The Grand Finale

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In his palatial estate known as Woodland, Robert Evans sits up in his bed.

He's still glued to the screen.

The movie has ended and the memories begin.

It's my most important legacy of life.

Evans holds firm to the conviction that he saved the movie, saved the studio, and in many ways elevated the glory of American film.

When you walked out of Godfather,

you're introduced to a different world.

As I would later write in the book, from this bed and from this man and those he appointed, the Godfather sprang forth.

It was a miracle on paper and on screen.

Created and inspired by the sons and daughters of immigrants, its characters were portrayed by a band of mitzvits who based their roles on a gang of miscreants, humanized to the point of being honorable.

The story endures as those who made it recede, leaving behind a testament to the glory of the American family and the steadfast belief in the American dream.

I'm Mark Seal.

And I'm Nathan King.

And this is Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli.

In our final episode, we're discussing the life, legacy, and legend of the cast, crew, and film.

Mark, when you walked into Woodland that day, did you know you would eventually write the definitive book on the making of the Godfather?

Not at all.

I just thought that I was going to do a magazine story, but I had no idea that I would later write a book about it and that it would consume my life for so many years.

After the article was published, I started thinking about writing the book.

And I was able to meet with Anthony Colombo, son of Joe Colombo, who headed the Italian-American Civil Rights League.

And we drove out to a diner in New Jersey.

And there he was.

He comes into the diner walking with a cane by then.

I think he was in his 60s, maybe.

And we talked for a long time, and he couldn't have been nicer.

And I tried to imagine him back in those days in the Park Sheridan Hotel with Al Ruddy speaking before the league.

You've said previously, Mark, when you're writing a magazine article like this, that casting a wide net is very important and talking talking to as many people as possible, no matter how inconsequential they seem.

Did you do that here?

Oh yes, of course.

You know, I tried to talk to as many people as I could for the article and then later for the book.

And it was amazing.

After the article came out, people would call and tell me facts that I couldn't have dug up any other way.

But it was nothing like after the book came out.

One man called and said his uncle had delivered the horse's head to the set.

There were so many unexpected but important additions that just came from the story being out there in the world.

Who was the most unexpected character you talked to?

Well, maybe Marilyn Stewart, because I hadn't really read anything about her.

There's not one interview that I could find.

But I called the number that I had found for her and she answered the phone.

And it was like, it seemed like she was expecting my call, which of course she couldn't have been, but she was just ready to tell her story and what a story she had to tell.

You know, she came on, she was Paramount's head of publicity and promotion, and she just started before the movie was even shot, you know, fostering its image, making sure that she got the magazine covers and all the television shows.

And I just thought she was a great window into the Godfather's past and how it became such a sensation worldwide.

I want to talk a little bit more about the reporting aspect of it, how you sort of organize your thoughts and figure out who to talk to.

Someone like Janet Snow, for instance, is that someone whose name just comes up in the course of interviewing someone else and then one thing leads to another?

That was a great story.

So Janet Snow had not been interviewed either.

I mean, maybe she had, but I had not seen any interviews with her.

And I was talking to Gray Frederickson, and he goes, oh, my gosh, Mario had an assistant during those days, and he couldn't remember her name at first.

And he just said, oh, Janet Snow.

And I called Janet and she, right off the bat, told me this incredible story about Mario Puzzo arriving in Hollywood and that story about the white Lincoln Continental.

And I went, oh my gosh, it was just like too wild to believe.

You know, as you're putting together a portrait of somebody for a book, you're just trying to get as much clay as you can to build the character.

And Mario had done lots of interviews, so there was a lot about him in print.

But a person like Janet Snow, who was there when Mario arrived in Hollywood and drove him from Paramount to the Beverly Hills Hotel, I mean, you can't get much better than that.

And it's interesting because while they're in very different situations, Mario's a huge successful author and Janet's a relative nobody, they're both neophytes in their own way in this Hollywood world.

And I think that's enough to bring them together.

Yes, and they were both fairly young.

Mario's in his 40s, and he was new to that world.

Plus, Janet had a magical story to tell about how she got the job.

You know, you open a door and these stories just come flooding out.

Like, I'll never forget going to James Kahn's home in Beverly Hills when I was researching the article.

And I walk in, and there was a huge drawing of the godfather on his wall.

It was Don Corleone and his three sons, including Sonny, who was played by James Kahn.

I think, you know, with a lot of those guys, not just the Italians, obviously.

Like I said, you know, the immigrants couldn't get a job working with three cents.

So, you know, so they did what they had to do out of need.

And we spent, I think, three hours that day talking about the movie and his role and how he prepared for the part, how he got the part.

What was it like interviewing James Kahn?

Because he's obviously an actor, but also sort of a street guy.

Did you find him very easy to interview and affable?

Oh, certainly.

And later, when I called him for the book, he was incredibly forthcoming.

I talked to him for another, I think, two hours and then called him again for another hour or so.

He was so giving and generous with his time.

Was there somebody that you picked up mannerisms from?

Like you did, like the Rickles idea?

Well, Andrew was my closest friend, you know, and he had certain energy.

You know, there's a certain energy about Rickles when he was younger, you know, which he still has today in his 80s, you know, but it's obviously not as sharp.

None of us are as sharp.

But I can just see that bottom being lines coming out of Rickles.

Yeah, well, that's where it came.

You know, I don't know.

I wish I'd had the foresight to like, what do you call it, copyright that thing.

I could have made money.

I wouldn't be begging.

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Another great thing that I was privileged to do was research the life of the actor who played Luca Brothsey, Lenny Montana, who is one of the most unforgettable characters in the movie.

He was a former wrestler and some say a bodyguard.

I was able to dig up some really old newspapers about him and there's one where he tells the story of going to visit his mother in suburban New York.

At the same time they were filming the godfather there and had been looking for the perfect actor to play Luca who had to be a mountain of a man.

And they had gone through several potential actors, all professionals, but none were quite right.

Anyway, Lenny is visiting his mother, and Al Ruddy looks out on the crowd that's gathered around the set and sees this colossal man behind the barricades.

He takes Lenny Montana to meet Francis Coppola in his trailer.

Lenny's head was probably scraping the ceiling because he was so big and Coppola looks up at him and says, that's Luca Brozzi.

We mentioned earlier that Robert Evans passed away in 2019, just before we started making this show.

Sadly, he wasn't the only one.

There were six or seven other characters in the Godfather story who died while we were making this podcast.

Yeah, just to name a few.

Al Ruddy died this year.

Eleanor Coppola, Roger Corman, Robert Towne, the screenwriter who wrote the majestic succession scene.

Fred Ruse died this year.

James Kahn two years ago.

I mean, it's amazing.

Time takes its toll.

This is a movie that was made 50 years ago.

So a lot of time has passed, and a lot of people who gave so much to the film have passed along with it.

One thing we should talk about is the proliferation of conflicting accounts and specifically how you chose whose to believe.

Well, honestly, I didn't want to choose and I don't really think it's my job to take aside and make a choice.

All of the stories were so fascinating and in the absence of any conclusive evidence about who was right, who was wrong, I just decided to present all the versions to readers and let them decide.

And I feel like we've done the same thing with this podcast.

But it was a pretty chaotic time.

And Ira Zuckerman's Godfather Journal was such a great help because he was there every day and documented every single day of filming in such detail that you really couldn't quite argue with that because that seemed to be the definitive fly-on-the-wall account.

I mean, there's very few movies where you have someone who's written a day-to-day diary of everything that happened.

And so it was a real treasure to have that as a resource.

And what about Gianni's version of events?

I like his account the best.

What were you like personality-wise like that?

Same as any of them.

Never changed.

Don't care about nothing.

We got to leave.

I'll jump out the window.

We leave.

We take a shot.

See you later.

I don't care about that.

I started from nothing.

Well, yeah, of course, because Gianni Russo has a way of telling these things that they make them them come alive, you know, but so many others do as well.

I mean, Al Ruddy is the same way.

And of course, Bob Evans, I mean, he's the same way.

And Francis Coppola is a professional storyteller.

They're all amazing storytellers.

After working on this podcast, it's hard not to feel like making a movie is a completely foolish endeavor because you have all of these conflicting personalities tossed together in one place.

And, you know, you're all working toward a common goal, but it seems like things are bound to go wrong more often than not.

Yeah, it's a miracle that any movie gets made, isn't it?

Because all the personalities, money, logistics, there's so many ways for things to go wrong.

It's not unusual for a movie not to work out, and The Godfather is a rare case where the ending was happy and the alchemy worked against all odds.

I think that directors like Francis Ford Coppola get a lot of flack for being almost authoritarian in their pursuit of getting what they want.

But you can kind of see where that would be a benefit in making The Godfather, because you need someone with such a determined vision and sense of purpose.

There has to be a captain of the ship, right?

Mark, we know the movie did well financially, but did the people involved?

Well, there's conflicting stories once again about this.

You know, some people said they got rich off of the movie, but really the actors were paid minimal salaries, I guess $35,000, I think, for some, and that was for the established ones.

Al Ruddy said he had points and he did well on it, but one thing is clear of all is that Paramount made a lot of money.

Robert Evans told me that day in Woodland that being the head of production, he didn't have any points, so he didn't make any money off the movie personally.

But, you know, it gave him a springboard to do other things when he became an independent producer.

So it's another mystery of the Godfather about who made what on the movie, but here's how Al Ruddy described it in our interview.

You got to understand, nobody ever envisioned the success of this movie.

Everyone worked for scale.

So Classic

got some points.

Mario had two and a half points, and I had seven points.

But they don't, who cared was net profit.

You know what they say, it's not worth the paper it's written on, right?

Right.

Net profits.

Except this movie went through the roof.

If there was any doubt about how the movie did or was received in Coppola's mind or anyone else's, it was eradicated when the 1973 Oscars came around.

Mark, can you talk a little bit about that?

The Godfather was nominated for 10 awards at the 1973 Oscars.

Best Picture, Brando as Best Actor, Coppola for Best Director, Coppola and Puzo for Best Adapted Screenplay, and for Best Supporting Actor, three of them.

Al Pacino, James Kahn, and Robert Duvall.

They also had nominations for costume, editing, and sound.

When the envelopes were opened, it was Mario Puzzo and Francis Ford Coppola for Best Adaptive Screenplay.

And they said that Mario decided not to go because he was too worried about having to give a speech.

So he watched it from home in suburban New York.

Brando won Best Actor, but probably in one of the most famous events in Oscar history, he didn't attend.

And instead, he sent an emissary on his behalf, a woman named Sashine Little Feather, who got up and gives a speech about what had been happening at Wounded Knee.

Hello, my name is Sashine Littlefeather.

I'm Apache, and I'm president of the National Native American Affirmative Image Committee.

I'm representing Marlon Brando this evening, and he has asked me to tell you in a very long speech, which I cannot share with you presently because of time, but I will be glad to share with the press afterwards that he very regretfully cannot accept this very generous award.

And the reasons for this being

are the treatment of American Indians today by the film industry,

excuse me,

and on television, in in movie reruns,

and also with recent happenings at Wounded Knee.

I beg at this time that I have not intruded upon this evening and that we will, in the future, our hearts and our understandings will meet with love and generosity.

Thank you on behalf of Marlon Brando.

It's fair to say that everyone was stunned by Sashi and Little Feather's speech.

Another surprise was to come shortly thereafter in the form of the Best Picture Award.

And the winner.

And the winner?

Albert S.

Ruddy.

Godfather.

Let me do this quickly in two parts because I know it's past midnight in New York and some of my relatives want to go to to sleep.

There are a number of people I would like to thank as everyone else would because they deserve it.

Bob Evans for giving more than any studio head should in time and creativity.

Frank YeBlanche for having the courage and imagination to sell this film and make my mother rich.

Charlie Bludorn for having the courage to finance films, which I guess borders on insanity.

And Peter Bart,

who was a friend all the way through.

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Let's talk about legacy.

The film sort of eclipses the careers of most of the people who made it.

Yeah, it's like every person who touched the movie has this asterisk next to their name that says the godfather.

Well, let's start with the obvious, Francis Ford Coppola.

Despite the success of the first movie, Coppola was so scarred that that he didn't want to make a sequel, but then Charlie Bluedorn talked him into it.

Yes, the story goes that Coppola initially didn't want to do it, but then Hurricane Charlie erupted.

Francis, you've got the recipe for Coca-Cola and you don't want to manufacture any more bottles of Coke.

And whatever happened, Coppola ended up signing on for Godfather 2, and after that, Godfather 3.

And of course, Charlie Bludorn wanted to make Godfather 4, 5, and 6 as well.

This movie changed Coppola's life.

Well, for better and for worse, but mostly for better.

You know, time heals all wounds.

And recently, Coppola told Rolling Stone that he saw The Godfather as a gift.

He said the movie opened up the world to me.

Some of the greatest people in the world have wanted to talk to me simply because I was the guy who made that film.

What about Mario Puzzo?

What happens to him afterwards?

Well, Mario Puzzo became a superstar screenwriter.

He became rich.

He became famous.

He could gamble all he wanted.

I love what his son told me via email.

He told me, now that he had money, look out.

He would buy books instead of taking them out of the library.

He'd rented a house in Malibu.

You know, he would eat whatever he wanted.

He would gamble whenever he wanted.

I think he still loved the good life of Hollywood and of course Las Vegas.

He wrote a book about Las Vegas that was sort of a love letter to the city and what it meant to him.

And in addition to writing many more novels, he wrote the screenplay to Superman, so he maintained his Hollywood ties.

Another person who went on to have an amazing career, Robert Towne.

Yes, Robert Towne became the dean of Hollywood screenwriters.

He wrote Chinatown and so many other movies that became classics.

And he wasn't famous when Coppola brought him in, but he had certainly worked on other projects.

He'd done Bonnie and Clyde and McCabe and Mrs.

Miller.

And then The Godfather was probably his first big big project.

Yeah, and I love the story of how he came up with that incredible scene, the succession scene.

It was late in the night in New York, and Coppola was going to pick him up the next morning to take him to the set.

And he was looking at the cover of Mario Puzzo's novel, you know, with the invisible puppeteer holding the strings, you know, with those strings dangling down.

And he said it was like at four in the morning, the line came to him, and it was just this incredible line that would sum up so much, and it became one of the most classic scenes in the movie.

Listen to this list of movies he went on to write after that: The Last Detail, Parallax View, Chinatown, Shampoo, The Missouri Breaks, Days of Thunder, The Firm, Mission Impossible 1 and 2.

Yeah, pretty incredible list.

Robert Towne once said that he was not really interested in writing novels, that he just wanted to write movies, and listen to that list of movies that he wrote.

I mean, he's one of the greatest screenwriters in Hollywood history.

What was Charlie Bluedorn's legacy like at Paramount?

Charlie Bluedorn saved the studio in the end with The Godfather and other movies later.

But sadly, Charlie passed away at a fairly young age.

He lived in the Dominican Republic where he built this amazing resort, but he died on a, they say, on a plane coming home.

So he missed out on seeing so much, and I would have loved to have obviously spoken with him.

But he's remembered by everyone whose path he crossed.

What about Al Ruddy?

What happens to him afterwards?

So Al Ruddy remained vital until the end.

He produced both The Godfather and Million Dollar Baby, winning Best Picture Oscars for both.

And he died at 94 years old last May.

And about two weeks before he passed away, I spoke to him again.

He was the same Al Ruddy as always, you know, talking a mile a minute.

His memory was sharp, and he was really excited about this podcast and wanted to do whatever he could to help, which is typical Al, the quintessential producer, the man who gets things done.

When we came back from Sicily, I went through New York and they said they wanted to do a sequel.

And I told straight out, I said, I have no interest, listen to me, no interest in ever doing a movie again.

But this mob,

I got lucky, I got out, I've been happy, I've been one piece, I could never get more out of it.

And regardless of the fact that he didn't work on subsequent Godfather movies, he clearly cared about the movie's legacy a lot because he worked on the offer.

Yeah, the offer was really molded around his life.

It was his story.

Miles Teller played Al Ruddy, you know.

He was the central character.

You You didn't get a chance to interview Brando because he was dead by the time you started working on this.

But if you could have, what would you have asked him?

I would have loved to have known in his own words about how he made the transformation into Don Corleone.

But Alice was able to tell me a lot.

And also she was able to tell me his reluctance to play a mobster.

He didn't want to do it at first.

And he only wanted to do it when he heard that they were thinking about Lawrence Olivier.

He goes, he can't play a mafia Don.

And Alice said she looked in and he was like using shoe polish to create a mustache and dye his eyebrows.

And she goes, no, that's not right.

Do it like Brando.

But I would have liked to have asked him about that.

Let's move on to Evans.

So you spoke with Evans in 2008, which is 11 years before his death.

What were his reflections on the film and its legacy?

He said it was his greatest legacy, but it was also a failure for him personally in many ways because he chose the Godfather over his personal life and that was slipping away from him.

That day in Woodland, I'll never forget the line that he said.

He said, it's so long ago.

So many people are dead.

And he proceeded to rattle off everyone who had died in the interim, which at that point was already quite long.

Richard Castellano, Marlon Brando, John Casal, and so forth.

And so he had some regrets for sure, but at the same time, he was really proud of the movie and all that the movie had achieved.

As I wrote in the book, he felt that he had fostered it, and much of its success was due to him.

Which, you know, as the head of the studio, he had the right to believe.

If the filming process was rough for Robert Evans, it got even rougher after The Godfather came out, didn't it, Mark?

Well, at first it went all right.

He produced Chinatown, starring his close friend Jack Nicholson, but not long after that, he left Paramount to become an independent producer.

And that's when he started to struggle a little bit.

As I wrote in the book, he descended into darkness for a period.

There was a misdemeanor cocaine trafficking plea in 1980, the box office disaster of the Cotton Club in 1984, his entanglement in a murder scandal stemming from the film, and the eight torturous years it would take him to clear his name.

Also, I thought it was interesting, his wealth, which is, you know, pretty much always the ultimate measure of success or failure in Hollywood, dropped from $11 million in 1979 to $37 a decade later.

He had to sell his beloved home, Woodland, and he was only able to buy it back with the help of Jack Nicholson.

The house of a Hollywood producer is always very important, but for Robert Evans, this was beyond anything.

He had so many memories there.

And it was a privilege to be able to interview him in that storied place, which is where he lived until his death in 2019.

Okay, so Mark, let's end this on a happy note.

We know that Evans and Coppola eventually made up, or supposedly made up, at the 25th anniversary of the film.

Let's hear Evans's recollection of that evening in San Francisco.

Five years ago, if it was the 25th anniversary of it,

it was in San Francisco.

And Francis walked in there.

He's king of San Francisco.

As he walked down the aisle, I took his sister Talya to the affair.

He came over to me, put his arms around me, kissed me, and said, We must have done something right.

Oh, that's good.

It's a good line.

Yeah, that's good.

You must have done something right and kissed me and then walked on.

And Evans was really proud of that.

It's my most important legacy in life.

This is The Godfather is

number one.

It broke a whole barrier of film.

It was opera.

It was new new filmmakers, great ideas, and fighting the organization.

And I loved fighting the organization.

What organization were you fighting?

Paramount.

The two of them.

Yeah, the other one was what?

The other the other one were the boys.

But they're all the same.

Wow.

Well, they're all everything is monetarily focused.

And I was looking to touch magic.

And magic to me lasts longer.

Why is it that Mozart is remembered far longer than Napoleon?

The world of art is remembered far longer than the world of greed.

Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli is a production of air mail and iHeart Media.

The podcast is based on the book of the same name written by our very own Mark Seale.

Our producer is Tina Mullen.

Research assistants by Jack Sullivan.

Jonathan Dressler was our development producer.

Our music supervisor is Randall Poster.

Our executive producers are meet, Nathan King, Mark Seal, Dylan Fagan, and Graydon Carter.

Special thanks to Bridget Arseneau and everyone at CDM Studios.

A comprehensive list of sources and acknowledgments can be found in Mark Seale's book, Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli, published by Gallery Books, an imprint of Simon and Schuster.

This is an iHeart podcast.