#997 - Bonnie Blue & Louise Perry - The Modern Sex Work Debate

Louise, why were you interested in sitting down with Bonnie?

I find it really interesting.

I think that a lot of just having talked to women about doing this conversation,

the

response from so many women is, I think, something like morbid curiosity.

Yeah.

Like interested in you, confused by you.

Yeah.

And wondering, I mean, the main thing that I'm hoping to learn about you today, because I've told you about your work, is

your psychology, your personality, what it is about you that's led you to do this.

Because I get the impression from having watched interviews with you and so on, that actually

over the years, I've interviewed loads and loads of women or spoken to loads and loads of women who've been in the sex industry in various ways, whether that's porn or prostitution or brothels, street walking, whatever.

And every single case, they've talked about distress, trauma, or

having a horrible time, like to varying degrees.

You don't talk about that.

And I think that you're telling the truth.

I think actually you don't find this

work

causes you psychological harm.

Yeah.

And I guess I want to find out why.

I think that's a really interesting question.

Yeah.

No, I think it's good because everyone always assumes, and even when I say multiple times, I'm not traumatized, I've not had a bad upbringing, everyone thinks I'm lying.

And it's really not the case.

And it's terrible for some people, unfortunately, they've had a bad upbringing or terrible things have happened.

But for me, I've just chosen to do this.

How familiar are you with with Louise's work?

Do you know what she writes about?

Are you familiar with any of that?

No, I'm not.

I'm born.

Okay, how would you, what's a 30,000-foot view to explain to Bonnie sort of your philosophical underpinnings?

So I guess I'm coming at this as a conservative.

Yeah.

And I've, I mean, I wrote a book called The Case Against the Sexual Revolution.

I'm generally critical of the sexual revolution and porn.

I worked in a rape crisis center before I became a journalist, which I guess has informed my

view.

Bless you.

And

my general view on the sex industry is like very negative

so we i we're gonna come at this from different perspectives but i do like

i'm guessing that a lot of people listening are gonna assume that i'm going to try and like uncover trauma in you or i'm going to try and like break through the you'd waste your time and i i think i actually think that's right and that's part of the reason i'm interested in i'm more interested in talking to you than i would be to say lily phillips yeah because i think that lily to me and to a lot of people i think it's clear that lily is actually suffering quite a lot and is having a hard time.

She seems traumatized.

Right.

Which is in a way

less, the less interesting story.

It's more obvious.

Yeah.

And it is horrible.

Like, I'm very lucky and fortunate to be in the position I'm in because I'm not traumatized.

I'm not upset.

I'm not distressed.

But I think for a lot of people and especially a lot of sex workers, they're completely out of their comfort zone or they're doing things for money and views.

Or unfortunately, they've had a bad upbringing, which has led them to be a sex work.

And it is terrible and it is horrible.

And it's not always the nicest of industries for most people.

Would you advise Lily to stop?

Yeah.

I think if you're going to keep crying and upset, and it's just ruining your family, there's some things which are a lot more valuable than money and views.

The biggest thing in life, and it's so simple, is to be happy.

And if you're not happy, why do something?

Because yes, you could be driving fancy cars and, you know, you could wear flashy clothes.

But if you're not happy, well, then what is it all for like as long as each day I'm waking up happy and I'm going to sleep happy I'll be proud of myself other people might be disgusted in me and I accept that but for me as long as I'm happy then

that's okay

what bit of it makes you happy with what you do it's a mixture there's not one thing it's not like oh it's the orgasm oh it's the money it's the it's the views um

the main part of it is the life I live now both inside of work and outside Like, I get to travel the world.

I go on trips I would have dreamed of.

I get to spend so much more time with my family.

And I don't feel disgusting when I'm at work or when I'm filming.

I'm surrounded with men which are giving me compliments, and it gives me a massive confidence boost.

So

there's no set answer of what makes me happy.

It's there's no part of my job I don't really enjoy.

Like, yes, it can become tiring and it can be hard work at times, but no one becomes successful or lives a really happy life without facing some challenges.

Would you, I mean, something I've often wondered about with anyone on OnlyFans

is you could presumably have landed a rich husband.

Like if you had set that as your object, you're like, I want to live a luxurious life.

Fair enough.

You could have made that your goal.

to be like the most successful gold digger in the world and you would have achieved all of that the travel the living somewhere lovely all of this without the sex worker

i see them as more of a sex worker than me because they're using their sex appeal.

They're using sex to pleasure their partner.

Their partner is then going to fund their lifestyle.

Their partner is then going to pay for holidays, fancy clothes.

They're using sex just like I am.

However, I'm not afraid to admit I use sex to get what I want.

Whereas those people become very snobby, very uptight.

They look down on most people.

Yeah.

they're still using their holes to pay their bills.

It's just someone else is doing it, but I'm independent.

So you're like the more, more honest, more authentic version of it.

For sure, like there's nothing I lie about.

There's nothing I, you know, people call me slut, slag, whatever, and I accept that.

People call me a sex worker because I am.

Whereas if I was to say, look, you've married your husband purely for his money, in return you give him sex.

They'd be like, no, I'm not a sex worker.

If they stop giving him sex, he's going to leave and go elsewhere.

But they can't.

They need his money.

So is it also the vulnerability?

Like you, I mean, I think at this point, you've earned so much money.

Yeah.

You're set up for life, I would guess.

Whereas I suppose a woman with a rich husband at any moment, he could just pull the rug.

They're on contract.

Yeah.

They've got a longer shift than I have, but I could stop.

They can't.

Yeah.

Do you, do you think you ever will stop?

Possibly, but I don't have a plan anymore.

And for most people, that sounds really stressful.

But I used to have the most structured life.

I knew exactly what I'd be doing on a Tuesday at midday.

Where I'd be getting lunch from.

And now I don't have a plan.

Because sometimes when when you have a plan, you become so fixated on the future, what one year looks like, what two years, five years down the line looks like, and then you dismiss everyday happiness.

You become so fixated on what the future looks like, you forget to live your life and live in this moment in time.

So I can't say, oh, it's going to be five years or 10 years because it might be in one year.

I no longer enjoy it.

So I'll stop.

So there's no set

plan.

And that's okay.

I much prefer my life now, even though I don't know what or where I'm going to be tomorrow, let alone five years.

And you can't always say, like, when you was young, you didn't enjoy going to the park.

And then when you're a bit older, you might enjoy some other interests.

And then get connected to bird watching.

Like, it always varies.

So I can't say what's going to make me happy now is going to make me happy in 10 years.

Do you think it would be difficult for you to stop, given that you've attached so much of your notoriety and sense of identity to this thing, that

if you've made a big song and dance about this is what I want to do, that if you no longer want to do it, there is going to be this social consistency bias, this sort of momentum that's behind you, where you go, fuck.

Like every person that said, She's not built for it, or this isn't going to be right, I'm going to have to now do this U-turn, whether it is self-generated or externally imposed.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, that you have this sense of obligation to what you promised in the past about what you wanted right now.

Yeah.

I imagine that even you would struggle.

There's going to be a sense of,

fuck, like I've got this, I've got this weird obligation, identity obligation that I used to have.

I completely understand where you're coming from, but no, because I don't care.

I don't really get peer pressured into doing anything.

If I think something, I'll do it.

And if I don't want to do something, I'm very stubborn and I won't do it.

So, and I've always said, I might not be doing it in 10 years.

I might be doing it in 10 years.

It depends if it makes me happy or not.

And even if I sat here today and said, I'm definitely doing this in 10 years.

And then if in five years I changed my mind, that's fine because I'm in control.

And the big difference between me and other sex workers is I understand my limits.

I understand my body and what I can take or what I can't take.

So I'm never left distressed or I'm never left thinking that was too much for me to handle because, you know, I sort of know what I can and can't do.

Well, have you ever hit your limit?

Not yet.

Right.

I've been very close to.

Okay, tell me about them.

I did a really big scene in America.

So I'd always done, obviously, I did the thousand in January.

And then I did one in in the US in like March or April with 50 porn stars.

And their penises are a lot bigger than the average person.

The way they have sex, the way it's incredibly rough at times.

And that was hard.

And I went into it quite naive.

I was thinking, well, I've done a thousand.

What's 50?

But that 50 was really, it was really hard.

How so?

Just very intense.

It was rough.

There was times where I could not see at all.

Like my eyes were completely filled with fluids.

and yet there's some positions which I was like, no, I need to switch this up.

It's actually feeling, you know, a bit painful.

Um, but that was fine as long as I'm able to say, Hey, I need to switch this position up.

Like, you could be having sex with one person sometimes, and you think, okay, no, my legs are flinching, I need to switch this.

Um, but you have to speak up, you can't sort of sit there and go through something painful and then blame everyone else for you being in pain.

Because if you don't tell someone, it hurts, then how are they going to know?

You say a bit painful.

I mean, I think most women are like bowled over the thought of how painful it would be.

Yeah.

Do you like,

do you think that you're unusual?

Like not wanting to get into an atomic.

Yeah, although it feels funny saying that's body blue.

Do you have like more physical endurance, do you think, than most women?

No, I mean, I've always said I've been very athletic.

I've always been quite fit and healthy.

But no, like when I first started, I didn't really understand what turned me on and what I enjoyed a lot more.

Like when I'm enjoying it, I find I'm able to have sex a lot rougher.

So now, if I need to take more breaks, I will.

I don't feel panicked to sort of know what I'm, I don't ever think, oh, I need to know what I'm doing right now.

If I think, you know what, Ashley, could I have someone to lick me out for five minutes before we go again?

I'll happily speak up and say that.

So, but I do think I have a good level of endurance.

How about emotional endurance?

Because another thing that a lot of women will think is

like, frankly, a lot of these guys are gross.

Like,

I've seen videos of your cues and of the guys who show up to the events, and

they can be old, they can be fat, like, probably some of them smell, I'm guessing.

Honestly, everyone says this, but in terms of the smell, like, yeah, some of them are skinny, some are fat, like, some are spotty, some aren't, but that's normal.

Like, um, but in terms of smell, genuinely, they never smell.

And I think it's because they're so nervous.

They know they're coming to me.

They're starting links before they shoot.

100%.

Yeah.

They know they're coming to me purely for sex.

So they have showered just before I came.

They freshen up just before they come in.

So in terms of smell, no.

But even in terms of body shapes, I used to say, oh, fat people are lazy.

Like they actually irritate me.

But then

when I became a sex worker, I'd start to speak to these men a lot more.

Yeah, some of them are fat and I'd speak to them and realize they're not necessarily fat all the time because they're lazy.

Their life is so busy.

They've got children now.

They're trying to pay bills.

They're trying to keep on top of things and they can no longer prioritize.

you know, clean eating all the time in the gym.

So I don't even judge the fat ones anymore, but I used to.

But you don't get any sense of of like physically recoiling.

Like, I don't fancy this man.

You never get that.

Well, most of them have a blue ski mask on.

So in terms of their face-wise, no.

Yeah.

I think if I really found someone unattractive, the part I've struggled with most is the kissing.

Cause to me, that's very,

I don't know, you connect a lot when you kiss someone.

But no, like I don't always even see their face.

And I know this is going to repulse a lot of people, but I love the fact there's like always a rotation.

I don't even always know I've had sex with someone.

I don't always know who's inside of me.

But no, I don't get repulsed.

I sort of see everyone as they're there for a reason.

I don't know what's happening behind their closed doors.

And I'm there purely to give them a good experience.

And that's all I sort of focus on.

Some of them I obviously find more attractive than others.

I think, Liddy, oh, you're hot.

And then other ones, I'm like, oh, I wouldn't date you.

But even if you walk past someone attractive in the street, that's not what's going to make you come.

It's the way they are, their technique.

And I can remember when I was a full service worker, one of my clients, he was a bit bigger.

I didn't find him attractive.

And if anything, he repulsed me a little bit.

He made me orgasm.

And I was like, oh, God, should I be disgusting in myself that this guy that I don't find attractive has just made me come.

And then I realized it's not to do with their looks.

It's their technique and how they treat me in the bedroom.

That you're going to sleep with someone really attractive and they're terrible in bed.

So you do have a threshold.

Like sometimes you will find men.

slightly repulsive at least, but it's not so high a threshold that basically everyone...

Obviously, I I look at different people and think you're more attractive than the other person I prefer your body shapes the other one like everyone's got preferences and I know I have but I never look at someone think

I don't want you near me interesting I remember Rachel Moran who is a she was um

a prostituted as a teenager in in Dublin

she

something that she says to women to try and like help them to understand what it's like to be in prostitution is imagine being on a bus or in a cafe or something and look around every single man in that room and think I have to have sex with every single one of these men like old young fat whatever um and she she uses that as the thought experiment for women because overwhelmingly they respond like oh

and what's unusual about you is you don't respond oh yeah you actually

want smelly and like stuff like that that really get me like smell i just think stick some deodorant on i'll have a shower like uh-huh but because they don't smell like that was that's my biggest thing i think it's smart especially because they're going to be in my mouth and i'm licking them yeah but in terms of looks i really don't judge and And I probably used to,

but you've trained yourself out of it.

But not trained myself.

I've spoken to them for years now and hours and on end.

Like if someone's got bad skin, it's not their fault all the time.

Sometimes it's because they've got a terrible diet and they're lazy and they're not washing their face and everything else.

But some people just have bad skin.

Some people are super skinny.

Some people are fat.

And

I'm always very open-minded.

And I think that's allowed me to drop the judgment and drop the you repulse me because I might see someone really fat and some of them come in with genuinely not even an inch, and they're massive, and I can barely find it.

But I think, you know, what you've come to the event, like this might really boost your confidence.

I don't know, you might be really stressing outside of this, you might be having a bad life, and there's probably a reason of why you're so fat.

But I just want to give you a good, you know, very philanthropic in that way.

What do you think sex is for?

Do you think of it as something?

Is it sacred, relational, recreational, nothing?

Is it the same as

walking?

It's a hobby.

It's fun.

And there's not really much to it

else I think about it.

Before, I used to have a really low body count prior to being a sex worker.

I couldn't imagine having sex with someone unless I was dating them or unless I imagined, you know, I wasn't having sex on a first date.

Now it's within seconds.

But to me, now sex is just a, it doesn't have to mean something.

I can still enjoy it.

It's a, it's an orgasm.

and it's as simple as that.

Before,

how old were you when you became a sex worker?

24.

I'm doing two years, so 20.

And that was straight into OnlyFans?

Yeah.

Well, I did camin for a couple of weeks.

Okay.

Maybe for like two to four weeks, I did camin and that really boosted my confidence.

And then I set up OnlyFans.

So before then,

you said you had a low body count.

You wouldn't do like gangbangs off camera, right?

Because that's now your main thing.

That's what you're looking for.

Yeah, so prior to that, I was married and in a long-term relationship.

Yeah.

And so, like, where's this come from?

Where's this massive change in your sexual preferences?

Um, to start with, money.

Yeah, I didn't want to go back to work.

I used to work in recruitment, long hours, restricted annual leave, and I lived the same life as everybody else.

And then they sit and complain about it.

I heard that you worked at Poundland when you were younger.

Yes, I did.

That was quite bad, to be honest.

I can remember someone pissed in a potty and gave it to me.

And I thought, well, both the fact that it's called Poundland and they pissed in a potty, that was quite prescient, I guess, for the the rest of your life.

Yeah, to be honest, I should use that.

But yeah, I used to be a waitress.

I was a dance teacher.

I worked at Poundland.

I just did anything for

a bit of money.

And I never really cared what job I did.

Like, I worked at Poundstretcher because that job paid more than all the other shops at the retail park.

Other people wanted a job at McDonald's, but my job paid nearly £2 extra an hour.

So I've always been more bothered about what life I can create outside of work as opposed to being bothered that I had to wear a pound stretcher outfit.

But yeah, when I first started, it was money and I wanted flexibility in my life because I knew going back into recruitment meant rush hour traffic, sitting there for 40 hours a week, if not longer, and only having Saturday and Sunday to myself.

And then Sundays tends to be food shop, cooking for the week, and your whole day is taken up before you know it.

So money and freedom was why I started.

And so you hadn't previously been sexually adventurous?

No, like sex three times a week

with your husband.

Yeah.

How old were you when you lost virginity?

13.

So that is quite young.

Young, but I've always been very grown up for my age.

So if I saw a 13-year-old now, some of them I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe I even had sex at that age.

But I was very mature when I was 13.

In terms of the group sex events that you're known for now,

why did you start doing that?

Was it because it turns you on, or is it because there was like a niche in the market?

It happened by accident, to be honest, the first one.

Well, I don't just trip into

you know and end up in a gangbang but i started off doing things like freshers and spring break and i was at spring break in march

last year and

loads of them would been saying at that like at the hotel i was at like oh i haven't had a chance to sleep with you yet you've not replied to my message and i was leaving the following day so i just shared my hotel room number i was like look i'm gonna be here i leave at 10 a.m tomorrow just queue up bring your friends like the door's gonna be open and that just naturally ended up in a gangbang.

It got to like 3-4 a.m.

I was really tired, and I was like, Look, whoever's left in the queue, look, just come all at once because,

like, I don't want to leave you waiting.

And that was the first time I did a gangbang, and I realized it wasn't what I thought.

It wasn't dirty, it wasn't disgusting.

These guys were having a laugh, there was high-fiving each other.

It was quite, it was more funny than it was sexy, to be honest.

Some of them couldn't get hard, some of them was finishing straight away.

And I realized I loved the environment it created.

It wasn't dirty.

And I know people imagine it that way, but it was really just a fun experience for me and those involved.

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How did you end up chasing the records?

So doing the hundred, doing the thousand?

So after that spring break, there was a journalist who said, like, what's next?

Like, what are you going to do after this?

Because each time I was doing these like spring break or freshes, my numbers was going up.

And he was like, well, why don't you do the world record?

So it was actually a journalist, Joe, who sort of mentioned it.

And I didn't think too much of it.

I was like, yeah, that sounds brilliant.

But I knew I wasn't big enough at the time to get 900, a thousand people to be queuing up and having sex with me.

Because it's one thing saying you're going to do it, the organization behind it is probably the biggest headache and the difficult part.

Um, so yeah, it was in the back of my mind from March.

And as the months went on, I continued to grow.

My social media got bigger, I was building a bigger name for myself.

So then that's why I did it in January.

If you've got any questions, I can go on and on.

I'm happy watching this go back and forth.

It's go along, on girl for now.

I do like boy, girl, girl, as I said.

I'm setting this one out.

I'm in the corner.

So I guess doing the big events and like shocking people.

And one of the things that you do in terms of your social media strategy is you troll everyone, right?

Like, and particularly you're often addressing women and like the wives and girlfriends of these men and really focus, like trying to get a rise out of people, trying to be controversial.

And one of the things, again, that I find sort of, as a woman, I find surprising.

And having spoken to other women, they also find it surprising is that you don't seem to mind women hating you.

No, it doesn't upset you.

You don't feel that need to be liked that most women do feel.

It's another way in which, like, you've got the physical endurance, you've got the low threshold for disgust, you've got, and you've got this appetite for notoriety.

I don't hate women at all.

I know it can come across like I hate women, and that's honestly not the case at all.

But I say many times, like women are very easy to wind up at times, and they're the ones that spend more time on TikTok than their husbands.

So if I'm using a platform like TikTok, I'm going to sometimes make my TikToks for women because I know they're going to complain about it.

They're going to sit and watch it and their husband is then going to hear it.

So my videos, when I do the TikToks, even though it's aimed at women, it's aimed because I know the husband's going to hear about this one way or another.

And the things I say, it can come across very harsh.

I do believe everything I say, but I will word it in a very,

I guess, rude way at times because TikTok you've got about 10 seconds before someone scrolls off that if not shorter so I'm gonna say it in the most brutal way possible to get them watching the rest of that video do you have many female friends yes I do okay

I know that can seem shocking or people say why would you sleep with their husband or what do your friends think about what you say

but they hear like the long-winded explanation of why I've said something or like one of the big ones is you know about husbands cheating and it was never your husband is cheating on you.

It was just if you're not having sex with him, he is probably going elsewhere and I will happily sleep with him.

But it's never to say, look, I'm going to turn up at your house and drag your husband out of your home.

Would you feel a particular way if you'd found out that one of the people in the ski mask had been the husband of one of your friends?

Yeah, I would obviously feel bad because I'd feel bad that their relationship had broke down a lot sooner.

Before than what they would have realized for him to have been at one of my events, it clearly doesn't have had a good communication with his wife.

You see it as like a symptom of the relationship in crisis rather than you causing crisis.

You will have some idiots and some men that will just cheat because they've cheated and they've got two brain cells.

If that, a lot of the time, though, if someone cheats, there's a reason.

There's a lack of communication, a lack of connection with that partner.

I'm not the one to blame.

I've never forced them to be there.

All I've done is put the message out and said, hey, would you like to have sex with me?

No one is forced.

No one is, you know, bribed to be there.

Not even paid.

If a wife has ever been affected to have sex with her husband, it sounds rude, but it's they need to look in the mirror.

They need to look at the communication they're having with their partner.

And I'm sorry they're in a relationship that's not happy, but I'm not the one that's ruined that marriage.

That's true, but we would, you would be able to say a person who's a recovering alcoholic or a person who just has a tendency toward addiction, it is smarter for that person to not be around alcohol all the time.

And if there was some imposition by the government that put alcohol on every street corner this person would find it more difficult to avoid that it's far easier to avoid temptation than it is to like to keep yourself away from it than it than it is to stop feeling it altogether makes it very easy and the increased prevalence of this the increased advertising of this may cause people to think well well what's what's wrong with that like it's more it's more easily available i can put the ski mask on no one's going to find out for sure it definitely is easy um i'll actually share the location you just turn up it'd honestly be easier for them to cheat on a a night owl, cheat when they're at work because they know when they turn up, yes, they have a blue ski mask on, but they've got to bring their ID.

They've got to sign a consent form.

They've got to take their mask off to fill in the consent form and fill in the form.

So

it'd be much easier for them to cheat elsewhere.

And I think there's a lot more hurtful.

I'm not sure if it would be easier for them to cheat elsewhere.

I think what's referred to in the industry as a clean kill, which is one that has no digital footprint when cheating on your partner,

is hard to be giving your phone number.

We'll meet up at the end of the night, or there's the room key to the hotel that you've used or concerns about CCTV I get the sense that a lot of guys would see ski mask on briefly take it off fill the thing in put it back on and get to do this as

repercussion a repercussion free way to be able to cheat on their partner yeah and I do get that but for them to have been there

there's a reason if someone was really happy in their marriage they wouldn't they won't have turned up But I'm going to sort of contradict myself a little bit because I think sometimes people cheat, and it's not because they don't love their wife or their kids, but their wife no longer has a high sex drive, or they've had children and they feel a bit body conscious and no longer want to have sex, and that's okay.

But your husband probably doesn't feel the same.

Your husband's probably still wanting sex, and he doesn't want to sometimes hurt you by saying he no longer feels like he's being pleasured.

So he goes elsewhere to have sex, meaningful sex.

He's just having it.

He's not cheating.

He's just, well, he is, but it's not an affair.

There's no text and there's no emotional connection.

Literally coming to someone who's offering herself up and then going back to you.

I think there is times people cheat and it's done not to hurt the wife, but if anything, the opposite, just to protect them and want to keep them happy in their own little bubble and not ever sort of pressure them and saying, look, hey, I want sex from you else.

I'm going to go elsewhere.

Donnie, I've heard you say that you can't condemn porn stars with your right hand while masturbating with your left hand.

What do you mean?

That if someone was to tweet and say, this is horrendous, how dare she do that?

Whilst also being a user of porn, that seems like a little bit of hypocrisy.

Is that a fair criticism to try and square that circle in a way?

I think what you do, Bonnie, not just in terms of the porn, but also in your attitude towards money and towards independence and like you, and actually egalitarianism.

I mean, when you talk about like, I'll take any man, I don't judge, whatever, there's something very

progressive about that politically right like being super super egalitarian what you do is you actually take a lot of these um ideas that are present in the culture to their logical conclusion yeah you say well okay you tell me the culture says that it's fine to be sexually liberated and to um prioritize being an entrepreneur and to um not worry about all this traditional hang-ups and you basically take that to its logical conclusion take it to the extreme you do and i think what I think what happens a lot, one of the reasons I think you sort of rile people up is a lot of people who have a vague sense that that stuff is all good and fine and like they're kind of okay with sexual freedom and they're kind of okay with capitalism and egalitarianism

they see that taken to its extreme and they go oh hang on i don't like that so you're saying that yeah bonnie is like the reductio ad absurdum of the sexual revolution yeah you hold up a mirror to the culture which i think is what it is is it fair to say that bonnie is just the natural end result of modern feminism yeah as well as other things too but yeah definitely i mean definitely the idea of prioritizing sexual liberation above all else and not seeing that I mean what you said about sex being a hobby I think that is an important idea that come the only reason we think that now is because we have reliable contraception obviously before that you couldn't think of sex in that way because it well especially women like they exactly yeah it's it's because the risks are so high for them um but since the sexual revolution we've come to think i mean in a slightly schizophrenic way i think that people actually often think contradictory things but yeah they often say oh yeah whatever sex like as long as everyone's consenting that's fine And then they see you, you doing exactly that.

Everyone in your queues is consenting.

You're consenting.

And they don't like it.

And one of the reasons I think you're such a notorious figure is because

you actually invite people to look at those ideas and think, oh, wait, maybe actually if I don't like what Bonnie Bloom is doing, do I actually support sexual freedom?

Yeah, well, they sort of say one thing.

and then contradict themselves within two seconds.

Yeah.

And I always say, not everyone should do what I do and not everyone will will enjoy it.

And that's why I'm like, I just think, especially as women, if you want to do something, do it.

As long as it's above board and legal and everyone's consenting, do it.

Don't care about what people are going to say.

Don't care about the backlash.

Like care about the backlash if you're going to struggle dealing with it.

But if someone makes you happy, especially as a woman, like we're not restricted anymore.

We can be independent.

Well, a lot of people would say it shouldn't be legal.

Yeah.

Then they would try and stop you.

For sure.

Everyone says, I'm a, you know, I groom them to have sex with me.

And then there was a massive argument because I don't pay the students I have sex with.

And they said, that's completely wrong.

But then if I'd have paid them, there's suddenly a sex worker and then there's bribery involved.

So it's, I honestly can't win.

And I think that's why I just don't care so much as well, because if I do one thing, it's wrong.

And if I do the other, it's also wrong.

And one of the main hate comments I get is, oh, if this was a guy, they'd be arrested.

If this was a guy, they'd be in prison.

The belly legal stuff.

Have, for sure.

But teen category has always been the most searched category in adult content yeah but the only difference is it's always been the males that have been older so all i've done is switch it and now suddenly these women that don't care about these men saying they hate me because they're so concerned that if because if this was a guy they'd be arrested and they think things should be equal is it just look in the mirror Google, go online, you'll notice it's always schoolgirls dressed up.

Even when I was young for Halloween, we dressed up as sexy schoolgirls.

Like schoolgirl has always been a thing.

And I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but don't cry about it being a schoolboy if you've never had an issue with the schoolgirl

you do of course do stuff with schoolgirls as well yeah which is quite i i don't have an issue with it i never said i have um and people had a massive uproar when i did the schoolgirl as well yeah before it was an issue because it was the schoolboy so it's like you know what i'll take both

That's a good way to ensure that equality is reached across the sexes.

Is it empowering that Bonnie can do this?

Right to say it's empowering?

I mean, I think that the whole,

I don't like the word empowering.

I think the whole idea of it.

I mean, I think actually you demonstrate the problems with that,

with that whole idea

that

you clearly are being empowered, certainly financially and in terms of independence and all the stuff we've talked about.

But

and I, and I believe you when you say that this is good for you and that you're happy and, you know, and the men in the queue are happy and whatever.

I mean, there clearly there is collateral damage in terms of the wives and girlfriends for sure I was going to ask have there been people you know who say lost jobs or got in trouble in some way from having come to one of your events because often they're not wearing masks for sure uh no and a lot of people say when these are you know they're 18 or they don't know what they're doing or they're going to make a mistake or they're going to regret it when they apply for a job i've never known in a job interview they say hey is this your penis is this you know was you entering bonnie blue on this day like they're not going to see that maybe if you put your face next to mine and they went for a job interview, it might come up in question.

But a lot of these people are filming POV, especially the students.

Most of them don't show their face.

And even the ones that are like, oh, I am happy to show my face.

If anything, I'll ask them not to because I want them to feel really confident.

I want them to feel really comfortable in the situation.

But yeah, no one's going to give you a job interview.

Get up the sex tape.

and then go, that's your penis.

And the other benefit of it is I sleep with so many people, even if they knew you slept with me, they're not not going to be able to pinpoint your sex tape or they're never going to be able to prove it to you.

Because I always make sure, unless they really, really want the face out there, I keep everything really confidential.

So, it's plausible that the amount of direct clash or damage that you're doing is quite low.

I mean, there presumably will be some relationships that have failed and so on, but you but you would say that that's because they had already failed and this was just the catalytic.

Yeah, and it's not necessarily failed.

Um, some relationships just don't work because as you grow older, you become different people, you have different interests or different hobbies.

Like it's not because a relationship has failed, just sometimes you're no longer meant to be with that person.

Sure.

So but the direct harm that you're causing to yourself, to other people is probably not that high.

So then,

which means that anyone who

wants to condemn you on the basis of you harming people.

struggles a little bit.

It's actually quite hard to point to someone who like Bonnie Blue has hurt.

Well, what do you think the damage is?

Where is the damage coming into contact with the world in your opinion?

So I think the damage is cultural and social.

I think the damage is bigger and kind of harder to pin down.

It's not like you can just point to this person.

If the only thing you think that is important is consent, then you can't really point to a single person and say, you know, but that's not my view of it.

My view of it is that there's like a...

you're contributing to a culture that regards sex as a meaningless hobby.

And I think that that's bad in a broader way.

I think you can have both, though, because I feel like I have very meaningful sex, and then I can have some sex on camera.

I've had some meaningful sex on camera as well.

More when it's a boy-girl scene, because you're able to focus a lot more, it's a lot more intimate, and you have a greater connection with them.

But each one of my either sex tapes or sex events are very different.

There's a different meaning and a different purpose of it.

But yeah, with the damage I sort of cause, it's always from women speaking, saying how hurt they are.

even though I've never touched them, I've never done anything.

Yet, the people that come to my events are nothing but grateful, polite, and say they've had a good experience.

And a lot of these women that say, you know, I'm damaging, you skip two videos back and they're giving me death threats.

They're saying, I want to turn up to one of Bonnie Blue's events and leave her black and blue.

I want to make sure she leaves in a coffin.

And I'm like, you're the one in the wrong.

I've never hurt anybody and I've never given anyone a death threat or said, I'm going to beat you up or leave you black and blue.

I think

from what Louise is saying, it is very difficult to pinpoint: okay, if we work very hard on consent and assume that everyone is allowed to take radical responsibility, including you, for what's going on, yeah, everybody is consenting unless there is some situation where a person is not fully of their mind or whatever the term would be over the age of consent.

It is difficult to point at the first-order consequence of this, but maybe downstream there is something that is moving the culture in a kind of direction.

So, I guess an interesting question on that is:

can you imagine a world in which anything happened that would make you question

what you're doing?

Are there any sort of consequences or repercussions that you can think of that would cause you to second guess

the stuff that you're doing?

If the people I was having sex with was coming to me with issues or saying, look, it's ruined my life or I'm really hurt by this or I regret it.

It's a big mistake.

Instead, I just see the same people a lot of the time at these events.

So if the hate switched from the women that don't know me and are poorly educated, switched to the men that was at my events or the men I speak to online, I would really reconsider the way I do things and the way I approach things.

But even with the whole barely legal things and the students, like the students themselves find it really funny.

Like they're not, they know I'm not walking around the streets going, oh my God, give me an 18-year-old.

They're walking around going, I'm barely legal.

And it's, they find it funny because they're, they're not stupid.

I mean, you've got some 18 years that are, 18-year-olds that are, but you can be stupid at any age.

They see how warmed up, because they're much better at technology and TikTok and everything than I am, and especially their parents.

So they see the backlash, me saying barely legal causes, and they find it funny.

Like, I'll be walking down the street sometimes.

They're like, I'm barely legal.

I'm a virgin.

Can I get, you know, can I skip the queue?

So the people

that say I'm very damaging towards 18-year-olds and stuff, they're actually more intelligent than these people making the TikToks because they know it's, I'm not walking down the street and I'm grabbing them out of school or universities.

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So, a concrete example of,

yeah, not causing this individual harm, but causing a wider kind of harm is when you did your thousand in, was it January?

Yeah,

it happened at the same time, and obviously caused a lot of media response at the same time that grooming gangs were back in the news because of Elon Musk talking about it primarily.

And then there was, you know, the wrangling over where there should be an inquiry and all this kind of stuff.

And some people pointed out at the time, it was not deliberate on your part,

But what it contributed to you being in the news was this sense that British women are sluts.

And that obviously fed into this whole discussion around grooming gangs and the feeling that the girls have been asking for it.

Well, you know, we have this sexually liberated culture.

You know, that's obviously the really

the really, really unsympathetic view that's taken towards the victims of these gangs.

Do you feel like you end up feeding into that view of what British women are like?

No, because I mean, I don't know how many women are in the UK, but there's a lot more than one.

I'm one person out of the millions.

You have this massive international reputation.

For sure, but I also get told all the time how it's not normal.

So I'm not, there's no part of me that believes I'm to blame if UK people are being called sluts because I'm one person.

I say, look, this is what I consent to.

This is what I enjoy.

Every single woman is so different.

I even do hundreds of TikToks saying how lazy women are and how much they don't want to give blowjobs.

So I highlight the fact they're not sluts.

They're quite the opposite.

I suppose that's true.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But yeah, it is.

I've been asked multiple times if I'm a cover-up because the same time I've done something, something big's gone in the news, and unfortunately it's been sort of pushed down because my oppressors, you know, been spoken about more.

And that's terrible.

And there's much more concerning things in the world to be highlighted and talked about.

Okay, you're saying that your sex events are false flags to try and drown out some more deserving

story.

I've been asked if I was a spy before as well.

But yeah, like it's sometimes the timing's bad and I'm, you know, it's really unfortunate that sometimes my stories have been spoken about more than things that are honestly dangerous and damaging on society.

So your concern is there's a kind of propagandistic effect of the type of pornography coming out of the UK that might make it more attractive for foreign people to come here or for people who don't fully understand the culture to have a sense they haven't been able to do what you've said, which is I keep on being told that I'm not normal.

Something tells me that it isn't the people who don't have an in-depth understanding of what the culture is, because the only way they can say that's not normal is to have something to frame it against.

This is normal, this is not normal, this is an outlier.

But if all you see is the tiny tip of the iceberg, when you're not delving that deep into culture, you just see what is the biggest story, which happens to be you.

And if it's consistently, to be honest, you and Lily Phillips, like

you guys are in the same part of the country as well.

Yeah.

It's a funny coincidence.

Is that a genuine concern?

I mean, I'm not the only person to notice that the nature of porn is it's mostly produced in the west and it mostly features white women and also east asian women but that's like overwhelmingly and i think that one of the things that does end up happening is

men in other cultures watch porn everyone has a smartphone everyone can see it and they get the impression that this is what white women are like and i mean i know just personally like having traveled to parts of the world where

you get the most like

pornographic style of sexual harassment is what I have noticed.

Like I remember remember going to Morocco with a female friend and we got so much like lesbian porn related comments from the men and I just thought you're watching Western porn aren't you?

And in your head this is what white women are like.

White woman equals porn style.

Yeah and it ends up being like racist propaganda inadvertently.

No one's designing it that way but that is how it functions in terms of how it affects men's views of what women are like.

Yeah, I think there's definitely a bigger picture at times.

And

I honestly I'm not that knowledgeable and I'm not that educated on stuff stuff that's going off in the world or things which, you know, people can escalate and blame me for.

Like, I really am a very simple girl.

It's, I have sex, I enjoy it.

I film it.

I post it and I live my life.

And I'd say all the time, I'm very selfish.

I'm not too concerned about what's going off in the world.

And that can be very bad.

But I also think, even if I was to sit here and really care, I'm not going to make a difference.

Presumably, you wouldn't want what you're doing to be criminalized because that's what you could say, you know, you're just, you're just in it for yourself fine but maybe there's a responsibility on governments to say actually this is this is so bad for like the social fabric that we need to ban only fans ban the events i mean i know obviously you've come into contact with only fans about some of your events yeah if you was to ban it they're then going to go to other websites sex porn has always been there so we're very naive to think if we banned only fans and fansly that these issues are going to stop you're just going to go to other platforms which don't have as many restrictions at least with the platforms like fansly you have to upload that many consent forms.

It's a very strict process.

If you're going to go to these other websites and the dark web and all these other places, you don't know what age that person is.

You don't know about the consent situation or, you know, if someone's forced them to be there.

But with the other platforms, it is not always safe, but especially from my side, it is a very safe environment.

Although one of the things we've learned from the Online Harms Act coming in recently is actually that now men in Britain have to show, have to jump this kind of ID hurdle to get access to.

to

British citizens now have to jump this ID hurdle.

It means that actually the traffic construction.

Yeah, so you have to show your driving license or something to the and obviously a lot of people don't want to give say porn hobbies.

It's scary.

But what it's led to is actually a massive drop in porn consumption.

Yeah, it was 47% on porn hall by the way.

Yeah, so that does actually show that this is elastic.

It's not like men are always going to seek out like a fixed

frictionlessness

going to cause how much people access it.

Yeah.

And if it's harder to access porn, people will watch less of it.

So I think the idea that like this is just, I agree to some extent that this is an inevitability.

And even, you know, Roman wall murals featured pornography.

And, you know, this is like a human eternal thing.

But that doesn't mean that

what you do is always going to happen.

whenever you know like it is possible for governments to crack down on this yeah it is but i think i mean sex sex workers have helped reduce rape rates.

They have.

Have they?

Yes.

I know people always say that.

It's kind of like, I guess it could intuitively make sense, but it does assume that the reason, the only reason men rape is because of sexual frustration.

No, there's obviously so many reasons.

And, you know, I'm not intelligent enough to name every single one, but having sex workers and having content available does help

a lot of women and make it a lot safer.

But with like porn rates dropping, yeah, there might be 20% that no longer watch porn because they don't know up about their ID and they don't want the inconvenience of it.

And it's a bit of a headache.

But there's still going to be a massive percentage of that that are now just going elsewhere.

They're going to other websites and other platforms.

And it goes back to those platforms aren't as controlled and they're not as safe.

And not just that, like education on sex should be a much bigger thing

across all ages.

I think that the idea that, so another example I think, which challenges this idea, which is, which is, is a common idea that men are always going to do this they're always going to find a way if they don't find it the safe way they'll find the unsafe way is

surveys done I can't think of the numbers off the top of my head but surveys done of countries which have different models in relation to like street prostitution so some countries that have the Nordic model which criminalizes the punters and some countries which would have decriminalized or legalized systems

can often have like neighbouring countries of very similar cultures can have really similar dissimilar rates of men who who say that they've bought sex like a big gap in the proportion of men who say that they've bought sex and in cultures where it's completely legalized and normalized it's common for say men to go to a brothel for a stag do things like that whereas in countries where that's not legal men just stop doing that it doesn't mean they completely stop watching porn they completely stop buying sex but there is a culture change people do start thinking that it's

a correlation do you know if there's a correlation in those countries between sexual assault

not to my knowledge i mean this is a hard thing to study And this is always, and I've always said that when, because obviously I'm critical of porn, right?

But and I've always said, actually, the strongest argument against my position, which people do occasionally put to me, is if you could absolutely prove that the existence of porn reduced rape,

for me, that would be the most compelling reason to not condemn porn.

100%.

I think it'd be the complete opposite.

These guys, this, you know, and I don't know, but I'm just thinking of a scenario, but if a guy sat there and he feels really horny and, you know, he could be angry and he's worked up.

If he's able to access it on his phone, he's able to release himself.

And a lot of guys, after they've released, they're like, you know what, they no longer have the urge.

If they're getting themselves worked up, they're not able to access content.

It's difficult to say where that might lead to.

The problem is that sometimes

men who might start off having relatively normal sexual desires, or maybe their desires are a little bit weird or aggressive or whatever, but they're within the normal bounds.

What porn can do, because obviously, porn offers every possible imaginable variety of fetish, everything, is that they can start using the weirder stuff, or maybe the more violent stuff, or whatever, and they develop a taste for it, and they develop a taste for it.

And it's like they double down their taste.

This is Mary's law of fap entropy,

right?

And

anecdotally, it's a hard thing to study, but anecdotally, men, like it is primarily men, do talk about this, that they might have had a little bit of an interest in something, but then the porn basically allows them to like massively, massively grow that interest.

And little neural highways become motorways.

and this is and then all of a sudden it's the only thing that gets them off yeah and they get more and more extreme and to some extent the porn sites feed on that because they want the Pareto distribution guys they want the guys who are the power users exactly yeah um

and I mean that's not I guess quite as true with your stuff because it's not like well I mean is it fetish material do you think is that

some of it is a massive event the gangbangs but to honestly In terms of like the sex world, there's some stuff I watch and it's like solo content.

I'm like, oh my God, that's crazy!

Like, they've just put this massive dildo up, they asked, and I'm like, that's insane.

Whereas they'd watch me doing a gangbang, they're like, no, that's insane.

So, everyone's got different things which they class as a fetish or extreme.

Um, for me, I guess it is somewhat of a fetish, like, gangbangs isn't for everyone, um, but it's not a fetish compared to like some of the stuff I see online, or some of like the BDSM, or some of the things which I deem crazy.

Um, but some people, that's probably normal.

You do lean towards rough sex and are sort of pro-choking, at least for yourself, Yeah.

Louise, I know that you've done work in the past around

a particular loophole with regards to BDSM choking killings.

Yeah, so I used to work for a campaign group.

I'm only not working for it now only because we like succeeded in our goal, which was to change the law.

But there was a period where it was increasingly common for women to get killed by men and then the men would claim that they'd consented to whatever had caused their death.

So say that, oh, I accidentally strangled her to death, but she did consent.

And this was becoming more and more common as a defence tactic.

And so men were often getting really short manslaughter sentences when actually,

from like it could very well have been that actually this was just straightforward domestic violence.

You had no way of knowing that this woman had consented to anything.

I say the police, though, it's not, I won't say that's purely porn's fault.

I say a lot of that's the police.

Like they wouldn't just be if there's a massive domestic violence.

And I know some guys could just lose it and kill their partners.

But if that was the case, it it was probably a build-up.

There's probably additional bruises, text messages, phone calls, other things which could say like it wasn't purely because they'd watched rough porn.

Yeah.

I think domestic violence, there's a lot of other reasons and a lot more realistic reasons.

Yeah and I think often there were failures happening at every stage and often different police or judges or juries were quite credulous and they didn't take

seriously the alternative hypothesis.

For sure.

But I think it was a clear example.

It is.

It's still an issue in other countries.

Thankfully, since the law changed, we actually haven't really had, I don't think we've had any men attempting this defense tactic.

But

it was evidence, I think, of when rough sex and choking is normalized, all of a sudden you have juries who a generation ago would never have known anything about this.

It would have been like a really weird outside of their realm of experience thing.

Suddenly thinking, oh, yeah, that's plausible.

Like, I know that, I know that all the Zuma girls love being choked nowadays.

For sure.

I guess it makes sense that this would be the case.

And I think that's a good example of how you can look at this just on an individual level and say, well, I'm consenting and I'm consenting.

Therefore, that's fine.

But it can scale to having really destructive cultural consequences.

I do think

trying to sort of, as I am sitting in the middle here and hearing

in a world that

pedestalizes radical responsibility, personal accountability, freedom, all that stuff,

it is tough to come up with a first order order pushback.

It's like everyone's consenting.

This is all allowed.

That does seem to me to hold quite a bit of water, which is what happens when you start to move culture?

What happens when guys start to think, well, Bonnie Blue likes it and she's the most famous porn star in the UK.

And then you get to a situation where I do imagine that girls could be traumatized by guys trying

dudes are nervous in the bedroom.

and they want to try and perform in a way that they think is going to make them attractive and masculine.

And I'm going to do the thing.

You go, it shouldn't have been that.

Like, it wasn't that thing.

That thing wasn't the thing you should have been doing.

And that influence, that sexual culture influence, the reason that we don't tend to typically talk about it is that we don't try on sexual tactics the same way as we see somebody in a cool pair of cargo pants.

That has only been a very recent invention that you would even be able to, you know, maybe your uncle that was kind of a little bit like chill would have said, oh, well, you know, you can do this in the bedroom or whatever.

And that's it.

It wouldn't, maybe your older brother, perhaps, I guess, but even that's a bit weird.

So this world of

sex technique influence and trends, I have to assume, kind of really.

It's an internet phenomenon in it.

It didn't exist previously.

And

you are going to be contributing to that.

See, I disagree.

I think the reason is like the porn I make,

the consent is discussed on camera.

When I'm talking about being choked, I always say, hey, can you choke me like this?

Actually, can you do it a bit looser?

And I've said from the start, some of these guys, when I started doing 18-year-old content, would come to me and do just that.

They'd want to perform.

They'd want to go really rough and they'd slap and choke me.

I'd be like, well, hold on a second.

You're actually hurting me now.

I'm confident enough to speak up to say, hey, like just how guys try and perform and really impress the girls.

Sometimes a lot of girls will just take it because they want to seem, they want to impress the guy as well, make out they can take it.

And it's a bit different.

And there's so many anecdotal examples that I've heard of girls who don't have your confidence and don't feel able to be assertive in that that way and they'll have some guy choke them and they find it terrifying, particularly if it's someone you don't really know.

You're like, is this guy going to murder me?

Yeah, but they think, oh, I'm going to go along with it because it looks sexy or the guy thinks it's attractive.

And I always say, like, in porn, that's never discussed.

And I do think that should change.

It should be, look, in this video, normally you like watch American's Got Talent or Britain's Got Talent.

It's like, don't try this at home, or this is done by an expert.

Pornhub or other platforms should say, look, within this content, there is extreme.

The choking is done in a safe environment.

And it's kind of

a jackass.

This program contains strobe-lighting effects.

How many teenage boys did try what was on jackass, right?

Everybody in my school.

For sure.

Despite saying this was done by trained professionals, do not try it.

But at least

you sort of know because some of these people that watch porn, they're not intelligent or they don't know or they've gone from sex education at school, which middle-aged teacher, not been laid, and you think, I'm not listening to anything you say.

You might have had a quick chat with your parents.

Maybe your uncle or a brother has mentioned a few techniques.

That's it.

You feel as a guy, oh, okay, I just need to try and give this crazy performance.

I'm gonna do it rough, slapping, hair pulling, and give her this crazy sex.

And she probably doesn't like it.

She's gonna be too nervous to say.

But in the sex I have with these 18-year-olds, or sometimes older, because they're not very experienced, I explain to them how I enjoy to be choked, how long to choke before, you know, move your hand down a little bit.

And that's all left in.

I don't edit that out.

I don't crop it.

You see that in the video.

And discussing consent isn't weird.

it's sexy.

It's sexy to say to a guy, I really like it when you do this, or can you do this, or you know, stick another finger in.

Whereas, most porn, it looks like this most perfect art performance.

And when I used to do porn, I used to do that.

I used to edit out all the bits where I've had to stop and get some extra lube, or I've had to switch positions because I thought it needed to look perfect and look like everyone else's porn.

And then I realized when I started sleeping with 18-year-olds, how damaging that is, even in terms of the fact I only slept with body shapes that near enough had perfect abs and big dicks because that's what's you know in the porn industry then when I realized how

I guess

lack of information is shared with these people I was like I'm gonna keep all that in it's not unsexy to not know how to pull hair or how to choke properly or the fact you can't get hard or the fact you finish really quickly but it's made to seem unattractive because it's always cropped out and we don't talk about it

would you ban that type of porn the really fake style no but it should just come with a disclaimer.

It's like a movie.

If you wanted to learn how to drive a car, you don't watch Fast and Furious to learn.

Yeah.

And it's also not damaging to watch that.

But who's going to make it have a disclaimer?

Like, do you think the porn industry should be regulated?

Or do you think it should be regularly?

But Sean, I think a lot of it is.

There's a lot of content I would like to do and I can't do because they're saying it doesn't agree.

What like?

I'd love to be, well, I wanted to be tied up in a glass box.

Yes.

And I loved the idea.

I was consenting to it.

Everyone that would have turned up would have been under, understood my restrictions, my yeses, my my no's um and that's another big thing as well yes and no's are discussed before you start a porn professional porn shoot you go through every you have a sheet and it has every single thing you could imagine like fingering hair pulling slapping and you go through that that's never shown you only see the end result you see the perfect edited part whereas with my content it's very different it's very very consensual and yes there is choking but it's spoke about during it um But yeah, I think porn should be

have restrictions and it should be told, hey, this was done by professional, consent was discussed off-camera.

So then when these young guys are watching it and they go to have sex with another 18-year-old girl that's probably not that confident and going to speak up, in the back of their head, they sort of know the porn they watched did discuss consent and they discussed each other's limits.

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You admit that

you're an unusual person, you're an unusual woman.

Like there are a whole bunch of ways in which your preferences, your personality is like

you're like a far right tail on so many different traits.

Is it really true to say, therefore, that when men watch your content, they're learning about how they should have sex with other women?

Not always, no.

Like my porn really varies.

Like I've still done some of the cliche, or I've had sex with my personal trainer, and I've tripped tripped and suddenly I'm having sex like I still do some of the cliche porn but a lot of my content isn't that um but I'm not also saying oh come and watch me for a sex education lesson and I wouldn't be the right person at this moment in time to educate properly on sex because I could say something which contradicts that but I do think more things

especially porn or whether that's at school or university should be discussed about consent, sex, people's different limits, things they enjoy.

Because everyone just gets embarrassed about the conversation.

Your parents might say, Look, don't have sex, or you have to wear a condom, and that's sort of as far as it goes.

We're very naive to think, one, they're not having sex before 18, that they're not watching stuff online, um,

and they don't know what they're doing.

So, teach them

nearly two-thirds, about 64% of men under age 25, support making it harder to access pornography online, up for 51%

in 2013.

If young people are becoming more conservative about sex and pornography, how come Bonnie is still breaking records?

Well, I guess even though you

earn so much money, like you've still got your audience is not all men by any means, right?

You've got a fairly small number of men who are supporting you.

I also sense there's this move against from the younger men, there's this move, and women as well against porn.

And I suspect that that comes from the fact that these are, say, Zoomers who've grown up on the internet.

What does Zoomers mean?

Like, born this century.

Okay.

They were brought up on the internet.

They were exposed to porn really young ages.

I mean, it's often like, I think average age is 11 for boys, something like that.

Crazy.

And so, and they'll often be exposed to really extreme stuff.

And it's, it's damaged them psychologically and sexually in that they, I mean, like what we were talking about earlier with sometimes weird tastes escalating, but also often, say, struggling with erectile dysfunction when you're actually in the room with, like, if you've trained yourself on porn and on your own hand,

when you're then in the room with a real woman, you might not be able to get it up.

For sure.

Or having unrealistic expectations, just not being able to find normal women as attractive because you've become used to watching women like you.

And I think that a lot of men have just learnt from their own personal experience and just purely selfishly, like regardless of whether or not porn is fair trade, they've learned that actually it's bad for them.

Yeah.

And it's probably bad for everyone.

Like, I mean, when it comes to porn addiction, for instance, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

It's a a terrible thing.

Because I think even with porn, like you mentioned, then they think unrealistic body shapes because they're looking at these women that, no, we do it for a job.

Well, it's not a job in most people's eyes, but they also shouldn't do that, though, that because that's stupid.

Because probably the porn they're watching, their penis is probably half the size of that, and nor do they have a chiseled six-pack.

So,

yeah, it is terrible when some guys can no longer get hard because they've watched so much porn or they have unrealistic expectations of women.

And they shouldn't, because one, they don't most probably don't perform like a porn star.

But I'm not saying porn is the answer for everything.

It's there's a much bigger issue, problem.

But I don't think banning porn is the solution of that.

I just think it should be better regulated and more conversations about just sex in general, whether you can't get hard, you struggle to stay hard, you come really quickly, or maybe you don't come at all.

It should just be more of a conversation and less taboo.

So people become less embarrassed by talking about it.

But should people watch more porn?

Because there's quite a big chunk of the population that don't watch porn at all.

Probably more varied porn.

You shouldn't always just watch one type of porn.

That's not going to be the issue, though.

If you're talking about people who are being educated and getting used to sex in general, a power user or even a normal user of porn.

Yeah.

I'm not convinced that they need a varied diet.

What we're talking about is like one big group of people who don't use porn at all.

And then this other group of people who, some of whom continue to use it healthily, and then some of whom sort of tumble down these darker rabbit holes.

You could say that with anything,

alcohol, chocolate.

Like it's,

you can't summarize what one person can do.

I could easily have a couple of drinks and stop.

Another person can't do that.

They're going to, you know, finish the whole bar.

Well, gambling might be a good comparison because obviously gambling is legal in this country.

But we know that there are, it hasn't always been.

There's been periods where it's been banned.

And there are certain things which are banned, like the really

sort of predatory end of the gambling industry.

we know that things like the apps can be really addictive, and people ruin their lives gambling.

Like, they'll lose the family, home, their marriages will break down, everything.

And so,

I certainly think there should be regulation.

I think most people do.

If you're, you know, I guess in this comparison, like, you're like the gambling boss who owns, who owns the app that's like

normalizing this, bringing this into everyone's homes.

Like, is there not some sense of responsibility?

Like, he's obviously just, he's playing by the rules, he's obeying the law.

But it's if I had a subscriber saying to me, like, look, I've spent so much money on you this month.

I'm gonna, I can't afford to pay my mortgage, I can't afford the food shop.

100% I'd be like, Look, let's just chat, stop spending so much money on me.

I clearly want you to be able to pay your bills and do your food shop.

So, yeah, when I'm speaking to guys online and they'd, you know, just sometimes disclose very personal information with me, I would never want to put them in a difficult or vulnerable situation, but I can't be responsible.

Have you got on that?

Have you got an opinion on the financial domination industry?

Are you familiar with this?

About where like syndoms.

Yeah, so like girls will, like a guy will pay for a girl's life and then like completely rinse their bank account.

Yeah, I mean, it goes even more extreme than that.

That

the end of this is typically guys will get their paycheck and then immediately send all of it to a girl who drip feeds money back to him as he begs for his own money back.

Oh, yeah.

Now it's this very odd, is this consent?

Is this an addiction?

Like you are transferring this to them.

Yeah.

A lot of the time, the girls that are doing this will have compromising material.

I know a friend that was at university with me who was doing this with a guy, and she had videos of him coming in a cheeseburger and then eating it.

And he was married.

He was begging her to have one pound so that he could put some fuel in the car.

And she says, there's 50p, get the bus to work.

And his bank account has nothing in.

His wife is completely unaware that this is happening again with that consenting adults this seems to be you know there is the i'm trying to find where your limit yeah like morally for me i wouldn't be happy with that but that's just the word moral in this conversation right yeah yeah morally like that's not for me that that isn't something i'd enjoy i wouldn't like that i'm not doing this for power you know what's interesting that uh a lot of what you talked about in the very beginning your justification was around finances yeah so we may have managed to find something close to the bullseye of where where your sort of sensitivity sits, which is.

Yeah, don't make people poor, Chris.

Exactly.

Yeah, you may play with my private parts, but not my bank account type thing.

This was wanting people to be happy, but then it's weird I say that because that guy clearly enjoys that.

And I have got some friends that will absolutely rinse guys for money.

And their sort of argument, which is true, if it wasn't them, it'd be someone else.

And at least then they know they're going to do it in a very controlled situation.

But for me, I just wouldn't feel comfortable with that.

And everyone is really different.

You found a limit.

Congratulations.

For me, I just, it stressed me out.

Um, and it wouldn't sit comfortably with me.

Loads of things will.

I'll take virginities.

I'll sleep with 18-year-olds.

And those girls would probably say, God, that's disgusting.

I wouldn't feel comfortable with that.

But for me, I'd be stressed and be going to sleep thinking, oh my God, like, what if the wife needs to buy some emergency shoes?

What do you think that Bonnie has lost by doing what she does?

Especially on dignity.

Has she lost anything?

You've lost lost some future choices.

Obviously, you've gained a lot of choices in terms of your finances.

But there are now all sorts of things like, you couldn't become a teacher, would just be one example.

No, but imagine how irritating that would be.

What, a salary of 25K and 20 days annual leave?

Like, I'm guessing you wouldn't necessarily want to, but like, there are certain things.

If you ever end up having children,

I mean, have you thought about that, the impact that that will have on them in terms of everyone knowing what their money is?

I've not thought about it really deeply.

It is a question I've been asked before.

I would like children in the future, I think.

Yes, it's going to be difficult and horrible for them, for sure, at moments, but they're also going to have the most beautiful life.

And I know money doesn't buy happiness, but it will buy me so much time with them.

I know for most of my friends that still work, their children go to childcare full-time.

They miss their first steps, their first words.

They can't be there for all their school holidays.

They only go on one quality holiday a year.

And for some people, that's fine.

But when I, if I'm lucky enough to have children, I'll be able to take them around the world.

They'll be able to.

Can you be a stay-at-home mum?

Yeah.

I'd be more than happy to be a stay-at-home mum.

If I wanted to tread wife pipeline.

For sure.

Yeah.

And I have no issue with that.

But for me, the memories I'd be able to give my children.

And even in terms of health care and the life they'd live and the security they'd have, they'd be able to do whatever they want in their life as well.

They'd have enough money to either invest or never work if they don't want to work or maybe they want to do charity work.

Or like a lot of people, when you like sort of don't have money, you sort of just go into a job.

But if you actually had all the money, you'd take a lot longer, I think, in choosing what you want to do or what you want to achieve with your life.

And I'll be able to offer my children that.

But of course, it's going to come with backlash and comments.

But whether you're too pretty, you're ugly, skinny, fat, your mum might drive a weird car, kids get bullied on.

So I think it'd be stupid.

There are levels to this game, though.

For sure.

Like, oh my God, your mum's body blowing, she's up with a thousand people.

But

it's, yeah,

they will get picked on.

What do you reckon?

What do you reckon is the percentage likelihood of you having a family in future?

Future discussions, I'd say, quite high.

I'd say very likely.

Before, I was very fixated on having children and having a family because I, because of society, thought, okay, you sort of finish school, maybe you go to university, you get a job, you find a partner, you get married, you get a house, you have a couple of children, and that's what I just thought life was.

And as a whole, that is, if someone said to you, right, describe life, that is what you would sort of say.

That's also what you're made-to-believe happiness is.

Everyone looked at me because I had all of that before, but no children, thinking, God, you must be so happy.

You live the most amazing life.

And I thought, I'm with the wrong person.

Like, I'm happy, but I'm not in love with him, or I live this life and it looks perfect, but it's not for me.

Um,

and yeah, it took me a while to realize that, but

I realized it, and that's the main thing.

Do you think you'd have taken the same path in life if you'd had kids with your ex-husband?

I probably would have done some sort of sex work later on, but probably not when the children were still young.

And I probably would have lived off my husband's wage for a few years, would have gone to go back to work.

I thought, you know what, I don't want to.

I want flexibility.

Because that's the other thing this, you know, sex work offers.

You don't have to be very public with it.

Like when I did cam work, I could have done that and no one would have known.

Or you don't even have to show your face or you could wear a mask.

Like sex work isn't always extreme.

There's a lot of people that do sex work alongside a normal job and no one ever knows and it's just a bit of extra cash so they can go on nicer holidays um so yeah i probably would have always done it because it gave me instant flexibility and i know you could do multiple other things and get that but it's also not very realistic

what's the what's the biggest downside from you being famous i've heard you talk about uh not really going out alone anymore for instance yeah like i have security but that's I think that got sort of not twisted, but people thought it's because people are horrible to me or it's, you know, I can't go out without someone shouting something negative.

It's the complete opposite.

It's because I can't walk anywhere without people swaming for photos, people coming up saying hi.

And that's men and women, families.

The women are probably, I say, the worst, but they're the ones that are coming up non-stop.

I even have mums with children under the age of 18 saying, Can you grab a photo for my son?

Or can we grab a family photo with you?

What do the women say that aren't the mums with the kids under 18?

A lot of screaming, like, oh my God, I can't believe it's you.

Oh, I love your content.

I love your videos.

I've seen you online.

um

it's honestly i've received near enough zero hate in person surprising louise

i think it's not surprising in person because i think in general people um most people don't want to be negative to someone in the flesh like if you're doing they've probably seen me say hi then they're like oh i hate that girl like i'm not saying that they're talking positively about me but even some of these families and some of these families I literally slate online saying, yeah, you stay at home, you don't do anything, you complain.

And then I sometimes, I was at the airport recently and I saw a family, and it looked like the exact family.

I mean, this is me judging that I slate online.

I thought, oh, here we go.

And there's quite a out, you know, speaking very loud.

And I thought, oh, they're going to say something.

And instead, there's like, oh my God, can my husband grab a photo with you?

Oh, we find you so funny.

And it just makes me realize like the hate you get online.

I'm probably the most

hated people in the UK, if not,

you know, across all countries at times.

But in person,

I am very very much loved.

So the security isn't because I can't leave the house scared.

It's just because I need to be able to get somewhere and I get completely swamped for photos.

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Chris and I were talking earlier about the fact that we're both very like, we don't like negative feedback.

We don't, we're quite, we're quite sensitive, right?

Like we don't, and like for me, I find this, your ability to just withstand that level of, to say something like, I'll probably the most hated woman in Britain and be quite chill about it.

I find almost as confusing as your ability to not be repulsed by a bunch of fat ugly men.

I don't know where it's come from.

I don't.

You always like that?

No, I'd say I've not always.

cared what people thought, but I've never been this much,

you know, oblivious.

Well, not oblivious, but so much I don't care.

clipping about it yeah like I don't know where it's come from and my sister she's really sensitive like one of the hate comments the other day was like oh that bed sheet I did like a day in the live vlog and I was at home and they said oh her bedding was from Sheen and it made her cry like she's very sensitive um

like

she really likes that bedding okay um

but yeah I'm just not bothered I think it's because I know I'm happy I know everyone I sort of work with speak with are happy so I'm like why am I bothered about hate comments?

And one of the biggest comments I get is that, oh, I'm actually 47.

And I think, how am I going to be bothered about you judging my age?

Or recently it went viral that I'm apparently transgender.

And all these hate comments are just completely made up.

And I find it more amusing than I do hurtful.

Do you ever get, I know, I personally, the criticisms I dislike the most are the criticisms that I think are probably true.

Like

when they're ridiculous, I think, or whatever, but when they're a bit close to the bone, they hurt more.

Do you ever, are there ever criticisms you get which do sting a little bit because they're a bit true?

I mean, I get called flat-chested and stuff a lot sometimes.

And yeah, I have got small boobs, but I'm not bothered by that.

I think.

Do you have body anxieties?

Because obviously you're just like endlessly naked in the film.

Well, like the top I was men of wear today was strapless, but I have eczema sometimes on my arms.

I was like, oh, actually, I don't fancy wearing that today.

It's like I clearly do care, but not to the point where I used to.

Like when I first moved to Australia, I actually wore a lot of oversized t-shirts.

I didn't always want to go to the beach.

I felt quite insecure and I was sort of bothered.

Yet, when I started this job, and bear in mind, when I did that, no one cared what I looked like, no one was giving me hate, no one was saying anything.

Yet, when I started this job, even though I started receiving hundreds and hundreds of hate comments, I became more confident than ever because the positive for me outweighed every negative comment.

You are aware that that's very non-typical for humans, right?

That we remember the criticisms and forget the compliments.

We have a negativity bias, and it seems like you've managed to do some sort of Gryffindor only drinks into that which makes it stronger thing.

Yeah.

And yeah, like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu,

what for most people would be a catastrophic amount of criticism.

Do you think you get more hate than love?

Online, yes, for sure.

In person, completely different.

But it depends what platform you go on.

Like my Twitter is very positive.

But if you go on like TikTok, especially like my backup accounts or my, like my main accounts is very positive, but you go on my additional accounts, they're very negative.

So it really depends what you're sort of clicking on.

Um, but there's not many things I want people to take away from me, but it's just don't care, don't live your life by judgment.

And it's like when you went to school, I don't know if you ever fell out with your friends, or you was like, oh my God, my friend at school today, I'm going to be sat by myself at lunch.

And your parents are like, look, just don't care what people think, or you're just at school, it doesn't matter.

And then you come away from school and you realize how silly it was to a certain degree for caring about what people thought about you at school school and if they thought you were popular or not in the popular group.

Yet, even though you realize looking back, that was silly to care, then you then suddenly care about what your colleagues think about you at work.

And then, when you leave that job, you realize how insignificant to a certain degree their opinion was.

But then you keep continuing to stress about your current surroundings.

But I don't care.

And that is genuinely, I think, one of the best things about me is, is I'm not,

I am sensitive, but I'm not sensitive to the point of I'm aware that I'm never going to look back on my life and go, I wish I cared about, I wish I cared less about what people thought about me.

I'm already in that mindset.

And for most people, they can't do that.

They're worried about what their colleagues think or what the family think or what someone they went to school with is going to say about their new car or their job they're in.

I mean, it's such a natural human instinct, though, to care about your, your peer group.

I mean, something that I've

I've often said is that

there are various ways in which men and women are different from one another psychologically and personality-wise and stuff.

And even though there are obviously individual outliers, there are quite big average differences.

And so, for instance, women are less keen on casual sex than men are on average.

And that means that a culture of casual sex is on balance going to be worse for women and better for men.

I think because men focus so much on them, a lot of time in the bedroom, even if it's a one-night stand, they're just thinking.

I think because men physically come as well, it's sort of so focused on them.

And a lot of women, like, especially myself when I first started i didn't feel confident enough to speak up to be like actually can you do it a bit softer can you you know yeah to go a little bit to the left it's partly that it's also partly that actually most women do have

most women do not fancy like really do not fancy the vast majority of men yeah like they do not want to have sex with the vast majority of men their threshold is really high in terms of who they're willing to to sleep with um and you're of course not like that as we've discussed but i've always said like i don't think that our current sexual culture is on balance very good for women in general.

Yeah.

But that I, I believe that there surely is, like, some unicorn woman out there who is perfectly suited to the sex industry.

And I think maybe you're it.

Like, I think you've got every trait necessary in order to withstand it and do well by it.

Um, I guess the problem is not everyone

you have to spend a long time talking to you to realize that that's true and to realize quite how unusual you are.

And because I feel bad when other sex workers try and

either do the same or think, God, for me to be a successful sex worker, I need to do that.

And that's really famous.

Right.

Who I think we all agree is suffering from this, actually.

You're a real one in maybe seven billion kind of guys.

You are kind of like the LeBron James of sociosexuality and disgust sensitivity.

If I ever find a boyfriend, I'll have to tell him I'm one in seven million.

Seven billion, seven billion.

Yeah.

But I mean, you do get quite a lot of backlash from people within the porn industry, right?

Oh, yeah, most of them hate me.

Yeah, why do they hate you?

Yeah, why is it?

One, I've made their fake fuck a fan content so irrelevant.

Um, they used to think, oh, faking I've had sex with one stranger was going to be the biggest thing of their career.

And I've sort of just highlighted, one, it was fake, and second of all, it's I'll do a thousand, shut up about your one.

But they

just say I'm some of them have said I've promoted rape culture, that it's dangerous, it's making their subscribers ask for more extreme content.

And I get that, and I do feel sorry for them, but if things are changing or your subscribers are no longer interesting you, that's not my fault.

That's a you problem.

You can't blame me for everything.

I mean,

it is difficult if you say sex is a resource to be traded like any other and then capitalist market dynamics get applied to that, which you have stepped into.

It is very difficult to say I should not be subject to the same supply, demand and competition curbs that every other industry is, if you accept that going in.

Now, I think the problem is that people get this sort of crossover.

And this is something that Mary's written about, which is the world is at a weird intersection at the moment that sex is

simultaneously

completely meaningless and can be done casually and doesn't have anything

beyond the physical action attached to it.

You can sleep with them and not catch feels.

And also, if done incorrectly, can be the single most traumatic event of your life that never changes, that you're never able to recover from.

And squaring the circle is difficult.

And I think this is where it kind of meets when you actually see the raw economics of this, that you think, well, if

consenting

workers within that industry are having to up their consensual work ethic, work rate, level of work extremity, it would be like having a salesperson who is particularly unbelievable at sales because of one specific tactic, but this tactic is very taxing on their body, and very few people can go and do it.

And now everybody else has got to try and do the same sales tactic.

Yeah.

It is difficult to come up with some sort of ethical grounding where you can defend that that isn't permissible within the rules that that system already had.

Does that make sense?

Do you agree with that?

I mean, I honestly sort of think that actually, as someone who is critical of porn and sex and the sexual revolution and everything,

you're almost doing my job for me because you're highlighting, you're taking everything to its logical conclusion Yeah, and highlighting that there are fundamental problems with this worldview You're like it's very hard for there's a lot of people who say that they are in favor of sexual liberation and pornography and so on, yeah, but they're not in favor of Bonnie Blue It is the reductio ad absurdum thing for everything

I do think you can be and then see me as too far like I also think that's fine like I'm not saying you could agree with porn this when you see me and say you have to agree like you can completely agree with porn and then look at me and think that's too far and that is okay.

Everyone's got their their own opinions.

It's just when people try to give me facts, I'm like, you're not speaking factual, you're speaking opinion.

Um,

but yeah, there's many, many issues with the sort of I guess industry.

And a lot of content creators say,

um, you know,

they're just no longer relevant, and that's, and that's my fault.

But it's not, I get social media banned all the time.

I get new restrictions.

I have new issues, and probably more issues than any other sex worker because I'm so big and so outspoken.

I get bans that other content creators don't get just because they don't have the techniques I do.

But I adjust and I change and that's what you should be doing with any job or any situation you're in.

If you're hitting restrictions, work around it or you change your technique.

Are you worried about Bonnie as a mother?

I would definitely worry if you were still doing it.

Yeah.

I mean, certainly like bringing punters into the home.

I'm guessing you probably wouldn't do that.

No.

Like even now, I never film at home.

I always film at a venue.

Um, and I have filmed at home before, but I no longer enjoy that.

I was like, no, I know what my home is, you know, I want to keep my home my home, and I want to be able to separate from that.

And not that I've ever needed that separation, but I'd always liked the fact if I needed it, I'm not somewhere where I think, you know, well, I've just been gangbanged on this sofa, it's a separate place, and I can, if I need a break, I've got the opportunity to have that.

You could probably go quite a long way in sort of transforming your identity to protect the kids from the backlash at school.

Different, I mean, Bonnie Blue obviously isn't your real name anyway, right?

But

how are you going to talk to them?

How would you talk to them about how you earn a living, how you've got this amazing house?

You know, no idea.

But we're a very early age.

I know that'd be a very young age for them because whatever age you think your either kids start swearing or they start saying different things at the playgrounds or start watching content, it's probably a lot younger.

So it would really depend on the society in at that moment in time.

Like you said, the current age is 11.

That might might go even, even younger.

I don't know how the conversation would go, to be honest.

I don't know what would be,

you know, depends how long, if I'm no longer in the industry, how much is still out there, how much I'm still being spoken about, how much I would have to disclose.

I definitely would want to disclose everything.

I'd never want anyone telling my children or surprising them with what I do.

I'd want them to hear it from me.

And that's sort of how I deal with my family at the moment.

Anything I plan to do or anything I do, they hear it from me.

Even with, I did a documentary recently and it showed a lot of sex.

It showed

a lot of the gangbangs, a lot of the things I get up to.

And I actually took my family to the screening.

And some of the journalists was disgusted that my, I'd taken my family there.

And it was hard to watch it with them for sure.

It was.

Did you know it was going to be as explicit as it was?

I'd watched a rough edit and I knew there was going to be sex in there.

I did not know it was going to be as explicit as it was.

And I was thinking during it, like I was sat next to my dad, my grandma was there, my mum, my sister, her boyfriend.

And there was times I couldn't look at the screen.

I had my head.

What was that sensation that came up for you?

It was me showing my pussy saying I've just been railed by X amount of people.

No, that's what was on the screen.

What was the sensation that came up for you when you were sat in the seat?

I just felt a bit sick.

And it wasn't because of what I'd done.

It was just,

this is the first time my family have really been exposed to this right now when they're sat front row in like the cinema room and they've got journalists behind them.

I'm trying, I'm going to just keep my sort of foot on this point for a second.

Yeah.

Beyond feeling sick,

what was the emotion that came up?

Like, what did you, what was the feeling?

What was the sense beyond physically how it manifested in your body?

I was just hoping like my dad was okay.

Like, I think...

Again, that's not an emotion.

Yeah, but I, apart from literally feeling sick and thinking, like, oh my gosh, I hope my dad's okay.

That was all that was going through my mind and what I was feeling.

What were you worried he might feel

um

i don't know like potentially be disgusted potentially think this is humiliated yeah you mentioned that row so they've got journalists looking at them towards that feeling of like

journalists behind yeah it was it was hard and i would just like i always want to protect my dad like my dad is super sweet and

I don't wrap him in bubble wrap at all.

They're fully aware of what I do and to the extreme and they're fully supportive.

But yeah, during the whole documentary, I was sort of like, oh, I felt so nervous.

I just wanted to say to him, like, how do you feel?

Are you okay?

Like, okay, so you did feel nervous there.

The reason that I say it is

I want my family to be proud of me.

And I was worried them seeing that might

taking that feeling away.

But there was other parts of the documentary, my mom, dad, my grandmother, they're all laughing, they're finding it funny and they're happy.

And the other parts, they just looked away.

But I'm really glad they watched it because their friends are going to have watched it.

Everyone in that town would have watched it.

And if anything was to say anything to them, they're not going to be shocked or surprised because they've watched it and they know what to expect.

And that's how I'd, I guess, I would treat my children is just always being very transparent with them and sort of not hiding things from them because I know they'll find out.

How do you feel about your daughter doing what you do for a living?

If I had a daughter, I would explain, look,

I'm very different.

Most people are going to be very hurt by this.

They're not going to be able to deal with this mentally and physically.

But if they wanted to do that, I would not disown them.

I wouldn't be like, no, don't do it.

Like I said, the main reason I got into it originally was money.

Yes, that has shifted, but they would have so much money and so much opportunity to do anything they wanted.

And not many people are like me.

So I can't imagine my daughter would want to do it.

just because

you know not many people do you're the lebron james appointment yeah

But if they did do that, as long as they understood, it's not, because I think sometimes I make it look very easy.

I make it look like it's a breeze in a parking because for me, that is.

And I think that's what can be damaging on society, or it can be hard for people online because they see me going, oh, I earn loads of money and I'm really happy and I love my life.

Most people try and copy it.

They're traumatized.

The families are upset.

So yeah, it's just making them aware it's I do say it's easy because I think of my dad working hard.

He worked two jobs.

he worked night shifts, he had to work in terrible weather conditions.

I'm like, that's hard work.

Me lying on my back

ain't that hard, so it's not hard, but it is hard.

I was just thinking of that scene in Black Adder.

Do you remember in Black Adder?

Goes the second series, the Tudor one, where it starts off with a man who's saying, Oh, daughter, we're so poor, blah, blah, blah.

And she says, Yes, father, I'm going to go to London.

I'm going to make my fortune.

He says, No, I want you to go on the game.

Just make a living lying on your back.

It's so much easier.

What would you think about your son having sex with a future Bonnie Blue aged 18?

Yeah, I'd be recommending it.

You'd be recommending it.

100%.

18 year olds, when they lose their virginity, it's an unsafe environment.

They've probably been drinking.

They're under the influence.

They haven't discussed consent.

They haven't discussed the choking, the hair pulling, and all of that.

And that could be damaging for him.

The next day, it could be the girl comes forward and says, but you hurt me.

Or it can just be damaging for them because they're made to feel insecure or they're laughed at for whatever reason.

Them being sent to a sex worker is a very safe, controlled environment.

Would you worry about your son?

Because you've said you're an outlier.

Would you worry about your son contributing to the trauma of that woman?

Because most sex workers are not like you personally.

I'd probably want to know who they're going to, because you could also go to a sex worker.

That's just an escort and they don't do the crazy things I do.

Or like, do you mean every single person is different and

I'd want to help them.

Because yeah, I wouldn't want them to go into someone that absolutely hates it and is doing it purely for the money and they feel traumatized from it.

So I'd want to help the guy and make sure they go to a good sex worker.

What would you say if your children of either sex,

say they became religious and they decided that actually they wanted to wait until marriage to lose their virginity and do it the traditional way?

What would you say to that choice?

That's fine.

Like, I think it's sometimes it's lovely when people are really religious.

I don't have an issue with it.

I don't, I personally will never be religious.

But yeah, if they wanted to, they would.

Never say never, Bonnie.

That might be the new challenge.

I'm burning in this building right now.

But it's,

yeah, if they became religious, I mean, I can't imagine my children would.

But if they did, that's fine.

I think those that do, I think, oh my God, that sex you've thought about for about, I don't know, 25 years is going to be terrible.

It isn't going to be good.

I remember you.

I think you were quoted in an article saying, I have never confirmed I was pregnant because I would never, ever lie about pregnancy.

Bonnie Bonnie added, saying that doing so would be a step too far.

Yeah.

There doesn't seem to be many lines where you would draw and say this is a step too far with your self-promotion, with the things that you would do, the things that you would say.

You've already mentioned I curate my TikTok 10-second hooks to be as annoying to women as possible.

What is it?

about pregnancy that's sufficiently sacred that I would never ever lie about it.

Doing so would be a step too far.

I tried for many, well, about a year and a half with my partner to get pregnant, and I was unsuccessful.

And I found out if I wanted to conceive, it had to be through IVF,

which was really hard, especially at the time.

I would not have had the money to go through IVF.

I would have had to save up for a couple of years.

And when your friends around you are having children and everyone's falling pregnant so naturally, it was very hurtful to continue to try and even buy all the ovulation tests to help my chances.

It was really expensive and I couldn't afford to keep to keep doing it.

So yeah, the press in a nutshell, I think this was like shortly after the thousand was, there was rumors saying I was pregnant.

It started off on TikTok, then it was on Twitter and then Instagram.

Kelly Phillips was doing the same thing, if I remember correctly.

Well, yeah, the rumors had started about me on TikTok and all these other social media platforms.

And then journalists started reaching out saying,

we want you to comment on your pregnancy.

And we just ignored it for a couple of days thinking, well, we're not commenting.

I'm not pregnant.

I don't know where this is coming from.

And it just continued to escalate.

So then I decided, okay, let's play into this.

And then we'll use the extra income we get from the more press, the more views to put towards somebody's IVF journey.

So the only thing I did do was upload a photo on my Instagram story of a pickle covered in chocolate and sprinkles and put cravings.

And then the following day, it was, oh, Bonnie confirmed she's pregnant.

Oh, Bonnie's comment on the fact she's pregnant.

And I hadn't.

Like, there was already 10, 20, 30 articles saying I was pregnant, even though I hadn't commented, I hadn't said anything.

And that's obviously hurtful.

Like, I was fine with it, but I knew I couldn't get pregnant.

I knew I couldn't fall pregnant naturally.

So that obviously wasn't very nice.

And then I think like 48 hours after that, I did a YouTube video and just said, look, hey, I'm not pregnant.

I uploaded one video for pickle.

The journalist seemed to think it's okay to make stories up about a woman and a woman's body without understanding my situation.

Sensitive for you.

Yeah, for sure.

And I can't get pregnant and I'm going to use this money.

And I have paid for two people's IVF journals

since then.

Do you think, I remember thinking when you did the thousand

that the most reliable contraception on the market, which is the marina IED, it has a one in a thousand failure rate.

Right.

But I guess if you know that actually you can't conceive naturally, do you, it doesn't cross your mind even though, I mean, obviously the men went.

Because it's not impossible.

Condoms fail.

Yeah, for sure.

It's not impossible.

But yeah, the chances would be beyond simple.

So if they're less than one in a thousand, then yeah, it'd be beyond sim for me to sort of fall pregnant.

So yeah, that's where the whole

pregnancy thing came from.

And that's what I said would be sort of be too far.

And even that I got back bashed when I then went and did a bit of a press, you know, I think went to Daily Mail and a few other articles,

a few other places, and just did some general press.

I think I was heading to spring break shortly after that.

And I then they asked me about the pregnancy and I was like, why do you think it was okay to upload a photo of a pickle?

Even though the Daily Mail had already uploaded an article prior to that saying I was pregnant.

And I was like, so it's okay for you to say it and to apparently confirm I'm pregnant.

But then when I upload a photo of a pickle, I'm the one in the wrong.

I then mentioned about the IVF journey and the woman was like, we should just done that without ever uploading the photo of the pickle.

And I've said many times, you don't have to be charitable.

If I want to burn the money on clothes and whatever I want, I will.

But if I also want to help someone out, I will do that as well.

And that's when I think I became very aware of no matter matter what good i do

it will always be twisted even that was put in a very negative light

i'm interested in that

particular area of sensitivity yeah and

you've had uh varying levels of strength of accusation that you're a psychopath or um on other corners of x that you're possessed by demons.

Yeah.

Would you say the reason I asked and kept on pushing about and what did you feel was to try and get that embodied sense from you as somebody who doesn't seem to have much disgust sensitivity, very, yeah, the tail end LeBron James of sociosexuality on the far side.

What, how would people have described you as a kid?

Would you, were you an emotional girl?

Not emotional in terms of crying loads and like really upset, but I've always been really happy.

Like, and I've recently, which has been wrong for me to say, like, oh, I'm not emotional, but it's because every time I say I'm not emotional, I'm referring to me crying and being upset.

And it's because I live a very easy, happy life.

So it's very easy for me to sit here and say, I'm no, I'm not emotional.

But

emotion being happy and smiling and laughing, that's also, so I am emotional.

Like my, I've had the best sort of two weeks of my life and I continue to have the best days I've ever experienced.

And I'm very happy and very smiley.

But a lot of the time that's not shown in like podcasts and interviews because I'm usually being interrogated.

I'm being told I'm disgusting and I'm having to defend myself.

So, of course, I'm not going to be sat there smiling and laughing.

But if you were to watch me,

you know, when I'm at spring break and I'm meeting people, I'm nothing but smiling and happy.

So, people like to pick and choose which parts they analyze me.

Or some of them will say I blinked after I said a certain word, so that means X, Y, and Z, or I looked a certain way.

And it's like, you know, I probably said something in my eye or I got twitchy or I got bored.

Like, people think too much into things.

But I am an emotional person, but not in terms of crying.

The reason I ask is

I wonder how formative those 18 months of trying to get pregnant were.

And it does seem like a bit of an inflection point in your life.

And maybe this is just part of a marriage that wasn't right and a bunch of things coalesced at the same time.

Maybe you did get some sort of realization.

Maybe this was one realization that caused a bunch of different torpedoes to be fired at different areas of your life.

What I'm going to do in terms of a career, what I'm going to do in terms of a future, what I'm going to see myself as, my level of sexual openness, my current partner.

All of that together, plus

I would never ever lie about pregnancy, to me showed potentially

laid an explanation that, hmm, how much of this is the

blast radius of fuck, I really wanted kids and it turned out that I couldn't couldn't get them.

And I'm now

coping.

Yeah, I completely see that.

But I, if I wanted to be with my ex, I could have been.

If I then wanted to get, pay for IVF, I'm in a situation where I could pay for it for myself now.

So if it was I was still doing this because I'm trying to pay for IVF or I'm wanting my ex back, I'd completely agree, but I couldn't get the divorce through quicker.

And I'm not in a situation at the moment.

I don't want children.

I was so fixated back then because I was actually missing happiness in my life.

I think I'm to a certain degree grateful I didn't fall pregnant because my life would have been very different.

And as much as children bring a lot of happiness, for me, I think I was more doing it because all my friends was.

I just got married.

Everyone was asking me a lot, including my family.

Like,

when are you going to have children and when you're going to start a family for yourself?

And I think I just started to think, okay, I don't feel overly happy.

What's missing?

Oh, it's children.

Really, it was having freedom, flexibility, traveling, and doing all the things I wanted to do, but I kept thinking I was too old to do, or oh, I've passed that now, or I can't just go traveling around the world and go on crazy holidays.

I've not got the money, or I've not got the time for it.

I presume that this period of trying to get pregnant was before you started camming.

Yes.

Do you think then that going into

because you talked about how actually before then you had a low body count and actually you were pretty like sexually conservative?

Do you think that learning about your infertility changed your whole attitude towards sex made it more like a hobby because obviously that is the way that humans come into the world is through sex it has it's in we were all conceived in that way for sure apart from ivf you know but that's a recent thing um

so there is an obviously meaningful consequential thing built into it but if it can't lead to conception do you think do you think that's fed into your feeling that it's just a hobby it doesn't matter commoditize it whatever uh no completely get where you're coming from but I was never having sex only on my ovulation days, or I was only having sex on the days I thought I was going to conceive.

So, sex, even when I, you know, wasn't trying to get pregnant, was a hobby with my partner.

I did it just for the pleasure.

Um, so no, if I was only having sex prior to that around ovulation, then yeah, I'd completely agree.

But I don't think as much as it was hurtful and it was a very difficult time when I tried to get pregnant, I don't think it's had any knock-on effect.

I mean, to a certain degree, it has because it's made me, I guess, more sensitive towards the subject, which is why I'm so strong about I wouldn't lie on it.

Um, and it's made me want to help people because I think it's horrible that so many people try.

And some people, they've got six kids, they couldn't give a shit, they're not eating properly, they're you know, they're tramps and they can still pop out kids.

And then there's some people that would offer the most beautiful family and beautiful homes, and they can't unfortunately have children.

So, I guess it made me more sensitive on the subject, but it's not left me then thinking, Oh, I'll do sex as a hobby or change my opinion on sex.

I don't think too deeply on some things.

I take things as they are.

Oh, this made me feel like this.

Okay, great.

Well, I'm going to deal with it.

And then I move on.

I don't drag emotions.

Ultimate Bayesian update thinker there, like just permanently upgrading your worldview.

What

somebody that's dissecting the micro expressions of a porn star, non-typical,

why do you think people are fascinated by the Bonnie Blue question?

I think it's because of your outlier status.

You're so unusual.

I mean, I guess in both senses, that you are almost an outcast as well.

Like, you've chosen this.

You've chosen to be the most hated woman in Britain, your words.

Yeah.

And,

yeah, I mean, you've said a few times in this conversation that you're not intelligent.

I've heard you say that elsewhere.

I think you're actually really intelligent.

I am.

But I'm things that.

Like, you won't want me on a pub quiz.

You won't, I don't, I'm not good at geography and all of that.

Like, and there's loads of things about the world that I probably should know, but I have no interest in.

But you're very quick, yeah.

Like, I'm, if you were to question me on sex, an 18-year-old, the reason I never expert, yeah, I am.

Like, it's because that's what I enjoy, that's what I do each day.

But even with that, these loads I don't know, and I don't pretend to know.

But I get asked sometimes really intelligent questions.

I think, don't understand half the words you've just used, used.

I don't know what's going off, but like, I'm never claiming I know everything.

Like, I simply don't.

Yeah, one of the things I've noticed in how you talk about people is that you'll, you'll be, you'll be so um

non-judgmental about, say, men being fat or all this kind of the physical stuff, et cetera.

Um,

one group, though, that you, you are

consistently judgmental towards are lazy people.

Yeah.

People who don't work, benefit scroungers, you know, that kind of, and they're the ones that complain about life the most.

And I think you lazy shit, get off and do something about it.

Like, unless your arms and legs are chopped off, you can probably get up and do something about it.

And that goes for people other people as well like if you're complaining about something

they're the ones that blame everyone else and they're unhappy they're miserable and they take zero responsibility for it like i take responsibility for my actions and i have taken my life in my control and even if i'm talking about to family or friends and they're complaining about something i'm like do something about it don't keep coming to me with the same issues because you're going to have a very blunt answer you're a very high agency person high agency what does that mean in that you you set your mind to something and you just make it happen.

For sure.

And a lot of people aren't like that.

And I wonder, I mean, because so many people are interested in you because they see you as strange and they

confuse them.

Do you feel the other way?

Like, do you ever struggle to empathize with why, say, some women really wouldn't want to have sex in the way that you do, or some people are really upset by negative criticism?

Or do you find more normal people confusing?

No, because I'm actually so normal that I'm not.

Sorry, sorry, Bonnie.

I really need to stop you there.

That's not true.

Like, aside from

the sort of everything we've talked about, yeah.

Yeah.

My day-to-day life, you would be amazed.

Like, if you knew me, say, if you didn't have a phone, you didn't go on the internet and you didn't know I did what I did, and you just knew me as a person, you would never add up me as a person does this because I am surprisingly normal.

I always say I'm just a girl.

I'm actually very simple with what I enjoy.

I'm not high maintenance.

What do you spend your money on?

Because you've got so much.

Like, do you have really expensive toasts?

I spend a lot on fashion.

Like, I really enjoy

sort of the fashion side of things, memories.

Like, I would sell every single item of clothing I have to make memories.

Like, I recently went to the Maldives and went to Snorkel, and it was the most beautiful experience.

Like, I'd always choose memories over anything materialistic.

But it's hard to burn through so much money, to be honest.

So, I save a lot.

I remember, look,

Chelsea Ferguson.

Do you remember her?

I recognize the name.

AdmireMe.vip.

She was the girl that founded that, which was an early British competitor to OnlyFans.

Oh, okay, yeah.

Charles Fergo.

I'm dating myself a little bit here, but she was sort of the Geordie Shaw world of this.

She was huge on Snapchat, and she was like a proto-Bonnie Blue

in one way.

I'll never forget that she did a stunt that was her outside of her brand new four-bed, new build house in Darlington, somewhere in the northeast of the UK.

And there was a brand new range and a brand new land, a brand new Lambo.

And the front of the number plates on both sides were Chell's Fergo, you know, some custom number plate.

And it said, all this from showing pictures of my fanny helped me put petrol in my Lambo at myme.vip/slash chellsfogo.

So

the rage bait drive clicks through

flash on lifestyle, and that's in some ways more materialistic.

I don't know if I've ever seen you you flex wealth.

Like, I mean, I've got a Ferrari and I posted that because it was quite fun.

Like, the number plate spells porn, the seats say bonnie blue.

Uh, the whole thing is blowed up.

You went very subtle with it.

Yeah, like it's like a work thing.

Like, if that gets spotted around, people take photos, you upload it online.

Okay, yeah, business expense.

The first thing I asked was, like, does it fit through McDonald's drive-through?

Since they've said, no, I've never driven it.

Um, I've got no interest in it.

I posted that, but aside from that, I don't like

share a lot of the things that I sort of spend my money on.

Like, I want to post a bit more about fashion and clothes because I know if I was watching that as a girl, I've been treated on, oh, how much like I'll go and drop on a shopping trip like 50K and I don't think anything of it.

It's just a normal shopping trip.

Whereas that would have been a house deposit plus more when I was younger.

What do you reckon you'll net this year?

A lot of money.

A very comfortable living.

Can you get anywhere close in a range?

No, but I live a nice life, is what I would say.

I've heard you say that I think this is in the channel four dog, so it would have been filmed a little while ago, that you were currently, you were at the time earning a million a month and your goal was to earn five million a month.

Yeah.

And I thought listening to that, once you're at a million a month,

like what else what are you going to spend the rest of that money upon?

It becomes just a numbers game at that point.

For sure.

Like, I've always said I want to hit five million.

I think I will hit five mill a month at some point.

But if it came at a cost of my happiness, I'd stop because my life, ever since I started earning a certain bracket, didn't really change.

Maybe when I went from, you know, 50K a month to 400, there was a big difference.

And then 400 to the million, probably a bit.

But even that, there wasn't much for change.

I don't have, like, yes, I have expensive taste and I do burn through money quite quickly, but the main thing I want is just happiness and memories.

And yes, you do need money for some memories.

Like some of the trips I went on was, you know, we hired the boat for the day and I didn't think anything of it.

Just, yeah, of course, I'll hire the boat.

No, I don't want other people on the boat, I want it to myself.

And things like that is what I'm beyond grateful for.

I'm like,

if I was ever having a tough day, I'd look back at things like that and think,

how lucky am I?

And lucky is not always the best word because no one's given me this.

But I do just feel every day so lucky and so grateful to have the people around me I do and the life I live.

I don't know.

I just, to most people, I live the most disgusting life, but to me, I couldn't wish for a more beautiful life.

Beautiful life, Louise?

To each their own, I suppose.

I believe you when you say that.

It's just, it's just the wider effect.

For sure.

I think it helps that I'm selfish because I don't care.

Like, you know, if someone's saying, look, you're having a really bad knockoff effect, you've ruined my marriage.

I'll be putting on my flippers and snorkel on thinking, that's your problem.

You never get that, like,

tummy-broiling, hands shaking, like feeling.

You never feel

nervous in conflict or those kind of physical sensations.

If someone were to say something like that to you, you've ruined my life, Bonnie.

No, I'd say, like, I'd want to understand why, maybe.

But you'd be steady like a

top surgeon.

It'd be more like, I'm going to understand why, but it's not me.

I didn't do it.

The fact I don't know your name shows I didn't ruin your life.

I didn't.

There's something, there's a lack of, I think most things is communication.

Like, if I've ruined your marriage, there's a lack of communication there.

And I'm not saying that's every case, but for most things, whether that's friendships, your job's not worked, your relationship's not worked, it's simple.

It's communication.

You were about to say, can I ask?

Can I ask a basic question?

Why did you choose the name Bonnie Blue?

Bonnie's quite an old lady name.

I know, yeah.

I think it's quite nice.

It's quite traditional.

I wish I could tell you a really interesting story, but I just gave you good porn names.

And it was like a porn translator, not translator.

What's the word?

Generator.

Yeah.

And the the word Bonnie Blue came up.

You put, so I chose Bonnie, and then you chose one from the other side, and it was blue.

But I never knew it was going to be like this.

I thought I was going to be a cam girl.

No one's going to know about it.

But I love the name Bonnie Blue now.

Like, it's,

you know, I guess quite catchy.

It's very easy to remember.

I love the color blue.

Though Bonnie's quite a traditional name.

But yeah, it was.

Honestly, thought

within about two minutes, if that.

What do you think about people that call you a victim a victim of what like these videos i see women all the time on tick tock saying oh she was sexually assaulted as a child oh she's been through all this and i think you're you think i'm sick you're sick you've just found a photo of me on google from when i'm about 10 11 years old and then made up a sex a sex story you've made up that i've been sexually assaulted like How disturbed are you to do that in your spare time?

And the only TikTok I've seen that's really hurt me was a video got uploaded of this woman talking, and in the background was a photo of me and my granddad that passed away saying, Oh, he's sexually assaulted me as a child.

And I think, why?

Why would you ever look at a photo?

You've gone out your way to find that and then make up a story.

And apparently, I'm the disturbed one.

So, yeah, it's

some negative comments.

Do you get you?

Only that,

because that went quite viral.

It's when I like only just sort of just started.

And that made me really think, wow, I've really dragged my family through this because I chose to do this, but

my family didn't.

Bonnie Blue's victimhood status, Louise.

No, I don't think you're a victim.

Yeah.

I think that most women in the sex industry are, at least to some extent.

Like it's a complicated combination.

Yeah.

I do think that you're really unusual.

And

but there is a problem though, right, with that most people don't know that.

They can't tell that.

The fact that you,

it can be very difficult to tell at first glance the difference between, say, you and Nillie Phillips.

Yeah.

And you, yeah, but you think.

I say one smiles, one cries.

I suppose so, but sometimes they leave, sometimes they leave smiles.

Some people can be really good at faking it.

And some people as well, it can be when they're actually in, when they're in it, they...

They get through by convincing themselves that it's okay.

And they will sort of tell themselves a story.

Almost like if you're in an abusive relationship and when you're in it, you'll be like, oh, he loves me.

It's fine.

And then it's only later when you've left it that you're able to realize quite how horrible it was and that's quite a common story in the sex industry yeah um

i mean do you think that there are women who aspire to be like you in terms of the wealth in particular women in the sex industry and who are putting themselves through trauma to try and compete with you not realizing that they just don't have what it takes in terms of the psychology i mean i've seen it online before there's obviously people crying there's been people that have you know been hospitalized yeah um all of which are then given credit because, you know, people see them being vulnerable and they're like, oh my God, that person's crying or that person's gone to hostel.

And then I get the hate because I'm not crying or not being hospitalized.

And it is, it's not easy.

Like, I say it's easy because it's easy for me because it comes very natural and I know my body limits.

But

I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to loads of people.

It's you've got to do what's best for you and you've got to focus on happiness because you could have all the money in the world.

You could have the biggest following.

It's all honestly pointless if you aren't happy.

So I don't think you should ever copy anyone anyone else.

And I think that's how I've been able to stay happy as well because no one's ever done what I've done.

But they've done it afterwards or tried to, but I'm not following anyone.

Like the things I'm even doing this month, no one's ever done before.

So no, I'm not looking at anyone.

What have you done this month?

This month I've just had a Bonnie Blue bang bus made and I'm starting off at Scotland, which is at the top of the country and working my way down.

And I'm going to visit loads of universities to fuck the students.

Right.

So on the road.

I'm not aware of anyone having done that before.

Yeah, it honestly looks really cool.

It's like a

blue.

Of course, blue.

It says Bonnie Blue on it, Bonnie Blue's bang bus in really big writing.

Are there any legal ramifications about that?

No.

I mean, my family is a lot of people.

Imagine you must have a shitot attorney law team for this.

Not really, no.

Like, you have it, as long as I can park up.

I mean, people have sex in the car, don't they?

Not convinced that's legal.

No.

Well, maybe in the hotel or their dorm rooms, they can invite me in.

I would get someone to check that first.

I do think a strong legal counsel might be a good idea.

Well, my point being that

fucking hell.

I have people check things over like before we do it as I say.

You understand, I like to reach limits, so I've got to fully understand where that limit is because everyone wants to arrest me.

Everyone, not the police, but everyone online is like, I phoned the police on her today, I've reported to them.

I'm like, report me for what?

Like, oh my gosh, she slept with a barely legal, the second woman that is legal.

So you're an idiot.

Um, but yeah, I do make sure everything I do is legal because I'd be the first person.

Like, I see some of the TikToks or some of the social media other OF girls or fancy girls do to promote their socials.

I think, God, if I'd have done that, I'd have been arrested instantly, or I would have my socials taken.

Um, I think you get a harder time, you have more haters because

you don't come across as a victim and because you never cry.

That's why I get more hate.

Yeah, you don't garner any sympathy.

Sympathy is such a huge driving force uh so much so that

you saying i am not a victim victim of what uh has not managed to dispel people calling you a victim yeah uh i think it is a shame because so many people are victims and it's taken away from them like focus on them help them like leave me you know i'm too far gone as some people say but I I'm not a victim of anything.

I'm in control and that scares people.

I think a lot of people are desperate to think that you're a victim.

A lot of women.

Yeah.

Because

they are so disturbed at the thought that you actually like it.

Yeah.

And that is okay, but don't make up I'm a victim or don't make up sexual stories from when I was a child.

Like it's fucked up.

Is there anything that you still don't understand

about Bonnie?

I think that you're a marvel of science.

We might have to.

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure, because I'm sure there's something.

We were talking earlier about this, this scan, right?

Where you can check, you know, your cortisol levels and all this sort of stuff to

understand the chemistry of your psychology.

I mean, I would guess, I'd love you to do a big five personality test if you've never done one.

What is that?

It's like the gold standard of psychometric testing for personality.

So it's things like your conscientiousness.

I would guess you're really industrious.

Yeah, I was going to say, do a do a

bit.

I don't know what you say.

It's okay.

Well, Louise will be able to translate it.

Bring it down to work.

Do a big five analysis just based on my guess.

Yeah.

Okay.

So there are five facets, obviously.

Can I add in the fact fact i love animals does that affect her

yeah maybe

um i don't think there's a dimension for loving animals but and i don't mean bestiality before that gets busted i mean like i love animals so the five facets are um openness to experience i think you're off the charts 100 percentile yeah um conscientiousness so meaning like you're how hard you work like showing up on time being really diligent again off the charts extroversion what does that mean you told me like how do you get exhausted from talking to people all day or could could you just talk all day?

No, I could talk.

I get sometimes bored of answering the same questions.

But I did an interview yesterday, and it was the same shit.

Oh, your family don't love you.

Your family this, family that.

And I'm like, look, I'm genuinely bored of it.

Like, I can understand why you'd think it, but like, so I sometimes get bored of answering the same things.

Like, I love that these questions today have been very different.

Usually I sound like a robot.

And it's probably why I become so switched off because as soon as you start the question, usually I already know the answer.

Drop into the scripted thing I've said five times before.

Yeah.

So I think probably you are extroverted, at least quite extroverted yeah agreeable no i think you're deeply deeply disagreeable and that's part of the reason why which which so agreeableness is like your how much you worry about other people's feelings oh okay how selfless you are how how much you're willing to sort of put other people for yourself i think again we're off the charts in the other direction and neurotic

you're probably the least neurotic person i've ever spoken to what does that mean like your sensitivity to negative feelings which you worry about things how depressed you get i mean you're as you say, you're just happy all the time, just kind of happy, and I know everyone thinks.

I honestly, I see many, many videos like she must be so depressed, she must be so unhappy.

And I'm like, I'm, I'm not.

And I know people think I fake it.

And, you know, I could be lying to you, but I'm a very good liar.

So, yeah, and I'm, I'm not.

Like, I wish, I guess, more people could see my life outside of it, but it's not always shown.

I don't always have time to show it.

But I do want to, I guess, make an effort more so to show what happens when I'm not filming or when what happens when I'm not Bonnie Blue or when I'm out in public that I'm not this massively hated person

given the

little logic puzzles that we've stepped through today

on what basis can someone condemn what Bonnie does given the world that we're in well given the world that we're in yeah I don't think that you can condemn Bonnie Blue if you're generally in favor of sexual liberation and the free market and just letting all this stuff rip.

I don't think you can.

I think you just have to accept that Bonnie has followed all this stuff through to the logical end point and is and is winning that game.

Yeah.

If you

I mean, it doesn't bother, it doesn't worry me because I've already thought for years and have always said that actually sexual liberation has some really serious costs,

as does letting the free market rip and so on.

So

yeah, I've really enjoyed talking to you and you're a really likable person.

Same, I like how you're, you know, you don't agree with what I do, but you're very open to listening because I've had, I always say, you don't have to agree.

it's not my job to convince you, and I'm not bothered.

But I always really appreciate when someone can just listen to my side because I'm not just some blonde porn star that's got no brain cells, like, I'm not overly intelligent, but I can explain.

And

the justify is probably not the correct word because I don't need to justify it, but I can explain why I do what I do and why I believe it's acceptable and why it's not damaging.

Um, so it's always

good to have people that can listen.

I'm not saying you're now gonna be queuing up, and I won't lend you a blue ski mask just yet, but it's nice to have an open conversation.

I want to try and finish up by getting you guys to steel man the cases for the other side.

Do you know what that is?

Steelmanning.

So you know straw man?

It's a, I take your argument and I make the weakest version out of it.

Okay.

Steel manning is taking the other side and making the strongest version for that case.

So if you could think of the biggest trade-off or downside of your worldview being successful,

if your perspective and lifestyle was sort of more widely adopted, what would be the most negative externalities?

What's the best case that is anti-Bonnie Blue?

And I guess, Louise, you might be able to start and do what is the best case that's pro-Bonnie Blue?

And also, what are the negative externalities of if you were successful with what you want to have happen?

Yeah, so if I had my way,

I would like criminalize most of what you do and you wouldn't have all this money, right?

So obviously personally.

I'm not sure if you're in prison.

Well, but not for money.

So that's obviously like a personal cost for you.

I guess also that

maybe it is true that for some men, access to porn reduces their sexual aggression towards other women or reduces the chances of them going to

bisexual women in prostitution.

So maybe, I mean, I've never really seen that case made strongly, but I think I said earlier in the conversation that if that were true, that it did actually reduce sexual violence,

I would accept it.

as being the worst of

the options.

Yeah.

Sorry, the better of bad options.

options.

I think sometimes it's hard though, because people think it's either got to be A or B.

It's not always got to be the case.

Sometimes for one person, some of it works and the other person it doesn't.

Or we try and say, okay, porn is better to cancel it, but sometimes it's not like everyone tries to be fit in a box.

And sometimes things are one or the other.

Or sometimes it might depend on what day it is.

And you don't have to pinpoint yourself to one or the other.

What is the best case argument against Bonnie Blue and the world that she wants that you can think of?

I mean, for me, I'm already in it.

I get to do what I want, and no one can stop me, basically.

But one of the main things I want is

people that do pay for porn, do pay for sex workers, or they are queuing, for people to be more open-minded about them.

That they're not disgusting, they're not desperate, they're not here to hurt anybody, they are genuinely lovely people.

So, that would be the biggest thing I would love to happen.

No, what would be the case against against?

Yeah, so so Louise's position of anti-porn would criminalize, would monetize.

If you were to make the argument for that, is there something where you think, okay, this is the best way that I could justify what Louise is saying?

Can you see the other side?

Yeah, like, I mean, I think a lot more restrictions should be added.

Like, it's, this was done by a professional, either speak to the person.

There should be like a clause beforehand.

I think it's hard because I think a lot of porn is very heavily regulated.

And the amount of consent forms and IDs you've got to upload, but as a whole, just

greater education,

I think.

You do see that complete Wild West porn is

bad, even if the individuals are consenting.

Do you think that there's a cultural harm done if we had completely let rip, you know, watch it at any age, watch anything you want?

Do you think that there would be a significant downside from that?

Yeah, I don't think it should be any age.

But at the same time, people are watching porn a lot younger than 18 and it's they're also having sex.

So, you know, you could stop watching porn.

I mean, you could, they make so many restrictions, you can only watch porn once you're 18.

They're probably having sex though younger than that, though.

So who's educating them on them younger years?

And I'm not saying porn's the best place to educate them, but something needs to fill that gap.

I have got an example that brings this into sort of my area of expertise, which is bro science.

And

I'm going to talk about fake natties.

Do you know what that is?

It's not to do with boobs.

It is guys who are in the fitness industry and have achieved a very admirable physique and claim that they haven't done it without performance-enhancing drugs, but they have used performance-enhancing drugs.

Fake naturals, fake natties.

What the argument against fake natties and specifically the sort of ethical argument is these men are

creating an unrealistic expectation of what can be achieved naturally, which inevitably means that any guy who tries to do what they do feels inferior.

They're going to fall short.

The costs of trying to do what this person has done with PEDs is unattainable.

Therefore, saying that you didn't use them is giving them a false sense of hope.

Also, if you then come out and say that you did use drugs, there's often an accusation that this person is now encouraging the use of testosterone because they have an admirable physique in this person, the downstream effect of using hormones on yourself as a guy.

I wonder whether you are kind of...

Not the fake natty because you're completely open about it, but you are the testosterone hyper-responder of the sex world, which is

your results may vary, and Bonnie's the most outlier that you're going to have.

Most guys,

most women, would not be able to sort of run the cycle that you have, as in run the testosterone performance-enhancing drug cycle and survive in the same way that you have.

Most girls would not be able to live the life that you do.

And I think when we're talking about, like,

without exaggeration, a one in 3.5 billion outlier,

Lots of people would ask the question: Does it make women want to emulate her or warn them off of her behavior, not do it?

But the issue is you are so non-representative, there is no warning those people off because there's no negative externalities that happen within this system that is you.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I tried to bring fake natties into this, but no, I get it though.

Like, the good thing is, I'm very transparent.

I'm very open.

And I don't don't think you're transparent about how weird you are.

Yes, I would agree with you.

You did say earlier.

Yeah, because you did say earlier, I'm really normal.

I swear, I'm really normal.

Honestly, anyone, like, so a lot of people that either work with me or my friends, when people that know, they either work with me or they know me, one of the first questions they get asked is, oh my God, what's she like?

And they're like, she is surprisingly normal.

But you're surprisingly normal.

This is exactly the same as me talking about John Jones, or actually not John Jones, that's a bad example.

Tom Aspinall, who's current UFC champion.

And he's a normal guy.

You know, he sits down, he eats dinner, he plays with his kids, he does the thing.

It's like, yeah, but he also beats people up that are over 200 pounds for a living.

Like this guy has a very specific skill set within a very narrow domain.

And yeah, he's normal outside of that, but is also within that a world champion.

So I think I would encourage you to

check your thinking, for want of a better term, on I am not that weird because

nobody else, you've already said yourself, nobody else has been able to do what you can do, the people that are trying to go in your path.

This is the same as you having unbelievable natural strength and being able to squat.

There's a guy who recently broke the deadlift record.

No one else on the planet has ever been able to do that.

And somebody else trying to do that will snap themselves in half trying to chase it.

He is a one in 3.5 billion human.

And I do think

that creates a

an odd sense of the cost that other people would pay if they were to try and do the same thing.

For sure.

Because you do not deal with the situation in the same way.

Like, largely, you're inhuman in the way that you are dealing with what is going on here.

I think, I guess,

it'd be easy if I did struggle a bit and I could open up and say, look, it comes at this cost.

It comes at me crying myself to sleep at night.

It comes at my family are, you know, upset with me and I'm

dealing with physical issues.

But that isn't the case.

For me, it really has been an easy ride.

And, but I do always like to try and make it as clear as possible.

This

is not normal for most people.

I am a normal girl, but in terms of the way I deal with it and the way I'm able to manage it all, yeah, to a certain degree, it isn't normal.

And I don't have any tips as much as I wish I could say, Look, if you do want to do this, here's some tips on how to manage it or how to be successful in it, because

I don't know.

I just

constructed it,

I was just made for it, yeah.

The LeBron James of Porn, yeah, yeah, Louise and Bonnie.

Thank you very much.

It's been really, uh, it's been really interesting to see.

Do I wish?

I don't.

I don't wish that I could have come away from it and said, and you know, I saw the second set of eyelids open and close, or you know,

there was something in there that showed she was being contrived or seemed to be playing some sort of a game.

And that is where the fascination, I think, and the questions will continue because it is easier for people to assume that there is something being hidden than, holy fuck, I just do not have a model for how this person's mind works in in this way.

And if it was probably any other industry that wasn't so heavily moralized, I think people would be fascinated, but for different reasons.

They would be fascinated in the same way that a chess grandmaster or an elite strength athlete or a psychopath killer or, you know, anyone that's like, I have no understanding of how this person's mind works.

But because it is wrapped up in some bravado, a lot of exposure, and a very heavily moralized private thing that's now been commercialized and made public.

Yeah, you are the reductio ad absurdum of the sexual revolution.

And I guess you're the spirit of the age.

See, in my brain, honestly, it's not much going off at the best of times.

It's a very simple brain.

But yeah, and I sort of get what you mean.

You can't walk away and go, you know what?

I completely saw Bonnie's side, or actually, I saw a different side of her.

Like, yeah, you would have seen a different side of me slightly, but it's

as a whole, I'm just a nice person.

I'm always open for a conversation.

And I'm not going to come in and go, you you know what?

I want to fuck all your camera crow and I'm going to turn this into a game.

Please don't.

Please don't.

Please don't.

And what's the big table for?

But I will make jokes and remarks, but I don't just walk around having sex with people.

I don't just,

you know, instantly bend over or assume I'm having sex each day.

It's.

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And then I made a list of 100 of the best books that I've ever found.

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That's chriswillx.com/slash books.

As a whole, it's to a certain degree two people.

Well, thank you for coming on.

I appreciate you both.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you.