Berlin | 8

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Speaker 2 Sitting in his apartment in Berlin, a young man is live streaming to his followers on Twitch, a social media platform for video gamers.

Speaker 2 He's 34 years old, but looks younger, with a neat beard and a flame of greenish blue hair gelled up into a quiff.

Speaker 2 He's got a slightly emo sense of style and is wearing a black string necklace. His name is Andreas, but his friends call him Andy.

Speaker 2 He's been a Twitch streamer for a few years and has built up a small but loyal following of about 5,000 people. He plays all sorts of games, from cute platformers all the way through to gory horror.

Speaker 2 To Andreas' right, his boyfriend Enrico leans over him, stroking his shoulder affectionately.

Speaker 2 Enrico is about the same age, with a similar sense of style, same neat beard, who wear dyed blonde hair and black plug earrings.

Speaker 2 Today is Andreas' birthday, and Enrico has made a surprise video for him.

Speaker 2 In it, a parade of Andreas' friends appear, one after the other, wishing him a happy birthday and singing him songs.

Speaker 2 Enriko hugs him and pushes his face right up against Andreas's, affectionately nuzzling him.

Speaker 2 From a distance, Andreas' life seems wholesome and sweet. His Twitch channel is all about silliness and having fun, playing games, and inviting his friends over to make sushi with him and Enriko.

Speaker 2 But appearances can be deceiving.

Speaker 2 Under the surface of Andreas's seemingly rosy life lies a story of love turning to obsession.

Speaker 2 Because what Andreas doesn't know is that someone somewhere is trying to kill him.

Speaker 2 And this is no game.

Speaker 2 Hi, wanted to know if you are still taking jobs in Germany. I'm willing to pay 10,000 for a killing by stepping or 12,000 if it is made look like a robbery gone wrong.

Speaker 2 My name is Carl Miller.

Speaker 2 Since 2020, I've been part of a team working in secret to stop people getting murdered.

Speaker 2 We broke into a scam murder for hire website on the dark web. We could see every order being placed, real money being paid to have real people murdered.

Speaker 2 The tally of these targets now stands in the hundreds. We call it the kill list.

Speaker 2 So far, we've managed to help law enforcement arrest or convict more than 30 people all around the world.

Speaker 2 When we look at the perpetrators, we often find people caught in a liminal zone between fantasy and reality.

Speaker 2 And in this episode, that line between fact and fiction, games and reality, seems to dissolve completely.

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Speaker 5 podcasts, and welcome back to the show. Even nature sounds.

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Speaker 2 From Wandery and Novel,

Speaker 2 I'm Carl Miller,

Speaker 2 and this is Kill List.

Speaker 2 We're going to be calling the user who wants Andreas Dead Cider.

Speaker 2 Cider writes in clipped form in English and the messages are amongst the most extensive we've ever seen.

Speaker 2 We have more than 40 pages of correspondence between CIDA and various fake hitmen, where CIDA is shopping around, trying to find someone to take on the job. The messages are all on a similar theme.

Speaker 2 The same target, the same desire to kill, and the same method of murder.

Speaker 2 Moved there a few months ago, so it should be easy to get rid of him without much suspicion

Speaker 2 cider hands over detailed information about andreas beyond the street andreas lives on they also provide his social media profiles his email address and two photos of andreas both of them selfies taken from his social media

Speaker 2 cider also seems to know andreas' movements They inform one of the would-be hitmen the exact day that Andreas dyed his hair blue.

Speaker 2 We first catch sight of CIDA on the Hitman site on the 6th of March 2022.

Speaker 2 Two days later, and they've already uploaded nearly $10,000.

Speaker 2 Over the next few weeks, they upload 11,000 more. In total, we can trace $21,535

Speaker 2 worth of Bitcoin that's been transferred for the killing.

Speaker 2 They contact more than 10 supposed Hitmen with names like Eurokiller, Hunter, even Hitler. There's a relentlessness to Sider's obsession that is genuinely unnerving.

Speaker 2 Yet at the same time, Seider is polite to a fault, even to the people scamming him.

Speaker 3 Hi, sorry for the inconvenience. I want to make sure I didn't make any mistakes since it is very important to me to get someone to accept my order if possible soon.

Speaker 3 Thanks in advance for a reply and sorry again if I'm too impatient.

Speaker 2 It seems clear that the person we're looking for is not a hardened criminal. Sider seems much more naive than that.

Speaker 2 And there's a detail in the kill order which hints at their true motive.

Speaker 3 I want to hire someone to take the target out as in and alive.

Speaker 3 I have very personal and important reasons for it, which I could also explain if truly needed. He lives in an apartment with his boyfriend Enrico.

Speaker 3 I can also provide pictures of him so it can be made sure he doesn't get harmed. I wish him not to be harmed under any circumstances in any way or form.

Speaker 2 To emphasize that point, Sider puts in three exclamation marks.

Speaker 3 The target most likely works from home, his boyfriend as well, so it will probably require an optimal timing to catch him alone.

Speaker 2 Whoever wants Andreas killed is very, very clear that they don't want anything to happen to his boyfriend Enrico. And this detail about Enrico, it comes up again and again.

Speaker 3 It is of utmost importance that his boyfriend finds out about his death, so I wish for his body to be found sometime later.

Speaker 3 Since I have a steady communication contact with his boyfriend, I will get a verification once it is done that way.

Speaker 2 This part of the message raises so many red flags for us. Why is CIDA so keen to ensure that Enrico isn't around when the murder happens?

Speaker 2 We've seen before in other cases that people using the site can spin elaborate webs to try and cover their tracks.

Speaker 2 They'll adopt a persona talking about themselves in the third person trying to create a camouflage that they hope will protect them should the messages ever come to light.

Speaker 2 And reading these messages, I can't help but think of Andreas' boyfriend, Enrico, as the primary suspect. Why else would Sida be so insistent that he shouldn't be harmed?

Speaker 2 And that suspicion puts us in an incredibly sticky situation because we need to warn Andreas and the police about the threat, but we need to do so in a way that doesn't risk his boyfriend Enrico finding out.

Speaker 2 We decide that the best way forwards is a two-pronged approach. We hand the case details over to the FBI.
They will fold them on to the police in Germany.

Speaker 2 We have no idea though how the German police are going to react and at what speed. That is, if they're going to react at all.
So the second prong of our plan is to contact Andreas directly.

Speaker 2 The idea is to warn him of the threat and then help him in whatever way he wants. We can alert the authorities locally and, if we really need to, get him to a place of safety.

Speaker 2 But we absolutely cannot risk tipping off his boyfriend Enrico.

Speaker 2 So first we try sending an email to Andreas using the email address supplied by CIDA in the kill order. But we never hear back.

Speaker 2 So we hire a local reporter to see if she can convince Andreas to talk to us alone.

Speaker 7 I'm still in the area of the potential victim. I'm just around the corner from his house.

Speaker 2 Janina Fin Dyson is a reporter and documentary filmmaker living in Berlin. She's got a track record as a fearless investigative journalist.

Speaker 2 She's broken stories exposing far-right militias and whilst working in Syria, she was kidnapped by a jihadist group and held hostage whilst pregnant.

Speaker 2 She wrote a book about it called My Room in the House of War.

Speaker 2 And now, she's sitting around the corner from where we believe Andreas lives, ready to make the call that may well change his life forever.

Speaker 2 Junina starts by keeping things vague. She tells Andreas she's a journalist and that she needs to speak to him urgently.

Speaker 2 She asks if he's read the email we sent him and he seems utterly confused.

Speaker 2 I know you must think that this is a joke, she tells him, but it's not.

Speaker 2 Andreas hasn't got our email.

Speaker 2 It seems like the account we sent it to is not one he checks.

Speaker 2 Janina offers to resend it to him,

Speaker 2 but she warns him.

Speaker 2 Don't show it to anyone.

Speaker 2 The call ends, and Janina sits in her car, not at all reassured that the message has gotten through.

Speaker 8 I offered we can meet at a safe place, you can choose the place, and so on.

Speaker 8 Like, it was really a bit difficult to make the connection with him because he was just saying things like, I think you are totally wrong. I think you misunderstand everything.

Speaker 8 I'm not the person you are looking for. I think he's really not feeling unsafe.

Speaker 7 Yeah,

Speaker 8 I think he doesn't know anything about the threat.

Speaker 3 That's bad.

Speaker 2 That's really bad news. I would much prefer him to be somewhat in hiding.

Speaker 2 It's much more anxiety-provoking that he doesn't think it's him and is therefore taking really no steps at all yet to make himself any safer.

Speaker 2 That evening, I watch as Andreas does his regular Twitch stream.

Speaker 2 It's as if nothing has happened. He's just building a house in a game called Animal Crossing and chatting away about the room he's furnishing for Enrico.

Speaker 2 Whilst Andreas is building a digital house for his boyfriend, I am tearing my hair out in London.

Speaker 2 Because there's another piece of information that makes us realize that we don't have time to just sit and wait to see how this all plays out.

Speaker 2 We've been looking into the username CIDA, trawling the internet to see if it shows up anywhere else. And it turns out there's a match.

Speaker 2 There's a social media account with the same username.

Speaker 2 And just as we feared, that account belongs to Andreas's boyfriend, Enrico.

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Speaker 2 After a failed attempt to warn Andreas, we contact the Berlin police directly.

Speaker 2 Our immediate, overwhelming concern is that Andreas could be sleeping next to the person who's actually trying to kill him.

Speaker 2 And within four days, the Berlin police call us up, asking for more information.

Speaker 2 They seem serious and polite, but it's hard to tell what they're thinking. German police are not, as you might expect, particularly effusive.

Speaker 2 What's become clear to me over the course of this investigation is that the fate of each of the people on the kill list rests on which detective happens to pick up the case, how seriously they take it, and how hard they're able to push to get the evidence needed to prosecute a dark web crime.

Speaker 6 My name is Philip. I'm a member of the homicide unit in Berlin.

Speaker 2 At the Berlin Homicide Unit, Detective Philip Ostrowitzki is examining the messages we've sent the police. He's scouring Zider's words for clues about who could be behind the kill order.

Speaker 6 What does the suspect want? Is there anything we can take out of this conversation?

Speaker 6 Give us the possibility to identify him or to I don't know how to say in English, but to make the circle smaller from potential suspects.

Speaker 2 Philip looks like a detective out of a crime drummer. He's handsome, with short dark hair, and is a lot younger than you might expect a German homicide detective to be.

Speaker 6 I'm 34 years old and born and raised in Bolin.

Speaker 2 Philip is unlike any other investigator we've met before.

Speaker 2 His skill is less in the world of cybercrime or technical evidence as it is uncovering the truth through human sources, probing with questions and using his powers of deduction to uncover the truth of the crime.

Speaker 2 And the reason this case has landed on Philip's desk is that homicide detectives in Berlin don't just investigate murders, they also deal with attempted murders.

Speaker 2 And in the digital age, that means Philip has to deal with online death threats.

Speaker 6 Yeah, these cases are hard. This is quite often the case with attempted murders.
Is it serious? It's not easy.

Speaker 2 But Philip can see that CIDA is serious.

Speaker 2 It's not just the money they've paid, but also the calculating way they've tried to set the murder up, the precision of the method by which they want it to happen, and the obsessive way they keep pushing to find a hitman.

Speaker 2 As he pours through the kill order, there's one detail in particular, though, that stands out to Philip as potentially significant. Sider doesn't seem to know Andreas's exact location.

Speaker 3 Unfortunately, I don't know the exact number of the address, and it was hard enough to find the street out without raising suspicion, but it should be very close to that area.

Speaker 6 That is, I think, one of the key information in there. So, who knows your name? The name of your partner? Knows that you live in Berlin, but don't know your real address.

Speaker 2 Up until now, It seemed to us that Enrico, Andreas' boyfriend, was the most likely suspect. But if Philip is right and this clue is significant, then it looks good for Enrico.

Speaker 2 After all, he lives in the same apartment as Andreas.

Speaker 2 If he's involved in the plot, then Sida should know precisely where Andreas lives.

Speaker 2 At this stage of the investigation, Philip doesn't know exactly what the clue about the address means for sure. but he files it in the back of his mind.

Speaker 2 And his next step is to speak to Andreas himself.

Speaker 6 It happens not a lot that people just kill somebody on the street who they don't know before.

Speaker 6 And in this case, we're not quite sure that there has to be any contact or

Speaker 6 a chain of knowledge of him, even through some friends around him.

Speaker 2 Philip thinks that whoever wants Andreas dead must be someone he knows personally.

Speaker 2 And so, if Philip is going to crack this case, he's going to need to understand Andreas' life and the lives of those closest to him.

Speaker 2 It's a cold Friday evening in Berlin when Philip and his colleague ring the doorbell to Andreas' apartment.

Speaker 2 They're both in plain clothes and when Andreas opens the door, they flash their ID badges to let him know who they are.

Speaker 6 So

Speaker 6 I think it was pending between can I believe this? Can I believe this? Police officer.

Speaker 2 Philip and his colleague spend about an hour and a half talking with Andreas. They tell him about the kill order and the fact that they're concerned for his safety.

Speaker 2 And interestingly, they don't separate him from Enrico. At least, not at first.

Speaker 6 That is very important to have them with him at the beginning as a

Speaker 6 psychological support. It's quite important that there's somebody else from the family that they're not alone.

Speaker 2 But after a while, they interview each man separately. They start with Andreas.

Speaker 2 Phillips trying to work out if there could be anything in his life which could explain why someone would want him dead.

Speaker 6 Do you have financial problems? Are you politically active? Could that be a reason why somebody has a problem with you? But he had no clue where this can come from.

Speaker 6 There was nothing where we really thought this could be a reason for somebody to kill him.

Speaker 2 Next, they turn their attention to Enrico, and they put the question at the heart of the case, directly to him.

Speaker 6 Was it you who did that?

Speaker 2 Given the connection between the username CIDA and Enrico's own social media account, this moment is a real test. And it's clear that Philip is scrutinizing Enrico's response to his question.

Speaker 6 He understood it. luckily so there was nothing how dare you how can you ask me that that's just i understand your question no i have nothing to do with that.

Speaker 2 Philip's impressed by Enrico's denial. It's calm, assured, and mature.
Either he's innocent or he's an incredibly good liar.

Speaker 2 Philip and his colleague leave the apartment feeling more confused than when they arrived. They have no idea who wants Andreas dead, and with that, they cannot keep him safe.

Speaker 2 The following Monday, Philip sends the Bitcoin wallet information to the cybercrime unit. He's hoping they can tell him who owns the wallet that paid for the hit.

Speaker 2 And he invites Andreas down to the station to give a formal witness statement. They spend almost a day together tearing apart every aspect of his life, particularly his online presence.

Speaker 2 Maybe the person who wants him dead is one of his followers.

Speaker 6 There are sometimes strange people online and they're arguing and discussions raising up quite fast in social media. So maybe there was there some discussion he had

Speaker 6 but he said no I don't have any idea.

Speaker 2 There are no leads and by the end of the day Philip is no closer to uncovering the suspect.

Speaker 2 So he goes back and looks at what little evidence he does have. The kill order and the clues in the messages.

Speaker 2 But when Philip looks at the evidence, all roads seem to lead back to Enrico.

Speaker 6 So there we thought, okay, maybe we have to look on this side to see if this is maybe if he is maybe the connection for the suspect to enter in this intrusive way into the life of them both.

Speaker 2 Philip invites Enrico down to the station to give a witness statement to test his theory. The weather is behind the order, Philip thinks.
Enrico might hold the key.

Speaker 2 After Enrico settles into his chair in the interview room, Philip asks him to take out his phone.

Speaker 2 They go through every meetup, phone call, every text message, every interaction in real life or on social media, and they write down each name. to create a list of potential suspects.

Speaker 2 Philip has an idea of how to narrow the list down and it's that detail from the kill order, the one about Sider not knowing Andreas's precise address, that he seizes on.

Speaker 6 So that is a very good thing to talk to somebody

Speaker 6 who could be this person. So as you can imagine, most of your friends know where you live.
So like colleagues from his work, they would be easily able to get his address.

Speaker 2 They work down the list, crossing off names as they go.

Speaker 2 They're looking for people who have a direct contact with Enrico, who know he recently moved to Berlin, and roughly where he lives.

Speaker 2 Close friends and family, his colleagues, they're all off the list. There's the guy who helped him move his stuff to Berlin, but he knows their address, for sure.

Speaker 2 Then there's people Enrico only knows online, but he's not in direct contact with any of them. Or the stranger he chatted to at the bar.
They're not in direct contact either.

Speaker 2 All of them get crossed off.

Speaker 2 After a few hours of eliminating suspects, finally, they're left with just one. The only person Enrico can think of who fits all the criteria.

Speaker 2 A man called Nico F.

Speaker 2 Nico F is a friend of Enrico's from the city of Dresden. It's the place where Enrico used to live until he moved to Berlin with Andreas a few months ago.

Speaker 2 Nico F is 27 years old, with spiky black hair and the same emo dress scents as Enrico and Andreas.

Speaker 2 They met on a dating app and used to hang out together at the gym. They also slept together once, a mistake that Enrico told Andreas about immediately.

Speaker 2 There was no big drama, no breakups, no big falling out.

Speaker 2 Andreas and Enrico stayed together. In fact, they decided to move in together in Berlin.

Speaker 2 So it's hard for Enrico to believe that Nico F would either want or be capable of Andreas' attempted murder. There's also no real evidence linking Nico F in any way to the crime.

Speaker 2 And if Philip is going to investigate this lead properly, he's going to need a search warrant. And for that, he does need hard evidence.

Speaker 6 I thought about it immediately. Okay, how can we get another evidence? I have to be 100% sure if I present that to the judge.

Speaker 2 It's at this point in the investigation that Philip gets a stroke of good luck. His phone rings.

Speaker 2 His colleagues in the cybercrime unit have been investigating the Bitcoin wallet that was used to pay for the hit.

Speaker 2 By tracing the wallet, they might be able to find out who paid for the kill order.

Speaker 2 So now, as Philip's phone rings, the investigation stands at a crossroads.

Speaker 2 It has to turn either towards Enrico, Andreas' boyfriend who has the same username as a kill order, or to this new lead, Nico F.,

Speaker 2 a man who knows just enough, but not too much, about where Andreas lives.

Speaker 6 Enrico was in our office for this statement. At the same time, he got information from the Cyber Investigation Unit with a name.

Speaker 6 It was a perfect mesh.

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Speaker 2 24 hours after the call from the cybercrime unit, Detective Philip Ostrowitzki is standing in Nico S' living room in Dresden, calmly and politely reading him his rights.

Speaker 6 We are from the police. You're arrested now.
You have the right following.

Speaker 2 Meanwhile, two of his colleagues get to work searching the apartment. They're looking for anything they can find to back up their suspicions about his involvement in the kill order.

Speaker 2 They start to pick through Nico F's electronic devices.

Speaker 2 And on his laptops, they find that that in the previous weeks, Nico F has been searching local news sites in Berlin, trying to see whether there have been any unfortunate accidents, like the kind Sider was paying to have happened to Andreas.

Speaker 2 But then, the police uncover something that brings a whole new layer to the crime, something we've never seen before on the kill list.

Speaker 2 First, they find evidence on Nico F's laptop that he's been researching witchcraft.

Speaker 2 Then, they find little pieces of paper on the wall with incantations.

Speaker 2 Not about Andreas,

Speaker 2 but about Enrico.

Speaker 2 And finally, as they move through all the rooms of Nico F's flat, they find a human figure made out of Play-Doh.

Speaker 2 It's a voodoo doll. Again, not of Andreas,

Speaker 2 but depicting his boyfriend, Enrico.

Speaker 2 Now, as you can imagine, as soon as we heard about the voodoo doll, we wanted to find out more about it from Philip. But his lips were sealed.

Speaker 2 He told us he felt like it was too invasive of Nuko F's privacy.

Speaker 6 For me, it's a bit too...

Speaker 6 intrusive, too private to talk about that thing from the suspect. Yeah, I hope you understand it, but it's a very private thing.

Speaker 7 I mean, the minute you hear there's a voodoo doll involved in something, you want to know more, right?

Speaker 2 That's Caroline Thornham, my producer.

Speaker 7 But while it is frustrating, I do also appreciate that he's so sensitive to the privacy and welfare of everyone involved in this story.

Speaker 7 But this means that if we're going to get to the bottom of this case, there's only so far Philip can take us.

Speaker 2 So to really get under the skin of the story, and figure out what motives Nico F could possibly have for this bizarre behaviour, we sent our local reporter, Janina Fin Dyson, to Nico F's trial.

Speaker 2 She's the woman who helped us first get the word to Andreas that he could be in danger.

Speaker 7 When Janina walks into the courtroom, she immediately spots Nico F sitting next to his lawyer.

Speaker 7 He's dressed head to toe in a black hoodie, jeans, and shoes, and he's got three-day stubble around his face. He's looking straight down, doodling on a piece of paper in front of him.

Speaker 8 I saw him totally different than just from from the chats. When I read the chats, I also thought he's a monster.
He wants to kill someone, but I changed my mind about him.

Speaker 7 As part of the hearing, a forensic psychologist who evaluated Niko F takes the stand. She doesn't find that he was suffering from any mental illness like bipolar disorder or schizophrenia.

Speaker 7 Instead, Niko F was gripped by a powerful jealousy. one that could be traced all the way back to his childhood.

Speaker 7 Nico F grew up in a small village near to Lake Constance in the south of Germany, that's close to the border with Switzerland.

Speaker 7 In many ways, it really sounds like quite an idyllic place to live, this kind of bucolic image of rolling landscape with green and blue, dotted with red roofs of traditional German resorts, towns, and villages.

Speaker 7 But the reality of Nico's childhood was anything but idyllic.

Speaker 8 His father had a massive problem with alcohol,

Speaker 8 and he was also aggressively towards him.

Speaker 7 The way the psychologist describes it, his dad instituted this strict hierarchy in the family with himself at the top and Nico F at the bottom.

Speaker 8 The father was beating the mother and his son Nico, but the sister on the other hand was the father's darling child. And every time like the sister was like the princess and he was the bad son.

Speaker 7 Nico's father would also instrumentalize his mother against him as another form of abuse. He would order her to beat Nico F herself.

Speaker 8 So at the end this little Nico grew up in a family where he had no one who like was protecting him and all members of his family were against him.

Speaker 7 Beyond the alcoholism, his dad seems like he essentially terrorized the family for years, and his mum attempted suicide when he was only 14 years old.

Speaker 7 With nowhere to turn in his own family, Nico F found refuge in school. He was smart and a hard-working student.

Speaker 7 He was a bit of a loner, but he did well enough in his exams to study law after he graduated.

Speaker 7 After finishing college, he got a job working as a restaurant manager, and this is the point at which Nico F, shy, little troubled but smart, meets Enrico.

Speaker 7 Andreas' boyfriend on an online dating platform. Now, Nico F knew he was gay from quite an early age, but he was also extremely insecure.

Speaker 7 He'd had a relationship with a much older man when he was 18, but aside from that, it doesn't seem like dating came naturally to him.

Speaker 7 So it's easy to imagine that Nico F wasn't used to cute guys chatting with him. So this meeting with Enrico, straight away, feels really significant.

Speaker 7 and he quickly developed a really serious crush on Enrico. However, Enrico was already in a relationship with Andreas.

Speaker 7 At this point, the two were long distance, with Enrico in Dresden and Andreas in Hanover.

Speaker 7 So, when Enrico and Nico F hung out, it was only as friends. But one day, they went out to a dance party together, and it was then that Enrico and Nico F slept together for the first and only time.

Speaker 7 After that, Andreas and Enrico moved to Berlin, and Nico F seemingly starts to lose control.

Speaker 7 The feeling of losing Enrico seems to have been utterly devastating for him. And that devastation turbocharges his obsession.

Speaker 7 He begins not just to want to be with Enrico, but to actually like become him. He started to imitate Enrico, wearing the same clothes as him.

Speaker 8 He wanted to be close to Enrico. It was kind of a pop star phenomenon.
Like he was obsessed with the pop star.

Speaker 7 It was this love for Enrico turned into obsession that ultimately transformed into a violent jealousy.

Speaker 7 According to Janina, the forensic psychologist started to get kind of poetic about this in the courtroom.

Speaker 7 She says the psychologist likened Nico F's violent jealousy to the kind that has fueled tragedies throughout time and literature.

Speaker 7 And it was this that led Nico F to start to look for a higher power to solve his problem. It started with magic and voodoo.

Speaker 7 These spells were directed towards Enriko, trying to bewitch him into falling in love with Nico F.

Speaker 7 When that didn't work, he moved on to the Hitman for Hiresight.

Speaker 7 Nico F sunk pretty much everything he had into trying to get Andreas killed, and even then, he still seemed to be imitating Enriko, like he's using his online username when he's placing the kill order.

Speaker 7 It's hard to know whether he was doing this to try and frame Enrico or whether it was another attempt to become him.

Speaker 2 Well the contours of this story sound at the same time both quite familiar and also quite unusual because on the one hand we have

Speaker 2 real intent, clinical, meticulous planning, sustained determination, money on the table, but on the other hand voodoo dolls, an imagined relationship that he never had, an unrequited love that the other person didn't even know existed.

Speaker 7 Yeah, it really seems to me like so much of this relationship between Nico F and Enrico and how it turns into this obsession is all just happening independently within Nico F's pet.

Speaker 7 And it's such an extreme example with the voodoo dolls and everything else that I wanted to get under the skin of this case a bit more. So to that end, I've got in touch with Dr.

Speaker 7 Howard Fine, who's a psychologist who's worked with us on lots of different cases on the kill list.

Speaker 12 I'm a clinical psychologist and not a forensic psychologist. So, you know, there is a difference in how we approach things.

Speaker 12 I'm primarily focused on diagnosing and treating mental health issues through therapy with the goal of enhancing an individual's mental health well-being.

Speaker 12 But both disciplines are primarily interested in the why of human behavior. Why do people behave the way they do? What's the function of such behaviour?

Speaker 7 During the court case, Nico F claimed that he was suffering from some form of psychosis. Specifically, he claimed he was hearing voices.
Now, the forensic psychologist who assessed him rejected that.

Speaker 7 She didn't find that he was suffering from any mental illness, but she did diagnose him with a personality disorder.

Speaker 7 Now, Howard stressed to me that he can't offer any form of diagnosis without having assessed Nico himself.

Speaker 7 I wanted to draw on his expertise to try and get my head around why Nico would resort to using black magic, of all things. Like, why would someone even believe that that could work?

Speaker 12 If we think about cases cases of unrequited love or unfulfilled romantic fantasies where you create an idea of a certain situation, individuals can become quite obsessed or fixated.

Speaker 12 And this obsession can then lead to irrational thoughts and behaviors.

Speaker 12 You mentioned voodoo dolls, you know, this idea that I have a certain sense of added control beyond this world.

Speaker 12 So if we're threatening somebody, that gives us a sense of control over somebody else. I'm now controlling you.

Speaker 12 You know, I guess it kind of raises the question, how many of those people on your list, they're asking these questions, but it's more of a fantasy than a real intent to harm and murder someone.

Speaker 12 And I think the more you move across towards real intent, on some occasions, the harder it might be for somebody to differentiate between

Speaker 12 this is my real self and this is my fantasy world.

Speaker 7 I think Howard's explanation there is really interesting because although this is an extreme example, right, I think all our perpetrators are in some way, at some level, delusional.

Speaker 7 And I think that tells us something about the kinds of people that the kill list attracts, right?

Speaker 7 Like often they're smart, well-educated, they've got some kind of technical savvy, people who you wouldn't expect to be hoodwinked by such an obvious scam.

Speaker 7 But all of them have, to some extent, lost their grip on reality. And while that can sometimes involve mental illness, often it doesn't.

Speaker 7 Nico F's delusions about black magic and voodoo might seem really extreme, but they're actually indicative of a much broader pattern that we see across the list.

Speaker 7 Our perpetrators are, in one way or another, all delusional fantasists.

Speaker 2 So as fantasy and reality then collide, like what is ultimately the reality now for Nico F?

Speaker 7 Well, Nico F is sentenced to four and a half years in prison. He seems to be genuinely remorseful.
He says that he's glad he was caught before anything worse happened.

Speaker 7 And I actually think, you know, he's very lucky, because had any of his fantastical plans actually, you know, been followed through on and been enacted, he would be looking at a much longer sentence.

Speaker 7 And we have to hope, I think, that this kind of drastic intervention has broken the spell, maybe, and that's the end of that fantasy and of his murderous intent.

Speaker 2 Whilst Nico F might be just the most extreme example, he shares something, I think, incredibly important to understand about so many of the people who have resorted to put someone on the kill list.

Speaker 2 They're all driven, in one way or another, by a sort of fantastical delusion. It's narcissism or its desire for control.
Some are sexual fantasies, others financial fantasies.

Speaker 2 But they're all dreaming of something which ends up consuming them.

Speaker 2 But what makes them so dangerous is that they're not just dreaming. They're delusional, but they're also meticulous.

Speaker 2 In one sense, they're disconnected with reality, but in another, they're really determined to change that reality itself.

Speaker 2 And ultimately, in each of these perpetrators, we find someone willing to do something really almost none of us actually are.

Speaker 2 Which is not just to bring to life their own dreams and fantasies, but to do so by extinguishing those of another person.

Speaker 2 Next time on Kill List, we go to the city of Nancy in France. where a young waitress is shouting for help, but no one seems to be listening.

Speaker 7 In the past, she's put official complaints with the police against her ex-boyfriend, who was violent with her and who stalked her.

Speaker 13 Police officers discovered a fine name, people to be eliminated.

Speaker 3 You son of a dog, I will find you now and nowhere to leave. You think you can take a picture of me? You're going to see what happens.

Speaker 2 If you like like Kill List, you can binge all episodes ad-free right now by joining Wandry Plus in the Wandry app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music.

Speaker 2 Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wandry.com slash survey.

Speaker 2 From Wandery and Novel,

Speaker 2 this is Kill List.

Speaker 2 Kill List is hosted by me, Carl Miller. The reporter for this episode is Janina Fin Dyson and it was produced and written by our series producer, Tom Wright.

Speaker 2 Kill List is also produced by Caroline Thornham and Jacob Tayvich. Our assistant producer is Amalia Sortland and our researchers are Megan Oyinka and Lena Chang.

Speaker 2 Additional research from Chris Montero. For Wanderey, our senior producer is Mandy Gorinstein.
Fact-Checking by Fendor Fulton.

Speaker 2 Our managing producers are Cherie Houston, Sarah Sarah Tobin and Charlotte Wolfe for Novel. Sarah Mathers is our managing producer and Callum Plus is our senior managing producer for Wandery.

Speaker 2 Original music by Skyler Gerdeman and Martin Linebell. Music Supervision by Nicholas Alexander, Max O'Brien and Caroline Thornham.
Sound design and mixing by Andy Partington.

Speaker 2 For novel, Willard Foxton is Creative Director of Development. Our executive producers are Sean Glynn, Max O'Brien, and Craig Strachan for Novel.

Speaker 2 Executive producers for Wanderery are Marshall Louis and Erin O'Flatty.

Speaker 14 In the fall of 1620, a battered merchant ship called the Mayflower set sail across the Atlantic. It carried 102 men, women, and children, risking it all to start again in the new world.

Speaker 14 Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of American History History Tellers.

Speaker 14 Every week we take you through the moments that shaped America, and in our latest season, we explore the untold story of the Pilgrims, one that goes far beyond the familiar tale of the first Thanksgiving.

Speaker 14 After landing at Cape Cod, the Pilgrims forged an unlikely alliance with the Wapanag people who helped the pilgrims survive the most brutal winter they'd ever known, laying the foundation for a powerful national myth.

Speaker 14 But behind that story lies another, one of conflict, betrayal, and brutal violence against the very people who helped the pilgrims survive.

Speaker 14 Follow American History Tellers on the Wonderry App or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of American History Tellers The Mayflower early and ad-free right now on Wondery Plus.