Sabina Nawaz: Why Pressure, Not Power, Shapes Effective Leadership

Authenticity is not singular, it's plural.

Often people will say, Well, you're going to coach me, but you know, I got to be me.

I've got to, or an executive who blows up and then says, Well, but that's me.

Don't you don't want me to be authentic.

Authenticity, when people use it for those reasons, is often an excuse for not wanting to grow or change.

Welcome to Mick Unplugged, the number one podcast for self-improvement, leadership, and relentless growth.

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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another exciting episode of Mick Unplugged.

And today,

we have someone who's coached leaders from Fortune 500 giants to daring startups, transforming mindsets and igniting leadership potential.

She's a powerhouse in executive strategy, and her insights challenge comfort zones and spark lasting change.

But if there's anything I tell you about our guest today, I want you to know she is the boss.

She's the visionary, the fearless, the impactful, Ms.

Sabina Nawaz.

Sabina, how are you doing today, dear?

I'm doing great, especially with that introduction, Miss.

Thank you so much.

Absolutely.

Sabina, I was telling you offline, I've been a huge fan of yours.

You know, we both are in the leadership space.

And I think now more than ever,

leadership, and I'm going to say emotional intelligence in leadership is something that I like bringing to the forefront.

And, you know, just from your perspective, Sabina, I know that you like to get people out of their comfort zone when it comes to leadership.

But what's the biggest lesson that you had for you getting outside of your comfort zone to get you to where you are today?

Well, there's so many examples of that, Mick.

And most of them happen when I'm actually quite sure of myself and then realize I know nothing.

I know I'm completely wrong.

So it's a big slap in the ego face, and it's great.

It cuts it down to size from time to time.

One of those was when I discovered that I was a lousy manager at Microsoft, because that's not how I started.

When I managed teams in software engineering, they often told me that I was the best boss ever.

I cared for them, I coached them.

Those were great years.

And then I was managing leadership development, executive development for the company.

Things were going great until the first day back from parental leave, I'm putting on lipstick for the first time.

And my assistant Laurie calls frantic, where are you?

Steve expects you in 30 minutes.

She's reading me the memo I'm supposed to discuss with Steve Bommer, the CEO of the company, as I hit warp speed on my way to work.

And that set the pace and tone with inbox overflowing, demands from high-level executives, infant at home, no sleep, no peace, no patience.

We've all been there from time to time.

And for me, I morphed from caring and nurturing as a boss to snippy and short.

I barked out orders.

I thought I was being efficient when I would leave all 10 fingers on the keyboard and look over my shoulder and indicate to people,

what is it?

I'm really busy.

You're less important than me.

Spit it out and get away.

And I, you know, the worst part of me thinking I was efficient, me thinking I was killing it, when actually I was crushing everybody else until a peer of mine told me that somebody was crying in their office because of my behavior.

So that was a moment.

of deep learning and transformation to realize as I went to apologize to this person and his eyes brimmed up that this is what I want.

I want to treat people with humanity.

And make this is why I wrote this book because I've walked in the shoes of people under tremendous amounts of pressure.

I know what that's like and we don't have to become that boss from hell.

Look, nobody wants to be a bad boss.

It's just that we

when pressure is untended, it's not power, but pressure that then corrupts our behaviors and shows shows up in that way that has a harmful effect on us and all the people around us.

I totally agree, Sabina.

And one of the things that I've been working on is trying to help people be good leaders.

A lot of times in society today, we hear great and exceptional.

Well, that's someone else's viewpoint.

You can be good.

And I think a lot of times we don't have enough good leadership because we haven't seen it, right?

Like when I asked my my kids who were in their 20s, tell me a good leader, aside from your dad, right?

Tell me a good leader that you know.

And they all, they say either someone who no longer lives, right?

Or a social media influencer.

And that really made me pause and say,

we've taken away just being good and the characteristics of good leadership.

And I know that for you, you have a lot of pillars of what good management and good leadership looks like.

What are some of the pillars that you can share with the viewers and listeners of what it means to just be a good leader or a good boss?

Well, Mick,

I have to first

nitpick some things first.

So,

yes, this notion of greatness, this sort of celebrity culture, putting someone on a pedestal and thinking they're perfect.

No wonder we cannot think of anybody other than dead people because we're expecting absolute perfection.

So there's that piece of great.

When I think about good and bad bosses, I actually don't think there is a pure good boss or pure bad boss.

They reside all within the same person.

Just like me, where I was great and good in one circumstance and I didn't change, but my circumstances changed.

And then I was horrible.

as a boss.

So they reside all inside of us.

And so then your question about what are the traits of

good leadership, of the good side, is our people who can, you know, I talk about the dual forces of pressure and power, that power doesn't corrupt, pressure corrupts.

And then, so pressure is this sort of silent corruptor, and then power colludes with it and becomes the great divider where nobody is going to tell you across that divide, look up to you and say, especially if you're acting snippy and short-tempered, hey, boss, you're being a jerk.

Who in their right mind is going to tell you that?

So then you keep doing these behaviors until it's too late.

So for me, the traits would be those who can

use power and pressure for good.

That is, they figure out ways to reduce that power gap.

And

a large part of that is through communication.

And we can go into details there.

or and or they manage their own pressures so that they're using pressure for good.

See, See, pressure doesn't have to define you.

It can refine you, just like pressure builds diamonds.

So

it's about looking at it from that perspective.

So I have several pressure pitfalls and what you can do in those situations.

I love it.

And you brought up communication just now, right?

Let's go a little bit deeper there.

Like what's how important is the communication aspect in your viewpoint?

It is the longest chapter in my book, if that's in any indication of how important it is.

It's certainly incredibly important.

And by communication, I mean so many different things.

First of all, as a manager, power has a distorted, broken volume knob effect.

Everything you're saying from up on high sounds louder, more dire, and more personally directed at the person.

So if a boss is wincing because they have a blister on their pinky toe, you're thinking, oh, there goes my bonus, or there goes my job.

I hope I had said goodbye to my office plants.

So there is this volume knob effect of communication.

And how do you make sure that you're not amplifying things beyond the natural amplification, the amplification that's going to happen because you're in a position of power?

So I often tell people, arrange your face before you go into a meeting.

If your resting face is really severe, like mine is, make sure that you're mindful of that make sure that your body language and your face and your facial expressions are in fidelity with the gravitas or the lightness of the message you're communicating so that's just one example of communication i love the fact that you talked about your resting face because i think a lot of times you know i work with power executives as well and they don't mean to and it's not purposeful.

But, you know, you could be in thought or you could be, you know

working on a project and you're so laser focused that when someone sees you they see a scowl on your face and then that becomes their their permanent indication of who you are yes what are some tips that leaders and managers can do to change their face disposition as i like to call

one is just being aware of it so i know i have a very severe resting face and i try to be aware of it in fact i have a micro habit and we can talk about what those are in a moment but one of the micro habits I

track is did I consciously put a smile on my face when I was in a resting state?

Now, it's not just about smiling and pretending to smile, but also another thing you can do is use numbers.

What I mean by that is, let's say you're really excited by something, but people are not quite believing it because your face is giving off a different message unintentionally.

You might say, hey, on a scale of one to 10, this is a 12.

You all have just killed it.

You've done a phenomenal job.

So now they know calibration-wise where they stand.

And similarly, when something is serious,

saying on a scale of one to 10, this is a four,

as opposed to a 10, because they're going to hear everything as a 10.

And by the way, when it's a four, maybe you want to check yourself and decide whether it's something you even need to share.

I love that.

Sabina, you know, I have this thought or this theory in 2025.

And as we talk about modern leadership, today leadership demands vulnerability from leaders.

And with you working with high power executives, how do you get them to embrace that as they're leading and managing their teams?

Well, luckily, most of them have come to embrace that over the years.

You know, I've been doing this for over 25 years now.

And 20 years ago, it would be so not okay to talk about anything to do with emotions, emotions, let alone deeper vulnerable stuff.

Now many people show up with vulnerable stories, with actually some skill at storytelling and

being as grounded and rooted in

all of themselves, not just the shiny stuff that's going to show up on Instagram.

For those who don't, and of course, everybody has stuff that they are wondering about.

Hey, is that going to be too much about me?

Are people going to judge me?

Is it going to expose me to more criticism?

The answer is yes.

People are always judging you.

And for every one person who judges you harshly, if you do it right, there'll be a thousand who judge you well.

So judgment can come in both forms.

And I had this one person I was working with who said, and this is one of the myths in my book, the myth being that business isn't personal.

It is very personal.

And someone was saying,

well, you know, I've got things are going to hell in a handbasket.

We don't know if we'll make it through this year.

We have an existential crisis.

And I've got to put on a face, talk about faces for my team.

You know, I've got to tell them everything's fine.

We'll come out of it stronger.

We're going to be resilient.

And I said, have you ever heard the term toxic positivity?

And,

you know, people are not stupid.

They understand what's going on.

And when you say that, the only thing you're doing is proving that you are the one who's disconnected and doesn't know what's going on in reality.

And when you try to reassure people a little too much, you start to worry them.

Like, oh, I wasn't afraid before, but maybe I should be afraid now.

Why are they trying so hard to reassure me?

So instead, he showed up at a meeting and he said,

I don't have answers.

That's how he started.

He said, I don't have answers.

And I'm scared.

My whole life,

I have been the A student who's gotten the grades, the gold stars, the promotions, the bonuses, and this position for knowing the answers, for being the smartest kid in the room.

And now,

it would be foolish for me to say I have the answers because nobody does.

The only way out of this is through a collective intelligence

and for us to

join forces so we can collaborate on finding the answer.

I may come without answers, but not without hope.

Now, that vulnerability, and he choked up as he was saying, I don't have answers.

That vulnerability won him followers for life, won him loyalists for life.

Because that's the real deal.

That was touching.

I felt that, Sabina.

I felt that.

I really felt that.

You know, a lot of leaders and managers today focus on performance metrics, but you emphasize, and this is, again, why I'm a huge fan of yours, you emphasize mindset shifts, right?

Can you talk about the importance or your belief in mindset?

as being the ultimate game changer for managers and leaders.

When you're in a management position and the higher up you go in these management positions, as I'm sure you see with your clients, Nick, the more pressure they have.

And the more pressure we have, the more we actually forget about mindset.

We forget about everything.

We're just trying to hunker down and survive.

And that in itself is a mindset.

It's a mindset of scarcity.

In the face of pressure, in the face of fear, we go, there's not enough.

It's what led to all that toilet paper hoarding at the beginning of the pandemic.

When there really wasn't a shortage of toilet paper,

what was that?

That was a mindset.

So, the mindset of abundance as opposed to scarcity, that I am enough, that we will have answers.

I just have to allow some space for those answers to emerge, and we'll get through it.

That kind of mindset.

Another mindset that is pervasive is this mindset of busy

and almost a badge of honor,

entry into a club.

If you're not busy, then you're yesterday's news, your used goods,

you're not needed.

I'm with the movers and shakers, and look how busy I am.

Yeah.

Right?

And that busy mindset also prevents us from looking out onto the horizon, from really focusing on the things that are most important.

We get caught up in being what someone jokingly calls CEO, chief email officer,

as opposed to really doing the work that's most important to do.

I totally agree.

I tell people that all the time.

Like I coach CEOs and executives on check your email twice a day.

Because

when if Sabina emails me at 10.30 and I respond at 10.33 and then Sabina emails me at 1130 and I respond at 1133, I'm training Sabina.

that if you email me, I'm going to stop what I'm doing and I'm going to allow you to interrupt my day.

Yes.

And so I teach all leaders two times a day.

Yep.

Exactly.

Because the essence of email was to be electronic mail.

I don't know if you remember this, Sabina, but the mailman or mail lady used to only come once a day.

I don't know why all of a sudden we have this craving to check our mail and to be run by our mail like a hundred times.

Yes.

Yes.

And you know, the one that's most common that I coach people on is that first thing in the morning email.

Because let's say there's an expectation that you do need to be responsive at nine o'clock, maybe even eight o'clock.

But who trained your manager to expect a response from you at 5 a.m.?

Right.

Yep.

All the conditioning.

You know, Sabina, I'm glad that I have you here because I want to ask a few things.

One, what are some blind spots or myths?

about leadership that you like to dispel to people.

Well, one of those was about no such thing as a purely good or purely bad boss.

They reside in all of us.

Another one is that authenticity is not singular, it's plural.

So we often people will say, well, you're going to coach me, but you know, I got to be me.

I've got to, or an executive who blows up and then says, well, but that's me.

You don't want me to be authentic.

Authenticity, when people use it for those reasons, is often an excuse for not wanting to grow or change.

Because if you think about it, as Herminia Ibarra says,

that if we were truly authentic to ourselves, we would still be our authentic five-year-old selves getting down on the floor and having a knockdown, drag-out, hissy fit every time we didn't get the candy.

So we have changed a lot.

What is authenticity?

How I'm showing up with you on this podcast is not how I would show up with my 19-year-old son.

And how I show up with my 19-year-old son is not how I would show up with my girlfriends.

And how I show up with my girlfriends is very different from what I do or say with the CEOs I coach.

So authenticity is dependent on the role you are performing.

And there are certain obligations to that role.

I think that what people truly want to mean when they say authenticity is values.

What do I value?

What's negotiable?

What's non-negotiable?

But even with values, they can be situational.

For example, for me, when I value being outspoken and speaking up for things.

But if I'm in a situation where my kids are in danger, I'm not going to stop and speak up.

I'm going to run with my kids because my value of providing safety to my kids is higher.

It subsumes the value of the desire to speak up.

It's fine for people to call me a coward or whatever they want, but I care about the safety of my kids way more than speaking up.

So authenticity is rarely singular.

We have multiple authentic selves.

I just learned something.

I learned some concepts right there.

That was awesome.

That was awesome.

You know, Sabina, also as we look at this at McUnplugged, I like like to talk about your because,

that thing that's deeper than your why, right?

If I were to say, Sabina, today in 2025, what's your because?

What's your purpose?

What's your mission for doing what you do?

I love the because instead of the why.

It also makes me think of that five whys exercise to get into that deeper, deeper understanding of things.

uh

for me it has something to it

look i'm an engineer by training and so i always go back to pragmatic roots and it has something to do with time and impact and that

in a leadership position you have an outsized impact on other people their satisfaction their work-life balance their paycheck what they're doing and how they're doing it and the and therefore the impact it has on the customers because the product the quality of the product Is it created with love or built through fear?

And so it's that because

is to ignite acts of leadership in everybody so that the impact they have on others is an outsized positive impact.

Sabina, you touch me every time.

Every time.

That was moving.

That was moving.

You know, I know one of the things that you talk about are the habits, right?

What are, from a leadership and manager perspective, what are habits that we need to be focused on?

What are habits we need to be intentional about?

And I'll kind of start because I tell leaders, if there's one habit that you can have today, it's presence.

And presence for your team is going to mean something different for all the individuals that you lead or that you manage.

And you got to understand how to be present for them.

So what are some habits that Sabina thinks are critically important for leaders and managers today?

Mick, this is why we're having, we both do the work we do, because I'm having this moment because mine is very close to what you're saying.

And the habit is to create a habit to shut up.

And as in not take up all the oxygen in the room, not be the first one to speak.

What if you were the third, fourth, or fifth person to speak instead of the first?

To take notes with your own brilliant ideas and see if someone else suggests it first and only bring out the ones that haven't been suggested by others.

So it's really to shut up more and sense more as a result.

And that's about being present.

So we are completely in sync on that, Mick.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Sabina, you know.

Over the next couple of years, we're going to have another wave.

I think, you know, I was reading a Sherm report.

Another 275,000 leaders managers are going to retire, right?

The last wave of boomers is there, which means that people are going to be in leadership positions for the first time, whether someone got elevated and now you're a leader or you got elevated to a leadership spot.

What are some things that new leaders and emerging leaders need to know about the workforce today?

One of the biggest things you need to know is that being promoted is often the riskiest time in your career when you're promoted to a management position.

This is because the strengths that have brought you to this point are going to be viewed very differently and much less charitably by the next that are craning up to look at you.

I'll give you a couple of examples.

Let's say that you're actually, Mick, what are a couple of your strengths?

I think I know my team better than they know them.

So I'm able to anticipate team needs.

I'm able to really connect with my team.

And then I'd say another strength that I have is transparency.

I think all leaders need to be transparent with vision.

So I'm always communicating vision and the why behind the why, the because with my teams.

Great.

Now, I'm sure this will not be the case with your team because you know them and they know you for a long time.

But if you were newly in a position and you're always communicating the why,

some people on that team could then go, oh, this guy's just talking all about the lofty why and not about the how.

How are we going to get all this done?

Yeah.

Or, wow, he told us we're in trouble this year and he didn't tell us how we're going to get out of it.

Are we going to get fired?

So, stories can get formed around that

without you changing anything, without with you, and 95% of the time, you ought to be transparent, you ought to do exactly what you're doing.

But that 5% of the time, for somebody who is dependent on your every eyebrow twitch, it's going to land differently.

Yeah, so do you know how it's going to land?

And what are you going to do to nuance that, to adjust that, to be more transparent about the why behind your why,

so to speak?

That's amazing, Sabine.

I could talk to you forever, like literally,

I could just talk to you forever.

So, you ready to do a hot five, Sabina?

Sure,

all right, five burning questions for Sabine and the why.

So, first

What was the coolest thing about working at Microsoft?

When I first started, the coolest thing about working for Microsoft was the free drinks.

Free water?

Free water?

Free Coke, Pepsi, Sprite, juice, whatever kind of non-alcoholic drink you name it.

There you go.

I love it.

I love it.

What was one of the most challenging things you've had to come to overcome in your career?

Self-doubt.

Oh,

okay.

We're going to come back to that one.

We're going to come back to that one.

All right.

So you have a 19-year-old.

And a 22-year-old.

And a 20.

Okay.

So it's summertime and we're going on a family vacation.

Where do you go to appease both your 22-year-old and your 19-year-old?

Where's the location?

It's a city with hiking nearby because the older one loves cities and public transit, and that's what his job is in.

And we all love being outdoors and hiking.

Okay.

All right.

Sabina's making dinner.

What's your go-to meal?

What's the meal that everyone raves about that you create?

Oh, it's my chickpea dish.

I have this,

it's just a recipe for my

that I came up with.

It was influenced by one of my roommates in college, and it's got onions onions and cumin and turmeric and

tomatoes and sugar and salt.

Hey, sugar and salt.

What could go wrong if you combine those two things?

I love that dish.

It's got sour cream and everybody raves about it.

In fact, many of my friends now have that as a staple in their homes.

Okay.

I dig it.

I dig it.

All right.

So then the last hot five for you, Steve Ballmer.

You know, from the the public eye, we saw him, obviously, with Microsoft.

We saw him as the energetic owner of the Clippers on the sidelines, always cheering and pumping.

Question.

Is that Steve Ballmer?

Is that really, I know the answer is yes, but that high energy, passionate Steve, is that Steve Ballmer?

Absolutely.

High energy, passion, and loyal.

Love it.

Love it.

Love it.

Love it.

So, Sabina, I'm going to end up with the, or two things.

One, you talked about overcoming self-doubt.

And I wanted to circle back to that because I know that there's someone listening or watching right now that is that.

They, they're, they're not sure.

They're unsure, right?

What's some advice you give to that person?

Yes, rent a voice.

Rent a voice that's not your own.

And if you check out my TEDx talk on YouTube, you'll, you'll, that's the whole story is about that.

How do you tune into positive voices?

So when your own voice is taken rent-free occupation inside your head that says,

you're going to fail.

I don't know why they're asking you to do things.

This is not going to be good enough.

It's going to be a disaster.

Go talk to somebody else and who has perhaps at that moment more faith in you than you have in yourself.

Find the voice.

Sabina,

that's a keynote in there somewhere.

There is one.

I have a keynote in there.

Yes.

Exactly.

It is one of my keynotes.

Exactly.

All right.

So, Sabina, let's wrap up.

Let's talk about the book a little bit.

Title of the book, where you want people to find the book, and why is the book important for everyone right now?

The book is called You're the Boss.

And that's why it's important for everybody.

It's become the manager you want to be and others need.

But really, every single one of the 16 tools in here is about making you the boss of your life.

Whether you're in a management position or not, how do you deal with pressure?

How do you navigate life in a way where you have a sense of agency, no matter what's coming at you?

And gosh, we have a lot coming at us.

They can find this book anywhere books are sold.

You can also,

if you don't buy the book, but I give away resources based on the book all the time on my sub stack called Pressure Free and Pressure Proof.

And you can follow me on Substack.

You can also sign up for it through my website, Sabinanawaz.com.

Sabinanawaz.com.

Where can people find and follow you on social?

You know, it's 2025, right?

My kids tell me that.

If you don't exist on social, no one knows you're around.

It's like, all right, fine, I'll have social there.

The best thing to do would be to follow me on LinkedIn, but I'm also on all the other platforms, Instagram, Blue Sky, etc.

Awesome, awesome, awesome.

Sabina.

Totally honored to have you on.

One of my favorite leaders of leaders is what I call you, Sabina Nawaz.

Sabina, I owe you.

You're a gem.

You're a treasure.

Thank you from the bottom of my soul.

Thank you, Mick.

It's an honor likewise back at you.

You got it.

And for all the viewers and listeners, remember, you're because is your superpower.

Go unleash it.

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Mick Unplugged.

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