146: Christopher Wren's side hustle

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In Kentucky, what is a moist county?

The answer to that at the end of the show.

My name's Tom Scott, and this is lateral.

It's a special episode of Lateral today, which I will now prove with maths.

We normally do seven questions in every show.

This is the 143rd lateral to be recorded.

That means at some point during this episode, I will have asked a 1000th question.

Oh my goodness.

What an honor.

My script says, waits for rapturous applause from guests.

I'll take it.

That is, of course, assuming that you don't count the shiny bonus questions.

And of course, there was the pilot run that we did before the podcast that we didn't really do much with.

Anyway, let's celebrate question 1000, which probably happened about two months ago.

At least our guests have arrived right on schedule.

First, we have returning to the show, Wine critic for the Guardian, Hannah Crosby.

Welcome back.

Hello, I'm so gassed to be invited back.

I can't believe it.

Did I really do that well first time?

Well, thank you very much for coming back on the show.

Last time we talked to you, you were in South Africa, having sampled just a huge number of sparkling wines in one day.

How are you feeling?

What are you doing today?

Today, I am in Walthamstow,

sampling the best that the local Tesco's has to offer.

I'm currently in a bit of a housing crisis, so I'm in my friend's garden live and direct here today.

So bit of a vibe switch from South Africa, but happy to be here.

Thank you very much for taking the time.

I always sort of ask guests what are they working on at the minute, but I assume the answer is wine.

Oh yeah, it's always wine.

You don't need to ask any more questions.

Joining you on the show today, we have both halves of the Cy Guys podcast.

And which one do we want to go to first?

Corrie, we're going to go to you.

Corrie, Will, welcome back to the show.

Thank you for having us back.

Oh my God.

I almost called you Luke.

Let me do that again.

No, that works great.

No, that's fine.

You know what?

Here's the thing.

I was going to call Luke on this because I appreciate, Luke, that as the other half of the Psy Guys podcast, you have put a giant lateral logo behind you on your screen.

There is purple lighting in your room, but you do look like you're the host now.

Hey, you know, dress for the job you want, Tom.

You know, like, you're going to retire one day.

Yeah, what will happen is we'll have a string of guest hosts, and then one of those will start appearing like every other panel show there is.

And then slowly your guest hosts will start mysteriously disappearing, and I'll be the only one left.

Oh, Murder Mystery Panel Show.

There's a format that I'm now copywriting.

Curry, I was talking to you, but tell us about the podcast.

What have you been working on lately?

Yeah, so Saiguy's podcast.

It's a comedy science thing, and we're coming back to do more comedy than science in the next few weeks.

Isn't that right?

Luke.

Sorry, I'm hosting now.

I'm the captain.

Everyone's the host but me today.

Yeah, we're just trying to like mix the show up a little bit and just bring loads of the fun back and just make it so much more about just us having a good time with a science basis as opposed to us trying to deliver you a lecture.

Well, very best of luck, both with the new format and with the show today.

We are already fashionably late with question 1000, so let's not dwell any further as we trudge towards question one.

Thank you to Peter Skandret Skandret for this question.

In 2013, the credits for the BBC's discussion show Question Time included the name of Sir Christopher Wren.

Why?

I'll say that again.

In 2013, the credits for the BBC's discussion show Question Time included the name of Sir Christopher Wren.

Why?

Because he worked on the show.

Root one, straight down the middle.

The show is called direct, right?

It was direct thinking.

Just once.

This is actually question 1000, just to break tradition.

I just go, yes, correct, and we move on.

Nice, easy one.

Should we perhaps explain what question time is for anyone who isn't from the UK?

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, so quite, wait, question time.

That's the one where you go and ask questions of people.

You're made to do this.

Often, often done.

Often.

No, Corey, you started this.

We keep going.

Often politicians and others.

Yeah.

They ask questions for a period of time.

Yeah, so question time travels around the country to different locations.

So it was once hosted in my school that I went to, actually, interestingly.

And they basically pick a city and they say, we're going to be in this location next week.

So if you're in that location, come and be in the audience and submit a question.

And basically, the format is...

pick members of the public, stand up, ask a question, and there's a bunch of usually politicians and then maybe like political adjacent people.

Like, so for example, Tommy Robinson was on it once.

Yeah, that's really the only person I can remember.

This is one of those half-politics, half-entertainment shows, depending on who's on the panel that week and how much they're blurring the lines on it.

So, I think it would be quite helpful if I knew who Sir Christopher Wren was.

It's a name that sounds really familiar, but I might need reminding.

Anyone can help me.

Does sound familiar, yes.

I agree.

Luke?

Depending on your history knowledge and what you were taught in what years in school, I think this is a name I'd have recognised.

I think if you're a little younger, this is probably dropped from the syllabus now.

This is a famous English architect from history.

Okay.

I'm Scottish.

So no kidding.

Oh, did he design like the Royal Albert Hall or something?

Ooh.

Yeah, where was it recorded?

Yeah.

Well, did he?

Did he design the Royal Abbott Hall?

Well, he designed many things, yes.

But was one of them the Royal Abbott Hall?

Come on, sneaky boy.

So, Question Time was filmed in a building that he designed?

Yes.

Oh, and I don't think we're going to get much more out of that question if you don't know that Sir Christopher Wren famously was the designer of St.

Paul's Cathedral.

So talk me through it.

What's going on?

Why is he in the credits?

Well, special thanks section.

Thanks for the building.

Oh, I guess.

There's a very specific credit.

He was actually after the executive editor, the director, the executive producer.

He was the very last credit in there.

Was he sponsoring the thousandth episode of Question Time?

His last will and testament.

Okay, so let me go out on a limb here.

Was this specific episode of Question Time filmed in St.

Paul's Cathedral?

Yes, it was.

Yes.

They went to the biggest, most famous place you could probably film something like this.

So why?

Yeah.

It sounds like there's more to it than that.

Is this some quirk of the sort of film and TV industry where

they needed to credit something?

Not in this case.

It's not like a legal requirement.

Is there like a statue or a painting of him?

So because he was technically in it, he had to be thanked.

Well, it sounds like from what Tom said earlier about being like later in the credits than even like the exe producers, that they are thanking him or crediting him for something that is like so fundamental to this production.

Like, I'm wondering, like, was the first ever question time in St.

Paul's Cathedral?

And then this is like some kind of anniversary episode?

No, but

how might he have contributed to the show?

He had the idea and he had it inscribed somewhere in St.

Paul's Cathedral.

On the roof?

Someone's looking up and went, that'd be a really good idea for a show, actually.

There is a specific credit that you might give someone that they decided to give to Sir Christopher Wren for this one.

Associate producer.

That's sorry.

That's a very neat.

Yeah, Luke, just read off.

Luke, you're the film man.

Read off every single.

It's very literal.

It's what he did.

Architect.

Oh, my gosh.

Is it like production designer, set designer or something?

That's his shot on, Corey.

The very last credit on that episode of Question Time after the producers, after the directors, set design Sir Christopher Wren, just because they wanted to show off.

The only set designer ever to be credited with higher billing than the executive right, yes.

Yeah, no amount of like sort of nepotism, nepo baby stuff is gonna get you there.

Yeah, I think we need to go to Sir Christopher Wren's Wikipedia page.

You know, when you have like an actor who also writes a book and also sings like two songs, and it's like actor, musician, and

um, I think we need to go to his Wikipedia page and write: Sir Christopher Wren was an architect and set designer for the BBC.

Yes, who

Luke, we're going to take the next question from you whenever you're ready.

Yes, my question has been sent in by Michaela Wheeler.

It is, why is a tape measure traveling at around 7.5 kilometers per second?

I'll ask that question again.

Why is a tape measure traveling at around 7.5 kilometers per second?

I wish I knew off the top of my head like orbital speeds.

I feel like I should.

That's something I should know.

That's what I was thinking.

That feels like orbital speeds.

That's where my head went.

Yeah.

But would they need a tape measure in the space station?

Because you know how long everything is anyway, because it's all been built for spec.

How do you think they know how far up they are, Corey?

Oh, yeah.

We don't have a space elevator.

We just have a space tape measure that just gets dropped down.

Yeah, it just whizzes past you in the entire...

You have to glance really closely and go, ah, 100 kilometers.

God, imagine that catching your fingers on the way back up.

That's what I was thinking, Anna.

Yeah, at some point, someone flicks it accidentally.

That's when it's seven and a half kilometres.

It's coming back in.

Although, I do like the idea that you have a tape measure in space in kind of microgravity and you flick it.

And then not only does it come back in, it then starts the whole thing just rotating very quickly.

Yeah,

it would though, wouldn't it?

It would, yeah.

Oh, this is unrelated.

Or maybe it's not unrelated.

Maybe this is the lateral part.

I'm being very meta here.

Maybe.

Do you know those snap bands from like are they from the 90s?

Yeah, the ones that they're straight and then you put it around your wrist and it bends round.

Yeah.

I think I cut one open once and it was literally just a tape measure.

Yeah.

It's a bit of old tape measure.

They put stuff around.

Recycling, we love it.

Okay, look being surprised tells me that it's not to do with the snap bands.

Okay, it's nothing to do with the snap bands.

But I will say that you are on the right track with where you started to begin with.

Like, it's very impressive how far you got in literally like one second.

I'm like the tape measure.

I'm just traveling really far.

It's got to be somewhere outside the atmosphere, presumably, or it's got to be not relative to the speeds you'd expect because seven and a half kilometers per second, a tape measure going through air is just going to burn up at that speed.

Yes, you are correct there, Tom.

Did someone accidentally leave their tape measure?

Because I've done something like this before.

Did someone accidentally leave their tape measure in like something heading to Mars.

Is that what happens?

I've got my keys.

I've got my wallet.

I feel like there's something I'm missing.

My tape measure.

Oh, man.

Hold on.

Questions?

No, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

You've done something like that before.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We've all been there.

Do you know how when you just shoot something into space every now and then, say a tape measure or garlic breads?

You know, that's a normal thing that we all do.

Yeah, I'm the only person on this podcast, as far as I know, who has sent something to space.

I think, yeah,

I sent something to the edge of space, and

it wasn't traveling that fast.

Okay, look, I just think if you're going to come at me for sending a tape measure to space, you really got to think about where you're coming from.

That's fine.

So, is it the tape measure is extending at that speed, or is it just like a tape measure and it's moving itself quite fast?

The tape measure is not extending.

The tape measure has already been extended, but not at that speed, at a very normal speed for a tape measure.

I'm just full of ideas

that aren't good ones, like going on a spacewalk and

you're Sandra Bullock, you're on a spacewalk.

What happens?

Oh, your line gets cut, but George Clooney has the other end of the tape measure.

Okay,

let me just slice these possibilities in half for you slightly and tell you that the tape measure is not there accidentally.

Yeah, my my brain is going, is this an actual tape measure or is this sort of like

a physics tape measure that's perfectly spherical in a frictionless plane?

Because the answer to a lateral question can't be because someone needed a tape measure on the ISS.

That's a bit.

Yes, that's it.

We've done it.

Congratulations.

Yeah, the thousands question is just going to be easy, I think.

You know, we've got to find out.

No, it is an actual tape measure.

You are correct that it is in space.

I want you to think about, and you've already touched on this, what are the other things that tape measures do that aren't measuring?

The snapper and your wrist.

Yeah.

We've been through that.

So is it the entire tape measure that's moving, or is it just part of the tape measure that's moving?

The entire thing is moving.

The tape measure is moving.

It's not extending or like it's just

as an object, it is moving.

It's kind of held under tension, isn't it?

Because if you don't lock it into place, it will just spring back to where it came from.

So is there some way that you need to have like a long metal strip held under tension like that in space?

Is it to crossover, crossover something?

You're getting pretty close, Tom.

You're getting pretty close.

Is it conductive?

Is that maybe something?

That is getting closer.

Not conductive, but think about the material properties of a tape measure.

Specifically, we are talking, to be clear, because you've already got it and you've actually assumed it, interestingly, it's not a fabric tape measure.

It's not a floppy tape measure.

It is one of those metal tape measures that can curl up in a little circle, which you've been assuming the whole time.

Oh my.

Hold on.

You're using it as a...

Are you using it as some kind of like...

motor or electromagnet because it's coiled if you run um a current through a coil like coiled wire would that no

be getting colder now?

But

think about that coiling mechanism.

Someone on the ISS needed an emergency antenna.

Tom, you are closer than you think with that joke.

Okay.

Okay.

It's not on the ISS, but you're so close.

What, a satellite then?

Yes!

As an antenna for a satellite.

Of course, I don't know why I got stuck on the ISS.

I think it's because it's a i was like it's a physical thing that people would take up but no and it's also something that we talk about the iss moving at x number of kilometers per second quite often as well yeah so yes you've got it this is a satellite called bison sat it is one of many amateur nano satellites that utilizes a tape measure as an antenna for the device.

It has a, it's, it takes this springy material and it's coiled up during the launch and then it's released once the satellite has reached space.

A string keeps this little tape measure coiled up and then a resistor burns the string when it's time to release the antenna.

And as you know, from if you've ever used a tape measure, it springs out.

Well, when we use them on Earth, it springs in.

But they use that same springing mechanism to spring it out, and that is then an antenna for your satellite.

Oh, wonderful.

At the time of us recording, Bison Sat is traveling at 26,800 kilometers per hour.

It is a one-kilogram cube, 10 centimeters by 10 10 centimeters by 10 centimeters.

There are so many of those cube sats up there.

Like if you have if you have a university department with a good budget or even maybe a school with a very good budget, you might be able to get one of those or even a tiny smaller one up there and they just get sent out on some rocket launch with 100 of them all getting launched.

Yeah, it's so interesting.

Like they often use like a phone as the processor and even the camera and also in this case a tape measure as the antenna.

It's kind of like, yeah, you're just cobbling this thing together.

It's very cool.

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Some models of airplanes, such as the B-52 Stratofortress, the A4 Skyhawk, and the F-111 Aardvark, were equipped with blinds in the cockpit.

Why?

Now I've just got the B-52s in my head.

Okay, so I know why we have blinds on a normal aeroplane.

So when you're asked, like, can you put the blinds up or blinds down or whatever, that's because, as far as I remember, it's because you want your eyes to already be adjusted to the outside light

just in case you basically crash and you need to be able to see pretty quickly.

So that's, I suppose that's not why we have blinds on an airplane, but it's why we have to lift our blinds and that might be some way relevant.

And it's also the reason that they will dim the cabin lights for landing or takeoff at night so that your eyes are adjusted just in case you need to evacuate.

It's quite bleak often when you're on an airplane, just how many things they're doing just in case you crash.

Like, quite a lot of stuff.

I read once that the, I don't know if this is true, but I read once that the brace position is actually nothing to do with your safety.

It's to make it easier to identify your body if they crash.

I don't know if that's true, but that is what I heard.

Cover up that pretty face of yours.

We're going to move that right soon.

Teeth, I think mostly.

Yeah, yeah.

But also, if you really cared about safety on planes, you would fit the seats backwards.

Right.

You are much less likely to have a serious injury in a collision or something like that.

If you are facing backwards, because you just kind of get pushed into your seat.

Like

sort of baby car seats.

Yeah.

Really young ones.

Yeah.

They have to be facing backwards.

That would feel so much cooler on takeoff as well.

Whoa.

It's like a backwards roller coaster.

And then you'd be pointing towards the ground as you went up.

Like, whoa!

Like, oh, no, no, no, you're going to give me nightmares.

You can directly identify the reason that didn't happen.

They should all be on little motors, and as soon as you're up in the air, they go

kind of like the voice, you know?

Yeah.

Just

feel like, will I am as I crash into the sea.

We should probably get back to the question.

So, blinds.

And it's, and

I want to make sure it's not in in case your co-pilot wants to have a little snooze.

It's not, no.

Because these are probably single-person.

No, not the Stratofortress.

It's very difficult to say that, but the Stratofortress is a big plane.

It's kind of in the name.

Obviously,

come on.

We all know that.

It's a Stratofortress.

Well, Luke, that's assuming that I actually remembered the names of any of those planes.

Yeah, as he was saying the prompt, I was like, I knew there was a reason I brought a notepad last time.

Yeah.

There's a hawk, there's an Aardvark, or did I miss here Aardvark?

And it's actually Adnavik or something.

No, no, you got it.

Stratofortress, Skyhawk, and Aardvark.

So I'm going to say, is this...

Okay, so remember from history in primary school, I think the reason, yeah, the reason we turned off all of our lights during the Blitz was so that German bombers couldn't find us.

So is this like you've got all your cockpit lights and things on your dashboard lights?

Are you putting the blinds down so that you can't be detected by other aircraft, like from the little lights shining out the window?

That's not the reason, but you have identified that these are military planes.

Okay.

So there are those weird military planes where they're like all weird shapes so that radar like bounces off them in different angles and they can't be detected.

Is that anything to do with it?

I'm gonna let you all talk about this for a while.

Okay.

So no.

Okay.

So let's have a think about what things blinds do, other than they keep heat in or out.

They block light coming out and light coming in.

I mean, that's the same thing.

Is it like, oh, are these planes like flying above the level where you'd get sunburned if you didn't have blinds?

A lot of planes do that anyway.

But in that case,

you would use a filter or just something to cut UV in the windscreen.

You wouldn't need to put the blinds down for that.

Is it about not being detected or not being seen?

No, not

this time.

Is it maybe for when they're not in use?

Because I know we're thinking, you know, oh, how would you use it when they're, but when they're not in use, there might be some reason that you have blinds.

Okay, well, I have a pilot friend, and he told me this absolutely terrifying, but also very reassuring thing, which is that in order to pass his pilot's license, he has to be able to land a plane without seeing out the windows at all.

He has to be able to just look at the dashboard,

the sort of instruments on the dashboard, and be able to perfectly safely land the plane, assuming it's like full fog or the windows are cracked or you've randomly, yeah, you've got no way of seeing out the windows at all.

So is it for training maybe, or is there some circumstance under which you actually want to not see outside

and you just want to see the interior of your cockpit?

That last bit, Luke, is absolutely right.

There is a reason why folks in the plane would not want to see outside.

Too scary.

Too scary.

Too high up.

Don't go look.

We are talking about military planes here.

Lasers.

Laser beams coming through the windows.

Current military planes, I assume, not future space military planes.

Oh, Cold War military planes is another term.

Cold War.

Nuclear, something?

something nuclear.

So you're not completely blinded by a possible atomic blast or.

That is the correct answer.

Yes,

absolutely right.

These are planes that carry nuclear ordnance.

And this is quite a dark question.

These blinds are designed to protect the pilots from the flash of a nuclear bomb detonation.

And Luke, you were right.

It's not just the light, it's the heat as well.

So on the B-52, these were curtains with a reflective layer and a stiffener and a rubberized vinyl cloth just to cut everything out.

Um,

these days, they'd use fast-tinting goggles, but back in the Cold War, the answer was: if something big is going to go off, you close the blinds and you keep flying.

I reckon if you're going to drop a nuclear bomb, you should have the blinds open, you know what I mean?

Yeah, if you're going to do that, you take a little bit of it yourself.

Solidarity.

No, no,

Yes, these were Cold War nuclear bombers and the instructions to the pilots were: if something's going to go off, close the blinds.

Hannah, your question.

Sure.

This question has been sent in by Pascal de Vries.

A farmer sells the eggs, meat, and fat from the birds he breathes.

He also sells the feathers, but only from their left wings.

Why?

I'll read that again.

The farmer sells the eggs, meat and fat from the the birds he breeds.

He also sells the feathers, but only from their left wings.

Why?

All of his customers are communists.

Yeah.

They wouldn't be buying them then, Luke, would they?

Sure, yeah.

Sorry.

Sells, buys.

What does that even mean?

Ooh.

Exclusively sells to Jeremy Corbyn.

There we go.

That's it.

We'll watch on this one.

There we go.

Well, what kind of bird first, I think?

Because

that might help, right?

Like, is it an ostrich, maybe?

Why were we both thinking ostrich?

Why?

I feel like it's the least.

It's the sort of most out-of-left field edible bird.

Bird.

Yeah, yeah.

There was the ostrich scam, I think, in the late 90s, I want to say.

There were a couple of companies that were set up to do ostrich farming, and they got investors to buy in.

It was the poultry of the future.

It didn't end well for the investors or for the ostriches.

I think it's doubtful whether there were any ostriches in the first place.

I'm vaguely remembering something from years ago, but certainly like ostrich farming,

there was an attempt to do it.

It didn't go well.

Wow, scammers are really running out of ideas, aren't they?

Oh, no, they just kept putting their heads in the sand.

There it is.

Let's see.

Sorry, Hannah, could you repeat the bit before the bit about the left wing?

What are the other bits of produce?

Of course.

So the bits of the produce are, yeah.

Eggs, meat, and fat from the birds he breeds.

That's specific.

I'm thinking this might be

from maybe a video game or something.

It's not, unfortunately.

Before you go down that rabbit hole,

something tells me you will.

We're going to keep out.

It's not video games, I'm afraid.

Out of interest, is there some reason why is like the left wing

much bigger for some reason?

Or like they've selectively bred these left wings, or they're making them work out, but just on one side?

Oh, it could be some horrible factory farming thing, couldn't it?

I mean, I don't know.

Well, they've only the birds have only been born with left wings.

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't be that surprised.

Yeah.

I seem to remember you're vegan, Luke.

Yes, yes, yeah.

Specifically because of this fact, actually, if I never remember it.

Is there something wrong with the right wing or is it in some way deficient or it's not that there's something wrong or deficient with the right wing, it's just that the left wing is specifically the feathers of the left wing can be specifically used for something.

Keep going down.

Yeah, keep trying to guess what kind of bird it is.

Fat is very specific.

The only birds I know where you can buy their fat are ducks and geese.

You can buy duck fat and goose fat for cooking.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Keep going.

Feathers.

Is it down feathers?

I'm thinking of like down feathers for

pillows or something.

Look, you've got an idea.

But yeah, I'm thinking.

Look at the idea that the most expensive pillows are just left-handed feathers.

Would you buy at a left-handed shop?

Of course.

Yes.

Of course.

Or if you sleep on your left side, maybe you can only have left feathers.

Yeah, all the feathers have to go the same way to provide the correct comfort on your expensive pillow.

Yeah.

I'm thinking maybe like the feathers are used for something like.

Do we use feathers for archery?

Because like that would mean that they would be pointing in one direction and that might make the make the thing fly correctly.

Oh Luke, you're so nearly there.

But it's not archery.

It's not archery.

But it's it's for aerodynamics.

Because they will grow in different directions on each wing, won't they?

So what else needs to get rifled with feathers?

Oh, shuttlecocks!

Yes!

Oh, yes!

Well done, but you were so close, you just got the sport wrong, you just needed the sport.

Yes, so goose feathers are used to produce professional quality badminton shuttlecocks.

By standardizing the feathers to the left wing only, the shuttlecock will always spin clockwise, which is more predictable for professional badminton players.

Using the right wing feathers makes the shuttlecock spin the wrong way, and then, interestingly, using a mixture of left and right feathers will cause it to wobble.

Thank you to Yakir Foreman for this next question.

In the late 19th century, some carpets at a San Francisco facility got gradually more valuable over time.

The managers of the facility ordered for the carpets to be burned every few years.

Why?

And one more time, in the late 19th century, some carpets at a San Francisco facility got gradually more valuable over time.

The managers of the facility ordered for the carpets to be burned every few years.

Why?

This must be like that thing where fashion labels destroy excess stock in order to keep the price up so they can't be sold at like TK Max or something.

Yeah, or maybe they're getting stolen and you know, it's just too kind of like dangerous to have these carpets continue to be stolen.

So instead, they publicly burn them

because of how valuable they are.

A public burning.

I love that.

I love that you've gone to a public burning.

This is the bottom of the whole town.

Are you going to the public burning today?

Wondering what this facility is.

I feel like that might be the.

The only other possibility I can think of is if it's a material that attracts some kind of bug or vermin that you have to destroy.

So you burn it in order to kill the bed bugs or something.

But why would that make it more valuable?

Maybe that are like silkworms or something.

My mind is going to

this facility produces something and

excess bits of that something somehow get tracked into a carpet.

But I can't imagine a facility that produces anything

having a carpet because that just seems unsanitary.

And it's a pain to rip it up and burn it.

Tom, can I ask, is the burning of the carpets an entirely separate thing from the fact that the carpets go up in price?

No, very much connected.

So it's a form of,

well, the most obvious thing would be like it's a form of demand-supply control, like you have in fancy labels.

Yeah.

Is the burning of the carpets for the purpose of destruction?

Or

is there some other

is there some other reason that they might burn the carpets?

Like a festival or something.

Or like when you go to a restaurant and they like set your drink on fire on the top of it.

But they do that with your carpet, like put loads of ethanol on it

and then it's done or is there is it the is it the production process is it the production process has to be burned are they maybe more valuable because they have been the carpets that a celebrity or someone has walked on and then but i mean maybe was celebrity like that enormous of a thing and red carpets

yeah red carpets Yes, there is a thing about

Cannes Film Festival, they have the red carpets and they destroy them every year

and remake a new one from scratch.

They never reuse them and they do destroy them.

I don't know if they destroy them by burning them, but they do destroy them.

But look, the film industry is not very wasteful at all.

Why would they do that?

They'll just AI the carpet in later.

No, no,

they'll film a carpet there.

And then they'll CG it out and then they'll AI it in again.

Yeah.

Just so you get that real carpet look.

It's all green spray paint.

Yeah.

Of the theories being thrown out so far, Curry, yours was closest.

You were talking about things being trodden into the carpets, isn't quite right, but certainly there was a production process and there was some

waste is the wrong term, but some inefficiencies there.

Inefficiencies.

What are these carpets made from?

Is the fire burning something off, or is it like getting something in?

Is it like sealing something in to the carpet?

Imbuing the carpet with something?

Neither of those things, Luke.

There is a third possible option for why you might want to burn those carpets.

What?

Why you might want to burn those carpets?

Are we thinking of the wrong kind of burning?

Like something burning, going up in flames, or burning.

Literal burning.

Literal burning.

The only other option of like burning something off or imbuing something in, to me that's the carpets are on fire.

That's the thing.

You're saying burning something off there.

Yes.

That's not the right term.

It's close, but that would entail someone getting.

Oh, like transforming it in some way.

So you put something on, and then when you burn it, it becomes a different chemical material, that kind of thing.

This is one of very few substances where that would not happen.

Okay.

Okay, so what substances don't change?

Where you burn it and it doesn't change?

Gold.

Gold?

Gold?

Gold.

Oh, is it jewellery companies don't want their employees taking gold from the carpets, and so they burn them.

Ah.

Or they burn away the carpet to get the leftover gold.

To get the gold.

That's the mysterious third option there, Luke.

Yes.

So the carpet is somewhere where people drop loads of gold.

Or is it just like a filament from sanding and

production?

Yeah.

You're right.

This is gold dust trapped in the carpets that is being recovered.

It's a silly rich people thing where the gold doesn't actually do anything, but the fact that it is a gold carpet is just like, yay, excitement.

Is this some joke I'm too poor to understand?

No, no, this was one of several facilities across America.

You're right, production process that includes gold in the late 19th century.

If you happened to be in America in the late 19th century, you would almost certainly have dealt with this facility's

output in some way or another.

So Luke, you're old.

What was America like in the late 19th century?

One of several facilities operated by the US government.

Oh, it was a U.S.

Mint then?

There it is.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

There it is.

Oh.

Do you know when you...

Do you know what?

I've heard that before.

I didn't know this prior to that.

So was this in a time when there was actual gold in coins?

Yes.

These are the carpets in the adjusting room at the U.S.

Mint in San Francisco.

They collected gold and silver dust from mint operations.

And so burning the carpet meant that you could recover.

all those precious metals.

They were much more valuable than the carpet.

And according to a newspaper article from 1893, one carpet burning session released $3,200 worth of metal, which in 1893 is a a lot of money.

That's a fair whack.

That's so funny.

When you first asked the question, I was like, maybe the carpets are made of gold.

I was like, no, it's stupid, stupid.

Yeah, there's a report from 1886 that says 171 ounces of gold and 44 ounces of silver were reclaimed from a batch of carpets that have been used for several years.

So that is a lot of metal.

It's like finding some loose changed in the back of the sofa.

Yeah.

See what I find.

Corrie, it is over to you.

So this question has been sent in by Steve D.

In the 1970s, third-party companion products for Dungeons and Dragons explained in detail how likely it was for a dragon to be untruthful.

They swiftly stopped doing so and have never done since.

What happened?

In the 1970s, third-party companion products for Dungeons and Dragons explained in detail how likely it was for a dragon to be untruthful.

They swiftly stopped doing so and never have since.

What happened?

Can I just say this is a really, really apt question for me right now because I am so, so into Dungeons and Dragons as of the past few weeks.

It's been my whole life.

Is anyone else here

D ⁇ D player?

Because I'm not.

No, my wife is, but not me.

A couple of times ages and ages and ages ago.

I can shout down to her if you want.

I can ask her.

I have a friend who goes to a place that has like professional games masters somewhere in London.

There's a little tavern where, you know, because it's a big operation to run a game of D ⁇ D.

You have to do a load of storytelling, do a load of research.

That is now a service for hire at one place in London.

You can just turn up with your adventurers and just have a professional

deal with the paperwork for you.

Oh, brilliant.

Does anyone understand sort of the basics?

I guess you need to understand the basics of how D ⁇ D works as as a game.

It's communal storytelling, right?

With rules.

Yeah, and specifically you sort of roll dice to determine some things.

There's numbers and whatnot in there as well.

All right.

I'm thinking of like these third,

what was the phrase, third party,

third party companion pieces.

Is that like a rule book or maybe it's an additional dice, but the dice had like a stupid amount of sides, so it just only like landed on one number ever.

That's really funny that you say this dice had a stupid amount of sides as opposed to a normal dice that had a size.

That's the other dice,

which doesn't have the same amount of size.

I literally found a dice with 100 sides the other day.

So what's that shape even called?

That is not out of the realm of possibility.

But no, yeah, you're so spot on.

The fact that it's a third-party book is very important.

So that means it's published by someone who is not the official manufacturer.

It is a tie-in.

it's an extra thing that someone else has made, going, we're going to play in your world for a bit.

What's about dragons?

Was it written by a dragon?

And dragons are like, oh my God, we tell the truth all the time.

What's the big deal?

There was a slander and libel lawsuit from dragons, from the actual concept of dragons.

And you're lucky that it was a lawsuit as well, because usually they would just eat you.

Yes.

So the fact they've gone down the legal route is fantastic.

That's pretty, very civil of the dragons, isn't it?

I'm wondering, like, so you said that they had like a score for how trustworthy they were.

And I'm wondering, like, is there a mechanism to determine trustworthiness in non-third party

D and D?

Is that actually a thing that you normally would roll the dice for to determine trustworthiness and having it sort of set, especially by a third party, interrupted the game or upset some people?

So it's third-party books.

So it is to do with the statistic that is measured in game.

You're right on that, Luke.

And there is sort of a mismatch between what's in these third-party books and what is actually supposed to happen in the game.

That's often a thing when you have kind of that external content, even if it's officially licensed.

Like Star Wars basically wrote off decades of novels and extra stuff because Disney bought them and wanted to put new movies out.

So presumably whatever was in the third-party book kind of got overruled later, either accidentally or deliberately by the officials.

So it wasn't so much that it was overruled later.

It was wrong to begin with.

It was wrong to begin with.

Yeah, exactly.

Because dragons can't talk.

Of course.

But they can still be dishonest, even if they don't talk.

Dragons can talk common and draconic, actually.

Yeah.

So I'm guessing that maybe like

you, while you don't directly roll for something like trustworthiness, you do roll for something like truth or something that would have an effect on trustworthiness, even if it's not directly trustworthiness.

No, so it's actually a statistic for whether or not the dragon would be at home.

So you roll to determine whether the dragon would be at home.

And if he's told you he's not, he's untrustworthy.

If he says that he is, but he says he's not.

It was whether the dragon is untruthful, right?

Yes.

So that was, so these books explained in detail how

likely it was for a dragon to be truthful.

And this statistic is about whether or not the dragon is going to be at home when you arrive there.

Dragons don't have homes.

They do have homes, but

where would you often find a dragon?

In lairs.

Yeah, they do.

In a lair,

with a bunch of gold coins that he got from melting loads of carpets.

Carpets, yes.

With the fire breath.

That's actually...

Yeah.

Oh, perfect.

Yeah.

Is the book just like an enormous list of individual dragons and they're instead of kind of like choosing it in the game, it's actually just like lots of dragons to pick from, but they're also like unlicensed dragons for the game.

No.

So it's not so much to do with the dragons as it is to do just with the statistic.

And this sort of this sort of mix-up between the statistic of whether it's going to be at home and how trustworthy it is is...

all to do with the production error.

It's really going to affect your storytelling if you're building up a big fight with a dragon

and then you get to the cave having this is going to be the big evil boss at the end and you roll the dice saying, ah, he's not home.

Sorry.

Sars is just, he's just popped out for some milk and some

burning nation of peasants.

Okay, so imagine you're playing DD, right?

You're doing your quest.

You get to a cave, you ask the DM,

is the dragon home?

And the DM's like, well, you better roll for it.

So you roll for it.

Dragon is home.

But then you check your book and it says dragon's trustworthy.

So you're still going to go into the cave?

Not exactly.

No.

So there's, it's, it's to do with the production error.

Um, I remember what would a dragon's home be called?

A light.

Oh, for God's sake, come on.

Go ahead, Tom.

It was talking about the dragon's liar.

Yep.

Yep.

You kept picking up on it being Lair, not Cave.

Damn it.

So in early versions,

Lair was printed as Liar.

And then obviously sort of third-party books would have taken that, run with it, not really understood the rules, and so invented all of this extra information for dragons being truthful or untruthful when actually it was just to do with whether you're walking through a lair is there going to be a dragon there or not rolling signs basically the the dungeons and dragons equivalent of cartographers copying each other's maps

exposing themselves as liars sorry lairs as lairs yeah absolutely

Which means there is one thing left to do.

At the top of the show, I asked, in Kentucky, what is a a moist county?

Does anyone want to take a shot at that before I give the answer for the audience?

I'm immediately thinking of like dry and wet states as per for about like alcohol consumption because it's what I do.

You've got a moist state, people that you know only drink on the weekends.

Moist county.

Moist county, sorry.

A moist county somewhere that only drinks on the weekends.

Very close.

You've basically got it.

It's not about time.

Oh, does it have a lot of speakeasies?

Is that it?

They're dry, but you can get some if you want.

You can get a little moist.

You can't stay with licensing laws about where can and can't sell alcohol in different counties.

Yes, that's right.

Hannah, you're right that a dry county or a dry parish or a dry borough is one where alcohol sales are banned.

A wet county is somewhere where it is.

And a moist county has a few areas, a few cities or precincts where you can buy alcohol.

Absolutely right.

Thank you very much to all of our players.

What's going on in your lives?

Where can people find you?

We will start with Curry.

What's going on in my life?

I'm still doing Syguys.

Still trucking away.

You can find me at any of the Psyguys places at Psyguys Pod or on my personals at Not Curry everywhere.

Luke.

I also continue to be trapped in the Psyguys universe, so you can find me at Psyguys Pod in various places.

And you can also find me on my personal socials at Luke Cutforth.

And Hannah.

And I am still doing my column at The Guardian, so if you could read that every week, I would be incredibly grateful.

And you can find me on social media at Hannah Crosby.

That's C-R-O-S-B.

And if you want to know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com where you can also send in your own ideas for questions.

We are at lateralcast basically everywhere.

There are regular video highlights at youtube.com/slash lateralcast, and the full show is available in video on Spotify.

Thank you very much to Hannah Crosby, thank you very much, Luke Cutforth, Merci Bucou, Curry Will, thanking you.

I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.