#901 - Tom Segura - Why Does The Modern World Make No Sense?

what is going on with the health and fitness stuff it seems like i looked at some photos

of you from 10 years ago and you're like half the size yeah yeah i don't know i just you know you just get tired of everything so you go i'm just gonna i'd like to be around and feel better so you just you know it's it's like it's a it's a it's an always happening thing it's i don't feel like it's a thing that you just address once and you're done with it. It's something that you are just thinking about, I think, all the time.
You know what I mean? Is this sort of gone are the days where you can fully live out the degenerate smoking, create a lifestyle? I did that. I already did it.
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, it's, you know you're really in it there's a there's a kind of a freedom to being like i'm a fucking gross sack of shit and you just don't care and you just eat in bed and smoke and i mean i might i used to go to bed every like at three in the morning almost every day and I would sleep until I don't know, noon. But that was normal.
I did that for years. And there's like a freedom in being like, yeah, I don't care.
I don't give a shit. But I do think it has.
Well, it literally does have an expiration date. I don't think it does.
Like you will die quicker if you do it that way so i think you kind of just go like i actually don't feel physically feel so great after a while i think in your head too like you psychologically are just kind of like uh there's there's another way of doing this um that because part of you kind of i was one somebody who like i would admire those comedians that were kind of a mess so you you know what i mean like you go like i need to be like this it doesn't feel so contrived right oh this is their purest artistic expression look they're on stage being themselves they're a sack of shit being themselves yeah and and i thought that was like that's kind of like the way that's when i started i was like i leaned it more. I remember like one of my friends came to one of my early shows once and he was like, Hey man, that, that t-shirt has a hole in it.
And I was like, I know. And he was like, you want to wear that on stage? Like people are watching you.
Don't you think they want to see like somebody that's presentable? And I was like, no, no, like this is, this is, this is the presentation. there's like that you have holes in your shirt and i kind of was like i was sure of it i was like yeah i mean that's the whole thing i'm i'm i wasn't i didn't feel like i was pulling on an act i was like yeah this is what i would wear around the house in a way uh making effort is sort of detracting from you being you yeah yeah but i do think that it's

look it's all part of like this is why i hate telling uh young comedians like how to how to do it like you know when they go give them advice i'm like i really don't like giving advice to young other than do it a lot like that's the advice but as far as like don't do this I go that's not how to

do it like the way to do it is to

do things you think you're supposed to do and then you figure out how to actually do whether or not you're supposed to do them yeah if i tell you don't do make sure you don't do this that might keep you from encountering something that actually really sparks something in you you know what i mean well there's a difference between 2d lessons that you learn from someone telling you what you're reading it in a book and 3d lessons that you learn from experiencing it firsthand a thousand percent yeah yeah there's a guy called bill perkins who lives here in austin he came on the show he wrote this book called die with zero which is about how to sort of make the most of your wealth. And it's written for people who struggle to spend money,

even though they might earn a little bit more than they need to.

And they're, you know, sort of skin thrift

and they don't spend the money so much.

I don't know where you have no idea what I'm talking about.

And I read the book.

And then immediately after that, from the podcast,

he said, oh, why don't you come and wakesurf with me?

And I got to learn the lesson,

both from the book and then from the podcast.

And then I got to experience it with him firsthand.

And there's a driver outside and there's a boat

and there's a blah, blah.

And it's like,

Thank you. wake surf with me and i got to learn the lesson both from the book and then from the podcast and then i get to experience it yeah with him firsthand and there's a driver outside and there's a boat and there's a blah blah and it's like huh yeah now i know what he's talking about and it's the same with this you can tell someone hey you maybe consider yourself a professional be presentable consider your health go to bed on time etc yeah but if you arrive at that realization yourself it's way deeper it's supposed to being like yeah i mean tom, but maybe he's full of shit.
I don't know. Yeah.
And honestly, also to make it like on the money thing, like one thing that nobody ever wants to hear is like money won't make you feel fulfilled. Like no one wants to hear that shit.
And then when you actually earn it and you and then you go like, oh, yeah, this is what people were talking about. Like the lesson is lesson is not gonna someone's saying it's not going to affect you the way that actually experiencing it well there's a category a very unique category of lessons i call them unteachable lessons yeah and that's one of them oh for sure another one is uh you're not in love with that girl she's just pretty and difficult to get uh-huh and it's how many times do you need to learn that over and over again? Yeah.
So people never learn it. Yeah.
And just continue to chase the slightly unavailable, pretty hot girl. Yeah.
And you go, dude, it's, it's, you're doing it again. And then when you get there, you're going to be like, this is different this time.
And then you'll be like, oh yeah, this is not. No, no, no.
It's not. And money won't make you happy is another one of those.
It's just, it's just, I know it's to, and I understand it too, because so many people hear that and they go, yeah, give me that problem. Yeah.
Give me that problem. Because you're thinking of like your current money problems.
And what happens is yes, that money will solve those problems, but it's not going to solve all of you. Yeah.
It's not going to make you. A much deeper problem, which is inside of you.
Exactly. You're not going to be like, now everything is satisfied.
You're just not going to have those bills. That's it.
It's a difficult one with this, right? Because what you want to do, especially if you've hard won a lesson, you want to try and help other people. Do you know how much I went through to get to this place of fame or status or fucking the hot chick or whatever? Realize the blood and the sweat and the tears and the sleepless nights and all of that stuff.
Please, please let me save you from the same sort of misguided assumption about life. And yet it's received, not even mutually, it's like negatively received.
Oh, with tons of resistance. But I think that that's, it just goes to show you that is part of the human experience like you can't teach some of these lessons it's also why these cliche expressions exist and you're like that sound like the reason that thing is said that way is because it's true and because millions of people have already experienced it that's why we're saying that thing.
But again, no one wants

to hear it. And I actually don't, I, the older you get, the more you realize that it makes sense

that you need to experience it in order to actually, you know what I mean? Like in order

to act and to have it resonate with you. Well, the total addressable market for people who want

more fame or more hot chicks or more money is basically everybody. And the total addressable market for people who have got some amount of fame or money or hot chicks is basically zero.
So you end up with this sort of weird privileged position. It's like, no, no, no, if I had that, it would be different.
Watch me dance through this minefield. I know that you kicked a couple of tripwires, but you're retarded.
So watch me. Watch me do the pirouette through here like and it'll my internal voids will be fixed because i'm unique yeah yeah and then you the other thing you just realize also as you get older is that like you're so not unique you really aren't like all the shit that you all your insecurities all the problems you encounter all the things that you think about that you think only you're thinking about, man, that's everybody.
Like it's, you really are in this thing with 8 billion other people and all the things that you think are unique to you. They're really not.
Yeah. And the veils fall from your eyes.
Uh, on the weight loss thing, I saw a study that said 37% of Gen Z plan on skipping the gym and just using a Zenempic instead so 30 of gen z women are intending

to use glp1 drugs to reach their weight loss goals compared to 20 of men and on average women are setting more ambitious weight loss targets aiming to shed 23 pounds in 2025 and men are looking to he's 19 huh well i mean part of that is probably that those women have like a a tougher time in

like part of that is probably that those women have like a tougher time in like society with what they think they need to look like i mean you know even though it affects both genders but yeah i i think that's a temporary solution to this i mean they're and they're gonna end up The real problem, if you read some studies about those GLP-1s, is that people lose muscle mass and they're losing at a much higher rate than they think they are. Sometimes they're losing 66% in a 10 pound loss, they're losing 66% of that is lean mass, which is not what you want.
Like the one thing you want for health

and longevity and strength and all that is to retain lean mass. So doing it the slower way with like good nutrition and good workout plan is what you want.
I mean, but also, are you surprised? Like we're, everybody wants a quicker solution to something. So yeah, I think we're going to have a bunch of people with gaunt faces and uh and and lacking muscle uh over the next decade is going to be a new issue tell you what's been interesting so i've trained it on it maybe once a week something like that yeah and for the last three months four months tuesday morning i've seen alex jones in there doing bear crawls he's outside.
He's flipping tires over. He's doing this stuff.
Alex Jones? Yeah. And then I saw the, I hadn't, I don't know whether I hadn't seen him up close or something.
And then I saw this famous like Ozempic Jones before and after thing. And he's lost a ton of weight.
And there's a bit of me, a lot of people on the internet were like, Ozempic's a hell of a drug and i go i get that but i've seen him working really really hard in a gym and uh there's kind of now if you lose weight through hard work people are just going to say dude a zempic's a hell of a drug i know yeah i might as well use as like some weird russian roulette unden situation? The same reason I think why there's all these guys, especially stars, who the one thing they won't talk about is that they're all juicing, you know? It's like this universal thing in Hollywood. And everyone sees there, if you see a photo or a video, everyone, the comments are all like, yeah, it must be nice with this needle.
And it's like, yeah, dude, if you just injected that, you're not going to look like him. Like that guy's still busts his ass training to be just beyond Jack.
Right. Like, so, but it's like, in other words, people don't want to, they think that these things are just a quick solution.
You still have to at it whether you're going for the the juice head that wants to be like super jacked or the person who's just trying to lose weight if you're just going to do the injection nothing else you're going to have less than him appropriately yeah exactly your results are not going to be impressive but i mean that's great that he's dude he looks great i mean you're right on the 66 thing i think almost all of that can be mitigated if you just do resistance training yeah if you lose the weight and you train but the problem is that people who don't have a health and fitness routine yeah are taking an injection and suppressing their appetite and then losing weight and still not having a health and fitness routine i mean the thing that i learned was that I, when I saw a nutritionist can really, really change the way you view a lot of things when it comes to weight loss.

And so my journey, I would say, is like, it's always ongoing.

It's up and down, right?

Even like in the last couple of years, like it's not steady state.

And like midsummer, I knew i had this series coming up um to shoot and i was like okay i go i'm at the time i was about 100 days out and i was like you know i can just show up as i am and and it's it's fine it's gonna be fine no one's like you know tom needs to be a model for this thing but i was like i'm going to hate myself for not at least putting in an effort and so i had considered like just uh doing glp ones have you ever tried them uh i did try it once yes how do you feel i just didn't eat anything and then i got off of it i didn't like that um so i considered it for this

just for the shoot though and i met a nutritionist and he i told him what i was doing at that moment which is in the midsummer and i go um so i'm thinking about you know maybe just doing he's like what are you what are you doing right now and i told him what i was eating and how i was training. He's like, you're not eating enough.
So if you get on GLP-1s, you're definitely not going to eat enough.

so the thing that i ended up doing was eating way more but of the right foods and i dialed up the training and i lost you know in this period going from the from the hundred days out through

the shoot like around 20 and I dialed up the training and I lost, you know, in this period going from the,

from the hundred days out through the shoot, like around 20 pounds, but looked way better, probably a little bit of lean mass as well. And, and it was, but it, and also the thing that was like surprising was that it was, it was more like I was eating so much more.
I mean, every day I I would start the day with four eggs, some fruit.

A little while later I usually train in that period. And then, uh, like a 50 gram protein shake lunch was 10 to 12 ounces of lean meat with greens.
Um, another, uh, snack in between. And then my dinners were, ounces of lean protein with greens.
Right. So it's like, I was like, I wasn't eating like this two months ago.
I was having like, you know, a chicken sandwich and be like, that was good protein. You know, it's like, it's so much like my protein intake must have been like, I don't know.
I was probably having like 40 grams a day, not even thinking about it, versus every day then trying to get in 200 plus grams. Yeah, exactly.
But nobody sleepwalks into 200 grams of protein. Nobody does it.
No. It's impossible.
It's deliberate. The only way that you get there is by accident is if you've gone to some buffet and you've just decided to like cave on the Brazilian fucking whatever it's called, fog fogger de chow um but it does work is like my point for like people who are like they're like i need to eat i'm hungry it's like dude eat this and tell me that you're like still starving yeah it's just not the case on the ozempic point uh i think was it the golden globes that happened recently what was the award show that happened recently? Such an awesome take from someone that writes for the free press.
And they said, Ozempic and the body condition of most of the people at the Golden Globes shows that the fat acceptance movement was all a scam. I fucking...
So fucking true. I hate the fat acceptance.
The moment that you had an easy route out of being overweight, body positivity went out of the window. That's so true because they're such hypocrites.
They're such pieces of shit. And this whole thing has always enraged me more than anything.
I think, I think because of the fact that I've struggled with it and I had to deal with the fact that I hated the way I felt or looked or, you know, you hate that your genetics are the way they are, whatever it is. But I also I also think part of it is just being a guy and that like guys talk to each other differently.
Like, you know, I played sports and you just get used to someone being like, OK, fat ass. And you're just like, fuck you.
You know, that's just like the way dudes talk to each other. And this whole idea that like one of my friends is going to be like, I actually think you look really good at any weight.
It's like, fuck off. Like, that's not true.
And that's what people started to do. Like, I remember this one post where it was like Adele and they showed her like at her heaviest and then she'd lost a a bunch of weight I don't know how she lost the weight but she lost a bunch of weight I think she looked pretty olympic I think it was too and she looked great and it was just filled everything was just filled with I think she looks great in both and it's like no don't why are you saying that that's not true like what she looks great now she put in the work and she obviously ate obviously ate a certain way and trained, and now she looks great.
You can say that, yeah, she wasn't ugly before, but no, both are wonderful. It's like this is just nonsense.
It's weird with what people are doing, especially with the fat acceptance, body positivity thing. You don't want to fucking lambast or castigate or be mean to people that are overweight and that are trying.
No. But also removing any sort of judgment on what is better or worse for you, just that's bad for them.
But yeah, there's this idea from Isaiah Berlin called the inner citadel. And it's basically, if you can't get what you want, you have to teach yourself to want what you can get.
So you sort of retreat into this. So I struggle to make monogamous relationships work.
Therefore, monogamy is a flawed system and everyone should be polyamorous. I struggle to lose weight naturally.
Therefore, weight has no bearing on health and the entire world needs to accept me at any size and I need to be beautiful no matter what. I struggle to hold down a job i'm turning to a life of crime and actually this is like just as acceptable as a normal yeah it's it's it's all it's it's completely disingenuous and it's all about a lack of accountability and i think that's the thing about like when you talk about body positivity it's like yeah you don't need to rip people apart who are not um you know, that are overweight or whatever.
It's like, I don't know. I don't think that's very productive for them.
It's just going to very few people are passive aggressive, patronized into. Yeah, for sure.
But to say like, this is great. And, you know, and then now people are also doing the same mental gymnastics with the term healthy.
Like, what is healthy? It's like, you know what the fuck healthy means, stupid. Like, it's not, I'm not making up this word.
And they're like, well, who is to say what is healthy? Well, we actually have a pretty good idea of what is healthy. So if your cholesterol is fucking 600, you're not healthy.
Like, why are we pretending? But people want you to go, yeah, but like, I can't believe a doctor is going to tell me if i'm healthy you're like that's the job stupid like that's what he's supposed to do they're they're telling you that this is not good and we all know that if you're carrying that much weight you're talking about like 350 400 and then the idea that like that's okay well you know it you know it's not. Before we continue, Tom just confirmed what we all knew, steroids in Hollywood are everywhere.
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Did you see that rapper who was disallowed from getting into a Lyft car and she's now suing Lyft. Yeah.
Also, a rapper is like, I know that she claims to be. Let's not give her too much credit.
I don't think she's signed to a label. But yeah.
A person who raps. Yeah.
I identify as a person who raps. A person who raps who is, I believe the thing said she was 392, which is like, not a lot of scales giving you that um i don't know if they went over to the truck stop and figured it out but she is enormous and and a driver was like yeah don't get in here i think he was worried about his tires yeah he's probably thinking about suspension rear axle and was like no and now they're like it was just shooting for discrimination it's like maybe the guy has a a point that he has a older car could you imagine i don't know whether this is right but imagine that she'd got in the car and there'd been some sort of an accident due to that i don't know i mean it's 400 pounds like surely you could have like two or three other people in the car that seems unless it's because it's all in one space i don't know anyway i think it's a it's an interesting one but also i guess on the flip side of that this i realized a while ago that people who were fat had a problem with ozempic because it was sort of denying their right to exist and it was this yeah but then there was a bunch of people that were in shape that had a problem with it too, because it gave people who didn't need to use as much hard work and willpower an easier route to being in shape.
I'm aware that losing fat isn't being in shape because there's muscle tone and all the rest of the stuff. But still, like you would look at somebody that is half the size, that's 150 as opposed to 300.
And you go, yeah, they're more in shape, at least with clothes on. And yeah, everybody is threatened in one form or another by shortcuts.
Everybody is. Because the reason that you look at someone who's in shape and you go, wow, that's good.
I feel some sort of sense of warmth and trustworthiness. It's because it's a reliable signal of what they've done to have to get there.
Whereas now you just think, hey, are you hardworking and consistent or have you got a prescription for a a zampik yeah exactly yeah that is what that is a thing that people do and it's like especially you see um somebody who has never done anything before and then they drop weight and then they go yeah you do the you do you you kind of look at them like oh you did the cheat code and then you you kind of dismiss them as a person you just go like oh you're a you're a shortcut person which i understand i mean that's yeah and now it's an unfalsifiable and it's losing weight either naturally or with assistance is the getting jacked naturally or with assistance for dudes like it's just a totally like unprovable hypothesis the crazy thing about this getting jacked thing though is like people don't know how even the people that are in hollywood that they go well that person's not on it they're on it too i've i know so many people who are geared out of their minds and even ones who you go well this person had a naturally lean aesthetic before and so it's it's believable that like no they're on they're on it too they're all on it they just never want to talk about it uh it's almost like the the most uh taboo thing you can bring up for some of these guys even though it's like so obvious

and out in the open

especially like

for people that like

are around

fitness

and in the gym

like you just know

like there's just tells

you just know

but

they don't want to be seen

they don't want

the perception to be

that they took a shortcut

but that they had

I wonder if that'll change

people coming out

online fitness influences

and stuff like that

it would be great I mean for some reason the last place where they're not I wonder if that'll change. People are coming out online, fitness influencers and stuff like that.

It would be great.

I mean, for some reason, the last place where they're not doing it is Hollywood, which is like, it's all bullshit anyways, right?

It's all the fugazi.

It's all people are wearing makeup.

They've got special lighting.

It's all bullshit, but none of them want to talk about it.

And it's pervasive.

It's so incredible how many are doing it.

Did you see that you can reset your Instagram algorithm now? They just released this this week. So you can completely wipe your Instagram algorithm and start basically afresh.
Wow. So I'd probably be healthy for me.
Well, yeah, you have a death and cars, right? That's it. I mean, I got like, I have the workplace accidents uh barbecue recipes italian women's feet watches yeah i probably gotta i gotta you really need this this was made for you wow uh but yeah i wonder if it'll uh purge all of the fitness influences that everybody followed when they first started instagram in 2011 because you kind of get there's this trick that happens to your mind too.
When you open your algorithm, you just go, well, this is what it is. This is the world.
This is, everybody's looking at Italian moments. Everybody is seeing these.
And you're like, this is how we're all spending our time. Yeah.
I think that'd be fascinating. Reset your Instagram algorithm.
There's like an actual. But yeah, it just, it's in the app.
They've released it. And it's like start over.
I think it said, want to start afresh? Question mark is the page that you go to. You have to accept some terms and conditions.
It feels a little bit like euthanizing someone. You're like, okay, are you sure that you're prepared to get rid of, you know, a decade of you building up this very carefully curated algorithm? I wonder if there's a little bit that lingers there and they go, well, let him try, but something tells us like we might just have to throw the old shit in a little bit yeah it gets used to the new stuff but that would be i mean that'd be fascinating to see what i actually want now as opposed to what i've fucking pounded ruined so many other people's algorithms you know that by browsing on their phone no just i send them videos and then they go dude now they're like now i get sent like cyclists falling off a cliff every day and i'm like oh yeah they're like you've fucked everything up for me and nothing makes me happier than like knowing that one of my friends is getting cursed with the same yeah i'm like good ryan long ryan long was doing some research for a bit uh and he was looking at quadruple amputees.
Yeah yeah and he's now just got his entire algorithm it i know you dive down these rabbit holes on there and then you're like that's the shit you like oh we'll give you more of you it's like i was doing some research yeah i was just looking kind of i do yeah now it's like yeah like uh my buddy bert looks at like just like poverty stricken people preparing meals. So it's just like somebody like really lower income being like, this is all I have.
And they're making lunch. And then like, he's like, yeah, I'm just fascinated by this.
I'm like, what the fuck? And he's just like, and if you look at his phone, it's just like people below the poverty line making meals. It's a feedback loop.
Yeah. I had a guy that wrote the book on artificial intelligence, the textbook that was used worldwide in like 100 languages, something like that.
And Stuart Russell, he said there's this really interesting thing. There's two ways that algorithms can be better at predicting what it is that you're going to click on.
One is that they continue to feed you clickable content. But the other one, it's bi-directional.
The other one is to nudge your preferences so that you become easier to predict. And I was like, huh, that makes so much sense because all that it's looking to do is maximize clicks.
But there's two people in this. There's both the content that's being served and there's the preferences of the person that's clicking.
So over time, these algorithms nudge people's preferences and how easier is it to predict what somebody will or will not click on than by pushing them out to the fringe of any viewpoint. If you are, I know exactly what you're going to like and what you're going to hate because you're out on the right or you're out on the left or you're at the top or the bottom or whatever, super easy.
If you're in the middle and you're like, I this way i'm not so bothered about that really really hard so it's like huh i haven't ever heard anybody talk about this other direction of how algorithms work by nudging your preferences to be more predictable not by getting better at serving you stuff that it knows you're going to click on yeah that's really fascinating it's scary too the way i've actually used utilize the thing a lot on instagram uh the not interested because like sometimes you're like what the fuck is all what why is this here and you start to like hit that because hopefully just to get like something new try it yeah there's uh i remember this was on facebook ages ago but uh the power of saying don't show me this page again or show me fewer posts like this. Yeah.
A hundred to one,

I think,

compared with a like.

So it's so rare, right?

It's so much more effortful

for you to say,

like not interested in this thing.

So yeah,

I mean,

that's the trait.

Or you can just completely,

you know,

500 days of summer it

and decide to get by that.

Have you done that?

Have you done a total?

No,

I only found out about it yesterday.

So I'd consider it.

I think I probably will.

Unplug?

Oh yeah.

Well,

no, just reset. Oh, reset.
I'd spent a weekamaica where i didn't have my phone does that count no that doesn't wasn't that though like a type of experience for you the fact that you like i have friends that like are really at like have done the thing where they they give the the account to somebody else to post they're like this is just rotting my brain, spending way too much time. And a couple of them that I can think of told me that it made them so much happier.
So in other words, they just go, here's the password. I'll tell you when to post things.
I don't want to have anything to do with it anymore. I think a lot of people like that.
But one of the things I realized when I was in Jamaica was if you don't have any, so this was the week leading up to TikTok ban, all of that stuff.

If you have to self-generate things to talk about, it's really interesting because you get to places

that are a little bit deeper, that are a little bit more interesting. But on the flip side,

you realize how reliant you are on, yo, do you see that blah, blah, blah, blah, blah that happened

this morning? Oh, have you noticed that Trump said this, this you go okay so not only is it sort of capturing my time and my attention it's even like getting inside of me and staring out through my own eyes and making noises come out of my mouth yeah because you're part of it is that you feel like you're in the game right like contributing yeah and and also like if you're completely unplugged then you're one of those people that's just like huh what happened a health care guy got shot like you don't want to be that guy you don't want to be the guy doesn't know anything so there is like this kind of balance of like do you want to be in the game or you don't want to be obsessed also with like because i i do this thing where i when especially when i'm alone right where you do you do the cycle i call it like like where i go like uh youtube instagram emails tiktok youtube like whatever like you just yeah what's that and then you just you're just like wow like too like i the hard thing for me is when you get back from a show like we're on i'm on the road you got to show you're in your room and you're like all right it's time to like i should go to bed soon-ish i'm just gonna look for a second yeah and that's like you get into that that loop it's like you have to have the discipline to just be like no advantage of being around people and it's the disadvantage if you spend a lot of time on your own because you like assuage your feelings of loneliness yeah by having a friend yes well i'm not going to feel alone i don't need to feel bored i don't even have to whatever you're okay with the person's here it's like phone can fuck off i don't think about it having a great conversation with a friend i'm not thinking about it that's right the second that they leave like at body gun yeah and it's like the second the millisecond correct yeah i mean sometimes you're just like, like, I mean, when some, you know, when some, when gonna go to the bathroom you're like okay it's like it's so it's so immediate yeah it is a drug i got uh i got followed it was a couple of weeks ago now there was a period for about two weeks where tons and tons of latino and spanish accounts were following me i was like that's a fucking red flag yeah like something's happened in spanish yeah somewhere and i can't read it i can't decipher it i don't know what has caught but something upstream and ai translated all your shit no no it was just like i maybe someone or something had got a hold of something that i'd said i'm like this could be positive this could be the beginning of me fucking starting some sort of war with like the country of mexico i don't know but i just i had no idea what was going on like fuck fuck fuck fuck like being followed by it was the same whitney cummings told me that um after she did that cnn thing tons of comedians texted her saying that was so funny and she's like immediate red flag if lots of comedians text you and say that the thing you just did on tv was funny yeah huge warning sign yeah massive fucking warnings yeah

yeah like that was the wait did you figure out what no no still no i'm just like this is it's

an open loop i'm flying in the dark here i mean yeah comedians complimenting you definitely makes

you go like hmm i fucked up yeah i did something wrong i went to this uh daytime house music party

in austin on saturday it's called mushroom cowboy so it's uh my grudos to kind of event i don't know i think they're kind of hinting at that but it's in a coffee well it was outside of a coffee shop off congress yeah so i turn up at half 10 it started at 10 and the queue is 250 yards long for coffee what and there must have been 1500 people 1,500 people there. One guy brought a baguette, was raving with his baguette.
There was dogs, you know, pretty sober looking from the outside. Maybe some people smoking weed.
But I think this is maybe the beginning of us seeing the end of like hardcore drink culture. If you've looked at how few Gen Z now drink.
it's i think maybe 20 the interesting thing is like the the theories on why because there's obviously there they have to be theories right on on we don't actually know exactly yeah uh one of them is that people the youth views drinking as like what their parents did, right? So that's like- Naturally uncool. Yeah.
My fucking lame ass dad drinks. Like, I don't, I'm not interested.
And so that's one thing. The other part of it is that this group of people that are the youth right now are so much more informed on what the negative aspects of drinking and what it can do to you that they're just like, why would I, you know, why would I, yeah, to something like that.
And that they've found this whole other, you know, when you want to take the edge off, there's a lot more options. And it's also a lot more accepted today than it was 20 years ago.
Like the idea that you could microdose or do edibles or smoke or, you know what I mean? And then there's like all the, you know, ketamine and everything is like, I have it. I have different things that I do when I want to have a recreational good time.
Um, and yeah, but it's, it's undeniable that itiable that it's definitely way down. There's more daily users in the US of weed now than there are of alcohol.
Is that for real? Overtaken. Or at least that was the most recent study that I saw.
In the US, there are more daily or near daily marijuana users than daily or near daily alcohol users. And that thought was just completely, like if you're're a teen right now you don't understand how preposterous that sounds coming from like if you were growing up in the 80s and 90s like you were just like as that those were like the fringe people almost you know i mean like yes it was popular but it was not like a respectable person really wasn't doing that you know it was like the arts it was like hippies and and yeah it was i mean people thought of it as like the absolute worst thing that could happen i mean people from like my dad's generation likened marijuana to heroin they didn't even see like really a difference they're just like you're a junkie it's like but life for smoking a joint and like yeah that's the way they viewed it so the fact that it's that accepted now it's it's mind-blowing to me i wonder if some of it is that drinking in the house on your own feels pretty fucking bad yeah smoking in the house on your own you're like i'm just watching i'm playing call of duty yeah leave me alone but if you if you're six bsd playing call of duty yeah it's a different story yeah and you're not playing well i thought you're just like i don't know how well people are playing on weed either but yeah yeah you're probably more likely to yell out pejorative slurs um yeah i think that um i mean look smoke smoking is still not good for you so like you're probably, but we've discovered that, you know, there's other ways to ingest and like consume.
And that's what I think is part of like this youth culture thing about staying away from drinking is they're like, whatever, I do droplets in this or I, you know, I have my gummy or whatever, however they want to consume. But they're just, they're definitely not drinking, man.
They're not drinking like everybody else before them did. I used to run nightclubs for ages.
And one of the big downturns we've seen has been in nightlife industry. I think the UK is losing a nightclub a week.
There's not like an unlimited number of nightclubs. It's like one is shutting down pretty much every single week.
And I asked a friend who's still in the industry why he thought that was the case. And he said, smartphones, man.
Back in the day, you could be as loose as you wanted. You could sort of have that leery, louty, drinking spirit, at least in Britain where it's a big deal.
That they don't want to be recorded? Of course. Like if you mess up and like shit yourself in the middle of a nightclub in 2002, it's a story that you can deny the next day.
And then after six months, most people have probably forgotten. Whereas if that happens in in 2025 that's now concretized on the internet for everybody to know and bring back up and make memes out of for the rest of time i mean it's but imagine like how the pro athletes of the 80s and 90s and early 2000s would just go out and just just destroy just destroy a woman's hopes and dreams and then now they're all yeah they're like everyone's on edge yeah everyone's got a phone out it's just yeah it's it's a totally different by the way do you ever think about why as i still remember that like why was house music and dancing in general so much bigger in Europe than here? People here were never like, let's go dance.
I'm not sure. I mean, I guess why does any scene of any kind appear anywhere? We certainly have in the UK, like a good house music culture.
Yeah. A lot of people didn't have much else to do other than go out and party and drink.
Yeah. If the weather's bad, then we're not going to go out to the ranch.

We're not going to go and see the sunset.

We're not going to go to the beach

because it's fucking freezing cold all the time.

So you kind of just zero in

on the one thing that's reliable,

which is beer.

Yeah.

Pubs or clubs.

Yeah, yeah.

No, I just remember like so many times

like being in the States

and having like European friends

are like, why don't you guys, you guys don't like to go dance and i was like no no we're not going dancing bro like like no and and then i would remember like studying abroad being like oh yeah we would that's that was like a normal thing just go to a place that was just like packed and everybody just loud music dancing it just was one of those things where i was like it just didn't translate over here. I mean, there's still clubs, obviously, but it just wasn't the same type of, oh, I just want to go listen to this and literally dance.
Like that's what people I felt like were doing a lot more in Europe than here. Yeah, there's another study that just came out recently about rates of sexlessness.
So this has sort of been talked about for ages. And there was this big study in 2018 that looked really scary.
And then it kind of got reversed in the GSS data. Then there's this new one.
Rates of sexlessness are climbing among adults aged 22 to 34. Stats plucked from the newly unsheathed National Survey of Family Growth showed 10% of young males and 7% of their female counterparts saying they're still virgins.
That's 22 to 34. Damn.
In sum, for all young adults, adult males, sexlessness has roughly doubled in all measures over the last 10 years. For young females, it's risen by roughly 50%.
So 24% of men, 22 to 24, had not had sex in 2022, up from 9% in 2013. And for females, the number was 13% up from 8%.
And when asked if they'd had sex in the last three months, 35% of men said no, jumping from 20% and women didn't fare much better with 31% up from 21%. So basically, not going out, not partying, not having sex at like- Not socializing.
The highest rates. Yeah, it seems so.
Yeah. So there's a real pervasive issue of loneliness is a real thing that most people don't think about if they're not lonely.
If they have company, if they have friends, if they have relationships, you don't realize how many people are literally lonely people. Like, they're alone.
They don't have that companionship. And you take it for granted, I think, if it's not something that you have to deal with.
Have you ever met somebody who you realize is lonely in this world and it it affects you i mean it affected me like where you just go like oh this person just doesn't have relationships like they're and there's you know there could be so many reasons why but what i'm saying is that it's so many more people than you think about when you're not in that position. It's so many more people.
So many people are lonely. I'm not surprised by it.
The other thing about, like, the sexual statistics, I was first, like, surprised when I heard one of my friends has daughters that are college age and was saying that, you know, he was like, yeah, like she all through her adolescence into high school, everything just hung out with girls. And she was like, she doesn't, she's never had the experience of like, like, oh, guys are aggressive.
She was like like guys don't talk to us like that's

that's the world that she grew up in is like she was going to college and was like you know she's like well hope i don't get raped but that's all that's what she thinks of like men is that like they're either predators but she just didn't predators are in cells those are the two choices She was, yeah. But like, she just didn't have the experience of like boys trying to like hit on her or just even engage.
She was just like with girls. And then she was like, yeah, guys.
And I think there's like a lot you can deduce from that. some of it too is that like the is like about the guys not necessarily but like about how those guys

have been growing up in the last you know decade plus in a different environment than like we grew up in or that i grew up in right which was like they came up in this sure there's been like a fem there's a feminism cycle that's always happening but they also grew up in like me too and and all this these things that become report and like some of those boys become fearful of interacting with them like well i don't want to be seen as like this so and they just what happens is they just wait though i'll that'll happen later like my interactions then they're 15 16 7 now they're in college and they've still yet to interact so with no experience with no experience so then it makes sense to when you hear a statistic like well they're 22 or 24 and they're aversions like they're still probably like oh that that's gonna happen later because me too happened as they were about to start speaking to girls i think i mean it's to me it seems like a pretty logical way to tie things in right like and these were like the dominant stories remember you couldn't get away from these And so, I don't know, to like build, I mean, you want to raise somebody, I have boys, you want to raise them in a healthy environment and like, you know, teach them how to interact with the opposite sex. But like, I think if you're, if you don't have encouragement to like, yeah, try and talk and just be normal.
And you're just like, you know, you guys are the predators. Like, it can be probably scary for some of those young kids.
The huge problem with telling men, don't be pushy. Yeah.
Is that the guys who need to hear it the most aren't going to take heat. They're never going to hear it.
And the guys who really should be encouraged more are going to take it to heart. Yeah, that's true.

It's like gun laws.

How so?

Well, I mean, like you can have the strictest gun laws, but the people who really like who want guns are just going to fucking get them anyway. If you're sufficiently motivated, you'll find a way to work around.
You're just, I mean, gun laws are like, you know, they're, it, they exist on paper, but like, if you want a gun and you're like, I'm getting one and i'm going to shoot someone like that's you're not gonna be like oh shit that's against the law like you're just gonna you're just gonna do what you want to do you know what i mean like so it's it's those are the people that that they write the laws for they write them for those guys we'll get back to talking to tom in one minute but first i tell you about Nomadic. Traveling should be about the journey, not, see that one hand, the chaos of packing, which is why I partnered with Nomadic.
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That's nomadic.com slash modern wisdom. Have you learned much about like yourself or your nature, seeing it reflected back to you and your boys? Um, a little bit.
Yeah. I mean, my youngest is like my twin and it's fucking, it's just, he's, uh, he's very sensitive and he also like flies off the car.
He's like Joe Pesci though. He's just like motherfucker.
And you're like, God damn, he's six years old. And he's just, he, he has the craziest mouth on him.
But like every time he does something, like he explodes with like a reaction to something, you know, my wife just goes, she goes that's your genetics she's like that's you i'm like you know i mean i'm talking about like if he bumps a table you know he's like what the fuck why is this fucking thing here i'm like and then she's like you do that i'm like okay um but he's also like a very like he's really sweet and he's really sensitive, very tender kid. And she's like, that's who you are, like, at your core, you know, you're this sweet guy and you have this exterior, like this little maniac.
but she was like, you guys are the, yeah. So sometimes you're like, and the other thing that kids do is like, you don't realize cause you,

you interact so much with adults,

you know,

as an adult.

And then they'll,

they'll say,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know, you know, you know, you've been like, what the fuck are you guys doing? My kids will be like, hey, we are kids. You don't talk to a kid like that.
And I'll be like, okay, sorry. Reverse discipline.
Yeah. Seriously.
And they're like, why would you yell you yell like that i'm like because you're painting the house you're putting paint on the house like stop painting the walls of the house and they're like okay just say it i'm like okay i shouldn't have to tell you don't paint the house you're not we shouldn't have to tell you not to fly off the handle yeah we shouldn't tell you not to you don't have to yell like that i'm like okay can you please stop painting the house so that i have to call a real painter now to fix what you just did and they're like okay see how that worked i'm like yeah great but yeah it totally resets you you're like what am i on my fucking mind here like yeah but it does work yeah dude yeah it's so funny uh this i got it we got to talk about this headline the department of governmental efficiency in this office of management finding 50 million dollars was earmarked to spend on condoms in gaza do you see this no in condoms department of governmental efficiency in the office of management and budget found that the biden administration was about to send 50 million dollars to fund condoms for gaza this was yesterday this is the biggest thing on twitter at the moment and when like do we know when they were they were about to do this so they were just like stop having babies i don't know why so there's two main theories for why it might have been okay first one's money laundering 50 million okay a lot of money laundering second one is uh a lot of palestinians had been attaching ieds to condoms that were filled with like refrigerant gas what ids okay and then releasing incendiary devices in israeli territory so it's like the most it's they can float these things over and then drop ids drop incendiary devices so those are the two main theories the one that it's money laundering and the second one that it's improvised explosive condoms wait but money laundering benefiting who though i don't know yeah well it's not i actually think that's not enough money to be like a strong money laundering. 50 mil? 50 million is not that much money.
When you talk about- Rock in the ocean? Well, when you talk about the grand scale of like government funding, fundings and, you know, criminal, like 50 million is not like the amount where you go like, it's not like- Well, maybe they thought they could get it under the know i don't know how useful that is but i mean it seems like i didn't know about the idea that that part is if they're like look we can't send you bombs but we'll send you some condoms and you guys know you do your little some helium in them you do your little wizardry that you've been doing it's so fascinating that people can make anything useful for what because you always hear these like prison stories where they're like get the fuck out of here yeah well that's how they're just like yeah these guys they made their shoelace and a toothbrush into a knife and you're like what the fuck are you talking about and and then you know they can't give them anything because everything becomes a weapon right and so that i mean i would have never guessed that i thought what you were going to go with was they were just saying like look you're going to keep having sex but stop making babies because you just you know like that that would be the explanation for it restriction and stuff like that yeah i mean or just like you can't you don't want to have babies in this environment so start wearing that's a altruistic way to look at it's like a logical logical way to go like no no no no floating IEDs floating IEDs touch pipe also because it's like it's dark in that they if the explanation is like look on paper we can't send you weapons you guys just have this you know what to do you know the condoms and that's our way of saying we support you too yeah we support both of you just you with condoms and you with missiles yeah can you imagine that that's the fight condoms versus missiles i mean it kind of is one person's throwing rocks the other one's throwing an entire technological armory it's fucking wiped out man yeah there was a it's like the two stories that i saw yesterday the first one was about maybe these condoms are being used for ieds and the second one was the international doomsday clock federation saying it's at 89 seconds to midnight it's like the closest that it's ever been and this is how close humanity is to destruction or self-destruction or something like that i'm like if we if it's like a day clock or something or 12 hour clock and you're 89 second maybe it was at 90 or 91 or something before like we're so close now we should just move it back to like 6 p.m and then increase the increments between it's like 89 like what does that mean what does that mean i don't know well it's basically that uh this decision reflects concerns over nuclear risk climate change and disruptive technologies like ai indicating a dire warning about humanity's proximity to existential threats it's the closest point it's ever been to symbolic global catastrophe it's like what does 89 seconds mean what does that ever mean i have no idea i'm completely lost i microdosed this morning

so i don't know let's fucking go okay let's fucking go 89 seconds i don't know i don't know what it means but i it seems to me like this um period that we're in now has got definitely a lot more unpredictability largely because of trump it's like what's actually going to happen.

Do you think that,

you know how people are always doing this thing of they're like hey the end of the world has to be near at this point like everything do you think there's ever been a time when people weren't saying that no i think it's always been a thing right but people always are like and i mean yeah trump is like i, he's such a polarizing figure. I've never seen somebody also, in my opinion, be so transparently themselves and have people react to that person in such extreme different ways.
Like, he so clearly is who he is there is no he doesn't put up this

disguise and then you have people who see it through the lens of like this is like somebody who's here to save us and you're like what and then or destroy us yeah and so like every people see him as like this great person who has best intentions for citizens and country. And then other people who are like, this is a con man, you know? But I mean, it's just so insane to me that there's both views.
The same guy. It is the same guy.
Doing the same things. Yeah.
And it's pretty, I thought it was so clear who he is. Like he just reads so clearly.
It's like an, you know, the Rorschach test? Yeah. It's like an ideological Rorschach test.
It kind of is. Hey, look at this.
Is it bunny rabbit, butterfly, sunrise? Like, what is it? Yeah. And some people see one and some people see the complete opposite.
It's a fascinating thing, though, right? When you think about it that way, about this person, that he can exist and be who he is, say the things he says, has his resume, has like a clear list of actions. um you know that it's there's no mystery to who this person is and people still choose to view it through we are it's not even shoes just the way it is like human beings view this through completely different lenses it's kind of fascinating yeah have you ever met him no i sat like six feet from him okay and uh i didn't meet him though didn't get to shake his hand i saw i saw this video of him shaking gavin newsom's hand and uh there's a huge debate online about who out alfred who oh and uh because trump does that that thing he does but then yeah newsom like knows it's coming they must have prepped oh for sure they practiced the thing like this is gonna be a big deal and as he pulls him in newsom puts his hand on his shoulder like that so you know he's like sort of pushing and pulling like shoulder yeah yeah so it's like you know how you you sort of tap someone on the but he's gone on the front so as he gets pulled in he's able to leverage it's so interesting but i don't know like the there's a bit of me i mean how long has i been in office like fucking two weeks or some shit yeah it's very very quick every every morning i wake up to npr because i like to drop my testosterone first thing in the morning sure and it's just trump headline trump headline trump headline trump headline It's like just him.
I'm kind of already a bit sick of it. I had this like, so on his first term, I got 1000% news fatigue from that.
Like when he went out of office, I was like collapsing. And I realized that actually over the last four years, I consumed way less news than I used to.
I used to be kind of all day reading that. And since he's been in office, I've seen headlines.
I know about multiple executive orders. but I don't even want to get into that uh that emotional investment it's almost like when you're a fan of a team like you don't really have the experience of being a sports fan unless you're emotionally invested that's really when you're a fan is when it could ruin your day yeah it has to ruin your day otherwise you're not really a fan and yes you know, you're not really a fan.
And yes, you know, obviously, like, I live in this country. I want things to go well here.
I'm hoping for the best. But I cannot emotionally invest in Trump news and just what's happening with this administration like I did the first time.
Because it just frankly takes up too much energy and too much time. And I do do not i have a number of things going on and i do not want to be it's it's also a distraction it's not really affecting you the way you think it is you know you you start to like hear these things and and then you just bark at your friend about it you know you're like you just fucking believe this bullshit it's like it's not really affecting most people in the way that they think it is and that they say it is.
It just isn't like in the way that most presidents in there don't really change your life that much. So now I know there's people that are going to hear this and be like, well, you know, it kind of affected my life because X, Y, and Z happened.
Okay. So there's things that are exceptions to that but for the most part like what the president is doing whoever the president is it doesn't really affect your life that much you can choose to invest in such a way where it starts to do like literally it's like the the energy of your day went into reacting to what this person that did that you either love or hate and it's like, I can't do it.
Well, think about, you're worried about the outcomes of the policy or whatever. Maybe that'll impact you.
Maybe it won't, but you can ruin your day worrying about it, no matter, regardless of what happens. This thing does or doesn't happen.
It doesn't matter. Your day's already been ruined by worrying about what it is that's gone on.
Like, I don't anxiety or something it reminds me of like the fear of of conversations like confrontation like when you go uh chris did something i don't want to talk to him about it but like fuck and you start to like play in your head all the ways that it could go you know i mean you have like this anxiety building inside of you of like, and you start to avoid and avoid and avoid. And then it's just like, just have the conversation.
And then you realize that the worry about the conversation is worse than the conversation itself, right? Like the, all, everything leading up to that, it's all in your head. I don't want to have all this exercise in my mind where I'm just like so emotionally drained by what the president was doing.
You know, it's like, I feel that as a distraction. Isn't it interesting that like our fear of fear is so much worse than whatever it is that we've got to fear.
Yeah. Like just reliably.
Yes. It's like you learn that you can actually, if you're in your twenties, yous you can start you know i think get into the practice of like you learn that like having because conversations are a thing that i think really make people scared communicating with people about like what you want what you need like those types of things, those aren't inherently,

you're not just like good at that.

You have to get into it.

And like the younger you can get into

the practice of doing it,

this is what I think,

this is how I feel.

Oh my God,

you're in a totally different group.

You're in a totally different group

than the people who,

you know,

repress and just shut down.

Like, I mean,

that's how I was built. Just like, just don't talk about it.
Don't talk. You don't have needs.
Subjugate them. Your desires aren't worthy.
There's no point in doing this. You just shut down.
And then, yeah, that's gonna show itself somewhere else. Yeah.
Neil Strauss says, unspoken expectations are premeditated resentments. And people just have this like sense, well, you should have wanted this thing yes you go well you didn't fucking tell me yeah how do you but now i'm resentful about the fact that you didn't do the thing that i didn't ask you to do you i resent you for not knowing my thoughts is what you're if you love yeah if we were really friends and that's you would have known that is an unrealistic expectation to put on somebody.
Yeah. And sometimes it's you that needs to go like, oh, yeah.
I'm going to advocate for myself. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, so, I mean, some people, like, you really can put that work in.
You can realize that earlier in life. There is, there's actually like a similar thing,

I think for like health and fitness,

which we were talking about,

which is like,

they're not tied to communication,

but you realize that there are some people who they get it kind of beat into

them,

how important that is young.

And they,

they stay,

they stick with it.

And look,

man,

it's a lot.

I want to say it's easy, but it's easier to stay and maintain in your good health and fitness than it is to get way out of it and go back there.

So like if you're a young person and you are, you know, one of my friends said one time, he goes, you know, I've never been out of shape.

You know, like I was training as a teen and he's like, I've just never been out of shape. I'm like, oh yeah.
Like, he's like, so I just make that priority. That's a way better thing.
And I think there's a parallel for learning how to communicate about yourself. If you can work on those skills of like standing up for yourself, learning to talk about things that are bothering you or feeling or whatever, and you can maintain and build on that in a younger age, you're way ahead.
You're way ahead. Was that assertiveness something that you struggled with when you were younger? A thousand percent.
I mean, I don't, I didn't have a good model for it, honestly. You know, like I, I I think my dad was somebody that just like, he was a just kind of shut down and take it.
And so I feel like I was just like, oh, like if something is bothering you, you just kind of just deal with it. Yeah.
Yeah, you just deal with it. And I think I totally modeled that behavior, you know, of just, okay, like just, just push it down.
So yeah, it took years, I think of, of it bothering you enough to realize, yeah, then, and then you of course explode, right? Because you're, you're just repressing things. You have all of these resentments that build up over time yeah and then it just kind of shows itself in other ways but yeah i mean i've gotten to a place i think where at the very least an awareness of like you have to communicate and you know i've become much more assertive and i you know say what I want and talk to people way differently than I did 10, 15, 20 years ago.
It's strange that we, I have that too. Lots of people have lots of discomfort around advocating for themselves.
So the only way you can serve anybody else is if you're, you can whatever the serve people from the from the saucer that overflows around your cup. Like how, how are you going to sort anybody else if you, if your stuff hasn't been sorted? And, uh, yeah, you know, there's this stat about it's the likelihood that people ensure their dog completes a course of antibiotics is 95%.
The likelihood that they complete a course of antibiotics is 50%. You were literally better at looking after an animal than we are looking after ourselves that makes total sense i also think that there's something where like you know like if you have a friend like it's more likely that i would advocate for you harder than i would myself way easier yeah it's way easier to do yeah like and really dig into how fucking dare you oh yeah yeah like yeah but yeah you'll really stand up for them but then you'll be encouraging to them it's like i'm gonna fight on your behalf but once we're done i'll come don't worry man like you know you tried your best it's like the level of support yeah that's the other love oh my god the way that you talk to friends about any of their struggles and like how they should see themselves versus how we talk to ourselves when i heard that first broken down i was like oh my god like i'm so abusive i'm a criminal yeah like it's like yeah you talk the way i talk to myself like i i have much less self-loathing these days than i did like everything it always rears its head and you always and it's it's not i don't feel like you get like this is done right but it when something peaks in like that i feel like it it has a much shorter shelf life because you realize it's it's it is not very loving um there's no acceptance there and it's it's ultimately it's it's not productive what's productive is like taking action on whatever the thing is so like i i just feel like whenever like even like if it's like fitness health and you're like you fuck a piece of shit sitting around doing nothing look at this fucking gut or whatever it is that it doesn't really i i could sit in that if i wanted to and i have before for a long time but it's just like no it's like today now let's go right like whether it's what you're eating or let's go train you just feel like you know with even with like creative things you you get in like self-loathing kind of ruts also about like what your productivity is, whether you're writing a script or you're on stage.
But sitting in that, you just realize it just, you just fall deeper into it and you just, it doesn't, you don't do anything. The older you get, the more you just realize the only solution for this feeling is just action.
So like what I just do in those moments when I feel that is I open my laptop or I get a pen or I just go to get on stage and I go, I'm forcing myself, even if this fucking bombs, like, I don't want to sit in that feeling of like, I suck. And also, I wouldn't do it to you, right? If you were like i suck i wouldn't be like you know you do suck man like you should just sit here and do nothing i would be like get up let's go let's go do something let's go train whatever let's let's work on a project like so you just learn i think with age and experience that action is like it really is the the big solve i i that's the one thing i would tell i told you i don't like to advise like young artists and i really don't but the one thing i would feel comfortable telling them is like doing something is the way to getting where you want to go i don't care if you're a painter or a writer or an actor or a comedian.
You're not going to achieve any of that by sitting here and feeling bad about yourself. Go ahead if you want to.
But the way out of this is by doing the thing. You have to act.
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Well, if you think that action really is the only thing that matters in the end and what you're trying to achieve, presumably by calling yourself a piece of shit internally, is motivating yourself to go and do the action. Okay.
So what I think is independent of the action. So if I can just go and do the action, I don't need to make myself unnecessarily suffer beforehand.
That's just an addiction to me always seeing me like the villain or like the loser or like the person that doesn't get anything done. And has there ever been a time when you've gone and done something without calling yourself a piece of shit for doing it?

Yeah, loads of times.

Sure.

All the time, all the time.

You gotta do stuff without first,

like fucking whipping yourself into submission.

Yeah.

Okay, so try and continue to shortcut that.

Yes, try. Calling yourself a piece of shit thing

and just go straight to,

I'm just gonna do the thing.

Yeah.

I'm just gonna try and do the thing.

And yeah, there's an idea around, there are so many people working so hard and achieving so little. And I think the same about the internal landscape of people's minds.
There are so many people thinking so meanly about themselves and having so few outcomes from it. It's like, okay, so the reason you want to go and do something is presumably to make your life better.
And in the process of trying to motivate yourself to go and do something to make your life better, you make your life fucking miserable. It's like you're sacrificing the thing that you want for the thing that's supposed to get the thing that you want.
And then you realize, well, the more that I call myself a piece of shit, actually kind of doesn't really motivate me all that much. It's kind of like a toxic fuel that doesn't last that long.
Maybe it gets me in a really, really bad situation and really, really down on my health or whatever it is, or I'm young. After a while, it's just habit and routine.
People get addicted to the suffering, right? And what you try to get to is just actually looking at that voice as almost like a sign you're passing on a highway. You just kind of look and you go like, oh yeah, there's that.
I think that's a place you want. And then hopefully one day it's not even there at all.
It's in the past. But yeah, the longer you're in the cycle of being productive, the less that voice is there and the less it lasts.
And the more you see it for what it is, which is like, it's a nuisance and it's an obstacle and you and it's an enemy as well it's not your friend it's not your mind's not your friend when it's doing that yeah at all yeah but it is something that again like i think so many people think that that's just them you know i mean like they just go like man i'm the only one with these like dude it's yeah your therapist has those thoughts that's just them. You know what I mean? Like they just go like, man, I'm the only one with these like, dude, it's yeah.
Your therapist has those thoughts like for real. It's funny as well.
A lot of people, I think that maybe have those kinds of thoughts, um, have high goals for themselves and they've probably maybe started to make some movement toward them. So you go, wow.
So you believe that you have agency in the real world. You think that your efforts can cause an outcome to happen.
And the fact that you moved out of the house a little bit younger than most of your friends, or the fact that you changed that career that you didn't really like, or when you acquired that skill that you really, really wanted, why do you think that happened? It's like, well, because I worked at it. I worked really hard.
You go, okay, so you're telling me that you and your agency can influence the world outside of you. Yes.
Okay. You know the texture of your mind? You know the way that you think? Like, do you think that you have agency over everything? And then that, for some reason, stops at the boundary of your skull.
Yeah. So like the only thing that you actually do directly have agency over, which is what's happening inside of your mind, is the one place that you don't- You feel like you're a victim.
Most helpless in there. And it's such a paradox, right? So I think people have even been able to save relationships.
My partner really wasn't sure that this was going to work. And I proved to them that this was the right thing.
And now we're married and we're so happy and all the rest of it. So it's not even like you think that you have more agency over other people now than you do over the way that you think it just shows you like like all this just makes me think about how complicated the human mind and experience is it is just it like you know when you go to like talk about like health and weight loss right there's so many people who you go, do you know what to do? Like, do you know what to do to do it? And so many people are like, yeah, just eat this and do this.
And you're like, so what is the holdup, right? Well, the holdup is that sure that formula is simple, but existing in the world and dealing with life and emotions and thoughts is not that simple. And so the execution of this plan sometimes, it just doesn't go as simply as it kind of should, right? Being a human being is complicated it just is we have sophisticated we're sophisticated minds and and and entities on this in this it speaks to like what you were just saying it's like how can you have so much control over this situation but not here it's like you know i mean how can you not know to eat some fucking chicken and go on a walk? It's like, well, you do, but it's just, being here is more complicated than that.
It just is. I remember you told this story about a friend of yours who got diagnosed with real late stage cancer.
He was like, I'm going to beat this. You're like, dude, you tell that? This was like, it was so insane.
I it was when he was like i'm gonna beat this you're like dude yeah you tell that this was like it's so insane i i it was one it was like my closest high school friend and he came to see me uh do a show in palm beach and i remember uh we walked back from we went to a bar that was near the hotel and we walked back to the hotel and he was like he's overweight

he was like really huffing and puffing sweating and i was like god i was like i'm fat but you're

a fucking mess like i was like that was hard for you like we just walked like on a you know

no hill just like straight down the street it's like like, all right, well, it is Florida.

It's humid or whatever. And the next day, I think they spent the night and they were driving back.
And then the day after that, I was living in LA. I get back to LA and another friend was like, oh, did you hear what happened? I was like, hear what happened? I didn't, what do you mean? Oh, yeah.
on their way back to their house, my friend's wife was like, I don't like the way you look or you're breathing. So we're just gonna stop by the emergency room.
And I kind of convinced him to. They go to the emergency room, he gets x-rayed.
He's got tumors everywhere.

He's got stage four lung cancer. And it's like, and so this is how I find out on this call.
And then, you know, he goes immediately into treatment, right? And they're like, yeah, this is, you know, this is basically as bad as it can get. So his brother finds the specialist who treats this particular type of cancer in Indianapolis.
He's doing trips from Florida to Indianapolis. I go visit him in the hospital and this is like, I don't know, maybe a month has gone by or something.
So he's deep into his chemo. He's bald.
He's lost 80 pounds or something.

And maybe a month has gone by or something. So he's deep into his chemo.
He's bald.

He's lost 80 pounds or something.

And like,

I'm like,

everybody's face is kind of like,

you know,

you can just read it.

Doctors,

spouse,

friends,

everyone's like,

it's good that you're here,

you know?

And you're like,

yeah.

And then him

he's just like yeah man just doing this and like you know i'll beat this thing and then maybe uh by the way in the summer we can go to this and i'm like what the fuck and i'm like oh he's just like crazy you know and i'm like does does he understand the gravity of this? And they're like, I mean, I think so.

But I always told him, I go, I think you're dumb enough to think you can do this.

And I actually remember that when my uncle, my uncle was a world-renowned urologist.

And when he got mesothelioma, I remember my dad being like, know it's it's he's too smart he knows how to read these charts like he just he's like he knows he's gonna die he knows he's just he there's just no and i i i say it jokingly but i feel like my friend was also like uninformed and determined obviously obviously, to just be like, yeah, I mean, I know this sucks and this treatment sucks, but I'll be fine. And like.
Believe it. Believe.
And they consider him like in this field and especially with like in this specialty as like a true miracle. And he did beat it.

Yeah.

He's been in remission for,

what is it now?

Like seven or more year.

I forget how many years now.

And he beat it and he's,

and he's,

and like right away,

by the way,

you're like,

he's like,

he drinks,

he fucking dips,

he eats like shit.

And you're like,

it's like,

didn't that scare you into a different lifestyle? He's like, huh? I'm like, you're fucking, fucking, he's got a watermelon head. So maybe there's just like air in there.
I don't know. But yeah, no, he doesn't take like particularly good care of himself, which is a, look, it's further into like the.
We're talking about how minds work.

I remember when my dad...

Also, I was at the same...

I just realized this right now.

I was at the same comedy club.

This is more than 10 years ago.

This is closer to 15 years ago in Florida.

And he came to a show and also didn't look good

and was also breathing heavy.

Stop going to that comedy club.

I know, right?

And Closer to 15 years ago in Florida. And he came to a show and also didn't look good and was also breathing heavy.
Stop going to that comedy club. I know, right? Killing people.
And my mom also made him go to the emergency room on the way home. And he had 98% blockage in one of his arteries.
So they did an emergency stint, right? Open up the artery, which is like fairly common. But obviously, like, it's one of those things, those things like if he didn't do that he probably would have had a heart attack in the next whatever couple weeks or something and like i don't know when he got out of the hospital you know you feel this relief at the time and like the next time i called him because we would talk like almost every day i was like where are you i'm at mcdonald's and i'm like did you just get an emergency stint put in like for your clogged arteries yeah i know and i'm just having a mcmuffin like what the fuck man and i'm like don't you want to like you know go oh thank you for this new lease on life and eat differently he's like what like okay okay like people just are who they are you know in some cases like i i would think i don't know maybe it's just like in in like when i i broke my fucking arm and tore my patellar tendon and i viewed like some of that was just like a catalyst of like oh i need to take better care of myself so i guess it's just how you're wired, I guess, in a way, right? Where you're like, I don't want to be.
To learn from experience. So I guess I'm friends with stupid people.
I don't know. Fucking magic.
Like, yeah. Like, I don't know.
I was like, you don't want to start eating healthier because your arteries are clogged. And he was like, it's a McMuffin.
I'm like, okay. My friend beats cancer.
And you're're like how much tobacco are you consuming every day he's like I don't know like you're like you know there's a correlation right to the thing that you narrowly beat and what you're doing every day yeah it's yeah before we continue I've tried pretty much every greens drink that I could find trying to work out which one one was best. And I came across AG1 and have stuck it, stuck it, stuck with it for years, because it's literally the best.
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That's drinkag1.com slash modern wisdom. Have you ever seen the Midwit meme? Do you know what that is? Oh, dude.
So imagine a bell curve. It's an IQ bell curve.
And on the left-hand side, this this sort of neanderthal looking meme guy with the heavy brow and then in the middle at the top is the sort of raging lib guy and then on the far side is the sage that's got his hood up looking like a jedi and the joke is that the guy in the left and the guy in the right always arrive at the same conclusion and the guy in the middle tries to over complicate it so we've we've spent me and george my friend have spent i'm not kidding like months talking about this he sent me another meme about it this morning it's like the most i think it's the most philosophically important meme because uh let's say it's getting in shape yeah lift weights eat protein lift weights eat protein i must ensure that my pre-digested way is consumed within 30 minute window i have to make sure that my blue blockers are put on before like it's just the guy in the middle ruins everything is over complicating things yeah and what you've got what you found is a bunch of people that are on the left and here's the thing that people don't get about the midwit mean this is we refined this over a million dinners every guy in the middle is a guy in the left trying to be the guy on the right. That's for sure.
You can't be the guy on the right. It's impossible to be the guy on the right.
The only thing you can be is the guy on the left. And some people just don't know they're the guy on the left.
Some people are aware. Precisely correct.
Precisely correct. Yes.
So there's some people who are naturally gifted with that. Now they've got some challenges too, that maybe they're going to get hit by things that they didn't quite see yeah you know it rolling the dice and having these sorts of stories where like the miraculous recovery because of this guy's it's like uh it's like inability to realize how ridiculous his goals are because he's not trying to be the guy in the right and ending up being the guy in the middle he's like i'm gonna beat this thing yeah uh but yeah you can't be the guy in the right you can only be the guy in the left so what're trying to cultivate, it's like cultivated stupidity is the best you can hope for if you're not gifted with it.
If you're not gifted with like, ah, you got the natural stupidity, congratulations. Like if you didn't have that, it's like you just need to be, okay, I'm going to default to being the simple thing, not trying to be the over complex thing, which ends up being the simple thing anyway.
But what you end up doing is just being stuck in the middle. You don't want be the loud dumb guy just be dumb and quiet basically like the nothing worse than like the most ignorant people are always like yelling about it and you're just like man you just don't you don't want to have to be like that do you ever think because another bell curve thing somebody i forgot who brought this to my attention was the idea that you know there's a the the average IQ is like a hundred.
And then you think of like people with developmental issues who are, you know, let's say technically under 70, right? It's like, yeah. And you kind of go like, oh yeah, average is it.
But then you go like, do you realize how many people are 90, 80, 75? Like, it's not a couple. It's millions and millions.
For that to be the average, like you're surrounded by a lot of noise from people that are barely putting sentences together, you know, and you can, if you stop and have enough conversations, you'll figure it out. Like there's a lot of nonsense that you should ignore and they have a voice too.
And the best thing you can do is tune them out. Like seriously, there's like, yeah, I mean, you might not be on the far other side of that equation where you're, you're not 140 or something but if you're even just lucky enough to be blessed with the average or slightly around there there's a lot of people you should not be listening to there's a really interesting stat that guys in high school who have got iqs of 70 are more likely to not be virgins than guys in high school have got iqs of 130 well like stupid people only know how to fuck that is kind of a thing right i mean i've been to those countries and they're underdeveloped and that's what their whole currency is they're just like i fuck so it's not crazy to me to they yeah they have their own showering system there there's a lot of sand but dumb people if you ask a lot of chicks like who is the best fuck of your life they're gonna be like it was a dumb guy that guy was a machine didn't over complicate it he did yeah he just got in there and knew what to do and like that's his if you're dumb i mean that might be like the thing you're best at you know because it feels good it's like it's this dumb equation you're like touch this it feels good they that makes sense to them i feel like they're not they're not introspective they're not going to have well they don't get in their own head about it right they're not they're not the urologist reading his sheets no just in the moment they're just in moment and they just go.
The guy on the left is the best fuck in the world.

Who knew?

He definitely is.

It's definitely not the guy on the far right.

No.

No.

Well, yeah, I don't know.

The idea of trying to be a little bit more simplistic.

Another perfect example of this,

in Atomic Habits by James Clear,

he talks, I think it's like the head

of the Chinese weightlifting team. And they're super advanced.
They're getting these kids from like five years old, right? It's a religion, weightlifting in China. And he asked, what is the difference between the guys who are world champions and the rest of the elite? And he said, the guys that are world champions are prepared to come in and do the boring things without complaining and realizing that it's not supposed to be there it's like oh okay so if you have this cultivated stupidity where you can say look this is gonna suck and i shouldn't rail against the fact that it sucks um matt fraser who won the crossfit games five six times in a row uh he did a an engineering.
And there's a story in Chasing Excellence by Ben Bergeron where he says, he would wrote, memorize his entire engineering textbook page for page. And if he got one word wrong, he'd go back to the start and do it again.
So this guy, basically, very, very smart, very, very driven. But then he had to have this cultivated stupidity thing.

If you're going to go and do monostructural work on a rowing machine or a ski erg or an air runner or whatever,

you need to go in and go, this is going to be 90 minutes at 140 BPM.

It's the zone 2-y bore.

It's the most boring thing.

It's not even going to give me the satisfaction of feeling like I've worked.

Yeah, yeah. Like I've got to just sit but i know i'm in i know that it's going to help my steady state kind of uh you know conditioning improve go slow to go fast and so like it's kind of back to the thing though that like those elite athletes are either so smart that they know to be the guy in the left yeah or they are the guy in the left who just goes show up and do it that's it feels good the fucking midwit meme is undefeated but i mean that's why i have a i find it interesting when sports stars get criticized for boring or basic post-match interviews i do too i like it's uh what did you expect yeah and also we didn't he didn't sign up to be a great interview you know he or she like they that that's not part of that you're making that you're putting that on them that they have to be fantastic and charismatic because you're using your own barometer for what you consider to be successful as a non-elite athlete yeah this person is just is just fucking hitting forehands and backhands.
That's what they're supposed to be good at. Lift weights, hit ball.
That's it. And like, they did it well.
So like, whatever comes after that is like, you know, you're projecting onto the, oh, I can't believe that they said this or they had an attitude. Why? Or that they didn't give like an eloquent answer.
Like this is supposed to be a philosopher. It's like, it's a fucking Neanderthal half the time.
For every Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers, there's like 200 guys on the left. Like someone that's, I've thought really deeply about this.
I understand exactly what it means to me, et cetera, et cetera. Tell you one sport that actually feels like that's not the case where everybody is the guy on the right, Formula One.
I don't see many people, many of the drivers in Formula One. Dean, is anybody in Formula One, is Dean here? Anyone in Formula One, the guy on the left? Is there any like Neanderthal, super simple, like drive car fast to go sideways people danny ricardo maybe but he's more like the party guy on the left he's like the guy in the left but in a party hat uh but you know what i mean yeah if you like danny is though he's a pretty nuanced thinker like he has this he has this persona of like because he is like fun but then you sit with him and you talk and you realize, yeah, these guys are all pretty.

Oh, fuck, you went to that party?

That's where you met Zach?

At that party, right?

When you had some F1 party?

Was that not something to do with Danny Ricardo?

Was it last year or the year before?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'd met Danny in Australia at his place.

And then when he had his party,

that's right, Zach was at that thing here. And everyone accused him of being uh pedro pascal from wish that's right on instagram i mean he looks a lot like fucking pedro pascal he still does it's not a bad thing man he's got a good thing going on um i thought the new hair was for a new part i was like what are you what are you in yep um no but you're right those guys are they're pretty bright they're pretty bright guys um maybe there's some correlation between high performance driving and you can't be a box of rocks i just there's certain things that are so technical yeah i would imagine for instance golf i don't know golf but i would imagine that it's probably pretty difficult

to be a golfer and also be the guy on the left because a high level one yeah yeah because

and most of the well i guess there's other factors most of the time when you

see these most pga people had a certain upbringing they're usually well educated you know that sport

is usually associated with a certain socioeconomic level. I mean, it obviously is people who have started elsewhere, but for the most part, you find it in well-to-do, you know, environments and people who have a certain level of education.
But you're right. There's, there's not a lot of, I don't know, like, back nine.
I've thought this through really carefully.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, that's the difference.

If you were to go, I'm going to, again, I'm going to NASCAR at Kota in a couple of weeks' time.

So please don't take this the wrong way.

I don't imagine that the NASCAR drivers have quite the same mentality that the Formula One drivers do.

I imagine that you could get some more guys on the left in NASCAR,

despite the fact that it's probably a very similar sort of sport.

Yes, that's 100% true, for sure.

Yeah, the Formula One guys, for the most part, are more sophisticated.

But also, there's definitely some really bright people who've done the NASCAR,

and then there's some people who just go like... Foot down.
Foot down. Hold on, baby.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. That's definitely true.
And then I think you find more guys on the left if you're talking about violent sports too, right? So like. I mean, no one's going to Nate Diaz for like his sort of deep philosophical insights about stuff.
But holy fuck. Yeah.
He's going and there's that you know i've heard these stories about his and his brothers and like they do triathlons and sort of this endurance racing thing their ability to put their head down i don't like that's one that i you know you always you're drawn to do things that you naturally have some skill at right or it feels good to do and then we you naturally you reject things where you're like oh this doesn't i don't i'm not good at this and i don't like this like with sport right like you just always are like doing the things you have some skill at and you're like i don't like this other thing these fucking ultra marathon people like part of it i realize is that like it's just not in me and i'm i don't even understand this mental aspect i've talked to a few i'm just like i don't understand how you're doing this 150 mile horrible idea like how but like that just speaks to like it's again i feel like you want to be the guy on the left for that. You don't want to have as much awareness.
There's certain sports where it's, it's a real competitive advantage. There's this kid called Ned Brockman out of Australia.
So I, when I did my tour over there, I had him on the show. He ran a thousand kilometers or a thousand miles around a track.
And it took him just over a week and he like his shins were just torn apart and he's got shaved on top like the classic aussie like real aussie mullet not one of not one of these trendy wanky austin things you know where there's like a bit of hair up top to make it balanced yeah it's like like Von's Theo Von, basically. And he did that.

He ran across Australia.

He tried to break the record

for running across Australia.

And you speak to him in particular.

And you're like,

I was trying to find

the Goggins ancestral trauma void

inside of him.

Sure.

I'm like,

oh, you're just doing this

because you like the thrill of it.

Like you're just doing this because run far, feel of it. You're just doing this because run far,

feel good.

I wonder

how people can kind of get

out of their own head. So a lot of the different things

that we've touched on to do with the self

loathing, the

criticism, that internal voice,

all of those things are putting

limits on your self-belief

and your capacity and making you think, well, maybe you can't do that maybe you shouldn't do that or maybe in the pursuit of even doing that you should hate yourself a little bit more and i'm like okay how can we i want to work out how to cultivate how people that are uh intrinsic overthinkers can create a little bit more cultivated stupidity i think that would be like i don't know hit hit everyone on the head fucking microdose of mushrooms smoke weed on the i don't know no we all i mean i think we we all have this thing where we we can overthink you can make like i remember talking to someone about like it for instance production when you go i'm going to shoot something you can always find reasons to not do the thing well this is just is just going to be, I mean, it's going to be a night shoot or it's going to cost this, or I don't know if we're going to get the right sound person. And I don't, the makeup is not going to, like, you can just find reasons to not do things.
I guess it goes back for me to just, whether you're under thinking, overthinking, just take action in any, you know what know i mean so like overthinking that production thing is something that happens to so many people like i'm using the example of production but this just happens for like whatever thing they want to career change yeah career change or like even something pleasurable yeah talk to the girl go on a trip we're gonna go skiing and like, you know, I don't know if I have the goggles and I have to go get them. Like, dude, like we, we talk ourselves out of a lot of things, whether it's like production, pleasure.
It's just, it's honestly, all these things are just like, it's life. It's like, it's, it's being in the game.
Like people, you want to be in the game, right? Whether it's like it's it's being in the game like people you want

to be in the game right whether it's like in work or in in your own love life or whatever you don't want to be on the side you don't want to be not to like pile on but you don't want to be one of the lonely people and those people there's a lot of reasons where someone could end up in that situation, but one of them

is definitely they're talking themselves out of things, talking themselves out of engaging. Yeah, that's so interesting.
Well, there's a vicious spiral. You know, you sort of touched on it earlier on that when you've got good habits, they feed you good habits, and then you believe in yourself more.
But the same thing happens in reverse. Yes.
And it's such a...

I understand why people on the internet rail against anybody that appears to... believe in yourself more.
But the same thing happens in reverse. Yes.
And it's such a...

I understand why people on the internet rail against anybody that appears

to have had runaway success.

Because they go,

if you're not that,

if you're using the same dynamic,

but in reverse,

which is you've got runaway failure,

that fucking sucks.

And I've been there.

I've been in the...

I just continue... I reliably facepl plant every single thing that I try to do from the smallest to the biggest.
And I need to use the, I don't know how to do it, but I need to like rip this 10 ton gorilla off the floor, attach to a barbell. I need to like find a way to reverse this momentum.
And then when you're on the other side of it, you almost have this sense of survivor guilt. Retrospect, you're like, oh, holy fuck.
This is me feeling the win that that was the loss of. And I had this conversation with this guy, William von Hippel, fascinating anthropologist, evolutionary psychologist yesterday.
He was telling me about how two fundamental needs that humans have. One is autonomy and the other one is connection.
And the thing is, if you've got a hierarchy, everybody needs connection. And his belief is fundamentally, that's what everybody's after.
They want to be warm. They want to be friendly.
They want to be valued. Weird thing is, in order to be valued, autonomy allows you to build up some of the capacities.
So you need to be selfish. You need to go, if you're good at comedy, there is a degree of connection you've had to sacrifice to do that because you don't do comedy in union with your wife or in union with your friends or whatever.
You have to spend a lot of time. If you're Steph Curry and you shoot 3,500 three pointers in training, I know that you've had to sacrifice some connection in order to be able to build up that autonomy, right? And the autonomy then creates this capability.
People value the capability thing, but what they really, really want is the connection. So there's this fascinating bit of research that shows that people who are more competent are seen as colder, regardless of how friendly they are.
And people who are more incompetent are seen as more warm and friendly, regardless of how warm and friendly they are. And there's this sense that, huh, I sort of infer from someone's capabilities and whether or not they're smart or successful or whatever.
Hey, you're not very pro-social because if you're rich or you've achieved status or you've done a thing, you've lost all of this weight. Adele, you've lost all of this weight.
There's this bit in the back of our mind that kind of knows, you were selfish for a while. You had to work on you.
You had to be selfish for a while. Whereas you don't have the same in the opposite direction.
I thought that was so interesting, this sort of tension between competence and warmth and the fact that we see them as opposed to each other. Competent people are seen as cold and incompetent people are seen as warm.
That is, and as you said it, I was just nodding along because it feels like one of those things where you realize it's kind of automatic. Like it's like, you know, the test where they say that, and they use, every like psychology 101 department does this where they have the person carry the books and they drop them in front of, and they have an attractive person do it.
Everyone's like, Hey, here you go. Like it's just, it's automatic.
It's in your brain. And then people are, people are, uh, colder or, or I would say more, um, inviting and warm and wanting to be helpful to it, not to attract to people.
That's that's just like automatic like if you're in a somebody's like lost and you just go yeah but like the competency is really interesting because i've i've never actually heard it's one of those things where it's like in stand-up when somebody articulates a thing that's always been there and you go like no one's ever fucking said it but it's interesting that we have we do have yeah like you feel naturally warmer to somebody like somebody can't figure something out you i guess that's kind of like a in a way that's a good thing where you go i'm let me embrace this like help you want you want to help the person who is seemingly incompetent at least to a degree right yeah yeah something well sometimes but then there's a there's a point of frustration with that god damn it um but the more interesting thing is is the other side of it the fact that you would have a perception that a highly competent person is just cold yeah well the other you know you trump's of maybe an interesting example around it. You could argue about his level of competence, but he's not stupid.
And I wonder whether a little bit of it is if somebody is really competent, there's this sense in the back of your mind where you go, are they really being themselves? Is this them? Or is this some sort of subterfuge act thing that they're putting me on right now yeah secret squirrel society me and and fugazi me whereas there's i mean i you know i look at um a bunch of different people whether it's in sport whether it's in entertainment the sort of simple lovable oaf type character yeah there is this sense of warmth to them because you go, hey, he might make some errors, but he owns those errors. And they're from the heart.
They're errors that are kind of like a natural outgrowth. They're not manipulative.
They're not being done for some particular reason. Which speaks to fear, though, right? Because what the thing is, is you're less scared of that oath.
You're more scared of the very intelligent person. It's always been this way.
Somebody who's like highly intelligent, part of your brain just goes, what's this person capable of doing to me? That's really at the root of what you're feeling. You're feeling that this highly intelligent person is either going to be,

is going to want to like pull something over on you.

They're going to get you to do something you didn't want to do.

I'm going to use this information against me.

Yeah.

What should I tell them?

That's exactly what your brain's doing is it's like,

it's protecting itself.

The oaf,

the lovable oaf,

you don't have to worry about that.

Your guard goes down completely.

You go,

this is like a puppy,

you know,

like there's, there's nothing going on behind this person's eyes that i can't pick up

on this person just wants to whatever they say is what they want and so like that's the thing is that

we're just kind of protecting ourselves with the highly competent person well you know i guess one

of the interesting areas of this is lots of people that listen to podcasts have the end

And I'll see you next time. competent person.
Well, you know, I guess one of the interesting areas of this is lots of people that listen to podcasts. They're the endemic overthinkers.
They're the people that are trying to learn more about the world and they're spending time doing that. Even now, as it seems like the podcast election and everything, it's like, I think only about 50% of Americans listen to a podcast once a month.
And then you've got the power users that listen to the multiple hours per day. But you think, okay, so you're probably- Do you listen to podcasts? I do.
You do? I do, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's changed.
My listening habits have changed a lot since doing the show. And I think in order to kind of be fresh, there's an amount of exposure that you need to limit yourself to.
Yeah. Or else you end up being too heavily influenced.

I imagine that watching other comics is probably like this as well.

Yeah.

You really just want to like, I mean, the thing is I get so much anxiety watching.

This sounds like bad, but like just watching somebody not. I only want to watch really good comics in person.

So like if somebody is really good, I want to watch that.

If they're not, I don't want to watch.

Why?

It's just, I think you're feeling, you know, all those things, the feelings of trying to figure it out and the insecurities and like, and also there's tired bits and like, there's, you know, like you're watching a seven year guy. You're like, this is like the best version of this is not great anyway.
So you don't want to, it's a seven year guy. Like a guy who's been doing it just like, he's still in like this development phase.
And so you just go like, it just makes me, I just don't want to be around it. I want to watch like high level people.
I want to watch because it's, it's really good. It is inspiring.
It makes you go like, fuck, like, ah, shit, I need to, I need to write more. Like those are the people I want to watch, which I mean, that's my own thing, right? Like, but I also know a lot lot of people like that like i can't stand in the back of the room and just watch a like person after person go up who's like fledgling and trying to figure it out that's kill tony that is what kill tony is for a kill tony is well but you've got a release valve the difference with that is you've got a pressure release valve.
True. Uh, so I wonder the only,

uh, totally bro science thing that's pulling it out of my ass.

Um,

this has to be the same.

I would guess if you to what,

if you were a musician watching a musician,

not perform particularly well on stage,

I continually miss notes and do it a bit.

In fact,

I know that this is the case.

I know that this is the case firsthand from being in Jamaica recently.

Uh,

I wonder whether there's a bit of it where you're starting to tune your own nervous system to like this sensation that you're working really, really, really hard to avoid. You're watching this person do the thing that you do and going, I'm feeling PTSD.
Yeah, it is. There's definitely PTSD.
And I'm bringing it back into me. I've worked really hard to get rid of that.
I don't want that in my world. Exactly.
No, that's definitely happening. It's definitely happening.
It's triggering hundreds and thousands of- Bad memories. Bad memories, yeah.
And you just are like, and you can just see, all sudden you, you see that these micro movements of like, oh, I see that discomfort. I see where this is going.
I know what this taught, like, this is just, I, I, this is bad. I want to leave.
So I want to leave, literally leave the room. And then if you tell me like somebody's on stage who you go, this person's really good.
I, yeah, I want to watch that. That feels good.
It actually relaxes me. Likees me like i feel i feel how well it could go yes yeah it relaxes me i wonder what the i wonder what the sort of common lesson is there or what the sort of rule is there to try and spend time watching people but you're but you're right on kill tony though in that um you know in those people are doing like a minute and that anxiety in me can build high in that minute.
I mean, I've sat up there where I'm like, and then you just fucking waiting for that cat to meow. And you're like, oh, thank God.
Like just, yeah, there's a very uncomfortable feeling. People, we don't all react to it the same way, I think though, but for a comedian who's done it, yeah, you start to feel what they're feeling yeah yeah it's such an such an emotional area yeah i i really do think that the that cultivated stupidity thing and trying to trying to simplify down trying to not to not not hold yourself to too high standards but just realize that the outcome that you're trying to achieve only really depends on the actions that you're going to take.
And all of this fuckery that you've got going in, all of the stories that you tell yourself, all of the ruminating, all of the fear of fear of the conversation, all of the concern about whether should I be assertive, but then what are they going to say? So I had this really lovely question on a Q&A last week that said, I know that I deserve more, but I'm really terrified to ask.. I didn't specify what the situation was.
Maybe something at work, maybe something in a relationship, maybe something with family or whatever. I know that I deserve more, but I'm really scared of asking for it.
It's like, what an odd, but totally relatable situation to be in. It's like, I know that this is something that I'm allowed, that I can have, that I should have, and they probably know too.
And I'm still in my head about all of this. The same thing goes for your pursuits, your professional life, your personal life, all of that stuff.
Yeah, it's an extremely universal question, right? And I mean, my immediate thought is like, I can't help but think about like actually in entertainment, like in what I i do is that you come into it feeling like that you're like i want these things and then you have representation but you view representation as like mom and dad which is not how you're supposed to do it how so because you're young and you go like can i is it Is it okay? Would you approve of me? Do you think I can? And then it cultivates this relationship. A lot of young actors and comedians have this kind of twisted relationship with their first reps, right? Which is why a lot of times people hit the next phase in their life and they change if they can because they need they need a relationship that's more equal as opposed to like this weird power yeah that's not supposed to really be there because it's like with the woman you go like but i want but i don't feel like I should say to that person.
It's like there's certain people you just feel like you can't say the thing to, which is fine. I think that's a normal thing.
You need to then switch the person that you're talking to that you can speak like that to. And that's what happens a lot in our field, I would say.
Like that people want to ask for things and they're scared to. I was like, well, then you need to change who you're asking.
I mean, obviously you need to get to the point where you feel like you can ask for these things, but sometimes you just don't feel like you can say certain things to certain people. What have you learned about human psychology through this recent obsession with true crime?

Mine? Recent? I mean, 40 years?

Vestigial. Long time.

I mean, I just feel like crime and behaviors of criminals is a... I don't understand how somebody is not fascinated by how other human beings can act.
I think there's something about crime in and of itself that is so accessible that that's part of, in other words, you can go into the bank and rob it. You've gone in there but you're you you you i'm fascinated by the fact that somebody does that right like i was just there i'm in line i see what they're seeing but like the fact that they do that is everyone's felt rage everyone's like i could kill this fucking whatever.
Drive on the road.

Yeah, the salesperson driver or whatever. But you just don't.
And then the rage thing, I guess everybody understands how you could trip over rage. But then when you realize that some people are calculated and they are getting their thrill out of doing that, Um, it's just a fascinating aspect of,

I think the human experience that there's somebody that's the same,

the reason I have fascination with dictators and how they can,

you know,

you,

you see certain,

um,

similarities between people that commit violent crimes and certain people that

are,

uh, super highly malignant narcissists that run, uh, a country. Um, but yeah, it's just like a study for me.
It's like the study in, in how somebody becomes that is what's fascinating. So like you do see parallels sometimes, and then sometimes you don't.
And so in other words, like, you know, there's neglect, there's abuse, there's trauma, and a lot of people that commit horrible acts of violence, but sometimes there isn't. And I mean, I guess for me, I don't know.
It's like, I have always had that curiosity about those stories because I like the story. I like learning about what somebody did.
And I really love learning about how somebody gets caught. I mean, those, those are like, you know, there's a whole genre of, uh, books and films just about this, these topics, obviously.
And, um, like this reminds me of my wife's like, I can't believe you're watching this. I'm like, you think they made this for me? You think there's one guy watching this? This is the fucking number one show right now.
These are fascinating stories, but I think the reason they're fascinating is because it's right there. You know what I mean? You're here and you're like,'s someone who's just like dialed two degrees this way and they're doing this.
So much of them is so similar and the behavior is so different. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
And then, I mean, like, yes. I mean, some of it is that you, I think you hear some of these stories, you feel fear or you feel a rush or, you know, sometimes, I mean, look, there's even stories that repel you.
Like there's, there's a variety of, like I, I, there's stories that I don't even, I got to start learning about. I don't want to learn anymore about this.
It just depends on the actual story, but yeah, I do. I can, I can deeply house a true crime story.
Yeah. I like documentaries i like the the the limited series on all these things i watch a lot of them yeah i had a marissa harrison on she's the world expert in female serial killers she said a new book out called uh just as deadly and um only one in six serial killers are women but because of the ways that they kill it's way less newsworthy so a lot of this are nurses looking after babies and infants carers looking after old people or uh disabled people people that have got mental disorders stuff like that um some of them are what they called uh angel of death mercy mercy killing type things but they, but they feel like that's gone askew.
Because if you keep doing it over and over, it's actually for the thrill. The methods are totally different as well, that a lot of the time it's poison, it's sort of surreptitious ways.
It's not like, and that makes it way less newsworthy as well. If there's like an ax and a load of blood everywhere, that's a pretty big story.
Oh my God, yeah. You know, another infant dies in a ventilator or something.
It's like, yeah, we're not really too know. But yeah, I know exactly what you mean, this sense that this person's really similar to me and yet their outcomes in life have been really different to me and the way that they behave has been so different to me.
Why? it about that why and how how how does it get here like what's the story and then how how did they move from this to that i mean it's like why i like you know people always talk about like these the worst dictators as like monsters and then you just kind of get used to that term but you're like yeah but they're not you know i mean like sure their acts are what they did was horrible you just remember that this no it's just like another dude like he's just a guy and he was capable of this and that's i want to i want to get like to the real story of how this person why yeah there's a a great example that Sam Harris uses about Udayi Hussein, Saddam Hussein's son, goes on to be a pretty bad guy. Yeah, kind of a knucklehead.
But you say, okay, so imagine that you're three-year-old Udayi Hussein and you're maybe squashing bugs in the backyard, but you've grown up in this sort of crazy honor culture. You've got the genetics of a literal fucking war criminal.
You've got this sort of very odd reinforcement mechanism because everybody's bowing down to you and your family and no one's telling you that you can't do anything. And you're watching your dad and do all of these things.
And maybe there's a, I don't know, harem or whatever the fuck. You go, okay, now you're seven years old and you're bullying the kids in the schoolyard now you're 15 years old you got like at what point does that person kind of become the architect of themselves you go well i don't really know but it's an interesting question to think like from the very moment from before the moment you were born from the moment that you were conceived your behavior was being shaped in this way and then this interaction between the raw materials that you were made of and the environment that you were put in, especially given that the environment you're put in is usually the same one that created the materials.
So there's this sort of, you know, two times boost multiplier effect thing going on because you've got the aggressive genes and you're raised in an aggressive household, which means, oh, that's the way that I deal with my anger or whatever it might be. i've got the suppress the emotions down gene and i saw my dad always suppress the emotions down so i thought i never need to assert myself you're gonna do it i mean he and his brother uday and uh forget his brother's name but you know they would like they would pull people out of traffic like if you if you like honked at them baghdad they just rip you out of car, fucking either kill you or just beat you, throw you in a trunk.
They ran around that place like it was all theirs because it was. They would fuck people up, did whatever they want.
So yeah, if you're born into that environment and you have like anything you want to do is signed off on like there's there is no accountability it's not gonna it's not gonna create this this loving spirit that you know i mean like it's it's gonna you expect him to yeah it's gonna bring out the worst in you yeah he those guys i don't think they ever had a really a chance with being born into that in there with their father being who he was there was never a chance those guys were going to be good chill dudes who have you been fascinated by mostly in true crime recently um let's see what did I most recently watch I mean I'm listening that true, the real dictators podcast. I'm learning about Varela right now.
One of the Argentine dictators or generals that be kind of became a dictator. and then I've been watching I mean I watched a bunch of the series

like the thing that was fascinating to me about the

I was saying this to

I had Susan Hendendrix on the cnn crime reporter is we were discussing how like when you watch the documentaries now about like famous cases that you grew up with part of your brain goes yeah i already know that story and then you watch these and, I don't remember, A, any of this. Or B, I didn't even have any idea about any of these details.
Nothing. Like, I remember when I watched the Lacey Peterson one, the Scott Peterson one.
I just had like, I was like, oh, yeah. I mean, I remember like vaguely this detail or like the Menendez brothers.
I was like, yeah, they shot their parents. I didn't have any recollection about the love, like the abuse that they went allegedly through at the hands of their father.
I had no recollection about that. I really didn't know the fact that like their father was so loathed by everybody he had ever interacted with that they couldn't even provide a character witness at the trial for him to speak on his behalf.
On a guy that was murdered, who had seemingly relationships with people he had worked with, not one person would be like, yeah, this was was a good guy like details like that that really start to shape the story in your mind a little differently um i had forgotten i could not believe because they had the interrogation footage of scott peterson just how crazy cold that guy was and how casual he was like, yeah,

this is like the,

the day they pull him in and she's missing.

He's like,

I don't know.

I went fishing and like came back.

The dog was barking and I hope you find her.

And you're like,

that's,

you're like,

wow.

Cause it's,

what's interesting to me in that story is that the person is sure,

cold enough and calculated enough to do this but they're so removed from how they should be behaving in that situation you're like oh you can't even like he couldn't even either lack the awareness or couldn't even pretend to be somebody well i always think about that i mean everybody has imagined how am i going to behave what am i going to do yeah and your nervous system is just on fucking fire yeah like it's just i would love i mean this would obviously never happen but i would love for uh huberman or someone to get in and tap their cortisol and their adrenaline you see what's what is going on under the hood because that would yeah everything all you're hearing is just this ringing in your ears you've had the same thoughts over and over and over again you're watching you're watching the interrogator seeing what they're saying thinking what should i say here you're four steps removed from being in the room yeah you know you're thinking about how you should act based on what you know that the interrogator thinks about what you should be doing if you were the person that did that there's too many hoops you're going through. So it's...
But this is the other thing where, you know the Madeleine McCann case? Yeah. Yeah, so missing girl, three-year-old girl, I think from Portugal in the 90s, British girl who was there on holiday.
And one of the criticisms that her parents had, one of the criticisms lodged against her parents was that on the press tour, they didn't seem like they were behaving like grieving parents were. And you go, so I get that.
And in some situations, that might be an indication of guilt. But also, what does a grieving parent that's faced with an entire press corps behave? What is normal in that situation? Same Jean Benet criticism.
And it really made me think about, you watch american nightmare no so this is one of the most is that the one next door no that was that was murder next door i saw that one yeah that's a different one um or into the fire that one's fucking that's really crazy but american nightmare the most fascinating aspect of the story to me which i don't know how to tell it without like giving too much but like the most fascinating aspect is that on episode one this guy tells in he's telling you that as the interviewer but they go to the interrogation footage he's telling the police of what just happened which is that he was with his girlfriend and somebody came in and tied them up, gave them like something to drink. I have seen this.
I have seen this. Yes, yes, yes.
And kidnaps her. Right.
And you're watching this and you're like, this guy is full of shit. Like something is off though.
He is not speaking to the police in the way that he should, that he should. His emotions are not reading the way that I know they should.
The second episode begins and they're talking to the woman and she's telling, you're seeing her in the interrogation and you're still like, yeah, this is not, this is not. And then when you get through the story, you're like, oh, they were both telling the truth.
And I'm sorry, I just ruined it for everybody. But that was like the real, I was like, that was the thing that threw me the most.
It was like, no, I know how you're supposed to behave in a truthful way. And this is not that.
So this is not truthful. And then you're like, wait a minute wait a minute this was truthful and that to me was like the most i still couldn't get over it the way that he was talking about what had just happened i was like i understood actually why the police were like this is it's you dude yeah what the fuck and the same thing with the girl they're like well she's full of shit this is's like the party.
And they seem like they're seemingly normal. Like they're nice people.
At least they can come across this way when you see them like in the moment now telling the story. But you're like, the fuck was going on? And maybe it's what's going on is what you were saying is that their systems were so far in their head.
So there's this really interesting idea called the Keynesian beauty contest.

So in a Keynesian beauty contest,

you're not asked to pick which is the most beautiful model

to imaginary beauty contest.

You're not asked to pick out of 10,

which you think is the most beautiful.

You're asked to pick

which you think the other judges will pick

as the most beautiful model.

Oh, yeah.

So rather than choosing your own opinion,

you're trying to outsource

this sort of fake consensus using theory of mind to all of the other people that are in the room and i always think

about that keynesian beauty contest thing in situations like this because there will be a

sense in the back of these people's minds except for the person that's so stricken and sort of

taken by their emotions that they all of that second third fourth order processing is just

like fucked off out of the room but there will be people that are like i bet they think it's me

how can i make sure that they don't think it's me god i'm so sad that this thing happened i'm

such a that they, all of that second, third, fourth order processing is just like fucked off out of the room. But there will be people that are like, I bet they think it's me.
How can I make sure that they don't think it's me? God, I'm so sad that this thing happened. I'm so traumatized from this thing.
They think it's me. It's like just bouncing around.
You go, okay. What's the, how do you get yourself? You're trying to be the normal, both guilty and innocent.
I'm trying to be the version of me that I think they would want to see right if i wasn't guilty and by doing that i'm getting in the way of being the unencumbered version it's the same as watching the um stand-up person on stage it's like i'm trying to be a stand-up comic that isn't nervous and isn't bumbling through his lines exactly therefore i am so i don't want to watch it yeah yeah you're right you go i just whatever that person is doing is not why i want to watch the person who feels control and and and is like you know confident whatever like the at ease yeah at ease i want to see that and it's true what's funny is that like you with the like the scott peterson example you automatically go right but this person jumping through hoops because they're lying and they want you to not know that they're lying with the other one what's so interesting is that he's telling the truth but he's probably like i hope you believe that i'm telling you and i don't know how to because you what you do is you think about times where you realize someone has thought are you telling you and you're trying to convey no i am i'm telling you what really happened and you can see doubt in their face like you can see so you lean into this weird there's a fascinating insight around guilt so uh this fucking broke my brain when i realized this our level of guilt is directly proportional to the likelihood that we think that we're going to get caught so if you've ever noticed that you do a small indiscretion that you know that no one will find out about you're way less guilty about it than if you do a larger indiscretion that you think you're going to get caught for. So it's like an early warning system that like maybe you should behave in a slightly different way or maybe you should own up to this before you get found out.
But if you're like, no one's around, it's late at night, you toss a Coke can out of the window. It's like, I don't feel that guilty.
You toss a Coke can in front of a family that's walking past and the stroller's about to roll over the top of it. You're like, holy fuck.
Like they know that the- It's going to sit with you. Yeah.
Yeah. So guilt being in proximity to your likelihood of being caught is this early warning signal.
I always think about that. Is that like a scientifically studied thing? It's a posited theory.
I mean, you could observe it, but evolutionary psychology suggests that this would be one of the mechanisms by which it makes a lot of sense i mean we just see it in ourselves right you can observe it within yourself it doesn't necessarily need to be a law it's just something that you can notice but yeah the i always i always think about like going back to times when i felt really really guilty i'm like yeah i i was pretty sure that someone was going to find out about the thing that i did yeah that makes so much sense and i want but like people who commit these some of these heinous crimes you know they're um they're not going to feel guilt one way or the other but it's interesting that like maybe somebody who doesn't have that personality disorder that guilt shows itself if they start to feel the likelihood that they're going to get caught.

Well, think about what we were saying earlier on that the lovable oaf type thing feels less

threatening to us.

In a way, I wonder whether the person who makes killings out of rage feels less threatening

to us than the cold calculated killer who's detached from it. If they're well if they're not in rage if i don't enrage them i'm sweet also we all we all can relate we've all been right we've all been enraged so that's a big factor there is very few of us relatable have been dexter yeah with the scalpel and you know yeah if when somebody when you hear about somebody who emotionally has zero emotion about going in in and tying up and cutting somebody open, you're not like, yeah, I've been there, man.

It's a totally different thing.

So that person, I think, is definitely the more terrifying one.

Fuck yeah.

What have you got coming up next?

What can people expect from you?

Well, I'm on tour.

So I've been on tour, and it will continue through the rest of this year. I have a series that will I don't know if I can even announce it yet.
I can, sort of. Yeah, loosely.
It's coming in the spring. Something will happen over the next few months.
You'll see something the spring i'll i'll shoot something else later this year and i'll tell you about it later are you part of the cia now are you part of trump's cabinet you know what's so funny is like they always have these like don't say a thing and then you're like okay and then when you do you're like nobody fucking cares dude. Like, yeah, but yeah.
Stuff is coming soon.

Stuff is coming soon and more stuff will come later.

And I also have a few other stuffs that I'll do later in the year.

Dude, what a sign off.

It was awesome to meet you.

I'm looking forward to bringing you back on.

Thanks so much.

Thanks for having me, man.

Appreciate you.