#1019 - Fin Taylor & Horatio Gould - History is a Freakshow

Speaker 1 You are historians now. Congratulations.

Speaker 1 Big pivot.

Speaker 1 Yeah, hard pivot. Into academia.
I mean, this is what the manosphere has come to. Yeah.
If you're speaking to historians, you'll get us on to talk. It doesn't matter.

Speaker 1 We can say what we want, and then people are going to be like, what, really? Podcasts that need academic guests. They use all of this.
This is how low the spiral is that I'm scraping.

Speaker 1 This is how your business model works. Once you've had whatever, what's his name? Graham.

Speaker 1 You've had him on four time. Grand hand job.

Speaker 1 You have to get a new guy's on. The legitimacy has declined so much that he's got the new guy.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I agree. It's not clicky enough.
Graham Hancock is just not.

Speaker 1 People are used to it. They need to get these guys on it.
They need someone who's really pushing the boundaries.

Speaker 1 Have you been any more capable of predicting the future now with all of your illustrious studying of the past? Has it given you any insights about what's going on in the modern world?

Speaker 1 It's made me calmer about it. Yeah.
It's just always fucked. That's true.

Speaker 1 History for me has always been quite like a soothing thing.

Speaker 1 It's been a lot worse. And it's going to carry on being like this.
And yeah, it's like ASMR because people keep saying, like, you know, back in the day, back, what do you mean, back in the day? Yeah.

Speaker 1 It was awful. It was awful.
It's been awful for me. This is the best it's ever been.
The 90s was slightly better. But yeah, there's four years.

Speaker 1 Human's gone like this. It's gone like this, and now it's like that.
No, I reckon it went like that, and then it was like in between Diana and 9-11, and then it's just been exactly.

Speaker 1 It's been going down, but people, it is still like

Speaker 1 step back, it's unreal. Coffee's coffee's going to be

Speaker 1 new tonic now.

Speaker 1 You don't have this in the Middle Ages.

Speaker 1 People didn't even have that 10 years ago.

Speaker 1 We're living in the Newtonic Age.

Speaker 1 This is the Newtonic Age today.

Speaker 1 Let's place this for anyone listening. That is true.
That is very true indeed. No, it's an interesting one.
I think

Speaker 1 the fact that both America and maybe the UK as well had such a little golden era, 80s, 90s-ish, where everybody felt like living standards, stuff's getting better. End of history.

Speaker 1 But just that you have this felt pullback from then until now, but you had probably steady incline and careful doing that. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we're on the wrong set.

Speaker 1 You're on the wrong set. That's a steady incline kind of up until then.
So

Speaker 1 when you compare us between that, I think everyone looks at the golden era that parents had and thinks, oh, well, wouldn't it have been lovely to have grown up in the 80s and the 90s?

Speaker 1 Yeah, and it's before social media and stuff. And I guess that there's just a little sweet spot.
But I guess if you just do history a lot, you just look at it much broader.

Speaker 1 And so you just view it, you take a much bigger step back and it's just like, yeah, you know. Yeah, I mean,

Speaker 1 we're more likely to die naturally now than ever before.

Speaker 1 What do you mean? Well, it's in like not die. I mean, I mean, obviously, there are people in your orbit who don't want to die.
And

Speaker 1 that's the new frontier to

Speaker 1 conquer. People won't die.
People won't die. Yeah.
Yeah. Good on them.
They refuse

Speaker 1 to die.

Speaker 1 I'm looking forward to it, frankly. I would like to die at some point.
It's not before my time, but I do think there's a time to die. There's a time and a place.

Speaker 1 It's a time and a place.

Speaker 1 But isn't

Speaker 1 the amount of the way you would die up until about 100 years ago was probably very bad compared to now. We just did a Japan series and they bootstrap suicide.
They loved committing suicide, Sapuku.

Speaker 1 Yeah. You ritually, and it's because it's like life's so rubbish, you just want to do something big and then kill yourself is like a brilliant life.

Speaker 1 The best thing about your life would be the committing of suicide. Yeah, in 16th century Japan.

Speaker 1 What

Speaker 1 caused them to do that? That had to be an incident. Because they didn't have modern wisdom to listen to to help with their mental health.
That's true.

Speaker 1 There was a severe lack of mental health problems. They'll get them up at 4.30 a.m.
So young Japanese men were committing seppuku en masse. And it would be the slightest faux pas.

Speaker 1 You'd fart at the dinner table. Yeah.
I can't live with this. But was it...

Speaker 1 Was it some kind of like weird honor culture? Yeah. But it's still like that.
But yeah, they absolutely fucking loved it. Because I thought it was just like a racist trope.

Speaker 1 But when we went and studied it for these episodes, you can't believe everyone ends with seppuku yeah and if they don't i'm immediately thinking like well you're that's a bit dishonorable yeah their death is treated as suspicious if it's not suicidal yeah exactly it's there's no yeah suspicious circumstances he didn't seem to do it himself

Speaker 1 what um what made japan such an odd country because even now it's about as close to kind of an alien planet as you can get to i suppose well it's an autistic culture right culturally on the autism spectrum it's up there with scotland yeah Scotland, yeah.

Speaker 1 Germany, that's an autistic culture. I think Japan...

Speaker 1 It shuts its doors for 300 years and had no internal wars, which is very rare in history. It was playing World of Warcraft in the basement for a thousand years.

Speaker 1 And what does that cause if you shut the doors for 300 years?

Speaker 1 It's like,

Speaker 1 I don't know, it's like homeschooled kids. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Oh, is this weird? Oh, yeah, we shit with the door open. Right.
Because there's no outside influence. Oh, it's very moderated.
And then they, that's why they're so. Yeah.

Speaker 1 They never were never colonized, but they always took stuff and made it Japanese. Yeah.
Which is why, like, oh, you put a squid and fuck it. No, that's not with that.

Speaker 1 Actually, we did find that the first octopus porn was in like the 1800s. Yeah.
Yeah. What? It's like a wood-carved octopus porn.
Yeah. Because they had obscenity laws about showing.

Speaker 1 So the blurring, blurred porn, that's been going on for a while. To get around obscenity laws, but to still get the rocks off, they'd show, they'd carve.
Someone would carve it. That's fucking

Speaker 1 their job. Carve.
Quite beautifully carved, actually. Beautiful

Speaker 1 Octopus. Fucking a woman.
Octopusy. In 18, whatever, 1840 or something.
Okay. Don't they have those hand job on TV things? I've seen that.
What's this? So Japan, Japanese TV has these weird,

Speaker 1 like, I don't know, competitions where gold. Hand job competitions.
Milking competitions. On TV.
Maybe I'll see. Or maybe it's not.
Well, it's certainly not. Maybe it's on Pornhart.

Speaker 1 I don't know if that's. Honestly, I'm not kidding.
I feel like this has been broadcast outside of X-rated... Takeshi's Prime Minister.

Speaker 1 Whoever comes last becomes Prime Minister.

Speaker 1 Like the most diplomatic game of Soggy Biscuit ever. Five-stakes Soggy Biscuit.
Yeah. Yeah.
Elite level. Okay.
So Japan closes its doors for a long time and becomes weird.

Speaker 1 That's basically how you make a culture odd.

Speaker 1 I wouldn't say it's odd. It's just unique.
It's a very unique culture, very distinct in a way that other cultures.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's very selectively globalized, right? Most cultures don't get to choose how they get globalized, right? It's just this kind of permeable wall and it just blends all together.

Speaker 1 Japan is like, we'll take that, we won't take that. So it's like very structured how their cultures developed.

Speaker 1 Does that play, does that seppuku

Speaker 1 heritage play into kamikaze stuff when it comes to

Speaker 1 that's just the technological advantage?

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's the easiest to find. Kamaka's Japanese and his granddad did.
And everyone's like so jealous when it's like he gets to fucking fly. He's died doing what he loves.
Oh, but there's a

Speaker 1 whole thing about

Speaker 1 their belief system. It's like Shinto and Confucianism and Buddhism.
It's like a whole mix of it where all of it is like, it's so detached from the everyday.

Speaker 1 Life is so, you're such an observer of your own life that killing yourself for a greater cause is like, to our heads, acceptable.

Speaker 1 Whereas with the West, we're like the individual, the freedom, life, that's the most important thing. But the Japanese is honor.
Yeah. And it's wearing no shoes in the house.

Speaker 1 And your life is subservient to not wearing shoes in the house. They're not going to be there.

Speaker 1 But that leads to what we would call the night-night bomb, which is the night night, the big bang. Go to bed.
We won't go to bed. Nagasaki night.

Speaker 1 Night. Yeah, Roshman night.
Night night. Nagasaki.

Speaker 1 That leads to a culture where you just will not surrender because

Speaker 1 you're so Buddhist, you're so detached from your own life. You're so in the moment.
You're so mental health perfect score that you're just will kill yourself because you're above it almost

Speaker 1 sound like modern wisdom doesn't well i don't want to but you know about that japanese soldier who was found on that island in 1974 still fighting still still fighting the war yeah so in one of the islands in the pacific i think he got stranded during uh world war ii and they found him in 1976 i think yeah and he was like he still came out and he was still with a night oh

Speaker 1 he thought the war was going on that's how mental they are but god love them god love them god love them.

Speaker 1 What was the name of the uh operation where America thought we're gonna have to do a land invasion if the atomic bombs don't work?

Speaker 1 And they were getting ready, and they had a million body bags, they were ready for the movement. Well, that's one of the reasons one in the deciding to use it.

Speaker 1 One of the I can't remember the name of the operation, but they were basically, and I don't know how you'd ever actually do this, they were tallying up the potential deaths from the night-night bomb and the potential deaths from a land invasion of American souls,

Speaker 1 and they said they said that actually it was again, I think maybe just they just wanted to use it. Yeah, Yeah, they just said, I think we've got this new thing.
Yeah, cool toy.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's good for Christmas. It looks fucking sick.
Look at this. Anyway, they said.
I mean, it's the ultimate damn toy, isn't it? If you're a president in the show.

Speaker 1 When you've looked online, you've looked at all the reviews and you've got the right fucking hedge trimmer, you really want to use that.

Speaker 1 Anyway, they said in their calculations that the less deaths would be used from the atomic bomb than a ground invasion.

Speaker 1 Presumably less American deaths. Oh, yeah, obviously.

Speaker 1 But also, I guess maybe less Japanese deaths because it's that slow encroachment that makes you think, well, we can push them back, we might be able to win, as opposed to, okay, that was a big mess, and we didn't really seem to be able to do anything about it.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 yeah, I mean, we're not historians, that's the thing to say. So, hang on, so can you just what level of credentials do you have? I've got none, right?

Speaker 1 I have a degree from Bristol in history. And if you weren't a comedian, you'd probably end up being a history teacher, probably.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, everyone in my family is a teacher, and a lot of them are history teachers.

Speaker 1 And my aunt ran the photography at the Imperial War Museum her whole career. So there's a real history.

Speaker 1 And like, you know, the obsession with Nazis is, but I'm realising comes from Christianity.

Speaker 1 Your aunt takes photos of guns, that's sort of your credentials. Yeah, bro.

Speaker 1 She collects photos of guns.

Speaker 1 And she, yeah, but that's my whole family is history teachers, actually, thinking about it. And then you just, you just like it.
You're just autistic, I just like it. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 Spend too much time on chat GPTs. Yeah, something like that.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So we don't have any credentials it's but we are we are comedians yeah and it's a it's a it's a comedy podcast before it's a history podcast i'm worried that we've been called on here as historians it's not at all the west has fallen well but this is the podcast is legitimizing yeah yeah as you said this is how low the barrel is being spent

Speaker 1 part of the the bit as well is how much you get away with having a posh accent and suits yes it's amazing it carries you a long way we're just talking out of our fucking ass and people are like oh yeah

Speaker 1 i just keep saying you know i do learn things

Speaker 1 I really want to hit America because they can't, they're so vulnerable to Brits and suits. They are.
Yeah. Like, they just think you're.
If you put a suit on, it would be absolute murder.

Speaker 1 Vector for weakness. Yeah.
I mean, the amount of havoc you can run with a British accent in America. I mean, you're doing it right now.
That's true. But it was crazy to add the tweet suit.

Speaker 1 Russell Brand, Graham Hancock. Yeah.
I saw Graham Hancock. James Corden.
James Corden. Yeah.
I mean, it's mad, isn't it? Jimmy Carr going on those podcasts. I mean, they can't believe it.

Speaker 1 He's a smart guy in a suit. It's like, they'll believe anything he says, even if it's absolute bollocks.

Speaker 1 I saw Graham Hancock on one of those, I think it was fucking, not Huberman, it was one of those podcasts, saying that he believes every candidate for U.S.

Speaker 1 presidency should have to have taken ayahuasca.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's a rule.

Speaker 1 And him saying it in a suit being British, it's like, that is quite a good idea. You know, it's a terrible idea.

Speaker 1 You have to take psychedelic drugs to be the president. Yeah, because that's what's who you want in charge.

Speaker 1 Someone who's at any moment could have a flashback. Yeah.
And Americans are like, maybe I'm wrong because he does have a posh accent. Yeah, he's very suit.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So that's the dream. We really, I do want to hit America.
I'd love to try and see how far we can push it. Do a university talk.
Yeah, just like, how far can we be intellectuals over there? Yeah.

Speaker 1 I think that you'd be very well respected.

Speaker 1 And they would, you probably could actually reshape what Americans think about their own history. I'm sure.
You'd be able to psyop them into believing something else.

Speaker 1 Well, you're trying to recolonize the curriculum at the minute. I am writing a book called That.

Speaker 1 Recolonize the Curriculum. He's recolonising it.
Recolonizing it.

Speaker 1 What does that mean? I don't know. I'm not sure I'm allowed to talk about it yet.
Okay. But yeah, I am writing a pseudo-historical book.
Okay. Okay.
Well, it seems like you've kind of...

Speaker 1 specialized in obscure bits of history as well. There's like a 24-year period of of or 34-year period of post-war British prime ministers, which I didn't even know was a period of history.

Speaker 1 And you did. Well, it's British history after the war until Thatcher is that the political consensus is very, very, very funny.
Yes.

Speaker 1 And also, why? If the podcast is defined by anything, it probably

Speaker 1 is. It's sort of, if the podcast aesthetic is anything, it's British people.
broke in the 70s nostalgizing the 50s or the war. Yeah.
That's sort of the vi that we're going for. So

Speaker 1 us doing that massive series on post-war primacies, even though it did lose a lot of viewers, but then you have people like, you're still going on. This has been a month.

Speaker 1 And then also, there are now people this week when we started talking about Japan going, what do you mean you're not doing fashion?

Speaker 1 You've been here for 10 episodes and you're not doing that. You did a whole episode on Douglas Alec Yu.
Alec Douglas Hugh.

Speaker 1 Okay, so it was like watching, being forced to watch a really boring prequel in the hopes that you were about to get the main series. And now you've just...
You just don't give it to them.

Speaker 1 But we do a test cricket approach, though. It's like we're doing every inch of the process.
No matter how boring they are, we will cover them. The blue balls.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Millions of people.
But the section we just, the 10-part series, that was more the Attlee consensus and how it broke. Right.

Speaker 1 So after the war, Attlee's post-war socialist consensus, building the NHS, Welfare State, all of that sort of stuff. And basically how that...
slowly broke down to the point that money.

Speaker 1 And they needed, they got so desperate that they elected a woman as prime minister to come in and clean up the mess. That's the sort of, that was the reach of the matter.

Speaker 1 Post-war Britain, cuck dad, bitch mum. And that's defined this country.
Exactly. Atlee and Thatcher is who we all are.
Who we all are. That's the world we're living in, really.

Speaker 1 We're living in Thatcher's world, but there's still remnants of Attlee. What's defined this country is Clement Attlee and Margaret Thatcher, for sure.
I'd never heard that name before. Clement Attlee.

Speaker 1 No. So he was the prime minister who was in the war cabinet for Labour with Churchill, served well in the war.

Speaker 1 And then afterwards, in kind of a shock, he was voted in over Churchill straight away. Because even though Churchill was a war hero, everyone wanted a change.

Speaker 1 The country was on its knees but also trust

Speaker 1 this happened

Speaker 1 in potsdam at the post-war conference churchill's there one day goes home to the election results and then attlee comes to potsdam with uh whoever is it truman or yes it'd be true truman and stalin yeah and eisenhower and all these people and atlee looks like a fucking competition winner so potsdam is the conference when they're divvying up it's not yalt it's the one after yalta where they're all divvying up uh

Speaker 1 germany after the war

Speaker 1 and they're on the on the plane atlee finds out he's prime minister, and no one thought he was going to win. You can see photos, and he's like, fuck it, that was a good thing.
It's like

Speaker 1 fuck a fan with Stalin. Yeah, it's crazy.

Speaker 1 But when he comes to power, in the space of about a year and a half, he builds the entirety of the welfare state.

Speaker 1 And then from that moment onwards, until Thatcher comes in, the state is just creaking because you start to live in a globalized economy. The Middle East kicks off, turns our lights off.

Speaker 1 And so, but no, but

Speaker 1 everyone in politics has fought in the war. No one feels they can disrupt the consensus until

Speaker 1 a woman comes in.

Speaker 1 Why can't they just

Speaker 1 the money they're paying for the unions? And this is where the union power gets too big in the 70s. Also, the Blitz spirit, these guys all fought together, so there was just a much more communal

Speaker 1 attitude for rebuilding Britain. As Thatcher releases this kind of free market and also this sort of psychological individualism where it's like all about making money suddenly, the individual.

Speaker 1 And it's not a problem. So

Speaker 1 that's the tension, the conflict is this sort of very socialist beginning to a very sort of capitalist merit it snaps back it snaps back home you know we've still got the nhs we've still got the welfare welfare state there's still like atlee's we didn't have the nhs before no no that was a well at least venture and also he was a basically a one-term prime ministership you know he was only in for six years but didn't like he did so much in the first two years pretty much did so much that's like the most productive uh prime and revolutionary prime ministership

Speaker 1 But I do think it was only possible because of the complete blank slate at the end of World War II. I mean, your view is that we didn't get bombed enough.

Speaker 1 Because it's one or the other. We got bombed annoyingly.

Speaker 1 If you look at

Speaker 1 all of our rails were bombed, then we could rebuild them. Yes.
Because that's like they're actually paying to do the breaking down.

Speaker 1 Well, wait,

Speaker 1 if you want to get into it,

Speaker 1 Germany and Japan arguably win the peace because they were so devastated, defeated, and then they were basically funded by the Americans to rebuild.

Speaker 1 So their economy started growing very quickly after the war. They have a massive 50s boom.
Britain is bankrupt

Speaker 1 and yet not completely destroyed. And yet we spend all of our money.
And we're pretending we're not bankrupt. No, but also we spend all the money the Americans give us.

Speaker 1 The condition of them giving the money is that we have to have a nuclear bomb. And so we start...
arming ourselves because we're in the Cold War era.

Speaker 1 And so that's why we have no money from the off.

Speaker 1 That's why so many houses from that period are still there still there they built these temporary prefab houses and that were meant to be like last three years yeah that's that's well welsh housing stock still

Speaker 1 it's crazy yeah anyway there's a whole yeah there's a whole 10-hour symphony uh of that were there other any other

Speaker 1 unlikely heroes that you sort of fell in love with post-war how i mean howard wilson's second term wilson's a beast the episode is called stop pegging granddad yeah that he was being sexually dominated by his private secretary

Speaker 1 this isn't one of your euphemisms no you can you can you can look at the rest is history they talk about it so it's real yeah okay hang on so the litmus test for finn versus history yeah is the rest is history i mean i ran into tom holland at a historical exhibition i said by the way i'm about to start a podcast which is misremembering your podcast and you know so that's basically what the premise of this podcast is in many ways is us trying to remember some of their episodes and getting it wrong that's sort of the shtick yeah it is but but there's a brilliant, probably my favorite is because Sambrooke is a very, this is one of his specialist topics, is political history in the 70s.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 There's an episode, there's a series on 1974, The Crisis Year, that is fucking hilarious. It's the best one, probably.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And that's where, that's why we wanted to do this because, like, Heath as well. Heath is such a funny prime.
Basically, Marcia, he, Wilson, on his second term, his first term was pretty revolutionary.

Speaker 1 It was like repealing gay rights. It was the 60s.
Repealing gay rights.

Speaker 1 Introducing gay rights. Yeah.
So

Speaker 1 repealing gay rights was what's about to happen.

Speaker 1 And by his second time, he was completely exhausted. They're all exhausted.
He had early onset outside. And then his assistant, he had this sort of psychosexual thing.

Speaker 1 It wasn't his wife, his assistant, Marcia.

Speaker 1 For example, he was at, I think in Downing Street, this happened, that Marcia said, come here, you little cunt, to the Prime Minister in front of all of his aides. And then he went.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And he just just went with her Yeah, so she was just like this She uh when he won when he won his record fourth election

Speaker 1 He she told him the wrong address for The celebration parties there was no one there she cancelled it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and she just liked to dominate him Yeah, and she was there and he turned up and then she started bollocking him They had an affair in the 50s and she told his wife, she said I went to your I went to bed with your husband six times in 1956 and it was less than satisfactory.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And and but she's his private secretary.

Speaker 1 So through the whole of his political career, he has these two wives and one of them is pegging him in Downing Street whilst the country is completely crumbling. Yeah.
I mean, Wilson's great.

Speaker 1 Ted Heath, because it flipped between Wilson and Heath

Speaker 1 over the 70s.

Speaker 1 He's the rudest man there's ever

Speaker 1 and he maybe is a paedophile.

Speaker 1 Who knows? Who knows? You couldn't possibly know. But he absolutely hated women so much that they were invisible.
He transcended misogyny.

Speaker 1 So he had one person whose life was run by a woman that was pegging him and another one who didn't see

Speaker 1 the Great Downing Street because the country kept going to state of emergencies, there had to be so many elections. It was like Brexit, but it was worse than Brexit.

Speaker 1 But then the great irony is the man who literally didn't see women, he got so annoyed by them,

Speaker 1 then gets usurped by Thatcher. And he hates that.

Speaker 1 He hates Thatcher. And he goes into what's called the longest sulk in history, where he's still in the commons.
He becomes the

Speaker 1 father of the house. He's there till like the 90s or whatever when he dies.
And whenever Thatcher speaks, you can see him turning his nose up. Yeah.
Like that. Oh, I love Heath.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So Heath and Wilson are two other favorites probably. Yeah.

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Speaker 1 That's so good. I didn't realize that there was so much bullshit going on that we needed to have these snap elections just back to back to back like that.

Speaker 1 Well, one thing that I found quite therapeutic, which I've always found therapeutic about history, is realizing how fucked things were to put some perspective.

Speaker 1 Because certainly if you're on Twitter, it feels like everything's growing to a halt, everything's awful. But you just look 20 years, 30 years backwards, and you're like, it could be a lot worse.

Speaker 1 1974, comparing it to British political history now, you remember it's a lot of the same things we're going through now, but worse. Energy crisis, economy.
Three-day week.

Speaker 1 Yeah, all of that sort of stuff. It's a three-day week.

Speaker 1 They didn't have the energy because the miners were demanding so much money and

Speaker 1 the Prime Minister was in a standoff with them. And then the OPEC crisis kicks off with the Middle East wars.
So suddenly energy is insanely expensive and the miners realize that they actually...

Speaker 1 they've got all the leverage to demand what they need but the country can't afford to pay them what they want so ted heath doesn't give give them what they want he says um

Speaker 1 everyone can only use electricity for three days a week it's a rationed electricity tv ends at 10 p.m um that's when football starts getting played on sundays because they can't afford to use floodlights yeah so football which was always had to be

Speaker 1 yeah has to be in the daytime i mean it got so bleak and apparently that's when um uh uh kinky stuff starts yeah because one of the government advice man advice was this only you can only work for three days so to pass the time why don't you experiment with your sex lives

Speaker 1 So, butt stuffed starts because the lights are.

Speaker 1 You've got to pass the time somehow. You can only do it with the lights off.
Yeah. That pegging guy could have been perfectly fine.
That's probably when we start getting pegged. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 Two-day week. But it got so bleak, Edi Amin

Speaker 1 was trying to send an airplane full of vegetables to feed the starving Brits. He said, We're so heartbroken to see the way that our former colonial masters are suffering.
Right.

Speaker 1 That all of the people we've gathered round and everyone's done a whip around to help Britain. Reverse reparations.
And And Britain is a bit of a reference. It's comic relief in reverse.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's the EDMA, Ugandan dictator, sending charitable donations to Britain. It's exquisite.
It's absolutely.

Speaker 1 The point is, though, when people say this country's in the toilet, there's a feeling that it's like we're in terminal decline. It's like it's been for years.
Do you realize how much worse it's been?

Speaker 1 And within our parents' lifetime, and we've gotten out of it. So I do think it's good to have a bit of framing sometimes.
Speaking of the vegetables thing, I had John Lyle on.

Speaker 1 He wrote The Dirty Tricks Department, which was about the founding of the OSS. Mind Control.
Yeah, we did a series on

Speaker 1 CIA. Oh, MK Ultra.
His second book was on MK Ultra. His first book was The Founding of the OSS.
Stanley Lovell Williams. Fellow historian.
Fucking

Speaker 1 anyway, there was a story that he looked at because he's in the archives in Texas and he's reading these original documents. The vegetables thing.

Speaker 1 reminded me of a story where a psychological assessment had been done of Hitler and they'd found out that he had a very fragile hold hold on his masculinity. Oh, yeah.
And

Speaker 1 I won't take it. That was the most secure man I've ever seen.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 their attempt was they found

Speaker 1 the gardener who grew the vegetables that went to the

Speaker 1 bird's nest? What was

Speaker 1 the eagle's nest?

Speaker 1 Bircher's garden.

Speaker 1 I know that one. Yep.

Speaker 1 Bang.

Speaker 1 So in finished the question.

Speaker 1 Found the gardener who grew the vegetables that went to the eagle's nest. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And they.

Speaker 1 Hands, I believe it's called.

Speaker 1 I don't know that.

Speaker 1 I met him once.

Speaker 1 Shook his hands.

Speaker 1 Tried to inject the vegetables that were going to the eagle's nest with female sex hormones. Yeah.
In an attempt to try and trans Hitler. They said his mustache would fall out.

Speaker 1 His voice would go higher. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know this.
You do know your history. That's incredible.
What an obscure bit bit of history.

Speaker 1 Incredibly well. Yeah.
What an obscure story to know. I thought I was going to be able to teach you something new.
No, I knew that. Don't try that.
You can't get anything about Hitler past Finn.

Speaker 1 Nothing goes past. Okay, you're the world expert on Hitler.
Let's say that, yeah.

Speaker 1 That's what I'd like you to say. World expert.

Speaker 1 Well, Hitler's biggest fan, I think, is a better word. Yeah.
Biggest empath. Cosplayer.
No,

Speaker 1 I'm an empath. Yeah, he's a selective empath.

Speaker 1 He's only an empath for one man. Reverse empath.
He has no empathy for anyone else. No.

Speaker 1 But yet that idea of injecting vegetables with female sex holes. Well, I mean, trans Hitler, I mean, that opens up a world of possibilities.
Imagine. Powerful.
The things we never got to see. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Interesting for the worst crimes of the 20th century, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, all terrible relationships to their fathers. Imagine if they'd had modern wisdom.

Speaker 1 In that period, who had a good relationship with their fathers?

Speaker 1 Like, I feel it was before, it was pre-good relationships with fathers, right? This was handshakes, fathers. Yeah, I mean, I mean, as a father myself, I'd like to, I'd like to see who.

Speaker 1 Did Churchill have a good relationship with his father? No, Herodotus. So it's just like awful.

Speaker 1 I don't think you could say that was the cause of them because it was like

Speaker 1 we're the first generation to be dads that are trying. Yeah.
That are actually invested. That's a really good point.

Speaker 1 Because if you look at them, you look at their life and you're like, oh, it's clearly this. But then you look at anyone on their street.
You look at anyone in the village.

Speaker 1 Why did he not become men? Why did he not become starling?

Speaker 1 Churchill, how do you think he would get on in the modern world of TikTok?

Speaker 1 He'd be a body

Speaker 1 booming influencer. No, he's like that guy.
He's like, Dignity,

Speaker 1 that guy.

Speaker 1 What's his name? Oh, we've got a

Speaker 1 shout out. Sandro, he does the problematic pub podcast.
You've got to watch this video. This is great for your listeners.

Speaker 1 He's like the opposite of you. Okay.
In that,

Speaker 1 you know, you're a bit biohacky, right? Okay.

Speaker 1 Yeah, biohack light. Yeah, right.
This guy is the, what's the opposite of a biohack? I don't know. He's a biofuck.
This guy. Biofuck.
This guy.

Speaker 1 Was he drinking it? He's like, drinking a day. And then he'll go on holiday to Magaloof with his friends, and then he will proceed to video every drink he drinks.
And it will be

Speaker 1 25 beers. Highlights for me.
He'll go through the cocktail menu at his hotel, 14 cocktails. Story Dakeri, lovely.
Lovely.

Speaker 1 So that would be, if we can get any of that up, if you can do some research,

Speaker 1 please.

Speaker 1 I'd love to shout him out. And he doesn't have long left.
Can't have long. Is it a YouTube channel or Instagram or what? It's on TikTok.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Okay, brilliant.

Speaker 1 But anyway, Churchill, day drinking, booming speeches. How do you reckon he'd get on? Modern world?

Speaker 1 Can you get away with that? I guess it's kind of like the culture's shifted, certainly. But then there has been a dearth of political charisma, and I think that's not politicians' fault.

Speaker 1 I think it's as trust has gone. Not trust is gone.
Trust me. Trust has gone.

Speaker 1 Love it.

Speaker 1 Charisma's gone because trust is gone. Charisma left when trusted.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 1 We've got to stop electing people because they're fit. Yeah.
But the

Speaker 1 charismatic politicians, we haven't really.

Speaker 1 I guess Farage is probably the last successful.

Speaker 1 To be statesmanlike is not to be... sort of gregarious in that way.
Yeah, statesmanship is old-fashioned if we're living in the era of Trump and Farage and Vance and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 But is there a link between the success of the country and the success of the politicians?

Speaker 1 Because if you look at the politicians during the Victorian age, when Britain was the predominant power in the world, they did seem more charismatic, but just by the nature of what they were dealing with, right?

Speaker 1 Do you feel like Trump didn't have to deal with the public in the way that they were? I guess so. Yeah.
I guess Trump is kind of like a sober Churchill, at least.

Speaker 1 He's very gregarious, the booming speeches, he just doesn't do the drinking bit. Yeah.
And maybe it's just Churchill's accent and like dress sense that lends a sense of charm to the outrageousness.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Is he outrageous? Well,

Speaker 1 today's standards, I guess. But then at the time, maybe it wasn't.

Speaker 1 Yeah, what's more impressive, I think, is the it is extraordinary that level of I don't know anyone who has that level of productivity drinking that much.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I just quite, I don't know how cultural that is. I think people drink less now.
People are much more health conscious now. But seeing as you're so normalized to drink and smoke that much.

Speaker 1 If I started started drinking smoking, I wouldn't get anything. The more interesting question is, how would Brian Johnson get on in the war cabinet? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 1 What the fuck's this nonce? Yeah. Have a beer with you, mate.
Yeah. I mean you want to live forever.
It's the force. Going to bed at 10 p.m.
Yeah, go on.

Speaker 1 Fucking wake up. He also did deal with depression his whole life though, right? Really aggressive depression.
Yeah, let's get serious. Let's get serious, Chris.
Churchill? Churchill.

Speaker 1 Churchill was depressed. I thought he was.
Was he not? Does it not the black dog thing that was following him around? Is that not his whole thing? I mean, you you look at what he was drinking.

Speaker 1 Is it possible to be not depressed being that hungover all the time? Yeah, because Churchill would depress it. One, he wouldn't even know what depression is.

Speaker 1 I think depression existed until like this. You're just a British bloke, which is like sometimes used in a grump, and he didn't know what that was.
Right. So I don't know.

Speaker 1 You're drinking weird whiskey on the nightstand. You're drinking whiskey when you wake up.

Speaker 1 He had a, he, he made, is it Paul Roger

Speaker 1 champagne? And he had a custom-sized bottle made because he said a half bottle was not sufficient and a full bottle was too much to have it on.

Speaker 1 sooner sooner so he he's sort of a two-thirds what I drink it today

Speaker 1 that could have been it

Speaker 1 yeah

Speaker 1 it's weird like World War II stuff is kind of ASMR for white guys in their 30s yes

Speaker 1 or documentary results yeah yeah it and that is I imagine that there's just an infinite amount of stuff that you can keep going back over with regards to that.

Speaker 1 Well, we're trying to stretch it out on our pod because it is, it is the, it's real just nitroglycerin for the listeners they love it yeah um because it is it's probably this is the most exciting thing that's that's well it's like all of history right was leading to the night night bomb and everything's been going out it's like an hourglass that's it it's like history is like a pyramid leading towards the big atomic explosion so that's like the and then everything's been a fallout since then right that's how so i think world war two is just if you like history it's the it's the big it's the season finale it's the perfect amount of it's long enough ago that it's interesting to research but close enough enough to us that there was sufficient information captured about it to be able to,

Speaker 1 yeah, but also the kind of the biblical nature of the light and dark, good and evil.

Speaker 1 Yeah, the sides of the world doesn't really happen, and the fucking aesthetics, and so much of culture, like Star Wars, uh, is built off that similar, like evil, dark sides with the great outfits, they look great, and this kind of iconic baddie, and then the rebel.

Speaker 1 I know it's based on Vietnam Star Wars, Wars, but you know, the

Speaker 1 rebels and stuff. Yeah.

Speaker 1 That doesn't really happen in conflicts since, I guess. Are you saying sartorially World War II was the sort of pinnacle? Yeah,

Speaker 1 and also when you're looking at Hitler in the 30s, people didn't have a Hitler to compare him to. So the idea of evil is Hitler.

Speaker 1 Hitler invented that, really.

Speaker 1 And also, it didn't really come in until the videos from the camps came out.

Speaker 1 The kind of idea of this, like, everyone comparing everything to Hitler, there being this idea of true evil and stuff like that, that just didn't really exist in the same way.

Speaker 1 Obviously, there was like religious things whereas like heretics and that sort of, but our modern sense of evil is all comes from that.

Speaker 1 And the bad guy, you know, like James Bond, all the outfits, did it Blofeld's a dictator? Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, like that whole culturally we're so born out of World War II. Yeah.

Speaker 1 like action film but then have you seen heroes i don't know what your um algorithms like the amount of pro-Hitler stuff is getting crazy. Pro-Hitler stuff.

Speaker 1 Are you not getting it? I haven't seen any of that. What's on your algorithm, Chris? Like, just dog videos.
And it's very fluffy, mine. I don't tend to get much of that.
Like, boobs.

Speaker 1 Boobs? Boobs? No, not really. What is Gamma? Boobs.
I'm tits in Hitler. It's crazy.
It's just mine's just the same thing. It's not even Hitler.
It's just it. So what do you mean, pro-Hitler?

Speaker 1 Oh, it's crazy.

Speaker 1 The whole community is. Also, the Pakistani guy with the mustache.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 I love that guy. Shaka.
I don't know what his name is.

Speaker 1 it's like what's shocking is like uh there's like Hitler's speech has been translated into English and it's not only like memes that are like I guess kind of quite like nihilistic set like being pro-Hitler because it's edgy whatever it's the comments that there's a whole so is it ironic or not no it's but it's broken past irony It's genuinely pretty terrifying.

Speaker 1 So it'd be like, we owe Germany an apology. That would be a lot of the comments.
Is it just anti-Semitism repackaged as pro-Hitlerism? It's.

Speaker 1 I've got a friend who sends me all of these because it's just

Speaker 1 considered it might just be him. And on Twitter.
It's not me. I should have just stressed.
It's my other friend who sat next to me in the room.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you've sent me some. But on Twitter, now that Elon's taken the handbrake off, it's just gone crazy, the Nazi stuff.

Speaker 1 I got sent like a three-hour documentary with quite a proper voiceover. well-produced.

Speaker 1 It's like a pro-Hitler one. It opens with a misunderstood artist, a man who changed changed the world.

Speaker 1 So like there is definitely, I think when you're told someone's evil and that's like the most defined

Speaker 1 kind of like

Speaker 1 truth. Yes.

Speaker 1 The idea that you've been lied to is thrilling for a lot of people. Very seductive.
Very seductive for sure.

Speaker 1 But it is, it is definitely crazy what's going online in the in the Hitler space at the moment. The Hitler sphere.
Are we in the Hitler sphere? We're in the Hitler sphere. You are

Speaker 1 orbiting the Hitler sphere. With the sun, I think.

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Speaker 1 I would not have guessed

Speaker 1 that.

Speaker 1 There's videos of like Hitler playing with his dog, trying to to show his light aside. They are, I mean, they're great videos.

Speaker 1 I really like that.

Speaker 1 Happy, there's Happy Hitler. You're talking about the photo shoot he did in the

Speaker 1 20s? Yeah. Photo shoot.
Or maybe it's the early 30s. Well, when he's trying to work out his act.
But no, it is like a comedian.

Speaker 1 Does he do early bits? Is there any of his early material? Well, the work-in-progress shows of Hitler. There's very rare, these very rare photos basically where Hitler's trying to work out his

Speaker 1 video. His shtick.
Yeah. You know, because it doesn't just come straight out.
And does that? That's chaplain he's the biggest chaplain fan in the world right and uh

Speaker 1 it's hard to get it hitler but uh he got every chaplain film sent to him uh and then in 1941 a great film the great dictator an amazing chaplain film uh which is a parody of hitler during the war made in the middle of world war ii he gets everything sent to him and it this got sent to him and it made fun of him and he was heartbroken

Speaker 1 it was like your hero your biggest hero the guy who's fucking facial hair wouldn't have been been a real middle finger if he just shaved it off? Chaplin.

Speaker 1 No, if, yeah, oh, actually, that would have been a little bit more.

Speaker 1 Yeah, Hitler doing a middle finger. I feel he's done a lot worse.
I don't think.

Speaker 1 I feel the Holocaust was a middle finger. Yeah, but that, that's worse than that.
Was that aimed at Chaplin, the Holocaust? No, I guess not. I guess not.
Fuck you, Charlie.

Speaker 1 Chaplain.

Speaker 1 Yeah. No.

Speaker 1 I don't think we can say that hot take. No.
Chaplain calls the Holocaust.

Speaker 1 It's the thumbnail title of this. Exactly what you want now.
Yeah, that might work.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1 Trying to repurpose or trying to reinvent Hitler's position and what he stood for seems like. Well, it's fringe now, but all these things that were fringe five years ago is coming into the mainstream.

Speaker 1 So I wouldn't be able to do it. It's more that niches are getting bigger.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Niches are big now because of the fragmentation.

Speaker 1 Because the echo chambers actually start to grow.

Speaker 1 It's more that if the market digitally is everyone, then a niche of that market, a percentage is a massive amount of people. It's enough to hold a community together.
Exactly. Totally.
Wow. Yeah,

Speaker 1 I loved that John Lyle book because all of the little obscure bits and pieces of stories that were in history, there was this thing I learned, you were talking about the Japanese before.

Speaker 1 At some point, the CIO, the OSS, tried to scare the Japanese by putting luminous paint. Foxes are a bad omen in Japan, apparently.

Speaker 1 So they tried to scare them them with glow-in-the-dark, what they thought would be foxes, but they couldn't get enough foxes.

Speaker 1 So I think they used something, and not skunks, they used some other type of creature. And then they put them in water and found that they washed up both dead and the water.
The stuff had been

Speaker 1 luminous paint. Yeah, it had been washed off them.
So then they put a huge fox head out with a PA system and broadcast like sounds.

Speaker 1 It was crazy what they tried to do to in a desperate attempt to just psyop. Like the early versions of psyops, psyops

Speaker 1 really

Speaker 1 like it was wet clay that people were playing with. Well, it was like a they tried everything, and they're like, We're gonna have to put a nuclear bomb on them, aren't we?

Speaker 1 We've done the big screaming fox head, yeah, that didn't work. Tried to trans Hitler, well, that, but that's like the initial

Speaker 1 in the Aztecs. Remember, in the Aztec series, when the

Speaker 1 holding out against Cortez and Galgistadors, their version of the nuclear bomb is a guy dressed as a massive.

Speaker 1 This is the last, this is like the when the Aztecs are doing their like final stand, the ultimate deterrent. You don't want to press the button, but you do, and it's a guy dressed as a massive owl

Speaker 1 who comes out and goes, ooh, and they all just shout out. And they're like, we don't want to have to use this, but you've forced our hands.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then

Speaker 1 he comes out, ooh, and the Spanish just kill him. And they're like, oh, okay, right.

Speaker 1 It's the same equivalent of dropping the nuclear bomb, but it bounces off comes into the sea. And it's like, oh, fuck.
Or the nuclear bomb. You drop out a plane, a guy dressed as an owl.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 You just drop on the Roshma.

Speaker 1 I know nothing about the Aztecs.

Speaker 1 The only thing I'll say about that is the misconception

Speaker 1 is that it should be viewed more as a civil war than like a colonizing thing. Because it was like there was everyone talks about how there's like 600 conquistadors who took over all the Aztecs.

Speaker 1 It was actually two Aztecs who the Mashika was a rival clan with who were fucking over loads of other. Can you remember the name of the rival clan? I remember

Speaker 1 Clatch

Speaker 1 Clarlands. Yeah, Clatch Carlins.
And then they basically allied with the Spanish

Speaker 1 to

Speaker 1 take over the Aztecs. Internal civil war assisted by someone from Aztec.
What's missing is that it wasn't 600 conquistadors versus all the Aztecs.

Speaker 1 It was 600 conquistadors with thousands of other Chach Clarlands.

Speaker 1 Versus a guy in a massive AL suit. I mean, yeah, yeah, with an AL suit.
They had guns and one guy had an LC.

Speaker 1 Were the Aztecs as brutal as...

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. To be fair, it's pretty nuts.
Similar to the kind of you think, you know, the seppuku thing with Japan, that's a stereotype. Oh, no, it's not.

Speaker 1 Similar to the, oh, the human sacrifice. Oh, they fucking loved it.
What was the festival? What was the last thing? What was the timing of this?

Speaker 1 What, what, this was, to be fair, because you always, when you think of Aztecs, it feels ancient. Yes.
It's medieval. Right.
Well, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a meeting.

Speaker 1 It's a meeting of worlds, the Aztecs. And it's basically an Iron Age civilization with a kind of early modern European one.
That's the. Yeah.
So they

Speaker 1 had, is it 1516? I want to say Cortez. But they didn't have iron, they didn't have steel.
They did sort of have wheels, but they didn't have wheels. They didn't have wheels that they actually had.

Speaker 1 They thought of a wheel, but they hadn't made a wheel.

Speaker 1 That was wheels on kids' toys, but they'd never thought to use that to protect wheels.

Speaker 1 But it's funny because they would chop people's heads off the top of these pyramids in the human sacrifice, rip their heart out, chop their head off, and then the head would roll down the steps.

Speaker 1 And they didn't quite link that rolling with

Speaker 1 the physics was there. They did invent slinkies.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's not true. That's where our podcasts.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we can't give them the credit of inventing slinkies. We don't know.

Speaker 1 Do you know who invented the slinky? I don't know. No, we can't know.
I imagine it was an American in the 70s, was my feeling.

Speaker 1 But what was the Festival of Blood? That was like the craziest thing. It was basically a bank holiday festival where they killed 80,000 people.
So you're like a day off work, day off school.

Speaker 1 But like criminals?

Speaker 1 No, it'd be right. It'd be the Tlash Clarlins.
Prisoners from the Tashkar. So

Speaker 1 if you got captured. They were not like killing you in battle.
They're like capturing you and then chopping you. And they would then sacrifice you to their gods.

Speaker 1 okay because also their form of battle was more like a step-up dance battle yeah like it was a bit more ritualistic so that's why the spanish when they're just like shooting them it's like oh i thought this was more like a that's why the owl guy is the the end yeah it's a dance off and you go right

Speaker 1 body popping i can't compete with the guy boyvor and just an owl this dance off is over there's one guy doing the worm yeah yeah

Speaker 1 yeah but yeah they'd killed like 80 000 people at once and they're like just the the stench of blood was just extraordinary there was But

Speaker 1 they're doing it. They don't have steel.
So they're doing

Speaker 1 obsidian glass. It's like shards.
It's like a glass that you're volcanic sort of rock that you sort of like glass and it's very sharp. Oh, and you chip.
Yeah. Yeah.
You

Speaker 1 slave it. It's like a flint type thing, but super sharp.
Super sharp. So they're cutting into the breastbone and pulling.
After the head? No.

Speaker 1 So you see that, and then they fucking hew. And then they have a big axe, an obsidian axe, I think.

Speaker 1 So if your heart gets taken out, do you get like a couple of free pumps

Speaker 1 where you get to see it for a second no i think the blood's still going round um but it's like heads cut off there's still there's still a bit of consciousness for a few seconds isn't there

Speaker 1 or is that chickens no you can't if your head is you can't you no no no no because you're telling me if you chop my head off my my pov like i'll see the carpet as i'm falling towards it yeah because there's a lag right

Speaker 1 wow Again, can you get one of your science guys? Do you have anyone good? Brian Johnson. Brian Johnson.
Get your fucking head, guys, on this?

Speaker 1 The real test of the Brian Johnson is if someone cuts his head off.

Speaker 1 How long does he stay alive? He's going to stay alive. Because if it's longer, then if they cut my head off, then fair play.
Fair play.

Speaker 1 Have you had Brian Johnson on this? I have.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it was once a while ago. He's a sweetie.
He's a really sweet guy. I tell you what,

Speaker 1 I did say it'd be funny if you got hit by a bus just because

Speaker 1 comedically.

Speaker 1 Comedically. Yeah, if he died at 62 because he got run over.
It is funny. But it is nice to have someone nosing about in that sphere.

Speaker 1 someone's got to be doing you know it's nice to have just a person doing it could be the way to think

Speaker 1 it the way to think about brian johnson is that he is like a scout in an army and you don't want an army that's filled with scouts and i also probably myself don't want to be the guy that tries to climb up to the top of that mountain to see if there's something interesting over the far side yeah and i'm like but i'll happily have him go up and come back and tell us let me tell you what i found up there if he comes back he's nosy as hell but he did digging around it's like you shouldn't be digging around in there lad what you look he did yeah it's like trying to change the source code os of your windows computer, Windows XP.

Speaker 1 You're going to break something in there. But he did tweet not long ago.
He said, I guarantee I will die in the most hilarious and ironic way possible.

Speaker 1 Well, it's just cosmically, you know,

Speaker 1 it would be too funny to just slip in a banana and hit her.

Speaker 1 Because the oldest person in the world right now is British, Ethel. Ethel Casrum.

Speaker 1 Ethel Casrum, we're starting a campaign. She has to overtake the record, which is held by a French woman.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 It was another campaign with a podcast. I think she's been cooking the books, though.

Speaker 1 Yeah, there's a campaign we're starting a a podcast to get Ethel Caterin past.

Speaker 1 Ethel Cater's, I think, on 113? She's 127, I believe. No.
No, no.

Speaker 1 The French one is 119. That's the oldest.

Speaker 1 So Ethel is 113. The French one's still alive.
Yeah. No.

Speaker 1 No, she died. Right.
So that's

Speaker 1 the finish line. No, so like we got, we got to keep Ethel alive.
Because if they were both racing at the same time, that would be because you could just

Speaker 1 take out the old one. And that's an easy one.
You can fucking one slap to the face

Speaker 1 on. Yeah.

Speaker 1 No, no, so we, we, we, uh, any, if you see Ethel like a like marathon runners on the 20th mile, you know, cheer on

Speaker 1 you got this, come on, give us some fish and some companionship. Fish and mates.
Yeah, yeah. Give us some blue zone.
All the blue zone stuff.

Speaker 1 What is funny, though, is you've got the Brian Johnson thing. It's going to be interesting to see if he outlives

Speaker 1 an olive oil farmer in Sardinia. Yeah.
He'll be just some guy, you know, smoking. Diavan,

Speaker 1 who's just like, this old Italian guy is going to outlive Brian Johnson? He's going to

Speaker 1 he's drinking olive oil and just smoking and having fish. He's got mates.
Supposedly it's mates. That's what everyone's saying.
On the blue. It's so fascinating.
Brian's a good example of this.

Speaker 1 There's certain people who sort of capture a

Speaker 1 cultural niche. Because when you're thinking about longevity, biohacking, kind of the modern world of that, you think Brian Johnson.
Empathy with Hitler. Yeah.
You think Finn Taylor?

Speaker 1 But it kind of speaks to the fact that there was some subculture beneath the surface that needed a figurehead, not maybe too dissimilar to Hitler.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 whenever that person sort of comes up,

Speaker 1 for better or worse, like a Tate or a Dan Bilzerian or something, there was obviously some

Speaker 1 story going on, some subculture thing happening. And then there's this person that's the tip of the spear

Speaker 1 that is like the epitome of this. They're like the distillation of all of this stuff.
And I think Brian Johnson's kind of... He's emblematic.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Bonnie Blue.
Bonnie Blue.

Speaker 1 Yeah, the romantic result of sort of the modern sexual liberation stuff. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but then I tried to watch a bit of the Andrew Tate Bonnie Blue podcast for research because we had it on our other show. And I just thought this is like a fucking GTA cutscene.

Speaker 1 Like, neither of these people are real. Like, it's just not real.

Speaker 1 And I don't know if it's people, their followers are like, they're playing along with the not real of it and or they're actually taking it real but because if you it's just they're not neither of them because you've grown up online the lines between irony and sincerity has just become completely blurred so it's sort of like no one's very few people are earnest now yeah

Speaker 1 the sincerity is basically like yeah it's going non-existent um do you know the idea of k-fabe do you know this from professional wrestling no okay so it's just basically that the i have a mortgage chris so any any professional wrestling stuff i don't know that's true i will default if i engage with it um

Speaker 1 basically the idea that sort of the hyper real like the fake real, the sort of Trump, Trumpian

Speaker 1 like

Speaker 1 meta story, people just sort of buy into that and they kind of don't care. Hyper normalisation, that Adam Curtis film.
You seen that? No.

Speaker 1 You'd like Adam Curtis. You'd love Adam Curtis.
You should have him on.

Speaker 1 I don't think I'm super excited.

Speaker 1 He makes these films. These documentaries.
He's a documentary maker. Where he says that's a little bit strange.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So he makes these, he's this guy that's allowed, yeah, British guy, he's allowed into the BBC archives and he just lives there like a hobbit for years, going through all all of that.

Speaker 1 Someone brings some food down to Adam Curtis, actually. We need to check on it.
Yeah. Because he's been down there for about 15 years.
And he builds these incredible films.

Speaker 1 They're all on the iPlayer and it's all used with documentary stock footage. And then he sort of tells this story of...

Speaker 1 Thatcher thought she was unleashing Russian's potential. She was actually unleashing something much darker.
Bonnie Blow. Yeah.
That would be it, though.

Speaker 1 So he's like the British Ken Burns in that way. Sort of.
Yeah, but it's much more like... More kind of enchantment.
Enchant guards. And like the music's more hypnotic.
It's much more kind of like

Speaker 1 in some ways emotional. A little bit psychedelic in that.
Yeah, definitely. Because Ken Burns Vietnam is totemic and amazing.
Ken Burns' Civil War, I cannot, I can't. I couldn't get through it either.

Speaker 1 It's just the camera on the paintings. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I can't do it.

Speaker 1 And Marin Arms long that shit. But I think that Vietnam series might be.
That's as good as it gets. I think that might be the best.
It's phenomenal. And it goes on and on.

Speaker 1 And this one's an hour and a half, and this one's two hours. And this one's.

Speaker 1 The key thing I've realized, if you're a documentary maker like Adam Curtis and Ken Burns, you've got to make the people who are watching it feel clever.

Speaker 1 And that's what Ken Burns and Adam Curtis do really well. I watch it and I go like, well, I'm brilliant.
Why?

Speaker 1 And then you asked me, particularly with Adam Curtis, it's because he will always tell a story about history and politics that you haven't thought of. And I feel like you're really smart.

Speaker 1 And if someone asks you about it, you're like... It opens the door to like, here's what's really going.
Here's what's really going on. There's a bit of that amongst his fan base, definitely.

Speaker 1 But they make you think about things in a way that no other doctor,

Speaker 1 but it makes you feel like you've come up with it.

Speaker 1 It makes me feel like you've like drunk the world and you can see everything and you're like, and then if anyone asks you what it's about, uh fucking music playing and that. There was a lake.

Speaker 1 There's a lake where they did a deal, and then that's why bin Laden exists.

Speaker 1 Bin Laden was a lake. I'm fit.
Yeah. Yeah.
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Speaker 1 I still don't know why Vietnam started. And I've watched that Kanban started.
Yeah, that's why I've seen three times. You watch and you're like, well, I'm brilliant.

Speaker 1 Well, in many ways, it starts. Well, let's not get into it.
We'll just get an arm at some point. It's a quagmire.
Yeah, it is. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But it was interesting saying how no one's fault is the French's fault.

Speaker 1 It's interesting you were saying that earnestness has gone. I'd consider you quite an earnest person.
I think I am. Yeah.
I have a problem with ironic speech. Too much ironic speech.

Speaker 1 Oh, we don't have that problem. Yeah.
I imagine. Well, can we have the opposite problem? Yeah.
But

Speaker 1 it's a syndrome, I think. I think it's a syndrome.
Well, even that, I don't mind. Like, it's

Speaker 1 the internet show that you guys do, then that's the internet. Like, the whole thing is like meta and the jokes on jokes.
And it's

Speaker 1 but you were one of the best guests, if not the best guests on the show, by the way. Why? You just your reactions.
Yeah. I think that was a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 You came into it. People laughed at how I laughed.
It was a weird laugh. Yeah.
But I was trying to not interrupt too much because you're still talking. And if I'm

Speaker 1 cocoring throughout the whole thing, I was like, okay, I'll try and be like your soul

Speaker 1 about your body. But I was trying to be like gracious about not exploding.
No, it's not a lot of people.

Speaker 1 You cared a lot about

Speaker 1 us getting a good show, and that really helped, I think. Really helps.

Speaker 1 And I think also this world's the funniest to write jokes about. Yeah.
The kind of man. Really? Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 Because every guest we have on internet is to is fundamentally actually is to open up a world of jokes. This is

Speaker 1 about what's going on. It's not about Bonnie Blue.
It's about let's do things about OnlyFans and stuff like that. You know, we have wine culture.
Yeah, wine culture.

Speaker 1 But this is what I've been interested in for so long, this this whole world. And it just opens up anything motivational, anything kind of the kind of.

Speaker 1 Well, I think part of the reason it works so well is that

Speaker 1 you could laugh at it all. And I think that punctures the sincerity and the earnestness and the control that comes through in like clips of this and your other clips.

Speaker 1 A friend of mine actually was like, oh, yeah, I love that episode because I'd got those guys' clips and I thought, oh, fuck off, who's that guy? And then I saw the show. I was like, oh, fair play.

Speaker 1 He seems like a really nice person. He doesn't take himself too seriously.
And that's where the show actually, Finn Versus Internet, is best is when we had it it with M-DOT as well.

Speaker 1 It's like people think they come to it thinking, oh, good, they're going to tear this guy. I hate this guy.

Speaker 1 And then they see how they're laughing along and they're aware of the absurdity of what so you could humanize anybody. What that is, maybe it's dangerous.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I think what's tough about Bonnie was that, like, I knew, I knew we weren't going to get the same kind of reactions from her that we got from you or M-Dot.

Speaker 1 But I also thought if there's even a chance she submits to the silliness and even just engages with the fact that like all morals aside, the absurdity of what she's done, it is absurd.

Speaker 1 The numbers are hilarious. If she even submits to like laugh along with that, it would be amazing.
And obviously it will get views because she's very current.

Speaker 1 But I just thought, oh, if there's a chance we get her to kind of laugh at it, and I don't think she could because I think she's such a, she has these

Speaker 1 interviews with her. She has these sticks and she puts up a guard and she's allowed to.
She does get that's her protection. She's got stock phrases.

Speaker 1 She's got a soundboard of things she said.

Speaker 1 If you want to get it. I'm not dramatized.
I'm a feminist. I'm the real suffragette.

Speaker 1 That's her soundboard. She's blessed me all the time.

Speaker 1 But yeah, so it's always a.

Speaker 1 It's so funny for a show that is so like it's expensive to make. It's so stressful to make.
We write it for weeks before we film it. People think it's like a podcast.

Speaker 1 We have this two-hour window with the guests. We've got to get everything we think is funny about the show.

Speaker 1 It is a real. I felt the pressure.
Yeah. me, and there was no pressure on me.
It's a high-stakes thing.

Speaker 1 And it all ultimately, if it's a good episode or not, rests on whether the guest is. It's in a good mood.

Speaker 1 Because if we've worked ages on a joke, like the four of us, Paddy, Young, Vittorio, and us two,

Speaker 1 if we really care about a joke, you're in the room and sometimes the guest can trample it, doesn't get the right reaction. And it's just

Speaker 1 you tried to get me to say the word men. Oh, fuck yeah.
The barbershop quartet. That wasn't me trying to be awkward.
I was just trying to... You're probably just really confused.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I was like, because you were waiting to, we had to get the begin this thing and I didn't say the word men. I was like, well, it's, you know, guys,

Speaker 1 you know, it's like young dudes. And you were like.

Speaker 1 What is the opposite of a woman?

Speaker 1 Yeah. But it is that.
It's like this, it's such a stupid show.

Speaker 1 And so many, well, obviously it's a stupid show, but to make it, it's so stupid because it, you know, it's part, not that I'd ever do it on TV because I don't think it would work.

Speaker 1 But part of the reason that it wouldn't work on TV is that it's just too high stakes. Yeah, it's too high risk.
It's too high risk.

Speaker 1 It's too much of a noble medium compared to. Well, it's not just that the guests might walk out.
It's that really you have to get everything in one take, sort of. Have you had anyone walk out? Yeah,

Speaker 1 MDOT tried to, and then there were so many cameras in the way that he couldn't get out. But then I also think he was sort of playing along.

Speaker 1 He seemed like a really good sport. Yeah, he's great.

Speaker 1 I love him. Yeah, I'll tell you what, he charmed us.
Yeah, he really charmed us. Did you do, because we were messaging about this? Did you go and do some in America? No, so we've just,

Speaker 1 I think you could get Brian John. I think we could easily get Brian Johnson.
Finn as well. I think Finn's character is built for America.
I think Americans take themselves more seriously. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I just think there's so many people that are the clash will be much more serious. You know, Aubrey Marcus, owner of Onit, who founded Onit with Joe Rogan,

Speaker 1 recently revealed that he's

Speaker 1 in

Speaker 1 a polyamorous marriage where he's having kids with both

Speaker 1 partners kind of at the same time.

Speaker 1 There's something there for sure. There's just a standard moment.
Two family WhatsApp threads. I think it's all part of one.
Yeah, I think it's all part of one.

Speaker 1 Can't be. Can't be.
Two women and

Speaker 1 it'd be a group of wife. It'd be a group of different threads.

Speaker 1 Like the Slack channel would have a couple of different

Speaker 1 versions in the organization. But anyway, the earnestness thing is a really cool.
No, it's a really, really good point.

Speaker 1 Do I have a problem with that? I like ironic speech when it knows what it's doing.

Speaker 1 One of the problems with it only ever being irony is that you don't ever actually get to come into contact with reality or what someone thinks or what they feel about a thing. And that's kind of fine

Speaker 1 when there's a bit of self-awareness, but it feels like a lot of the stuff on the internet, if you look at most Twitter disputes, for X disputes, whatever, it's someone going like, I know you are, but what am I?

Speaker 1 It's this very standoffish. It's very insincere.
It's very sort of cutting and sardonic. And at some point.
point. I'm sorry to interrupt.
I think the problem is that with that is that you separate.

Speaker 1 Well, I certainly do. I mean, it's easier if you're a comic, but it's like everything I do online is comedy because it's online.
It's not real life.

Speaker 1 I then have a family life and a personal life that is not, you know, I don't use Instagram like a millennial. You're not being ironic with your kids.
You're not being used.

Speaker 1 It's me and my kids at a pumpkin patch at Halloween. Yeah.
Ooh, so many pumpkins. Who gives a fuck? That's not how I use it.
I use it to make comedy since I'm a comedian.

Speaker 1 I think that's how everyone actually treats online. It's not real.
But then there are people who cross the streams who are like comedians that then try and make actual points.

Speaker 1 Or maybe they interview like Trump genuinely and it's like never clear whether it's jokey or you're just platforming a guy or, you know, that whole world. Yeah, you open for a Trump rally.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's like, well, what are you at this point? Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Tony opening for Trump.
It's like, well, you. If you're anti-Trump, that's a great place to be as a comedian.
But it's funny. But if you're pro-Trump on a pro-Trump rally, then that...

Speaker 1 What's the point of this? You're just...

Speaker 1 the comedy doesn't get injured. I don't understand.

Speaker 1 Certainly, our viewer are comedy. Well, that's the, I think you separate church and state.
That's what I think you do. But also, on the separate them.
I do agree with you.

Speaker 1 You know, there's a danger with the irony and insincerity that nothing is

Speaker 1 meaningful. But

Speaker 1 something that's also symptomatic of that culture is: I do think there's a lot of

Speaker 1 bad sincerity out there. There's fake sincerity.
The other side.

Speaker 1 There's this irony. There's performative sincerity and performative artists.
Or like sincerity, it's like you don't know who you are, and you're just sounding sincere. There's this, the music.

Speaker 1 Let it all work out.

Speaker 1 That music playing underneath it. But what you're saying is absolute bollocks.
I would much rather be ironic and sarcastic if you have nothing meaningful to say in a sincere since. Also,

Speaker 1 the curtain's fallen, right? And that people know that, you know, like a mum influencer is broadcasting her private life for followers. for money for branding.

Speaker 1 So how can you say that that's earnestness?

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's not earnestness because you have privatized, you privatized your home life and therefore you live in a state where you can't actually live earnestly because at any point you're thinking well this is a moment always performative exactly so actually i think online will always be sarcastic and ironic and dumb and what people need to get better at doing is realizing when people are real and when they're not and

Speaker 1 take online less seriously yeah because it is but i guess it is serious well that's the thing is that you have things like charlie kirk and it all kind of bleeds in and kirk was clearly doing there was moments things what he said where I think he would say it's like more of a shtick, it's rage bait.

Speaker 1 And does he end up getting killed for that? Who knows? Like, like, do you know what I mean? It's at what point would he separate his clips from him as a person? It all seems quite models.

Speaker 1 Yeah, definitely. And it's really, it's something I think about a lot.
And you're right. Somebody that is

Speaker 1 thinks they're being earnest and is just not self-aware.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 that is their whole sort of persona online, like the performance has like got inside of the person and is staring out through their eyes, and they haven't been able to separate out themselves from that anymore.

Speaker 1 That's cringe. Yeah, that makes everybody like or it's a grift, or it's yeah, yeah, yeah, or maybe they are aware, or they're half aware, or they've got whatever.

Speaker 1 But that, that is what that's like catnip to the internet, right? Like pointing out this person

Speaker 1 snake, yeah, yeah, grifter, shill,

Speaker 1 whatever, yeah, yeah, uh, you know where you can do that in real life, though, yeah,

Speaker 1 you can do it in real life, yeah, pito! So, you know where nonce nonce comes from? You know where the word nonce comes from. Or is it not

Speaker 1 on normal courtyard exercise? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Prison stuff.
So good. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Anyway, just, yeah, the earnestness ironic speech thing is, I think it does dependent. It would be nice to have some people.

Speaker 1 Brian Johnson, for all that you can criticise, he is quite self-aware about how insane his life is and to tweet something like, I can promise you I will die in the most ironic way.

Speaker 1 That's why I'd love to have him on our show because I think actually because people would go going oh it's this fucking guy because people judge they hate him because it feels like he's telling them to live better and then people always hate that so they go fuck this guy and then if he could laugh at it with us people

Speaker 1 fair fair play yeah you know and I think that's kind of what the show is it's like a sense of humor test almost

Speaker 1 which is a very British thing I think it's it's a very British yeah do you find the American British British thing because obviously you know you grew up in Stockton Britain and I feel you Stockton is bastard Stockton

Speaker 1 very British it's very British worst place I went on that tour last year what's was quite interesting is when you said where you lived and you without a pause said that's the worst place i've ever been it's the worst place suckson yeah the escape velocity that you need to get out of there is quite high and like the northeast

Speaker 1 castle northumberland's gorgeous part of the world yeah

Speaker 1 it's bass yeah it had a but you got the appeal of america right would be this attitude it feels like even though you're you're british you are much more enamoured with the American poison there's no ceiling

Speaker 1 or that's the kind of all there's more sincerity in america to a degree there's less self-awareness all the time

Speaker 1 um

Speaker 1 the big thing for me is sort of enthusiasm or encouragement that i seem to thrive maybe it's low self-esteem i if the people around me are pretty enthused and encouraging like oh i like i can maybe go and do that thing like in that game

Speaker 1 no whatever the opposite is gravity is like five times heavier in stockton than it than it is anywhere else so that i know i just liked being around it um i had this debate with Piers Morgan, and he said, I love when my friends sort of piss taking is sort of my favorite mode of bonding.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, yeah, I get that. And every British working class guy grows up with that as like the mode of bonding between you and your friends.

Speaker 1 Ironic speech. Yeah, every class.

Speaker 1 Ironic speech, lack of earnestness, sort of piss-taking. But after a while,

Speaker 1 if you never come into contact with sincerity,

Speaker 1 it kind of feels a bit like, well, like, where does the world exist? Is it all this like hyper world? Like,

Speaker 1 where is something? But also that, that, you know,

Speaker 1 when I go to America, in the first day, I'm like, the, you know, the tipping and the service. I'm like, fuck off.
They're a bit much, aren't they? Hey there, I'm going to be your waiter.

Speaker 1 Like, all that. And then you get into it and you're like, oh, this is really nice, actually.
Yeah. Because it's a holiday.
And then I don't think if I could live there. You could live there.

Speaker 1 Because it's too much. I'm cursed.
Yeah, I'll never not be. It's too sugar rush.

Speaker 1 I'll never shed my Englishness and I do think I'd find it. But I'm also very European.
I like walking around.

Speaker 1 I like walking around. I like people being rude to me in shops.
I just don't.

Speaker 1 New York might work. Yeah.
New York's feelings. Those are people that like walking around.
New York feels European, the most European part of the States.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I've enjoyed I've enjoyed that, but you're right. It's dose dependent for America stuff.
And there's a small contingent of British and Irish people in Austin.

Speaker 1 And I think that we sort of cling on to each other like life rafts. You must need a bit of a break, right? Yeah.
Yeah. But there's still

Speaker 1 a little bit less, a tiny bit more.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think mercifully a lot of the team that I work with, they're still, I mean, British guys, like, so yeah. Beautiful British boys.
Platriots, yeah. Platriot.

Speaker 1 I wanted to ask you guys if you knew.

Speaker 1 I found an interesting snippet of history. Did you look at the dancing plague of 1518? No, I don't.
We haven't. Not yet.
Not yet. Can I tell you about it? I'm aware of it, but yeah.
Okay.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. People just can stop dancing.
Oh, yeah, we did talk about it. Yeah.
All right. Well, maybe you did that.
No, no, we didn't. I'm going to do a bit on the dancing plague of 1518.

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Speaker 1 Best of all, they've got a no-questions asked refund policy with an unlimited duration, so you can buy it and try it for as long as you want.

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Speaker 1 Right now, you can get a free sample packet of Element's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to drink lmnt.com slash modern wisdom that's drinklmnt.com slash modern wisdom entire towns in europe literally danced themselves to death began in july in strasbourg when a woman named frau trophia stepped into the street

Speaker 1 beautiful language beautiful people frau trophia

Speaker 1 began uh stepped into the street and began dancing uncontrollably within a week dozens joined her and within a month the number had grown to 400 people.

Speaker 1 Many danced for days without rest, and some reportedly died from exhaustion, stroke, or heart attack. Authorities were baffled.
Doctors ruled out supernatural causes.

Speaker 1 Don't know how you do that, and blamed it on hot blood. Incredibly, they even hired musicians and built a stage, hoping that people would dance it out.
That only made things worse.

Speaker 1 The cause remains a mystery. Theories range from mass hysteria, triggered by stress and famine, to ergot poisoning, but no explanation is universally accepted.
I mean, there's not much to do.

Speaker 1 It's always ergot. That's what.

Speaker 1 It is kind of the god of the gaps of. of...
Well, that's not an egot. That's...
What's an ergot? Ergot. It's not winning an Emotion.
No, we talked about...

Speaker 1 No, it's not an Emmy, a Crammy, an Oscar and a Tone. No, it's the

Speaker 1 wheat. It's the wheat thing.
When bread goes bad, supposedly it's witch trials, witch crazes. Right.
Because... Moldy bread.
Moldy bread. A woman eats some moldy bread and she goes, cuckoo.

Speaker 1 That's solved. And blokes just like, well, string her up.
Witch. Yeah,

Speaker 1 exactly. Yeah, but the dancing stuff is, you know, I guess how are you going to get your dopamine rush? You need that somewhere.
For a month? It's pre-fancy. 400 people dancing for a month.

Speaker 1 Dancing for a month. It's like the worst version of the

Speaker 1 dynamic in history.

Speaker 1 Some did. Many danced for days without rest, and some reportedly died from exhaustion, stroke, or heart attack.
They could have just accidentally synthesized some kind of drug, couldn't they? Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then

Speaker 1 for a month, it lasts for a month. They probably could just keep eating it because they're not aware of

Speaker 1 pre-dosage, isn't it? And also, you're a God-fearing people, so if you get anything psychedelic, you think you're being a little bit more. But even in the, we did this in the Greeks.

Speaker 1 You remember the wine, the Dionysian cult, they'd all drink

Speaker 1 wine, and they'd, yeah, they'd, they'd, they'd eat, what's it called? The eating a goat with your bare hands. There's like a word for it.
Um, or eating an animal, tearing an animal apart. Yeah,

Speaker 1 yeah, that was that was wine culture 2,000 years ago. You drink a glass of wine, they go,

Speaker 1 like that bloke that you had on the show, yeah, Tom. Yeah, yeah, well, that's where it's ended up now.
And now it's now it's a Poncy guy walking around London going, ooh, shardanet.

Speaker 1 Like, that's that's how the the story of wine has changed yeah eating goat with your bare hand yeah to walk around and that was beer culture what are they drinking a day what are they drinking a day

Speaker 1 what they eat in a day yeah uh what about darwin you did darwin is yeah one of my one of my favorites yeah scientific races well why was your favorite is the the story of darwin on the beagle fine

Speaker 1 when we start getting into i do think one of our best episodes is part two of that series uh where we look at the birth of eugenics yeah yeah basically darwin was looking at bugs and writing it it in his little notebook and everyone's like brilliant uh let's rank races this is i love all of these theories yeah that's brilliant let's measure uh black people's skulls yeah and say how low their iq is

Speaker 1 phrenology

Speaker 1 physiognomy phrenology there's something so funny about the esteem of scientists when the science is completely wrong yeah that is what do you mean hilarious well the smartest people in that age were the most racist yeah so it's been sort of we have a we have a catchphrase on the podcast which will he's a scholar and a racist yeah because in the 19th century it was scholarly to be racist.

Speaker 1 And also, the idea of

Speaker 1 racial science. Victorian polymath.
It will be people who have done extraordinary things in multiple fields, invented

Speaker 1 the weather pane, invented

Speaker 1 so many different forms of science history, but they also

Speaker 1 ran Francis Galton. Galton.
Who

Speaker 1 invented the modern weather maps, meteorology,

Speaker 1 so many things, but he was also a massive eugenicist. And he literally invented the dog whistle.
That was, we found out on the podcast, and that was one of our biggest.

Speaker 1 So when you say dog whistle politics, when you're talking about race, but you're using words like urban and inner city, when you're actually, what you mean is black people.

Speaker 1 And that's like a way of saying that. It's like a dog whistle.

Speaker 1 That's why I call it a dog whistle because you can attune to it if you hear it. You can hide messages and speech that you can get away.
But he invented the actual

Speaker 1 dog whistle. He invented dogs.
And what's a eugenicist?

Speaker 1 But to be fair to him, he never did dog whistles because he was just saying. No, he was shouting at dogs.
Yeah, well, you didn't need to dog whistle.

Speaker 1 Yeah, there was no, he was writing a book saying, you know. Black people are stupid.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Somebody had dog whistles. It's not calling your dog.
You know that Galton had... Fenton! Fenton!

Speaker 1 It's the opposite of dog, obviously.

Speaker 1 He had a pattern for how you could cut a cake so that it wouldn't go off. A circular cake.

Speaker 1 You weren't allowed to cut it like that. I don't know.

Speaker 1 I don't know. He'd registered it.

Speaker 1 I read an article by Adam Mastriani about Francis Galton. It's fascinating.
I mean, again, birthed some pretty dangerous.

Speaker 1 Scolinarasis.

Speaker 1 So you circular cake and you sort of cut a corridor out the middle of it and you push it together. That was apparently revolutionary in the early 90s.

Speaker 1 He's a brilliant man.

Speaker 1 Well, yeah, as opposed to cutting a wedge and then how do you fill the wedge? Right. It's exposed from the inside.

Speaker 1 His sister had some

Speaker 1 spinal problem. Yes.
So he taught her as she was laying, she would be laying facing the ceiling and he would read to her. I think she would read to him.
And that was that she would lay on a table.

Speaker 1 And that was how they would, because he was homeschooled.

Speaker 1 He also said in his, whatever, biography or memoir, that when he started working in the doctor's office or a pharmacist's office, that he decided he was just going to try every

Speaker 1 different medicine from A to Z. Yeah.
And he got to one that was, I think, C or D. I can't remember what it was that he took.

Speaker 1 And it caused him to shit himself so badly that he remembered it five decades later. Oh, right.
And then he stopped after that.

Speaker 1 To be fair, I don't think you want to ever be able to sort of brush off shitting yourself. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But you remember it.

Speaker 1 You don't want them to blur into one time. It's past the point, I think.
Right, okay. Yeah, part of the age of Europe.
Past the age of what, 10? Yeah, yeah. I think once you add on.

Speaker 1 I can remember when I shake myself. Yeah.
You want those to be memorable.

Speaker 1 You hold on to them. They're almost a little bit more.
The formative memories. The formative memories.
You don't want it to be like, I'm shitting myself so much, I couldn't possibly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I don't know what day it is. I just know that I've shattered myself.
It could be a Tuesday. I remember when I didn't shit myself.

Speaker 1 That's memory

Speaker 1 today i didn't shit myself and that's very distinct because normally i'm constantly covered in shit um but that that episode was there was crazy stuff which because of um because of the nazis you can't even go back over it in the same way when it's not so we discovered so many what you was like uh because uh uh of the kind of moral consensus that came after World War II saying that all of this stuff is

Speaker 1 racial science this is leading to

Speaker 1 genocide and the and the holocaust kind of was the full stop on it meant that where it goes so people would miss this 80 years that was leading up to that that had so much funny stuff if you view the world like we do yeah um but there was amazing stuff where there was like disabled people campaigning for themselves to be sterilized sterilized out of yeah saying i cannot read i shouldn't have kids in a misspelled sign i was gonna say run the sign well that's an amazing photo of of people and we don't know whether they're genuinely meant to be able to

Speaker 1 people holding the signs or they're people pretending

Speaker 1 to be a false flag. Yeah, yeah, Christian.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 there was a.

Speaker 1 Yeah, they're like the Sandy Hook victims.

Speaker 1 There was a massive thing.

Speaker 1 What did we find out? It was like, so there's a big camp in the 20s in America.

Speaker 1 America and interestingly, the America and Nazi Germany were like, they were the two people who were really going for eugenics. And there was a eugenics

Speaker 1 office. I don't know where

Speaker 1 the race race. Yeah, it was the race for race, not like the race for life.

Speaker 1 And they were, and there was something about because in the build-up to the 30s, like America, like Ford were basically militarizing Germany, like all the Nazi industrialization, the re-immilitarization was a lot of American companies.

Speaker 1 And there was a fucking eugenics, this was when eugenics was a charity. Right.

Speaker 1 It was like a eugenics charity in America who were writing, or rather, Hitler took, just copy and pasted their text and made it Nazi policy on racial science.

Speaker 1 But they influenced a lot of American states. And I think the most amount of forcible sterilization, involuntary sterilization, in Stel

Speaker 1 is California. Yeah.
Which coincidentally is where everyone looks the fittest. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's quite funny. It's quite funny that

Speaker 1 Sunshine State was where the most selective breeding happened in America. There's also this amazing graph, which was, was it Victorian about the, when they were trying to categorize stupid people?

Speaker 1 Yes. So you have, I think at the top, you have moron.
Moron is the cleverest stupid person. Yeah, see this is the side.
So moron can do simple.

Speaker 1 This is scientific terms for what we'd now say mental health conditions. This is what the scientific term was in the world.
So like imbecile and

Speaker 1 stuff would be in here.

Speaker 1 You do moron, which I think means that you can do low thinking skills. I think is that? Like low cerebral tasks.

Speaker 1 There's cretin going to be in here, I imagine. And then it's high-grade imbecile, which means you can only do stuff with your hands.

Speaker 1 Then, medium-grade imbecile, low-grade imbecile, and then at the bottom is idiot, which means you can't do anything. Yeah, you can't keep yourself alive.
It's an idiot.

Speaker 1 That's where that word comes from. But I didn't realize that moron was ranked above idiot, and imbecile was in between.
I didn't really rank. In your bio back in the day, you'd have like proud moron.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Right, okay, because you just can't be the top of the bottom of the list.
Well, it's more, it's more the mental health labels nowadays. People are like autistic queen or whatever.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 In 1910, you'd say proud moron.

Speaker 1 You'd say imbecile ally

Speaker 1 or whatever. You know, imbecile adjacent.
Yeah, imbecile adjacent. Yeah.
Medium grade imbecile. Oh, my God.
So, how much was Darwin at fault for his

Speaker 1 more than we thought he was? Well, it's Darwin's cousin. Darwin writes the book on the theory of natural selection, then there's another one.

Speaker 1 But then a lot of people around him go, yeah, this explains

Speaker 1 they bring in Malthusian concepts of like the poor and like,

Speaker 1 what's that thing where you're talking about lizards, guys? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, we get it. Yeah, we get it.
We get it. Chinese people are stupid.
They know what you're saying.

Speaker 1 And so it's Darwin's cousin, who might actually, it's Galton, maybe Galton was Darwin's cousin. I can't remember.
Anyway,

Speaker 1 they take the work and apply it to things like, you know, the empire, slavery, all these things are, they're trying to sort of retroactively justify things like colonization and slavery.

Speaker 1 Imperialism. Yeah, it makes sense to them through that lens that these people are stupid because we've conquered them.
Yeah. And we have to paternalistically nurture them to our level.

Speaker 1 I mean, Hitler's is very Darwin and Hitler's

Speaker 1 power of the world. Hitler's the bonny blue of scientific racism.

Speaker 1 Taking it as far as it can find.

Speaker 1 As far as it can be. Levaron James.
The numbers.

Speaker 1 And I mean that for both. The numbers.

Speaker 1 But like, you know, Hitler takes scientific racism to the end point. And

Speaker 1 that's why everyone goes, well, we're not even touching this stuff. Phrenology is debunked.
All this stuff is,

Speaker 1 you know, is not science. But we're bringing phrenology back, aren't we? Yeah, we are.
Just because it's very funny to

Speaker 1 call ourselves. Have you done it in

Speaker 1 the thing where all guests are going to get calipers out and we're going to measure? And we're going to have like a top gear leaderboard. So we're sort of like.
And is it bigger head is better?

Speaker 1 No, thicker. Thicker.
Yeah. Thicker head is better.
Bigger head, stupider. Yeah.
Mentally thick. Smaller head, better.
Yeah,

Speaker 1 it's a complicated science. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
I know you wouldn't get it. You wouldn't get it.

Speaker 1 You're not wearing a suit. You're not qualified.

Speaker 1 It's true. I mean, I'm a sure phrenologist.
Your head's too big. We should do branded merch calipers.
We should do branded calipers.

Speaker 1 It's a good idea. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Do you think

Speaker 1 we're about to go into a world with embryo selection for ideas? You know, yeah, it's not a million miles away from

Speaker 1 sort of gene therapy, isn't it? And all that stuff. And is that that's legal in the US? You can.
Embryo selection is. Embryo editing is not.
Right. So you can do.

Speaker 1 Editing means you can just be like, yeah, yeah, get rid of that. Well, that's good.
That's nice.

Speaker 1 Because what about like the BRCA gene and all that, those genes that cause cancer and it's a woman's thing you wouldn't know what it is but um

Speaker 1 some women have this gene mutation called a braca which means that they're very likely to get ovarian or breast cancer aged 40 and that's where it turns out most ovarian cancers from this one gene mutation that you can screen for supposedly you can screen for it in a in an unborn baby or an embryo i don't know if that's legal or not i don't know uh you i'm i'm pretty sure you can screen for everything now.

Speaker 1 I mean, there's companies in America that will allow you to do a polygenic risk score. You do a little sample, and then they'll say, well, here's a dashboard, 10 fertilized eggs.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And if you embryo one, you're like, wow, intelligence is high, but immune system is quite low and autism risk is quite high.

Speaker 1 And then you go look at the second one, like, well, the intelligence is back. Unless you have like a sort of mixing board, but you can't

Speaker 1 set it up. So you can only choose.

Speaker 1 It's like having.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it is like Top Trumps or FIFA when you get the player stats.

Speaker 1 Yeah. But you can choose.
You've got got your harvest.

Speaker 1 Build a five-side team.

Speaker 1 Or you go in gold, big hands. That's good.
Literally like that. And you can do that.
I don't know if you quite at the back. I think it's kind of weird about that is

Speaker 1 everybody has some sort of understanding that traits are heritable, right? That's how dog breeding has occurred. That's why people have got the same eye color as their parents, et cetera.

Speaker 1 So there's some amount of heritability. But because eugenics was such bad branding for anything that was to do with behavioral genetics, Yeah.

Speaker 1 That it's like everyone's got this like, oh, fucking hell. Squeamishness about it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's real ick, but this is going to bring it back into front and center because as soon as parents realize that they can select their kids. So that's how ugly kids.
Brilliant.

Speaker 1 They're going to have, they're more likely to go to Ivy League. They're more likely to.

Speaker 1 But what's going to be interesting is if everyone is selected, it's going to be like how middle class families decorate their living room. It's going to be a sign of taste.

Speaker 1 It's going to be like, oh, that's embarrassing. You chose your kid to be like that.
That was very like trendy for the time, but now it's gauche. It's very gauche.
It's dating.

Speaker 1 That's a new money that kids are doing. Yeah, it's like, that's a new money.
Like, it's new genes. That's new genes.
We're old genes. As the only parent here,

Speaker 1 the whole thing about parenthood is that you don't choose the card you're dealt and you raise the kid no matter what the kids play the ball where it lies you can only play the team in front of you You're a parent to your kid.

Speaker 1 That's why you should never really take advice from any other parent because they're dealing with another kid. And so wouldn't you say what if you're cutting out like really severe

Speaker 1 like the far end of it? What about cutting out severe disorders and stuff? Well, yeah, if you can do that.

Speaker 1 I guess we just wear that line as well. Yeah, it's not that.
This is exactly.

Speaker 1 It's the exact question, which is, okay, we say that selecting against Huntington's or like negative traits is good, but when it's just a single spectrum, the argument is it's just a single spectrum all the way up to, well, a more robust immune system means that they're going to survive.

Speaker 1 So, and then, well, you know, intelligence is correlated with not going to jail isn't correlated with life satisfaction. No, but all, all that, yeah, all that stuff.

Speaker 1 I mean, you have to have, surely it's a suffering line where all the rest, that's not predestined, that's not predetermined. You can't predetermine whether someone's going to go to jail.

Speaker 1 That's fascinating. But you can predict it.
You can predict it at least a little bit. Higher IQ is negatively correlated with the likelihood of going to jail.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but again, that's like

Speaker 1 if you've got a higher IQ, you'll be in a safer,

Speaker 1 normally you're probably in a safer home. Retroactively, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 I haven't done the data. No, but what I mean is that I guess part of the thing about being a parent is that you just have to, you're dealing with the kid you get.

Speaker 1 And mentally, it's a much easier journey if you are like, well, this is the kid I've got. This is the kid I'm going to be.
As a person, this is the kid I should. As this is.

Speaker 1 That's a good point. Rather than going, well, I actually.

Speaker 1 I should have picked differently because the whole time. The choice paralysis you have when you're picking what your kid's going to be.
Like, Netflix

Speaker 1 is not going to be awesome. It's not too many pings.
Because you're like, oh, fuck. No, I shouldn't have picked that.
He's so fucking annoying. As if this isn't 80s China.
There's no return possible.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because also you probably love your kid less in many ways

Speaker 1 the

Speaker 1 magic. The unrequitedness of the love for your child is this is no matter what, this is destiny.
This is what's meant to happen. But if you're like, I fucked up.
And you actually,

Speaker 1 yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. And also you shout at them when you fall out of them in their teenage.
Yeah, your whole point is you watch them grow. Yeah, and you don't have very much control over them.

Speaker 1 So if you go into it thinking you have control,

Speaker 1 mentally, that is the worst place to be in when you have children is thinking you have control over it.

Speaker 1 You don't have any control. You're just trying to keep them alive

Speaker 1 and make sure that they are happy.

Speaker 1 That's the mental, that's my advice.

Speaker 1 Surrender control. Yeah.
Because you're not in control of anything. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Have you found that hard? No, that's great. It's liberating.
Hands off the wheel. But you try to.
Hands off the wheel.

Speaker 1 I'm driving the car.

Speaker 1 They just,

Speaker 1 they're just shitty everywhere, naked. Yeah, just hands off.

Speaker 1 Whatever, man. Whatever.

Speaker 1 But you know, you're trying to drive a career forward and the show and all of the prep and all the rest of the things that you do.

Speaker 1 Ring-fencing that, partitioning that off and saying, oh, but I'll just, you know, hope for the best with finding the line, finding the line between control and not holding it.

Speaker 1 It's like at this stage, you know, they're four and two.

Speaker 1 They're like, if I'm around a lot, that's good, you know, because the alternative is to go, well, well, my career, I've, you know, but your career is a never end, like it's a never-ending thing.

Speaker 1 And I don't think you look back on your life saying, I wish I'd worked more.

Speaker 1 You know, an interesting situation that people are in now, at least some people that have the choice of whether or they want to work or not work. Yeah.

Speaker 1 That we went very quickly from a world where the dad was five days a week up at five in the morning and then back on an evening trying to, you know, single family income, single person income type thing to now

Speaker 1 people have

Speaker 1 started to put that philosophy forward as them. It's self-generated.

Speaker 1 It's like, well, I'm going to push myself into my career because i want to validation etc etc it's like well you've got the the someone who is pretty validating there playing next to you but i also think i mean i get a lot of these reels about like the science behind dads but there is there's a there's a woman you might have had her on doctor i think she's a doctor sounds like one who's talking to

Speaker 1 says that a child's uh mental health is linked to how uh available and present their dad is maybe it's daughter maybe it's girls maybe daughter's mental health okay um and i just think just being around is like, as a dad, you know, you can be, you can be hopeless, but if you're around, just be around, you're doing something.

Speaker 1 Do you feel like a bit of a spare part for the first few years? Like, you're like a cheerleader from the side. For every six months,

Speaker 1 you are a spare part, but then

Speaker 1 you need to prop up the wife.

Speaker 1 You're there as the pit crew. Kind of.
But also, I think that's something men told themselves to. to be like, oh,

Speaker 1 it's not really my thing.

Speaker 1 It's a defense, it's a comfort blanket blanket being like, oh, I don't know what I'll do. You know, there's a lot you can.
I'm not even needed here. There's a lot you can do.

Speaker 1 Everything that isn't the kid. You can bottle feed the kid.
Like,

Speaker 1 I saw a video. No, I couldn't bottle.

Speaker 1 I saw a video of a guy on a plane who must have been.

Speaker 1 Maybe the wife wasn't there. He was traveling with just relative, like, newborn-y type kid and tried to bottle feed, didn't want to, put a photo of the wife over his face

Speaker 1 and stuck the bottle through

Speaker 1 a hole in the t-shirt. Fine.
Yeah. I mean, they're idiots.
You can check them. Outwitted them.
Yeah. Then he starts doing it without the kid, and it's like, oh, you enjoyed it too much.

Speaker 1 That's a dog. That's not a kid.

Speaker 1 Madness.

Speaker 1 But yeah, I mean, I get it.

Speaker 1 The whole gene therapy thing, I think you're kind of ruining the surprise of parenthood.

Speaker 1 And I guess, you know, suffering is a legitimate debate as to how much suffering you're going to get out of someone.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I just think it's a slippery slope because you will just start having these expectations

Speaker 1 as a kid that are like more foundational than your own neuroses in that you have bought and ordered your own child. Yeah.
So you're gonna go

Speaker 1 mad. Yeah, you knew you should have got the new fucking subaru in grey instead of in white.

Speaker 1 When we were potty training, my daughter, because we have a dog and the dog shits outside, there was about six months my daughter would go outside to have a shit. You learned from the dog.

Speaker 1 Because she learned from the dog. And then you're like, well, how do I explain to a three-year-old that you're not a dog and the toilet is here if i had bought a genius i would be so livid

Speaker 1 but because the fact that she's at least not pulling on the floor i'm proud of her

Speaker 1 i'm proud of her you know

Speaker 1 yeah i uh i don't know maybe maybe we'll see the the new world of i think that i should be present like that's uh you know revolutionary if you were to look back 50 years yeah yeah it's like i'll meet you when you're 18 yeah imagine Kind of.

Speaker 1 Handshaking a glass of scotch when you're 18.

Speaker 1 The Churchill thing, just going back to that, I remember I read a letter from him. He said to his father how proud he was to have finally got into this regiment.
Right.

Speaker 1 And his dad responds with just the most fucking hurting.

Speaker 1 And it's this whole thing, like you have.

Speaker 1 uh cost me this much money you have failed wanton and disrespect and all the rest of it and then at the end of it he signs off and he says your mother sends her love

Speaker 1 Yeah. Fucking right at that.
At least. Yeah.
So being around, just being there.

Speaker 1 I think that does something. Yeah.
Yeah. Even if you're getting shouted out all the time.
Yeah. Just be around.
Just being around.

Speaker 1 Gentlemen, what are you doing next? What can people expect over the next few weeks? Well, I don't know when this is coming out.

Speaker 1 Probably

Speaker 1 three weeks, something like that.

Speaker 1 Okay, so we'll be in the middle of our tour. Yeah.
But that's what we're doing. Which is sold out so that people can't get to it.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 There's stuff in the pipeline. There's lots of stuff.
Finverse versus internet. There's stuff that there's Finn vs.
History twice a week.

Speaker 1 I checked this morning. We're like the 26th Patreon in the world.
So join the Patreon. Join the Patreon.
Join the army. What do you get for being in the Patreon? You get a bonus episode every week.

Speaker 1 You get early access to the week's episodes. Add free listeners.
And I think the main thing, right? It's Finn versus History and the Internet. Yeah, so there's several tiers.

Speaker 1 So you can pay for both shows. You can pay just one.

Speaker 1 I think the main thing people would do to the Patreon is especially with the history podcast, everyone wants the episodes immediately.

Speaker 1 Because if you miss the one part, people don't like being forced to wait for the next part. So the main thing.
You want to binge or you can get 10 about the Prime Minister.

Speaker 1 If it's like two weeks, you can get four. They're like lamby tunes.
They just don't stop eating. Yeah.

Speaker 1 You just eat 10 hours of total production a day. Yeah.
And they're thrown up everywhere, bloated. Yeah.
No. It's awesome.
I really think that what you guys are doing is super cool. Oh, thanks.

Speaker 1 Thanks, man. I really look forward to this.
Thanks for the scene. No, my pleasure.
My pleasure. Until next time, boys.
Thanks, Chris. Cheers.

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