Chris & Martha Thomas | The Defensive Line: The Thomas’s on Suicide Prevention and Community Initiatives

It's okay to show that you love and to show that you care.

You don't have to be tough all the time.

It's okay to call 988 on behalf of someone else.

And he credited us with saving the student's life.

You know, keep talking.

Keep talking.

Don't stop talking.

Let someone know how you're really, really feeling.

She didn't want to die.

She wanted to end the pain.

Welcome to Mick Unplugged.

where we ignite potential and and fuel purpose.

Get ready for raw insights, bold moves, and game-changing conversations.

Buckle up, here's Mick.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of Mick Unplugged.

And today is a true bucket list for me, and I mean that for my soul.

Today's guests are the co-founders of a powerful and purpose-driven nonprofit dedicated to saving lives by transforming the way we communicate about mental health, one of my true passions in life.

After experiencing personal tragedy, they turned their unimaginable grief into action by founding the Defensive Line, a movement aimed at preventing youth suicide, especially among young people of color.

Their commitment to sharing their story and educating others has created a ripple effect, helping to reduce stigma and foster open, honest conversations about mental health, something that's truly needed in 2024 and beyond.

Please join me in welcoming the compassionate, the resilient, the powerful, powerful, the transforming

Mr.

and Mrs.

Martha and Chris Thomas.

Thank you so much.

Martha and Chris and Chris, you know, I had to go ladies first, right?

Like,

yes, absolutely.

Martha and Chris, I'm a huge fan of who you are personally, but more importantly, and I mean this from my soul, and this isn't scripted or anything like that.

I'm a big proponent of mental health.

At a young age, I experienced or saw my mom go through emotional,

financial, physical abuse.

And a lot of people don't realize that mental health is more than the actual person that's experiencing it.

It's also for the people that care and are surrounded.

They go through those struggles as well, too.

And so, following you both for a while, I just wanted to thank you for

really making this a thing and having this conversation.

I get a little emotional because I go back to that 10-year-old me, but

I just want to thank you both for opening the doors to having these conversations, especially for people that look like me, where it's kind of taboo to talk about, or it's a perceived weakness to talk about struggle.

So I just wanted to say thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mick.

That's fantastic.

Wow.

That's and it's so true.

It impacts so many people.

And

we often, before we lost Ella, we didn't realize how significant it was across the whole community, but in particular, the community of color

and why it's important to talk about it, because you can't fix something if you don't talk about it, if you put your head in the sand.

And so it's important that we talk about, you know, physical health, mental health, emotional health, spiritual health.

It's what we call whole health.

It's really important because then we can talk about, you know, how do you improve it?

How do you make sure you're more resilient?

How do you make sure you check on your friend or your brother or your sister or your mother or your father?

So making these normal conversations is what we're all about because we don't want anybody to join the

unfortunate club that we're a part of, you know, Suicide Law Survivor.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, and I lost my high school best friend, I lost to suicide years after high school.

And

one of the biggest regrets that I have to this day is,

did I reach out enough?

Could I have been

a phone call, a text message, a in-person conversation that could have sparked some type of change?

And I think about that a lot.

And so, you know, one of the questions I want to ask you, because it was something that I struggled with initially, were what were the initial steps that you took to turn tragedy into impactful work?

You know, it took a while, right?

So

we had,

honestly,

one of Ella's boyfriends

really pushed me to do the overnight walk with the American Foundation of Suicide Prevention.

It was in Dallas, and he said, I told him I wasn't ready.

It was about six months after Ella died.

Said, I'm not ready, Landis.

You know, I'm just not there yet.

And he said,

I'm going to keep asking you until it happens.

And the week before, I said, okay, Landis, I'll do it with you.

I'll do it with you.

And then Solomon said he'd do it.

And then, you know, Chris.

came with us and

we walked 18 miles in the heat of of Dallas.

It was actually in Dallas that year.

So,

but that was this kind of pivotal point where

if we're living, if we're living, we have to really live and do something because we can take steps, literal steps that can change what someone else was doing.

And along the way on this walk,

people would come up to and talk about their loss and how they had

were doing and their concerns over how we were doing and as a son, as a mother, as a father.

And it was

life-changing.

You know,

it was powerful.

And there were other people who were talking about it who weren't ashamed.

And there was so much shame with it at first that

we didn't,

you know, we you'd see, you know, if we said Ella's name, people would come put their head down.

This is our daughter.

We're never going to stop talking about her.

So it really was empowering.

That's awesome.

That's awesome.

You know, you talk about, you know, taking those first steps and just communicating and talking, right?

And I know we talked offline about just the power of connecting and connection.

Like, how has that

helped not only the healing process, but also just the awareness in general?

You know,

one, having people reach out, but reaching out to others and then listening to them, not reaching out with the intent of having something to say, but reaching out with the intent of listening to who they are, to what they're going through, to how they're feeling.

You know, acknowledge those feelings as their feelings, not as who they are.

You know, like,

I am not a sad woman.

I have feelings of sadness,

you know, and just recognizing

that in other people, but really that intention of reaching out to listen, to not expect to hear something, but to hear what someone else has to say.

Yeah.

The other power of connectivity, particularly amongst youth, is the more we encourage people to check in on each other, it can help with this situation.

Because, like, right now, you know, one out of four high school students have seriously thought about taking their life.

And if their LGBTQ, one out of four have attempted.

So, the more we talk to each other, the more we can check and see, how are you doing?

How are you really doing today?

And then they can listen compassionately, as Martha mentioned, and then just make sure we're talking to them, staying in contact with them.

And also, as we talk more about this, we educate people on the fact that if you see somebody in trouble trouble and you ask them, Are you thinking about suicide?

That is a very positive and powerful move.

It's not going to cause them to want to die by suicide.

It's going to actually,

every study says that it does the opposite.

It helps that person who may be, you know, who's at risk or may be suicidal to say, hey, this person is seriously concerned about me.

Let me open up and talk to them about it.

So that's the other piece and power of connectivity is that it drives these powerful, transformative conversations about how people are doing and where they're at at that moment.

And then,

as a listener, you can just listen and not try to solve the problem.

Just talk to the person and just be where they are and keep them safe for that moment.

Yeah.

And I know that you both have partnered with a lot of organizations, schools, and communities and the NFL.

What impact are you seeing with these collaborations now?

We spoke at a university

and the next week got an email from their director of counseling who said, we had a student who was suicidal because he heard you and because his coach heard you.

Everyone knew what to do

and everyone knew to take it seriously.

And he credited us with saving the student's life.

That to me was everything.

On days days where I feel like I don't want to do this, I think about that and I'm

moving on.

And to your point, Mick, we've had some great collaborative partners, whether it's AFSP, you know, Dak Prescott's Faith Fight Finish, and like Dak and his group have helped us do these D-lines or suicide prevention workshops here in Dallas.

We do them in Clark County, we've done that at universities like Stanford and

University of Virginia.

And when we do these workshops, we're seeing coaches and teachers and leaders of young people being able to recognize the signs.

We've seen like a 48% increase in teachers and coaches being able to recognize the signs.

People are 94% more confident to be able to have those open conversations.

And at the beginning of each workshop, we give people a blank action plan, and we ask them to fill in D for donor your gut, L for listen for the sign, I for interact.

for the person who's a concern, and name the concern, E, evidence the concern, S, create a safe, supportive environment.

And at the end of that workshop, 98% of the people walk away with an action plan.

And this is something that Martha developed was a brilliant move because as a teacher, she noticed there was a need for us to not just talk about how to save people, but we got all these drills, tonato drill,

a shooter drill, everything else, but we don't have a mental health action drill, a action plan.

So with her leadership, we put this action plan together.

And now people out of these workshops walk away with a tangible tool they can use day one, day 1,000, day 10,000, because it has a lifelong approach.

And I love that because it's something that I'm a big proponent of as well, which is the action, right?

Like you can talk, talk, talk, but after a while, ears start to deafen on talk, right?

Like

it's who we are as people, right?

Like

I'm sure.

Chris, you can look me in the eye.

You don't have to just blink three times.

Sometimes Martha's talking and you're nodding your head.

My wife's over there, too.

So I get it.

I'm going to blink as well.

But it's the action that matters.

And it's not even the action because I know, again, following you all what I do, you actually give roadmaps as well, too.

So it's like, it's not unrealistic things that people can do.

It's like, hey, do this.

Here's a place you can reach out to.

And then this is your next step.

And that's what I love.

And I'd love to give the listeners and viewers just some insight into that because I think that's the most powerful thing.

Yes.

So one thing we do like when we go to schools is

we find out, well, wherever we go, we find out what local resources are.

We have spoken and done our workshop at universities where,

you know, the people at the university did not know what the crisis, that they actually had their own crisis 24 hours, you know, line that was available to the students and the staff at the university.

So connecting people with the resources they have.

We were just at a high school in Dallas and

we always have all the Dallas high schools have a licensed therapist on staff for not only the students but the staff.

So we always involve them in the workshop.

And there's so many people who say, I didn't know who that person was.

I didn't even know, you know, they were here or that I could reach out to them.

So, really putting people in touch with the local resources.

You know, sometimes a school will send resources.

I'll check them, you know, like, are they still,

oh no, that number's not even active anymore.

And they're putting it out as a resource.

So it's

being intentional about what's out there.

Also, you know, really making sure people know it's okay to call 988 on behalf of someone else.

You don't have to be in the crisis.

Or, you know, if you're a parent and a child and you know your child is struggling, sit down with them and call 988 or text 988 or 741741

with them.

so that they know that this is a resource that is

viable, that's easy, that's there for them when they're having a bad day.

They don't have to be on the verge of suicide to use those numbers.

And everyone needs to know that.

And the other great thing Martha does is she does like an interactive role play during the I, which is interact.

She talks to them, talks to

the participants about that we're going to practice saying, are you thinking about just suicide?

And really practicing it with the people.

We don't ask people to give an answer back, but it's very uncomfortable making that, asking that question.

But that role play helps people understand.

It sort of helps them get the guard down.

It helps them understand that it's okay to ask that question.

And not only okay,

it's imperative that they ask that question.

So that's an excellent piece that she put into our workshop because we want people to actually do the work.

So that's why we do role plays and talk to the leaders at that time.

And I think that's powerful because that's honestly, and until I got to follow you both, that's something I would have felt like, oh, you shouldn't ask that question, right?

Like, you need to tiptoe around and figure out angles, but you're right.

Yeah, be direct because, again, that's who we are as humans, right?

Like, we need that.

I believe iron sharpens iron, but I also believe friction can fight friction.

And you need, you don't need happiness all the time, or I shouldn't say happiness.

You don't need ease and polish.

You need that rub to break through.

And so I love that.

I love that.

Yeah, you're absolutely right.

And

well, especially with young people, when their emotions

are kind of, can be all over the place.

I taught middle school for years.

I mean, she's going to heaven.

The range of emotions I saw in my students every day was 12-year-olds going through puberty are,

you know, special.

special gifts.

But, you know, making sure that we are asking, you know, like I notice that you're

falling asleep in class and you weren't doing that before.

Is there something going on?

You know, and it may be, you know, I asked one student one time and he looked at me and he goes, yeah, my parents bought me a computer for Christmas and they put it right by my bed.

So I'm up gaming all night long.

And it was, you know, I was able to understand that, you know, but to ask those questions, when you see a change in behavior

in anyone, but especially teens,

young people, it's really important to ask.

Yeah, that's one of the other things that we incorporated with our partner, AFSP.

We help people understand that there's never only one reason why someone dies by suicide.

And we share with them the talk, mood, behavior,

change of behaviors that exist when somebody who may be in crisis.

And there are like eight to ten different characteristics, each of those talk mood behaviors.

So we walk through that.

And then the other thing we walk through is Martha shares the importance of being intentional about language.

We try to help educate people.

You don't say commit suicide.

You say someone dies by suicide.

And the reason why that's important is people don't commit cancer.

They don't commit kidney disease.

They die by kidney disease.

And mental people, 80 to 90% of people die by suicide have a mental health condition.

So they're dying by a mental health condition.

They're not committing a crime.

It's not taboo.

They're dying by suicide.

And then we also go through some other myths, like it only takes an expert to help somebody who may be dying by suicide.

anybody can help someone who's died by suicide or that once someone has made a plan to die by suicide you can't talk them out of it that's that's not true at all so we go through some of the myths that exist on that as well so that's and to your point i saw you were like you you you looked surprised when you or made a comment about thought, about the piece about commit versus die by suicide.

That's 99% of the people, they don't realize that's an important piece, important change.

It adds stigma to talking, you know, that you're committing this, right?

So.

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

You know,

I want to give some tips and

insight to three different people.

And you are the resource for this.

So

for the person

who cares about someone or people,

but you don't know the signs that someone's struggling with mental health, what are some of the signs that people can look for when they just think someone's appearing to be normal or happy or in a good space?

What are some signs that people can look for that aren't always just known?

So, one, like I already mentioned,

to me is the change in behavior.

And it might be a positive change.

Like, so just because someone isn't exhibiting what we might think is kind of stereotypical mental health condition,

for instance, you know,

if it's a young person, instead of being quiet, they may be louder.

You know, like any change in behavior, it might mean someone's not sleeping or um they've gone from being kind of sad to extremely happy you know just that kind of change that

that that to me is the biggest thing to look for yeah absolutely and a lot of times people sometimes Mark Martha mentioned the change of behavior, sometimes they become withdrawn, they become more

isolated.

And when people are isolated and they're worse and they feel like they're a burden to people that's when that sort of triggers even more unfortunate issues on suicide ideation so to Martha's point those talk move behavior you know people sometimes unfortunately give away prized possessions or they sleep more they sleep less or eat more eat less so those those are the key ones but the giving away prized possessions is typically a huge huge sign and then the other thing I'd be remiss if I didn't say AFSP has some great videos on their website about how to recognize signs, talk, you know, how to deal with people who may be having burdensome issues and things like that.

And that's where we get a lot of our resources as well.

Okay, that's good.

And I'll make sure that I give links to AFSP in

the show notes and everything that I post out socially as well.

And so now, the second person that I want to give tips and insights to

are the family members that are seeing

these signs.

How do you approach that person?

Because you've already given me some really good nuggets here, right?

Like, one, that's the question.

I think, obviously, that's the first tip.

But how do you give people the courage to actually do that?

Because for some people, again, it might not be a natural thing and they need that motivation to do that.

So, how do we help that person that's recognizing these signs have those conversations or provide help?

I think one thing that's really important is to make mental health conversations in our families.

Just like, you know, like I always say to parents, if your child came home and had sprained their ankle, you would ask them about it at school.

You know, you would ask them about it.

If there was a broken arm, you would ask them, How's it feeling every day?

You take them to the doctor.

We need to be able to do the same with

our,

you know, mental health.

So, you know, one good question

to ask is: how did that make you feel?

Not just a, how are you doing today?

It's fine.

But once they get to that, continuing that conversation, asking deeper questions, and not quite letting it off the hook.

I don't know if you've ever seen the feelings wheel,

but you know, it's you've got the core feelings, and then even, oh, okay, you're sad.

Which one of these emotions under sadness

were you really feeling?

Oh, you were frustrated?

You know, like it just,

how did you become frustrated?

Or what about that made you become frustrated?

So, our mental health conversations are something that we're having every day,

not just when we're in crisis.

Yes, yes.

That's amazing.

Absolutely.

That's funny.

Martha, when we did this at UNLV in Vegas,

the dean of School of Public Public Health really picked that up.

And he tells us about how every day he has these regular mental health, they're not even called mental health conversations, they're just called normal conversations now because he's always asking his kids about it.

And it becomes a normal routine.

It's not the exception.

It just becomes the, it's like breathing air.

It's a part of their family life now.

And that's what we got to get to, like Martha said.

That's awesome.

That's awesome.

And so now the third person that I want to give tips to,

and and

I'm just going to say it, the listener or viewer right now

that's going through this,

and they are

listening and it's like,

I don't want to continue.

It's time to give up.

Let's talk to that person.

I would say,

first of all,

know who your people are.

Have a few people that are your safe people.

And call 988,

text 988

for resources.

And, you know, keep talking.

Keep talking.

Don't stop talking.

Let someone know how you're really, really feeling.

Yeah, and I would also say that help them understand they're not alone.

This is not abnormal for people to feel hopeless or alone or irritated.

You know, the key piece is staying here and working through it with it, your loved ones, the people that you care about, whether it's a friend member, a family member, and realizing that there is help out there to get you through this.

You don't need to take a permanent, you know, action to a temporary problem.

And we can work together on it.

And I always say that if Ella knew the pain that we went through, she would never, I mean, she was in so much pain that she really

She didn't want to die.

She wanted to end the pain.

But if she knew

the sorrow and the hurt that we've gone through,

I don't think she would have done it.

So understand that people love you.

We need you here.

That's awesome.

That's awesome.

And that's so powerful, too, because you're right.

I mean, even the highest of highs

don't stay there, right?

Like we all go through the ebbs and flows.

And you hit on exactly what I talk to people about, Chris.

It's just love.

You are loved, even when you don't realize it.

And sometimes, you know, I'll be honest, and this was some things that, you know, we had to do in our family, right?

Like, you've got to realize that everyone in your circle isn't there from a loving space.

And sometimes your circle has to change because you can't see the love that you have because you have a big roadblock in front of you or a big cloud surrounding you.

But somewhere outside of that cloud, somewhere on the other end of that roadblock, there is love.

And so you've got to be able to remove those obstacles.

And a lot of times there are people or things that you think are the driver of happiness and success.

And that's really not it.

Right.

And Nick, I would add, there's probably a fourth category of people listening to your show right now.

And I'll be very specific.

There are people of color, like you and I, that don't think that black people die by suicide.

And they need to realize that, unfortunately, this is happening to our population.

And unfortunately, black people are dying at a higher rate of suicide than than any other ethnic group across the country.

And that's one reason why we want to go out and talk to people to let them know that this impacts everybody.

But right now, in particular,

students of color.

And we got to not keep our head in the sand.

We got to talk about it.

We've got to realize that we are impacted by this as well.

And we got to understand there are resources out there.

And that's one reason why Martha and I talk to boys and girls clubs.

We want to go to the like the Jack and Jose and YMCAs of the world.

The reason why we want to even get to church is because clergy can also talk about the importance of whole health.

So it's not just,

this impacts everybody.

And I want folks to understand there's help out there

between the defensive line, between other great organizations to help recognize the signs and give them the resources that you need.

No, you're exactly right.

I mean, in our community, Chris, this big stigma, right?

Like, especially for men, you've got to be tough.

The buck has to stop with you.

And, you know, you can't be vulnerable.

And that's the furthest thing thing from the truth because there are, and it's not a weakness to talk and rally.

I mean, you know,

I'm a spiritual religious person.

My mom is a minister now, right?

Go to church on Sunday, everybody's crying.

And if you're not crying, you didn't have the right service.

It's okay to be emotional.

It's okay.

It's okay to show that you love and to show that you care.

You don't have to be tough

all the time.

It's not a good thing to be tough.

Like, that's not a thing.

What's good is to be a good human being.

What's good is to

build community,

to inspire, and motivate and move others.

And to me, that's what being good is about.

Absolutely.

Amen.

Amen.

And so I also want to talk about how people can get involved, right?

So you've got your nonprofit, your community.

How can we support

your community?

So, you know, one thing is

following us on our social media platforms, the defensive line.

And

one, because we'll put out things now and again for people to support.

I know, you know, one thing we have coming up,

we do party for a purpose around the

Super Bowl.

You know, so giving people options on ways to support.

In January, it's

Ella's Called Home.

And we,

the three of us, have just gone out and supplied

snack packs to homeless people.

But this year, we're asking people to go out and do that because mental illness among homeless is so huge.

And to provide a little bit of extra love, just a little bit, you know, and not just hand someone something and turn and walk away, but look them in the eye and let them know that you care.

Because it's so easy to just keep walking with your head down.

You know, so there are ways throughout,

but also really connecting.

The biggest thing we can do for our organization, for

all of our people, is connect with those around us.

Yeah.

And the other thing I'll share is: right now, we've got a solid auction going on.

If you go to our socials, you'll see it.

And the reason why we're raising that money is because when we do these workshops in high schools, we want to provide it to the high schools for free, but we need funding to do that so that we can give it to the schools for free.

So, as your listeners want us to come into their school district, please reach out because that's where we can make a difference talking to teachers and coaches and counselors.

The other thing is, we do this, of course, we do our presentations in our Dealiance workshop at corporations we do it at universities so if you want us to do it there we can we can make things happen we do panels at corporations universities and schools and Martha has developed an excellent parent university so that we can have conversations with parents that could be done live time and or virtual and that helps educate parents particularly parents who may not understand a lot about mental health and suicide prevention.

So

our goal is to grow and expand by doing those things in universities, schools, and corporations.

And if they reach out to us

through Chris at the defensiveline.org or Martha at the defensive line.org, we can then connect to the right organizations and set it up so that we can start to continue to educate people and save lives.

I'm going to do my part.

And

I keep getting emotional every time I talk to you guys, but you're moving me.

I want to set up some type of link

that the listeners and viewers of Mick Unplugged,

Mick Unplugged is going to match any donation

or option through the end of this year.

Through the end of this year.

Because I'm a huge mental health advocate.

I do a lot of speaking across the country.

And one of my keynotes is on mental health.

And I'm a huge advocate.

So Mick Unplugged will match donations through whatever link.

We'll set that up.

We'll make sure that it's here and live.

Thank you.

For the listeners, challenge me.

Challenge me.

I'm matching you.

Challenge me.

Challenge me.

That's powerful.

Thank you.

I'm ultra-competitive.

So, the listeners and viewers, challenge me because I'm matching.

And I said it, and we'll have every conversation.

That is, I want to support you both because it's needed.

Thank you.

It's needed.

Thank you very much.

Anything else that we can do?

Anything that we can follow?

Like what's coming up for you both personally?

I know, you know, I'm a huge fan of what Rose is doing at Players for Good.

And anytime I can support her, I'm going to.

Anytime I can support the organization, I'm going to.

So what's coming up for you both on a personal level or business level?

Well, we have football season, Monday night football about to start.

So always cheering our son on with the Jets.

And, you know, that is something that

has brought us so much joy

to be able to watch him play and do what he loves.

So,

that's really cool.

We have a busy September Suicide Prevention Month.

We have a few keynotes,

going to a few universities

during the week and going to the games on the weekend.

So,

yeah, I would just say one of the things that we're looking forward to doing is we've been selected by the Clinton Global Initiative to be a commitment action partner.

And why that's important to us, it allows us to increase scale with our training to help to spread it so we can also add more lived experience storytellers, as well as find a way to put it in English into Spanish and hire 2,000 trainers so that we can get this training across the country.

I mentioned the results that we're seeing when we do the suicide prevention training, but right now it's Martha and I doing it by ourselves.

So

with their support, we're going to be able to scale this and get it across North America.

And so there are details of that, how they can help, how people can help out on that on our website.

But that's a huge piece for us right now because we really want to get this into as many schools, universities as possible.

But it also obviously takes money and funding to do that.

And the Clinton Global Initiative has given us this platform to do it.

So we really appreciate it and we'll send you the link on that when we if you want to put in the show notes as well but that's a big part for us right now wholeheartedly we'll have the show notes full of all ways to help because like i said this this space

is underserved yes and i'm i'm going to do my part my listeners and viewers will do their part to make sure that we do our part

in making awareness around this for sure.

That's awesome.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

You both are awesome

um anytime and i mean this from my soul and this is being recorded i'm not even editing this out anytime

that you need me

don't ask you just tell me thank you thank you anytime you want to be back on the show don't ask you just tell me yeah one thing i want to do i want to i want to come to one of your keynotes brother that's what so you got to let us know when you're speaking so we can come listen to you i i'm sure it's powerful we love to we love to we love attending conferences um and learning so please let us know when you're speaking, please.

I've got one better for you.

I'm going to call you.

I've got something that I need from you.

So

I've got you.

Don't worry about that.

Thank you very much.

I've got you covered.

Well, ladies and gentlemen, we've been honored and blessed with Martha and Chris Thomas.

I love you both genuinely.

I love you dearly.

And I'm going to do my part to stand beside you in

this awareness.

Thank you very much.

God bless you, brother.

Thank you.

You got it.

And for all the viewers and listeners, remember: you're because is your superpower.

Go unleash you.

Thank you for tuning in to Make Unplugged.

Keep pushing your limits, embracing your purpose, and chasing greatness.

Until next time, stay unstoppable.