Kara drags Matt back down the rabbit hole

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G'day, Matt Bevan here.

This is If You're Listening.

After last week's episode about the Oslo Accords, Kara and I still had a little bit of residual urge to find out more about Mona and Turja, the Norwegian couple who were instrumental in brokering that landmark agreement.

We were reading about the play, we were reading about the movie, and then suddenly, unexpectedly, Cara plunged into a rabbit hole, a very unexpected but oddly familiar one.

She has spent an entire day in the rabbit hole investigating this and I am told that it involves a trip to Mongolia, a former Australian Prime Minister, and Mona and Turja, and that the story is in some way wild.

What I have in front of me is some questions that Cara has written for me, and the answers are all blacked out.

So I don't know what the answers to these questions are.

I'm very much looking forward to Cara telling me.

G'day, Cara.

Hello.

Yes, I have been very much down the rabbit hole in this one.

I feel like I'm officially a mole person.

I haven't seen light in a day.

Yeah, yeah, your eyes still adjusting.

I have tiny little mole eyes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, so where are we starting here?

Where do you want to start?

It's taken me like three hours to even think of where to start this episode.

And I have landed on the Vivian Beaumont Theatre in the Lincoln Center.

I've got a link for you there.

It is a showing of the Oslo play on Broadway.

But also establish a second channel.

You know, built on the exact opposite model, not grand pronouncements between governments, but intimate discussions between people.

You know, held somewhere isolated, totally, where you and the PLO can meet alone and talk.

So, basically, this is a section from Oslo the play, which is based on Moni Yule and Toya Rodlarson, who broke with the Oslo Accords, as we know.

Tony award-winning play.

Tony award-winning.

It's been shown in London, it's been shown in New York, Tel Aviv.

It's won a lot of awards.

Apparently, it's very good.

I'd love to see it.

Okay.

So, this particular clip, though, is from when the play was shown at the Lincoln Center on May the 5th, 2017.

On that particular night, there was a huge amount of big wigs.

There were people from the UN, they were, you know, New York, aristocracy, kind of everyone who was anyone was there,

including one special guest.

Oh, yes.

And I wonder whether you have any idea who a special guest to one of the premiere screenings of Oslo in the Lincoln Center might be.

Well, I don't know, Donald Trump.

I can't imagine that this would be something that he'd be interested in in May of 2017.

He was kind of busy at that time.

He was the president.

I don't know, Carmel Harris, Hillary Clinton, stopped me when, you know, I don't know.

I don't know.

It was Jeffrey Epstein sitting a couple of rows back from the stage.

What?

What?

Ah, we're back here.

We're back here.

Okay.

We're back here.

This is where the rabbit hole started.

I was at the bottom.

The Epstein trapdoor opened up and I just climbed back in.

And so,

okay.

All right.

This is.

So Jeffrey Epstein was

in the front rows.

Of the Lincoln Center at one of the premier showings of this incredibly significant place.

Okay.

So, I mean, look, look, Jeffrey Epstein was...

He was an arts guy.

He was an arts guy.

He was a prominent New Yorker.

Correct.

I mean, 2017,

he's already been through his first conviction yes and his sweetheart deal he's served 13 months kind of in jail in sort of jail and been released in 2017 he's well it was around the time that he blackmailed Bill Gates I suppose

Look, he was still a prominent figure.

He had a lot of famous and important friends.

It's not entirely as surprising that he would be in the front row of Oslo.

Yeah, exactly.

So, this is what I wanted to get to the bottom of.

And to understand why he was there, we've got to look at one of our Norwegian peace brokers, Teria.

So, kind of going back, he had just broken the Oslo Accords.

Obviously, that was a huge deal.

And he did a stint in the Norwegian parliament for a while.

Then, he went and worked at the UN, special coordinator for the Middle East peace process.

Basically, he kind of did that through the early 2000s.

And then, from 2004 to 2020, he became the president of a think tank called the International Peace Institute, which works alongside the United Nations, the IPI.

Oh, yeah, that's a big deal.

That's a big thing.

So he resigned, but he kind of left in disgrace.

And it has something to do with a financial loan that he received.

And so I've got a little document for you to have a look at there.

Okay,

it says, promissory note.

For value received, the undersigned Turya Rode Larsen hereby unconditionally promises to pay to the order of Jeffrey E.

Epstein, a resident of the United States Virgin Islands, the principal amount of $130,000,

the unpaid principal balance of this note, and all accrued interest thereon shall be due and payable on December 31st, 2013.

What?

What is this?

Carl Road!

So to

day, he hasn't disclosed what that payment was for.

The only thing we know about it is that very top line for value received.

We don't know what the value was, something worth $130,000.

We actually don't know.

So just to be clear, this is an IOU note that is saying that Turya owes Jeffrey Epstein $130,000 plus interest to be paid at the end of 2013.

Exactly.

And here's the thing.

I want to underscore, as we've already said, that 2013, this is five years after Jeffrey Epstein has pleaded guilty to charges of soliciting prostitution with a minor, and he has also paid out compensation to women.

So, according to the Miami Herald, there were 36 victims.

So, I don't want to suggest that Toya had anything to do with what Jeffrey Epstein was doing at that time, but I think the optics of associating with this convicted sex offender, not the best look for a guy, in my opinion, who's running a peace organization.

Yeah, look, we have to be clear that Jeffrey Epstein was involved in lots of different things.

He was a philanthropist.

He was involved in donating money to help worthy causes in Africa.

He was involved in donating to the arts.

He was involved in lots of different charity work and he had lots of different friends.

But yeah,

if you must be associated with Jeffrey Epstein, you want those dates to be before 2006.

Yeah, exactly.

Because before 2006, you have some sort of plausible deniability that you didn't know that Jeffrey Epstein was up to any of these things.

After 2006, you really can't claim that.

It was well publicized that Jeffrey Epstein had pleaded guilty to these crimes and served time in prison.

And this is 2013.

Exactly.

And we also know that after 2013, Turya visited Epstein's house in Manhattan at least 20 times.

20?

At least.

20.

At least 20 times.

Some of my friends, I haven't been to their house 20 times.

My good friends, who I'm proud to know.

I don't even been to anybody's house 20 times.

No, no, no, no, no.

So he went to Epstein's house 20 times.

So obviously they have kind of a long-term relationship.

And this little payment of $130 isn't $130,000.

Sorry, $100,000.

$130,000.

But there was actually a bit of money transferred between the two of them.

And one of the payments involves Mongolia.

So I wonder what you know about the democratic system of Mongolia.

Anything?

Tell me.

What do you know?

The democratic system of Mongolia.

Yeah.

I know that it exists in some way.

It's

a more democratic place than either of its neighbours, that being Russia and China.

It has a highly urbanized population in Yulanbata.

That is the capital of Mongolia.

That's basically the only city, though, in Mongolia.

They really don't...

It's all that city, or you are like on a farm.

That's my entire understanding of Mongolia.

I've got one more video for you to check out.

This one is Toya on stage

with the President of Mongolia.

A few months ago I was in what in Mongolia is called Igir in the capital of Ulaanbaatar.

Igir, for those of you who are not familiar, is a tent-like structure covered with felt.

But this was no ordinary gir.

It was inside the presidential palace.

And it was beautifully decorated with paintings and artifacts recalling the rich history of Mongolia, who once was the largest.

They're basically announcing

what is called the Mongolian Presidential Advisory Agreement.

So it was this deal between the IPI and the Mongolian authorities to basically try and help Mongolia along with their democratic situation.

I guess to make them a more democratic country.

Sure.

I imagine this is the sort of work that the International Peace Institute is for.

This is what these types of people are all about.

So they're like, okay, how are we going to do it?

Let's get together six people who are all differently qualified in different ways, you know, diplomats, peace negotiators, these types of people, and we'll send them to Mongolia.

And Jeffrey Epstein?

Well,

no, but that's kind of...

Oh, okay.

So they said, okay, let's send these people to Mongolia to kind of meet with the government twice a year.

As part of doing that, they will receive a payment of $100,000 from the Mongolian government, which is a lot of money for that, but that's how these people roll.

And then this kind of strange email surfaces from Turya, which I've also copied into your redacted document.

Okay.

Subject.

Re-outstanding payments for Mongolia team.

I had dinner with Kevin yesterday evening and he said that we could keep his share.

For form's sake, we should send it to Jeff.

However, I am sure we will get it back many fold sent from my iPhone.

Please tell me who Kevin is.

Who is a famous Kevin that we all know?

Well,

I mean, it's Kevin Rudd, isn't it?

It's Kevin Rudd.

Yeah.

Okay.

Strangely, in 2018, Kevin Rudd was actually the chair of the board of the IPI.

Yeah, no, I remember this period.

Yeah, yeah.

And so it was in this capacity that he was asked to be part of this Mongolian advisory democracy board.

And he did attend some of those meetings, but he declined that $100,000 payment.

So that basically went back into the kiddie.

And instead of Toya saying, okay, like we can give this back to the Mongolian government, or maybe we can get somebody else along and give them the payment, he decided to give the payment to Jeffrey Epstein,

a person who wasn't in any way affiliated, nor did he have any skills, I suppose, in Mongolian democratic processes.

So

very strange that he would pay him that money.

If it is a repayment, that's very problematic.

I mean, it could be something else, though.

And again, unexplained why.

So this is according to DN, which is Norway's largest and most influential financial newspaper.

And they did a massive report, basically, into

Turia, into Epstein and into the relationship financially that they had.

Right.

And Kevin Rudd, who had no prior knowledge of these donations and said it was deeply disappointing.

So what happened next?

So in November 2019, when it kind of came to light where this money was going, Kevin Rudd, as the chair of the IPI announced that they would be donating a sum of money equivalent to all donations received from Epstein's Foundation to programs that support victims of human trafficking and sexual assault.

Right.

So, shortly after this Mongolian payment happens, a year later, Jeffrey Epstein is arrested and then dies in his cell.

In 2020, it kind of comes to a head because people start researching these payments.

And so, it turns out that these payments weren't the only two payments, and things were getting bad for IPI.

And so they decided to have KPMG do an external audit on the relationship between IPI and Epstein and Turia.

Okay.

And I've got the KPMG report here for you to have a look at.

Okay.

So if you can open that one up.

KPMG, International Peace Institute, KPMG Forensic Review.

Okay.

So if you scroll down, there's a lot of just very, you know, dense text.

If you go down to the executive summary page, which is on page five, you'll see kind of a layout of their relationship and all of the payments.

So there was actually way more than the two payments that we've gone into, a whole stack of payments.

Okay.

You'll see them detailed here.

Now, KPMG says after a thorough audit of IPI, there is no evidence that any laws or regulations were breached in the course of IPI and Mr.

Rod Larson's contract with Epstein and his entities.

But here's what the document lays out: KPMG identified five donations to IPI between the 1st of January 2010 and 31st of October 2020, totaling $650,000 related to Jeffrey Epstein.

So Epstein has donated $650,000 to the IPI over that decade.

KPMG also noted one reimbursement to IPI for a flight in the same period for $14,000 related to Jeffrey Epstein.

KPMG identified two payments for expenses totaling $302.36, that's very specific, related to Jeffrey Epstein.

Both expenses were submitted for reimbursement by Toyo Rodlarson for a lunch he had with Epstein in 2011 and flowers he sent to Jeffrey Epstein for his birthday in January 2018.

IPI provided documentation showing that Toyo Rodlarson subsequently reimbursed IPI for the birthday flowers expense.

The only IPI reimbursed expense was therefore $122.72 for a lunch in 2011.

So all this is to say that if you're sending somebody birthday flowers in 2018, which is the year before he died, for some reason using

your official IPI

using your work card, you're probably still friends.

You still have some sort of relationship, right?

Well,

yeah, I don't send birthday flowers to anybody.

I'd possibly have a better relationship with my friends if I did.

And so now, hang on, if you could scroll down to page nine of that document.

Okay.

Here there are a couple of extra big payments, and these ones are coming from a company called Gratitude America, which belongs to Epstein.

This is his company where he's moving money to and from other places.

So it's not a personal donation from him, but it is his finances.

Okay.

May 2017.

Reimbursement of tickets to the Oslo play.

$150,000.

I mean, I know Broadway is getting expensive.

How many tickets did he buy?

And then the second last entry as well.

2017, November, contribution from Gratitude America limited to the Oslo play, $100,000.

Oh, these, so these are the donations that total $650,000.

Yeah, so this is two of the biggest donations.

Terrier resigns in 2020 because of these connections with Epstein, and he was replaced in his capacity at the IPI by another guy called Adam Lupel.

And so I've got one final thing for you to read.

And it's about the performance of Oslo that we started with at the top of the show.

There is an all-staff email.

We've circled back around.

We've circled.

We've come full circle.

There's a little bit of text and then an all-staff email from the new IPI president, Adam.

Our understanding is that the Gratitude America donations to IPI's general funds were drawn upon to offset expenses incurred for the 5th of May 2017 performance.

Gratitude America is one of Epstein's foundations that supported IPI over the years.

Epstein was also present himself.

He was invited as a guest of Turya Rod Larson.

So that quarter of a million dollars in payment was actually

Epstein and Turya putting on a private performance

for 1,000 people,

including many UN delegates, to come and see Oslo.

So, is that the performance we're talking about?

That's the performance we're talking about.

He paid for that particular day for that particular performance.

That's why he's sitting in the front row.

Because he paid $250,000 to put it on.

So, he's paid to put it on.

That's why he's sitting there.

Okay.

It was also wholesome, Carla.

I'm sorry.

The story was so sweet.

I'm sorry.

I still want to see the play, but it feels different

now.

Right?

Yeah.

I mean, no, not even problematic.

I'm sure the play is great.

The play was also great.

And the work that Toya and Mona did then was.

Incredible.

Incredible.

I mean, didn't fix the problem, but, you know, it was an extraordinary achievement by them in terms of diplomacy.

And I'm sure the play is great.

But now it's just a little bit weird.

Yeah.

That Jeffrey Epstein paid 250 grand for a single special performance.

Yeah.

Okay.

Thanks, Cara.

You've ruined my day.

I'm sorry.

Welcome to the rabbit hole, though.

I'm sorry.

There's nothing good down in the rabbit hole, is there?

There's really nothing.

It just ruins.

It turns everything it touches into garbage.

So here's the thing.

We've been in this rabbit hole for a very long time on Epstein.

He was always just this kind of figure in the news for us.

But since going deep on this, we have learnt a lot.

What can you say about what we've learned more broadly?

The thing about Jeffrey Epstein is there's so much research and study, and so many people have looked into him that we just have so many data points about him.

There is just so much information about this single man that is all over the place.

And some of those data points seem to confirm conspiracy theories about him, and then some of the data points seem to dispute the conspiracy theories about him.

And we've got a lot of emails in our inbox with things that people want us to check out or things that they think that we got wrong.

And I just want to clarify a bit what the point of our rabbit hole diving on Epstein was.

The thing for me when we made these episodes was that so many people declare things about Jeffrey Epstein as a fact.

Obviously, there are certain facts that we do know about Jeffrey Epstein, but people also say things like he made his money through a vast wide-scale blackmail operation, or that he was an agent of the Israeli intelligence agency, Mossat.

And all I wanted to do was basically find out whether there is actually public evidence that that's true.

You know, we said we were only going to go to primary sources on this.

A lot of people have pointed out that we have relied on secondary sources for other things in this podcast, and that's absolutely true.

But kind of the point of the exercise was to trace back as many of those secondary sources as we could and find out where they led to.

And what we found was that while there is certainly a lot of proof that Jeffrey Epstein was a criminal, that he had all these connections, that he made all these donations to people, and that he threw these parties on his island, in terms of hard evidence that he blackmailed people in order to make money, or hard evidence that he was a spy, we couldn't find the hard evidence.

When we traced it back, the foundation of those claims didn't quite stand up to the level of journalistic scrutiny that we were applying to those

sources.

The thing for me is,

you know, I've spent far more time studying Donald Trump than I have studying Jeffrey Epstein.

And there's so many weird things about Donald Trump as well that are unexplained.

How Donald Trump was able to get all these massive bank loans despite the fact that he was a repeat bankrupt, how he was able to continue making money and borrowing enormous amounts of money from banks despite the fact that he so often had no capacity to pay those banks back or he, well, according to various court cases that were brought against him, allegedly defrauded those banks by lying about the value of his assets.

And yet he was able to continue to operate and become the president of the United States twice.

There's plenty of strange data points about Donald Trump in the same way as there are strange data points about Jeffrey Epstein, that somehow the two of them were getting special treatment.

But the thing is that I wonder whether that's just the way that it goes among rich people.

Elite rich people get special treatment and they get special bank loans and they manage to make money sort of materialize out of nowhere through their connections with other people.

The fact that they have this money doesn't necessarily prove that they are being helped by an intelligence agency or they are blackmailing people in order to make that money.

Rich people just get favors and get cash and money turns into more money.

You know, the lesson that I've learned in the case of looking into Donald Trump, and I don't know why that wouldn't also apply to Donald Trump's close friend, Jeffrey Epstein.

You know, there's all these claims about his money or his connection with Robert Maxwell, his accomplice, Ghelane Maxwell's father-in-law.

And, you know, there's all these claims that Maxwell was an Israeli spy.

And a lot of people have pointed us to the fact that Maxwell got effectively a state funeral in Israel after his death in the early 90s.

And they sort of go, well, there you go.

He clearly had a connection with the Israeli government.

But Maxwell was clearly a strong campaigner for Zionist causes and a big donor to Israeli causes as well.

So, you know, that sort of thing would also potentially buy you quite a nice funeral in Israel because he was devoted to the creation of the state of Israel for many, many years, and the state of Israel felt that they owed him a debt.

That doesn't necessarily prove that he was working with Mossad.

He may have been working with Mossad.

And I want to make it clear that we're not coming down either way on these claims.

We're not saying that we've debunked the idea that these guys were connected to intelligence or we've debunked the idea that Epstein was at the center of a blackmail ring.

All that we're saying in our episodes is that from publicly available evidence that we were able to get our hands on, it's not proven, I guess.

That was the point of our episodes.

Similarly, we aren't making any claim that Toya Rod Larson has done anything wrong.

All we're saying is,

gee, it's weird how many people were connected to Jeffrey Epstein.

And the fact that Epstein put on his own production of this play that we've been thinking about so much is just so weird.

Yeah, exactly.

Well, it's been real.

Cara, thanks for ruining my day.

I'll get back to working on talking about Gaza and

the recognition of the state of Palestine,

which is what our episode on

Thursday is about.

A different but no less upsetting rabbit hole.

See you then.