How a world leader kept a secret from 1.4 billion people

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Hi, it's PK here, host of the new politics podcast, Politics Now.

I'll be joined by the ABC's sharpest political minds to break down the biggest political stories of the day.

It's called Politics Now, and you can find it and follow it on the ABC Listen app.

This podcast is recorded on the lands of the Awabakal, Dharag and Iora people.

G'day, Matt Bevan here, and we've got a little bonus episode of If You're Listening For You Today.

A little trivia question for you.

Is Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi married?

I mean, he's got to be, right?

World leaders do tend to be married, and someone like Modi probably is, but

picture him at a big rally.

Does he have a spouse there with him?

Hmm, you're thinking, I'm not sure I've ever seen him with a spouse.

Well,

he is married, but he hasn't lived with, or as far as anyone knows, seen his wife in more than 50 years.

Avani Dyas dove into this story as part of her work on the podcast series Looking for Modi, but I have a lot of questions about it.

So Avony's here for a bonus episode.

It is actually such a crazy story.

And when I was the South Asia correspondent, I got low-key obsessed with this because people just kept talking about this fact that, yeah, he had a wife, but then I'd go to all these rallies with him and see interviews.

And obviously, I was following him so closely, and you would just never see a spouse around.

And then people would just talk about it, that he had this secret wife that was just never out in public.

And it was just really weird to think about because obviously in the West, you know, leaders love wheeling out their partners, especially if it's a male leader.

They'll be like, you know, Barack Obama and Michelle Obama, the Clintons.

They all just have this image of being.

Melania.

Yeah.

Melania, she's obviously out there.

They love wheeling them out and showing like, I'm a normal person like you.

I've got a family.

And then, yeah, Modi's story is really different.

Okay.

I didn't know anything about this.

And I'm glad to hear that it's a story that you're obsessed with because that's basically what we do on this show is talk about stories that people are obsessed with.

So start me at the beginning.

I mean, I guess I just started investigating it and going all the way back to when things started.

And Modi grew up in this really tiny town in a state called Gujra, which is sort of in the kind of...

south-central region of India.

I've been there so many times covering Modi's various events.

And he's from this tiny little village called Vudnagar.

And I went there to try and find out a bit more about him and his family life and, you know, the kind of guy he was when he was younger.

And he's just, yeah, a generally interesting guy.

He grew up in a very ordinary household,

very ordinary family.

And Modi has used that to really paint this picture of himself as this normal guy, right?

And so you'd think that would really extend into, okay, I've got a wife as well.

And am I right in he likes to sort of use that as a point of comparison, given that his opponents are so often members of the Gandhi family who have been, you know,

involved in running

India for decades and decades, and they seem like members of the elite, whereas he's a normal guy.

That's part of his thing, yeah?

Exactly.

And when he first ran for prime minister in 2014, that was his whole shtick, you know.

The country had been largely controlled by, yeah, the opposition party congress, which, as you say, has had a lot of Gandhi family members throughout.

And he was like, they're the elite.

They speak English they were educated in the West I'm different I'm from here I you know studied here I did everything here I'm just like you I'm not this elite English speaking person that's different and so yeah it's all become a big part of his image um but yeah obviously Matt you would know that arranged marriages are quite common in India.

The figure is around 93% of people are in arranged marriages.

And I think a lot of times it's huge, right?

And in the West, I think a lot of people see arranged marriages as you know forced marriage or you know it's the woman being pushed into to something

and obviously there are many cases like that but the vast vast vast majority of people are very happy in these arrangements but Modi you know he was promised to this woman which is the tradition when he was about three years old and his parents found this girl in a nearby town they were in the same caste.

So if you don't know what a caste is, in India, people are divided into these sort of different social groups and it's a bit of a hierarchy and it dictates your religious and your social life.

And traditionally, you do marry within your own caste.

And so their families met up and it wasn't like a child marriage or anything like that.

It was just like, okay, we're promising them to each other.

But it wasn't until they were a bit older that they actually met.

So that was really interesting because they were around 12-ish, 13-ish.

And so you're really young, right?

Like you're a child.

Imagine meeting your spouse now when you're a teenager.

I guess a lot of people do, but 12 or 13, that's very young.

And then the families agreed on the engagement.

You're laughing.

Sorry, I'm laughing.

I met my now wife when I was 13.

Did you?

Oh, my God.

That is so funny.

I know.

That's so funny.

We didn't get together until later, but yeah, no, we've known each other since I was 13.

That's so funny.

You're like Modi.

You guys are funny.

I know.

That's me.

I'm just like Modi.

That's right.

Wow.

That's very...

Sorry.

I feel like we should keep talking about that now.

Well, that's for another episode.

Yeah.

So, look, they got engaged effectively.

And then when they were 17, they went through this sort of religious ceremony of marriage.

And then Joshoduban moved in with Narendra Modi's family, which is what happens traditionally.

And then Modi just went full rogue.

His whole group of friends, and I met one of his childhood friends when I went to his hometown, he said, you know, most of us were just getting married.

That's just what you do at that age.

And Modi's family was like, we need to do the same thing, obviously.

And, you know, they were all just.

going through the processes of moving into their family homes.

But then Narendra Modi, he was this sort of free spirit at that age and was like, you know what?

I'm actually going to leave home.

So he was about 17, 18, which which I feel like in any culture is pretty rogue to just be like, I'm walking out on this marriage and, you know, see you later.

But obviously in India, it's a huge deal because it is so traditional in these small villages.

And, you know, I spoke to his friends who said the day he left, it was like his family was in mourning.

It was like Modi had died because it was just such a big act of protest to leave your marriage and your family without really,

you know, talking to anyone and negotiating at first.

And people say it showed his stubborn side as a person as well, because he was like, screw this, I'm out.

I don't want to get married.

I don't want to do this.

So, yeah, it reflected a really interesting side of Modi, but

it took a long time for people to actually discover that this had happened.

And so he decided he didn't want to be married after he was already technically married.

Well, this is the interesting thing, right?

So they were married, but his brother came out when this all became public, which I'll I'll get to.

His brother came out and said the marriage was never consummated.

And she came out, Joshodubin, and said the same thing.

And so there was a bit of questioning around how legitimate this marriage was, but obviously it went through the religious ceremony and we'll get to it.

But he does recognise her as his official wife.

But for a long time, he pretended she didn't exist.

Okay.

So he left home and disappeared.

When did they see him next?

So he actually went on this like religious pilgrimage to try and become a monk, which is really interesting.

And again, Modi loves to talk about his religious side.

It's a big part of his identity as a leader.

But then eventually he did come back home.

But he says that he told Joshotabin, his wife, that she could leave if she wanted to, that she should pursue her teaching career.

She wanted to become a teacher.

You know, he said, look, you have free reign to do whatever you want.

But she said she decided not to leave the marriage because even though legally she could get divorced in India, it's still a bad look in, you know, the 1960s to be a divorced woman.

And then, you know, Modi started rising the ranks in politics and he got really into it.

And obviously, when you're running for election, you need to fill out all these forms with your personal details.

And there's a spouse section.

And he would just leave it blank for years and years.

And then he'd actually talk in speeches about being single.

And this is where it's so, so interesting because it's like he saw this idea of being single as you have no commitments to anyone else and you're just committed to your country.

And he would use that as a selling point to voters and say, look.

I don't care about anything else but running India and that's why you should vote for me.

And so it worked in his favor as a politician.

That's so interesting.

And it's so

the opposite of the way that most, most, particularly, as you say, particularly male politicians kind of...

Whereas it's interesting, actually, that quite often when female politicians come to power, people were like, oh, how are you going to balance family and work?

How can you possibly run the country while also, you know, taking all your children to school and that kind of thing?

That's not usually an issue for men, but

yeah, okay, so he's basically

saying,

the fact that I am unencumbered, I have no family or children, presumably.

I assume, is that right?

He has no kids?

Yeah, no, okay, no family, no kids.

I can devote myself entirely to work, and you should elect me.

So, when did it come out?

that he was in fact not single?

Yeah, so he had this almost monk-like religious dedication to india with his sort of single status but then he was running for the chief minister of gujarat his home state in 2001 and that's a really high profile position you're effectively like the premier right and so people really started looking into his backstory then because he was gaining more power and it was a big deal and then this reporter found out that Joshodaban, the wife, existed and he tried to find her, but she refused to talk.

And so, you know, it never really got verified.

There was still rumors going around.

And then eventually it all came out in 2014 when Modi first ran for prime minister.

And when you think about it, Matt, right?

Like, how does a politician get away with this for so long?

Because their personal life is just dug up for so long.

But the thing with Joshoduban is she was living in this tiny, tiny village in Gujarat where she grew up.

She's this simple woman.

She has her hair tied up in a bun.

She wears simple saris.

And she just is like your ordinary Indian person.

And she was just so unremarkable that people couldn't believe that this woman was married to the person that was about to lead India, the world's most populous country.

Yes.

But then in 2014...

This cot-like figure as well, this man

that is that is sort of almost to a certain extent

above politics in terms of people's love for him.

Absolutely.

Especially at that time.

Because in 2014, as you say, he was this sort of anti-elite, anti-establishment guy.

He won with this huge mandate.

As prime minister, he had to legally declare this marriage.

And so for the first time, he had to say, yeah, I'm married to this woman, Joshoduban.

And it was this big scandal.

And the opposition actually took legal action against Modi for this, saying that he should have disclosed it.

He was eventually found not guilty.

But it gave Joshudubin a bit of kind of free reign to be out there a little bit more.

And again, it's funny.

You know, I know we keep comparing to the West, but it's obviously what people know and what people see.

But you think about the like Hillary Clintons and so on who are just out there all the time doing their own charity work.

And then you think about Joshudubin Modi just kind of, you know, in this small village, living this humble life in this tiny town.

Had she become a teacher?

Did she?

Yeah, she became a teacher.

She was teaching at this school.

No one thought anything different of her.

And then when he became prime minister, they needed to give him security.

I'm just sorry.

I'm just imagining being one of her students.

Yeah.

Just being, wait, what?

I know.

It's like you're married to the leader of the country, but I feel like a lot of them probably didn't even know

because she was so low profile.

Yeah, yeah.

They probably didn't think anything of it.

But yeah, it's pretty weird.

And then because he was prime minister, they had to sort of forcibly give her bodyguards because they thought, oh, okay, now it's all come out.

Everyone's going to hound her, which they did.

But Matt, this is like a bit of a weird part of the story, too, because she had to like cook for them, she said, and clean for them, these bodyguards.

And it sounded like it was more of a chore to have this security.

She said they'd follow her around and she found it really annoying.

So yeah, it's not like she's being pampered.

And, you know, you see the contrasting lives.

Like Modi lives as the prime minister and he's definitely living quite a humble life for a prime minister.

He's not covered in riches or anything like that.

But compared to his life, she's just so poor and so different.

And yeah, I tried to find her as well when I was in India.

And

we went around and we found her ancestral village where she grew up.

And then everyone was like, oh, she lives in this other town, but everyone was so sus on us.

And it was really bizarre because every village you go to, it's like a small country town.

Everyone knows each other.

They're like, oh, yeah, go over here.

Like, everyone's very friendly.

But as soon as we started asking about Deshotaban, everyone got really,

really weird about us.

And it started to get quite unsettling actually trying to find her.

And yeah, we weren't able to talk to her either because she's gone so private in recent years

and no one knows why.

Right.

So when Modi left his wife, he obviously, you know, he sort of went on a religious journey,

but he obviously found politics somehow.

By what method did he get into politics?

And

did that contribute to, you know, his desire to...

to remain single apart from for political reasons.

Yeah, so Modi has such an interesting entry into politics.

He got into it as a child through this group called the RSS, which is the largest far-right organisation in the world.

It's been compared to paramilitary organisations.

It denies that it's like sort of the Nazi youth, but a lot of experts do compare the RSS to that.

And it goes around to small villages like Modi's and recruits kids and sort of teaches them about Hindu ideology.

It has this idea that India, first and foremost, is a Hindu nation.

And, you know, India was founded as a country on this principle of secularism and this idea that so many different religions can live together.

And there's a huge proportion of Muslim people, for example, Buddhists, Christians, and so on.

Obviously, Hindus are the majority in India, and the RSS believes they should be at the forefront of

everything.

And that's the kind of mentality that Modi's come in with.

And yeah, a lot of senior RSS figures don't get married.

They have that same religious dedication to their politics.

And so that's kind of the ranks that Modi came up in as well.

He was trained by this group.

He got into politics through them.

He then started running in the more moderate BJP

and then sort of went into his path into prime minister.

But there is that really conservative part of the BJP.

There's a more moderate side of the BJP as well.

But those roots in the RSS certainly influenced him and his ideas around marriage for sure.

Well, I want to ask about this because what policies has he pursued surrounding social issues like marriage and family since he was elected in 2014?

Yeah, he has had these very, very specific policies that he's wanted to commit to.

A couple of them that he said, look, this is how I'm changing the country.

And one of them is this idea of a uniform civil code, which basically makes marriage laws, divorce laws, things like that universal and not religious.

So in a lot of states, it comes down to your religion and you can choose how you get married, how you get divorced, and you can do it.

depending on your religious customs.

But he promised to bring in this code that would make it one set form.

And it's just come through in one state called Uttarakhand in India.

It's just been implemented.

And a lot of people who are Muslim in that state are really angry about it because they're saying, well, we don't have the freedom to run religious ceremonies in the way that we used to.

And that's just sort of one example of how his policies have actually resulted in some minority groups feeling really left out.

Yeah.

I remember, I think about 2019,

that there was a policy put forward by the Modi government that was sort of pitched as a very

thing that was trying to protect the rights of women, whereby they were outlawing the practice of triple talaq divorce in India, which of course is a Muslim tradition.

which was, yeah, as you say, it was kind of like this weird balance between, you know, what they they saw as the rights of women and what Muslims saw as the rights that they should have for themselves.

Did you cover that story at all?

That may have been slightly before you were there.

Yeah, it was before I was there, but it was obviously had repercussions.

And it is a part of the criticisms that a lot of people around the world have had towards Modi and a lot of minority groups and even some Hindus have had towards Modi is that

laws like that are being sold as trying to make things equal, but that they can actually make parts of the population feel left out.

And Modi is quite an incredible politician to watch.

I think a lot of Western leaders could learn a lot from him because he's just so considered in the way that he sells these policies that they can really appeal to a large majority of people in a way

that may not kind of eventuate when they're actually...

put out in practice.

And, you know, things like the economy and his changes to how India is recognised on the global stage.

They are hugely impressive policies that people are lauding around the world.

And he's become quite popular because of them internally.

But then some of these other ones to do with, yeah, people's personal lives are really, really divisive.

And then when, yeah, you go into the Kashmir issue, which has become such a big talking point the last couple of weeks.

That again, it was sort of sold as we're bringing Kashmir in to the rest of India and, you know, we want to make it a part of the country and unify the country.

But people in Kashmir had different opinions about that.

And we're seeing a lot of the repercussions of that now.

Yeah, we are indeed.

We've just finished two episodes talking about the Kashmir issue and the tension between India and Pakistan.

How would you expect

Indian society to respond to what has been happening over the last couple of weeks?

You know, you could understand why it would be very popular with Hindu nationalists

and supporters of Narendra Modi.

But also, I understand there's a lot of support for the tough line that Modi has been taking on Pakistan from all parts of

Indian society.

Yeah, it's such an interesting thing because Kashmir has become this almost jewel in Modi's crown, right?

Like, you know, even his marriage, it all kind of goes into his image making of this like strong man who's protecting India, who cares about India, who's dedicated to India.

And Kashmir was one of these sort of flagpoint policies that he said he was definitely going to bring in in 2019.

So Kashmir used to have autonomous status.

It could effectively run itself as a state.

And because of the minority that lives there and the sort of differences in their kind of culture and beliefs, that was seen as the best way forward after the British left in 1947.

And Modi changed that and brought Kashmir under India.

And that was really controversial at the time.

But it was part of this image that continues today of standing strong against Pakistan and consequently Kashmir as well.

And yeah, as you say, there was a lot of support for Modi's retaliation to Pakistan, is how he put it.

People saying, yeah, we need to stand up.

We can't just sit by and not do anything.

There were some people who were really sad about it, though, people saying, you know, why do we still need to see this constant fighting between India and Pakistan?

And Kashmir is stuck in the middle.

We're sick of it.

It's been going for decades.

And obviously, Kashmiri people just frustrated and stuck in the middle saying, you know, there's just so much, so many different opinions about where Kashmir should land among Kashmiri people.

A lot of them want their own state.

Some of them want to go to Pakistan.

Some of them want to stay in India.

So.

Yeah, you're right though, because it's this idea of this nationalist India.

And I think Modi had no choice really but to retaliate from his perspective as a politician that is seen to be defending his country.

That was ABC journalist Avani Dias.

And to find out more about Narendra Modi, scroll back in our feed and look for Looking for Modi, or you can find it in the ABC Listen app.