#943 - Will Ahmed - The Downfall Of CrossFit & The Future Of Fitness

Speaker 1 Dude, how

Speaker 2 high and how hard did CrossFit drop the ball over the last few years?

Speaker 1 Wow, CrossFit.

Speaker 1 Well, CrossFit is, first of all, a great grassroots.

Speaker 1 It's a great grassroots movement in the sense that it literally began as an email list. And it's amazing to think how far they were able to go with that.

Speaker 1 And then you've got the Greg Glassman racism stuff and like the craziness during Black Lives Matter.

Speaker 1 And then you've got this whole new leadership team that comes in. By the way, around that time, we became partners with CrossFit.

Speaker 1 And I mean, I've now been building WOOP for

Speaker 1 13 years, without question, the most dysfunctional partner we've ever worked with.

Speaker 1 Like, and we've worked with a lot of partners.

Speaker 2 And a lot of dysfunction, I imagine, as well.

Speaker 1 A lot of different partners. And

Speaker 1 then the tragedy at this recent event. I don't know, the whole thing is so poorly run, it's hard to even talk about it because it's such a missed opportunity.

Speaker 2 I've never seen anybody fumble the bag so hard in like in fitness. If you'd said 10 years ago, 2015,

Speaker 2 uh, actually, probably when was peak, 2017, probably 2018, something like that, like absolute peak CrossFit.

Speaker 1 I think so, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Uh, if you'd said then

Speaker 2 what the next

Speaker 2 seven, eight years had in store, no one would have believed you.

Speaker 2 It's outrageous. And I think it,

Speaker 2 a lot of people, when they look at businesses from the outside, they see sophistication, they see popularity, they see

Speaker 2 rate of adoption. The thing that nobody sees is what the internal operations of that company is like.
And

Speaker 2 sometimes it can be all shiny, shiny and perfect out front. And inside is just a total like mess.
It's just a dumpster fire.

Speaker 2 And it feels like that might be the case.

Speaker 1 And they also had a great community and a great brand, which are two things that are pretty resilient. Like when things go wrong and there's like elements of dysfunction.

Speaker 1 And even with that, I mean, it's unbelievable how

Speaker 1 sorry of a place it is now.

Speaker 2 Turning people that, whatever, consume your product or are a user into an evangelist for it. I mean,

Speaker 2 everybody's new fitness pursuit is their most exciting thing.

Speaker 2 You know, every vegan wants to tell you about veganism, and every CrossFitter wanted to tell you about CrossFit and every High Rocks athlete wanted to tell you about Hyrox.

Speaker 2 And then now every run club person is trying to get you to go to their run club on a Saturday morning and do a 5K.

Speaker 2 But yeah,

Speaker 2 the level of adoption that CrossFit had and the pace of change.

Speaker 2 And I think

Speaker 2 I get the sense that the only reason we're seeing High Rocks and sort of hybrid training come through is because of the hole that has been left by sort of the exiting of CrossFit.

Speaker 2 There's some new things. It's a bit, it's lower impact.

Speaker 2 Maybe it's a little bit more accessible to go and do a Hyrox event than it would have been to have tried to go to sectionals or do a local CrossFit comp.

Speaker 2 Like I'd rather do burpee broad jumps than try and do a snatch or a handstand walk. But yeah, I don't think, I think Hyrox's ascendancy can be laid at the feet of what CrossFit dropped.

Speaker 1 I think there's an opportunity for a lot of these different fitness communities. I I mean, you have F42, you've got Berries, you've got Orange Theory, you've got

Speaker 1 these different types of Pilates studios. And like, it sort of seems like

Speaker 1 people are looking almost for the new thing. And that in turn allows for these different, you know, micro-communities to pop up around a particular activity.

Speaker 1 And at the end of the day, I think

Speaker 1 weightlifting for a lot of people is intimidating. Exercise is lonely and hard.
Like, you know, it makes sense that there are these

Speaker 1 boutique communities, so to speak. And so I wouldn't actually attribute the success of these other communities solely to CrossFit's downfall.

Speaker 1 I think CrossFit in itself, it probably appeals to you and me, but you know, it had a high injury rate before they even had dysfunction as a company.

Speaker 1 It is like a pretty intimidating workout out of the gates.

Speaker 2 Like, there's a lot of people that it's you don't just go in and have a genetic.

Speaker 1 There's a lot of people it's going to turn off like right out of the gates.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you can go and plod along in a 5K, but you can't do that in a CrossFit class.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. What are you seeing from a fitness industry perspective at the moment? What are sort of the broad trends that you've been able to track over however long you've been watching everything?

Speaker 1 So last year, the biggest uptick was pickleball. Let's go.
And then in the last

Speaker 1 so that, so I mean, 2023 actually, and then 2024,

Speaker 1 the biggest we saw saw was paddle. So, two racquet sports, interestingly.
Pickleball grew a lot in the United States. Paddle,

Speaker 1 which people in the States call Padel, but Paddle,

Speaker 1 which is what it's called internationally,

Speaker 1 has just taken off. And so, that's a pretty fascinating game, too.
I grew up playing squash and tennis.

Speaker 1 So, for me, paddle is like maybe the most fun game I've ever played because it's a sort of perfect hybrid of the two. Are you familiar with what it looks like?

Speaker 1 Yeah. So, it's, you know, the whole glass courts all the way around, and you're sort of, you're sort of in a tennis court in

Speaker 1 like, you know, a glass cage and you can essentially play the ball off of anything. And it's, it's pretty dynamic and fun.

Speaker 2 And is this based on the number of activities traveling?

Speaker 1 Yeah, in terms of like the percent, the percentage increase of activities we've seen on Whoop. Wow.
That was that was the biggest one last year.

Speaker 2 So you guys are kind of like a fitness trend aggregator now.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we've got a lot of data. That's for sure.

Speaker 1 The thing that people still struggle with the most is sleep. It's amazing how,

Speaker 1 you know, like 20, I think it's 22% of people on WOOP

Speaker 1 get over seven hours of sleep. So you just think about that, like, you know, roughly 80% of people are getting less than seven hours of sleep.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I think sleep sometime in the last like five years became the new steps where all of a sudden people just realized that was an important thing to care about.

Speaker 1 And steps maybe in turn was a less important thing to care about in the grand scheme of things.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 yeah, we've certainly benefited from people's enthusiasm towards sleep. But it's, yeah, it's super important.

Speaker 2 It's hard to try.

Speaker 2 I've said this for a long time that as soon as you begin using any fitness tractor, the first thing that you learn is you're not sleeping anywhere near as much as you thought you were. Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's a very painful. You're like, no, I got eight hours.
It's like, no, dude, you were in bed for seven and a half and you were asleep at 6.45.

Speaker 1 There, there, yeah. That's the trap is people previously, if you ask them how much sleep did they get last night, they're like, well, I went to bed at 11.
I woke up at six. I got seven hours of sleep.

Speaker 1 And then they realize after you do all the factoring of time awake and they say, yeah, it's five and a half hours of sleep. And

Speaker 1 yeah. So, you know, one of the things we recently did was update how we think about sleep, where it's less just the total hours that you got versus how much you needed and it's now

Speaker 1 also looking at sleep consistency efficiency and stress and so it's a sort of a better

Speaker 1 it took us a while to get there but we did a lot of research around what is quality sleep

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 uh

Speaker 1 one of the biggest things that shows up in the research is the importance of um consistency which is going to bed and waking up at the same time and you and i were just talking about how hard that is in general i mean you you the nightclub promoter probably you the new dad Yeah.

Speaker 1 So that's probably my worst metric on whoop, in part because travel just nukes it.

Speaker 1 So for people wondering how it's calculated, like for the last, you look at like for the last four nights, how similarly was your bedtime and wake time?

Speaker 1 And if you travel over time zones, that of course factors into your

Speaker 1 consistency. And

Speaker 1 but essentially, there's all this research just showing that if you can build, you know, a sort of continuity around bed and wake times, your overall circadian rhythm, your overall performance of your body, longevity, I mean, it's one of the key indicators we discovered when we built this health span score

Speaker 1 for

Speaker 1 overall health span and actually all-cause mortality.

Speaker 2 Trevor Burrus, Jr.: I had Dr.

Speaker 2 Matthew Walker sat here and he was telling me about how for some people that are, I think they're like circadian sensitive, I actually unfortunately think that I'm one of these people,

Speaker 2 sleep consistency and regularity are more important than sleep duration.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And that means that the classic, well, you know, I get good sleep during the week, but I kind of send it on a weekend is actually not, you can't do that.

Speaker 2 You can't accumulate sleep debt Monday through Friday and then pay it off on Saturday or Sunday or do the reverse.

Speaker 2 And that, you know, dicking about with the time that you go to bed and the time that you wake up is actually like pretty detrimental.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we call that social jet lag and uh

Speaker 1 it's interesting for a lot of people on whoop it's it's quite common

Speaker 1 that they lock in for a second yeah they're good for five days and then on the weekend it's like off by three hours and they're kind of back to the what's people's worst day of sleep typically do you know uh it's either friday or saturday night in the u.s

Speaker 1 now it's interesting now that whoop is global we have a lot of different perspectives on this but the middle east with sleep is crazy they're like in their own world. How so?

Speaker 1 So the average bedtime in Riyadh or in Doha is like 1.55 a.m.

Speaker 2 No way. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I think Doha is the latest. I think it's like a little after 2 a.m.

Speaker 2 What do you attribute that to? So late night food, Shisha, bars?

Speaker 1 Yeah. So those are two countries that for the most part don't drink alcohol.
And so I think in part they're substituting that with things like caffeine and nicotine.

Speaker 1 And so like those are stimulants that are going to keep you up later.

Speaker 2 It's a good justification for letting alcohol into your country to just bring that bedtime.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so I think it's entirely cultural.

Speaker 2 It's interesting.

Speaker 2 What are some other outlier countries that are interesting with some odd metrics?

Speaker 1 Ireland drinks more alcohol than everyone else.

Speaker 1 Maybe that's not too unexpected.

Speaker 1 I think Australia and the U.S. report the highest rates of sex.

Speaker 2 Okay, that's interesting.

Speaker 1 So, so

Speaker 1 good for them.

Speaker 1 Cold plunging, I think, is very popular in Sweden relative to other countries.

Speaker 2 Finland for saunas, probably.

Speaker 1 Yeah, Finland Fersonas.

Speaker 1 And then there's very activity-specific stuff. Like, you know, certain countries do way more of like

Speaker 1 certain activities. Like in the US, the top three activities are like walking, running, and cycling.

Speaker 1 And then after that, it's like functional fitness and weightlifting, which is kind of like the order of operations that you'd expect.

Speaker 1 But then like

Speaker 1 in the UK, for example, they've got like

Speaker 1 a much higher weightlifting culture, interestingly. So like that replaces cycling.

Speaker 2 Well, it's also freezing cold and wet. So I don't think people want to be out on the roads why is there no bodybuilding on the app

Speaker 1 i think we have power lifting and we have weightlifting

Speaker 2 functional fitness no neither of those are bodybuilding me and all my bros in the gym like fuck i gotta pretend that i did snatch and fucking clean and jerk today that what do you what do you define as power lifting bodybuilding or excuse me bodybuilding versus powerlifting a normal push-pull like split a sort of eight to fourteen rep range not working to the goal of strength and not working to the goal of specific movements, but working to the goal of hypertrophy.

Speaker 2 It wouldn't be intense enough to be called functional fitness or varied enough to be that. Weightlifting, the sport of Olympic weightlifting, right, is the snatching, the cleaning jerk.

Speaker 2 Powerlifting is SBD, squat bench deadlift. And if I go in and I do,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 four by 14 on bicep curls, What do I log that as?

Speaker 2 So, I mean, I put it in as weightlifting, which I assume is what most most other people are doing too, because you are lifting weights. Okay, we'll add it.

Speaker 1 We'll add it. Yes.
We'll have an activity for bodybuilding.

Speaker 2 My gym bros. I've done it.
God, it's only taken me five or six years to do it.

Speaker 2 I found out something during my research. I found out that you're an only child too,

Speaker 2 and this is going to be kind of like a immovable object and an unstoppable fucking force as two only children meet.

Speaker 2 Have you ever reflected or do you reflect much on how that influenced you, sort of how it shaped your personality, the things that you expect the way that you were socialized how you showed up as a young man and now an older man

Speaker 1 is a great question i mean i think

Speaker 1 the first obvious thing is that

Speaker 1 i do think only children are more self-centered like i think that there's an element of

Speaker 1 uh

Speaker 1 if there's things that you

Speaker 1 want in life, there's sort of an element that you believe you can go get them.

Speaker 1 And I think that that's probably something that only children have a stronger gravitation to or comes more naturally. There's also another element, which is that

Speaker 1 at least for me, I found I spent a lot of time with adults when I was a kid and I would travel with my parents to different countries. And

Speaker 1 so I also got comfortable around being people, like sitting at a dining room table with like seven other adults and me.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 strangely, the two things that I just described actually boded well for being a young entrepreneur because

Speaker 1 I think so much of building anything, it's probably even so much of like, what do you want to do in life, is

Speaker 1 knowing what you want and figuring out how to get what you want.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I think that knowing what you want is like a deeply

Speaker 1 it requires a deep sort of inwards reflection.

Speaker 1 I think the mistake that a lot of people make, particularly when they're young, like I started whooping when I was 22 years old, the mistake that a lot of people make when they're that age is they ask everyone else what they should do and they don't ask themselves.

Speaker 1 And so I think that the best path of trying to figure out what you want, like knowing what you want, is to look inwards.

Speaker 1 And as an only child, you also spend a lot of time alone. And so looking inwards is sort of a natural sex night show.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then there's, of course, like practices that you can develop to look inwards. Like I got into meditating and we can talk about that.
But

Speaker 1 so looking inwards was something I became

Speaker 1 comfortable with. And

Speaker 1 then the process of getting what you want, I think is actually, it's really important to get outwards, like to go be around a lot of people and, you know, essentially try to ask for what you want in the world and get rejected a lot and sort of deal with that.

Speaker 1 And again, the mistake that a lot of people make when they're trying to get what they want is they actually become isolationist.

Speaker 1 And so there's an interesting, you know,

Speaker 1 irony to this whole concept of get what you want and or, you know, discover what you want and get what you want.

Speaker 1 But then I think there's also an element with being an only child where

Speaker 1 you can build up

Speaker 1 you potentially can build up more self-esteem because your parents have more time to sort of

Speaker 1 pay attention to you. Right.

Speaker 1 And I, you know, I have great parents and they they loved me considerably and i think that helped with self-esteem you know probably throughout my childhood and and growing up which probably in turn when i was starting a company

Speaker 2 made me more resilient in the face of rejection you believe that you can do things that other people might have had second thoughts about

Speaker 1 yeah

Speaker 1 yeah now

Speaker 1 I also had a lot of conviction in what I was building, more conviction in the thing than I had in myself, which is an interesting concept in itself.

Speaker 1 But like, I believed that what I was building should exist in the world and would exist in the world. And what I struggled with for years in building it was, can I do this? Am I capable of this?

Speaker 1 Oh, gosh, I feel like I'm under a lot of stress or I feel like I'm under a lot of pressure or

Speaker 1 I don't know the answers to these things or how do I hire someone or how do I fire someone or how do I raise money? Like for me, it was dealing with that sort of trauma of building the company.

Speaker 2 How did you learn to

Speaker 2 get past your self-doubt? Have you got past your self-doubt? How much does it still creep in?

Speaker 1 I don't have a lot of self-doubt now. I think that

Speaker 1 I think that I've gotten good at

Speaker 1 questioning why I have conviction in things and then, you know, sort of examining that through other people's perspectives or through my own,

Speaker 1 you know, sort of deeper examination, if you will. I don't think that

Speaker 1 you ever stop entirely having self-doubt, and you probably shouldn't, you know, because then I think you get a little unhinged, so to speak.

Speaker 1 But I do think that confidence and self-belief is sort of a prerequisite for doing anything really hard.

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Speaker 2 It's an interesting one. So I resonate with a lot of the points you made, certainly the spending much time on your own,

Speaker 2 the uncertainty, the self-doubt, there's something I want to do, but I don't know if I can do it. Am I the person to do it? I think it should be here.

Speaker 2 I think this is something that's important, but is it my

Speaker 2 role, my capacity? Do I have the capacity to bring this thing into existence? I certainly feel that.

Speaker 2 And I think this is a, regardless of how many brothers or sisters you had, I think this is a pretty perennial problem. People who are growth-minded and have high standards, insecure overachievers,

Speaker 2 they position an ideal and then they compare themselves to the ideal and they find themselves falling short by design because that's what an ideal is.

Speaker 2 Or you set big goals or you have a dream or you have whatever, whatever it is that you want to do.

Speaker 2 And it also sort of programmed into just the typical cadence of how this stuff works is

Speaker 2 you have something you're chasing toward and you're uncertain about whether or not you're going to get there right up until basically the moment you get there.

Speaker 2 And then the second you get there, you move the goalpost again. So there's no point at which you feel like you've arrived.
So you very rarely actually sit in accomplishment and gratitude.

Speaker 2 So if you're permanently doing this iterative sort of, I get close and I move away and I get close and I move away and I get close and I move away. If you're permanently doing that,

Speaker 2 at what point are you not going to feel like you're lacking? You're permanently in lack because you continue to push it further away, continue to push it.

Speaker 2 I think all of this sort of combined together creates this

Speaker 2 soup that's probably pretty fertile to grow self-doubt out of. But at least for me, I realized this last year.

Speaker 2 I did this live show in London, it was kind of a formative, a little bit of a formative moment.

Speaker 2 It was three and a half thousand people at this big theater, and I was like, holy fuck, like, I'm on stage in front of three and a half thousand people. This is insane.
And

Speaker 2 someone asked me, we do these,

Speaker 2 people can come and watch the sound check that are in the first few rows. And

Speaker 2 someone asked me a question. They said, sort of, did you think, is this part of the plan? Did you think you were going to get here?

Speaker 2 I was like, I'm the poster child for imposter syndrome in a lot of ways.

Speaker 2 Chronic self-doubt, a lot of uncertainty.

Speaker 2 But I think, kind of in the same way that you said, which is if you believe that this thing is supposed to exist in the world, and if you really like the thing, and you kind of almost outsource your own self-doubt to, well, this has got rocket fuel behind it.

Speaker 2 And I'm just going to keep seeing if that thing can come. And I can't tell anybody else to bring it into existence.
So I might as well have a crack at it myself.

Speaker 2 And if you're sufficiently stubborn, kind of before you know it, you don't fake it until you make it, you sort of make it until you believe it. And then you go, Oh,

Speaker 2 this is a thing, this is a company, like this is a tracker. And it actually tells people that, Oh, right, this is a podcast.

Speaker 2 Oh my god, I'm on stage in front of all of these people, or you know, this is, I've managed to get the degree, or I managed to move out of the town that I hated, or I managed to find a partner, I managed to build a fat, whatever it is that you thought, oh, like this thing is supposed to exist.

Speaker 2 I don't know if I'm a person that can do it, but I'm just going to keep sort of grinding away until it happens.

Speaker 2 And then when you actually turn around and look, you go, oh, fuck, I guess this is what arriving is.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's really well said. I mean, for me in building

Speaker 1 WOOP, it was helpful to sort of disassociate building the company and building myself as a CEO or an entrepreneur. And I think

Speaker 1 for years, like I had kind of wrapped those two things up as one. And so if, you know, if WOOP had a good day, I had a good day.
If Woop had a bad day, I had a bad day.

Speaker 1 If Woop was failing, I was failing.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 it's not a particularly productive sort of framing, if you will, for actually growing either yourself or the business. And the reality is that,

Speaker 1 you know, the business could be doing great and you could be spiraling out of control or vice versa. You know, how many businesses suffered during COVID to no fault of their management team, right?

Speaker 1 And so there's, it just, it's, it's quite important to separate those two things, I think, literally. And then I realized also that if I didn't start growing better,

Speaker 1 I was going to be the detriment to whoop growing because as the CEO.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because as the CEO, if you're projecting all sorts of stresses and

Speaker 1 you're not managing the company properly and you're kind of spinning out of control yourself, well, the business isn't going to be a problem.

Speaker 2 It's very difficult to have an orderly company and a chaotic founder. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And so I felt, yeah, I felt especially early on. I was very much that chaotic founder.
Now,

Speaker 1 it's hard to go back and say, well, I wish I could change the way I behaved for the first few years of the company's history because there is an element of, and I think I believe this, there's an element of you change one thing and, you know,

Speaker 1 everything else changes going forward.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And of course, I'm, I'm super grateful with where I sit today and, and, you know, what we've been able to build.
But

Speaker 1 yeah, I, I, I put up real walls in those, so that the period of like 22, probably to 24, 25 of just like real walls to anyone's feedback. And I was so certain about things and I was so stubborn.

Speaker 1 And I think it's in, in a way, it's a good, it's a, it's a helpful mechanism to get something off the ground because there's no ambiguity, but you're very hard to work with.

Speaker 2 I hear the same thing from the people that I work with. Yeah.
Maybe a little bit of only child syndrome showing through that. Yeah, there you go.

Speaker 2 But yeah, from both of us, my business partners would agree.

Speaker 2 I really resonate with, and this is something, you know,

Speaker 2 no matter what your pursuit is, if you're scrabbling a little bit for meaning in life, which almost everybody who's a bit sensitive and introspective is when they're young, because who the fuck are you?

Speaker 2 Like, how many people arrive at 20 or 23 and are like, yeah, I know who I am. I've got a good strong sense of self.
You know, things don't sway me. Shut up, dude.

Speaker 2 Of course stuff does. You get the weather's bad, and you feel bad about yourself because you just haven't had enough time to get those sort of stabilizers down.

Speaker 2 And I ran nightclubs for all this time, and exactly the same. The weird thing about running events, it's kind of like being a baseball player.
It's iterative, right?

Speaker 2 You have, especially for us, we have this big Saturday, and that was our big event from the age of 22

Speaker 2 until

Speaker 2 28. It was the Saturday that was our big money making.
It's the big game, so to speak yeah that was the big one and if the event had been successful I was worthy I was I was uh good

Speaker 2 um I was validated and if it was bad then that was a reflection on me but then

Speaker 2 I managed to get it to this much more pernicious place which was I'd associated working hard and pain and difficulty with good outcomes because typically when you worked a little bit harder there was some pain that came along with it but when you worked harder the outcomes were better but my brain

Speaker 2 you're already grinning my brain had shortcutted the link and it ended up being if we had an event that went well but I hadn't suffered that I didn't feel good and I started to make a direct link between Chris suffered Chris is good and worthy so the event had to go well first but I also had to have suffered so if it went well and I hadn't suffered I that wasn't good if it went badly whether I'd suffered or not that didn't matter so the only key that unlocked my self-worth for like a good bit of time was success objectively and pain subjectively.

Speaker 2 And if I'd done that, then hooray, maybe that's okay. So it's just, it's a really interesting twist, I guess, on the Puritan work ethic.

Speaker 2 It's like a capitalist Puritan work ethic where you know that you should be grinding and you are just so driven by dopamine and chaos and

Speaker 2 caffeine and in the nightlife industry, other substances too, that

Speaker 2 you end up in a place where

Speaker 2 you signal off of how hard this thing was. And then you get into your 30s and you go, hey, I want to have a family or I want to chill out.

Speaker 2 I want to be able to go to bed on a nighttime and my thoughts be a good quality. You go, oh, you need to let go of the entire pathway catalyst fuel that you were using previously.

Speaker 2 Good luck trying to unwind that. And that's been

Speaker 2 a task of basically the best part of a decade now for me to try and unwind that, that little linkage.

Speaker 1 Yeah, the unlock for me in that category has been to be driven and grateful.

Speaker 1 And I feel like it's easy to get stuck on just the drive train and the dopamine system of, you know, when the company is worth $100 million or a billion dollars or $10 billion, you sort of keep telling yourself, when I get to X, I'm going to be happy.

Speaker 1 And what's good about that from a drive standpoint is it drives you there. But of course, when you get there, there's sort of enormous letdown.

Speaker 1 And it's also,

Speaker 1 you have to balance it with being grateful for the moment that you're in. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs worry that or sort of misinterpret gratitude as complacency.

Speaker 1 But I think they are fundamentally different things. And, you know, and they work different,

Speaker 1 you know, aspects of your brain. Like the drive system is dopamine and the gratitude system is serotonin.
And both of those have a

Speaker 1 way of making you happier.

Speaker 2 How have you learned to navigate those two things, given that there's still things you want to achieve and you still do want to be driven? Yeah.

Speaker 2 But you don't want to look back on a series of miserable successes as a career.

Speaker 1 No, I mean

Speaker 1 So I would say my sort of

Speaker 1 broad operating principle is that I want to be of service. And that's a helpful framing because just out of the gates, it makes it less about what you accumulate and more about what you

Speaker 1 do for your company or society or your customers or fill in the blank. And beyond that, I also

Speaker 1 get to work in

Speaker 1 unlocking human performance and health span and this sort of like

Speaker 1 what I would call noble mission, which is around making people perform better and live longer. And so by

Speaker 1 not having

Speaker 1 my sole mission be around

Speaker 1 revenue numbers or

Speaker 1 company valuation or those sorts of things, I think that alone helps you get a little bit outside of

Speaker 1 the miserable successes, so to speak. And so it's very easy to

Speaker 1 just gloss over numbers that get bigger and not really associate any meaning with them. But when you go from getting,

Speaker 1 you know, one testimonial every six months to getting hundreds a week from people that are like, Your product changed my life.

Speaker 1 And you get to stand in front of your company and read that to 500 people who are, you know, blood, sweat, and tears trying to make this product great.

Speaker 1 you feel something. I mean, there's a lot of gratitude for me that comes from that experience.
And

Speaker 1 so

Speaker 1 I can still want to push for the company to be bigger and more successful and be affecting more people, but I can also at the same time, I think, appreciate the impact that it's having.

Speaker 1 And, and that's, I would say, will the entrepreneur or CEO, right? We all have these different identities. And,

Speaker 1 uh,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 I've sort of looked at hard things that happen in your life as a path to growth.

Speaker 1 Like we talked about early on when I was 22, like not really knowing what I was doing running a company and just having to go through that sort of painful period of becoming a better CEO or becoming a better human.

Speaker 1 I think that in general,

Speaker 1 you know, pain in some form leads to growth. And so if you kind of adopt a growth mindset, it makes you much more comfortable with being in that painful state.

Speaker 1 Now, you don't want to be, you don't want it to be in sort of a masochistic way where you're yeah, like what you just described, where you're like, you want to force yourself to be in pain, but more just in the sense that like, wow, a bunch of things just went wrong in a row for me.

Speaker 1 And this is very painful.

Speaker 1 Like my best friend committed suicide a little over a year ago. And

Speaker 1 that, like in my personal life, that was the most pain that I'd ever felt in my life. I'd never lost anyone,

Speaker 1 let alone someone who I had seen, you know, a week earlier. And

Speaker 1 I think when you're first going through the

Speaker 1 trauma of an experience like that, it's hard to find perspective in it.

Speaker 1 But, you know, if my emotional range at that point in my life was like from a six to a 10, where like, you know, zero is a bad, zero is like the worst thing in your life.

Speaker 1 And, and 10 is like, you know, you feel great euphoria. Like in hindsight, my emotional range was actually kind of narrow, right?

Speaker 1 And so being able to go down to a, to a one or a two for some period of time

Speaker 1 actually opened me up in a, in a really healthy way in the months later, and in a way that I never would have anticipated from

Speaker 1 having this terrible thing happen in my life.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 so, you know, some of it's a little bit of just how you reframe everything, but I have found that

Speaker 1 in whatever category of your life that you're feeling some kind of enormous pain, there is like

Speaker 1 there is something on the other side of it that you'll benefit from.

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Speaker 2 How do you keep operating a fast-growing business when personally you've gone through something like that?

Speaker 2 I think a lot of people have to show up to whatever their job is, whether they're the founder of a big company or they've just got a normal position or they've got to be there for the kids or or they've got to be there for their partner or whatever it is,

Speaker 2 when

Speaker 2 they're kind of going through it,

Speaker 2 how did you come to, I'm sure that you've reflected on this, how did you come to split-brain yourself into actually being a functional human?

Speaker 1 Well, your first reaction

Speaker 2 is

Speaker 1 to try to go numb because that is a coping mechanism. If you don't feel the pain, you can kind of still get through the day.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 you have to process the emotion, you have to feel it. And so I think in the first 10 days of it, I was sort of white knuckling through it and especially kind of day to day and running the company.

Speaker 1 Now, fortunately, the company is also at a stage where I've got, you know, an executive team that's that's pretty functional and

Speaker 1 they knew what I was going through. It wasn't like it was a secret.

Speaker 1 And then at least in this specific case for me,

Speaker 1 I delivered the

Speaker 1 eulogy

Speaker 1 and it was,

Speaker 1 I mean, he was a very popular young man and it was in front of 800 or 1,000 people in this massive church. And

Speaker 1 so that, and that was one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life was having to talk about his life.

Speaker 1 And, you know, someone I loved and cared about. And

Speaker 1 just a whole wave of emotions went through me doing that. And so that,

Speaker 1 one, I felt enormous relief from doing it.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 then, you know, two, in the aftermath of it, I was, I was proud of being able to celebrate his life. And so there was sort of a weight that was taken off from that experience.

Speaker 1 And then, of course, you deal with these other stages of grief, which is around like, you know, I would play squash with him every week.

Speaker 1 And so now every time I go to the squash courts, like I think about them or i go to the steam room and i would sit with them so you have these different um

Speaker 1 you have these different stages of grief but but i think in the sort of in those first 30 days the the best thing that i could have done was to go through that huge like wave of of um

Speaker 1 painful release of emotion

Speaker 2 yeah it's uh

Speaker 2 the classic male denial of any emotional issue yeah i'm just going to lean into knowing myself to how I can keep moving. This is what they would have wanted in any case from me.
Yeah. You know,

Speaker 2 logically, emotionally, psychologically, however you want to try and rationalize. If I just, this kind of sucks and I don't want to feel it.

Speaker 1 I think that that's sort of a natural,

Speaker 1 that's sort of a natural thing that any, anyone can do because it's, it's scary how your body feels. Like it's a physical, overwhelming

Speaker 1 state and

Speaker 1 it's distracting. Like

Speaker 1 you're in the middle of a conversation, next thing you're crying. So I understand that, but if anyone's listening to this who's going through grief, I would encourage them to

Speaker 1 take whatever time or whatever process they need to release what they're feeling in that period.

Speaker 2 Interesting that

Speaker 2 doing a eulogy is in itself a form of sort of therapeutic release in some ways for you.

Speaker 1 Oh, it was huge.

Speaker 1 And I think

Speaker 1 it was an exaggerated experience because

Speaker 1 I had to write down everything I felt about him.

Speaker 1 I had to, you know, deliver that in front of actually a large number of people that happened to also be all of my closest friends and all the hardcore type of public journal entry that you're ever going to do.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And it was a large public speaking event, too, which is its own form of whatever.
And

Speaker 1 I had never you know experienced death like that and i wanted to celebrate someone who was a really important person in a lot of people's lives so yeah i think that that it was a very exaggerated experience and

Speaker 1 um i'm i'm i'm grateful that i got to do that that aspect of it yeah

Speaker 2 i think uh

Speaker 2 just going back to the two points that you raised earlier on sort of working out what you want and then working out how to get it.

Speaker 2 I would hazard a guess that most people get stuck,

Speaker 2 think they get stuck in problem two, but are actually stuck in problem one.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's a great way to describe it.

Speaker 1 They're kind of out and about trying to chase a bunch of things, and they're upset they're not getting what they want, but they've never actually declared what they want.

Speaker 2 How did you investigate what it was that you wanted? What's some advice that you have for how people can better define that?

Speaker 1 Well, I think the first thing to know is that it's an inwards examination. You have to ask yourself what you want.
You can't go asking everyone in your life what you want.

Speaker 1 You'll never figure out what you want. And

Speaker 1 so that's a very internal and introspective pursuit. And I do think that

Speaker 1 it's hard when you're young because you haven't quite figured out how to talk to yourself yet. At least I hadn't when I was 18 or 19 years old.

Speaker 1 But you can be sort of self-aware of things that you're drawn to.

Speaker 1 So let's start with things that you're not drawn to. Well, you know, I did a a bunch of internships, so to speak, when I was like 18, 19, and 20 or whatever.

Speaker 1 And I worked in finance, which sort of seemed like what I should do because other people I knew were going to go into finance. And

Speaker 1 I just didn't enjoy it. And by the way, in my free time, I was, you know, doing research on the fitness industry or the wearables industry or this sorts of things.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 then, you know, when I would go play squash practice at Harvard or whatever,

Speaker 1 like, I would love working out and love like pushing myself. and and

Speaker 1 through that I also was someone who used to overtrain so I got interested in how you can figure you know how can you understand overtraining and

Speaker 1 through that I found myself doing physiology research on things that in the past I wouldn't have been interested in or not drawn to and

Speaker 1 I think the things that you think about in a shower or in the back of a cab like when your mind is quiet, so to speak, I think those things really matter. Like, what are you actually drawn to?

Speaker 1 Like, pay attention to that. Probably the biggest curse of cell phones and smartphones is that people aren't bored anymore.
And so they actually lose some of that inner dialogue.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I did a lot of therapy last year. And one of the best things that my therapist reminded me to do was pay attention to fleeting thoughts.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's well said.

Speaker 2 Specifically, it was when I was on the cushion. But also throughout the rest of life.
And fleeting thoughts are quiet.

Speaker 2 You know, they sort of appear appear and they come and go, and you can quite easily ignore them. And

Speaker 2 if you have some distraction in your pocket,

Speaker 2 if the volume that you need the rest of the world at to be able to hear fleeting thoughts is so low,

Speaker 2 and the volume that kind of comes out of your phone proportionally and mentally, whatever, cognitively, is so high, it's so loud, that it just, you're right, it doesn't have any room, doesn't have any space to appear.

Speaker 2 And yeah, that

Speaker 2 the ability to pay attention to fleeting thoughts and to think, huh? But then you need to be careful, right? Because the mind's slippery. And sometimes it'll say stuff to you.

Speaker 2 You go, yeah, that's bullshit. That's bullshit.
So that's a fleeting thought that's bullshit. Sometimes they are.
But sometimes it's a, I don't know what it is. I don't know where it comes from.

Speaker 2 I don't know.

Speaker 1 Well, I would say it's recurring fleeting thoughts because the things that matter to you keep coming back.

Speaker 1 At least I've found. And

Speaker 1 then I think the other thing that everyone should learn in some form is the ability to close their eyes and breathe.

Speaker 1 And whether you call that meditation or mindfulness or fill in the blank, develop some process to sit with yourself.

Speaker 2 And what about getting what you want? Let's say that somebody's managed to set, they've developed the ability to pay attention to fleeting thoughts. They're actually

Speaker 2 working in that way.

Speaker 2 Where have you noticed with the people that are around you, your team, yourself,

Speaker 2 what are the pitfalls that people find when it comes to actually getting what they want, assuming that they've managed to define it?

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 one step is to state it. I mean, don't be coy about it.
I want to build this company. I want to be a musician.
I, you know, fill in the blank. Like, what do you want? And state it to the world.

Speaker 1 And then

Speaker 1 you cannot underestimate hard work and consistency. If you are hard charging and consistently hard charging, that is such a differentiator on the, on sort of everyone else.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 that's in turn what creates luck.

Speaker 1 You know, like if you keep showing up and

Speaker 1 you keep getting rejected and all of a sudden you meet this person and they introduce you to that person and next thing you know, you're on a plane and you showed up to the city and it didn't quite make sense.

Speaker 1 And now you're meeting the person who all of a sudden has the answer to that thing you wanted, to that break that you needed.

Speaker 1 And so I, you know, I think getting what you want is some carb combination of hard work, consistency, and luck. And you could probably bolt on to that, like a comfort with rejection

Speaker 1 because you're going to get rejected enormously. And the more ambitious what you want is, the more you're going to be rejected.

Speaker 2 Most people aren't that. bothered by rejection.
I think most people are bothered by the fear of rejection.

Speaker 2 The idea of failure or rejection hurts so much more, I think, than actually being rejected.

Speaker 1 And that goes back to my point about people when they're trying to get what they want actually get insular rather than going out, right?

Speaker 1 Like you want to be introspective about what you want, and then you want to be extroverted about getting what you want.

Speaker 1 And I think people get stuck sort of going out and about because they're afraid of what's someone going to think if they know I want this thing or, you know, what if they say no to this?

Speaker 2 family or our friends, what is it that I should want? Yeah, and then when it comes to trying to go and get it, we don't go and ask for it because that insulates us from failure. Yeah,

Speaker 2 yeah, that's interesting. I hadn't thought about framing it that way, but I think it's I certainly think it's correct.

Speaker 2 I mean, cynicism, I think a lot of the cynicism that we see in the modern world is

Speaker 2 people assuring failure privately so they don't need to face the risk of failure publicly. Uh, if I don't basically,

Speaker 2 if I don't try, then then I can't fail.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 1 that's true.

Speaker 2 There's always sort of one foot

Speaker 2 a lot of the time when people commit not going 100% in to a relationship.

Speaker 2 It's like, you know, if I don't give everything to this, if I don't fully open myself up, if I sort of, you know, keep my eye wandering a little bit more, if I convince myself that this person isn't quite my person or whatever.

Speaker 1 That's a good point.

Speaker 2 Then if this doesn't go well, then, you know, like

Speaker 2 it's not a comment on me because I wasn't in it. I wasn't fully in it.
It's like most of me are a bit of me, but the bit of me that I care about gets saved over here.

Speaker 1 I think commitment is another criteria to get what you want, like being deeply committed to it. And whether that's a relationship or you know, a pursuit that you're after in your career, like

Speaker 1 staying committed to it is huge. A lot of, I meet a lot of young founders who are kind of,

Speaker 1 they're sort of in school, they sort of have a job, they're sort of starting something,

Speaker 1 right? And there's a safety in that.

Speaker 1 Because if any one of those things sort of blows up, they've still got together to push it on you and you'll still sound good at a dinner table, you know? I will say, though,

Speaker 1 getting over fear of rejection is part one, but getting over rejection is part two. Like I struggled with that.

Speaker 2 And how did you get rejected?

Speaker 1 Well, from the age of 21 to

Speaker 1 I mean, look, I've now dealt with rejection throughout every phase of building this company, but I would say it was most painful from the ages of like 21 to 24 because

Speaker 1 I hadn't experienced actually a lot of rejection in hindsight up to that point in my life. And

Speaker 1 everyone I was telling this idea to about like, hey, I want to start this company. This is the thing I'm going to do.

Speaker 1 A lot of people I respected, like they were were all kind of telling me, like, this is a bad idea, dude. Like, you should not do this.

Speaker 1 And, and then, of course, you go try to raise capital and investors tell you no, and you try to hire people and they tell you no. And, and,

Speaker 1 and I, you know, looking back on it, I think there was good reason for that. Like, I was a kid.
I was starting something that

Speaker 1 is big in engineering and medicine and computer science and math. And, you know, I'm not an engineer or a computer scientist or a doctor or a mathematician.

Speaker 1 And like, so there's just, and I was super young and naive. And so like, I understand why I faced all that rejection, but it still was very painful.
And

Speaker 1 then that's where the conviction piece wavers, like your commitment and your conviction.

Speaker 1 I was committed. I stayed very committed to the idea again because I had believed it was going to exist in the world.
And I had like deep conviction around that.

Speaker 1 But my self-belief, that's what wavered.

Speaker 1 Because Because when you get told no enough times, you're kind of like,

Speaker 1 well, either they're all crazy or I'm crazy. And, you know, at some point you're looking at like numbers like 50 to 1, 100 to 1.
You're like, well, okay.

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Speaker 2 I'm outsourcing my sort of wisdom to these people around me that are supposed to be people who are in the know, who are supposed to have some degree of expertise, or, you know, I went to them, so they're not total idiots.

Speaker 1 Totally. Maybe they are.

Speaker 2 Or maybe they just don't see it. And maybe, yeah, I think.

Speaker 1 I think one reflection is that

Speaker 1 I just hadn't proven enough at that point in time to

Speaker 1 make it more obvious or to make it a more acceptable idea. And

Speaker 1 that was both in the form of the idea and the maturation around the idea and the capability of the tech, as much as it was also

Speaker 1 sitting there like a future CEO and on the 2020s.

Speaker 2 Do you 23? Yeah. You know? Yeah.
So I remember, again, to use my equivalent, the world of nightlife,

Speaker 2 I would have been 19 or 20. So I would have been in my second or third year of university.

Speaker 2 We would sit down with these grizzled old leisure company owners who've got, you know, portfolios of many nightclubs. And they've been in the industry since the 90s or the 80s.

Speaker 2 Some of them, and me and my business partner are there. It's 2008 or 2009.

Speaker 2 And we're saying, well, look,

Speaker 2 you have have a fantastic venue, and the way that you stock and staff the bars are great, and your contacts with breweries are fantastic.

Speaker 2 You know, your service, your ingress, and egress are fantastic. Uh, Doors team, uh, solid, needs a little bit of work.

Speaker 2 Sometimes they get a bit heavy-handed with the, but you know, all in all, we think it's a really, really good place. And DJ Booth's in a good position, we can move people around quickly.

Speaker 2 You don't know anybody that wants to party. What the fuck are you doing with this empty venue? And we needed to say that to someone that was going, You're one-third of my age, I don't need you.

Speaker 2 And I always remember thinking,

Speaker 2 you can't see perspective in problems while you're in them, right? It's only in retrospect that you're able to go, oh, that's the lesson that I was. You don't learn the lesson while it's happening.

Speaker 2 It's one of the sort of ruthless things about people saying, well, you know, it's either a blessing or a lesson. And you go, yeah, but the lesson comes down the line.

Speaker 2 So it's kind of like either a blessing or a curse that has delayed onset to become a lesson in future. And

Speaker 2 yeah, I'd sit with with these guys, these grizzled old northern club promoter gateway keepers to between us and the venue. It's like, look, I don't own a venue.
You're right. I don't own a nightclub.

Speaker 2 I don't want to tie up half a million or a million or five million pounds of capital in bricks and mortar and stock and staff and bars and licenses and stuff like that.

Speaker 2 So I don't have, I have lots of people that want to go and party and I don't have anywhere to put them, but you have a big fucking building and it's really expensive and you don't know anyone that wants to go and drink there.

Speaker 2 And that was a

Speaker 2 to just have someone who was so much younger. You know, if you're a 60-year-old leisure company owner and you've got a 20-year-old sat in front of you going, you need me.
It's like, go fuck yourself.

Speaker 2 I don't need you. Go.

Speaker 2 So, and I always felt indignant. I felt very indignant about the fact that I knew that what I was saying was right and I had.

Speaker 2 belief in the product. Maybe even if I didn't have belief in myself, I had belief in what we could achieve.
I knew what our track record was like. And

Speaker 2 yeah, maybe the same with you.

Speaker 2 And this is kind of, I guess, an insight for anyone who is

Speaker 2 performing or shooting for goals that are kind of beyond their age a little bit. That

Speaker 2 we talk about ageism as, you know, discriminating against Joe Biden being old and like, you know, Nancy Pelosi and stuff like that. But ageism happens in reverse in the world of business, too.

Speaker 2 There is a, you know, if you're.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 If you're 38,

Speaker 2 no one's really got a problem with you doing anything.

Speaker 2 It's like you're slap out until you probably get to like top, top level VC shit, where you maybe need to be a little bit older or you start getting into government stuff.

Speaker 2 But like really, if you're mid to late 30s to probably what, 60s, everyone's just like, oh, he's just, he's just in the mix, right? He's in the mixer. But before that, there's just this sense of,

Speaker 2 yeah, all right, that's nice, but you really

Speaker 2 skepticism, like maybe undue skepticism that people have around this. I remember being so pissed off by it.
Didn't want to be treated like a kid

Speaker 2 because you know what you can achieve, but sometimes people can't quite see past the,

Speaker 2 like what's in front of them, the age of what's in front of them. And if you're trying to build a

Speaker 2 orthogonal, wearable company with tech that as yet doesn't exist, like

Speaker 2 there's going to be some hurdles for you to get over there.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And I didn't have great answers to the competition either.
And that was the sort of other variable in building the business that was quite complicated. It was just

Speaker 1 any sensible person was going to ask the 22-year-old or the 25-year-old, like, well, how are you going to beat Nike? How are you going to beat Apple?

Speaker 1 How are you going to beat Adidas and Under Armour and Microsoft and all these sort of big gargantuan companies?

Speaker 1 So that probably played a role in an appropriate level of skepticism.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it was fine. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Well, that's a special type of pain, right? To look back in retrospect and realize that this thing that you felt really aggrieved by was actually maybe justified a little bit.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, there's an element of, I think, building anything where

Speaker 1 you have to see a version of the future that other people don't see. And then at some point, you either need to be right or you're not.

Speaker 2 And you don't know until you get there. Yeah, that's that's kind of interesting.
I think we

Speaker 2 because of the ability of people to use leverage, we maybe

Speaker 2 over-index, over-glorify the solo, lone wolf, crazy genius entrepreneur.

Speaker 2 And obviously, you end up with a ton of survivorship bias because you don't hear about all of the people that tried the crazy new idea. And yeah, you remortgaged your mom and dad's house and

Speaker 2 didn't work. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Those aren't newsworthy stories.

Speaker 1 What's your take on

Speaker 1 failure? Because I feel like failure has gotten very romanticized.

Speaker 2 I fucking hate failing. Yeah.
I hate failing so much.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 don't have a particularly good relationship with the idea of it.

Speaker 2 I've failed very few times across my entire professional career, which suggests that I'm moving too slowly.

Speaker 2 And I would tell somebody else, if they were like, hey, man, I've basically never failed at anything I've tried professionally. Go, that's just an indication that you're playing within the bounds.

Speaker 1 Your

Speaker 2 safety tolerance and comfort is

Speaker 1 too much. You can push further.

Speaker 2 Yes, exactly, because you're waiting until you've got basically 100% confidence in whatever it is that you're going to do.

Speaker 2 The confidence interval has collapsed so much that there's no chance it's not going to work, essentially no chance it's not going to work,

Speaker 2 which means that you could iterate more quickly, maybe break a few things, but move significantly faster. That's me.

Speaker 2 I knew I wanted to move to America three or four years before I actually finally made it.

Speaker 2 I probably should have left the world of nightlife at least a couple of years before that. No, we're talking not huge amounts of time, but when you're 28, three years is fucking 10% of your life.

Speaker 2 It's, you know, 30% of your adult life. Sure.
So it's

Speaker 2 the

Speaker 2 failure porn thing, I get where it comes from. And it comes from a place of wanting to reassure people that if stuff doesn't go badly, if stuff doesn't go well, if it does go badly, you'll be okay.

Speaker 2 I understand. I think that's a noble place to put it in.

Speaker 1 And I'd go a step further. I think it's actually in part to get people over the fear of failure.

Speaker 1 Sort of get them out of the blocks, right? Take the leap.

Speaker 2 Stop being paralyzed.

Speaker 1 Don't be paralyzed. Yeah.
I think that's where, to your point, the failure porn is coming from is trying to convince people that it's okay to put themselves out there.

Speaker 2 Well, that's a much more noble way to think about it. If it's.

Speaker 2 Because,

Speaker 1 yeah, my

Speaker 1 reflection is that

Speaker 1 I've learned more from successful endeavors than I have from ones that have failed. And I think failure is largely overrated.

Speaker 2 That's interesting. Why?

Speaker 1 So sometimes, I think this is particularly true of startups. I think that

Speaker 1 a lot of startups all kind of fail for the same reasons. You know, they didn't find product market fit or they burned cash too fast or,

Speaker 1 you know, ultimately the product or service was something that another competitor did faster than them, or they undercut on price. Like there's like five things that most of the

Speaker 1 co-founders got angry at each other. There's like five things that like all startups essentially fail from.

Speaker 1 But the companies that really make it, they all kind of have some kind of like secret in a way. Like they have some magic.
And

Speaker 1 I think that there's probably more that's unique about each of those than

Speaker 1 sort of it is the same. And so for people who have been on

Speaker 1 that sort of one in 100 rocket ship, I think that you're learning some special sauce.

Speaker 1 And in the future, you're going to look for, hey, what is the special sauce? Like we actually have to,

Speaker 1 we have to create something here.

Speaker 1 We have to spark something that otherwise we're not going to have.

Speaker 2 That's such a good point.

Speaker 1 That

Speaker 1 if

Speaker 2 people were to learn more from failures than they were from successes they still don't know what they're looking for you don't actually know what it is you're looking for you just have a series of things you know you're not looking for yeah and i agree with what you said earlier on which is that like uh avoiding pitfalls can sometimes be more useful than expediting success like if you if you learn a really really important lesson about uh not

Speaker 2 reducing down your fucking cash flow to the point where one bad week kicks you out the bottom of your business like yeah that's a that's a lesson you're only ever gonna hopefully only ever going to learn once.

Speaker 2 But that still doesn't actually tell you the lesson that you're trying to get toward. It just tells you some of the ones that you're trying to get away from.
And

Speaker 2 I wonder whether this is why

Speaker 2 we see consistent winners in the world of startups and in the world of business. And in some ways, maybe in the world of life too.

Speaker 2 You end up with, you know, the Matthew principle, to those who have everything, more will be given. To those who have nothing, more will be taken.

Speaker 2 The Bible. Yeah.
And it's true in everything. It's true in compounding, in wealth.
It's true in

Speaker 2 astrophysics, in the size of stars and black holes. You know, almost all of the gains, almost all of the mass accrues to a very small number.
It's the same in rivers, in geology. It's the same in

Speaker 2 business, right? Like

Speaker 2 being number one is 10 times better than being number two, which is 10 times better than being number three. And being number 100 is basically, unless the market's insanely huge, but like dead.
So,

Speaker 2 yeah, I think

Speaker 2 understanding what is it that I'm actually trying to get toward. A perfect example of this.
I've been through 15 failed relationships so far. I really know what I don't want.
It's like, great.

Speaker 2 What about what you do want? What do you want?

Speaker 2 Yeah, because it is important to know what the red flags are, but the only reason for avoiding red flags, whether it's in business or in your personal life, the only reason for avoiding red flags is to expedite you getting green flags.

Speaker 2 Like, don't make the gain be avoiding red flags.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I think what's happening a little bit with people that say they've learned so much from failure is

Speaker 1 it goes back to the pain thing. It's like

Speaker 1 they realized how much they can sort of personally overcome the suffering of a failure.

Speaker 1 One takes away, I think, the fear of future failures. It's like, okay, I know what that is.
I've I've been through that.

Speaker 1 And, um, and it sort of broadens that, that emotional tolerance going forwards. And, you know, ultimately probably makes you more resilient in a way.

Speaker 2 But it also dampens down the pain of having to deal with the failure.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Right. You're like, oh, fuck.
I had to eat shit there. But I learned a lesson.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 Well, you know, at least I learned a lesson.

Speaker 1 Yeah, right. You try to take that positive from it.

Speaker 2 Yes. The same.

Speaker 2 My friend passed and that sucked. And I had to do this eulogy and that also sucked.
And it was in front of loads of people, and that made it even harder.

Speaker 2 And I was struggling, and that made it, but I learned a lot about myself, and I got to expand my, you know, there's ways that we try and alchemize even the most difficult situations

Speaker 2 to become that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's well said.

Speaker 1 The

Speaker 1 yeah, I mean, look, I think whatever, whatever can be done to make people have

Speaker 1 like a lower fear of failures is probably good. So

Speaker 1 I'm not out here like, you know, bashing the failure energy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 I think.

Speaker 1 But I do think you learn more from these unique successes than... And the one thing I reflect on is WOOOOP almost failed a lot of times.

Speaker 1 Like we really almost ran out of money a few times in the history of the company.

Speaker 1 In particular, about six years into the company, like we were right on the verge of bankruptcy. And I think a lot about if the company had failed then, like what would have my lesson been?

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 it almost certainly would have been to have been less ambitious with the technology,

Speaker 1 to have gone to market sooner with something that was like less cutting edge,

Speaker 1 to be mass market faster rather than working with athletes. You know,

Speaker 1 a lot of sort of, to be honest, the feedback that I got from people who rejected the business,

Speaker 1 I would have taken those as the lessons. But in turn, actually,

Speaker 1 when we did ultimately become successful, those were the reasons we were successful.

Speaker 2 But the line is so tight, right? I mean, yes, another 5% of cash flow, another 10% of cash flow, maybe even less. Yeah, and you'd have eaten shit, and that would have been the takeaway.
This is

Speaker 2 such a good point.

Speaker 2 Retrospectively trying to take

Speaker 2 lessons

Speaker 2 from

Speaker 2 someone who had a close

Speaker 2 to

Speaker 2 a victory that was at least in part dependent on something like timing on something like luck on something like first mover or early mover advantage uh on the stars aligning i mean of the four traits that you said earlier on luck was one of them which you can largely with consistency uh and like a high work rate can you can almost create your own luck in in many ways But

Speaker 2 external

Speaker 2 circumstances are largely out of your control. You can just sort of be in the best position possible.
But it ends up with people post hoc rationalizing loads of shit.

Speaker 2 And you go, I don't know if this is an evergreen lesson

Speaker 2 or if this is just a quirk of the specific time and space that you were in when this thing happened.

Speaker 2 I don't know what to make of this. I don't know.
And

Speaker 2 everybody only experiences life the way that they experienced experienced it. They don't get to go back and see the other ways that only

Speaker 2 a hair's width left or right could have happened, would have been different.

Speaker 2 So how universal are the lessons that you took away from this?

Speaker 2 If it was so close to not being the thing that happened, how can you say that the lesson that you took away from that was a universal rule? Because it was almost not. It was almost not by design.

Speaker 2 It was so close to it being a completely different sort of outcome.

Speaker 2 And especially if it's it's something, you know, existential, like the end of a relationship, or a friendship, or a life, or a business, or

Speaker 2 a trajectory that you are following on.

Speaker 2 It's really hard, even for us.

Speaker 1 Well, I think one takeaway is that it's helpful for us in general to take meaning from experiences.

Speaker 1 And so, whether it's a success or a failure,

Speaker 1 taking something from that is in turn a path towards growth. And so you can question whether or not the lesson could have been actually the exact opposite or completely different.

Speaker 1 But by taking a lesson, you are in turn feeling like you're growing.

Speaker 2 Well, you're also training yourself to be the sort of person who reflects on their experiences.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and reflecting and having a growth mindset. Like these are things that are

Speaker 1 just enormously useful in your life.

Speaker 1 I mean, one other way to look at everything we just talked about is through the lens of sports. Like,

Speaker 1 there's so many examples of what you were describing in sports: of like this,

Speaker 1 the most recent example is with Rory McElroy winning the Masters. And Rory's been a friend now for like, you know, seven or eight years.
He was one of the first big golfers to wear whoop.

Speaker 1 And so, I got to know him well.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 that final round at the Masters was like every version of

Speaker 1 like a human experiencing,

Speaker 1 you know, like this emotional roller coaster and such highs and lows. I mean, he hit shots in that round that he's the only person on the planet that can hit, right?

Speaker 1 Like on the 15th hole, he hits this like sweeping seven-iron, like 200 yards to five feet.

Speaker 1 And then, you know,

Speaker 1 on the 13th hole, he hit a shot shot from 80 yards that an amateur golfer would put on the green. And so

Speaker 1 at moments during that round, not just the tournament, just that one round, like he was the very best golfer in the world by far. And he was a complete amateur.

Speaker 1 And he had to go through these huge ups and downs to like, you know, overcome what was this painful 14-year trauma that he essentially was experiencing of winning the career grand slam and winning one more major.

Speaker 1 And there's this amazing photo at the end of, you know, the moment he's won and he's sort of released his putter. And his putter is like, you know, because it's a photo, just sort of frozen above him.

Speaker 1 And what it looks like is gravity has just flipped.

Speaker 1 And you can just feel the weight that's come off of this man for having to deal with this, you know, essential, essentially like trauma for 11 years.

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Speaker 2 Who else? Rory is one of them, but who else are some of the athletes that you've got to spend time with and you just think, holy shit, this person's

Speaker 2 mindset, their approach to the game is a different level?

Speaker 1 There's a lot of common themes amongst the world's best athletes. athletes.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 Michael Phelps and Cristiano Ronaldo and Patrick Mahomes and Rory.

Speaker 1 I've spent a lot of time around these guys and

Speaker 1 there's a certain intensity that burns inside them that is

Speaker 1 hard to fake.

Speaker 1 Like you can kind of feel it even when you're chilling. Ronaldo is probably the most exaggerated example of that that I've ever felt.

Speaker 2 How so?

Speaker 1 Just you can feel a drive, like you can feel a certain energy. You know, people,

Speaker 1 everyone kind of gives off an energy. And depending on how healthy you are in a given day or how good you're feeling, maybe your energy is stronger or less strong.
But like

Speaker 1 his, the energy that he gives off is one of real drive. And there's like an intensity burning there that you can't fake.
Like you can just feel it. And

Speaker 1 I think for a lot of these guys, there's a cost that comes with that that we, the fans, don't see. Like you don't see the

Speaker 1 cost of having to be the first person at the practice facility every single day and cold plunging for hours afterwards and

Speaker 1 the time away from the family and the sacrifices and all these other areas of life. I mean, it is very inspiring when you really get a close-up look at it and you realize just like what a grind it is.

Speaker 1 Like, it is such a grind. You see the goals and you see the master's jacket, but

Speaker 1 you don't see the grind and the pain and the injuries and like the

Speaker 1 time that they're not on camera. And there's something about it that's both inspiring and also you're like, yeah, maybe I wouldn't want to do that.
Intimidating. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, this is, you've activated one of my trap cards. And

Speaker 2 the question of what is the price that people pay to be someone that you admire

Speaker 2 has been

Speaker 2 one of the most compelling

Speaker 2 ever since I started, since I grew up being an adult infant,

Speaker 2 started to be a little bit more of a grown-up, I guess, intellectually.

Speaker 2 It's one of the questions I've been fascinated with to look at

Speaker 2 what's it like to be that person? You want to be that person? You want to be Rory McElroy, do Okay, let me explain all of the prices that he's had to pay to be Rory McElroy.

Speaker 2 You like the look of Patrick Mahomes or Michael Jordan? Perfect example. Fuck the, you know,

Speaker 2 the last dance.

Speaker 2 Still now

Speaker 2 at, what is he, probably 50, something like that? Don't know how old he is. Sorry if he's in his 40s, but yeah, like 50, 50s.

Speaker 1 Doesn't look happy.

Speaker 2 A man who is tormented by drive and perfection and obsession.

Speaker 2 He was the greatest?

Speaker 1 Okay, but

Speaker 2 that's the price that you need to pay. Elon was asked on Lex's show three years ago, said,

Speaker 2 He says something like, How are you doing? And he takes a little moment and he goes, most people think they would want to be me. They don't want to be me.
They don't know. They don't understand.

Speaker 2 My mind is a storm. He's the richest guy on the planet.
Sending rockets to space.

Speaker 2 building world-changing cars. He's on stage in Japan doing robot dances and shared, fathering a million children.

Speaker 1 He's actually easier to compare to some professional athletes than any other business leader.

Speaker 2 How so?

Speaker 1 In just that it's clear that

Speaker 1 he's got a drive that he's tormented by and he's willing to sacrifice everything else for it. And you see that with the world's best athletes.

Speaker 2 Well, the thing with

Speaker 1 at least

Speaker 2 The problem with looking at anybody through the lens of a narrow pursuit, like the success in business or the success in the sport, is that you only see the one vector that they've channeled their outputs into and you don't see any of the other fissures that their costs leaked out of, right?

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 2 what if this guy hasn't had sex with his wife in like two years?

Speaker 2 What if

Speaker 2 they're drugging themselves to go to sleep and stimulating themselves to wake up in the morning? What if their relationship with their father or their mother is just non-existent?

Speaker 2 What if if they hate themselves? What if they can't bear to look at their body in the mirror? You know, all of these things happen and you go, okay,

Speaker 2 but they're the great, the greatest, they're the best. Yeah.
Would you want that? Is that what you want?

Speaker 2 Because you don't, as you said earlier on, it's kind of stupid to just look at one element, either of a business or of a person and say, I want, yeah, I really want Rory McElroy's masters thing.

Speaker 2 The not being able to sleep on the nighttime because he's obsessing about that shot he missed. I don't really like the idea of that so much.
But the green jacket, that sounds great.

Speaker 2 It's like you don't get to piece this person together. Someone is a whole, right?

Speaker 2 His level of obsession, I'm totally like just throwing shade at Rory's mental state, but I imagine his level of obsession and inability to let go of things and, you know,

Speaker 2 is the reason that he's got to that. It's not some weird bug on a on the side of the code that makes him Rory McElroy.
It's a feature that is a part of his performance.

Speaker 2 And yeah, this question of what is the price people pay to be someone that you admire is fucking endlessly interesting to me.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and I think athletes have gotten more

Speaker 1 introspective. Like I actually, Rory is extremely

Speaker 1 thoughtful and he's gone through phases of reading books on the Stoics and meditating and all sorts of things. I think

Speaker 1 a lot of athletes end up being more introspective because they get into visualization, which becomes sort of the gateway to

Speaker 1 meditation, intuition, these sorts of different

Speaker 1 levels of

Speaker 1 self-discovery. And then I think there's plenty of really capable athletes who

Speaker 1 don't actually go that deep inwards and they don't really analyze the how it works as much as know that it works. And they just go.

Speaker 2 I had, who's I talking to this? I can't remember who it was.

Speaker 2 Cultivated stupidity, we called it.

Speaker 2 That

Speaker 2 Matt Fraser, good example of this, I think, actually.

Speaker 2 So, Matt, in Ben Bergeron's book, Chasing Excellence, he tells this story about Matt was an engineering student, I think, and he would make himself wrote, memorize entire textbooks word for word, and he would then sort of play them back in his head, or maybe he was writing them out.

Speaker 2 If he missed one word, he would just make himself go back to the start. So, this guy was very, very smart and very, very driven and very, very obsessed.
But there is a kind of

Speaker 2 boneheadedness and almost simplicity that you need to turn up and do 90 minutes of zone two work. Because there's got to be a better way.
Like, I just need to sit on the rowing machine for 90 minutes.

Speaker 2 It's zone two. I'm not going to go that hard.
You just want me at 135 BPM. Really?

Speaker 2 That's what I'm supposed to do? Yeah, it is. You need to go in and have this.
Just follow the plan. Don't overthink it.
Don't spend too much time ruminating.

Speaker 2 Can you chill out? What's your recovery like? Are you able to sit on the couch and and play Xbox after a big training session?

Speaker 2 And yeah, we often celebrate a really good work ethic and very rarely celebrate a good rest ethic. And

Speaker 2 both of those are a skill.

Speaker 1 The rest thing was kind of the unlock for getting into all these pro athletes and building those relationships was this idea that you can now measure recovery.

Speaker 1 And one thing that I was really surprised by, but now makes sense kind of knowing the cast of characters is like amongst the very best athletes, they're actually willing to experiment a lot.

Speaker 1 Like they're kind of always looking for what is that additional way I can get a little edge.

Speaker 1 And that's one of the things that separates, I think, the very best from, from just like a great professional athlete is this like drive towards experimentation.

Speaker 1 And it's part of the reason that in the early days of building this company, like

Speaker 1 someone like LeBron James or Michael Phelps was willing to wear whoop.

Speaker 2 Let's see if it gave them an edge.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. One of the things that you were talking about earlier on, the sort of fear of failure, this, you know, obsession with detail, but not beyond a point.

Speaker 2 I'm sure this is something that you consider the sort of health anxiety that's downstream from the perils of over-optimization.

Speaker 2 Being able to see why, you know, God, I didn't sleep very well last night, says my whoop. I feel kind of okay, but then I get in my head about that.
And I didn't hit my 10,000 steps today.

Speaker 2 There's a fucking step tracker on there now.

Speaker 2 How do you come to think about

Speaker 2 using data to assist, to improve people, but not to be an object like a taskmaster or a prison that people can get trapped in?

Speaker 1 I think first and foremost, we view WOOOOP as a tool that anyone

Speaker 1 can use. You know, we don't view it as

Speaker 1 your master. We view it as a tool that can make you healthier or live longer or perform better.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 the general sort of

Speaker 1 broad critique of

Speaker 1 is more knowledge better, I've always rejected. I mean, you can go back to the printing press and people being like, oh, we can't have the printing press.

Speaker 1 God forbid so many people have access to information. So I think in almost every stage of human history, this rejection of people having more knowledge is

Speaker 1 sort of a lazy analysis. Now,

Speaker 1 there's certain things from a technology design standpoint that we've done with that in mind. So I've never believed that having a screen on the product actually

Speaker 1 made it a better tool.

Speaker 1 And I've always thought that there's plenty of screens in the world.

Speaker 1 And do we really need one more screen that's giving you numbers that you're obsessing over and looking at and they're vibrating and alerting you?

Speaker 1 And so in many ways, we designed the product to disappear into the background and to be there when you needed it and to look at it when you it

Speaker 1 and for a product that people wear 24 7 it's actually remarkably unobtrusive you know it's not talking to you it's not beeping at you it's only going to vibrate if you want it to vibrate

Speaker 1 yeah if you want it to wake you up uh

Speaker 1 so

Speaker 1 yeah we've done we've done i think a lot of things for around the concept of have this be a tool that's in the background versus having it being a master that's trying to control you.

Speaker 2 Yeah, alas, I know that some people do struggle with that. Actually, there's a, I can give you an idea for my friend George.

Speaker 2 And this is specifically from when he was wearing whoop and focusing on improving his sleep.

Speaker 2 He wished that there was a way that you could set, and I know that you guys do a weekly review, a monthly review, and a viewer review as well, but that all notifications could be turned off except for a check-in on a weekly basis, or that you could hide your data from yourself until a particular day of the week to sort of interrupt your ability to be able to see.

Speaker 2 I'm aware that journal, like you need to do that on a daily basis, it restricts a lot of the turn fucking activity on. Like, how am I going to do that?

Speaker 2 But I do think, you know, the general position he's trying to get himself to is to focus on signal, not noise, and a daily check-in on daily metrics. A lot of the time is

Speaker 2 there's a lot of noise in that.

Speaker 2 If you look at your week-long trend, the bad Monday doesn't look so bad because it's spread across seven days if it's Tuesday and you look at your Monday you go I might as well kill myself like this is horrendous

Speaker 1 yeah and look I think you

Speaker 1 well first of all the concept of

Speaker 1 hiding data, that is actually one thing that we did develop against because we would have these really exaggerated examples.

Speaker 1 Like imagine you're an Olympian and you're training for four years for one day.

Speaker 1 It turned out for the most part, the Olympians wanted to know how recovered they were, but they didn't necessarily want to see how recovered they were.

Speaker 1 So we created a toggle. This actually exists in the app today

Speaker 1 where you can literally have your data collect, but it'll hide your recovery score and your sleep score. Oh.

Speaker 1 And so

Speaker 1 in a sense, we built the George feature

Speaker 1 for Olympians a long time ago. Now, the point about it being for a week, I mean, what I would just say is just don't open the app for a week, right?

Speaker 1 And keep the thing charged because it's going to store data.

Speaker 1 Now that Woop has 14-day battery life, too, like you can.

Speaker 2 How long can it store stuff without being connected through Bluetooth?

Speaker 1 30 days.

Speaker 2 Oh, wow. Okay.
So you could actually just run the sucker for ages and not even have it connected to your phone. Yeah.

Speaker 2 That would be a solution. That's a slightly more low-tech solution, like just disconnecting.

Speaker 1 If you're uploading a week of data, it might take a couple hours to upload.

Speaker 1 Sick.

Speaker 2 What's the Hertz frequency now on a nighttime?

Speaker 1 It's a little variable, but it's anywhere between probably 25 and 50. Right.

Speaker 1 So in terms of the number of times we're sampling a second.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's interesting. I've been digging into sleep stuff.
I did an at-home sleep study, which was pretty interesting.

Speaker 2 Gnalia, I had the

Speaker 2 diodes on the face. I had the tubes coming out.
I had this thing. This is pretty interesting.
It's a real getup. Oh, yeah, I look great.

Speaker 2 They put a sensor on your sileus on the outside of your leg, outside of your calf. And this is super interesting.

Speaker 2 People who've got restless leg syndrome move their legs a lot when they sleep, but you can have restless leg syndrome and not move your legs.

Speaker 2 So what this sensor does is it detects whether or not your brain is sending a signal to your legs, but below the threshold that moves them, but above the threshold that it's nothing.

Speaker 2 And that's still classed as a minor form of restless leg syndrome, even if you're not moving your legs.

Speaker 2 Because your brain is still saying, maybe we should do this, but it doesn't breach whatever particular line there is where you would start moving around. Don't have restless leg syndrome.

Speaker 2 That was pretty interesting.

Speaker 2 So you don't have that? No, I don't. I have REM-induced sleep apnea, which fucking sucks dick.

Speaker 2 So you bounce yourself in and out of REM a lot. You go REM to wake to wake to REM to wake.

Speaker 2 So I need to work on that.

Speaker 2 And then as soon as you learn about any apnic events, you then go down the rabbit hole of dentistry and biological dentistry and and you start to think about palate size and airway opening.

Speaker 2 And then you learn about how wind instrument players have no sleep apnea.

Speaker 2 So the new device, it seems, that one of the new devices that are good for apnea events, eight to 14 weeks of 15 minutes a day.

Speaker 2 It sets a five by five, which to me, like given a sort of heavy weightlifting background. Yeah, five by five to me, slap bang in the middle of what I'm used to.

Speaker 2 And it's kind of like the reed from a saxophone, but without the saxophone attached to it, and it's got a lot of resistance in it. When you do a special

Speaker 2 exercise, blowing very hard through this thing, the original study was done on marching band

Speaker 2 performers, and they found that none of the Horner Wind players had sleep apnea, and a lot of the others did. I said, well, there's got to be something to do with the way that they play.

Speaker 2 The only difference between these people is the way they play the instruments. And yeah, I think it was

Speaker 2 not an oboe. What's the other thing that's like an oboe? A didgeridoo.
The original study was done in a fucking didgeridoo sleep study.

Speaker 1 That seems like kind of a breakthrough study.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it was, dude. So

Speaker 2 I think this is going to be, this is real frontline stuff from Andy Galpin and Matthew Walker and the

Speaker 2 some guys I'm working with. So you're now going to start doing this.
Yes. So I've got, it should be in the air.
I should be arriving this week. And between

Speaker 2 mouth tape and nasal dilators and not sleeping on my back and using

Speaker 2 tracking and all this other stuff. But one of the big things is going to be this.

Speaker 2 So, yeah, I should just learn to play the saxophone. That'd be way easier.
And I'd be functionally, you know, music.

Speaker 1 Saxophone's cool. I played sax when I was in like fifth grade, not particularly well, but.

Speaker 2 Well, maybe your lack of sleep apnea is contributed to by your brief stint as a saxophonist.

Speaker 1 I do think there's an element of

Speaker 1 if you can't be great at something, it's kind of like dangerous to be okay at it.

Speaker 1 Like, there's part of me that feels like if I was even a mediocre musician, like, I'd be playing at you know, the local bar, and that would

Speaker 1 have, yeah, I'd have no entrepreneurial anything. I'd just sort of have been this, like,

Speaker 1 you know, dude. You certainly want to pick your pursuits, playing a bad saxophone.

Speaker 2 You do want to pick your pursuits, but that's also you know, the drive that you were talking about from Rory and from other guys that you've worked with, and also the one that you see in yourself

Speaker 2 very much doesn't allow you to do things that you're not particularly good at. At least I find this.

Speaker 2 I was talking to a friend who's working with a coach and the coach said, I need to take up a pursuit.

Speaker 2 What would you like to do? Anything? Pick something that you think would be cool for you to do. And he said, oh, um, watercolors.
Watercolors sounds like a cool thing to do.

Speaker 2 You know, wanted a outside of his high-powered, degenerate business, like pursuit that he could do.

Speaker 1 Watercolors.

Speaker 2 She goes, okay. I mean, you you get yourself some watercolor stuff, but there's one stipulation about your pursuit of watercolors.
You can't try to get better. And he was like, oh, fuck.

Speaker 2 Like, she just wanted him to just play, to just like be in the joy of doing watercolors. She's like, because I know what you're going to do.

Speaker 2 You're going to go on YouTube and you're going to start watching videos and you're going to start refining your technique.

Speaker 2 And then you're going to find the person that made the YouTube videos and find out they've got a course online. Then you're going to see they've got a retreat in Costa Rica.

Speaker 2 And before I know it, you have another business that is about yourself or another aggressive pursuit.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 that idea of you're going to try to do a thing, but you're not going to try to be the best at it. And in many ways, your progress toward becoming better in it is only ever going to be emergent.

Speaker 2 It's only ever going to be bottom up, not top down. You're sort of not going to dictate yourself into betterness.
You're just going to practice yourself into enjoyment. And

Speaker 2 I may try and use this as an excuse for why I have a woefully low pickleball rating.

Speaker 2 I don't know. You don't understand.
I'm trying to, I'm just in the flow, dude. You may be a better pickleball player, but I'm actually more flowy than you are.

Speaker 2 But yeah, I thought that was, I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but I remember him telling me and thinking it was interesting as a framing.

Speaker 1 That is interesting. Although it had me thinking that there are things in my life that I like to do or have liked to do just because I was getting a little better, but I wasn't obsessed with.

Speaker 1 You know what I mean? Like I played in a soccer league from the ages of like 25 to 32. And I was, you know, there were some sports I was athletically, I would say, more gifted at.

Speaker 1 I wouldn't say soccer was ever one of them, but I just enjoyed it so much, like running around like a total, you know, goof kid with refs and 90-minute games and whatever.

Speaker 1 You know, I'm, I would say, an okay cook and I like to cook steaks and stuff from time to time, but it doesn't, I don't, I don't necessarily feel bothered that I'm not making a better steak than, you know, filling the blank down the road here in Austin.

Speaker 1 Like you can, I think you can pursue some of these things with just an eye towards getting better. And I actually think there are i think there's something

Speaker 1 um for people older in life picking up particularly activities that they can get better at because there's there's sort of this comfort with doing the thing that you did in college or you did on some high school team and you do like you do like a bad version of it as you're older and you always think about oh like i wish i was this younger

Speaker 1 But if you can get into lifting weights, for example, and all of a sudden you see the numbers going up a little bit over time or,

Speaker 1 you know, yoga or pilates like i think that's great and you don't holistic pursuit you don't need to become a yoga instructor but like you know progress i think progress matters it it does and i wonder you know this sort of balance between

Speaker 2 yoga is a really really good example because there is no such thing as winning right there is no such thing as winning at yoga there is getting better and there is there is progress it's hard to keep score too yes yes so for the perennially metric obsessed how golf golf you can keep keep score.

Speaker 2 Baseball, pickleball, you know, there's a literal rating next to your fucking podcasting, YouTube. You know, you know

Speaker 2 where you're ranked, you know, a business. Oh, well, you know how you're on your quarter on quarter, but where are we, you know.

Speaker 1 But I do believe that you can't, you can't, you have to be careful how many

Speaker 1 desires you have at the same time. Because that's essentially this contract with yourself

Speaker 1 to be

Speaker 1 unhappy until you get what you want.

Speaker 1 And you want to pick a couple lanes, ideally only one or two lanes where you're really all in.

Speaker 1 Because if you try to do too many things at once to be great at,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 you're not going to be great at all.

Speaker 2 James Clear's got this new fucking slamming insight, which is

Speaker 2 if you desire the life but not the lifestyle, you guarantee disappointment.

Speaker 2 So you want the outcome, but you're not prepared to do the things that get you toward the outcome. I love the idea of.

Speaker 1 That's been a theme of this conversation with the athletes and, you know, but

Speaker 2 I want to be in a band. Love the idea of playing on stage in front of thousands of people.
Okay, you need to be in a van, a very small van, playing butt fuck nowhere shows for a decade. Yeah.

Speaker 2 That's what, that is the lifestyle to get you to life.

Speaker 2 Do you want to do that?

Speaker 1 Yeah, you go to the Taylor Swift concert, but you don't see her training at 8 a.m., Singing her entire set list on a treadmill.

Speaker 2 I have seen videos of not Taylor Swift who is Miley Cyrus before the Super Bowl. Have you seen this video? No.
Epic, epic video.

Speaker 2 So I think Miley Cyrus performed at the half time in the Super Bowl not long ago, or maybe it's pretty sure it was Miley Cyrus. And she's on a treadmill singing.
And it's

Speaker 2 the sort of buildup. And she's just, you know, heart rate's going to be through that.
She would have won a whip. Heart rate's going to be through the roof.
And she's like building this thing out.

Speaker 2 And she's obviously trying to work out this energy, this sort of nervous, anxious energy. She's warming her body up.
She's warming.

Speaker 2 And yeah, it's crazy. You know, not too dissimilar way, my equivalent, the only equivalent I've got,

Speaker 2 going to do Rogan, like as you're on your way, you're driving from my house to Rogan's studio, it's 12 minutes.

Speaker 2 Should be longer. It'd be better if it was longer.
I should drive further away and then loop back around. That would make my life easier.

Speaker 2 And it very much does feel a little bit like sort of going through the player's tunnel towards like a pretty big match.

Speaker 1 Even though you're a little stressed out. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And there's, you know, you need solutions from that. So I've got a, and this is now the same thing I've used for every big episode, Peterson, Naval, Sam Harris, Rogan, whoever.

Speaker 2 You have a pre-match ritual.

Speaker 1 What is it?

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 wake up on time, regardless of how tired I am. So I don't let myself sleep in.
I would rather be up and in a good mood. Sleeping tends to put me in a bit of a bad mood.

Speaker 2 It makes me feel like my day started off on the back foot. So I want to kind of win the pillow.
I think about winning, like owning the pillow.

Speaker 1 It's a good name for a book.

Speaker 2 Win the pillow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I feel like I've,

Speaker 2 it's a big predictor for me of how well the rest of the day goes. So get up, do my usual morning routine, walk, journal, breathwork, meditate, read, go to the gym, train, like moderately hard.

Speaker 2 I've done it too hard previously and I end up crashing partway through the episode. So that was a lesson from failure that I only ever needed to learn once.

Speaker 2 One coffee, one one coffee, no more than one coffee.

Speaker 2 One coffee max.

Speaker 2 Breakfast, but no carbs. So typically eggs, bacon, sausage, something like that.

Speaker 2 Then go back, any notes, whatever it is that I'm reviewing. And then the sort of final hour is just to listen to really great music, have a little sing-along.

Speaker 2 If I'm going to have a shave, I'm going to have a shower, if I'm going to like, you know.

Speaker 2 whatever sort, whatever I'm going to wear out.

Speaker 2 Do that. And then get in the car and then on the way there, more good music, having a little sing along.
So maybe Miley Cyrus had it right all.

Speaker 2 I didn't get on a treadmill and start belting out Miley Cyrus songs.

Speaker 2 It's relatively stripped back.

Speaker 2 What it, at least my sort of current working theory is it's a combination of all of the things that feel like home to me that are very comfortable, the things that I do on a daily basis.

Speaker 2 It's the perfect morning when chaos doesn't occur. And that happens maybe only once every week.
to me where I get the full run of all of them perfectly done without...

Speaker 2 Fuck, I could take a phone call in the middle of this. Oh, shit, what's happened with the most recent upload? Whatever it is that goes on.

Speaker 2 But it's not so

Speaker 2 novel that it's sort of disquieting to your system. It's like this is comfortable and this is comfortable and this is normal and this is whatever.

Speaker 1 Hey, there's there's stresses in that experience that you've walked through.

Speaker 1 I mean, that sounds like a great routine in general.

Speaker 2 It's awesome. It's awesome.
I get to midday and I'm just locked in.

Speaker 2 I'll usually have my optimal Newtonic consumption is like one can en route in, one as I'm starting, and then I'm like, fucking, I'm at 30,000 feet just through.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's it, dude. I, I can, if I go more than about one an hour for three hours, I start to fucking hear colors and see sounds.
It ends up being good, but a little bit activating.

Speaker 2 And the mindfulness that you want to just be able to sit back and give things a little bit of room to breathe.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's, it's interesting that I love learning about people's pre-game rituals as well.

Speaker 2 I know baseball, one of the most superstitious ritualistic sports, maybe the most, I would guess, in perhaps all of sports, because it's so iterative, right? And it's so replicable.

Speaker 2 So you see players that will tap the bat on both feet, undo and redo each glove. It's like, why?

Speaker 2 They haven't come undone, but it's all just part of this, you know, very, very consistent schedule of how they... What about you? What's a morning look like?

Speaker 2 I guess you've got a six-week old so fucking chaos i imagine

Speaker 1 yeah i mean

Speaker 1 one thing i was just reflecting on and listening to your uh very healthy day is like

Speaker 1 i realize there aren't that many days in my life over the course of a year where i'm like oh today i have a big blank You know, it's almost like it feels like every day I go into

Speaker 1 it trying to have a similar output and a similar sort of,

Speaker 1 you know, game plan, you know.

Speaker 2 Avoiding that roller coaster.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 so in terms of my morning routine, wake up,

Speaker 1 shower, work out with a trainer,

Speaker 1 sauna, cold plunge, meditate,

Speaker 1 breakfast,

Speaker 1 off to work. I mean, that's kind of like the perfect morning for me.

Speaker 1 And how how often do you hit that? That's three days a week when I'm in Boston. And then,

Speaker 1 you know, the Tuesday and the Thursday, I'll try to work out. So that's Monday, Wednesday, Friday.
And then like the Tuesday and the Thursday, I'll try to do something on my own in the morning.

Speaker 1 Or for the last six weeks, it's been more like family time in the morning. So I'll have like breakfast with little, little Tommy and my wife and

Speaker 1 hang out with the little guy, which is pretty incredible.

Speaker 1 And in a way, like it's interesting, you're spending time with your newborn has a similar physiological effect to meditating, at least it does for me.

Speaker 1 And I meditate every day, so that's become a huge part of my life and just

Speaker 1 being able to manage everything that comes at you. But I find if you have a great first couple hours of the day,

Speaker 1 it just makes the rest of the day and everything that gets thrown at you so much more manageable.

Speaker 1 Like most of my, most of my professional, like work life is just things coming at me.

Speaker 1 Like I don't know what problem is going to walk into my door that day, but it is a lot of sort of managing problems.

Speaker 2 Very much think about starting the day on the front foot. Yeah.
And I think that's a good way to, to think about it.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And in a way, you start, I've also kind of started to think of the day starting at you know, 9 p.m.
the day before, which is like, what's your sleep routine?

Speaker 1 And I wear blue light blocking glasses, which I love. You know, you don't want to get into a fight with your wife before bed.
You want to have like, you know.

Speaker 2 You look like a nerd. Shut up, wife.

Speaker 1 Well, I've gotten her to wear them too. Unfortunately, Layley's a team player in all of my health optimizations.

Speaker 1 I haven't gotten off of the devices. I would say that's probably,

Speaker 1 I don't know if that's a frontier actually I'm ever going to conquer because I'm still optimizing so much around

Speaker 1 being like a productive entrepreneur and CEO. And you kind of,

Speaker 1 you know, such a global

Speaker 1 solution.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And so I will look at my phone kind of up until I go to bed.
And, um,

Speaker 1 but, you know, things like red light in your bedroom and

Speaker 1 warm shower before bed some nights, a little magnesium.

Speaker 1 If, if I feel a little tense, maybe I'll have some melatonin.

Speaker 1 Read a book. You know, those things, those, that's a good way to start tomorrow.

Speaker 2 One of the worst things and this was a

Speaker 2 lesson learned from going to bed at four in the morning a couple of times a week for a decade and a half was

Speaker 2 realizing that tomorrow is ruined before tomorrow has even begun there's a special kind of hell there where you go fuck it's 5 a.m i haven't slept like this morning i thankfully today hasn't been ruined i had a really great day but uh my body just decided to wake me up at three in the morning

Speaker 2 fuck you dude got up like right okay i'm gonna do all of the things that cbti CBTI tells you to do, so I'm not gonna get, I'm gonna stay in bed. All right, you want to be awake? Be awake.

Speaker 2 You're gonna have to walk around, you're gonna have to look, you're gonna have to keep your eyes open, but your body doesn't want to do that either. I'm like, well, pick, right?

Speaker 2 Would you want to be asleep? No, okay, would you want to be awake? No, I don't want that either. Like, you are a petulant child, sleep brain.
Anyway,

Speaker 1 that is actually hell. Yeah,

Speaker 2 it's it sucks. And uh,

Speaker 2 I get back to bed at

Speaker 2 4:30 a.m., 4:45 a.m.

Speaker 2 Oh my God,

Speaker 2 do I try and drug myself into sleep? Because I could, but that means that when I get up to train at seven, I'm going to be pressing the brake and the accelerator at the same time.

Speaker 2 I'm like, okay, so let's say I took an ambient three hours ago. I'm like, right, okay.
So I've just

Speaker 1 ambient three hours ago. Yeah, that's going to affect your workout.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. I felt great this morning, dude.
I, maybe the ambient

Speaker 2 Newtonic combo. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I felt, and then I went and did this photo shoot with your guys. So I trained twice before midday.
I think had probably less than five hours of sleep.

Speaker 2 I feel fantastic. Have you seen that meme? I post this meme all the time.

Speaker 2 The meme of the different

Speaker 2 hours of sleep and the way that this guy looks. And one hour of sleep is just like a shadow with his face falling off.

Speaker 2 And it sort of goes all the way up to eight hours where he sort of feels like a god. And then, but for some reason, six and seven hours of sleep, the guy's face is falling off too.

Speaker 2 But two hours of sleep, the guy's like transcendent. There's something about two hours of sleep.
I get the sense that it's one full sleep cycle, that it's one full 90-minute.

Speaker 1 You're still in a nap.

Speaker 2 Yeah, there's one full 90-minute cycle, and you're going to eat shit at 3 p.m. that day.
But up until midday or so, you're like, dude, I fluked it last night. Like, I dance through that minefield.

Speaker 2 I'm going to, and then it gets to 2 p.m. and you go, oh, no, oh, it's hitting me.

Speaker 1 Do you, do you travel overseas a lot or over time zones?

Speaker 2 It was last year a lot.

Speaker 1 I do it all the time. And i've i find i've i've gotten pretty good at it one um

Speaker 1 two great hacks for it are one not eating at all on planes so i'll never eat on a plane for even if you take your own food yeah i'm not gonna eat period like 14 hours to dubai or something not not eating yep and

Speaker 1 uh and i drink a ton of hydrogen water

Speaker 1 what's your hydrogen water of choice i use this uh bottle called echo go let's fucking go dude Is that your thing?

Speaker 2 They're fire. Have you got the new one, the square one? Or have you got the old, slightly older one that's cylindrical?

Speaker 1 I think I have the older one.

Speaker 2 The new Echo Flask is set. It's got this, this new one's got a screen on the side, and there's an app that comes with it.
Everything needs an app, apparently.

Speaker 1 Yeah, mine doesn't have an app. Cool.

Speaker 2 This new one, so the new one is fucking sick. But yeah, dude, hydrogen water is...
So if I could...

Speaker 1 I was saying this.

Speaker 1 I picked that up from Gary Brecca, and he's like all about hydrogen water. And turns out he's totally right.

Speaker 2 Electrolytes too?

Speaker 1 I'll pound electrolytes, but I won't do it in my hydrogen water echo go. Yep.

Speaker 2 No, I mean that circulating that through would be a bad idea.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I was with Gary, I was at the health optimization summit here in Austin this weekend. And I went to, there was a dinner for the speakers.
It was like a meetup or whatever for the speakers.

Speaker 2 And it was Mark Sisson, Gary Brecker, Ben Greenfield, Max Lugavir, Dr. Dom, the world's leading biological dentist, like every

Speaker 2 different

Speaker 2 unspit, Dr. Stephen Gundry, like

Speaker 2 some very forward-clicking. Yeah, it was fun, man.
And I'm the absolutely the token stupid person in the room. And I'm just sort of listening to stuff that I'm like, that sounds, maybe that's true.

Speaker 2 That sounds plausible. That sounds plausible.
That sounds like it might be fun. But one of the things that pretty much everybody zeroed in on was hydrogen water.

Speaker 2 And if I was saying this at the start of the year, oh, if I could make some bets sort of on the roulette chip table of health, health.

Speaker 2 I would have done

Speaker 2 three or four years ago, I would have said four-stage reverse osmosis water filtration for drinking.

Speaker 2 I think everyone's really worried about the municipal water standards and water quality and what's in your drinking water.

Speaker 2 I would have said

Speaker 2 sleep trackers and liquid-cooled mattress toppers, probably six or seven years ago. I would have said that those would be.

Speaker 2 And now I think hydrogen water, including hydrogen baths and breathing molecular hydrogen, that's a little bit more like a flask that's 200 bucks and will last you until you break it.

Speaker 2 Pretty good investment. It's like pretty accessible to most people.

Speaker 2 Redoing your entire bath so that you can have hydrogen water pumped in and dermally absorb it through your skin. That's like a higher, higher barrier.

Speaker 1 And that machine, I think, is like 100 grand or something. But the I actually shout out again to Gary Brackey.

Speaker 1 Like I did one of his hydrogen baths at his place in Miami and I felt incredible the next day. I mean, it's a very,

Speaker 1 it's a very unique

Speaker 1 mechanism for improving health. And I'm surprised that it's not more mainstream.

Speaker 1 But when something's that effective and expensive, it just requires a little bit of like technology, so to speak, to enable it to access it.

Speaker 2 Well, you've got to, the problem with hydrogen, I think. Like me talking about fucking hydrogen.
I spent half an afternoon with Gary Brecker and I talked about hydrogen.

Speaker 1 That's actually a meme, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I think the problem, but this is a commercial insight, is

Speaker 2 at the bottom end, there's no way,

Speaker 2 except Echo actually have patented their bottle and their technology, but you can get hydrogen into water relatively inexpensively, and it's not patented.

Speaker 2 No one can patent putting hydrogen into water. The levels that you do it to, and the functionality, and the durability, and the battery life of the device, all of that stuff is.

Speaker 2 So, at the bottom end, it's unprotectable, largely, and at the top end, it's not accessible. So, I think you have this weird weird market where you go, well,

Speaker 2 what's the incentive to push on the bottom end, given that anybody, anybody can do this?

Speaker 2 There's no protection. Not anybody can build the device that's on your wrist, but pretty much anybody can make a comparable device

Speaker 2 at the bottom end. And then at the top end, it's just so fucking expensive and hard to get.

Speaker 2 And what you don't want to do, the other thing is even if you had a hundred grand, I think you can get like a...

Speaker 2 equivalent one for maybe 20 or something from Echo, but you also need to have water filtration in your house because if the water's not of good quality, you're pushing Austin Municipal.

Speaker 2 I had an email this morning from Echo because they're going to send out some sort of a unit to do hydrogen baths in my house. And I was like, oh, I've heard about worries to do with water quality.

Speaker 2 And it's like, oh, give us your postcode. We'll, area code, we'll tell you

Speaker 2 whether your water's up to scratch. And said, oh, no, you've got 17 markers that are outside the advisory.

Speaker 1 Oh, wow.

Speaker 2 For whatever it is that we would do. And they've just been up, dink, dink, dink, just searched it online.
I'm like, oh, fuck.

Speaker 1 So, yeah, it should be a little service, too, they provide.

Speaker 2 Oh, we'll do a survey. Yeah, that'd be sick.

Speaker 1 Or like, have, have that be built into their app. It's like, you know, check out your water.

Speaker 2 Buy with a slight disadvantage there. It's just going to create a number of reasons for people not to buy your product.

Speaker 2 Although, for the drinking stuff, I would go, I mean, everybody knows this, but you need to watch your water quality. It's pointless hydrogenating your water if it's full of all sorts of bullshit.

Speaker 2 So I think four-stage reverse osmosis, something or any kind of Berkey filtration, Matrux, something similar, or plumbing in underneath is like, that's the first step.

Speaker 1 I think there's still probably an opportunity to create that high-end experience at a more accessible price point, even if it's not highly patentable. I'm surprised that there isn't a brand around it.

Speaker 2 What was the second thing? So you said, don't eat on planes, drink lots of hydrogen water, pound the electrolytes. Yeah.
Was there a second hack for

Speaker 2 travel?

Speaker 1 No, the two that I found were unlocks were don't eat on planes and drink hydrogen water. Okay.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And you could add this as a third, which is when you get into the right time zone, go to bed on the right time zone.

Speaker 1 I also try to avoid naps at all costs because I feel like naps when you're jet lagged are a trap. Next thing, you know, you're asleep for four and a half hours and you're like, oh, am I waking up?

Speaker 1 Is this

Speaker 1 white knuckle it?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I did Australia toward the back end of last year and that was 14-hour time. I think you're supposed to have one supposed to.

Speaker 2 Whoever came up with the one-day for one-hour time change thing, dude, that's bullshit. No one has that much time to do stuff.
I was in Australia for two weeks.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. So the idea is you're going to be jet lagged for two weeks.

Speaker 2 Basically, that you should give yourself, you should account for one day per hour of time change.

Speaker 2 remember reading this online. I have no idea.

Speaker 1 Well, this is actually a very unwhooped point of view, but I think a lot of jet lag is psychological and that people start telling themselves they're jet lagged and they get kind of into this downward cycle and then they start drinking alcohol and napping and they just sort of do all these sort of things that are on a negative spiral.

Speaker 1 Whereas if you go in with a real positive attitude of like, I'm going to defeat jet lag out of the gates.

Speaker 2 I'm going to make it my bitch.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. But Australia, Australia hurt.
That was

Speaker 2 hard. That was a real, a real painful one.

Speaker 2 What should people expect from you over the next, apart from new child, dad life, presumably a change of wardrobe and body composition over the next couple of months.

Speaker 2 What else is coming up?

Speaker 1 Well, we recently launched

Speaker 1 the Whoop 5.0 and the MG. So that's all of our new hardware with WOOP.
It's got a much longer battery life and new features like around health span.

Speaker 1 So it'll tell you how old you are and your whoop age and what you can do to get younger.

Speaker 1 There's a whole feature that's around heart screening. So if you're someone who's worried about having AFib or

Speaker 1 you're talking to a cardiologist or you might need to talk to a cardiologist, there's a whole feature for that that's now medically cleared.

Speaker 1 We came out with blood pressure monitoring, which is pretty badass. So we're the first wearable to do that on a large scale.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, a lot of new technology that we just launched, which I'm pretty stoked about. In some ways, it's been

Speaker 1 13 years in the making. And

Speaker 1 in terms of me, I think it's, you know, trying to get a little better every day, trying to keep building the business.

Speaker 1 At some point, this is probably a company we'll take public, which is in itself another

Speaker 1 chapter, another challenge, another growth opportunity.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mentioned I was with your guys earlier on today, and

Speaker 2 I just had to bring up the fact that Stephen Bartlett got an advisory position, but he's got smaller forearms than me.

Speaker 2 And I thought that that was not necessarily relevant or important, but something of note. And I just, you know, I'm going to sort of leave that to linger in the air.
But dude, congratulations.

Speaker 2 You know, launching a human and a new product in the space of a couple of weeks is no, is no small feat. So yeah, it's awesome.
I've been a, you know, a huge fan of the product for forever.

Speaker 2 I was grandfathered into the monthly from the buy it once user.

Speaker 1 Oh, so you're a founding member? Yeah. Yeah, dude.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And then also apart.

Speaker 1 You must have a lot of recoveries.

Speaker 2 Yeah, like

Speaker 2 thousands, thousands and thousands,

Speaker 2 which is fun. And before that, I actually totally forgot about this, but I use SleepCycle.
you know that app

Speaker 2 it's an alarm it's kind of was it one of those things you stuck on your bed and like it was a just a phone app and you put your phone near your bed yeah um i use it as an an alarm but it also does a little bit of tracking stuff too uses the mic so it's like rustling around i guess it's real raw like rough stuff sort of um but yeah i've been in one form or another i've been tracking sleep for a decade now which is pretty crazy to think that i've got that much data but uh yeah dude i really appreciate what you do i think it's awesome the fact you're enabling these athletes and helping everyone everyone to realize just how much little sleep they're getting is cool.

Speaker 2 And I appreciate your mind as well. I think it's nice to see somebody that's committed to one thing and, yeah, limiting desires, whether they're personal or corporate, is pretty sick.

Speaker 2 So, really glad to meet you today.

Speaker 1 Thanks, brother. I really enjoyed this.

Speaker 2 This next one's for all you CarMax shoppers who just want to buy a car your way.

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Speaker 1 You wanna do it your way.

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