself down i let my team down i let everyone around i let the fans down so take stock of where you are and work out what those things are to be the 2.0 version of yourself.
I love that idea. Taking yourself out for a date.
Finally, a date I know that won't end in the friend zone for me. A solo.
Impossible, right? I know I'm going to get lucky. I know it.
Talk a little, that's a fascinating concept concept why does that help a man with the women he meets is it that women can sense a guy who just feels good about himself yeah yeah I mean you know this there's a lot that comes from it I mean if I was to think about that day where I took myself out for a walk you know I'm being more observational I. I'm enjoying the small things like grabbing a coffee, walking through the markets, having a bit of a back and forth with the shopkeepers, maybe the charity workers or the people at the foodstool, just seeing if I can find opportunities to have humour between individuals.
And I'm just having a good time by myself. And I, if we look at our interactions and you have this problem of seeking for approval, then this is a good exercise for you because it proves to yourself that you can go out and just have a good time.
Yeah. You're, you're amusing yourself and inviting other people into that amusement.
That's attractive. Yeah.
Yeah, one of my very first coaches helped me approach women, get really good at quote-unquote old-school pickup. And I remember he used to always talk about, you want to amuse yourself.
You've got to draw your positive state from inside of you. Because if a woman feels like you're relying on her to make you happy that can be repellent to women right yeah absolutely absolutely we've got to be the value adder you know we've got we've got to be looking at ways to add value where it's our energy you know like uh where we are you know and on the hierarchy and our careers and in life to me that's the essence of masculinity or one of the essences of masculinity is giving and in fact I saw a video you did right before we hopped on I was doing a little research because I try to be prepped and you did a video it ran somewhere on YouTube where you said the masculine is about giving and the feminine is about receiving that's nature and what I'm hearing you say and feel free to elaborate, correct me if I'm wrong, is the masculine is giving.
And that's a very generous place to come from, right? It is, it is. And of course, like, if we are doing all those things, you know, like going out, making the money, you know, taking care of the home, you know, doing as much as we can so she doesn't have to adopt masculine traits, then you are going to experience a woman that is truly in her feminine.
The more strain you have on yourself and then you kind of have to cooperate the household, then she's going to adapt more masculine traits. So it's just this,

I mean, that obviously exists, right? And it's a polarity in all of us that we have, you know, the masculine and the feminine. But if you truly want a woman to be completely in a feminine, then you have to adopt the masculine traits.
how do we how does a man convey those traits in a way that is authentic, genuine to who he is, at the same time, good quote unquote strategy that women notice? I think one thing we can all do, right, is a simple little task is when you next go next go to a restaurant it's you know taking the leadership of maybe ordering the food right like ask would you mind if if you if i could if i have a few suggestions would you mind if i take the do the order cool like that's attractive she's being led you're you're you're leading her to the experience right when it comes to dates like we know this this on day one, right? When we meet a woman, we get a number. We want to prove to them, like, we're the man, right? So you're saying, look, okay, meet me next Wednesday, 8 o'clock at this restaurant.
So straight away, she's like, oh, okay, this guy's, you know, he's taking care of things. That's attractive.
That's cool. He's got it.
But then what slowly seems to happen is, you know, we get softer and softer and softer in the relationship. So it's like you're displaying yourself as this wild, untamable sort of tiger, and you get softer and softer and softer until you turn into a little, like aby domestic house cat that's when you lose attraction it happens to the best of us man like it happens the best because because things things are nice right things are nice things are good things are going well you know i don't i don't necessarily need to go out and be the planner and once you got the girl that the game doesn't stop it's just a different game yeah you start off as a lion you end up garfield exactly and you wonder why she's she's losing interest it's true i got i got a client and um he had a bit of a hiatus um coming out of a relationship and then i picked him back up And we literally just had one session.
I gave him some suggestions. And he went on to the social activity, met a girl.
And he was just getting back into his fitness, right? Because he wanted to be, you know, more masculine looking. He wanted to look more attractive.
And I'm keeping my eye on this relationship. And I'm starting to see Garfield sort sort of make rear his head out a little bit again you know so it's like come on guys how does garfield come out for him well it's obviously you know just being a bit sloppy with the diet being a bit sloppy with you know working working out um lasagna coffee yes yes get a bit too, right? Forgetting about the things that made you attractive in the first place, right? And also as well, which I think is a big attraction killer, is not having your own life, right? So we got back in touch with ourself whilst we're single.
We got the relationship, and then we ditch that part of ourselves part of ourselves again right so again it goes back to the first point about reconnecting with the person that you were you lost touch of keep it yeah keep it there because the only source of joy if the only source of joy is coming from your relationship you're doomed you really are because all it takes is one hiccup there one argument and it feels it feels like your whole world's falling apart. But if you've got solace in community and activities, events, you know, you've got access to these things, then it's going to feel less hard on you.
I just had a bit of a flashback to something that happened to me, man, 20 years ago. I think you just helped me have a breakthrough.
Oh, really? I realize now. So when I first started working on my dating life, it was 2005.
That was when I actively said, Connell, you suck at dating. You got to get good at this.
And one of the first incredible women I connected with, her name is Lorraine, badass, amazing woman. She's a doctor now.
And when we met, I was this amazing planner. I was Mr.
Lion, Mr. Tiger, because I'd kind of

read that's what you need to be, but it wasn't really inside of me yet. Three or four months

later, she ended it. Essentially, I'd become Garfield.
And I realized, you know what? I just

wasn't quite enough man for her at that time. So you're just blowing my mind here.

I realized no one, I was doing an impression of that tiger, that lion, but really I was

still Garfield.

And she said, I need a lion.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But we need to feel the pain, you know, in order to us to, to make the change and for

it to really be embedded inside us as a, as a, as a solid lesson.

You mean we have to understand the problem and feel it before we can make that change? Yeah, a lot of us do. I mean, you know, it's like you're at school and it's like, you know, you've got the Bunsen burner burning, you know, you know not to put your hand on the Bunsen burner, but you know there's that daft kid that is going to put his hand on the Bunsen burner.
Ow, what'd you do that for? You know's not gonna do that again. He's not gonna do that again.
When I was younger, we had a rescue dog and never got on with his dog. Hated all of my friends.
My friends used to have to come and my mum used to have to hold the dog back and they used to run up the stairs and secretly try to get in my room about the the dog seeing it was vicious and um you know i was i was young i was naive and i was squirting this dog with a water pistol right my dad goes don't do that it's going to bite you it's going to bite your carry on squirt and squirt squirt and expended my hands in the dog's mouth i never did it again yeah so it's it's it's that isn't it you know we even like you and I, you know, we're in a position where we can help many. And, you know, sometimes we don't listen to our own lessons, you know, our own teachings.
Well, success feels good. Results feel great, but they're not necessarily the best teachers.
Sometimes you need to burn your hand on the Bunsen burner to say never again. Or as Lorraine basically said to me in so many words, you're not enough man for me, Connell.
Come back to me in a couple of years, maybe. It's hard, isn't it? Yeah.
I also had a friend that he was such a charmer. You know, he had landed this beautiful model russian blonde girlfriend and um you know he they had a few years between them and then one day she just turned around and she goes you know what it's not going to work between you and i and he's like what where's this will come from he's you know you have no assets so how how how can how are you able to look after us if if we if it becomes a problem between us you know that when i heard that story i was like wow i mean that's hard but that's a very good lesson right and i remember yeah on just on the same sort of realm of that i remember being at a pre-bafta party here in london this was quite a it's like going back 10 years ago and um it was the who's who of the scene i mean i knew a few actors there but i didn't know all the wigs, the directors and producers, all this stuff.
And I was at the bar and I was chatting to this bit of an older lady that had been in that scene for a while. And we got talking about how much money a man should make, you know? And she goes, well, you know, I tried dating a guy that was earning under 100 grand before.
It didn't really work. And I was just like, whoa.
I was a young guy at the time, you know. I was like, whoa, I mean, 100 grand is quite a lot of money for me.
You know, that's quite a lot of money. But it was an eye-opener back then because she had a point.
You know, if someone think a lot of us haven't haven't thought about the money you know we learned that this whole all the dating stuff like how to how to get how to attract a woman how to be more charismatic have a right mindset but we haven't looked at about getting our money right and um what happens is you you can build yourself to be the most charismatic, charming guy, speak like James Bond and the rest of it. But if you haven't worked on the core stuff, you're just a placeholder for someone else when they come along.
Just like my friend, right, as he was called out by his girlfriend. And just like this woman rightfully said, I mean, 100 grand, yeah, it's a lot of money in some districts.
But depending on where you are, it's probably treble that that you need to make. Because you're thinking about, well, that's my money, you know.
I need another 100 to maybe retire my partner, you know. Or, you know, looking after the parents or whatever and investments and stuff like that.
so I partner you know or if you know looking after the parents whatever and investments and stuff like that so i guess you know for the when i'm not working with the guys that have already got that stuff sorted out that's that's also another conversation i'm having with guys just to make them aware of that kind of things because otherwise you're just a short-term hold okay on the topic of money and status one thing I noticed early on in my figuring out success with women in my journey was how women notice our behaviors. Big, small, nuanced, the way we talk to the bartender, the way we talk to the waiter.
all the little sub communications that come out I just noticed that i noticed that women noticed and i made a mental note early on to not not always be on i didn't want to get in my head about it but to just always be aware that hey a woman's going to always be noticing how we're behaving especially in those first few dates few interactions when she's taking you in and that can convey your sense of confidence, your sense of status or lack thereof. What's your take on that? Do you agree? Do you disagree? What have you noticed in your dating coaching and your dating past? Absolutely.
I mean, I think essentially in communication, we're looking to break the expected pattern. When you go out, there is an obvious cliche pattern that exists socially, right? It's what do you do? Where are you from? How old are you? You know, that kind of not like the yawn zone, I call that.
Like, come on, man, we can do better than that. You know, if we've said to ourselves, I am getting better at this area, I want to improve my communication, you are not going out saying that stuff.
We can do better. Okay okay if you're bored of hearing yourself say the same thing the chances are that will then be transmitted right that will be it'll be received in that way no matter what you say you're bored she's going to be bored right exactly so it's we've we've got to get back to the self-amusement right i mean i found, I found myself the other day speaking to a new set of girls, and I was like, hi, hi, are you enjoying the party? Yes, yes, cool.
I go, oh my God, I'm looking after a cat at the moment. Like, what? Like, yeah, I got this, I just been dumped this bloody cat.
I go, whoa, yeah. And I started getting the pictures out, I started getting the videos.
I go, oh i go bastard he's like what go name's bastard i go what do you mean it's called bastard i go it's called dd but it's called bastard because he's a he's a bastard like he's running around he's a he's a jungle cat you know like he's hissing he's clawing me i just want to hug the poor guy you know so that is an amazing

experience for for you know just meeting someone they're going to remember that but i'm when does that work right why did that work if you could break that down for our listener it works straight away because like i said you're breaking an expected pattern right she's going to have interactions that lack imagination that whole evening or whatever that social playground is and if you're the sixth guy that says pretty much the same thing it's just not enough to carry it over the line you know it's not enough to make impact so in every social scenario you got to think, what's the pattern here I need to break? Like this is one we can all relate to. Like maybe we go to the Starbucks or Costa or whatever it is and we order a coffee.
Your goal is to get a free coffee. Right.
And you do that just by choosing to put a smile on the server's face.

We've all got the ability to give ourselves a silly name on that cup.

When she says, oh, what's your name?

You put Spider-Man or Snoop Dogg or Silly Bollocks or whatever it is.

And then she's going to shout that out.

And then you've made her laugh.

You've made others around you laugh. It's so easy to open up whoever's around you because you're the funny guy.
I never do that. Yeah.
I do the opposite. I do the opposite.
I need your coaching at Starbucks. So here's what I fuck up.
My name's Connell, and nobody gets it right. I get Colin and Connor, Carnal, which is my porn star name a totally different identity and when i go to starbucks when i go to starbucks i do the opposite of your good advice i just i give them my middle name which is timothy because i don't i just want them to get the order right but you know what yeah that's boring i'm gonna be spider-man from now on yeah and that comes from where it comes from deciding that today i'm gonna go out and i'm gonna be that today I'm going to go out and I'm going to be playful.

Or I'm going to go out and fuck with people.

I saw a guy the other day, and he was riding a Penny Farven.

You know those Victorian big wheel front, a small little frame and a small wheel on the back yeah it's like 19th century yeah yeah yeah how did he wake up and think this is the plan today like this is his commute you mean i don't know i don't think so i thought yeah he goes oh he's obviously just started his day and thought you know what i'm gonna take the bike out today and i'm gonna i'm gonna ride it through a busy district that's the plan today i mean as ridiculous as that is we've got to take something from that guy you know like we've got to go out and think you know what's the plan today well how can i have a playful day because i think a lot of pressure is put on ourselves when you realize that okay everything does come from come from the cold approach. Everything comes from your next interaction, your next business opportunity, your next romantic partner, your next useful friendship.
You've got to break patterns and it starts by you choosing to go out there and be playful and giving people a different experience. I love that.
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So the love of my life of the 2010s, I dedicated my book to her. Her name is Alex.
Wow, that's cute. Here's how I approached her.
I'm at a club in Vegas, and I see this beautiful blonde sitting with her bored friends.

They're all bored.

And I just know every guy is coming up and either just hitting on her sloppily or giving

her the, what did you call it, the yawn?

What was it?

The yawn zone.

Yeah.

The yawn zone.

Yeah.

And I said, okay, I'm going to try something more fun.

And I've been taking improv classes, And I was doing all this character work.

So I walk over to her.

I unbutton my shirt down to my belly button.

And I pretend to be like a Latin lover character.

And I walk up and I say, hello.

I am Armando.

Sorry, guys.

And she just busts out laughing.

It goes great.

She calls me Armando for the whole weekend, which we spent together.

And she became one of the great loves of my life. I'm grateful to convey.
And I say that not to impress my listener. I'm just saying you can have fun with this.
You can find fun, pattern-breaking ways to approach a woman or to talk with somebody at Starbucks. Just like you say, break that pattern.
Absolutely. And I think as well, it's something that I've done lot with with my guys is you know it's just like if you imagine yourself back in that scenario there you know where you saw of our friends there was something you told yourself right there was some self-talk that was going on right and a lot of the time when you get back to that place, it may be something like, she's mine.

Right.

Or, oh, I got to give it a go.

I'm going to take my shot.

Right.

Or it's on.

And I think what's really helpful is just to come up with that little buzz phrase so we can press go on that every time we see an opportunity.

Because if we don't have that positive reinforcement, we're going to listen to the other side, which is, you know,

We'll see you next time. Press go on that every time we see an opportunity.
Because if we don't have that positive reinforcement, we're going to listen to the other side, which is, you know, what's the point? She probably goes for this type of guy or that guy. Oh, no, she's not going to like you.
And you'll listen to that. Right.
Rather than bring out Armando. Right.
Turn it over to Armando. Yeah, she called me Armando for weeks it's so good take me into your coaching take me take us behind the curtain uh do you have any fun stories any great i love the story i love the anecdote you shared about um your your clients talking to women or you i should say you self amusing yourself do you have any fun stories of you and your clients out in the field doing it or your clients out doing it? All the time.
I mean, you know, we did a workshop last, last month and we got one coming up this week, but this, this guy, you know, I was speaking to him pre, he's part of my online community, but he's he hadn't done. We hadn't worked together in person before.
And I thought that he would need a lot of handholding because he was telling him it was he was caught up in this dark in a game place where he wasn't filled with positivity. You know, it looked like we'd be pushing for a lot of resistance.
But in actual fact, like he smashed it. He really threw himself at it.
And this this isn't like, wow, but this is something that can be done, which I think is often overlooked. We did some daytime interactions, some some daytime approaching and he approached this girl and it went well I think he was surprised how how well it was it was received she was receiving him and he I was sitting there watching it go down and just you're taking some notes on what was happening and he comes back and he relays back to me what was said and all this kind of stuff and i go great man you and you you got the number right he goes no oh no i go okay all right well look i got and i see that she's still in the distance i go look you're gonna run back there and you're gonna you're gonna get the number i i i say listen to me nine times out of ten she will give you the number right think about it it doesn't make sense that you just you approached her you had this amazing interaction and you left with nothing it's like what they've left they've let the village idiot out for the day you know you just go around approaching people like no she can't be left thinking that was what just happened right at least give her the reassurance of like oh no i was actually hitting on you you know so he went and did that and uh he was overjoyed he got the number and i think that really sort of gave him a breakthrough um and now there was another the guy really wanted to push it that day and out an evening we was doing some approaching and um you know we've got comfortable approaching the groups um you know single ladies and all this kind of stuff and he was like give me a give me a bit more of a challenge i go all right well there's there's a guy there with two ladies i mean i wouldn't imagine he's sleeping with both of them you know like one's one's got to be available surely, right? But we need to find out.
So I kind of gave him something to say to go and speak to the guy. And the guy turned around.
He was like, oh, no, this is my girlfriend. And this is my cousin.
So we didn't want to kind of like break up the family on that one. But I really give the guy kudos for really pushing through.

Yeah.

That's scary.

It can be so scary to walk up when there's a dude there.

Yeah, it can be.

It's definitely a breakthrough for me.

And it's an interesting one because I've also been in a position where I've been that guy, right?

Where I've been the guy with a girlfriend of mine at the time and a few of her friends. And then the guy has seen an opportunity.
So the guy's gone straight to one of the girls and approached her. Now, I've got no reason to have my back up about it.
But I observed what I was feeling at the time I was kind of pissed it was like you know you're not yes part of it being ego absolutely but it's like when you look at those dynamics it's like a lion and it's pride you know and you can't just go and jump on one of the lionesses you know you gotta to go and speak to the lion first. You've got to kind of have a chat and see if there's a bit of free zebra going around or something like that.
And then maybe, maybe he's going to let you know what the story is with the situation. Well, let me ask you this.
This is a great topic. I get this question a lot, so I'll ask you to answer it.
I'd love to hear your take. A man's in a lounge, a bar, and he sees two or three attractive women.
And there's at least one guy in the mix. Should he go approach? And if so, how should he do it? What are the social dynamics he needs to navigate? Any do's and don'ts there? Well, absolutely.
I mean, the key thing we need to get to is what's the story, right? Like, your rational thinking is thinking what I used to think was, you know, I'd look in and go, oh, he's sleeping of all of them. You're like, what? What? Like, where's that come from? It's just nonsense.
So I don't have to do it, right? Yeah. So coming up with a reason to get out of doing something i want to do yes so that's uncomfortable to do yeah but whenever we find ourself in that place of reaching for an excuse it's to take note of that and go okay well let's go find out so your excuse actually is your opener you know it could be like dude i had to come over because you are part of me was thinking you were sleeping with all of them it's johnny by the way you know so your excuse is your opener just like you know the girls wearing her headphones yeah we've all had it you know you've had you've walked around with your headphones in someone starts talking you don't just just just stand there and carry on listening to your music you know you take them off go yeah what's up you know but for some reason we go oh no we can't because she's got her headphones in i'm i'm often walking around in my headphones in i'm not even listening to anything but anyway but circle back around to that that dynamic is we've got to find out who the girlfriend is right right? So you've got to acknowledge the guy.

You've got to go, okay, what's the story?

So he's going to go, oh, this is my girlfriend.

You know, it's so-and-so's birthday.

So then you know, you've got the information.

You're obviously not going to step on his toes.

That's just being an idiot.

And if you've got a situation, I mean, one of my favorite stories,

this is actually going to feature in a book that's going to come out soon. I was working with this guy who was a bit of like a tech mogul.
And he was a former Jehovah Witness, like such a contrast in life that he was moving himself into. And we worked together throughout this week.
And he was petrified of women got him very comfortable and we walked into this bar and we saw this couple and what appeared to be this beautiful like columbia model right i'm looking at that and i'm going okay well she available, you know, she's she's available like he's she's not part of the she might be part of the couple. I don't know what dynamic they got going on, but we don't know that.
Right. So I look I look around what's happened.
I go, OK, they're there. They're drinking white wine.
I'm thinking, how should we approach it? And she's already looked over a couple of times at him right so there's already been that non-verbal interest and i come up with something i go okay cool here's what we're going to do go to the bar and get them out like we were already drinking malbec like red wine? So it's like go to the bar and get a Malbec. Then slowly move over to her, hold eye contact.
And then slowly remove her glass from her hand and replace it with the red. And say something along the lines of, a girl like you, looking like that, definitely should be drinking a red.
And then slowly move your eyes off and then come walk back to me. Oh God, it was, I mean, she did look like a Bond girl and that is exactly what she needed to experience in that moment.
You just painted that picture and I could see the James Bond movie happening in front of me. Yeah, well, I've just had a writer write that and I do hope it is read in the way that I'm able to tell it because it's a beautiful moment.
So that then happened. And then what we needed from her is to show some availability.
So she had to then splinter off the interaction in order for him to make this a verbal interaction now.

And I said to him, I like, look, that's what's going to happen next.

She's going to move her over here and she's going to make give us an opening and interaction be able to happen.

And that's what happened. You know, he was looking over my shoulder.

I was looking over his. I was like, yeah, here she comes, buddy.

And he slowly moved over. And then I think the first words that came out of his mouth goes, I don't believe I've met you properly yet.
You know, I don't believe we've done names yet or something like that. It was just smooth dialogue.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, those are the moments we live for.
I mean, yes, there's been amazing stories of marriage and, you know, picking people up from, you know, when they've fallen down and all this kind of stuff. But I really like those movie moments that come with this line of work.

You know, it's it's you feel like you've got enough to write, you know, write a good script.

What about your dating past? Tell me a little bit about, I don't know that much about you, why you became a coach or how. Did you struggle with women or were you good at it and wanted to share your knowledge? Tell us a little bit about your origin story.
Absolutely. I mean, there's the conscious level and there's the unconscious level.
And the unconscious level of realizing why you're on the path that you're on I think comes to the surface a bit later in in life and that came through certain books that I read about understand a bit more about psychology on a deeper level and you know what sort of things we inherit from our parents and all this kind of stuff. But, you know, my early school life, you know, if we go all the way back to like the sexes, right, of boy and girl, like mixing, my early school life was unpleasant.
And so unpleasant that I actually forgot about it. I don't know if it was just pushed down because it was so bad like like it wasn't sort of on a conscious level for me but I used to go to school at like I don't know five six years old and I was getting kicked to shit by girls like I was coming home with bruises all over my legs my mom had to go to the school and report it to the head teacher.

It was a serious thing.

Definitely something that you'd be worried about as a parent, you know.

And it kind of just like that just went away.

And then I went to, you know, high school was like an all-boys school.

So I did five years there, and I did another five years. Did time in the all-boys school? Great, great time, man.
Great time. I think a lot I learned about the social sciences on the playground more than anything.
And then I did five years studying motorsport engineeringport engineering okay so those are kind of also important elements because i learned i did learn a lot on the playground on a social level about all the different tribe leaders and you know i guess i was i i was always satelliting around the playground every lunchtime like mixing of all the different tribe leaders and um you're kind of i'll take responsibility for i feel like our year group was quite strong because i i behaved that way i was able to kind of pull people together a lot um but motorsport engineering it taught me about being more of a solution-based thinker. Okay.
You know, like there's, because you have to have an answer. You know, you have, there has to be a reason why that thing is making that noise.
You've put something back together wrong. So, you know, so how, or how do we improve something? How do we make something more efficient? So I never went to do motorsport engineering.

I loved messing around on fast things,

but I just kind of took that way of thinking

into what was a newfound passion of mine,

you know, the social sciences.

And I think, you know, why was I really interested

and passionate about it?

Wasn't really aware of it at the time as to why. But there was a certain feeling inside when I started going to the bookshelf in the Waterstones and Barnes & Noble and stuff like this that I was getting when I was picking up these books.
It was something inside me that was igniting. And I only really put it down to now as as to well this is a solution this is a solution for me to overcome you know what i'd experienced because every time i was around girls i was at that age i was i was experiencing resistance and i couldn't i couldn't wonder why why was this happening to me and of course it was the early things.
And mum and dad, I think it's important. You know, we must look at mum and dad.
You know, if we're having problems in this era of life, we must look at the relationship that we've had with mum and dad or what they've gone through. And what I'd experienced at an early age is my mum had always struggled with being a social person.
And I looked at, I think, why? Why does she suffer from this? Never really had proper friends and all that kind of stuff. And she lost her mum at a young age.
She lost her mum when she was 11 years old. Her mum was 30, and she died on her honeymoon from taking the birth control pill.
It was tragic. She was getting married to her second husband.
And then her father, my granddaddad lost interest in the whole family basically through his because he got interest in his new love interest so essentially my mum grew up without any sort of support you know with through the parents would give you and it really meddled with her self-confidence and

self-esteem so i've seen how limiting life can be when you don't have social skills and confidence and didn't realize that didn't realize that was an influence for me on my path until later on my dad's

my dad's always been more of like

my dad's always been more of like,

you know, my dad runs his own business

and he's always been fanatical about fitness

and, you know, run marathons,

coach down the boxing gym,

all the fitness classes and stuff.

So again, that's something else later in life that i realized where i get the coaching element from right so that's the crazy how it's crazy how we we can see these patterns that emerge inside of us based on our parents i had relationships in the past where i realized oh my gosh i'm just like my mom and dad in the sense that we never talk about anything real.

We only talk about, quote unquote, the weather. And I thought, I think I need to be a bit more vulnerable and open.
And it's not to say, that's no judgment of my parents. It's just something that maybe I picked up from them and I needed to make a change there.
Exactly.'s seeing what you know what we experience from them and and having a building awareness around it and go oh okay that's why i'm like this but it doesn't mean i have to be like this it's just why i am like this the same thing why you might be drawn into dysfunctional relationships or you know people that are emotionally distant yeah probably because one of your parents was absent right or you've been let down from your earliest reference points of who was supposed to give you love your parents so you find it incredibly difficult to give your everything to someone because you feel that there might be this might be the second time someone lets you down through a love dynamic relationship so there's a lot of stuff like that um but yeah like that's that's kind of like the roots of it all um I found all this stuff and I started teaching my friends, you know, started teaching my friends. Didn't want to, to begin with, to be honest, because I thought I found something.
I was like, wow, I'm going to get all the girls. And I realized I hit a ceiling by sort of keeping it to myself at the beginning.
You know, I was going out and I was trying different things that I wouldn't normally be doing in social situations. Do you have a Hall of Fame moment? I guess I'm asking you to brag.
I'm giving you permission to brag if you you want to a night where you went out and approached the most beautiful woman there or you said something

it was really self-amusing or just a moment where you just like stepped up and had a hero moment

any moments from your dating past jump out to you there's been so many you know there really has

because um like the early that there's like in my early early days like like 20s like

I'm sorry. has because um like the early that there's like in my early early days like like 20s like some of the earliest breakthroughs like I remember there being like going to this club and it would be like this place we go every Tuesday it was marked like an every Tuesday sort of uni sort of people and you know very sort of young place and it was always these two girls that were like the girls that everyone sort of had a crush on you know and it might have been

that they were more attracted to the guys that were maybe like a year older than you you know

like and worked out a little bit more you know wore a tighter t-shirt you know i wasn't part of

the tight t-shirt crew you know so i had to work it a different way um but i remember like we went out and we went to a friend's gig first of all it was a different place around the corner and you know always supporting my friend i've got big passion for music always have done so we're supporting our and they played. And then what the guys wanted to do after the gig was just sort of sit around

and just sort of drink and sort of bum around with the band.

And I knew next door the place was heaving with girls.

And I was like, I was getting anxiety.

I was like, guys, what are we doing here?

And I said to my friends, like, look, let's get out of here and we went next door a few of us came and um but then we had a little place and everyone's sort of drinking and no one was really making any moves approaching or interacting and i i'd always use these sort of social events to get myself out there and practice and I'd splinter off I go right I'm going to the bathroom and then but what I would do is I'd approach two women or a group or something something would happen you know it'd have to happen I'd I'd need to walk away of something every night you know a new experience so I approached these two girls they were the most attractive girls in there and i can't remember exactly what i said but i just remember that night being a huge breakthrough for me because i had the courage to approach those two beautiful girls in the place and they were together or separately they were together okay yeah they were together that's intimidating for some men. Maybe not you at that time.
Maybe it was. Oh, it certainly was.
It certainly was. And that's why it took me such a long time to have the courage to approach girls of that beauty at the time.
You know? I just remember walking away thinking, wow, it wasn't as bad as what I thought it would, as how it would go. Like, wow.
And then I start thinking, what else is possible? Like, this is crazy. Well, I love that story because it reminds me of the importance of turning what you think is something scary or fearful and using it to your advantage.
What I mean is, and tell me if you agree with this, I'd love to hear your view, but I've noticed that women know how hard it is for men to approach them, many of us. And so when you approach a woman who's with a friend, or with a guy there, and you still have the courage to walk up and shoot your shot, the fact that you're doing a higher difficulty level can really spark some attraction in her because she realizes boy this guy doesn't care he just came right up to me yeah exactly that's an opportunity so basically the scarier and opening a quote-unquote set is the bigger the group the hotter the girls that's more of a chance to create something because you're gonna you know high risk high reward risk, high reward, right? 100%.
The reality is, I mean, you're absolutely right, you know, because it's given off clues like, wow, this guy goes through life and gets what he wants. I feel I'm going to feel safe around this guy, you know, like he's just going to be handling shit.
But the reality is of the groups, they're easier. A lot of think a lot of people think, well, the god there's so many of them it's this it's not difficult it's just different and think of it they can afford to lose one you know if you hit it off with one they can afford to lose one if it's just two girls you know you've got a bit of a situation there like you they're they're with each other you know you can't split a one off um but i will tell you because i've been writing a little bit recently about breakthroughs and another one was you know one of my first daytime approaches like i never done it i never really did it it was such a taboo like how mad is that like i think it's because conventionally like you that's where we meet people in in evening right normally it's it's not frowned upon to maybe sort of meet someone at a bar but like to interrupt someone's day you know i'd be like hey you know saw you over there.
Like, that was so taboo for me.

And I remember fantasizing about doing it.

I remember I was on a bus.

I was on the top layer.

And I saw these two girls.

I didn't see them on the bus, but I saw these two ladies, like, get off the bus.

And I looked out the window and I thought, I've got to do it.

I've got to do it.

I've got to go down there. I've got to go and say something.
You know what? And I didn't do it. You didn't? I didn't do it.
But when we were talking earlier about the pain that you have to be experienced to be motivated to do or not do, that was such an important emotion and experience I needed to feel because next time i did do it i was in a shopping mall it did help i was a bit hung over at the time right um i had that moment that we've all experienced that exchange of eye contact and I said to myself, you know, know we've got to create that buzz phrase of do it I said Johnny just do it I went over there and I opened up the interaction and nothing amazing was really exchanged to be honest it was just the impact of doing I got her number she became my girlfriend for two years wow that was and i was again i was just like whoa another ceiling i've just broke through here like that's fantastic so you said never again about not talking to a woman you wanted to talk to and the next time you made it right and it paid off for you in a huge way obviously yeah don't get me wrong i had a lot to learn i was very young about girls i mean that was you know i was an absolute doormat in that relationship you know there's a lot of things that i learned not to do and how to behave in that one but those lessons were what would have come for me later on down the line you know i trained so i quick story that your story reminds me of this. I trained myself through hard knocks to punish myself in a positive way when I wimped out.
And so if I saw a woman I had to talk to, but I didn't, I talked myself out of it, I would notice it and I would punish myself. I would say, all right, you now have to do the hardest approach there is to get leverage on myself.
So I'm in a park in New York City. So this is 10, gosh, 10 years ago at this point.

But there's a woman I wanted to approach. I didn't.
I talked myself out of it. She walked

away. And I said, you know what? All right, I'm going to talk to the most beautiful girl I see.

I don't care how awkward it is. And I saw this vision walking across the street, across a walkway.

She was wearing a fedora, pencil skirt, very curvy, really pretty. And I said, oh, I got the perfect line.
And I'm going to walk up. And I walked up to her.
The second I got there, a gentleman who was down on his luck, sort of cat called her, said something like, hey, look at those moves, girl. And I immediately switched to something not planned.
And I said, hey, I'm sorry. I just wanted to come over and apologize.
My dad is so rude. So good.
Yeah, I love that. And she lit up.
She said, and I quote, she looked at me and said, you're way better at hitting on me than other guys. So to me, there were like two quick lessons there.
A, take immediate action if you can if you forgive yourself but take right action and then also it's fine to have an opener but if you can find something spontaneous that's usually going to go best i've found absolutely i mean there's always oh and she became my girlfriend six six months oh wow i mean that's that's the that's the thing i mean like if you look at it people are fatigued with the apps okay the the the online landscape that swipe right left mechanism like we're just seeing it and let's just say there's a group of girls and they're talking about how they met their partners right they go around the table oh how did you meet your partner oh he was my boy okay you shagged your boss at work what about you oh we met on tinder oh okay cool what about you oh you know i was i was walking down the street this guy tried to hit on me i blew him off then this other guy told me it was his dad anyway cut long story short we've been going out ever since this is my bloody husband now you, like it's the story that they're going to be telling again and again and again. So however ridiculous it is, that's the motivator.
It's the story. I love that one.
It's great. And Kat and I were asked that many times.
Hey, how'd you guys meet? Her face lit up. Yeah.
And that was a big moment for me. me okay let's finish up with a few fun quick short answer short question short answer rapid fire i'll even partake in these i'll answer my own questions one question i was curious to ask you because you've been doing this a while is what is one piece of advice that you used to give men that you no longer believe in or that you've changed your mind about for For me, I used to tell guys, oh, women want cocky.
Be cocky. Because when I was coming up, quote, cocky funny really helped me.
But then I realized as I evolved as a coach, that works for some men, but it's not for everybody. And I've adjusted that to be more playful or be cheeky.
But if and only if that's your personality, that's me. What about you? Anything that you used to teach that you say, ah, I don't believe that anymore? It's a good question.
I think my mind goes, well, we just spoke about it a little bit now, but the apps and the online space. Like, I'm very anti-app, to be honest, at the moment.
I acknowledge it is a path, path right and i definitely have immediate reference of it working for people um but the statistics show that you know it's 20 percent of people are getting success on there right so unless you are doing an extraordinary job of marketing yourself right which a lot of us that find ourselves you're getting help in this place i'm not good at it's best to save yourself the frustration because it's not a substitute for going out there and living a more social life yeah and i think i was working with one particular person that's come to mind. And the pattern that that person was experiencing was to come out long-term relationship, build themselves back up, become more market friendly, so to speak.
And it wasn't working out with with the guys this is a lady that i was working with

um it wasn't working out every time that she was meeting these guys like one guy was like married on the sly sort of seeing her you know uh another guy just just wanted something casual like those there was no. And I said, you've got to get back to work on your social life.
That's where you meet people. That is where it happens.
And I think we get caught in that trap of just using online as a substitute for living a social life. Great advice.
I see it as a second funnel to bring more dating options into your life almost like a business needs multiple funnels of clients customers your dating life when you're a single guy it's good to have multiple leads coming in and online dating is a great source of leads if you can create a profile that does that but i never want a guy to feel like he has to to in the online dating ghetto. You want to have the freedom to meet people out in the real world.
I believe your social circle should be wherever you are. Yeah, absolutely.
Well, you know, as I said, like, one of the first things we spoke about was reconnecting with yourself. Yeah.
Maybe write down five of those things that you enjoy. I think go off and find communities around that.
Yeah, well, that was going to be my next question, which is apart from dating, apart from dating advice and dating strategies, what are some non-dating related skills or pursuits that you recommend our listener consider to just make him more holistically, socially healthier which will indirectly help his dating life but it's just about being a more holistically social guy yeah it's off the back of what i just said really i mean if i was to is that if i was to think about something that i lost touch with right it music. I used to be very passionate about music,

particularly dance music, supporting friends and bands and stuff, even making music. And I got so work focused over a certain period of years that that kind of fell to the wayside.
And it wasn't until a friend of mine invited me to an event where the music that was being played had certain aspects to stuff that I used to listen to. And I was so thankful for him taking me there because it opened up a whole new community and group of friends for me.
And what that then did, it put me in landscapes where I could, you know, I was meeting women off the byproduct of doing something I was already enjoying. Yeah.
You know? And it just kept on snowballing. It just did.
But if you don't have that, then it's to be hard you know i'm speaking a lot about that with the guys i've got my online community and we and one guy he's a he he he wants to be in a band and i said well and he's struggling to find people to be unreliable people you know they're waking up and they're supposed to do a band practice one's got drunk the night before or got high or waking up in some bird's bed or something unreliable i go listen what you want to do is go to the um the open mic nights and we i did a bit of scouting for him actually because I found that world quite interesting also.

And so now what he does,

he goes around to these open mic nights and he's making friends there.

You know, he's, you know,

and again, being in that world,

he's got confidence.

He's got wisdom.

So he's got status.

He's more attractive.

Yep.

It's just the play.

I can't agree more.

For you, it was music, it sounds like.

For him, it was open mic night.

For some of my guys, it's been stand-up comedy.

It's great.

Cooking classes, music, taking up instruments.

I took improv acting for over a decade.

And I essentially didn't realize I was doing it at the time,

but I was buying into this wonderful community of people, like-minded nerds like me, who liked comedy, who liked improv. And I found a tribe and I met some women there and dated some of them, met a lot of friends.
And it just added so much value to my life, having that, finding my tribe. Yeah.
And let's just say that you actually do date someone from those communities.

There's more accountability because on the apps, you can just go, you know, you can meet someone. They can decide, you know, I'm going to be a dick.
You know, I'm going to be a dick and, you know, I'm going to get away with it because there's no person, there's no mutuals between us, you know. and a encounter that.
But when you're dating someone in communities and stuff, you would have thought you're not going to be seeing too much of the worst of someone. Because it's going to come back.
Yeah. Last question.
I typically end podcasts by saying to my listener, hey, talk is cheap, information is overrated, action is underrated. Here's something I want you to do this week.
I'd like to ask you to do that if you're okay with it. I'd love to give that job to you.
Is there one specific action or step that the guy listening to this episode should do this week that will help him either in his dating life or his overall social situation to become a more attractive guy um what would you like our listener to do yeah say say yes to your next invite right i think we get invitations every day like i've got an invite to something today and part of me inside is like can i be bothered do i really want to like, oh, God, it'd be a bit of an effort, you know, but just give yourself a 10% bit of effort to beat the shitty person that you were yesterday. And I guarantee the best nights or the best social experiences often come from those things that you push yourself to do.
You are so correct.

Quick story to support.

I swear, I swear, listener,

that Johnny and I did not plan this.

Here's a story.

Many years ago, I felt exactly the same.

My friend Eric said,

hey, come to this art gallery thing I'm being part of.

He was a curator.

And I'm like, I'm so tired.

I'm so, I don't know.

But I said yes to it.

And I met a woman named Rachel who became my long distance girlfriend for about a year. I loved her.
And we had this incredible conversation that night about art. Next thing I knew, we were on a date two nights later and having a Boston, New York, long-term, but really connected relationship.
And it started with me saying yes to that invite. Amazing.
That's damn good advice.

Thank you so much, Johnny.

This was a blast.

Oh, I forgot to ask you.

Have you ever seen the Jim Carrey movie, Yes Man?

Speaking of yes.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yes.

That's what the whole movie is.

The whole movie, he has to say yes to everything.

Yeah, well, there's another go and do.

Watch Jim Carrey, Yes Man.

Yeah, that's a really good movie to talk about taking the concept of saying yes to invites. He goes a little overboard, but hey, if you end up meeting Zooey Deschanel, that's a pretty good outcome.
Or your Zooey Deschanel, that's a pretty good outcome. Johnny, for the gentleman listening to this who is like, hey, I want to know more about this Johnny Cassell.
How can they find you? How can they potentially work with you or learn about your coaching or your content? Where should people go to find out more? Yeah, it's johnnycassell.com. So you've got all our offerings on there, like programs, online community, stuff like that.
At London Dating Coach. I'm mostly active on that social channel more than anything.
And if you punch my name... Yes, Instagram.
And if you punch my name into YouTube, you'll find content on there. I mean, we got over like, I don't know, was it like over 200 videos now? So there's lots of stuff you can learn for free.
Nice. JohnnyCassell.com, at London Dating Coach.
Is that right? At London Dating Coach on Instagram. Johnny, thank you so much for being here.
It was a blast, man. Great stuff.
Really great. Thank you, man.
You've been a great host. Really enjoyed it.
I try. I do try.
I've had a lot of coffee today. That helps.
And thank you for listening. You have about 19 million podcasts you can choose from.
You listen to me and johnny for an hour which is

freaking awesome thank you i really appreciate that don't forget your dream girlfriend she is

out there and she is gonna love you but she's gonna have to meet the real authentic you