#1022 - Sheehan Quirke - How Did The Modern World Get So Ugly?

Speaker 1 What is beauty?

Speaker 2 Some hell of a question.

Speaker 2 I think the word is overused and misunderstood.

Speaker 2 The best way to think about beauty, the most helpful way, is to think of it as synonymous with the word love.

Speaker 2 Once you do that, all the complications kind of fade away. I think beauty is basically love manifest in the physical world.

Speaker 2 But anyway, so that's how I think of beauty, because I think.

Speaker 1 Because you're a hopeless romantic.

Speaker 2 Oh, I'm a hopeless romantic. Well, I'm a hopeful romantic, let's say.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 But I think the problem is

Speaker 2 once you start talking about beauty, what is beauty? It's kind of like asking, what is art? It's a very, very interesting question, but you can end up talking.

Speaker 2 We could spend the whole two hours or however long we're going to be here just talking about, well, maybe beauty is this, maybe beauty is that, but what about this? Same with art.

Speaker 2 I think it's very helpful to agree on a pretty simple definition and then move on to the more important stuff.

Speaker 2 So taking beauty, I think people obsess too much over the idea of beauty, like is the modern world beautiful? Is architecture beautiful? Is design beautiful? Is this room beautiful?

Speaker 2 I don't think it's helpful. I think more helpful words are interesting, charming, and meaningful.
They're the words I prefer to use.

Speaker 1 Delineate those for me.

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 2 well, I think interesting is the opposite of boring. And I think, you know, a lot of what I write about online

Speaker 2 and what generates an awful lot of interest is when you talk about the ugliness of the modern world.

Speaker 2 But I think boringness is a much more important and powerful word. Because again, ugly and beautiful,

Speaker 2 they feel very subjective. But when you say boring, it's a lot easier to agree on what is boring.
And I think something being boring is a bigger problem.

Speaker 2 I've often said to my friends, the one thing human beings cannot stand is being bored. Like we can put up with a lot of stuff.
We can put up with suffering and misery

Speaker 2 and ugliness. We can put it with that, but being bored is the worst thing.
And I think actually being bored has driven a lot of events and movements in human history.

Speaker 2 I often think a lot of revolutionaries end up being revolutionaries just because they're bored. And a revolution is exciting.
It's the chance to be part of something. And anyway, yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay. So we've got interesting, which is the opposite of boring, presumably sort of engaging, captures attention, maybe memorable.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then

Speaker 2 charming. No, I love the word charming.
It's probably my favorite word. It's my word of the year.

Speaker 2 You know, charm when you see it and charm i think

Speaker 2 is is a kind of playfulness it's not too serious and it also respects the person looking at something or or viewing something when you make it charming right there's no obvious use to charm you know there's not really a profit margin professional yeah exactly but when it's charming it's like oh wow the person who made this thing has thought about has thought about me they wanted to give me you know something so something to look at something to to make me smile i think that's

Speaker 2 charmingness is kind of like playfulness, I guess.

Speaker 1 Whimsy in the experience.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and it doesn't have to be like, you know, where's Anderson level of whimsy, but it just has to show that there's something about this object

Speaker 2 that isn't just interesting in the straight sense of like having something to it other than what is basically necessary, but also,

Speaker 2 yeah.

Speaker 2 makes you smile and kind of reminds you in a way, in a way, charm what it does. It gets you out of your thoughts.

Speaker 2 You know, we're walking around and we're, you know, we're miserable thinking about, I've got to email this fan i think this all the time i hate emails so i've got to email this person i've got to read chris williamson's text or whatever and then you know then i see something charming and i smile and think you know what you're also chris williamson

Speaker 2 yeah indeed and then you think well isn't so bad and then finally meaningful which i guess

Speaker 2 i mean this conversation is more about the the physical world than anything else and meaningful basically uh can mean a few different things but uh

Speaker 2 a good example is when you walk around a town and and you find that the way things have been designed reflects something about that town, its people,

Speaker 2 and its history. I think that's what meaning is.
And it kind of brings you out of this generic, standardized, convenient, hyper-optimized online modern world.

Speaker 2 And it brings you back into the reality we were living in, the one that we have been since the dawn of civilization. So meaningful.

Speaker 2 charming and interesting are much more useful words than than beauty. And I think also they're much less inflammatory.

Speaker 2 Like, you know, if I put out on X or something about the modern world is so ugly or look at this, you know, the Palace of Assault is so beautiful, people start, you know, getting angry about it.

Speaker 2 But you say it's interesting, say it's charming. Or you take a sort of a modern building and say, well, this is boring.
People say, actually, you know what? You have a point. It is boring.

Speaker 2 It's just funny how quickly you can take

Speaker 2 the charge out of these conversations by using better words.

Speaker 1 I wonder whether some of this is because beauty and ugliness feels like a moral judgment. Yes.
It feels like a value. So

Speaker 1 I got a speech coach who you met at the Leicester Square,

Speaker 1 sorry, London last year, backstage Miles. And when I started working with him, some of my friends said, working with a speech coach is going to sort of neutralize your identity.

Speaker 1 What if you lose your speaking cadence? What if you lose who you are?

Speaker 1 And I found it really fascinating because I realized that there were preferable and less preferable, more optimal and less optimal ways to speak in the same way there are to write and in the same ways that there are to sing or play the piano.

Speaker 1 And nobody would say to you learning to play the piano, well, why are you going to that piano teacher? What about the lovely natural way that you play the piano? And you say, well, yeah, but it sucks.

Speaker 1 Or it can be refined. Even if I'm great, it can be refined.

Speaker 1 So what it taught me was that there are certain things that people attach closely to our sense of self. like the way that we speak.

Speaker 1 And there are other things that people don't attach so closely to our sense of self, like the way that we play the piano and it feels to me like beauty is this word that's imbued with moral weight with judgment oh it's it's it's the sense of the building or the piece of art or the poem itself as opposed to a simple comment on the way that it presents yeah exactly right so imagine like you know before you'd seen this this this um vocal coach i said you know chris the way you talk is ugly man that feels quite offensive but if i said to you you know the way you talk you can work and you can it's

Speaker 2 yeah, it's boring. Suddenly like, oh, wow, really? Like I should work on that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. I should work on my ugliness doesn't feel

Speaker 1 quite the same level of, what are you getting at? I want to see. So you bought props.

Speaker 2 I bought props. I'm so excited.
I went to Snappy Snaps a couple of hours ago. Oh, thanks.

Speaker 2 I spent like two hours in there because I'm not very good at emailing and I sent all the wrong files and there were Google workspaces.

Speaker 1 If you spent more time on your emails, you would be better at sending emails when you go to snappy snaps.

Speaker 2 Well, we can get into that. Okay.
The good news is here we are.

Speaker 2 So in in terms of the illustration because what I find is that when you talk about these things having visual illustrations helps so much you know the whole saying a painter a picture paints a thousand words it's so true and all you I've found in order to make points effectively all you have to do is contrast two things put two images next to each other and it says everything so when we talk about things being beautiful versus ugly interesting versus boring I have some pictures of drain pipes Now, I love drain pipes and gutters and air conditioning units and rail.

Speaker 2 Like, I love all the stuff that the world is filled with. It's amazing.

Speaker 2 You sort of don't really pay attention to it, but once you start noticing how much freaking stuff there is in the world, like go outside on the street, anybody here, you know, listening or watching, when you finish watching, which is hopefully not just yet, go outside and just look at how many things there are on the street outside.

Speaker 2 There's literally like the cars, the signs, the windows, the drains, everything. And all of that has been designed, right? This stuff didn't just appear.

Speaker 2 Like all everything in this room, it's all man-made.

Speaker 2 Like someone someone had to decide how all this stuff looked and I guess my big gripe and the thing that bothers a lot of people is that all these things around us feel increasingly boring and standardized and generic regardless of beauty so have some pictures of drain pipes and I will show them maybe I can maybe I don't know if you can we can put them yeah so these are some 19th century drain pipes

Speaker 2 And like, I'm not going to sit here and tell you these are beautiful. Like, I think that that would be crazy for me to say, oh, oh, Chris, isn't this beautiful? Isn't it?

Speaker 2 But what it is, it's charming. It's interesting.
It's fun and it's meaningful.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it's basically, it shouldn't be

Speaker 2 revolutionary idea, but it is that drain pipes can actually improve the appearance of a town or city or home. You think of it as something that has to be functional.

Speaker 2 And you want to get it out of the way, but you still have to see it. And it's like, well, you know, it's kind of ruining this wall.
No, our drain pipes can make our towns and cities more beautiful.

Speaker 2 They can make our lives better.

Speaker 1 Make drain pipes beautiful again exactly yeah and so here's another one comparing some of the same to some modern uh more modern drain pipes uh-huh how would you categorize the difference between the two in terms of what's what they are if you were trying to describe them to someone what do you mean so you have this list on the right and this list on the left what is the difference between those two because they do the same thing

Speaker 2 well that's I don't think they do do the same thing. Functionally, they do the same thing.
But this is the point. So you know this famous line, form follows function, right? Everyone knows that line.

Speaker 2 And everyone sort of thinks what that means is that the function is what matters and appearance is, you know, doesn't matter. That's kind of how people interpret it.

Speaker 2 That we shouldn't care about appearances. We should just care about how it works.

Speaker 2 But the guy who said that, Louis Sullivan, the great American architect, who kind of solved the big skyscraper problem in the late 19th century.

Speaker 2 So skyscrapers appeared in America, in Chicago first in the late 19th century. And like no one had ever seen a skyscraper before.
So no one knew how to make them look.

Speaker 2 And the first skyscrapers, it's so if you look you can go and see them or look at photos the first skyscrapers in america were basically just like stacks of smaller buildings you know you're going to sort of take what would normally be a three-story building and just replicate that for another 10 stories

Speaker 1 command c command v yeah exactly

Speaker 2 and suffering realized this is this is nonsense it's not working and he identified the chief characteristic of skyscrapers as what he called loftiness, you know, their height.

Speaker 2 And when he said form follows function, he was the guy who said it, what he meant is that its innermost purpose, the appearance must

Speaker 2 be suited to that.

Speaker 2 So what he did was he got rid of this weird multiplication thing and basically just made all the stories the same from the top to the bottom with all these horizontal lines and kind of

Speaker 2 in short, he figured out how to make them look good.

Speaker 1 I've done an architectural boat tour of Chicago.

Speaker 2 Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 I mean, so many people do this tour. It's musically, at least mine was musically accompanied.

Speaker 1 The guy, maybe it was a harmonica, but I went on on my own i was there on tour and uh i went on my own it's fucking freezing i wore shorts because i'm an idiot and i was enthralled it was brilliant it was so cool and you go and you see the fire there's this is where the fire was it goes down it does a u-turn you see everything of one side you see everything of the other i think it's got the tallest skyscraper in the world that was uh designed by a woman there uh it's got the tuning fork building with this sort of unbelievably thin bass and the way that they had to structure that in order for it to go.

Speaker 1 The most hilarious things. You're pulling in, very beginning, you go underneath the bridge from the harbor, you pull through, and they're showing you all of the different buildings.

Speaker 1 And he's going sort of from right to left, all the way around,

Speaker 1 right at the end, right in the middle, huge, big thing, big letters, Trump Tower, Chicago. And this guy's going, it is the tallest building in the world.
It was built by a woman.

Speaker 1 And this is using the granite that was imported from East Germany. And this is da-da-da.

Speaker 1 And moving over to the left, and he just completely leapfrogs the Trump thing. I'm like, it's probably safe.
It's probably safe. Some people are going to hooray you for doing it.

Speaker 1 Some are going to be not so happy and they just made the executive decision that

Speaker 2 we'll forget that building.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I thought it was quite funny.

Speaker 2 No, no, it's there. It is.
But by the way, we may need to mention that name again later in this conversation because Trump is weirdly

Speaker 2 and maybe unfortunately important in this conversation. You know, he, in both his terms, has done these executive orders.

Speaker 2 to say that all federal buildings need to be in traditional architectural styles

Speaker 2 which is I think, in some ways good and in some ways bad. But actually, I will put a bookmark there and we'll come back to it.

Speaker 2 Because on this point about form and function, Sullivan decorated his buildings, right?

Speaker 2 Like his skyscrapers have this beautiful sort of ornate terracotta paneling and all these floral wreaths and stuff. His point was just that the decoration should be suited to what the building is.

Speaker 2 The problem he felt in the 19th century, why he said that, is because people decorated everything the same. And he was saying, no, no, we need to decorate and design things according to their purpose.

Speaker 2 Not that they shouldn't be decorated.

Speaker 2 And in my view with those two different um sets of drain pipes you said you know they're both functionally functionally the same but i don't i disagree i think any object we design not in all cases you know i don't need the inside of my laptop to look beautiful right it's just got to freaking work which it still does by the way all these years later um but i think anything that's in the built environment in our homes in our offices and our streets, if it's not making that environment more humane, if it's not making the lives lives of people there better, it is not fulfilling its entire function.

Speaker 2 So those drain pipes on the right-hand side, I don't seem like I'm picking on them. You know, they do their job, which is great.
But my point is very simple.

Speaker 2 It's just like, if we can also make drain pipes that do their job and like make the world a more interesting place to live in, shouldn't we be doing that? And now

Speaker 2 why things have changed and how to achieve it, we may get into that. But I think that's the first point to establish.

Speaker 2 And yeah, this sounds kind of shocking to people, but drain pipes can be not beautiful but charming you know like all those weird creatures or whatever like imagine you know you're walking down the street and you see those it does something which doesn't occur when it's just a plain metal or plastic pipe well it's interesting when you say um form follows function but you ask what is the function is the function to add charm to your day so there's no reason that the job of a drain pipe needs to begin and end with water exactly yeah yeah i saw a photo

Speaker 1 you uh are the leader and traffic in the world of viral X posts about beautiful things and interesting, meaningful, charming. And

Speaker 1 I saw one, I think it was the inside of the latch on a door. So when you look at a door and there was all this engraving, have you imagined that this is a common currency that you traffic in?

Speaker 1 And yeah, another thing, you do kind of see it.

Speaker 1 You do.

Speaker 1 You don't see it much, right? But doors are left open, especially if it's an internal, like kitchen kitchen door or something like that. So why not make the edge of a door

Speaker 1 an opportunity to add charm? You go, well, what's the door for? Well, it's to create a boundary line, a territory line between the kitchen and the hallway.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 1 but what if it could be

Speaker 1 a source of charm?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, the analogy here is like, is life itself? Like, I'm not going to ask you what is the point of life right now, but like

Speaker 2 universally people agree the most important things in life are love and friends and fun and adventure and achieving stuff like all of that like that is beyond the function of life.

Speaker 2 Like if I said to you Chris, what is the meaning of life and you said well it's to not die and reproduce some people do believe that to be fair but most people don't think that about life and most people think a good life is one that has love in it and friendship more than raw functionality.

Speaker 2 So that the way we view life is that view of life is reflected in drain pipes like those.

Speaker 1 Wow. What a take.
Drain pipes are life.

Speaker 2 Yeah. But it's funny you mentioned

Speaker 2 virality of these things is so interesting to me. Like, because this is kind of how I got started on X or Twitter as it was then.

Speaker 1 Why don't you tell the story? Tell us the, regale us with how you began, how you became a cultural tutor.

Speaker 2 So, how did I become a cultural tutor? So my name is Shim Kwuak. I was born in Scunthorpe, of all places, actually.
Anyway, that's not really relevant.

Speaker 2 Well, it is maybe relevant, but I won't go into that just yet. So I went to university.
And then when university finished, this weird thing happened where all my friends had plans.

Speaker 2 And they went into their master's degrees. They went and got jobs in the city of London as lawyers and accountants and all that.

Speaker 2 And it kind of took me by surprise because I just did not have a plan at all.

Speaker 2 So I'd always wanted to be a writer. I've always been writing and reading.

Speaker 2 You know, since I was a child, my head has been, I've just, you know, my bedroom as a child was filled with nothing but books.

Speaker 2 And I always wanted to write and I've been writing since I was, you know, since I could first hold a pen, basically.

Speaker 2 And I'd always thought it would happen.

Speaker 2 And then this, then after I left university without a plan, I sort of got into this state of complacency where I was expecting life to just hand it to me on a plate.

Speaker 2 I sort of thought one day someone will knock on the door and say, Shin, we've heard you're a great writer. Here's a book deal.
Obviously, that's not how the world works.

Speaker 2 So I got a job as a security guard, sort of more or less. This was four years ago, doing the night shifts, you know, which I loved.
I love the night shifts, the 12-hour night shift. At

Speaker 2 my old university, actually. So it was when COVID came.
COVID came

Speaker 2 and then they ran out of night watchmen or porters, as they're called, because guys were off sick, they didn't want to work and all the students had gone.

Speaker 2 And I was still living there, just in like a small house with with my girlfriend at the time.

Speaker 2 And I needed a job, so they rang me and said, Shein, we don't have any porters left. Do you want to be one? Normally there are sort of guys who are in the 50s, 60s, semi-retired, retired.

Speaker 2 I said, sure, like I need a job. So I did that.
And I spent a year and a half

Speaker 2 unblocking toilets and like fixing door handles and

Speaker 2 sitting through the whole night and doing rounds and making sure no one was trying to break in or seal anything and in those night shifts i would write and stuff and watch films um but but in terms of the big picture where i wanted to be in life it wasn't happening i wasn't unhappy but um things weren't heading in any particular direction i left that job and then i realized i didn't have any money um i didn't have a job for about three months uh ran out of money I needed to pay the rent on this house I was living in.

Speaker 2 I borrowed money from my friends and my family and I just needed a job as quick as I could. So I just went on indeed, applied to everything.

Speaker 2 Pizza Hut rejected me, but McDonald's said yes. And so on the 2nd of January, 2022, I went for my interview.
And then two days later, I was there. And I wasn't a burger flipper.

Speaker 2 I was a maintenance person. So my job was to take in the stock.
You know, I'd get in at sort of six in the morning.

Speaker 2 The truck would arrive bringing all the fries and all the sausages, which were packed in Scunthorpe, as it happens. And the chicken came from Cambodia, which surprised me.

Speaker 2 You know, I'd get into the freezer, stock it all all up, and then I'd have to get out of the jet washer and go and clean my car park. You know, there's McFlurry's everywhere, and tomato ketchup.

Speaker 2 The McDonald's tomato ketchup, and when it solidifies, is like

Speaker 2 rock solid. Wow.
You have to freaking get like boiling hot water to get that stuff off the walls. So that's what I was doing.

Speaker 2 And there was just no sound of his ending. And I wasn't earning enough money to actually pay back all my friends.
And I guess it was a bit of a spiral. And then

Speaker 2 I have a very good friend, Harry Dry, who you may know.

Speaker 1 Of course.

Speaker 2 He is a genius and

Speaker 2 also a fiercely loyal, brilliant friend who tells it how it is. And

Speaker 2 one day I was with him and I was giving him all these ideas. Like, oh, yeah, I'm going to write this novel about this.
And, you know, I think I'm going to make a film. And he's like,

Speaker 2 all you're doing is telling me that you're going to do all these things, not doing anything. And he said this great line.
He said, what you lack is deadlines, not ideas. You lack deadlines, not ideas.

Speaker 2 And it was like maybe one of the most important things anybody said to me.

Speaker 2 And I had this, what I call my Mulan moment. Have you seen Mulan? The Disney film Mulan, not the most recent one.

Speaker 1 That's a long time ago. Yeah.
You might need to.

Speaker 2 But anyway, so there's this wonderful scene in the film where Mulan, her father gets called to war. He's very old, very sick.
He doesn't have any sons.

Speaker 2 And the eldest male member of the family has to go off to war. Mulan, she loves her father, doesn't want him to go off and die fighting.

Speaker 2 So she goes in his place, which obviously they don't want her to do, but she has to pretend to be a man.

Speaker 2 So there's this wonderful scene in the film where the synths kick in, it's the middle of the night, and she goes and gets out her father's armor, gets out his sword and she cuts off her hair.

Speaker 2 She cuts off her hair so she can ride off to war as a man. And I kind of had that moment.

Speaker 2 There was this one day when I thought, you know what, I'm just going to quit my job at McDonald's and going to just give everything I've got to getting to where I think I should be.

Speaker 2 And I took off my McDonald's beanie for the last time and my big yellow jacket. And it felt like that moment in Mulan.
It was like a point of no return. I did a few things.
I applied to film school.

Speaker 2 They rejected me. I applied to the army and went through the whole process.

Speaker 2 They actually offered me a place at Sandhurst, which I said no to, because by then something else had taken off, which was this Twitter account I made. My plan had been to make some money.

Speaker 2 How can you make some money? Well, by tutoring. Online tutoring is quite a good way to make money.
People sometimes pay like freaking £50 an hour for a good online tutor.

Speaker 2 And I thought, well, I'm going to tutor people not in maths or

Speaker 2 I'm talking about maths or law. I did law at university.
I don't want to tutor law. I thought I wanted to do cultural tutoring.
I thought some parents might want their kids to be more rounded.

Speaker 2 So I thought maybe they'll pay me to tutor their kids in poetry and architecture and art, which I've always loved, you know.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 I made this little website offering tutoring lessons. And then how do you get eyes on the website? I made a Twitter account.

Speaker 2 hoping to drive traffic towards this website so people would book in tutoring sessions that I could finally make some money. What did I call the Twitter account?

Speaker 2 Well, the cultural tutor, because that's what I thought I was. And I put this little statue of Plato as a profile picture.

Speaker 2 And within six weeks, it became pretty clear that no one wanted me to tutor them, but they did like what I was writing about. And after six weeks, I had 100,000 followers on Twitter as it was then.

Speaker 2 And kind of from there to here, it's been

Speaker 2 a dream. But what I did, I said, when I made the Twitter account, I was going to post a thread every single day for a month.
and just see where it gets me.

Speaker 2 Obviously, the first 10 threads, you don't get a single like.

Speaker 2 So I would stay up all night, like going on Twitter, searching for other people who'd posted about church windows, seeing who'd liked it, then message those people, say, hey, I saw you like this post about church windows.

Speaker 2 I've just written one too. You might be interested.
And sort of, you know, after a week, you're getting two likes on a post.

Speaker 1 Really bootstrapping your website.

Speaker 2 Oh, man. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I was obsessed. It was like, I had this clear-mindedness, which is a very rare thing in life.
It's very rare to be able to have that level of

Speaker 2 focus and determination.

Speaker 2 And what started out as a month ended up being two and a half years. So for two and a half years, I posted every single day online.

Speaker 1 What was the first day that you didn't post like?

Speaker 2 It was

Speaker 2 when I was writing my book. It was after I got the book deal.
And there was this one day when I thought, like, I have a choice today.

Speaker 2 I can either make this particular chapter of the book better or I can post on X. And at that point, I thought, you know what? It's very hard to let go of something like that.

Speaker 2 Like, it's really hard to let go of a ritual because that was my life. Like, I would just, I was upset.
Like, I would, you know, I said no to all my friends.

Speaker 2 If ever there's a, you know, friends going out, I said, no, I've got to ride on Twitter.

Speaker 2 Why the hell do you want to tweet instead of hanging out with your friends? I'm like, I remember sometimes I would go out and then get home at 5 a.m. and stay up till 8 a.m.

Speaker 2 Putting something out on Twitter. And eventually it got to a point where I was where I needed to be.
I had my dream, which was to have a book deal. And then that became the focus.

Speaker 2 And a key part of the story is Mr. David Pearl, who you know, of course, he saw I was going viral online.

Speaker 2 And he reached out to me and he just in this fantastically American way just said, let's get on FaceTime. And I said we went on FaceTime.

Speaker 2 He said, look, Sheana, I really like your work and I'm guessing you need to make some money from this.

Speaker 2 But rather than you monetizing your audience and trying to, you know, maybe sort of sub stack and then you turning your focus from the wider public to your audience, I'm going to support you.

Speaker 2 I'll be your patron. I'm going to pay you.
a living wage, a good wage. And all you have to do is write every single day.

Speaker 2 And thanks to David and his patronage of me, I was able to write every single day and then get to where I am now with like, you know, nearly 2 million followers or whatever, and a book deal and some other exciting projects on the way.

Speaker 2 So that's how it happened. And it kind of brings us back to where we started.

Speaker 2 I mean, maybe, I don't know if you want any sort of, if you have any comments on that or any reflections, it was one hell of a journey.

Speaker 2 But the post that went viral, the post that took me from, I'd sort of ground my way after five and a half weeks to 15,000 followers, which is pretty good.

Speaker 2 But then I did a couple of posts and they got like, you know, less than 100 likes and i was thinking maybe this is it i'm washed i don't know if you ever have i mean you've you've been you know you're an old hand now and anyone who works online will know the sort of the dread and anxiety that hangs on your back right because you live by those numbers and as soon as they dip even by half percent you're like this is it this is it my time you know my 50 minutes of fame is done and i was i was really mad really mad and i was staying with my mum at the time And I thought, you know, and I decided to write about something, which had always bothered me.

Speaker 2 This one, I used to moan to my friends about it all the the time, which was this thing we're talking about, because ever since I was a kid, I'd also be like, why is stuff so boring?

Speaker 2 Like, and I would look at older things and think, well, they're so pretty, so interesting. Why is modern stuff so boring? So I wrote about that online.

Speaker 2 I did bring a screenshot actually of this post to just kind of show the point.

Speaker 2 This was the post. It's called The Death, the the

Speaker 1 Danger and

Speaker 1 the Danger of Minimalist Design and the Death of Detail, a short thread. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So it got 440,000 likes.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that'll that'll build a 15K account. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 And it got me 90,000 followers overnight. And what's so funny about this,

Speaker 2 what's so funny about it, is so interesting. And look at the lead image.
It's just two bollards, right? It's like a typical old bollard. It's not even that interesting.

Speaker 2 But then it's a typical new bollard. And what it turned out is that people all over the world had been feeling exactly the same.

Speaker 2 way

Speaker 2 that things are boring and generic these days and that people are crying out for the world to be a more interesting, charming, and meaningful place.

Speaker 1 The quick aside, I've been drinking AG1 every morning for years.

Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

Speaker 1 Uh-huh.

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Speaker 1 That's drinkag1.com/slash modern wisdom. Dude, what a great story.
You know, I'd heard this from David's side, but it's really wonderful to hear it from you.

Speaker 1 It's really inspired me even hearing what David did with you.

Speaker 1 I've had a bunch of conversations with the

Speaker 1 people who look after my accounts. And in America, you can start a non-profit and do these things.

Speaker 1 It's a fucking nightmare because what I would love to do is start a kind of scholarship thing where maybe once every 12 months, I find somebody or maybe a small group of people who are in your position and liberate them

Speaker 1 to be able to go and do the thing. And it's so difficult.
It's so difficult to be able to do that because if they're an employee, then it means this.

Speaker 1 And if it's a non-profit, then you can't be the person that chooses because the opportunity for nepotism is obviously through the roof.

Speaker 1 It's basically a way for you to tax-free funnel money from your business to other people that you like.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, well, obviously I like them if I want to support them because I think they're good. But, oh, you're not allowed to like.

Speaker 1 so you can be the director, but then you need to have a symposium or a board of people and they would choose and you can't have in

Speaker 1 I just want to give someone I just want to

Speaker 1 enliven one or a few people that I think are making good work to go and do it. And it turns out to be really difficult.
So that's a work in progress.

Speaker 2 But I mean, you've got to, because honestly, like patronage is like a very old-fashioned way to make things happen.

Speaker 2 In the modern, sort of throughout the 20th century, you had establishments, you know, you had the publishers and the media broadcasting organizations. That's where you went to get stuff done.

Speaker 2 Now we have the online creator economy, as it's called. You become an influencer, you know, like us, I guess, you know, you get sponsorships or, you know, you have a sub-stack.

Speaker 2 The old-fashioned way is a guy who has some spare money finds people who are talented and gives them that money, right?

Speaker 2 And then that's how so many of the world's most famous and beloved works of art appeared, pretty much all of them.

Speaker 2 Like, you know, Michelangelo didn't paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel based on, you know,

Speaker 2 substack subscriptions. He didn't have a sponsor.
Pope Julius II said, Michelangelo, you're the best artist in Italy right now.

Speaker 2 I'm going to pay you 400,000 ducats, or whatever it was, to paint the ceiling of my chapel. And he did it.
Same as the Mona Lisa, right? The Mona Lisa, which is

Speaker 2 a pretty boring and overrated painting. But anyway, it was commissioned by a guy.

Speaker 2 Leonardo was back in...

Speaker 2 Florence after being in Milan for a while. And this guy, he just got married and was moving to a new house.
He said, Leonardo, I want you to paint a portrait of my wife. So here's a load of money.

Speaker 2 He painted a portrait of my wife. Like, this is how great art throughout history and many books as well and poems and stuff, that's how they appeared.

Speaker 2 Somebody with the funds directs it directly to the person who needs it and then it gets created. Patronage is an old-fashioned system, but I think maybe it has a future in our modern world.

Speaker 1 Tell me more about your opinion on the Mona Lisa.

Speaker 2 Well, look, I think, I mean, there's a few facts about it. First of all, here's a question: who is the Mona Lisa? What is she called?

Speaker 1 It's not after Mona Lisa.

Speaker 2 Well, no, her name is Lisa. But I think there's something interesting about the fact that

Speaker 2 the most famous painting in the world,

Speaker 2 in some sense,

Speaker 2 the woman with the most famous face in history, no one knows what she's called. Her name is Lisa Gerardini or Lisa del Giacondo once you got married.

Speaker 2 And also, the crazy thing is she never actually saw the painting finished. Leonardo was a famous procrastinator.
He would just freaking take forever to do anything.

Speaker 2 And he actually left Italy with the painting. He went off to live in France because the king of France uh asked him to come and work in high demand.
Yeah, he hired him and he took the painting.

Speaker 2 So the Lisa Gerardini never saw the finished portrait. Which is kind of crazy, I think.

Speaker 1 And also she died before it was done?

Speaker 2 No, no, sorry, no, he took it so so Leonardo took it took the portrait with him to to France

Speaker 2 before it was finished. And then he finished it in France and then gave it to the king of the King of France, Francis I, he was called.

Speaker 1 Anyway. Here's a painting of someone else's wife.

Speaker 2 Well, you know, yeah, I guess, I guess. But yeah, it's Leonardo.
So even then, the guy was a celebrity. Even then, like, his reputation now

Speaker 2 it hasn't changed at at all. People then worshiped the guy.
But I just think it's a shame that the most famous painting in the world

Speaker 2 is a relatively boring portrait. Why is it boring?

Speaker 2 Well, if you look at other paintings and the things that might get people interested in art, like you imagine, because I'm passionate about art, it's my lifeblood.

Speaker 2 But the way our culture works, if you want to get someone interested in art,

Speaker 2 and they kind of start looking into it, and they see that the most famous product of the entire history of art is just is like a woman smiling um it's i don't think it's gonna excite them particularly what do you wish was the replacement if you were to say hey the world is gifted i can hot swap the mona lisa for something else

Speaker 2 this would be a good front end of the funnel for people into art sure i think there's a few contenders yes some of which are already quite well known look it depends on the person because i think when someone's for example like like young when they're a teenager i think you need something a bit more brash and exciting if you look at the the paintings of a guy like john martin he was a 19th century english painter from county durham actually okay and um he painted these kind of crazy biblical catastrophic landscapes you know and there's lightning and there's thunder and there's like cities blowing up and there's gigantic waves and and it's epic you know it's it's like sort of watching Lord of the Rings, but in a single painting.

Speaker 2 Like that kind of thing is exciting. Also, you know, another painting which is very, very famous.
You know, The Garden of Earthly Delights by Hieronymus Bosch.

Speaker 2 that one is pretty famous um and i think paintings more like that are more likely to get people excited about art um a little bit more interesting yeah they yeah they're basically more because look i don't i don't hate the meron lisa and if you like it then you like it but i think people should be free to call it boring if they want this is another problem like the problem with art like it's in this space where people feel very intimidated you know that they feel ignorant yes i certainly do sure and then and then suddenly they feel like they're not allowed to say the meron lisa is boring because...

Speaker 1 It just feels unrefined. Like I don't get the joke that everybody else gets or I don't get the subtext.
I'm not sufficiently sophisticated.

Speaker 2 Exactly, exactly. Whereas my view is the only thing you need to get into art, you only need two things, your eyes and your heart.
That's all you need. And you've got to fall in love with it.

Speaker 2 And that's a lot of my work has been that, just trying to put art out there, not in the context of art, but in the context of just something that's not that different to cinematic.

Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. Or a nice freaking dairy tripe.
Yeah, man. Exactly.

Speaker 2 Anyway, so

Speaker 2 how did the Mona Lisa come up?

Speaker 1 You were explaining, I think you were going through a bunch of. Oh, it was Da Vinci, Michelangelo, he's laid on the ceiling.

Speaker 2 So this thing you're thinking of doing, man, like good luck with that. Good luck with that, because

Speaker 2 who knows what it might lead to.

Speaker 1 What else have you got by way of

Speaker 1 example? I'm excited for what comes up.

Speaker 2 I've got some really, some really good stuff there, man.

Speaker 1 Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, some deep cuts from the world of architecture and art.

Speaker 2 so the reason i brought these is again just to illustrate the points i'm making um i could say oh just google it but it's much easier if i show it myself here now

Speaker 2 a big part of my work online a big part of the book but not only the book and a big part of this documentary this short film which is being released tomorrow as we speak um made it with david prell congratulations thank you it's a 15-minute short film and we're treating it as a standalone piece and as a pilot for a future series series we want to make about art and architecture

Speaker 2 with

Speaker 2 and learning from art and architecture about life in the 21st century.

Speaker 2 It's called the modern world actually, because I think we can learn a lot about life now and how to improve it by looking at art and architecture and things like that in the past.

Speaker 2 And people are crying out for a sort of a high quality art documentary series.

Speaker 2 Anyway, now what I think is really important, my life's work in a way, is to establish, first of all, that there is a problem with the way the world looks today and the way we design it.

Speaker 2 And then secondly, this is the crucial part, to establish a consensus around this issue.

Speaker 2 A problem I ran into pretty early on, which I hadn't anticipated, is that as soon as I started writing about this, you know, this, this, like, just ballot, like people have very strong views about it.

Speaker 2 Most people are inclined to agree.

Speaker 2 And like the polls show very clearly, studies in polls show very clearly that people are dissatisfied with how things look and that they generally prefer traditional to modern architecture.

Speaker 2 But I found that as soon as I started writing about it, people have all these connotations based on whether they think they're left wing or right wing. There's this idea, for example,

Speaker 2 no, it's a big issue because people think if you're to criticize modernism, right, so like modern architecture, to criticize that must mean that you're somehow like a traditionalist, conservative, even a fascist.

Speaker 2 And also if you want to revive traditional architecture, you must therefore be a conservative or a fascist.

Speaker 2 And And then people also think if you defend modern architecture, the conservatives think you're like a radical socialist or a communist. And all of this

Speaker 2 is complete nonsense. It's just not true.
Now,

Speaker 2 so that's the second part. I want to demolish these misguided political associations around the issue and establish a consensus, which is why I've brought some little graphics.

Speaker 2 So the first thing I'll do is I just want, this should be quite good fun.

Speaker 2 I just want to show you these

Speaker 2 and ask you what you think they are.

Speaker 2 It's sort of

Speaker 2 sort of a trick question and I'm hoping you get it wrong.

Speaker 1 They look like

Speaker 1 towers, towers of castles in some ways.

Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. That's how they look.
These are water towers. These are 19th century water towers.
Wow.

Speaker 2 So all they do is, you know, and for people who don't know what a water tower is, like in a town or city, in order to have water pressure, you need to lift all the water up high to the pipe, right?

Speaker 2 So that's what these are.

Speaker 2 Unbelievably, these somehow are just bits of like the most boring infrastructure you can imagine water management infrastructure and yet they look like they're just they're so much fun right imagine northumbrian water created one of those

Speaker 2 exactly exactly and what's most interesting perhaps is that these have all been decommissioned now right because obviously you know we've got more advanced technologies and yet they still stand because people love them.

Speaker 2 They'll be converted variously into houses. Some of them are like gallery spaces or viewing platforms.

Speaker 2 And again, just like the drone pipes, it's crazy to think that in the past, people believed that even something as simple and ostensibly boring and functional as a water tower could make a town or city more interesting.

Speaker 2 But this isn't about past versus present, which is what people assume. All I'm interested in is improving the present by learning

Speaker 2 from the past.

Speaker 1 It's difficult to learn from the future.

Speaker 2 Indeed.

Speaker 2 Indeed.

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Speaker 2 Now,

Speaker 2 so the first to establish that there is, I mean, look at this. This is another screenshot of a tweet I did.
So, this is like, um, what you I can't read, what does it say?

Speaker 1 Uh, why are cities all around the world starting to look the same? You've got the USA, Japan, Russia, Colombia, Germany, Ethiopia, Brazil, Taiwan, Poland, Australia, Spain, China.

Speaker 1 These are high-rise high-rise

Speaker 1 skyscrapers.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 they just like it all looks the same, right? And

Speaker 1 what's so I did this. Glass, steel, vocal lines.

Speaker 2 And it's got like 174,000 likes. You know, so like people really care about this issue.
Like, people feel very, very strong. Like, the easiest way to get traction online

Speaker 2 is just to post two images, one of like a nice old thing, one of a crappy new thing, and everyone loves it because everyone feels it to be true.

Speaker 2 It cruises, it's like a global issue as well. So you're like with those water towers, with those drain pipes, the reason I wanted to show them to you is just to kind of give an example of two things.

Speaker 2 First of all, the fact that things have changed, that we don't design things how we used to.

Speaker 2 And secondly, to show that it's possible to make boring things, to make infrastructure interesting, meaningful, and charming.

Speaker 2 So that is the

Speaker 2 problem.

Speaker 2 Now

Speaker 2 at this point, people start getting very angry.

Speaker 2 And if I can sort of address the two sides

Speaker 2 one after the other, this is what I would say. So I think it's very important to defend modern architecture, right?

Speaker 2 It's not popular with the public, even though a certain sort of group of architects and planners love it. The general public do not like modern architecture.
Look at any study, any poll.

Speaker 2 Look where people go. Look at where tourists take photos, right? When tourists come to London, where do they want to go and take photos? In front of the pretty old buildings.

Speaker 2 Where do people want to go on holiday? They go to Paris. They go to Rome.
They go to Venice. They go to Kyoto.
They want to see beautiful old buildings, right? What the public want is very clear.

Speaker 2 That being said, I think it's very important to defend modern architecture. There's this idea, I think, maybe among conservatives

Speaker 2 and what you might call more right-wing or traditionalist people, which are all such unhelpful terms anyway.

Speaker 2 that modern architecture, these big sort of boring concrete tower blocks, skyscrapers, that they replaced these these baroque palaces and these charming cottages but the truth is that you know this this is the kind of this is the kind of thing they replaced this photo was taken in the netherlands in the 1930s okay this is a mud hut yeah it's a family of three two adults and an infant.

Speaker 1 I'm not doing this for the visually impaired. I'm doing it because some people are just listening.
Black and white photo of what looks like farmland, middle of a field, essentially.

Speaker 1 I think there's a wheel. Is that a wheel? wheel yeah it is on the top of the house

Speaker 1 yeah so it's very low it's basically the height of maybe even slightly lower than the height of people it's an a-frame sort of there seems to be a bigger bit at the back but i mean it's halfway between

Speaker 2 a mound of dirt and a tent made out of wood yeah right with a chimney would you want to live there no probably not now Most people throughout history were living in conditions not totally dissimilar to this.

Speaker 2 Like throughout most of history history until the last century, people were living in conditions of absolute squalor and material misery.

Speaker 2 And all these modern buildings, which are very easy to criticize aesthetically, they look pretty nice when you compare them to that sort of thing.

Speaker 2 Modern architecture, using concrete and steel and glass and plastic, building quickly and cheaply and efficiently, basically gave the world a roof over its head.

Speaker 2 It lifted humanity out of material squalor and into a world where they could have, you know,

Speaker 2 they weren't living in

Speaker 2 places like that, where you're warm and you're dry and there's no danger of imminent collapse. So it's really important, I think, that

Speaker 2 more conservative or traditionalist people recognize that modern architecture has actually been a blessing for humankind insofar as quality of life

Speaker 2 is concerned. I also think a lot of modernist buildings are very beautiful, but that's kind of a separate point.
I think they can be lovely.

Speaker 2 And I think, like, like, I like the Shard, you know, and I like the Gherkin. These buildings are so much fun.
And I wouldn't want to see a world where we didn't build those.

Speaker 2 They're definitely not boring, though. No, exactly.
They're not boring. Exactly.
That's also true.

Speaker 1 And the charming.

Speaker 2 And they're charming. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Meaningful.

Speaker 2 But here's the, the mean, what I love about these buildings is that, like, London has this fantastic practice of giving buildings nicknames, right?

Speaker 2 So the Gherkin, the Shard, the freaking walkie-talkie, the cheese grater. That, I think, is meaning emerging, basically, when we give them those names.

Speaker 2 You know, the Gherkin feels like part of London. You can't imagine London without the Gherkin now, even though 20 years ago, a lot of people didn't like it.

Speaker 2 So that's my sort of piece aimed at the traditionalists who are, I think, too overly critical of modern architecture.

Speaker 2 But now the problem is that maybe the slightly bigger problem is that as soon as you start talking about this issue,

Speaker 2 a lot of more progressive people, generally conservative, progressive, maybe socialist, left-leaning liberal people, think that to call for traditionalism is some kind of like retrogressive, conservative, fascistic worldview, which I think is clearly not the case.

Speaker 2 Like asking for the world to be more beautiful, especially the streets where ordinary people live and work. Like the rich can freaking afford whatever paintings they want.

Speaker 2 They can afford lovely houses. The people suffering most right now are ordinary people all over the world whose streets and homes and offices are literally making them depressed.
Like studies

Speaker 2 have shown, I mean, you don't even need studies to prove it, but

Speaker 2 I suppose it's helpful. Like we are more stressed, more anxious, less productive, less happy when we're in boring environments.
Like, why do prisons look the way they look?

Speaker 2 Like, why does solid confinement have nothing in it and harsh lighting? But there's this crazy situation where we literally design buildings these days in the same way that we design prisons.

Speaker 2 I mean, this is kind of sad to think about, but there's this game that some people play, which is, is it a prison or is it a school?

Speaker 2 And if you look at prisons and schools built in the UK over the last 50 or 60 years, and I show you a photo of each, you can't tell which is which they look pretty similar anyway and more to the point about why I think liberal people should embrace and progressive people should embrace this this some traditional architecture bunch of reasons one it's more sustainable like look at those water towers right you build something that's beautiful that people like you don't have to demolish it it lasts decades or hundreds of years which is way more sustainable than building things like we do now which are going to be demolished in 20 30 years um because they're crappy and no one likes them it's also more environmentally friendly traditional architecture is way more interested in using local materials.

Speaker 2 It's also more suited to the local climate. Like, why do all old houses or buildings in northern Europe have very steep roofs, steep gables? Because it snows, right?

Speaker 2 And you don't want snow to build up on the roof. Now we have flat roofs, so we spend a like a crap ton, you know, having to, you know, we have to clear it or we have to heat it so it melts.

Speaker 2 It's a mess. Anyway, so it's more environmentally sustainable.
And also, the final thing, I realize we're going on a bit, but this is so important.

Speaker 2 Like when you have beautiful stuff, like those beautiful hinges, you were talking about, you know, the beautiful latches in the doors.

Speaker 2 William Morris, the great, great William Morris, 19th century poet and designer and campaigner, also a massive communist and Marxist as well.

Speaker 2 The reason he loved beautiful medieval old-fashioned design is because he felt it made people's lives more interesting when they have to use stuff, but it also made people's lives better when they had to make stuff.

Speaker 2 Like right now, we're forcing people all around the world, on other sides of the world, to be fair, in other countries, paying them like crappy wages to make crappy, boring stuff.

Speaker 2 As soon as your job involves making something interesting and beautiful and you've got some creative say in it, like imagine if, you know, bricklayers in this country, you know, we just make them, we ask them to make plain brick walls.

Speaker 2 So that the Middle Ages, bricklayers, what they did, they would make patterns in the walls. You know,

Speaker 2 you can do wonderful things with bricks. They sound boring, but bricks can be so charming, so much fun.
And

Speaker 2 now, you know, we don't do that. But in a world where we embrace beautiful design, everyone benefits, the people who have to make stuff and the people who have to use stuff.

Speaker 2 Anyway, that is, I think, most of what

Speaker 2 is needed to be said. That I want to establish a consensus that the world can be so much more interesting, that we will all benefit from it, and that it's not a political issue.

Speaker 2 Anyway, I didn't get through all my I want to see more of your examples.

Speaker 1 Go

Speaker 2 to the presentation. Here's, here's, here's one.
So here are some. Here are some...

Speaker 2 Do you know what they are?

Speaker 1 Water fountains. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So there's a variety, sort of a green. The classic green's okay.
It's a little

Speaker 1 sterile and minimalist, but it's not bad. And then there's one that's sort of a real aqua blue and looks a little bit like a

Speaker 1 like a cartoon.

Speaker 2 Yeah. So these are some water fountains that have been installed around London in the past sort of 10 to 20 years and around the UK, actually.
And they're fine, they do their job.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 on the whole, I wouldn't say that they necessarily make the place where they are prettier or more interesting.

Speaker 2 Now here are some

Speaker 2 Victorian water fountains

Speaker 2 which

Speaker 1 they look like mini chapels.

Speaker 2 They do, yeah, they do. They do.

Speaker 2 They're beautiful.

Speaker 1 And they're really four-sided.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, that almost looks like a fountain fountain that you would go to. Yes,

Speaker 1 where ducks would swim. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 there's a few points on this, but I'll keep it relatively brief.

Speaker 2 And the main one to me is that when you see something like this, when this much care and thought has been put into designing water fountains, which are one of the most important kinds of public

Speaker 2 architecture you can have, right? Like water is... a sacred thing.

Speaker 2 It is the source of life. When you treat the public and treat water in this way,

Speaker 2 I think think everyone

Speaker 2 is much happier. And now

Speaker 2 the other slides, I can probably kind of speed through them.

Speaker 1 There's no speed through anything. We can indulge as much as you want.

Speaker 2 We can, we can, but there's just so much exciting stuff to talk about here. So this one is

Speaker 2 kind of fun. So you remember I showed you the screenshot of how all modern architecture looks the same, all these skyscrapers.

Speaker 2 Well, it turns out in the past, things weren't actually necessarily so different. Like is one of

Speaker 1 Ireland, Mexico, Greece, India, Russia, Cuba, USA, Philippines, Argentina, and these are all quite sort of baroque style pillars with the classics A frame Greece

Speaker 2 Greek what is that was

Speaker 2 pediment

Speaker 2 yeah and they all look the same basically all over the world and it's the same here difference being I think people don't mind when they think it's pretty no they they don't mind exactly.

Speaker 2 But I think it's important to recognize that we shouldn't romanticize the past.

Speaker 2 Even though I am prone to doing that, I think I've got better in recent years at being much more realistic about what things were like.

Speaker 2 But it's interesting, first of all, yeah, that people don't mind homogenous architecture when it's pretty, but also that things in the past were also, you know, it's not like there was necessarily more variety.

Speaker 2 And these ones are kind of more to the point. Again, it's just like freaking loads of buildings I look forward to.

Speaker 1 Wow, look at that. Sort of Gothic-style cathedrals.

Speaker 1 UK, Norway, Slovakia, Germany, Czechia.

Speaker 2 Oh, Czechia. I guess that's the Czech Republic.

Speaker 1 Czechia. Italy.
That one in Italy is insane.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's in Milan.

Speaker 1 Hungary, Portugal, and Belgium.

Speaker 2 Again, they're all very, very similar, right? Because they're all part of the same. And that was kind of...
And then, sorry, there is one more of these, which is now Byzantine-style architecture.

Speaker 1 Okay, so this is with domes.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 A little bit lighter color, a lot of white, some yellows in there as well um

Speaker 2 and again they all look very similar so i i kind of like making that point just because again perhaps um more some people who are more traditionally aligned tend to forget that there were phases in the past when buildings looked the same all around the world but then the equal point that you made straight away is that people don't mind architecture

Speaker 2 They don't mind when it's homogenous, if it's pretty. Then the final thing, it's a bit, came out a bit blurry, unfortunately.
But anyway, what do you think this building is?

Speaker 2 What do you think that is?

Speaker 1 I think it's a church. Sure.

Speaker 2 That's what anyone would think.

Speaker 1 Okay, you tell me it's

Speaker 1 showers or something? So

Speaker 2 this is a still from the documentary, actually.

Speaker 2 It's been my dream for years to visit this place and to film there. Where is it? So this is, it's called Cross Nest Pumping Station.
This is a sewage facility.

Speaker 2 When London's new sewers are built in the 19th century,

Speaker 2 they needed a pumping station

Speaker 2 a few miles, like about just 20 miles east, closer to the mouth of the Thames. And the Victorians thought this was how you should design a sewage facility.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and it's just absolutely gorgeous.

Speaker 2 And this, in a way, sums up the change. And I think we've lost.

Speaker 2 the belief, the conviction

Speaker 2 that even

Speaker 2 sewers

Speaker 2 can be beautiful, can be charming, interesting, meaningful. People work in sewers.

Speaker 1 What's the excuse other than convenience and cost? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Well, so this is, or I guess, really interesting. The cost point is frequently raised, that we can't afford to build like that or design like that anymore.
But this kind of isn't true.

Speaker 2 There are two things to say about it. First of all, one point, it is a bit more expensive.
but like anything is too expensive if you don't want it.

Speaker 2 And then the question is, is the extra investment worth making?

Speaker 2 Well, if it's going to cost 1% more, which is usually what it's like to decorate, like decoration is so much cheaper than every other part of a building, right?

Speaker 2 You just got to stick some pretty stuff on the front of it. Now, that's all cast iron.
It's mass manufactured. This isn't made by some artist slaving away.
for years.

Speaker 2 You literally melt the iron, stick it in a mold, pull it out, paint it a bit. Looks beautiful.
Like, is an extra percent worth an increase in human happiness and joy?

Speaker 2 Worth increasing, you know, the lifespan of the building will be expanded by, you know, decades.

Speaker 2 I dare say that that's a wise investment. And also, in purely speaking, purely commercially, think of what it does for tourism.
Like cities, especially like in Europe,

Speaker 2 you know, in Europe, people don't make stuff anymore, don't manufacture stuff.

Speaker 2 Where does all the money come from? It comes from tourism.

Speaker 2 Like you put up beautiful buildings and people from around the world will come flocking, spending all the hard-earned money just to spend one night in this one freaking pretty street in your city.

Speaker 2 So like it's one of the best investments you can make is in decoration.

Speaker 2 That's the one people usually raise as cost.

Speaker 2 It's kind of the biggest one. And it really is that simple.
I think there's also other things we could get into that probably aren't worth addressing

Speaker 2 right now. but it's to the point i want to make is that it is a choice we act like it isn't a choice and

Speaker 2 the problem with with that however is that we live in a consumerist society and again this is why i think traditionalists and liberals conservatives and progressives should be united the problem the biggest problem with modern design isn't any um

Speaker 2 isn't people who want to return to the past. It's not socialism.
It's not communism. The biggest problem is consumerism.
Like we live in a society where

Speaker 2 we have a culture of obsolescence. Nothing is built to last.
Because you can make more money, obviously, if you don't build things to last.

Speaker 2 Where the cheapest, most convenient, quickest route is the one that we always take with everything

Speaker 2 we do.

Speaker 2 Like everyone stands to benefit from that kind of meaningful, beautiful design, apart from

Speaker 2 if you're a property developer or a planner, whatever it is, and you want to spend as little money as possible and get back as much as possible in a short time span, you make it boring.

Speaker 2 You make it ugly. You don't care about how it looks.
That's the consumerism, I think, is the biggest problem.

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Speaker 1 Where do you think on the planet has got a good balance of

Speaker 1 beauty, of charm,

Speaker 1 meaning,

Speaker 1 interestingness.

Speaker 1 I imagine

Speaker 1 some

Speaker 1 unsophisticated idiot like me is immediately going to say Rome because it's so obvious and in my face. I went to Vienna for the first time.

Speaker 2 What do you make of it?

Speaker 1 Again,

Speaker 1 that kind of very

Speaker 1 I've just read my first philosophy book.com

Speaker 1 unnecessarily Baroque architecture thing for me is very it's easy to enjoy. I find it right I find the detail very pleasant.

Speaker 1 The fact that every street that you turn down is really wonderful. I thought that was lovely.
I really, really enjoyed Venice. I thought Venice was fantastic and

Speaker 1 small, quaint streets and higgledy-piggled-y

Speaker 1 buildings leaning, almost leaning up against each other and they're being supported by bits of wood and the wood supported by iron and the iron brackets are on the side of the house and nothing, no two streets look the same, and all of the pavements are cracked.

Speaker 1 And that was that felt quaint to me, which was charming. I think that would be very, very charming.

Speaker 1 Where else has got it right that I like?

Speaker 1 I'm a fan of Harrogate.

Speaker 1 Nice. I think Harrogate in the UK, Edinburgh.
Yeah, Edinburgh's phenomenal.

Speaker 2 Just, yeah,

Speaker 2 your spirits lift when you go to Edinburgh, you're excited. Every corner.

Speaker 1 But these are, maybe not for Americans, but these are

Speaker 1 maybe more obvious examples.

Speaker 2 No, but they're good examples, man.

Speaker 2 You made such a good point.

Speaker 2 When you said about Vienna, it's easy to enjoy. You know,

Speaker 2 I'm deep into this stuff and I don't like Baroque architecture.

Speaker 2 I'm much more of a Gothicist. I'm much further gothic.

Speaker 2 And I could sit here and talk for 12 hours about why that is. But it kind of doesn't matter what I think.
I just like it.

Speaker 1 I like it because I like it.

Speaker 2 It makes you smile.

Speaker 2 And you get out your phone, you start taking photos, you know? And

Speaker 2 that is what matters here so edinburgh rome vienna other cities in the world as well all over the world where else give it give us some uh maybe less obvious beautiful locations that people could that you wouldn't think of yeah

Speaker 2 so um i love uh sofia in bulgaria okay um that's got a wonderful mix it's got a mix of architecture which is why i like it because for a long time it was under the ottoman empire and the same is true all around bulgaria you've got a lot of ottoman era kind of turkish Turkish-influenced buildings.

Speaker 2 But then you've also got, after it was independent, you've got all these 19th century Neo-Byzantine, all big domed cathedrals.

Speaker 2 And then you've got Art Nouveau, all spiraling and flowery and pastel colours. And then the communists came and started building their massive brutalist monuments.
And I adore brutalism.

Speaker 2 And so you go to any city in the Balkans, really. And they've got this just amazing mix.

Speaker 2 Over 500 years, you've got several different chapters of world and cultural and architectural history crammed in on this on the same on the same street. And I love variety.
I think variety is key.

Speaker 2 Again,

Speaker 2 I'll say it once more. I wouldn't want to see a world where we just get rid of modernism in design.
Like, some modern buildings are just wonderful.

Speaker 2 We mentioned the Gherkin earlier, and I think the world benefits from variety. Look, it's a law of nature.
One of the big points I make is like, okay, but why? Why do human beings like variety?

Speaker 2 Why do we need variety? Why is decoration charming to us? Like, why is a door handle with a little spiral on it nicer than a door handle that's just a bar? Because it reflects nature.

Speaker 2 You go outside and look at a tree. John Constable, the painter, has this great line that no two leaves in the history of the universe have ever been identical.
And it's true. Look at a tree.

Speaker 2 Every single leaf is different. Every single tree is different.
Nature is constantly changing and it's varied and it's detailed.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 those principles of natural beauty, I think,

Speaker 2 which is the

Speaker 2 which is the environment that we were not raised in, that we evolved in, and that we've been in since the dawn of the human species, is the one we feel most at home in.

Speaker 1 And go ahead, go ahead. Yeah, I'm just

Speaker 1 totally get it that the

Speaker 1 straight lines don't necessarily appear in nature. So, trying to replicate

Speaker 1 some more complexity and some more uniqueness in design is a good idea. You mentioned brutalism there.
I can see how brutalism might not be boring.

Speaker 1 I would absolutely say it is not charming. So

Speaker 1 make the

Speaker 2 pro case for brutalist architecture. Yeah.
Oh, God.

Speaker 1 You might need to do a tiny briefer on what brutalist architecture is as well.

Speaker 2 Sure. So brutalism is a word that conjures a lot of images in people's heads.
Like it emerged after the Second World War in the late 50s, well, early 50s, and then kind of really took off in the 60s.

Speaker 2 in the West, and then it took off in the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc a little bit later in the 70s and and 80s.

Speaker 2 Now, when people say brutalism, they usually mean any building that is concrete and square. That's not what brutalism is.

Speaker 2 That's basically just, that's the most basic form of modernism, I suppose. Brutalism, properly told, is about these big, bold shapes.

Speaker 2 So, you know, you know the National Theatre or the South Bank Centre, just on the other side of Waterloo Bridge. Okay.
That's like a great example of brutalism.

Speaker 2 I probably should have, probably, should have added to my presentation. But what you've got is these great big cubes and pyramids and weird angles and big open spaces.
And it's all concrete.

Speaker 2 It's all unpainted, raw concrete, which is very honest. It's truthful.
That's the idea.

Speaker 2 Anyway, the reason I love brutalism is because it's bold and it's exciting and it presents a vision for the world. It's like brutalism.

Speaker 2 You look at all this old like fancy, pretty, detailed, delicate stuff. Brutalism is the opposite of that.
It is massive.

Speaker 2 It is pure geometry on a huge scale. Like the pyramids of ancient Giza or Stonehenge are kind of brutalist.
Like imagine those things but made of concrete. Suddenly they're brutalism.

Speaker 2 And that's what brutalism has this like ancient monument, monumentality to it.

Speaker 2 And I think that's way more, I agree it's not charming, but not every, not everything needs to be charming. Some things should be imposing or impressive.

Speaker 2 And I think brutalism is impressive, but what you said was so true. You said you don't think of it as boring.
Right? Because it's not boring.

Speaker 2 It's maybe ugly, but maybe ugliness is a good thing sometimes. But what did I say? The one thing we cannot bear is boredom.
Ugly is fine. Boring is not fine.

Speaker 2 And brutalism, I grant that some people find it ugly. And I wouldn't want a world of brutalism, but I think it's something inspired.
And to me, very optimistic. It emerged after the Second World War.

Speaker 2 You know, the whole world has been devastated by the greatest cataclysm

Speaker 2 in the history of civilization. And from the ashes emerges this new style of architecture.

Speaker 2 pick a brutalist building and look at a photo of it from when it was first built in the 50s or 60s, it looks so futuristic.

Speaker 2 And I can imagine people like, imagine you're surrounded by all these, like, you know, delicate Victorian buildings, or all the plaster is peeling, the iron is rusty, and then you see this like concrete spatial.

Speaker 2 It's like this is going to be a better, fairer, more prosperous world.

Speaker 1 Only in comparison with a much more delicate, yeah, um,

Speaker 1 uh, refined

Speaker 1 glass, steel, chrome building, yeah, Does this begin to actually look kind of

Speaker 2 raw and primal

Speaker 1 and threatening?

Speaker 2 Yeah, threatening is a good word. It can be pretty threatening.
And the problem now, which

Speaker 2 yeah, is that the world has been filled with so much boring design, plain squares and cubes, that brutalism has lost its charm because it worked by virtue of its contrast with that older environment.

Speaker 2 Now you have these brutalist buildings surrounded by just freaking glass boxes. It doesn't look that interesting, Right.

Speaker 1 You mentioned earlier on you're a hopeful romantic. I think I put myself in the same category, actually.

Speaker 1 How do you come to think about romance in the modern world? We've spoken about beauty, something that I think people

Speaker 1 wistful for, struggling to find, perhaps, interestingness. And where is it, this sort of increasing sterilization, as they feel, of

Speaker 1 the environments that they have to spend time in, whether inside or outside. How do you come to conceive of romance in the modern world?

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 you mentioned

Speaker 2 sterilization, a really, really good word. I think romance.

Speaker 2 Romance is the least convenient thing.

Speaker 1 You say the word romance twice, and things start falling out of the wall, and that's the way it works.

Speaker 2 That's how it should be. That's how it should be.

Speaker 2 We live, as I said, I think we're okay. If someone agrees, we live in a world of convenience and of hyper

Speaker 2 commercialized optimization. And in this world,

Speaker 2 in amongst it, romance screams out as the opposite. Like, I said it to a friend of mine.
I think I said it to David, actually. I said,

Speaker 2 we were talking, we were talking about dating and

Speaker 2 how he's getting on. And I said, look, man, it's not love if it's convenient.
Like, love is anything apart from convenient. Like, when you're in love and when you're taken by these passions, right?

Speaker 2 You stop doing the things you should be doing. You think, well, I've got to work today, but I just, I just want to be with this person.
You stay up all night. No, you arrive at work.
You're tired.

Speaker 2 You're sleepless. That is not

Speaker 2 convenient. And it's not beneficial to a world where your focus would be

Speaker 2 on kind of optimizing according to those material conditions. And yet it's worth it.

Speaker 2 You know, and I think that's how I think of romance and why we're struggling to find it because it runs contrary to all the instincts that are being

Speaker 2 taught to us by the world like

Speaker 2 I don't think you can schedule romance you know and I think online dating culture

Speaker 2 it it it's transformed the way maybe we think about love into something that that that fits into a broader scheme of of a scheduled and organized life.

Speaker 2 And I think it narrows the scope of possibility for passion to sweep you away, you know?

Speaker 2 And that is why I,

Speaker 2 yeah, that's why I think of romance. Does that answer the question or not?

Speaker 1 To a degree, it does. I think

Speaker 1 the inconvenience makes an awful lot of sense.

Speaker 1 You know, to go from your slightly more artistic, whimsical approach to my

Speaker 1 remote area of expertise of evolutionary psychology and mating dynamics.

Speaker 1 Humans have two attachment systems. We have the passionate and the companionate.
And the passionate is

Speaker 1 highly irrational. It's the honeymoon phase.
It's obsession, a lot of anxiety. It's very painful.
Anyways, it's very beautiful. It's the rush, it's the spark.

Speaker 1 You're unable to focus on anything. It wouldn't make for a particularly good society.
It certainly wouldn't really even make for a particularly good family life. There's a lot of articles online.

Speaker 1 You can go and find this couple kept their honeymoon phase going for 20 years and here's how you can do it too.

Speaker 1 And there's a bit of me that thinks, oh, that sounds nice in some ways because there's the rush and there's the novelty and there's the uncertainty and oh, isn't it exciting?

Speaker 1 I would not want to be the child of parents who at 10 year, I'm 10 years old or five years old and they're still in the honeymoon phase.

Speaker 1 I don't think that your executive functioning, that's why you stay up late. right? You should go to bed.
You should go to bed. It's a good idea to go to bed.

Speaker 1 Something I imagine you tell yourself all the time, knowing your sleeping pattern.

Speaker 1 So, and then you move into companionate love. Companionate love is friendship.
It's categorized much less by sort of this obsession, but a deeper kind of connection. It's closer to friendship,

Speaker 1 but with the romantic interest in there, too. And

Speaker 1 I think

Speaker 1 we,

Speaker 1 I don't know how much of a place there is in the modern world for romance, certainly not

Speaker 1 given some of the challenges of roles that men and women have to try and contend with now, that women can be their own provider

Speaker 1 and that men don't need to be the provider at all, especially if the woman is.

Speaker 1 Neither need to be pro-creator.

Speaker 1 which would have been very novel ancestrally.

Speaker 1 You know, if you have two people that are together in a relationship and there's no child that's come out of it, it's pretty likely that we're probably going to part ways.

Speaker 1 I don't know whether the fertility issue is me or whether it's you, but if we both split up, then there's a 50% chance that this might work with somebody else. Maybe it is you.

Speaker 1 Or maybe it's me and it'll be another whiff. But

Speaker 1 I wonder, given these sort of changing modalities, in order for you to be romanced, in order for you to apply the, and this is a Joe Folly idea. I've fucking become obsessed with this idea.

Speaker 1 It's so good. I've spoken about it twice today already.

Speaker 1 Joe makes this great point that the modern world is defined in many ways, categorized by ironic speech.

Speaker 2 Yes. Yes.
Man, hell yeah.

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Earnestness. Beautiful word.

Speaker 1 The courage to take your emotions seriously, right? Sincerity. You're planting a position in the ground that you truly believe in.
Okay, this is me. Here I am.
This is what I want.

Speaker 1 This is what I believe in.

Speaker 1 As opposed to this is what I don't agree with or I don't believe in or I I don't want. Anybody can define themselves.
There are far more things in the world that we don't want than we do want.

Speaker 1 Oh, hell yeah. And it doesn't define who we are to say what we don't want.

Speaker 1 But it also means that you don't risk the fear of rejection. You can't be rejected for not liking something.

Speaker 1 You can in some ways, but it doesn't feel existential. You can be rejected for saying, I like this thing.
Or that feels like a comment on yourself.

Speaker 1 We were saying earlier on, your ability to speak versus your ability to play the piano.

Speaker 1 That feels like a real, that's, you know, close to the core of who you are as a person. Oh, I really showed you a bit of myself.
I showed you a bit of myself.

Speaker 1 I opened up, I cracked my heart open, and there it is. Here's a thing that I like.
Sometimes that's a person, and sometimes it's how you feel about a person.

Speaker 1 And for that to be rejected, it's painful. So I think a culture of ironic speech,

Speaker 2 of

Speaker 1 sardonic, distanced, second and third-order aloofness

Speaker 1 is a prophylactic against being hurt, but

Speaker 1 results in romance, which by definition is sincere and earnest. The courage to take your emotions seriously.

Speaker 1 It doesn't leave much room for that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, every word. That was very eloquently and beautifully put.
And yeah,

Speaker 2 in response to all of that, two things. First of all, yeah, I agree with what you're saying.
When the word romance, I think, can mean a couple of things.

Speaker 2 And I certainly don't believe that pure romance is enough for a sustainable relationship and a long-lasting

Speaker 2 incompatibility. That being said, I think the romantic life is when you can, like, there's two sides to it.
The romance is like the sweeping passion.

Speaker 2 You stay up all night, you leave your job, you run down the street with no shoes on, you go to the whatever the hell it is. I don't know.

Speaker 2 But I think romance can also be a way of life and a way of understanding the world. And what that way is, is exactly what you said.
This ability to express those sincere, earnest feelings. And

Speaker 2 the possibility of doing that is less available to us than ever. We all have, every human has this deep well of passion and love and light inside them.

Speaker 2 And I think the modern world, in many ways, is wonderful. And even modern dating culture does a lot of things right.
But that particular part of us, we can't get it out there.

Speaker 2 And I wanted to read you a few lines from, it's the obvious place to go to, but from Romeo and Juliet. It sounds like the obvious play to choose.

Speaker 2 And I don't want to get into what the play necessarily means and how it's been misunderstood. But it is, in many parts, a wonderful evocation of how to express oneself so far as love is concerned.
So

Speaker 2 here's a little scene.

Speaker 2 Romeo and Juliet are speaking from the balcony scene. Romeo says, oh, wilt thou leave me so unsatisfied? Juliet, what satisfaction canst thou have tonight?

Speaker 2 Romeo, the exchange of thy love's faithful vow for mine. Juliet, I gave thee mine before thou didst request it, and yet I would it were to give again.

Speaker 2 Romeo, wouldst thou withdraw it? For what purpose, love? And then Juliet says, But to be frank, and give it thee again. And yet I wish but for the thing I have.

Speaker 2 My bounty is as boundless as the sea, my love as deep. The more I give to thee, the more I have, for both are infinite.

Speaker 2 Now,

Speaker 2 that's a kind of expression

Speaker 2 which we

Speaker 2 doesn't really dovetail with this age of irony.

Speaker 2 And I think it would be...

Speaker 1 If she'd said all of that and then put lol at the end,

Speaker 1 it would have hit. slightly less

Speaker 2 indeed yeah indeed i think we would be wrong to assume that

Speaker 2 all expressions of love are equal. And the language is obviously very old-fashioned.
I'm not saying we should all start talking like that again.

Speaker 2 But those lines are as powerful and sincere, and they're also not generic, right? It's not just, oh, roses are red, violets are blue kind of thing. That is like a really profound thought.

Speaker 2 She's providing it in explaining her, like at this point in the play, she's like way ahead of Romeo in terms of emotional maturity. Like he's freaking playing catch up there.

Speaker 2 He does catch up by the end of the play, but at this point, he's just a guy who's he thinks she's very good looking and he'd like to kiss her, let's say.

Speaker 2 Um, I think he's still in that stage, but Julia, Juliet at that stage, his play is already well beyond that into the realms of actual, enduring,

Speaker 2 life-affirming, spirit-expanding love, which is what I think when I say romance, I think that's why it's so important because it allows us to access that side of it.

Speaker 2 Like, romance and love are good for your freaking soul, you know, they make the world brighter and being able to talk, not in those words precisely, but to express one's.

Speaker 1 The sentiment, the sentiment that I've loved you since before you knew it.

Speaker 1 And I love you so much that I'd withdraw it just so I could have the pleasure of giving it to you again.

Speaker 1 And it's boundless and reciprocal and circular. And

Speaker 1 regardless of how you say it, it's sort of cosmic and it's bigger than you and it's real.

Speaker 1 And for that, for you to say something like that to somebody, for you to give them that much of yourself, which is actually giving you more than them, right? You're giving more than yourself,

Speaker 1 which is what love feels like. Love feels, you know,

Speaker 1 greater. For instance,

Speaker 1 one of the wildest things that I've done

Speaker 1 when

Speaker 1 flying into London, uh, I had a big day scheduled, I had all of this stuff planned, and and uh I decided I was going to torpedo these plans.

Speaker 1 Um, land in London, by the time I've landed in London at Heathrow, I've got an Uber book to go to Gatwick. I go an hour, Uber, to Gatwick,

Speaker 1 completely annihilate all of the plans I had for the day.

Speaker 1 Trip to the dentist, hairdresser, two dinners that had been organized, meetings, all the rest of the stuff.

Speaker 1 Go to Gatwick, fly to Edinburgh to meet a girl, to meet the goal the girl and yeah and then i spend 20 hours in edinburgh to then fly back to gatwick to then go and do the thing and destroyed the start of the week

Speaker 1 awful horrible idea

Speaker 2 romance edinburgh's a great city as well to be walking around hand in hand down as little early very much so yeah that exactly yeah that's a beautiful story and it's um

Speaker 2 actually yeah i was so into that story i've completely lost yeah

Speaker 1 romeo and Juliet, earnestness.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Well, I was going to say something absolutely life-changing, but I can't recall what it is. But I think there is

Speaker 2 this touches on a broader point. And the poetry stuff might seem like

Speaker 2 it's kind of a trick or a gimmick. And, you know, but it really isn't.
And I'm not saying that

Speaker 2 at 6 a.m. in the morning, you wake up.
And,

Speaker 2 you know, I wake up and I make my girlfriend breakfast every morning before work. You know, she starts work at 7.
I'll wake up at 6.

Speaker 2 If you can believe it, I do sometimes get up before you.

Speaker 1 You've been texting me at 8 a.m.

Speaker 1 awake as opposed to going to bed.

Speaker 2 Yeah, for the first time in a long time, I am now.

Speaker 1 You were nocturnal for a while.

Speaker 2 I wasn't, yeah, I was, I was fully nocturnal. The whole thing.

Speaker 1 Your diet was largely red wine and cigarettes.

Speaker 2 Not red wine, actually. I didn't drink.
I can't work drunk. I don't think you can work drunk.
That's Alex, isn't it? That's Alex's thing. Yeah, I do not.

Speaker 2 But it was one meal a day, far too many cigarettes.

Speaker 1 I think I asked you one day what your plan for the evening was. And you said, I'm just going to smoke and walk around.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.
That's that's

Speaker 2 romance. That's

Speaker 2 it. It's

Speaker 2 actually a bloody good way to live. Not the smoking.
It's bad for you. It's good fun, but it's bad for you.
And then you shouldn't do it.

Speaker 2 But the walking around part, doing nothing in particular, is so much good for you.

Speaker 2 But I will probably get back to that, although on this point, I'm not saying we should be giving these kind of speeches to our loved ones, you know, at six in the morning, just woken up, faces a bit shiny and soft, or whatever it is.

Speaker 2 But there is a place for it. And I think, to speak practically, like how, like, why

Speaker 2 this age of irony, why do we struggle so much with romance, you know, this particular side of love, modern love,

Speaker 2 I think, and this is a broader issue, it comes down to education. And when I say that, I don't mean what you're learning in school.
I mean the kinds of media and content you're consuming. Like

Speaker 2 what you watch and what you read and listen to shapes you even more than what you eat shapes your body, right? Yeah. Like, you know, this is the kind of thing you talk about all the time.

Speaker 1 Yeah, just as a really lovely

Speaker 1 hold the point.

Speaker 2 Don't worry. I'm not going to lose myself in your

Speaker 1 lovely little.

Speaker 1 Someone put this in the comments forever ago,

Speaker 1 which was,

Speaker 1 your body is made up of everything that you put into your mouth and your mind is made up of everything you put into your eyes and ears. Prioritize appropriately.
And I think, how lovely.

Speaker 1 And you want a mental diet that is spirulina for the soul, not fast food for the amygdala.

Speaker 2 I'm not sure what three of those words meant, but I think I probably.

Speaker 1 You had spirulina at some point. I'm sure they put it in cigarettes.
I think that the new menthol

Speaker 1 cigarettes that you've been smoking has probably got spirulina.

Speaker 2 I don't have menthol.

Speaker 2 But I don't smoke anymore anyway. So that's solved.

Speaker 1 No, that's because your girlfriend's listening, that's what you've said.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Anyway,

Speaker 2 the point I was going to make was. Yes, that's also a frit, like beautiful way to put it.
Prioritize appropriately. I love that.

Speaker 2 And in the same way that I think our souls and our minds and our hearts are better when the things we consume with our eyes are charming and interesting versus boring.

Speaker 2 It occurred to me a little while ago, it sounds obvious, but I think, you know, I sort of, if I have a talent for anything, it's realizing that obvious things are true. Um,

Speaker 2 and one thing I realized, I was speaking at an event about the manosphere. I was telling you about it, this weird event about the manosphere where nobody was on the side of the manosphere, yeah.

Speaker 2 I said, put your hands up if you're in the manosphere, no one. Put your hands up if you know anyone who's in the manosphere, no one.

Speaker 1 So it just, it was a bit of an we're not even two degrees of separation from a manosphere, exactly.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but it was a good event, well-meaning. I just, it was just the really weird thing about it.
But anyway,

Speaker 2 at that event, and one thing I realized as suddenly as I was talking,

Speaker 2 like one thing that we've done really well in the past decade, you know, you've been a big part of this as well, is like, I think a lot of parts of our lives are better now because we're focusing so much more on the kind of habits we have and

Speaker 2 relates to the things we eat or the way we, even the way we schedule and journal stuff.

Speaker 2 The past 10, 15 year boom in self-optimization has been like a blessing for human well-being. I think primarily in a material sense.

Speaker 2 And maybe what we're lacking is the equivalent boom in an

Speaker 2 what I would call an artistic or cultural or emotional or spiritual.

Speaker 1 I was trying to work out what the word was. Yeah,

Speaker 2 I need to find a word that I will then use forevermore, but it's something along those lines. Yeah.
And I realized, I was like, what is,

Speaker 2 look at all these people. Imagine everyone's there.
They're eating well and they've got all the habits. They're living great lives in a lot of ways.

Speaker 2 But what is the best piece of art they've ever been exposed to? What is the best show they've watched? What is the best film they've watched?

Speaker 1 What is the best book they've read?

Speaker 2 What is the best poem they've read?

Speaker 2 And like these days, notwithstanding the freaking infinite spew of Instagram reels, many of which are very funny, of course, but anyway, notwithstanding that spew, which has obviously negative effects for how we think and feel.

Speaker 2 And like, I don't, we don't need to go into that. But

Speaker 2 the other, because we always focus on the bad stuff. Like people are spending too much time on Instagram and reels, YouTube reels, da-da-da, brain rot.

Speaker 2 But we never look at the other side, which is, okay, what is the best stuff we're putting into our brains and minds?

Speaker 2 And in the past 10, 15 years, I was looking at these people all about my age, and I'm thinking, maybe

Speaker 2 the greatest piece of art they've ever

Speaker 2 witnessed and

Speaker 2 seen is Game of Thrones or White Lotus. Okay.

Speaker 2 And like,

Speaker 2 I've not watched them. I know they're very popular and

Speaker 2 they're obviously well made and

Speaker 2 they're clearly extremely good. Otherwise, it wouldn't be that popular.
But I suspect across the scope of human history that

Speaker 2 they're not, I think there are other forms of art by which I mean poetry, films, books, paintings, music, which access and exhibit an even higher, profounder, deeper, broader, and ultimately more meaningful side of humanity.

Speaker 2 And the great value of art is that it lets you into those secrets. It lets you see the world in a new way.
Like, what is the point of looking at a painting or reading a poem or reading a book?

Speaker 2 Okay, maybe you want to be entertained, but more than being entertained, it changes you.

Speaker 2 It either reveals things about the world that you you didn't know or reveals things about yourself that you didn't know. And like the difference between a whole life spent watching nothing but

Speaker 2 sitcoms and one where you watch sitcoms half the time, but the other half of the time you deal with slightly more challenging, more complicated, more difficult, but profounder forms of art.

Speaker 2 I think that second case, that person, is going to be happier. It's going to be more at peace.
And this is why I think poetry is so important, the bit I read from Romeo and Juliet.

Speaker 2 I think the world stands to benefit from, when I say education, this is what I mean, like a more enriching cultural, a more culturally enriched environment where people do the hard work of like reading difficult books, reading these great poems, looking at these great paintings, listening to this great music.

Speaker 2 It's not just for fun and it's not just to show off. Like this whole thing about being cultured can so quickly become like, oh, well, you know,

Speaker 2 I'm the cultural tutor. Like, oh,

Speaker 2 you're in a Beethoven's Third Symphony. Well, you're a, you know, know, the troubler-like.

Speaker 1 Look at how refined that is.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that is not what it's about. And some people think it is.
They couldn't be more wrong. Like, those people are idiots.

Speaker 2 What it's about is what it does to you in the same way that eating a freaking

Speaker 2 Big Mac or a spirulina

Speaker 2 ball, which one is better for you? Same thing. And I think we need more poetry for that reason.
And there is another poem I wanted to read. Bring it on.

Speaker 1 I'm ready. This is Sheehan Quirk's Poetry Hour.
So this, I. That isn't a dog-eared

Speaker 1 copy of...

Speaker 2 It's called Verse and Prose in Peace and War by William Noel Hodgson. Now, William Noel Hodgson, he

Speaker 2 was a soldier in the First World War. He actually went to school in County Durham.
Anyway, and he wrote poetry while he was in the trenches and he sent it back to England.

Speaker 2 And there's one particular poem which was published on the 29th of June 1916, which I wanted to read. I think you'll like it.

Speaker 2 Let me just take a

Speaker 1 prepare yourself.

Speaker 2 This is William Noel Hodgson writing on the 29th of June, 1916. It's called Before Action.

Speaker 2 So this is him in the trenches before

Speaker 2 he wrote this, you know, just before he went off to fight.

Speaker 2 By all the glories of the day and the cool evening's benizen, by that last sunset touch that lay upon the hills when day was done, by beauty lavishly outpoured, and blessings carelessly received, by all the days that I have lived, make me a soldier, Lord.

Speaker 2 By all of all man's hopes and fears, and all the wonders poets sing, the laughter of unclouded years, and every sad and lovely thing, by the romantic ages stored with high endeavour that was his,

Speaker 2 by all his mad catastrophes, make me a man, O Lord.

Speaker 2 And I, that on my familiar hill, saw with uncomprehending eyes a hundred of thy sunsets spill their fresh and sanguine sacrifice, ere the sun swings his noonday sword, must say goodbye to all of this.

Speaker 2 By all delights that I shall miss, help me to die, O Lord.

Speaker 2 Two days later, William Noel Hodgson died in the Battle of the Somme.

Speaker 2 So it's a very powerful thing to read. Regardless of the fact that he obviously wrote this poem and had those thoughts in his mind before he went off to die in war, it is

Speaker 2 nonetheless, I think,

Speaker 2 you know, you struggle to find a more impactful poem, one that expresses a more shocking worldview in a way.

Speaker 2 I mean, you imagine a soldier in the First World War in the trenches, in those miserable conditions, far worse than anything we could possibly imagine.

Speaker 2 Far from home,

Speaker 2 in this war, unlike anything seen before, with mustard gas and tanks

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 in the mud and the gangrene and the rats, and just, it's just, it's just awful.

Speaker 2 But he has the wherewithal, the composure, the sort of spiritual depth to look within himself for this darkest of moments and write a poem which, you know, make me a man, oh Lord, make me a soldier, Lord.

Speaker 2 Help me to die, oh Lord. It's just,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 almost beyond words. Now, why do I read it?

Speaker 2 Well, because I think someone

Speaker 2 is better off.

Speaker 2 I think

Speaker 2 people these days in the modern world will gain immensely

Speaker 2 their health,

Speaker 2 their emotional,

Speaker 2 not much of their emotional texture, their spiritual well-being. It can only benefit from being exposed, for want of a better word, to that sort of thing versus...

Speaker 2 You know, I'm not punching down when I say versus Game of Thrones or White Lotus, but my point is there's more than that. And I think in art, we can find it.

Speaker 2 And that's just one example of one poem written by one guy.

Speaker 2 And I wonder if these days, if people found the time and effort to dedicate 5% less time to those other forms of media and more to this kind of thing, it would do us all so much good.

Speaker 1 So I think the problem that I've always had, and I told you this before we started, the problem I've always had with poetry is I find it

Speaker 1 somewhat inaccessible.

Speaker 1 I don't know whether I'm supposed to, how I'm supposed to like it, what I'm supposed to take from it. The holes that the unspoken words that are the vacuum that allow you to suck yourself in are

Speaker 1 you spoon-fed Game of Thrones.

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 1 two or three times something is repeated to remind you of exactly who this person is. And, you know, the bad guy is disfigured and the hero has broad shoulders.
And, you know,

Speaker 1 there is a

Speaker 1 difficulty setting on poetry. And I mentioned to you that I'd read some Tim Burton, The Melancholy Death of Oyster Boy, which is really great and fun.

Speaker 1 But it's fun

Speaker 1 not because of its depth. It's fun because of its wit.
And wit has a kind of depth to it, but it's immediately apparent what's going on. Another one

Speaker 1 about poor little mummy boy. boy, and it's a

Speaker 1 Pharaoh's curse that causes this woman to give birth to a

Speaker 1 bundle of gauze. And then a dog comes over one day and sort of pulls him apart.
And then there's some Mexican kids at a birthday party and they mistake him for a pinata and they beat him to death.

Speaker 1 It's really Tim Burton. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 It doesn't have the

Speaker 1 spiritual or emotional or explanatory depth depth of a guy that is waiting at the battle of the salt.

Speaker 1 But yeah, I think I get it. I get that there is more to be gleaned and it gives you the opportunity to reflect on yourself and what this means in life.
And, oh, isn't that interesting wordplay?

Speaker 1 Or to think about, you know,

Speaker 1 a boy bobbing in the middle of the ocean,

Speaker 1 going nowhere, but being on a journey or something like that, right? Like it allows you to suck yourself into the story.

Speaker 1 The The difference between reading a book and watching a movie of the same, even of the same book, right?

Speaker 1 But the inaccessibility that at least I find, and I'm not, maybe I'm a little bit ashamed. I feel like I should be more sophisticated, should be more refined, capable.

Speaker 1 The insecure overachiever inside of me wants to win at being able to understand poetry.

Speaker 1 But the advantage that you have of something like Game of Thrones or White Lotus or whatever is that the barrier to entry is essentially the flaw.

Speaker 1 Very few people will struggle to understand what it's about.

Speaker 1 There are certain movies, Severance, for example, might be a good example of something that's a little bit more, or if you've ever seen,

Speaker 1 oh, fuck, not Looper, there's this time travel movie.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, it's called.

Speaker 1 Where they have the box.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I've not seen it, but I know exactly what it is. It's like a famous indie, 2004.
Suck.

Speaker 1 Primer.

Speaker 2 Primer. Priam.

Speaker 1 Brian. A little bit more difficult to follow.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Tenet from Chris Vernola.

Speaker 2 I love it. Tenet so underrated.
Tenet's so underrated.

Speaker 1 But people, why did people not like it? Unnecessarily complex. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Memento.

Speaker 1 Also unnecessarily complex.

Speaker 2 Okay, yeah, sure.

Speaker 1 Somewhat, just again, the barrier to entry to get into this is a little bit higher. So yeah, you're right.

Speaker 1 For the right people. Yeah.
Okay. Okay.
Something deeper is better, but the breadth is not there.

Speaker 2 So I'm excited now. I'm excited now.
So yeah, get in. Well, okay, so three things to say to all that, like really well, but maybe I end up being four.

Speaker 2 First of all, like Tim Burton, his poem, that's a great place to start. You've got to, like, that's fantastic.
Like, begin there and see where it takes you.

Speaker 2 Second thing is, yes, it can, again, poetry like art is dogged by the problem of...

Speaker 2 connotations that is this refined sophisticated like teacups and wigs like oh well i you know i i i can name every single one of shakespeare's plays like that's crap that that's stupid and irrelevant and just pointless the only reason this has any value is not because it makes you more sophisticated or refined in that sense.

Speaker 2 It's because in this stuff is contained the wisdom and the profoundest thoughts that humankind in a long civilizational history has come up with. Like that's why these books survive.

Speaker 2 And obviously it does generate this kind of cultural gap and people use it as a shibboleth, you know, which

Speaker 2 my work is fighting against that. So I want to throw that all out the window and present this stuff and I want people to look at it on its own terms.
Now, it is more difficult, right?

Speaker 2 Some of it isn't necessarily difficult. A lot of poetry is crap and pointless and you shouldn't read it.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 a lot of things in life are difficult and there is a barrier to entry. Look, like I don't go to the gym

Speaker 2 and maybe I should.

Speaker 2 In fact, I almost certainly believe I should, but I've not done that. And it's quite scary.
Like, just walk in like this. Like, you might walk in the gym and start.

Speaker 1 I assume. You You and Alex could wear your suit jacket.

Speaker 2 Yes, I assume I should get changed. But I don't even know how to.

Speaker 1 I would love to turn you into a bro. I would absolutely love the opportunity to bro up She and Kwo.

Speaker 2 But look, well, let's do a swap. You can start reading poetry and you can put on a.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'll get you to do chest and back with me.

Speaker 2 Sure, but this, but this is what about this. We're joking.
This is what I want. I want a synthesis.
I don't want to take us back to the middle ages.

Speaker 2 What I want is for the modern world, modern people as they are, to have this extra life

Speaker 2 infused the system. But yeah, the gym, like, I don't know how to set up gym equipment.

Speaker 2 Like, to me, that barrier is the same barrier as when I sit down and I read poetry. It doesn't immediately make sense to me.

Speaker 2 Well, sure, but like the only way to do anything, there are two ways to get into stuff. You either just freaking do it and learn it on your own or you have someone to help you.

Speaker 2 And I would like to think something I can do in my book. There's a whole chapter of the book, which is a, is, is trying to convince people to write a poem.

Speaker 2 You know, it begins with the line, I think you should write a poem, and here's why.

Speaker 2 I'd like to think my work can be to try and help people engage with this stuff without all those stupid connotations for what it is and for what it's worth and show that it has real value.

Speaker 2 Like we need this stuff more than ever in the 21st century. And then also just get into it.
Like you've got to be fearless, you've got to be brave. Like you could,

Speaker 2 people,

Speaker 2 it can be a bit elitist, a bit frightening. Like you read Shakespeare and then you think, oh, well, like, this is what I think it's about.
But like all these critics are saying it's not.

Speaker 1 But what what I think it's about is wrong.

Speaker 2 Yeah, well, here's the truth. What you think it's about is absolutely correct.
Like, this is my view. The same with art.
Like, look at that painting.

Speaker 2 You tell me what you think of it, what it means to you. And then maybe your view will change.
Maybe I'll try and change your mind. But that view is completely legitimate.

Speaker 2 It's no less legitimate than the view of

Speaker 2 whoever.

Speaker 1 Do you know Andrew Doyle? Do you know who he is?

Speaker 1 Name rings. Titania McGrath on Twitter.

Speaker 1 He is the creator, or he was the writer behind.

Speaker 2 No, I think I know.

Speaker 1 For a long time. He's been on GB News.
He was on on the show a couple of weeks ago he's living in arizona now and um

Speaker 1 he i didn't realize his

Speaker 1 master's or maybe his

Speaker 1 maybe his phd maybe he's got a mighty doctorate in this um was in shakespeare wow and uh he was telling me these stories about him i didn't know much about shakespeare law and um

Speaker 1 He was giving me all of this really interesting stuff. I didn't know that he said that Shakespeare basically made no commentary on his own plays.
There isn't much by way of this is what this means.

Speaker 1 So as you said, well, this is what I think this means, but this is what the experts say it means. He goes, well, I mean, that's fine, but nobody knows what Shakespeare thought it meant.

Speaker 1 Maybe there are some small.

Speaker 1 I think there were a lot of acknowledgements. uh that he had in some of the the the scripts but there was no there wasn't much in the margins.

Speaker 1 Uh, he wasn't writing about his own experience, he was a commoner because plays at the time were the uh entertainment of common folk.

Speaker 1 Um, so I'm like,

Speaker 1 I'm fucking chewing your stuff,

Speaker 1 it was really cool, exactly, right?

Speaker 2 When you present it in that way, it's kind of like, oh, wow, this is like nothing's like, it's not like whatever, Game of Thrones is the same thing as Elizabeth as Macbeth, you know, it's just the same thing, and yeah, tearing away that veil is

Speaker 2 so important.

Speaker 2 God, I was about to say something. How did you, that last spiel you gave about Andrew Doyle,

Speaker 2 where did that begin?

Speaker 1 You had said, it doesn't matter what you think this thing is about. It doesn't matter what the experts are.

Speaker 2 That was it.

Speaker 2 David Lynch, who's just so funny.

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 1 he has this great, he's famous.

Speaker 2 He doesn't like talking about his films. Yes, because people are like, so David, what does this thing mean? He's like, well, look, I made the thing.
Watch it. You tell me what you think.

Speaker 2 It doesn't matter what I think. It's made.
It exists now in the world. And all that matters is what you make of it.

Speaker 1 Isn't that interesting? sorry for interrupting you again isn't it interesting that the the creator of the thing

Speaker 1 is allowed to tell you what the thing means

Speaker 1 that would be like the parents of a child being able to define what the meaning of their life is

Speaker 1 yeah i guess as opposed to the child itself you go i've created this thing

Speaker 1 And it's now in the interaction of that thing and the world that it, maybe that's a shiny analogy. I don't know.
But

Speaker 1 it's interesting that people look, I think, this is one of the reasons that

Speaker 1 we do that is because we abhor uncertainty so much that we would rather collapse all of the different potential

Speaker 1 reasons for something's existence down

Speaker 1 into one,

Speaker 1 even if the one feels constricting instead of enabling.

Speaker 2 I can't work out.

Speaker 1 Is it a love story? Is it a tragedy? Is it a comedy?

Speaker 1 Is it a comment?

Speaker 1 Is it a comment on class?

Speaker 1 Is Julie Cecil?

Speaker 1 What does he mean by... I just want to know, because sitting in the uncertainty

Speaker 1 is uncomfortable. We would rather snap that down.

Speaker 2 Yeah, hell yeah.

Speaker 2 I couldn't agree more. And I think the artist's perspective is just a part of the picture.
But yeah, it's like if I said, Chris, I got you this lovely gift today.

Speaker 2 I got this nice table that you can put in your, in, in, in your, in your, in your front room. You You say, well, Sheena, that's a mug.
It's not a table. I say, well, I think it's a table.

Speaker 2 Like, well, yeah, similar thing, basically. Like, whatever you think it is, that's what matters.
You think it's a cup, users' a cup. You think it's a freaking hat, users' hat.
I don't care.

Speaker 2 That's the beauty of art, that it just lifts you up and engages you. And there is one final thing I want to say about poetry, why I think it's also so important in the modern world.

Speaker 2 Along with everything else I said about the wisdom that it teaches us and

Speaker 2 and what it allows us to access in ourselves.

Speaker 2 It's also run like a lot of the problems that we find these days with the internet and social media addiction, poetry, one reason it's so difficult is because it's the exact opposite.

Speaker 2 Like rather than seeing 30 or 40 reels in a minute, you have to kind of sit on your own in silence for maybe a couple of minutes while you read it and then think about what it think about it.

Speaker 2 Some of you're alone and like all this world disappears and all our instincts to reach for something, to scroll, to flick, to look for an explanation, to ask about it, to comment, like you're just left alone with this, with this poem.

Speaker 2 And that sort of little bit of contemplative, reflective experience, again, is like just a little bit of texture that can help to

Speaker 2 lift the ailing human spirit of the modern world.

Speaker 2 I think it's good training, basically.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 1 it's the same way as going to the gym and lifting a weight where there's no weight on it.

Speaker 2 Wow, okay.

Speaker 1 Right? The progressive overload is injecting some of your effort into what it is that you do, putting some of yourself into this thing, asking yourself, what does this mean?

Speaker 1 It's an opportunity to reflect.

Speaker 1 You know, I certainly wrote my first poetry this year and I really enjoyed it. It was a real challenge to allow myself to be more whimsical.

Speaker 1 This is certainly something else that doing this, the show, the live show that I'm doing, has allowed me to do. Because when you're on stage, people kind of forgive a bit more whimsy.

Speaker 1 You know, if you're in a normal story, I guess if you're telling stories as well, I learned this from friends that are great storytellers, Mr. Ballin, who has this huge YouTube channel.

Speaker 1 And even when he's just just telling a normal story, Keegan Allen, another friend of mine, is just

Speaker 1 about a drive somewhere. And there's so much unnecessary detail in there about, you know, where the sun was at, how hot it was, or what he was wearing, or

Speaker 1 the coffee that he'd had earlier that day. And you realize that all of the unnecessary detail fleshes the story out in the ways that you care about most.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's the point of it.

Speaker 2 In the end, that is almost the point of the story. It's like in life, all the most valuable things about life are the least necessary in a way.

Speaker 2 But no, but I remember with your show last year, you came out on stage and I was thinking, okay, here we go, Chris. He's going to freaking nail me to the canvas and sort me out.

Speaker 2 And then you started telling jokes.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Just doing what you want, I suppose.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 1 Romance, anything else to say on modern romance?

Speaker 2 I think most of

Speaker 2 what I care deeply about has been.

Speaker 2 Has been, maybe not quite as clearly as I would have liked, but

Speaker 2 I think in terms of my main gripes, it's

Speaker 2 just give me one,

Speaker 2 maybe more than one second, of course. Like five seconds.

Speaker 2 Yeah, without getting to. I have a bunch more, slightly narrower thoughts, but I don't think there's a need to get into them.
Well, one is just about the willingness to die.

Speaker 2 You know, I think, I think.

Speaker 1 It's a part of romance, the willingness to die.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think.

Speaker 2 Harold Bloom has this great line where he says,

Speaker 2 the erotic is where

Speaker 2 sex and death overlap,

Speaker 2 which is kind of an interesting thought. And that reason I bring up that sally weird quote is because

Speaker 2 the willingness to die

Speaker 2 is an interesting phenomenon. And I think love

Speaker 2 in its highest and purest form, romance love, that's what.

Speaker 2 They are. It's got to be a complete

Speaker 2 you've got to cast off your stake in worldly matters in order to give yourself to someone completely, right? But to give yourself some completely, you've got to give everything up.

Speaker 2 That's the kind of death. Yeah, there's how people talk about religious duration, but then the weird thing is, I think, I wonder in the modern world, like,

Speaker 2 okay, well, here's a question for you, man. Is there anything that you, what would you be willing to die for?

Speaker 1 Oh, that's interesting.

Speaker 2 Like, would you die for

Speaker 2 me?

Speaker 2 Would you die for your country?

Speaker 2 Would you die for

Speaker 2 your parents?

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 wrapped up in that is love,

Speaker 1 right? Is wrapped up in that is romance.

Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. And it also touches on this, again, broader thing, I think, and a weird, interesting thing about the modern world is, I wonder what people are willing to die for.

Speaker 2 And it's kind of a morbid thing to ask yourself. But I think if you want to know who you are, if you want to get to grips with your life, you've got to ask,

Speaker 2 what would I be willing to lay down my life for? And I'm not saying people in the past had this sorted. They didn't.

Speaker 2 But it's certainly the case that at one time or another, certain groups of people did. And in many ways, the people we admire most in our films.
And that's right.

Speaker 2 Like, why people find medieval knights so interesting

Speaker 2 or samurai? Yeah, yeah. Many reasons.
One of them is the fact that what they do is life or death. And

Speaker 2 the same with many of the many of the great Romans, you know, what's one of the things that's so impressive and weird and fascinating about them and

Speaker 2 so compelling is the fact that they are willing to stake their life on a belief, on a conviction, on a kind of

Speaker 2 love. And, you know,

Speaker 2 it's

Speaker 2 Albert Camus, you know, famously said that the meaning of life is whatever's stopping you from killing yourself. You know, it's a very, very witty line.

Speaker 2 And true, my personal version is, you know, the meaning of life is whatever you're willing to die for. The meaning of your life is whatever you'd be willing to give up that life for.

Speaker 2 And if there's one question people should maybe ask, you know, I don't know.

Speaker 2 uh whether this is the time that you know often interviews end with what's your one piece of advice um i have i usually have a few ones that i give but the the one that's on my mind right now is one piece of advice ask yourself what would you be willing to die for and a lot of other stuff will fall into place

Speaker 2 which is your favorite of the 49 lessons not the best the last one not the most absurd the last one can you grab your sure grab your it's actually not the last one i i said that to to be uh to be uh well maybe it is the last one so this is my book You want a photo taken by the lovely Alexander Griffin in the back.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he's...

Speaker 1 He wants more credit. I think he's got a lot of credit, but he just wants more.
I'm very selfish in that way. I wonder if he's here.

Speaker 2 Is he here?

Speaker 1 Is he? Good. Yeah, tell me selfish.
Thank you.

Speaker 2 Maybe it is the last one you don't.

Speaker 2 So is anyone to talk about it? Are you going to read it?

Speaker 1 No, just yeah, just give me a little explainer of it. Hi, Alex.
You're selfish.

Speaker 2 In terms of what's most relevant or useful here,

Speaker 2 I'm not saying it's just because it's at the end to convince people to read the whole book.

Speaker 2 But the second to last chapter is is called the last library on earth

Speaker 2 and in it i kind of pose the question there this theorical theoretical situation which is like imagine in the far future um there's been global catastrophe earth is being evacuated and there's this spaceship and um

Speaker 2 you're this librarian and you're like okay we need to leave earth there's only room for 10 books like which 10 books would you bring the only books that survive from all of human history and my personal answer is that that they shouldn't bring bring any books.

Speaker 2 But anyway,

Speaker 2 the reason I bring up this

Speaker 2 point is because

Speaker 2 this touches on themes we've been mentioning. There's something like 150 million books in the world.

Speaker 2 150 million, not total like physical books, but 150 million different books you could read. Like even if you read like a thousand books a year, you wouldn't read more than like 0.007%,

Speaker 2 which is kind of scary. It brings you face to face with your mortality as soon as you realize that you literally, you can read anything, but you can't read everything.
Which means you've got to pick.

Speaker 2 And a lot of my work is just about trying to encourage people to pick much more judiciously and imaginatively the very few things they'll be able to consume in their life.

Speaker 2 You know, I don't think people should read my book, to be honest. I think there are thousands of books they should read instead of this one.
The problem is,

Speaker 2 there are thousands of other crappy books being published every single year.

Speaker 2 And if people reading my book come away with one lesson, it's that I don't need to read anything published in the last 50 years.

Speaker 2 Like everything I need to know about life has probably already been written and written better and has already been written.

Speaker 1 What's a way to make someone regret their purchase at the end of the book?

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 2 And but like, what is the best filter for quality in all of that?

Speaker 2 It's time, right? Time. If something is not good, it will not last.
Lindy effect.

Speaker 2 Indeed. So like an Amazon bestseller list, all it tells you is what's popular in any given week.
Even book awards, they tell you what's been popular in any given year.

Speaker 2 But the past 10,000 years of human history, that tells you what people across all ages in all corners of the earth, all backgrounds, all creeds, all religions, all situations, what all of those people, or at least, you know, a lot of them, thought was most useful, most interesting, most meaningful.

Speaker 2 Like, we have a list of these books. You can go and read them.

Speaker 2 And I'm saying not to only do that. Like, I'm not saying you shouldn't read, you know, Dame Jilly Cooper, who died today.
God rest her soul. You know, Jilly Cooper.

Speaker 2 She wrote these, you know, she wrote all these books, these sort of racy novels about horse riding and football and stuff.

Speaker 2 A real legend, Dame Jilly Cooper. You should read about her.
Anyway, like, I'm not saying you shouldn't read her books ever, but

Speaker 2 the kind of the earn it, the burning message of this book is like, it's all waiting for you. Like all this stuff, which will just completely transform the way you think about yourself and the world.

Speaker 2 And like, is, you know, for me, the whole experience of learning about culture, quote unquote

Speaker 2 um which i really got into about five years ago i just i i kind of managed to cast off all these preconceived notions of what i should or shouldn't think and just got into art and architecture and poetry and it was like the world went from being in black and white to in full color

Speaker 2 and i think yeah to summarize that is what

Speaker 2 these days uh that's what not all we're lacking and a lot of the stuff we're doing is good but it is one of the things that that people are missing is joy Like the words romance and adventure and death, like these are such nobility, nobleness.

Speaker 2 You know, in our age of irony, it's very hard to say these words, but that doesn't mean that these things aren't real.

Speaker 2 And like if you got every single book printed in 2025 and asked how many times the words adventure and romance and nobility came up, it would be like, you know, no one talked about these things.

Speaker 2 And my job, if anything, is to inject that back into people's lives. And

Speaker 2 this is the place to begin, begin, but it's not the place to end. This is not the place to end.
This is not where you get everything. This is intended as a prime and this is where you begin.

Speaker 2 It's like, hey, I've just discovered this whole new

Speaker 2 solar system, and I want to tell you about it. Please, please, come and look at this.
It'll be better, I promise, than some of the things you're doing currently.

Speaker 1 Shin Cook, ladies and gentlemen, dude, I think you're great. I really love the work that you're doing.
Where should people go?

Speaker 1 They want to keep up to date with everything that's happening and check out

Speaker 2 on X at the Cultural Tutor. I also do have an Instagram page now, which is...

Speaker 1 Do you really? Yeah, this is you on Instagram. It's fascinating.
It's going to be like seeing, I don't know, your dad do an MMA fight or something.

Speaker 2 It's been pretty fun. Uploading stories, you know.
Take a picture of something and say, oh, look at this.

Speaker 2 X, Instagram, I have a newsletter, which is called The Areopagus. You can subscribe on Substack.

Speaker 2 Find me at the Cultural Tutor on Substack. And along with the book, there's also this fantastic documentary, which I hope people will.

Speaker 1 Where will that be uploaded to?

Speaker 2 It'll be on YouTube on X.

Speaker 1 Whose channel? The Cultural Tutor YouTube channel?

Speaker 2 Yeah. David's one.
We're going to release it on a brand new channel, which is

Speaker 2 exciting. I'm not sure if this is a venture into being a YouTuber, but it's more, it's the home of the channel.
And I'm sure we can. Join us.
I'm sure we can. What did they say?

Speaker 2 We can link it in the description.

Speaker 1 Join us, Shin.

Speaker 1 Dude, thank you so much. It's been a long time coming.
I can't wait for the next one.

Speaker 2 Mr. Williamson.

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