Forget Pickup Lines: Why Vulnerability is Your Dating Superpower (with Lisa Hickey of the Good Men Project)

excuse me, I just saw you and I had to come meet you or else I'm going to have to join the monastery. You're my last chance.
It's either you or an inflatable woman. So fingers crossed.
Welcome to the How to Get a Girlfriend podcast. I'm your host, dating coach Conal Barrett.

And before we get to the interview you're about to listen to with Lisa Hickey from the Good Men Project, it's a great conversation. Lisa really knows women and men.
So we've got so many great tips coming your way. And as I listened back to the recording, I realized so many of them were about hidden mistakes that you and many men are making in their dating life that they don't even realize they're making.
And there's going to be a lot of great tips in the conversation I had with Lisa, but I wanted to start the episode by giving you four of the most common mistakes that men make that are killing their dating success, and they don't realize they're doing it. So here we go.
In no particular order, here are my top four or four of my top four. And then Lisa's going to have a lot more and stick around because at the very end of my interview with Lisa, she mentions the single biggest myth and mistake that single men make.
and I really do think it's going to melt your brain in a good way. And that's coming right at the very end of the episode with about two or three minutes left to go.
So feel free to fast forward to the very end if you want to, if you don't have much time, but if you have time to hang with me, let me give you four of the biggest mistakes that men make, that I've seen men make in my 12 years as a dating coach and my, frankly, my 20 years of working on my dating life. And the first one is trying too hard to impress women.
And the solution is you want to express, not try to impress. Here's a quick story to demonstrate this.
I was once on a rooftop bar in Los Angeles, a really cool venue called EPLP. And I'm with a brand new client at the time, a guy named Jason.
And Jason is a very well-to-do successful plastic surgeon in LA. And it was our first night out together.
And one of the things I do as a coach is I take my clients out to cool venues, lounges, bars, and I help them approach women. I give them tips.
I give them feedback. And that's what Jason and I were doing this night.
So we walk into this cool rooftop bar, quite literally in the shadow of the Hollywood Hills, beautiful women everywhere. It's a great venue.
And I say, all right, Jason, show me your stuff. What do you got? And he walks up to two women, gorgeous, thin, stylish LA beauties.
And I just said, yeah, let me watch and observe. He walks up to these two women and he takes out, he doesn't say anything right away.
He takes out his business card, a black and gold business card. He hands it to the two women.
And he says, hey, I'm a plastic surgeon, a Beverly Hills plastic surgeon. And he hands them his card.
And the women were confused. They were, one of them put her hand up to her nose self-consciously.
They looked at each other like, what is going on here? Almost like they thought he was trying to get business, but he was trying to impress them. And then they realized, they gave themselves a kind of a chagrined, embarrassed look.
And they realized, oh my God, this guy, this is his pickup line, his business card. And they basically said, nice meeting you, which is polite woman code for, we're not interested, dude.
And they walked away. And I took him aside and I said, don't do that.
Don't try to impress women. Bottom line is, one of the biggest mistakes men make is trying to show off their status or their money or trying too hard to impress a woman.
And by trying to do that, you usually accidentally lower your stature in a woman's eyes. Because if you're trying to impress her with money or your Lamborghini or your cool job or something that you think is going to be impressive, that's going to come off as try hard.
It's almost like you're overcompensating for not being attractive enough and in her league, so you're trying to make up for it. And I did this so many times myself back in the day.
I used to try to make women think I was somebody I'm not. And I would talk about, oh yeah, so I'm into scuba diving and I do all these adventurous activities outside.
Total bullshit. I was lying because I wanted to impress them and it never worked.
So big mistake number one is trying too hard to impress a woman. And the fix for this is to express.
Don't impress. Express what I call man to woman communication.
Basically express that true, real, most authentic side of you and essentially give her good emotions. Make her giggle, make her laugh, or make her be into the real you or try to rather than trying to impress her.
There is nothing more impressive than a woman than a guy who is expressive and holding her interest because he's sharing his real true personality, his sense of humor, his vulnerability. So basically, be authentic.
Here's another second big mistake men make. It's not flirting with a woman out of fear that she's going to think you're creepy.
Have you ever wanted to kiss a woman on the first date? Or forget about kissing. Have you ever wanted to give a woman a compliment or make some kind of flirtatious move or say or do something flirty, but you didn't do it because you thought, oh, don't be creepy.
Don't be weird. Well, that's a mistake.
It's your job as a man to make moves in dating. Dating is a dance.
Dating is a dance and our job as men is to lead that dance. And a woman's job is to say yes or no.

Either way is fine, but we want to lead that dance.

So don't make the mistake of not flirting with women

or waiting for 14 signals from her

before you feel like you have the green light to flirt with her.

You want to be the one to flirt first.

You want to be the one to lead that dance. So here's a quick solution to help you do that.
The next date you have, or the next woman you talk to out in the real world, you know, like in a social setting, don't do this at work, but do this in the bar, or do this the next time you chat up a woman out, you know, at the gym or your favorite coffee shop. I want you to give her a compliment about something you notice about her as a person that's not about her body or her measurements, as attractive and lovely as her body and measurements might be.
Find out something about her that you find charming and tell her and use the word charming. You could say, you know what's really charming about you? It's the way you, I'm just, I don't know.
It's the way you giggle and laugh when you ask a question. Or it's the way you look up to the right and bite your lip when you're thinking.
It's so charming when you do that and smile when you say it. So that's a little, small, little flirting move, the charming compliment.
It's very gentlemanly, and it's not going to, there's nothing creepy about it. And big picture, the aha moment I want you to have here is realizing that, you know, it's not creepy to flirt with a woman.
It's not creepy to let a woman know you find her interesting and attractive and you want a date with her or that you're attracted to her. There's nothing creepy about that.
What is creepy is only making it about a woman's body or looks. That's creepy or can be creepy because it makes her an object and that's no good.
And the other thing that's creepy is a guy who goes on a date with a woman or who likes a woman, and he doesn't flirt at all. He just treats her like a friend.
That's pretty creepy. Hiding your feelings, hiding your interest out of fear.
I'm not saying you are a creep. Quite the opposite.
I know you're a great guy. I know you're a gentleman.
I know you're a sweetheart because I'm all those things too. And if you're listening to this, it's probably because you resonate with what I'm about.
But a woman's going to mistake not making moves for creepy. So it's way creepier to want to make a move and not do it than to flirt and make some move.
Okay, here's a third mistake men make, which is being indecisive on dates. Not leading on dates, being indecisive.
Be a man with a plan. Plan the date.
Come up with the idea for the first date. Suggest the when, the where, the what.
And of course, get her sign off on it, but you're the one who leads that dance. As opposed to, you know, never ever say these words.
Never ever say to a woman, so what do you want to do? Or at least don't, I'm not saying don't get her input, but don't leave it to her to plan it. You're the man, be a man with a plan.
Women love decisive men. Okay, and I think the fourth and final mistake I want to talk about right now is, yeah, it's the big one actually.
It's kind of what this whole podcast is about, which is not being real, not being your genuine, real, authentic self, putting on a mask with women.

The most common one would be playing it cool or pretending to be extra, extra nice and supplicating.

Nothing wrong with being nice, by the way.

But we don't want to be supplicating on a date.

You don't want to put on a fake mask of like, everything she says is amazing and perfect

and oh my god, I hope she likes me.

That's not authentic.

It's also not authentic to wear some fake alpha male mask.

Don't wear that mask.

It's also not authentic to

hide your true self. And playing it safe is also inauthentic.
So I think the biggest mistake that men make is just putting on some kind of a mask. The mask I used to put on back in the day was, I'm nice, funny, Connell, but don't flirt.
That's creepy. Don't take chances.
Don't say something that she might not like. And it was only when I made a big shift toward being what I call radically authentic, when I let my smart ass side come out, and my sweetheart side, and my nerdy side, it wasn't until I really learned how to channel the real me that women started to really, really fall for me.
So that's the fourth and biggest mistake I think men make is being inauthentic, wearing a mask, not showing their true best selves to women. Because don't forget, your most authentic self is you at your most attractive and women want to meet that version of you.
Okay, those are my four big mistakes men make and the solutions for each of those mistakes. And now let's talk to Lisa Hickey of The Good Men Project.
And don't forget, stick around to the very end of the episode, because Lisa is going to share the biggest mistake that men make, the fifth of our five big mistakes men make that you might be making. So enjoy Lisa Hickey.
Thanks for listening. Hey, welcome back to the How to Get a Girlfriend podcast.
I am your host, dating coach Conal Barrett. I'm here to help you learn to flirt, get a great girlfriend, and do it by being authentic.
No sketchy pickup artist moves needed. And today I am really thrilled to welcome an extraordinary guest.
Her name is Lisa Hickey. Lisa is the founder of the Good Men Project.
And under her leadership, the Good Men Project has reached over 3 million unique visitors every single month. And the Good Men Project leads a global community that is dedicated to exploring modern masculinity.
And through her work, Lisa empowers men, especially single men, to grow, to learn, to navigate the rocky waters of dating and relationships, and to do it with integrity and purpose and authenticity and as a friend to women. And her efforts, I'm just such a fan of her efforts.
They illuminate what it really means to be a man in today's world. So Lisa, your insights are really helping men today.
Thank you so much. It's an honor to have you here.
Oh, it's an honor to be here. I'm very excited for this.
And stick around until the end of today's episode, because at the end, Lisa's going to save what is, she said, arguably her number one biggest dating tip that she thinks men need to know. And she knows men very, very well.
Also, you can learn more about the Good Men Project by going to goodmenproject.com. And you can also go to the Good Men Project's new substack.
It's all about dating. It's gmpdating.substack.com.
And oh, by the way, every so often you might see a column show up by yours truly. I occasionally write a advice column that appears on the Good Men Project where men like you ask questions.
So that pops up now and then. And you can also find out more there.
Okay. Let's talk about men.
Let's talk about dating. Let's start with this question, Lisa.
The Good Men Project has started for over a decade now, been starting a global conversation about men and masculinity. What inspired you to create it? And how do you help single men today? Thank you.
Yeah, I love talking about the origin story of the Good Men Project. So we really started, it was when I had met a venture capitalist by the name of Tom Matlack, and he was

putting together a book of men's stories. And at the time, I was doing social media, I had done marketing, advertising, and so he wanted some help promoting the book, getting him on Facebook.
and um so he he was telling me about the book and he said it was all

story Facebook. And so he was telling me about the book and he said, it was all stories of men and a defining moment in their lives.
And he said, what was so interesting was that when he asked men about a defining moment in their lives, they all said some variation of the same thing, which was, I thought I knew what it meant to be a man. I thought I knew what it meant to be good.
And I realized I didn't know either of them. And I was so blown away by that insight.
My first thought was, oh, men have problems too. Of course I should have known, but sometimes we get so inside our heads that nobody else is going through these struggles, and especially men who don't tend to talk about them because of society's pressures to not do that.
So, you know, I helped Tom Matlack launch the book.

We did the regular book tour, but then at the end of it, we were like, how could we make this even bigger? How can we really spark a conversation about how men's roles are changing today? Like, how it just seems like change is happening so fast that we can't keep up with it. And how can we get inside the angst that men are going through, whether it's, you know, for dating or other relationships or parenting or just the pressures of the world today.
So that was when we came up with this idea to start this online platform to get men to contribute their stories, to really get deep into the weeds about what is going on with their life today and how we could create tools and stories of other men and connect people and really build a vibrant community that could help change men's lives for the better. You said the word angst.
It's a good word. Did say the word angst.
There's a lot of angst going around. A lot of angst going around for men and people in general.
What about in relationships or for single, Like the man listening to this is probably, definitely single.

He's a bit on the shy side.

Nice guy.

Total gentleman.

Sweetheart.

And he wants a great girlfriend.

He wants some dates.

But he also has some angst too.

Maybe he doubts himself.

Maybe he's not sure.

Is it okay to make moves

or is that creepy and weird to make moves in dating? Where would you like to start with some angst that men deal with today that maybe they can get some help with at the Good Men Project? Yeah, well, I'm sad to say we have not solved the angst problem. We have not gotten it to go away completely, in part just because, you know, things are getting tougher out there.
There's the whole rise of technology, which I think has made it harder for men to get those authentic connections, which they seek. There's the pressure of society to like, you know, don't say the wrong thing, you'll get in trouble.
So there's a lot of pressure on men. And I think I would try to, I would ask men to think to themselves, are the stakes really that high? Like, is this one interaction really going to be as important as I think it is? Or can I use this as just practicing making better relationships? Can I use every interaction as a way to have fun with people, to connect with people, to really understand how to develop relationships? And so I think that, you know, helping them be present in the moment, helping them be confident, helping them understand what's great about themselves, what they're bringing to the table, and also being able to connect with the other person, like really think about the other person and get outside of their head a little bit.
Yeah. You mentioned high stakes and how it can feel very high stakes and high pressure to put some kind of romantic card on the table or take a risk.
The very first chapter of my book opens with a scene where I'm going out to meet women for the very first time in the real world. I had never approached a woman in my life until my late 30s.
And moments before I was about to walk onto this rooftop bar in New York City with my first coach back in the late 00s, I first had to walk, I went into the men's room stall and I had a panic attack. I started shaking and I started getting the dry heaves and I wasn't drinking.
It was all from this story I was telling myself about, oh my gosh, it is so high stakes. What's about to happen? I'm about to find out whether or not I am

worthwhile as a man in the eyes of these women, which is a silly thing now that I look at it 15 years later. But boy, it felt high stakes.
Talk about angst. That was a very angsty moment for me.
Well, that thing you just said about, you know, am I worthwhile as a man, as a man, that is what we hear over and over. Like society puts such pressure on men to be this perfect idealized version of a man.
And what we find is that the more men can be their authentic selves to know what is really great about themselves and to understand how to forge these deeper relationships, the better off everyone's going to be. Yeah.
Do you have any insights into how the typical man who goes to the Good Men Project or who might be listening today, any advice on how he can start to lower the stakes for himself and get in touch with what he offers and get in touch with his worth and stop worrying about his lack of worth? Yeah, I think there's a couple of different ways. So one is by, you know, one of the things we say is if you want to develop self-esteem, go out and do something esteemable.
So continue to try to like take actions that bring value to your own life. You know, go out and connect with other men as well as other women.
Go out and do something great for your community. Go out and learn a new skill.
Take a class, not to meet women, but because there's something you really want to learn that you want to be excited about. Figure out what your passions are.
Figure out what's worked well in the past, even if it's with non-romantic relationships, right? Like, surely there are relationships you have that do work. Maybe it's, you know, guys that you work with.
Maybe it's people you play sports with. Maybe it's your family.
What is it about those relationships that work? And I think that helps bring the stakes down it's like oh you're just trying to make a connection with another human being that's really all it is so um i think those are some of the things that we would we would tell them i love the idea of making sure you pursue some passions

in life, things that you're passionate about. I have my clients in the very first week of working with him, I say, all right, let's get you a passion project that you're excited about that's new.
It could be reading the book he blew off in college, Connell said, projecting his own past screw-ups on this podcast.

It could be taking a cooking class.

For me, it was taking a cooking class. which Connell said, projecting his own past screw-ups on this podcast.

It could be taking a cooking class.

For me, it was taking improv and acting classes,

which was something I did just for my own self-improvement progress,

but also I realized, wow, this is really helping me talk to women,

get better at talking to women,

because I can talk about my fun improv class I took, and maybe I've learned some fun new skills, like conversation skills. Is that what you mean by passion? Finding things you're passionate about? Yeah.
It's like things that you're excited about that get you up, that make you eager to get out of bed. But i think the improv is a great example because it's something you're excited about but it's also developing skills so that you can um you can use those in any conversation right like that's what improv's all about it's like someone will say something and then you have to keep that conversation going.
So that's a great way to give skills and also do something that you're excited about. Yeah.
I think that people just are drawn to the good emotions that come from passion and excitement. Like if I may ask you, we didn't plan any of this except for a couple little notes before you and I talk, Lisa.
What are a couple of things in your life right now that you're excited about or passionate about? Oh, wow. I have like so many.
So I'm always excited about the Goodman Project. Like I get up in the morning and I carry my laptop around while I'm like cooking breakfast so that I can like keep working on things.
Multitasker. Very impressive.
I'm a multitasker. Yeah.
But so, for instance, we started, you mentioned the dating newsletter that we start on Substack. So people can sign up for these newsletters.
They get three articles a week on dating tips and advice. Your articles on the dating advice column that you've written for us will be included in those.
Thank you. But so Substack is a social media platform.
So it gives you practice in talking to people because you have to learn to connect to other people in the community. And those are the types of things that get me really excited.
Like, what can I put on the Substack that people will really connect with, they'll respond they'll talk about and then that that makes me say oh this is what's important to men and to people who are looking for dating advice you know it just helps give feedback in real time so i get really excited about that i'm i'm brand new to sub stack in fact the goodman Project dating Substack, spoiler alert, it's the first time I ever went to Substack. Well, that's a good reason to go.
Grandpa Connell is learning a new skill set today. So when you go on Substack, you're interacting with people or you have conversations with people? You do.
So it's sort of a, it's a multitasking social media platform. So it's, it has the newsletter, so you can just choose to get the newsletter in your inbox.
So you'll get articles once, twice, three times a week from people that you follow, or you can go on their thing called notes where it's, it's more like a twitter or facebook type of thing where you are actually talking and interacting with people okay that sounds great any practice a man can get in interacting and socializing with others anyone that's a good thing in 2024 almost 25 being able to understand the art of connection, of communication, and just learning how to express yourself in a hopefully real, authentic way and helping other people feel good about doing that. That's so much of dating in my book.
So much of dating. And just for the record, you should be doing this offline as well as online.

But, you know, one advice I give is just to try and connect people everywhere.

Like if you're going to the grocery store, you know, it doesn't matter who they are.

It's not that you're going out and like seeking to pick up women at all these places.

What you're doing is practicing making an authentic connection with anyone

so that you know what it is about yourself that people respond to

so that you can figure out what you're interested in, right?

Like what is it about people that fascinates you?

What do you like most?

And then you'll be able to find your ideal partner if you know what it is you're looking for. You struggle with dating, right? Sure, you have a good job and cool friends, but you just aren't sure how to flirt.
The apps don't work for you. And sometimes women put you in the friend zone.
It's frustrating. Hey, I struggled with dating too.

As an introvert and a total nerd, I didn't just live in the friend zone.

I owned real estate there.

But I escaped.

Using the dating philosophy of radical authenticity,

which I've used to help thousands of men in 17 countries find love.

It's what I wrote about in my best-selling book, Dating Sucks But You Don't.

And radical authenticity is why psychology today called me the best dating coach in America. And now I want to personally help you attract your dream girlfriend.
So go to datingtransformation.com and book a free call with me. On our call, I'll tell you how my one-on-one coaching will help you find your dream girlfriend and you'll be doing it by flirting

with confidence and authenticity. No creepy pickup tricks needed.
So go to datingtransformation.com, book a free call today, and let my personalized coaching help you get a great girlfriend. Here's a simple tip, dear listener, that piggybacks off of something Lisa just said said once a day you can and should make a social effort in the real world to make somebody's day one percent better by saying something to them that might make them smile or might give them something i the the little trick i use with my clients lisa is i tell them you don't talk to people or even or potentially a woman you might want to date.
Don't talk to them through the lens of, what do I get from them? Do I get self-esteem from them? Do I get their phone number? Do I get love? That's going to make those stakes really high. I say, what can I give them? What's a quick little compliment or a question that I find interesting? And if you just make that person's day 1% better, it takes so much of the anxiety away of the self and makes it about making their day better.
So that's my tip of the day. Make one person's day a little bit better by giving them a compliment or asking them a question that you think they might be interested in hearing from you.
I love that advice. I just made it up.
Not literally, but. But you know what you said about compliments, one of the articles on our site that has gotten the most views out of any, and I'm talking tens of millions of views, is six types of compliments men would like to hear more often.
Because we don't, you know, there is some weird thing about like complimenting men, which people are sometimes afraid of, like giving real, true, authentic compliments. And so one example that they talk about in this article is compliment a man in a way that shows that you believe in him, right? That you have faith that he can do what he says to do or compliment him in a way that says they're trustworthy.
Like a compliment doesn't have to be about appearance or success. A compliment, you know, a compliment that really rings true is about some part of that person that you see that others may not.
And I feel like that's one of the best types of compliments. That's so great.
Complimenting somebody on something that you see that they don't. Yes.
That's like having x-ray vision. I love that.
One of my favorite tips, I've given this on recent episodes, so forgive me if I'm repeating myself, sir, listener, but I love to, on a first date or a first conversation with a woman who a man is interested in, I have him, I say, what is something that you find fascinating or attractive or intriguing about her that is not about her physical body alone? And tell her what that is. And find something, make it genuine, make it real.
And the example I've used a couple times is on my first date with my now girlfriend, Jess, I was just so blown away by how witty and funny she is. And I said, you know what's really attractive about you? We were on my rooftop drinking wine on our first date, and I said, you are so quick-witted.
I am always the funny one on a date. I'm just trying to keep up with you.
I'm not easily impressed. And I could see her guard dropped a little bit.
And she later told me how that melted her because a million men have said, oh, you're pretty, you're cute, you're this, you're that. But I was that one guy who said, boy, you're funny and quick-witted.
So I love the idea of trying to find that secret hidden part, the compliment that that person, male or female, it could just be a friend to your point. You can compliment a man.
There's nothing wrong with that either. Oh, hello? Nope.
Oh, okay, cool. I lost you for a second.
I thought I lost you for a second. And also specificity with a compliment.
Yes, specificity is a big one. I mean, I think that's when people get in trouble with compliments is that they just say something that sounds like anybody could have said that they themselves have said a million times before.
So it comes out almost robotic like but if you're really there in the moment with someone it like it's it's what you said when you met your now girlfriend it's like you're really focusing on something that got you to respond to them in a unique way so it's's not something that you could say to everyone, right? You wouldn't say that to every girl, every woman that you met. Well, you have this unique lens because you are the head of the Good Men Project, so you know about men, but you're also a woman.
And to an extent, I think you can speak for women, or at least I'm giving you permission to.

So you have this fantastic lens into both men and women. Can you share some insights into any, like one great tip was the compliment tip.

Make it specific.

Mean it.

Are there any things that you've noticed that men do in dating that you know for a fact women either do not like this thing or maybe they do like a thing and men should do it more often? Yeah, that's a great question. I think one thing that comes up a lot is when a man isn't actually listening and they'll interrupt a you know they're so quick to want to say what they have to say so it's almost like while the woman's talking they're in their own head trying to figure out what they're going to say next and they can't wait to say that so they must say this now.
Exactly.

So I know that that's one thing. I think that sometimes men take the self-confidence thing to the extreme, so they come off as arrogant, as if like, oh, I'm just better than anyone else.
So I think it's important to understand that self-confidence has to come from a place deep inside you that isn't that you're better than the other person, but that you're equals, equal but different in a way. You have your own things that are going to be totally unique.
Nobody else can bring to the table what you're bringing, but it does not by any means mean you're better than them. And so I feel like that's an important skill to have.
But what if you're just superior to everybody like I am? What if you're just the greatest person alive? I mean, what about people like me? That's okay, because you're you. No, I hear you.
I think that it's a nice balance to be able to, on a date or in a romantic context, first one or two dates, first couple conversations a man might have. You do want to feel self-confident or be self-confident but i like to i actually go out of my way to let a woman know that there's certain things i don't know anything about i would love for her my date to tell me all about this i remember i was on a i was this wasn't me one of my very first clients charles a doctor he was talking about dating a woman who taught Shakespeare in college.

And he said, I feel so insecure. I don't know anything about Shakespeare.
She's going to find

out. I don't know anything about Shakespeare.
She's not going to like me. And I said, dude,

you're a doctor. He was a doctor and he was a great dancer.
He kind of had a pit bull

look to him. I don't mean the dog.
I mean the performer. He had a pit bull vibe.
He had this cool, badass pit bull vibe. He was a doctor.
And I said, dude, you don't need to impress her. You're a physician.
You look like pit bull. You're a doctor.
Tell her, I don't know anything about Shakespeare. Let her be the one to teach you.
She'll love how good it feels to make her the expert. So there's nothing wrong with admitting that you don't know about something.
I think that kind of self-effacing, like a really confident man who knows what he's good at, what he knows about, combine that with maybe being self-effacing or vulnerable to show that you don't know everything. I don't know.
I think that's attractive to a lot of women. What do you think?

I love that. I think that's super attractive.
Yeah, I think in terms of attraction, that's like right up there in the top 10 in terms of what is attractive, I think. And why is that? Well, it's a combination of self-awareness, but also kindness in a way, in some funny way, because you're like really trying to understand the other person and what's unique about them.
And then you're, you know, what's unique about you? And when they when they say like you know sparks fly or there's chemistry it's like when you both get that about each other that oh this person is a little bit different than me but that's so cool and yet we're also vibing on some things that are similar I feel like that's when the sparks really start to fly. Yeah.

Yeah, I just, I love the idea of making her the expert in something. Or not making her, but helping her be the expert in what she's great at.
That's not something to be insecure about as a man. That's something that, if anything, it shows you're not insecure because you're willing to let her show off.
You get two people taking turns being experts at things they know about and teaching the other person. I think that's beautiful.
Exactly. It's almost like a little dance, you know? So yeah, I think that's great.
There's so much I don't know about. I mean, I'm in a relationship, but if I was single, I'd like to say, okay, I want this woman to teach me all about being a flight attendant or a pilot or whatever she knows about because I know nothing about that.
I'd be fascinated to learn that. And one thing I've learned is that people in general, and women in particular, really like it when the person they're talking to finds them fascinating, finds them interesting.
That just makes both of you feel really good. Absolutely.
Well, it also gets back to what we were talking about before with like passion, right? Like having something you're passionate about. So if you can get somebody to talk about something that they're passionate about, they're going to talk about that in a really excited way.
And then they're going to remember that conversation as having been really exciting because they were so excited when they were talking about it. So, you know, it all kind of connects.
It's like finding out what the other person is passionate about, getting them to share that with you, then having your enthusiasm rub off on them. And I just feel like that's when conversations get really exciting.
Let's talk about maybe some fun topics for dates or for texting exchanges, because maybe the most common question I get from men or it's in the top three is, what do I say? What do I talk about? What the heck do we talk about on dates? Are there any topics that come to mind that women, generally women, a lot of women like to talk about, literature, travel, movies, pop culture? What comes to your mind as a woman who also knows men really well? Yeah, I really think it depends on the woman. And that's why sort of seeing, you know, being an active listener, understanding like what is exciting to them personally.
Yeah. And diving into that.
But you had written a column once that talked about how to get away from the interview type questions and ask questions that were more fun and flirty. So I think one of them was something like, what's the best thing that happened to you today besides meeting me? I love that because that sort of has everything that we've talked about, right? Yeah.
Like you're trying to really find out something very specific about them, like what makes them happy, what, what their day is like, but then you're also a little self-effacing. You're also have a little humor in there you're obviously not um being taken seriously by saying besides me but it it comes across as very confident and yeah so so i just like love that question thank you it's so the idea there is that you're being so over the top almost arrogant that you're making fun of those kind of arrogant men.
But you also get some points for cheekiness that you're kind of getting your cake and eating it too. Cheekiness is a great word.
It's very cheeky. That's definitely my style.
And that's not for every guy. I'm all about being authentic and really finding what works for you.
So you don't have to say that if that's not you,

but if you're a natural born smart ass, like I am, I'm going to show that to my dates or, you know, I'm not dating now, but I'll show it to my girlfriend all the time. We're always, uh,

bantering back and forth, being smart asses with each other. Um, I was going to ask you something.

Oh, you're an author of, is it three books? Three books. They're actually on advertising and some of the best ad campaigns in the past, because that's what I did before I got into social media, before I started running the Goodman Project, I was in advertising.
Okay. That always helped, like, trying to think of, like, clever things to say.
Because if you can sell someone, like, a shoe, you can talk to them about anything. Yeah.
If you can sell a shoe to a person who's got a lot of shoes, then it's not really just about the shoes. Exactly.
Well, the reason I asked you about your being an author is what about the topic of, and I know it's going to change from woman to woman, man to man, the topic of books, culture. Is that a good topic for a date or is it more about how you talk about those topics? Yeah, no, I think it's a little of both.
Like, I think that things in the in the pop culture are good, because they're shared experiences, right? So if you're talking about a book that a lot of people know, it's not just something you've read, something they've read, it's something everybody has a point of view about. So that's why I do like, you know, it, again, it sort of depends on what the person's into, but whether it's books or movies or news events or, or just something where you can get a feeling of what their likes are, what their dislikes are, what they find interesting about things that are out there in the culture.
I think that's always a good conversation starter. Don't fast forward.
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datingtransformation.com slash flirty30 you're about to start confidently flirting with women going on dates and soon getting a great girlfriend go get your flirty30 speaking about something that's out in the culture you and I were messaging before this interview and you mentioned to me how it just seems that dating has gotten harder than ever for a lot of men. And one of the examples that you mentioned was I did a column for you a while back, and I answered a reader's letter.
A man was trying to find out if he should literally, a man who was not tall, like 5'5", 5'6", he asked a question. He said, hey, I'm thinking about getting my legs broken because there's something called leg lengthening surgery that certain people have.
And it's something that more and more men who aren't tall are having done to get a few inches of height. It's very painful.
Basically, the legs are broken in multiple places. And then for about a four, three to six month period of healing, after that healing period, the man is two or three inches taller.
And this is all to get dating success, all to help shorter men feel more confident or be more attractive to women. So just as that context, as backdrop, what does that say about the extremes people go to now for dating? What does that say about why dating is harder now than ever? Or is it harder now than ever? What do you think? Yeah, that question kind of broke my heart a little bit.
And what you didn't mention was that he also said that it cost $100,000 to get the surgery. And I was thinking, what could you better, you know, surely there are things you could better spend $100,000 on than that and to go through that pain.
So I think that I do feel like dating has gotten a little harder um there's a lot of fear there's a lot of divisiveness in the world right now um there's there's this feeling that you know of not being good enough or not knowing the rules it's not like what I hear a lot, and I'm sure you hear this too, is like, well, everyone else seems to know all the rules, but somehow I didn't get that inspection manual, you know. But yeah, the idea that someone would have to get their legs broken and be in pain and spend all that money because they think that another two inches of height is the one thing that's going to change.
I mean, that just seemed so sad to me. And I really liked your answer, which was, you don't need a more towering body.
what you need is a more towering self-confidence like yeah go into a room and just project what your good qualities are you know maybe it's being funny and if you don't know how to be funny that's something you can take an improv you. You can learn that.
You can learn that. It's a lot cheaper and less painful.
Exactly. A lot cheaper and less.
But it's funny because somehow I think that sometimes people think that would be harder. They think that it would actually be easier to have surgery that would be extrusionally painful than to go out and do something like improv where they might fail, it might embarrass them, it might make them uncomfortable.
And it's like, no, those are the types of things you should be doing. That's such a great point.
Back to something you said a little while ago, you talked about selfoubt and the fear of finding out you're not enough or feeling you're not enough. I think that is the deepest wound that hurts the most men.
And the fear of finding out you're not good enough, it's so strong. I once had a client, he is a firefighter out in Texas.
And he came to me and he said, Connell, I literally walk into burning buildings and save people's lives or try to. I don't even think about it.
He once fell through the kitchen floor of this house that was on fire. And he said, that's just the job.
That's just what I signed up for. He is

quite literally a hero. He's 20 times more heroic than anything I could be, at least in terms of putting yourself in physical danger.
But he could not talk to an attractive woman standing next to him at the bar. Because of the fear of, oh, what if she rejects me? What is that going to say about me as a man? And I've had Iraq war veterans who were in firefights and they did jaw-droppingly brave things, but can't walk up to a pretty girl and try to talk because of that fear of, oh gosh, what does that say about me as a man? So it's just so important.
And what's beautiful about the Good Men Project is part of your mission, I feel, is to help men see how good they are and how they're worth so much no matter what other people might think of them in that given moment. Exactly.
Yeah, I know. Boy, that breaks my heart, too.
The firefighter who is not brave enough to talk to a woman next to them. And, you know, I also want to say to men, it's like, as women, we're just humans too.
You know, we really are. So it's okay if you stumble.
You know, I think we talked a little bit about like sort of that self-awareness or self-effacing nature. Like, a mistake just own up to it like say oh my god i that must have sounded like the stupidest thing ever that i just said yeah and it's okay like just admit it and move on and don't worry so much about it like really try to get out of your own head and more into the moment.

Well said. Very well said.

Well, back to that first night I talked about my panic attack in the bathroom stall at this rooftop lounge in 2009.

Then I finally approached a woman, finally, for the first time in my 38 years, and it went fine.

It didn't go great, but neither did she take out a whistle and blow it and said this guy is creeping me out get him out of here she was just a pretty girl in a cowboy hat and and we talked for a minute or two and she walked away saying nice meeting you she she softly rejected me and i stood there thinking that's what i've been afraid of all these years that wasn't so bad that's what i was just dry heaving in the bathroom stall about oh my gosh this isn't that big a deal so the lesson there for my guys is is you gotta sometimes you just gotta do what's scary and usually you realize oh i gotta get into the lion's den but then you realize there's no lions here there's just kitty cats they're just people they're just women trying their best. Yep.
Okay. Let's wind, uh, let's wind down with some fun questions.
Uh, we've had some fun already, but let's have some more fun. Um, here's some fun questions that you and I were

talking about before we hopped on. Um, question number one, if you, Lisa of the Good Men Project

were to create a class called Love 101, working title,

and you were teaching this in schools, what would be the most important lesson on the syllabus for young single men looking to date and looking to form relationships?

So, by the way, I think this should be taught in schools.

You know, we spend so much time on, like, these hard skills, which are important. You know, math, science, reading, all of that, you know, should be taught.
But isn't love like the greatest thing of all? Like shouldn't we teach people how to actually love and have relationships and have authentic connections? I feel like we don't teach that nearly enough. So my course would be about, and some of these things that we've already mentioned, but really on how to be there in the moment with somebody.
Like how to have a back and forth that keeps going where you're acknowledging, you're

actively listening, and then you're acknowledging what they say, and then you're adding something

else to that. And then when that topic winds down, you move on to another one.
But you don't

jump from lily pad to lily pad. You don't keep

going in a bunch of different directions. You ask questions that go a little deeper.
So like that would be the first piece of it is just all about how to communicate in the moment. But then I also think there should be, it should be taught like how to follow up, right? Like sometimes you'll have a great date or you'll have a good interaction with someone, you know, a stranger maybe, and then you let it go because you don't know what to do next.
And again, I feel like this is something you can practice, like how to have ongoing relationships with people that last a long time. So, you know, another piece of advice might be to reach out to someone you haven't talked to in a while, even if it's, you know, not someone that you're looking to date.
Like, just like, how do you keep relationships going over time? So how to meet people in the moment, how to keep relationships going over time. And then I would say, how to have fun doing that all.
Because it, I, you know, we talked about angst in the beginning. So how to turn that angst into excitement, like how to use that angst to get past it.
You know, maybe it's just being brave or maybe it's just figuring out a way to make it fun, but how to turn that angst into excitement. So those would be the three things in my course.
I love it. I love it.
One of my favorite approaching tips is I try to help a guy take that anxiety and turn into something fun. So I'll have a client look at a woman who he wants to talk to at the bar, and I'll say, what are you really afraid of? It's like, oh, she's going to reject me.
And then I'll say, then what would happen? And I would have him exaggerate it two or three times. And I'd say, and I want you to walk up and say, okay, excuse me, I just saw you and I had to come meet you, or else I'm going to have to join the monastery.
You're my last chance. It's either you or an inflatable

woman. So fingers crossed.
All of a sudden we're turning that anxiety into something playful,

which is how I love to help guys have their breakthroughs. So I love that.
I love the angst

to fun. Okay.
Next question is if you in your esteem position at the Good Men Project could

I'm not going to be witty, or know exactly what to do for his partner? No wrong answer. What dating superpower or relationship superpower would you love to be able to give men? Yeah, I think I would love to give them the superpower of being vulnerable to really, you know if you're like, say you're afraid or make a joke out of it or

admit some of your failings or, you know, say that you had a bad day. I feel like, you know, it's like not really about reading minds because you can actually find out what's going on in someone's mind.
And the way you do that is by asking questions to getting them to like you don't have to read minds. You know, you can you can actually find out what someone's thinking by having a really great conversation with them.

So part of that conversation might include being a little vulnerable, putting yourself out there, like letting them see the real you and not being afraid, not having that fear of seeing the real you, minimizing those stakes a little so that it's not so like every sentence isn't so important. Wonderful.
Man, I wish I'd known that 20 years ago. I had that tip 20 years ago.
Speaking of what I just said, wish my younger self knew that. Last question, then we'll do your bonus tip, and then I'll let you go.

If you could go back in time, Lisa, you could choose the time. Five years, 10 years, 20 years, your choice.
If you could go back in time and give your younger self one piece of either dating or relationship advice, what would that be? so that advice would be don't go on a date only thinking of yourself. Like, like I screwed up so many dates because I was just there thinking, okay, okay, am I? What's it? What is he thinking about me? Does does do I look okay? Does he like me? Am I i going to say something stupid like i'm having a running conversation in my head with myself where does that mean my date sounds crowded in there so it's like how could i even have a conversation a real authentic conversation with the person sitting across from me when i can't even get out of the conversation that's going on in my own head.
So I would definitely tell my younger self not to do that. I love it.
I would tell my pre-approaching self from the late double zeros, hey, you're just going out to meet women. It's okay.
There's nothing at stake here. Your self-worth is not on the line.
You're just talking to women. Enjoy it.
But oh well, you live and you learn. Okay.
Let's answer that one final bonus question. What is the number one piece of a dating advice you think that men need to know that will help them from Lisa Hickey, The Good Men Project.
Thank you. This one is a little mantra that I think to myself all the time, like before I'm going into any sort of stressful situation or meeting someone new or someone that I really care about.
And it is seek to connect, not to impress. Because if you're trying to impress someone, who are you thinking about? You're thinking about you and how great you are.
And like, you're not thinking about them. But if you really focus on how do you have that connection with them, I find it to change everything.
So anytime before I go into any sort of relationship or any meeting someone new, I always say that to myself, not to impress. I love that.
Women aren't going on dates thinking, oh boy, I hope this guy impresses me. Right, right.
Exactly. And yet that's what we try to do so much, right? We sort of posture and we're like, oh yeah, you know, let me show you how rich I am or let me show you how smart I am or how handsome I am or whatever.
And I don't think you need to do any of that. Like bring your whole self and focus on the connection with the person in front of you yeah instead of trying to impress her try to connect with her and that will be really impressive to her exactly that's going to be more impressive than anything she's just going to feel like oh i feel so connected to this guy i don't know what it is and uh that's a way to impress without trying to impress what a great wise words to to end on.
Lisa Hickey, thank you so much for being here. Again, you can go to the Good Men, I'm sorry, go to goodmenproject.com, and you can also read some of my work there, but also just get so many great tips, dating, relationship.
Oh, you've got a whole hub on Good Men Project for dads, which I love. We do.
I love that. I coach a lot of single dads, and I'm just a pro-dad, even though I'm not a dad.
Anyway, goodmenproject.com, and then there's the gmpdating.substack.com of the new substack that is all about dating. And Lisa Hickey, thank you so much for being here.
Oh, thank you.

This was wonderful.

Thanks for having me.

And thank you for listening.

And don't forget, your dream girlfriend, she's out there and she is going to love you.

She just has to meet the real authentic you. So go out there, take authentic, courageous action, and carpe datum.

Seize the date.

Until next time.