Former Siemens CEO on Building an $80B Business While Avoiding Burnout | Klaus Kleinfeld | E123

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Okay, so let's dive in.

Emotions are inside of you.

So it's not like, oh my god, I'm angry.

I'm angry because this happened.

No, you decide to become angry and allow this trigger to make you angry.

Klaus Kleinfeld, previously CEO of Siemens, where he led transformation inside one of the most historic industrial giants in the world, if you're feeling burned out, this is is a conversation you need to hear today.

You have the absolute option to sit there and say this does not affect me.

I will not allow this emotion to affect me.

Was there a certain situation where it kind of woke you up to the whole idea of mindset and energy?

I was for a good part of my life of the belief that it's all about time management.

One evening one of my colleagues comes to our office and he said, Klaus, you've been all wrong.

And I said, all wrong on what?

On your metaphor of life.

And that got us into a really really good late-night discussion battle and that made me then look at okay what is this really and was all about energy so then the question is how do I get energy

Klam Kleinfeld, previously CEO of Siemens where he led transformation inside one of the most historic industrial giants in the world.

He then went to lead Arcoa and Arconic and other companies and ventures.

So if you're feeling burned out, overwhelmed, simply tired, this is a conversation you need to hear today because we'll talk about how to manage energy versus time in his latest book, Leading to Thrive, which is mastering strategies for sustainable success in business and life.

Klaus, it's so great to have you here.

Ilana, pleasure to be here.

I want to take you back in time to Germany.

Can I take you to Before age 10?

Like, who was Klaus?

Klaus, before age 10, is the only child of

two refugees from East Germany living in the north of Germany, Bremen,

Hansa Town, you know, so trading town right on the on the ocean there.

Growing up, you know, while his father is

getting a good education and has just been making it into being one of the founding members of what then turned out to be the outer space team that Germany put together after the Second World War.

And he died.

So,

and then life changed quite dramatically at age 10.

Take me there to age 10.

You lose a prominent figure in your life.

Can you take us there for a second?

I mean, that's devastating.

You know, the sad thing is I sat on his deathbed without knowing that he was dying.

You know, I came home from school and my father was at home on a normal day, which was not common.

At that day, they used to work also on Saturdays and he also continued his education at night.

So I didn't see much of him and my mother said, oh, he's just

shut eye.

And I sat next to him and was hoping that he'll wake up.

He died from an aneurysm.

Only hindsight that I noticed, while I was trying to wake him up, his responses, you know, to me trying to tickle him were getting less and less and less, you know.

but at that time, I mean, later on, I,

at Siemens, I actually ran the unit, Angiography and X-ray unit, that helped to change this environment.

And many people can get saved today by minimal invasive treatment, you know, but at that time, there was that was not known.

How did that change your childhood or your mom or your like?

How did that change everything?

I mean, it changes everything, I'm sure.

Yeah, it changes everything.

I mean, we had just bought, my parents had just bought a bigger apartment.

The apartment was very small that we had, but obviously we didn't have any money so she had to sell that again and try to recoup as much as possible but we hadn't even moved in you know so yeah and then she went back to work so that changed my life also dramatically and i think it just accelerates how you grow up one other thing that my mother did then all of her relatives lived in east germany so she decided during the time of vacation that i should go see my relatives So I spent a lot of time in East Germany.

And I mean, all of these things, hindsight, I mean, the old saying is what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

And I think they have been extremely formative for me.

You get thrown into, you have to become a bit

self-reliant.

You know, I grew up basically partially in two different systems, saw the importance of freedom and what freedom really meant, which has never left me.

You know, that's the reason why I also moved to the US, you know, because that's a really very, very great thing that defines the US, in my view, you know, very attractive.

So, yeah.

You're mentioning

how the moon landing, of all things, substantially inspired you.

You're going back to places that are very emotional, you know.

So, the moon landing I saw while I was visiting my aunt and my uncle in East Germany, and you were not allowed in the East to watch Western TV.

And obviously, the Russians had a heads-up, at least the US thought they had a heads-up, with Sputnik and the first man, Gagarin, I think it was, you know, flying out of space, you know.

So the moon landing, we wanted to watch it because it was such an important thing, but we could only watch it on German T V.

And again, that wasn't allowed.

And so we set the clock.

It was late at night.

You know, we got up and closed the curtains, you know, and then huddled around the black and white T V.

And the black and white T V had an antenna, so you had to twist the antenna to get a better signal.

But it literally was just like this snow, you know,

snow forming and suddenly out of the forming snow, you know, you see something that looks like an image and then comes this live transmission from the man basically getting out on the moon, you know, so and what it symbolized for us huddling around this, you know, in kind of secrecy is that, well, maybe one day the world will come together again, you know, so in a free world.

And do you feel like that motivated you or how did that inspire Klaus later on?

Like what impact did that create for you?

It inspired me in many ways, you know, because

I also was for eight years the head of the American Russian society, you know, and I have a lot of friends over in Russia, really good friends, you know, and I've worked most of my business life, I've worked internationally.

I have become fascinated through this by humans and what humans do for different motivations.

I have seen people being enormously courageous, knowing that the environment would would punish them for this even at a young age you know one of my best female friends actually was not allowed to go to university because she decided to wear her Christian cross, you know, while she was going to school and she was the best in class.

And

the committee basically decided that she's not ready to go to university.

So the recommendation was that she should work in forestry, you know, for a few years, you know, to redeem

herself.

But it was not easy for her to find a job.

She eventually ended up working in the church as an assistant, you know, as a secretary, basically.

But she was actually, when the wall came down, she was together with her husband, one of the first, you know, that left and

built her life again, you know.

So, but seeing that and seeing that, she made that decision when she was 17, you know, so, and knew fair well what consequences that would have for her.

Unbelievable.

And again, it's hard for us, I think, a lot of times, unless some of the listeners are from these regions, but it's hard for us to even imagine a place without some freedom, right?

I think it's really, really hard.

So you did do some, you know, some other roles in your career before Simmons, but what was your career like?

Like, where did that take you?

I was always interested in math.

I mean, I loved programming.

Even at the time, it was originally unimaginable that one could own a computer.

So I wanted to get my hands around a computer and there were only two places to do that.

One was in the physics department and the other one was in the econometrics department.

So I chose the econometrics guys.

I just liked this more practical problems there.

And I like to crack some more complicated things, you know.

So that made me work in consulting, which at that time was just barely invented, you know, and I enjoyed it.

tremendously seeing a number of different industries cracking complicated problems.

If you would have asked me, Klaus, do you ever want to become a CEO?

I would have said no, I have no desire.

But what happened then is when I then moved from consulting to bigger companies, you know, and I realized that a lot of the times the people I worked for directly, I felt that they made the wrong decisions.

And I thought, well, I think I can do this better and I can influence the people who work for them in a much more positive way.

So it motivated me.

And in the end, you know, I ended up running Siemens and was the youngest CEO that Siemens had ever selected.

Take me there for a second.

So you joined Siemens.

What were some of the initial roles and how did you position yourself to keep climbing the ladder?

I mean, Siemens was a client of mine in the consulting firm.

And I then decided I wanted to leave consulting and go into an operative role.

So I interviewed, but I didn't even interview with Siemens because I felt I knew them quite well and I wanted something else.

So I went into the pharmaceutical industry, left to go to Switzerland, and worked for what now is Novardis in the pharma division.

And they were crazy enough to allow me a role in the central nervous system drugs part, which was insanely, insanely interesting, one of the most interesting jobs I've literally ever done.

I would not have left it, you know.

But the Siemens folks knew that my wife was working as a civil servant in Munich and would not have that easily been able to transfer to Switzerland.

So, they offered me a very attractive position.

And so I joined Siemens.

So you joined Siemens.

And again, some people are right now kind of mid-career, maybe in some kind of a senior manager role, a director role, and they're trying to figure out how can I prove myself?

How can I climb up the ladder?

Like, what are some of the things that you think you did to position yourself more ready to eventually take on such an incredible role?

I tell you, I don't know how many times I've had with colleagues in my age at that time that had their own spreadsheets of who is at what age and what is the best position and God knows what.

I always thought that that's a waste of time, a complete waste of time.

I also thought it's a waste of time to listen to the HR folks who tell you this is the career path, you know.

So I always thought in the end, you have to be your own entrepreneur.

And one of my mottos was, I love it, change it or leave it, right?

And I've always lived by that.

right so even when I didn't have money but the other principle was I want to create value for the people who I work for.

And the value very often was of a nature that they didn't necessarily ask me to do that.

So I used my own brain and I used what I saw as the potential solution of moving forward and then got onto it, right?

And made suggestions.

Some of the stuff I did in my free time.

But I didn't do it out of the motivation that I wanted.

to shine or something.

I just did it because I thought this will be good for the business, it will be the right thing.

Exactly.

And in a way,

I was betting on in the end, people will also give you better opportunities.

That didn't always work, by the way.

And large organizations, this is sometimes very bureaucratic.

I had one boss who told me, hey, because

I was there and I felt for a year and I felt I didn't really learn much.

And I was rather in the role of, even though I was the youngest in the department to teach.

So I had a conversation with my boss and the boss basically said to me, hey, Klaus, you have to first adopt the smell of the stall, the stable or whatever you want to translate that.

And I thought, what on earth is that?

So if we are here in an environment where seniority counts, I mean, talent, it hates senior.

I always thought it has to be about performance.

And if performance doesn't get gratified, then I'm out.

Simple as that.

And again, that is the hunger that kept you going.

Talk to me a little bit about the day or whatever that was, like that you actually realized that you got the CEO role.

What was it like?

And was it exciting?

Was it scary?

Was it worrying?

Like, how did that take you?

No, it was rather, first of all, it doesn't happen like this.

It's not, I mean, in large companies, it's a longer process.

But you realize at a certain point in time, you may have a shot.

And I liked it, to be honest, you know.

But then came the time when Siemens announced, the then ceo announced that he is considering to retire and and some people obviously on purpose also sneaked out a couple of names who were contestants you know so that is the worst the worst that you can do i mean i mean some people think that that's helpful because you test the people i think that's awful to be honest you know so because you drive away your best people and and it was like i mean I was wearing a little red dot on my on my forehead internally.

People were trying to shoot me from back and center you know so um that was not pleasant you know and then when i took the position formally i felt very very well prepared because i had worked in a lot of different industries a lot of different businesses i thought i knew the company very well i had had many many conversations even tons of data points on what i thought what should be made differently and unfortunately also we had quite a dramatic situation on our hand because at that time about a third of siemens CMENS was in a very bad situation.

It was all the IT and the telecom business that was sliding very, very fast.

And we had to fix that.

So that immediately started with a pretty dramatic turnaround,

which was not pleasant.

So talk to me a little bit about it because, again, I think...

CEO at the end of the day, it doesn't matter like how much, how many people you have around you, is a pretty lonely place.

And it's a lot of decisions, it's a lot of challenges, there's a lot of conviction that you need to build within yourself that this is the right idea how did you take it or how did you build yourself to it how did you cope with things it's good to have a number of mentors and fortunately i had a lot and many of those i mean i would not call formal mentor relations relationships just people who I admired is the wrong word, whose judgment I liked, you know, appreciated, like, and it's not that I would immediately take their advice, but I would listen to it because they have more experience.

Have I forgotten certain perspectives?

And I always had that.

Partially, you know, because when you grow up without a father, you always, I think, implicitly look for father figures, you know, so that was natural to me.

That was one thing, but in the end, this is a lonely job.

And the most important decisions you have to make on your own.

And the tragedy really is that with which people only realize when they are in such a situation, you know, very often you make a decision and you know the alternatives.

You've thought about the alternatives probably more in depth and studied this more in depth than anybody on this planet.

So you make a decision, there's no good alternative.

All alternatives are having have crap on there.

And you make a decision and you think this is the best alternative of all the crap that you have.

The next day you read in the paper or you see on TV, you know, how you're getting dragged in the mud because some idiot journalist, you know, writes up all the things that are the negatives.

They don't know and you can't tell them what the alternatives are because you don't want to make the situation even even worse and and there is sometimes this this moment where you think ah you know

if only i could but you can't and then you have to suck it up and basically say okay fine that comes with a job to think that this is a pleasant experience would not be the right description you know so

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Now, back to the show.

Is there a specific episode that you remember, a challenge that you're allowed to talk about that kind of

shaped you?

Because again, it could be incredibly hard.

I don't know if you sleep at night, but you know, some of these things come up at three in the morning.

I think also because I started having a really paid job when I was 12, you know, and from then on, I've never stopped working.

So, I've seen a lot, and I've never

seen it from the bottom, the bottom of the bottom of the bottom, bottom, you know, so until I made it to the top, you know, so that helps, that helps.

So you actually never forget the perspective.

You have the you have different perspectives.

What is the bottom?

The bottom was filling in racks at the supermarket around the corner in the morning, you know, so and the most hated place was the milk rack, you know, because in summertime the milk rack, if that didn't work out well, I tell you that was not the most pleasant way to get into the day before school.

Definitely not, you know.

So but it also was fun.

I mean, come on, it was a lot, a lot of funny things also.

So, otherwise, I wouldn't have done it, you know, and it paid.

It gave me real money.

So, that was the important thing.

Take me to a challenging moment as a CEO that you had to force.

On the challenging moment side, I think I saw very often that people were not making decisions.

They did it probably out of the good heart that they didn't want to hurt the person who was in some type of a leadership position.

But what they didn't see is what is really happening with all the people who are reporting to this individual, you know, and that's one thing.

The other thing that I realized is that I always believed I have to, whatever I do, you know, there's a good thing in everyone, you know, and I want to treat everybody with respect, even if I have a difficult message to convey.

You know, so I've let a lot of people go, but I think in, I hope in most, if not all cases, I've done it with showing them that it doesn't mean that I have no respect for the individual.

However, the role the individual is in needs some other capabilities that I have not seen in this person.

I've seen very often that when you have this conversation, two things happen.

One is that the person basically is surprised about the feedback because the individual has not had that feedback before.

That particularly happens when I came into a new environment, you know, and looked at the leadership and I realized that there had not been a good feedback culture before.

That's painful, but the other thing that I also realized that most people actually realized how true it was and they suffered from it implicitly because they were knowing that they didn't live up and it was burning into them and they didn't enjoy the job.

And in a way, it was almost like a burden falling off them, you know, and

I still remember that's not always the case,

but I still remember somebody who I very much admired, you know, it was in my early days, you know, and I told him, look, I mean, this is not the place for you.

And you have many, many many talents, but this is not the place.

This will kill you, literally burn you out, you know.

So he was so mad with me.

I happened to meet him again, and we had a longer conversation two years ago at

a friend's 60s birthday party, you know.

And he walked up to me and he said, Hey, Klaus, I really want to thank you for that moment, you know, because he's happily married.

He has a super, has had a super life and did something that was so fitting to what his skills are, you know, and has achieved things in life that he never thought were possible.

But he said, if I had stayed in that, I would have continued to be unhappy, you know?

And that's, I mean, that's wonderful.

That's really wonderful.

I love that, Klaus, because I think, you know, I talked to Sahil Bloom, I think it was, that talked to me about how having a good job that is not yours is actually worse than a bad job, right?

Because a bad job, you constantly know, or a bad situation, you're like, I need to fix it, I need to fix it.

But a good thing that isn't yours, it's not the right fit, is really hard because it's basically like, you know, if you feel like you're handcuffed into this thing, it's comfortable, and you're not going to take the action until somebody helps you out, right?

So, I mean, it's kind of that.

I think it's also the problem that many people shy away from making a decision because they have this enormous fear, you know.

And I think fear is a really bad decision maker.

I always call fear as an acronym, false expectation appearing real.

And i i think this is very true because it's this ambiguous thing very often we don't even want to think about it it gives us shudders you know leaving the job oh my god yes it's terrible oh my god tomorrow my boss is gonna treat me badly you know and and dress me down in front of everybody you know but i'm losing the job

but in reality then if you think about when people make these decisions and courageous decisions where they had fear before and analyze them and also look hindsight how has it worked out I think in most cases you'd see that many of these things that you were thinking would happen what did not happen and what would have happened if you had stayed in this I mean you see it also in relationships if you had stayed in the relationships you would have ended up doing having a very very unh unhappy life and Ilana I mean you you I think you've read the book you know I have a chapter in there on what can we learn from the dying you know and there is this one study about what do people say on their deathbed and I think to me it's one of the most chilling chapters I have in the book, you know, what do they say on their deathbed?

And I mean, and they say, I wish I had allowed myself to be more myself, listen to myself and not listen to others.

And the worst one is, I wish I had allowed myself to be happier.

You know,

that is profound.

And it's profound because the realization there that happiness is inside of them.

They can choose.

And that's the other thing on the emotional energy side.

You know, people have to understand the emotion is in you.

You can choose, right?

And yes, the environment sometimes triggers a lot, but then you can also choose to leave the environment.

And I think that's brilliant.

And I mean, this is a chilling realization, I think, because I think regret is a really hard feeling because you can't fix a lot, right?

I mean, and I think this is where there's like a lot of sorrow, like a lot of sadness about a missed life, right?

And I think Daniel Pink had a book all about regret, which it's amazing how similar ideas these are, right?

And most people regret things they did not take action on, not the thing that they took action that did not work well, which is kind of interesting.

Was there like a certain situation where it kind of woke you up to the whole idea of mindset and energy?

I was for a good part of my life of the belief that it's all about time management.

I mean, having grown up in Germany, discipline, time efficiency, that's the thing.

And also,

I was completely in that, you know, until one evening, at that time, I was working in New York.

One of my colleagues,

who was also a good friend, you know, comes to my office and he knew how to poke me.

And he said, Klaus, you've been all wrong.

And I said, all wrong on what?

And he says, on your metaphor of life.

My metaphor of life was life is like an ultra-marathon, you know, and I was running marathons at the time.

And I said, okay, tell me what you know and he said no life is not about ultra marathons it's a sprint and then a rest you know and it's all not about managing time it's about managing energy and that got us into a really good late night discussion battle you know which he won i have to admit and and that made me then look at okay what is this really and i had noticed before so it was not an entirely new thought i love to play tennis and i had noticed before that something was going on in the tennis world we saw this phase where people were shooting up and then burning down, but then all of a sudden, you know, you had people staying in top for longer and playing for longer and they got older and older and older and stayed at the top.

So I wasn't quite sure what exactly happened there, but I thought there's something going on there that one should probably learn from.

And in reality, I mean, these guys who are in high-performance sports or special units, they had figured it out.

It's all about energy, you know, and what does it mean energy?

It's about physically being strong you know treating your body mind and soul well and also mind plays a major role and soul too you know so and so that got me onto that track so that's amazing because again i didn't believe mindset exists i didn't i believe that you can just persevere through anything and you know if something gets in the way you just work harder right right like let's go

So that's where I was for many, many years.

And in fact, I think one of my shame areas is that it's not that nobody said anything is that i wasn't receptive to listening like i think that every time i i heard the word mindset or they heard the phrase energy i was just like oh this is a bunch of crap let's go it's for it's for losers this is for losers i gotta be like

so tell me how did you morph but also how did you take others with you How do you do it when you need to work really, really hard, especially when you have very demanding roles?

I think everybody has that you know we we don't want to talk about that in business you know what we are strong you know we can do anything we there's no we don't admit any

even if we have a bad day we have a really great day today don't we so

exactly

i always approached it from the perspective of performance my i mean i would not have bought into it if i would not have always looked at how is that working for performance so my optimization criterion was always performance, right?

What really cracked the code was looking at sports because if you look at top sports and for me it was tennis, you know, but in the end it was tennis I think was one of the first that discovered it because it's a really brutal single person on the court.

You lose most of the time, you know, you're not number one is number one.

That's the person who walks away with money.

The rest is crap.

you know, out of 300, you know, so you lose a lot, a lot, a lot, you know.

So that's why I thought this is interesting what's happening there.

And so I started reading some of the books and saw what they were doing and

that convinced me.

And then I also saw that in the special unit side, I mean, this thing of mental training, how that works, you know, and that this is real and that you can get your performance up.

So I tried stuff out.

I tried neuro-linguistic programming.

I thought was cool, super, super cool.

It was very interesting that even though already at university, I tried to meditate, I thought this is such for douchebags.

I can never do that.

That's a waste of complete waste of time.

I learned, however, a thing called autogenous training, which is a self-hypnosis technology developed in the 18s, you know, by a guy called Schultz, which worked magically well, super, super well, you know.

So, okay, there was something there, but I realized also that it's all about breathing.

But frankly, until I realized breathing is so, so cool, you know, and for instance, when you are in a stressful situation to just get yourself into a more peaceful environment, you know, and

have much more focus, much more capability to process by just simply controlling your breath, simply controlling your breath, you know.

And then simple things like, which I saw actually in almost all really great leaders, this aspect of compartmentalization.

you know, of basically

having capabilities to switch from one thing to another, you know, or managing your emotions and mindset perspective on what you see.

I mean, how many times have I seen that everybody sees something negative?

I see that there's an opportunity, you know?

Those things I saw were real and one could use the playbook and use that playbook to also increase the performance for oneself as well as for a whole team.

This is incredible, Klaus.

I needed to learn this the hard way.

but it was actually interesting and you you shared a little bit of a sport.

At some point, I decided to do what is called an iron distance triathlon or iron man

and you know it's a long day right it's like i don't remember like two 4.4 miles swim and 180 kilometers bike ride and a marathon at the end or whatever you know when i was training the hard piece is the training right and i remember coming to work and i had a good friend that was looking at me and he was like ilana you look like crap right and for me at that point like i you know i was training training training and i was actually getting slower instead of faster.

And I was like, how is it possible?

So instead of slowing down, I would like slam even more training and more training and more training until that day when he's like, you look like you're going to collapse.

And it was true, right?

And the solution was to take two weeks' break.

And I'm like, I can't take a break.

Like,

the iron is right around the corner.

Like, I can't take a break.

I'm becoming slower instead of faster.

How can I take a break?

And actually, it's the break that actually saves me.

But I don't think that I realize it to the world of work like were you already like CEO of the different companies when you already realized that did you start operating in a different way that is true I yes at that time I wasn't already in a pretty senior leadership position when my mantra changed as I said I always saw it under the perspective of how can I become a better performer I never believed in this here's my private life here's my business life.

I always believed it's one life.

I have to integrate that.

I want to be a good father.

I want to be there for a family.

I want to have a good friendship group.

At the same time, I also want to be a great leader.

And also, I always saw this as one thing.

So I thought, this is great.

I can expand my tool set.

I can even get more stuff done, probably be a little more happy.

That's how I saw it.

And that's also, I mean, those who work together with me know that's exactly how I positioned it.

You know, and how, because it was what I still today think.

That was one of the reasons why I've written the book, because I want to make sure, I want to make sure that people get this kind of framework.

Because I've seen, interestingly, that also in the young generation, I mean,

particularly founders, people who started in the startup world, I saw that people already in their 20s have their burnout.

One person who I've worked very closely with almost died after a fun fundraising round, you know, because he had just a little cold and the cold was jumping and ignored it, was jumping to his heart, inflamed his heart, and that boom was it almost.

And I thought, wow, I mean, this is not right.

People, there is a different way and there's a better way.

And this better way will get you not less performance, but more performance, more energy, because in the end, it's all about how much energy you have, where you then want to apply it.

That's completely up to you, you know.

So then the question is, how do I get energy?

You know, how can I conserve energy?

You know, and then this other thing that was

important to me, what's the aspect of purpose?

What role does purpose play?

And purpose does to energy what a laser does to light.

It takes this diffuse thing of energy, focuses it around one thing and boom, you know, makes this extremely powerful.

I mean, my

simple indicator for whether you have found, it's not typically not one purpose.

Most people have more than one purpose, you know.

But if you have found some things, you know, how do you feel when you get up in the morning when the alarm clock rings?

You know, you think like, oh, another day where I have to schnapp myself.

It's only 20 20 more years until I retire.

There are people like this.

I met people like this.

I do.

I met people who could tell me exactly by the day, how many days I left until retirement.

Or do you say, bam!

I have a great day.

I have a great day today.

I have this meeting, this meeting.

It will get me much closer to what I want to do in life.

You know, and this meeting doesn't necessarily just mean meetings in business.

It also means, hey, I will spend some time with with my kids tonight.

You know, I have a special moment.

I took them, take them to dinner or take them to whatever, you know, to a game or so.

And that doesn't have to be big, you know, just have a sit-down, you know, over whatever, you know.

So that is the framework that I wanted to provide.

And I love that.

And I want to talk a little bit about it because I think burnout is real.

Anxiety is real.

And you're very vocal also about ways to recharge yourself, which I love because it's not necessarily with margaritas on the beach all day.

Like not everybody wants that, but what does it look like, right?

I mean, they still need to get the paycheck, or they need to find a job, or they need to find the funding.

Like, how do they find a way to balance and not burn themselves out to death?

Well, I think the first thing is to understand what sources of energy are there.

And to keep it very simple, it's body, mind, and soul.

And then, when it comes to body, body is probably the best understood today.

But even there, you know, most people understand.

understand you have to move your body, you have to stay recently fit, you have to eat recently well, don't overdo it with alcohol alcohol is a neurotoxin and other substances i also would like to mention that but there are some things like sleep that's very little known for years i thought sleep is for for weak people you know but now that we all have these wonderful devices that can measure what's really happening to you and it's really fascinating to see how sleep alters your capabilities you know so that's good breathing is the is the power drug i mean the ultimate power drug super everybody breathes it's easy to learn you do it anyway you know until the last day you know so so why don't you use it more effectively and to get oxygen into your body and to calm your nerves it does multiple things you know and then on the emotional side i think the fundamental thing is to understand emotions are inside of you So it's not like, oh my God, I'm angry.

I'm angry because this happened.

No, you decide to become angry and allow this because you allow this trigger to make you angry, right?

You have the absolute option to sit there and say, this does not affect me.

I mean, it affects me mildly.

I will not allow this to happen.

I will not allow this emotion to affect me.

So that's important.

And then there are obviously very strong emotions that we also don't talk about and almost overlooked that, isn't that sad to say?

Love.

Love is the most powerful in positive as well as negative ways, emotion.

And the also the interesting thing is there are ways, you know, how you can exert it and also how you can gratify yourself by gratitude.

If you do something for others, whether they know or not, I think you usually feel good about it and it gives you positive energy.

You know, so those are things you could call them little tricks, you know, but little tricks that go and you don't need any money for it.

You can do all kinds of things.

Oh, hold the door open, say a nice word to somebody, yeah random acts of kindness i call this you know so and i enjoy it i'm i'm a big big fan of random acts of kindness you know and then on the mindset side i mean i always tell the story which i because i feel it's so clear is of the old shoemaker who wants who has two sons he wants to pass on his business but he doesn't know which of the son has it so he sends them to africa one to the west coast one to the east coast the first one who goes to the east coast writes him a note and it says father i have very bad news there's no market here.

They are all barefoot.

The other one sends a note back and says, Father, send me as many shoes as you can find.

This market is endless.

Everybody is barefoot.

I do believe that one of the traits of really good leaders is in the mindset part.

I mean, as in others also, but very strongly in the mindset part.

I know that some of the top folks have trained themselves to always look to the contrarian side.

Whether you then adopt it or not, it's a different thing, you know, but to force yourself to say, okay, this is common wisdom, but is there another

way to look at it?

You know, I look at leaders, not by them explaining to me what went wrong in the past, why they couldn't make their numbers, but explaining to me what is going to happen.

I say, I want my leaders to look around the corner.

That is the skill of re-leadership.

Usually you know your business so well that you see things much earlier than others that others don't see.

When it's common wisdom you know what even children can see it but because it's in every paper you know but you see it i mean jeff bezos i mean he named his company he named his company amazon after the largest river on this planet because his idea from day one on he wanted to create an e-commerce company that is the largest river of goods you know on this planet and throughout his life this was the vision boom boom boom boom you know so that's on the mindset side and then the spiritual side it's another one of those those things that never never gets talked about i mean to have a belief in a higher being is giving you strength so i mean it's your decision whether you whether you want that or not you know but i can tell you from my own experience having been challenged often and early it was a very good decision that i have that belief we tend to bring not the data but the drama instead of like this is the fact that happened i got the rejection i got the whatever like that is the fact but now you're creating this whole story and drama around I'm never gonna be hired.

I'm too old, I'm not relevant.

Like, you create this entire world of drama.

And I think you said it so beautifully.

It's not the challenges that stop us, it's the beliefs around these challenges.

It's that fact that now with this belief, now we're not taking action because we're thinking again about the drama instead of like, okay,

is there an actually potential, right?

Like, what is going on here?

You had a post on LinkedIn that basically said, hey, gone fishing.

You know, like, I'm basically,

you know, a salute, right?

For a while.

But then I said also that I don't shut off, you know.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Because again, you find your own ways to recharge and what fuels you.

But I think there's some shame.

And I want you to help me.

cut to the shame, Klaus, because you've done all the things.

You've been a CEO.

You've been investor, chairman, da-da-da-da-da, author now.

Like you've done all the things, and still there's no shame in saying, I'm going to recharge by Asta Luego right how should a person that is trying to create more of themselves and be relevant and work harder and how do they do that

yeah I put bygone fishing in there but to explain exactly that the thing that is not commonly admitted you know today people say oh you know you have to completely do to the digital detox I can do it.

I mean, because I remember at times, you know, when I couldn't that easily get hold of my office.

and then I came back after one or two weeks somewhere and all this stuff had happened and I thought my God I wish I had never been away from my desk you know

in my view this is more liberating you know if done if done right you know so obviously I have an office and the office knows knows how to prioritize and and that they just reduce the workload on me so so I will not I mean for for a time there I will not work with the same workload, but I will not completely disconnect.

That's what completely stressed me out, completely stressed me out.

Frankly, also, if you are in a normal business to completely disconnect, you know.

very difficult, very difficult.

The higher you rise, I think it's almost impossible, really almost impossible, right?

So I think that's more natural.

And you have to find a way how you still recharge, you know, and my routines, those times, I can do more things that recharge me.

But I also, in my normal life, will have times of recharge.

You know, it's not like, hey, here is business, here's life, and only then will I do that.

So it's rather a normal process.

One of the best advice I ever got from a friend when I became CEO, by the way, who said, Klaus, you now have to, every beginning of the year, lock in vacation times, you know, and into your calendar.

And I said, why, why?

He said, do it, because otherwise you will never be able to go anywhere, do anything.

And I did that.

And he was right.

I never took all the times that I put in there, you know, but at least you have some periods where you can say, hey, let's go for a long weekend.

Let's do this.

Let's spend the night in the opera.

You know, let's go with the kids someplace.

If I wouldn't have blocked that, you know, all the stuff that's happening overrides it and you suddenly, your life has been eaten up.

eaten up and you allow others to run your life instead of yourself.

And I love that because because I think there's a reason why on planes they tell us to put our own oxygen mask on, right?

If we don't have our own oxygen mask on, we can't take care of not the teams, not people around us, not right?

Like it's just impossible.

I love this conversation.

I think it is very, very missing from the world of wah wah wah, let's do it.

So you do have the two extremes, like the wah, let's do it, and the complete detox, but you don't have, let's just prioritize, you know, like our own things are important for us and just make them work because you can have it all just not at the same time so let's just kind of prioritize in a way that keeps our sanity yeah exactly but i think both sides i mean i think that rah rah let's go let's go let's go and we're gonna fight it and we're gonna win the sprint is even stronger even stronger if you go go at it relaxed you've had your time it's also interesting that people should not think about it hey if i do a sprint let's say for two days that i need two days of rest that's not the way it works you sometimes have routines.

I mean, in tennis, they have this routine that every top tennis player has rehearsed until the end, you know, that during the surf, 20 seconds maximum time allowed.

They have this routine where they literally have a movie going on through their mind that reframes them, reframes them, entirely reframes them, you know.

And the moment the new serve comes, they are literally a different person, you know.

So you can screw with your mind in a very positive way.

And you should, you should learn these things.

A friend of mine, you know, who is, who works in Hong Kong, you know, in a high-rise, he gives his cell phone to his assistant, drives down with the elevator, walks around the block a couple of times, you know, enjoys the lovely noise and chaos in Hong Kong, then moves up again, you know.

And if somebody call the assistant say, yeah, he will come back in a few minutes, I call you back, blah, blah, blah.

Then he gets on it.

And that's reset.

Others I know close the door and say, let me just close my eyes.

I do a breathing exercise for 10 minutes.

And and i guarantee you 10 minutes you'll be recharged you know so there's different things that happen some people just listen to a piece of music you know i'm a big music thing for me music big big thing you know i listen to one three and a half minutes a song you know and boom i'm a changed person instead of plowing through you know so there's very very different things that you should learn how to recharge and also learn how to not exert energy when it's unnecessary you don't have to respond aggressively jump out of your chair.

The Japanese do some of this very well.

They just close their eyes.

The higher up they are, you know, you see them sitting in the

meetings like this.

You never know are they asleep or what, you know, but some are asleep, that's true.

But many just recharge, listen, you know, with your eyes closed, you can actually listen better, you know, and become a superhuman performer.

Ooh, this is so powerful.

Klaus, what would be one thing that you wish somebody told you way earlier in your career that would have shaped you.

Take me there.

Like, what do you think was something that would be really, really helpful for you?

Well, the energy side, I wish I had known that earlier, would have actually allowed me even more, you know, to do more or do it more relaxed, probably.

Other than that, I mean, the thing also, when you get into a CEO position, the biggest surprise for me was the amount of

things that land on your desk.

because in reality, in most companies, I mean,

all the crap that the people below you can't solve, they all land on your desk.

And if you don't have a way to compartmentalize and stay sane, you get the impression as though this is a disaster zone that you're in.

You know, sometimes it is, by the way, but that's another story.

Another story for another day, for sure.

Sometimes I'm in the disaster zone.

And that suddenly you don't have a boss, but you have a group as a boss, the as a boss, you know, and that you suddenly go from talking to somebody who you know, you know what pressure points are there, you know what not to do and what to do.

But with a board, you have group group dynamics.

And in group dynamics, you have only two stable states.

And I've seen that many times.

Either they love you or they want you gone.

And the false belief that

in these environments it's all about performance and performance trumps everything, very false belief.

Tell me more.

Well, in group dynamics, there are a lot of variables that people consider

important for a decision, right?

So and many of those might be very personal and might have very little to do with the true performance.

So I work a lot with CEOs of companies these days and I know that that is one of the things that many have gotten surprised by and some unfortunately realized that early enough and some have been struggling with it.

But almost everybody is wondering what on earth is going on.

And again, it sounds like the way you change your mindset, your belief, the way you recharge all of this is what keeps you sane with all the things that you're involved today.

Klaus, anything else that people, listeners, should learn, should hear from you?

I think this point of purpose that we haven't talked about is one other thing.

We have talked a little bit about it.

And I actually used the book because I wanted to clarify for me what is this magic thing with purpose.

And because i always thought have i gotten this right and i hear so many people wonder oh i don't know what my purpose is blah blah blah i have a long chapter on this you know because purpose is the one thing that humankind has struggled with since beginning you know and there are many many intelligent people who have thought about it i do believe it's worthwhile to reflect on it to think about what gets you moving what do you want to do i mean do a couple of reflections on it So I think that's important because purpose is this magic thing that brings everything together.

And the other thing, idea you touched upon it a little bit before it's this self-talk you know and i think most people and that also comes with the reflection on purpose

to to figure out what purposes you want to follow you have to figure out who you are and that sounds like simple but in truth you have to establish some observer in your mind who is able to distinguish between all these things that come up in your mind and which are your own thoughts and which are thoughts that have been coming from outside or somebody gave you and that you have adopted without even knowing it and they are not really yours and they have not benefited.

They have not benefited you.

So to go through is kind of a systematic filtering process and say, well, is that really me?

You know, it doesn't matter if it came from somebody else and it's good, yeah, and you like it, then go for it.

you know but if it came from somebody else who sneaked it in you know and it is a limiting belief that has been following you all of your life, you know, then you rather throw it out the door quickly and give it a kick and never see it again.

This is important.

I see this again and again and again when you hear the self-talk and you very often you when you talk to people, you hear it in the words that they choose, you know, and

how they frame themselves, which often is limiting that they say, well, I believe I can only do this.

I'm good at this, you know, and very often you say, why, why do you think you cannot be good at that well I never tried it out or I've been told you know in my youth blah blah blah and say well is it really true yeah exactly is it really true you know that is super important and the other thing which is goes more into what I call the outer game is the question of how do you multiply yourself because frankly there's one thing that you can achieve but it's even better if you can build a high performance team and work with a team.

I am an addict to high performance teams and I've experienced fortunately many, many times in my life that I've been able to work in a team or even build up a high performance team and achieve things that I would have never in my life achieved on my own, right?

And how do you build this?

Because there is a relatively simple mechanism to do that.

How do you build that?

And I would highly recommend the higher you rise, you know, make sure that you look at your team not just as I lead my team and I'm the smartest man in the room, but I really want to create a high performance team that goes goes through thick and thin you know and where people basically have trust have have a commitment and are aligned around what winning looks like that's another interesting thing many times people don't understand what is it really that we want I mean their KPIs are 500 KPIs you can't figure it out so but what is it what is one thing that winning looks like you know so that's the cool thing about sports and sports everybody knows there's the goal you have to shoot through there that's when we win you know but in business when you ask I have had many times that people say oh my team is not really behind me and then when I talk to the team and say well what do you think winning looks like I get 500 different views you know because the leader has not expressed very clearly yes you have to do your part in it but this is ultimately what we want to do and in every in every special forces mission you know this is the goal you have this task, you have that task, but the goal is this, right?

And that's important to build a team and be aligned around the goal.

All these things are so, so, so critical.

And I think it boils down, first of all, as a leader, is what to say no to.

And I think that is so hard, right?

Like all the shiny objects sound really cool.

Can we all go all of them, right?

And I think as a leader, like the better you are at honing that and just saying, no, let's focus here, the more your team can actually go after that.

But I think you said another thing that I want to talk about, purpose.

So, and again, in Leap Academy, we have a lot.

Basically, that's what we do.

We help people reinvent themselves, figure out what is the zone of genius, what are the must-haves, right?

And I think one of the interesting thing is, first of all, that many, many times it's scary or it's uncool to admit what their new passion is or what their new purpose is, right?

Because it's not aligned with what their parents expected or what, you know, people expected from them or whatever it is.

Like it's the uncool thing to say.

The other thing is there's this myth about this is going to be your passion.

The problem is that when you're experimenting with something new, you don't know if it's your passion yet.

You didn't stack enough evidence to say that this is your passion.

You think that it could be interesting.

You think it's worth exploring and maybe experimenting.

But when you're expected to fall in love with this, I didn't fall in love with the idea of Leap Academy until it became one of the fastest growing companies in America.

You know what I'm saying?

Like, you don't fall in love until you have like stacking the evidence.

But I think this is also where this is an an era of every, you know, successful person will probably have multiple streams of ventures, incomes, things that they care about.

And sometimes it's for, you know, something that you're passionate about.

Sometimes it's something that creates income.

Sometimes it's something that creates status, volunteering, whatever.

Like, I think we're looking at a whole different level of future of careers and education and the way we're looking at life.

What are your thoughts around this?

And this is very good that you bring this up because I think that that is a misunderstanding particularly of young people and I've heard this unfortunately as at career advice way too often and I think it's wrong you know look for your passion is a very difficult very difficult one because if I look at my life my passion was not to refill supermarket racks no way no way my passion also was not to turn around companies I had no passion for this, you know.

However, my indicator was always where can i create a lot of value and do i think that i can do this and let me try this out and then i realized i was very good at it and the moment you are good at it you suddenly get this you know reinforcement you say it's fun

maybe it is my passion

it's really fun I like it, you know, and why do I like it?

Because I have results.

But go into something where you say, hey, this creates good value value for society, you know, or for my company or for business, you know.

And can I do something in this field where I think I probably have some skills?

Try it out.

I mean, there's this old rule of Malcolm Gladwell came out with, you know, and I think it's proven that I think a million times or so, you're a repetitions of a million times under guidance, you know, which is true.

I mean, I'm just listening to the Agassiz autobiography.

And when you see, I mean, how his father drove him, drove him through the tennis court from early childhood on and had the idea of this will be number one, there was no passion.

It was hate.

He admits it was a hate, you know.

But he became very good and he then enjoyed it.

You know, he also admits he enjoyed it.

He hated it, but he enjoyed it.

Passion is a different, different ballgame there, you know.

And I think he allowed him to lead a very fulfilled life.

You know, I'm not saying that as a father, you should drive your kid like this.

That's not what I'm saying, you know.

Just to clarify.

Well, my daughter will kick me out the door if I'll try.

So, you know, I mean, yeah, but there are some cultures where this is still quite acceptable.

That's true.

They do have their own, their own spirit, though.

Klaus, this was so so so fun.

I can probably talk to you for five more hours.

Seriously, this was so, so, so great.

And so many nuggets.

And folks, if you hear something that you love, write us.

Like, it makes our day.

Klaus, thank you for being on the show.

Well, Ilana, it was a pleasure, really.

And you made made it fun as a host.

I enjoyed the conversation really very, very much.

And I hope that the listeners will also do so.

I hope you enjoyed this as much as I did.

If you did, please share it with friends.

Now, also, if you're feeling stuck or simply want more from your own career, watch this 30-minute free training at leapacademy.com slash training.

That's leapacademy.com slash training.

See you in the next episode of the Leap Academy with Ilana Golanche.