Revealing the Secret to Creative Success with Tim Gunn

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Speaker 1 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another exciting episode of Mick Unplugged. And today I have someone who I call the GOAT.

Speaker 1 He is the style guru who turned critique into compassion. The mentor who made Made It Work a mantra for excellence.

Speaker 2 He's inspired millions with his authenticity, but most importantly, his class. Please welcome the refined, the fearless, the iconic, Tim Gunn.

Speaker 2 Tim, how are you?

Speaker 2 Nick, I've never had such a lovely introduction. Thank you so much.
You're very, very generous.

Speaker 1 I'm generous, but you've had these introductions before, Tim.

Speaker 2 You're not going to fool me. Not like this.

Speaker 1 You could say it, but you can't fool me. Tim, you are an icon, and I truly mean that.

Speaker 1 What you've done, the change in the eyes that you've allowed to come into your industry and into the world speaks volumes for the class, the character that you have.

Speaker 1 I tell people all the time, it's easy to stand on the shoulders of giants. It's hard to be the shoulder that people stand on.
And you are that shoulder.

Speaker 2 So thank you, sir. Well, thank you.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. So, Tim, I'd love to know

Speaker 2 what is your because,

Speaker 1 right? Like when people ask, what's your why? It's pretty easy. And then I say, well, Tim, why are they your why? And you usually start with, because something.

Speaker 2 That's true.

Speaker 1 So I'd love to know for you, like for the world, what's your because? Why do you keep doing the things that you do?

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 I have to say what guides me is doing the right thing

Speaker 2 and doing what's right for

Speaker 2 with whom you're engaging and having empathy and compassion and

Speaker 2 making no assumptions. It was my approach to teaching for 32 years.
I ask a lot of questions.

Speaker 2 I pummel my students with questions as I do with the Designers and Project Runway because you need to have a context before you can even begin to respond.

Speaker 2 And also, you need to know what that individual's goals are, or if it's a group, what the group's goals are. And are they meeting those goals? And how can one help them do that?

Speaker 2 Absolutely.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. And Tim, one of the reasons that I admire you the way that I do,

Speaker 1 you became a household name in an unapologetically kind of cutthroat industry.

Speaker 2 Yes, I agree.

Speaker 1 How did you develop the courage to lead with empathy rather than ego when

Speaker 1 most of the people out there in your industry, it's ego-driven, but you're quite the opposite.

Speaker 2 It's an industry filled with narcissists. It's incomprehensible in some ways.
Well,

Speaker 2 for one thing, I was very well-grounded before Project Runway. I had been at Parsons for, oh, God,

Speaker 2 18 years. Wow.
And I learned a lot through the process of teaching, and it was a school of hard knocks for me. You learn quickly what your students respond positively to.
and what they don't.

Speaker 2 And if they perceive you to be inauthentic, insincere, or just plain mean-spirited,

Speaker 2 they shut you out. And that means no one moves forward.
I can't help them. They don't want me.
So I learned quickly: you have to

Speaker 2 think carefully about how the other individual or as or group, but in this case, individual, will respond to what you're saying. So I try to rehearse things in my head.

Speaker 2 and think if I were on this receiving end of these words and this intonation, how would I respond?

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I have to say too,

Speaker 2 I try to avoid as much as possible telling people what to do. I mean, I will say with my students, I could on Project Runway.
I really wasn't supposed to. So for me, to ask enough questions

Speaker 2 in a way that will get that individual to see what I'm seeing is

Speaker 2 a great thrill to experience. And then it's up to them what they do.
People ask me all the time: do you feel guilty when a Project Runway designer goes home? No,

Speaker 2 just as I don't take any credit for their success when they win.

Speaker 2 It's their work, it's their decision making.

Speaker 2 And I firmly believe in that. I will say this, though, about teaching versus being a teacher versus being a mentor.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I learned this

Speaker 2 the big difference during season one, episode one of project runway

Speaker 2 the designers were making their work and one of the design designers came to me and said i'm having trouble threading the bobbin

Speaker 2 so

Speaker 2 i said well let me help and i'm sitting behind the sewing machine i'm threading the bobbin and our executive producer jane lipsitz is knocking on the door of the sewing room and tim can i see you can you step outside for a minute so i did and she said what are you doing I said, what do you mean?

Speaker 2 What am I doing? I'm threading a bobbin. She said, listen, if you thread the bobbin for this designer, you have to thread the bobbin for every designer for every episode.

Speaker 2 She said, it's a fairness issue. And I said, I'm out of here.

Speaker 2 I'm not going to be hogtied to that particular set of circumstances. But with my students in a classroom, Nick, I can say to them,

Speaker 2 no, you're not going to use three-ply cashmere. This This is a prototype that you're making.
Use heavy-duty muslin or whatever.

Speaker 2 But on Project Runway, it was very important to keep an even playing field and to keep fairness in mind about all things.

Speaker 2 And I have to say, too,

Speaker 2 in a classroom situation, fairness is an issue as well. You want to give people equal time and a critique.
And

Speaker 2 you also

Speaker 2 want to

Speaker 2 nurture the shrinking violets, the people who really are shy and reticent to contribute, and make them feel comfortable. And when I had lecture classes, and I did,

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 and I'll tell you, I abhor lecturing. I don't even like the word because it sounds so pedantic.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 But I would never have a class with more than 25 or 30 students. And I would have us arrange our desks in a circle so everyone has the same line of access to everyone everyone else.

Speaker 2 And there isn't a hierarchy. Who's in the front of the class, who's in the back of the class? And it really worked and it made people feel more comfortable.
I mean,

Speaker 2 the very shy, reticent ones had to get over it because they wanted to recede into the background. And the

Speaker 2 vocal loudmouse learned that they had to play nicely with others. And it really helped tremendously.

Speaker 2 So whenever I see a classroom with lines of desks and rows, I think, oh, this is a potential abomination here.

Speaker 1 Tim, I've always wanted to ask you this. Again, been a huge fan of you for a long time.
And for the outsiders like myself, right, fashion changes fast.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 You teach, however, that people should find their truth, right? It's like, because personal style is timeless.

Speaker 1 So how do we balance that with personal style that should be timeless, but the fashion industry that changes like every two days?

Speaker 2 Oh, I know.

Speaker 2 It's a great frustration, but one that I've come to terms with and I accept.

Speaker 2 I tell people all the time, as you're saying, find out who you are, how you like to dress, how you look your best is what's so very important.

Speaker 2 Because when we look our best, we navigate the world with great confidence.

Speaker 2 And when we don't feel confident,

Speaker 2 it's demonstrated through our body language, how we interact with people. So I tell people all the time, don't chase trends.
If there's something that's trending in fashion that you really respond to,

Speaker 2 fine, embrace it. But otherwise, just turn the other cheek, ignore it.
And I say this all the time.

Speaker 2 And when I've been on shows like Good Morning America, for instance, and Robin Roberts wants to know, what should I go out and buy? And I say, I don't know that you should go out and buy anything.

Speaker 2 In fact, you should probably do a closet inventory and analyze what it is that you wear all the time, what you're not wearing.

Speaker 2 You'll probably find items that have price tags on them and ask yourself why.

Speaker 2 I mean, for instance,

Speaker 2 as men, you know, now baggy clothes are in, baggy jeans, baggy tops. And I don't think we look our best.
I think we look our best when our clothes fit us.

Speaker 2 I'm not talking about pants that fit like a legging, but clothes that follow our net our our silhouette and acknowledge our proportions. So

Speaker 2 I'm very critical of where things are right now with menswear. And don't even get me started on women's wear.
I don't understand most of what's happening.

Speaker 2 And speaking of women's wear in these award shows, the Venice Film Festival and various other things, what's with this

Speaker 2 pantsless look? What is this? It's vulgar.

Speaker 2 It's repugnant. Who wants to see that much stuff?

Speaker 2 Not me.

Speaker 2 No, nor I. I can go on a tirade about these things.

Speaker 2 You know,

Speaker 2 I always make the distinction between what you're saying about fashion, a distinction between fashion and clothes.

Speaker 2 Fashion, by definition, needs to change. And it changes because fashion is really, like most art, a barometric gauge of our society and culture.

Speaker 2 It has to do with what headlines are people reading, what websites are they're visiting, the podcasts that they're listening to, the political climate, God help us, and

Speaker 2 really everything

Speaker 2 that is part of our society and culture. And clothing doesn't have to change.

Speaker 2 And I say this with the greatest respect because I own a lot of their product. I'm always citing the LL Bean catalog.
It's basically unchanged for decades.

Speaker 2 And they're great clothes, but they're clothes, they're not fashion. And I say that very respectfully.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, Tim, you kind of just hurt my feelings.

Speaker 2 I have to say,

Speaker 2 tell me.

Speaker 1 So in the 90s, early 2000s, you know,

Speaker 1 everybody was going back into the skinny jean thing, right? Like when I was in high school, it was baggy. And I understood that was school.

Speaker 2 That wasn't my professional book.

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Speaker 1 I've been losing weight weight so I could get into what I thought was the fashion trend of skinny, like extra, extra medium European cut slacks and suits. And now you're telling me that baggy is in.

Speaker 1 I don't know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 Oh, no, no, no, no. That's why I'm saying ignore the trends.

Speaker 2 The fashion industry is saying you need to wear these baggy clothes. Well, also,

Speaker 2 it's a conspiracy, co-conspiracy, conspiracy between fashion and retail. They want us to buy stuff.
And if we have it, and I love the fit of my clothes. I'm not buying the baggy stuff.

Speaker 2 I'm wearing what I wear because I also know I look my best. And I'm always saying about clothes with a lot of volume: the more volume your clothes have, the more volume you appear to have.

Speaker 2 It doesn't look as though, oh, there's a really skinny person in there. We really don't know the size and shape of the person in there.
We just know that the clothes are really big.

Speaker 2 Absolutely. No, go with your European tailoring, Mick.
Please.

Speaker 1 I feel better now.

Speaker 2 I feel better. No, you should.
No, honestly,

Speaker 2 I'm sticking to my wardrobe. I'm not going out and buying this stuff.
And also,

Speaker 2 I have a small New York apartment. There's only so much room for things.

Speaker 2 There you go. There you go.

Speaker 1 You know, Tim, as someone who's taught thousands, you've been talking about teaching a lot.

Speaker 1 What's one common mental block that creatives and early slash entry-level designers have. And then more importantly, how do you help them push through that?

Speaker 2 Well, in my experience, the one common denominator to not achieving your goals and potentially even failing is it's one thing. It's stubbornness.
It's not allowing information in.

Speaker 2 It's not allowing. for a constructive dialogue about what's happening with your work.
And it's a huge stumbling block. I can recall the first,

Speaker 2 I'll call it, well, thesis collection that singers in the Department of Fashion Design were executing when I was the chair there. I got rid of the former senior construct, introduced this

Speaker 2 thesis, and there were 70 students. And we had a jury show to determine who would actually be in the annual fashion show, which has always been a big fundraiser for Parsons.
And

Speaker 2 there were 14 14 students who didn't get in.

Speaker 2 And I met with all 70 seniors and I told them who was in,

Speaker 2 well, who had a whole collection in, only 12 students, who had one or two items in and the bulk of them, and who wasn't in at all. And I said to the 14 of them, it's not that your concept was bad.

Speaker 2 It wasn't that your execution was, well, it's not that your concept was bad, though it may have been. And it wasn't that your execution was bad, though it may have been, or inadequate, I should say.

Speaker 2 There is one common, or also for the jury show, the students had to do an installation of

Speaker 2 eight to ten looks.

Speaker 2 And in some cases, it wasn't that the installation was offbeat.

Speaker 2 There's one common denominator: stubbornness. All 14 of you heard feedback for eight months, and you just completely ignored it.
And I said, this isn't

Speaker 2 retribution to say you're not on the show. The jury decided.
But I said, the jury didn't know what went on behind the scenes or

Speaker 2 what went on for the previous seven and a half months. They just knew what they saw in the Parsons auditorium, and this is how they voted.
And I have respect for them.

Speaker 2 But in my analysis, asking why these 14, this is the common denominator, stubbornness.

Speaker 1 That's interesting. And I want to take it a step further, especially

Speaker 1 these are the words of Mick and Mick only. So Tim is not saying this, but with some of the younger gen, whatever we're on now, Z elementary.

Speaker 2 I don't know either.

Speaker 1 But Tim, you once said silence is the death of any relationship.

Speaker 1 So for people that are just so used to everything's on the phone and this is how they communicate, how do you teach people, whether it's in a classroom or you're just mentoring folks, on how and why clear communication has shaped who you are and can shape who others are?

Speaker 2 That's an excellent question.

Speaker 2 My most recent teaching was at Emerson College in Boston. I was there for

Speaker 2 five semesters and I had had a hiatus from Parsons. I left in 2007.

Speaker 2 So it was, oh, a good 12 years that I've been gone from the classroom. And I have to tell you, I was a nervous wreck about

Speaker 2 what this new generation would be like and would present.

Speaker 2 And I found out, because I first have a lot of colleagues who are in the academic world and they're teaching. I found out that I was very blessed to have the Emerson students that I had because

Speaker 2 they wowed me. They made me feel so positive about the future.
They were so thoughtful, so extremely articulate. Cell phones weren't going off in the class.

Speaker 2 And I don't like delivering mandates like put your phones away. I didn't need to.
They just did.

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Speaker 2 But I will also say,

Speaker 2 reflecting upon past teaching, I think it's very important

Speaker 2 to

Speaker 2 make each student feel that they're part of the solution of advancing the class, moving things forward. When I first started to teach back in 1978, I thought I had to be the answer man.

Speaker 2 I thought, and this is before Google, or I could have just gone into a closet and Googled things. But it made me extremely nervous thinking I'm responsible for all the content and for

Speaker 2 being able to answer believably the students' questions. And I thought, I don't have all the answers.

Speaker 2 It's not possible. So it took me several years to realize that what I really need to do is just turn this back on the students.
Great question.

Speaker 2 For the next class, I want each of you to research this and come with an answer or with a point of departure for us to discuss and

Speaker 2 what's most important here is i want you to come with an answer you think no one else will have which meant that they had to do a deep dive couldn't just be superficial wikipedia lookup they had to do a deep dive and it really worked and the students felt not only invested there was this enthusiasm about sharing this information and where'd you get that from?

Speaker 2 How did you find that out? And I loved the fact that it just enlivened what can become a rather dampened academic experience.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I really believe that turning this onto the young people and saying, you're part of the solution here. You're not a bird in a nest, and I'm feeding you worms.
You are responsible for your education.

Speaker 2 And I will also say, I would begin every semester this way. I want you to know

Speaker 2 you're responsible for 70% of the heavy lifting in this class. I'm here for 30% of it.
You're here for 70%.

Speaker 2 And I also want you to know, in my world, the squeaky wheel does not get greased. So don't even think about squeaking.

Speaker 2 Love it.

Speaker 2 Love it. Love it.
Love it.

Speaker 1 You know, Tim, earlier when I introdu you you, I talked about the mantra, make it work.

Speaker 1 Talk to the listeners and viewers about that a little bit, about where it came from, why, I mean, I know why it's so powerful, but just how that's just become Tim Gunn.

Speaker 2 Well, thank you, Mick. It happened in a Parsons classroom.

Speaker 2 I was teaching a 30-week course in senior-year concept development, and the students spend the first six to eight weeks of that course developing. the concept for the spinal collection.

Speaker 2 And then they spend the remainder of the time seeing it through. In my class, it's all on paper.

Speaker 2 There's a corresponding class in which they're making it three-dimensionally, and of course, other classes that they're taking.

Speaker 2 But for the construction course and for my concept course, it's 30 weeks. So it's now April.
And one of my students says, I'm changing everything.

Speaker 2 What are you talking about? You're changing everything. I've been working on this for months.
Oh, I don't like it anymore. It just, it doesn't appeal to me.
I really want to do something else.

Speaker 2 And I said, well, you're not.

Speaker 2 You're not doing something else. You're going to sit with this conundrum that you have.
You're going to offer up a diagnosis of what's going awry, what's wrong.

Speaker 2 And then you're going to offer up a prescription for how to make it work. And that's where it was born.
And I found it was very useful.

Speaker 2 And I said to her, you know, I could let you start all over again. And what if it's a smashing success? Then what have you actually learned to abandon something and start again?

Speaker 2 It could also be a big disaster, something that you really dislike and wish that you had gone back and continued the trajectory of what you were doing originally.

Speaker 2 So by making you do this, and I am making you do it, you will develop problem-solving skills that have

Speaker 2 gone untouched within you. And it will help you with the next problem you have to solve and the one after that, because life is all about problem-solving.

Speaker 2 And the more equipped you are to deal with that, the more successful you are.

Speaker 2 I love it. I love it.

Speaker 1 You know, Tim, before I get you out of here with my rapid fire, I want to give you the floor. Like, what does Tim Gunn have going on now?

Speaker 2 Well, quasi-retirement,

Speaker 2 which I have to tell you, Mick.

Speaker 2 I am the luckiest guy in the world for so many reasons. And one of them is I am, I've never been bored a day in my life.

Speaker 2 There's so much that I enjoy doing and so many things that pull at my heartstrings. And I live in New York, which is just, there's a wealth of things here.

Speaker 2 Even if you don't do anything, you know what's going on right outside. And

Speaker 2 I have to tell you, we all know these are tough times in this nation. And

Speaker 2 my

Speaker 2 source of purging and catharsis and enlightenment and inspiration is quite frankly the Metropolitan Museum of Art. I'm there at least once a week.
This week I'm there twice for two special tours.

Speaker 2 But it really reminds me of the triumph of the human spirit and what we can achieve. And it's just enormously inspirational for me.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I'm enjoying being with you. And I just, I feel tremendously lucky and very, very blessed, I have to say.

Speaker 1 Well, today I'm definitely the lucky one.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 1 again, I want to thank you for all that you've done

Speaker 1 and what you just mean

Speaker 2 for

Speaker 2 culture,

Speaker 1 what you mean as a mentor to people.

Speaker 1 I could thank you enough, Tim, but I just wanted to look you in your eyes and just tell you thank you.

Speaker 2 I'm deeply flattered, Mick. Thank you.
And

Speaker 2 in return, I'm so grateful to you for what you do and what you share with people. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 So you're not getting out of here without doing this quick five, though.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 I saw you tried to delay it.

Speaker 2 I'd love to delay it.

Speaker 1 What is your favorite fashion era?

Speaker 2 Oh, the 1960s. Most 90s.
And you have to finish it. The 60s.
Love it.

Speaker 1 What's the most surprising item in your closet right now?

Speaker 2 I'll be honest with you.

Speaker 2 And I will add, I have never worn them.

Speaker 2 A pair of black leather jeans.

Speaker 2 Ooh.

Speaker 1 Like Eddie Murphy Delirious?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 And it was something I thought about for

Speaker 2 a long time and finally purchased, but again, I've never worn them. I have to tell you, though, a funny anecdote.
I was in a Lucky Brand jean store probably, I don't know, 15 years ago.

Speaker 2 And there was a pair of waxed cotton, black cotton jeans. And when you see waxed cotton, it looks like leather.
And I thought, wow, this really appeals to me.

Speaker 2 And I don't know what it is about leather jeans. I probably need to see a doctor or something.
But I held these jeans up and I asked the salesperson, am I too old to wear these? He didn't hesitate.

Speaker 2 And he said, yes.

Speaker 2 You have to love honesty. So I think of that when I look at the jeans hanging in my leather jeans in my closet, thinking, I can't go out on the street.
I haven't even worn them in my own apartment.

Speaker 2 but they're there.

Speaker 1 What's the biggest fashion faux pas that you see most people making that they should quit doing?

Speaker 2 Too much skin. The bare midroof is dreadful.

Speaker 2 Cropped pants, they cut you off at the widest part of your calf, making your legs look shorter and stumpier.

Speaker 2 It's really too much skin. I'm not a fan of sleeveless dresses, unless you're Michelle Obama and you're wearing the stunning shift,

Speaker 2 but she can wear anything.

Speaker 2 Yeah, just too much skin in general. Okay.
Okay.

Speaker 1 For all my business leaders out there, male or female, what's one thing that we should be adding to our wardrobe that we don't think about?

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 I reflect upon this a lot, and I think it's a blazer. In this day of more casual dressing, and I can't believe I'm speaking to you without a tie on, but I thought I'm going to do it.

Speaker 2 You're in your office or wherever you may be.

Speaker 2 If you have a blazer in the back of your drawer and you can put it on, it just dresses everything else up that you're wearing and makes you more presentable. It makes you more confident, I believe.

Speaker 2 And the person or people with whom you're interacting are going to be impressed with the fact that you dressed up in a manner of speaking.

Speaker 2 When I say blazer, I'm not necessarily talking about a navy blue blazer with brass buttons. It can be, it should be personalized.

Speaker 2 It could be a red patent leather blazer for that, for all that matters.

Speaker 2 But just something that makes you look a little more polished. I love it.
I love it.

Speaker 1 All right, Tim, last one.

Speaker 1 Guilty pleasure food.

Speaker 1 What you going to?

Speaker 2 Every single solitary night.

Speaker 2 I have a microwave, a bag of microwave 100 calorie popcorn. Okay.

Speaker 2 And it's, I love it. In fact, I just ordered a whole crate of

Speaker 2 more of it.

Speaker 1 Shout out to Orbo Redenbacher because I know the bag you're talking about. Because, Tim, guess what mine is?

Speaker 2 What?

Speaker 1 Is it not every night, but a couple of nights a week.

Speaker 2 You know, I do. Because I don't feel bad about 100 calories.
No, and I tried not to do it every night. And then I had these pangs.
And I thought, why am I

Speaker 2 practicing the self-deprivation? Just have it. Yeah.
And occasionally I throw in a few pepper to farm goldfish, cheddar,

Speaker 2 and occasionally a few cashews or almonds just to pepper it up.

Speaker 2 But I'm an addict and I'm proud of it.

Speaker 2 As you should be. As you should be.

Speaker 1 Tim, again.

Speaker 1 I appreciate you more than you know. This episode means a lot to me.
My wife is a huge fan of yours, so I'm going to let her know. I got to talk to Tim and you did.

Speaker 1 She's going to be okay with it.

Speaker 2 Please give your wife and your kids my best. Give them my love.
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 And I'll be back in the city later this fall. So I'm going to reach out to you.

Speaker 2 I'd love to see you. Thank you.

Speaker 1 You got it. Tim, again.
Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 I'll make sure in the description and show notes, we have links to all the things that you're doing and all your handles, and we'll get everybody following you.

Speaker 2 Thank you so much, Mick.

Speaker 1 You got it. To all the viewers and listeners, remember: your because

Speaker 2 is your superpower.

Speaker 1 Go unleash it. You've been plugged into Mick Unplugged.
Don't just listen, take action. Rate and subscribe.
Follow me on social and get the full experience at mickuntofficial.com.

Speaker 2 Keep building, keep leading, and most importantly, keep dominating.

Speaker 5 Next up is a little song from CarMax about selling a car car your way.

Speaker 5 So fast. Wanna take a sec to think about it.
Or like a month. Wanna keep tabs on that instant offer.

Speaker 1 With OfferWatch.

Speaker 2 Wanna have CarMax pick it up from your driveway.

Speaker 5 You wanna do it. So, wanna drive? CarMax.

Speaker 2 Pickup not available everywhere. Restrictions and fee may apply.

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