Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon

Hey weirdos, it's Ash here, ready to share a little secret. Have you heard of Wondery Plus? With ad-free episodes and one-week early access, it's like having an all-access pass to our light-hearted nightmare.
So come join us on the dark side and try Wondery Plus today. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
You're listening to a Morbid Network podcast. from products to content to time, all in one place, all on your terms.
Introducing Design Intelligence from Squarespace, combining two decades of industry-leading design expertise with cutting-edge AI technology to unlock your strongest creative potential. Design Intelligence empowers anyone to build a beautiful, more personalized website tailored to their unique needs and craft a bespoke digital identity to use across one's entire online presence.
Connect major social and multimedia accounts to your website in a few clicks as icons, direct links, or embedded feeds. Build visitor trust while updating content only where you need it, extending your brand's footprint.
Sellers can also sync their product catalog directly with Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, and Google to reach more customers and reduce the steps for a purchase. Head to squarespace.com for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, go to www.squarespace.com slash morbid to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.
Crystal clear waters, white sandy beaches, tropical drinks with little umbrellas. Stress doesn't exist here, but it could back at home where an undetected water leak can turn into costly water damage.

But with Moen Flow, you can enjoy your vacation with no worries.

It detects leaks and stops your water main automatically from anywhere.

So the only thing on your mind is having nothing on your mind. Moen.
Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash.
I'm Elena. And I'm Andrew.
And this is a special episode of Morbid, everybody. It's special.
We have a guest. We do.
Yay. Andrew McMahon on the show.
You might know him from one of his several bands. We've got something corporate, Jack's Mannequin, or Andrew McMahon in the Wilderness.
That's me. Welcome.
Yeah, I'm glad to be here. You're all of those.
Thanks for having me. Yeah, of course.
Thanks for coming. Thanks for being in the studio.
It's like such a cool place to be. I'm honored.
So are we. So getting into the questions, I did read that you are somewhat of a child prodigy when it came to the piano.
What drew you to the piano so young? I mean, it's going to get heavy really quick. We had like a loss in our family.
My uncle passed away. And right around that same time, I had a friend's dad teach me how to play a Jerry Lee Lewis song on the piano.
And I'd never, I mean, I had piano lessons a little bit as a kid, but I took the chord that he taught me and all of a sudden just started writing songs. And that was kind of how I processed my grief from losing my uncle.
And that was it for me. I was like, this is the thing.

You know, like writing songs became my whole, like I would come home from school and I would just sit at the piano until I was told I had to go to sleep or do something for school or whatever.

I love that.

And it's been that way ever since. That's when you know it's meant to be.
When it's something that like heals apart, you know? Yeah, exactly. I just started trying to learn.
I got like a keyboard. It's hard.
Yeah. I mean, I think when you're nine, it's like a whole other, right? Everything is so much easier.
Yeah, you have that whole sort of neuroplasticity or whatever. And I really liked it, right? So it wasn't like I didn't start going to piano lessons until like maybe a year or two after that.
And so for me, it was just like constant discovery. And like you said, it was like it was a way to process my world, you know? So I just I think I blew past the it's hard part until I got into like having to study classical music.
And then it like, this sucks. Yeah, this is hard.
It's like real hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I wasn't a great student, but I sort of did what I had to to learn how to navigate the piano and read and do all that stuff. But it was always just like a safe haven for me.
And it worked out. Yeah.
I think. Yeah, we're all thankful for that.
It's been the only real job i've had to have my whole life which is uh which is is a really uh a huge gift i mean i'm always wondering when the bottom will drop but but uh but but yeah so far so good yeah well you've been making music since like 1998 yeah well i mean since you were a kid but officially yeah so uh something corporate which was like my sort of official second high school band we throughout my like you know junior senior of high school kind of continued to get bigger and I sort of skipped college and focused on that and miraculously we got signed when I was 18 and that was sort of the beginning of of all of it so I you know somebody corporate did really well and we we toured a ton and put out records and and then you know I've kind of hopped from like about every 10 years or so start a new project because I am restless I guess you could say and yeah it's been a journey for sure and I've had good fans who are willing to follow me through multiple name changes here we are yeah something corporate was my thing in high school like I love 16 year old Elena yeah 16 year old Elena was like at every show every single show I think that's how we connected was because I started having fans message me on Instagram. They're like, you got mentioned on the Morbid podcast.
That's so funny to think about it. The first one I was like, oh, that's cool.
And then I saw another few roll through and I was like, who are these people? I'm like, we should reach out to these women. They keep talking about us.
And it seems like they're pretty popular. And then we met at the, what was it, Roadrunner show? Yeah, we met at the Roadrunner show.
On the corporate reunion. Yep.
Thanks to Connor. Yes.
Shout out. Connor forever.
Connor's a good man. He's a very good man.
Yeah. My tour manager, he's our Gen Z holding down.
Hell yeah. Yeah.
We like to, I like to bring young bucks into the mix and bring them up. That's always been sort of a part of our mission.
And Connor rose the ranks from content to now he's tour managing. Oh, that's so.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a good representation of Gen Z.
He is. He is.
He's the representation. I hate the whole kids these days philosophy.
I really like it. To me, I feel like it's such a sign of you're not actually paying attention.
And I've had my whole perception of the Gen Z universe reshaped by Connor and his people and people we've brought into our camp. I love that.
I'm like, no, these guys are actually hard workers and super fun and very fashionable. They are.
Yeah. Very fashionable.
I'm a huge fan. You got to meet the right Gen Zs.
You do. I'm a Zillennial, so I like – She's on the cusp.
I like to say I'm a millennial because, you know, Gen Z gets a lot of hate. What's funny is like I always rejected the fact that I was a millennial because I graduated in 2000 and we didn't have like a qualification.
We were just sort of in this nether group between Gen X and whatever was coming next. And then I think by the time I was 30, then they started calling us millennials.
And I was like, I denounce this. Yeah, I don't like this qualification or designation.
I worked at Hollywood Video in high school, like RIP video stores. Guys, that's where you could rent movies.
That was where you could rent VHS tapes and also DVDs. My favorite job ever.
And I used to make, like we would be able to pick what could be on the screen. And I would make everybody play this one DVD.
And it was like Drive Thru Records. Oh yeah, I remember it well.
And I would make them play it just so we could have the something corporate performance that's amazing like over and over i had many of my friends uh were blockbuster video employees and we used to go hang out at blockbuster on the weekends because they would just you know they'd smoke weed in the back and like be you know like we're proper degenerate blockbuster employee managerial staff and and uh yes i do i miss such blockbuster vibe yeah it's a good vibe that's one thing i wish i experienced i remember blockbuster like a little bit from being like five and six yeah beyond that no i mean the truth is the new model is working better there oftentimes there were no videos available but but it was a it was a fun sort of snapshot. Just the environment.
Yeah. It's like a cozy vibe.
Going back to the music, how would you say

your... was available at Blackbusters.
Very true. But it was a fun sort of snapshot.
Just the environment. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
It's like a cozy vibe. Well, going back to the music, how would you say your relationship with music has kind of changed and evolved throughout all the years that you've been doing it? I mean, look, I think, you know, you're an author, so you know, it's like as you start by writing because it's just like a reflex and it's this exploratory thing.
And I think that the biggest shift is that you have to continue to find ways to explore and make it fresh and make it exciting. So like I've changed processes over the years, right? You know, I think when some of that like, oh, I just have to be sitting at the piano all day and like now I have a family and I spent a lot of time on the road.
So I do, you know, I do little tricks to sort of re-engage myself in the writing process.

I'll write with other people that I'm really excited about.

I try and always like surround myself with writers that are both older and younger than me.

You know, just so I can, you know, like I love having people in the room that are still in that phase of writing where they're like hyper creative and just super hungry and it keeps me hungry. So, I think that's change.
And then what you write about changes, right? So, as you get to certain stages of life and the questions are changing about what is relevant or what's important to you, you know, you have to find new ways in to discuss those things. And I feel like changing projects for me is like, has been a part of that, right? So it's like something corporate was like very much about, you know, all of the things that you encounter in like high school and coming of age.
Intense emotions. Yeah.
And it's a lot of makeups and breakups. And I think our industry, like the music business is fueled on a lot of that.
And as somebody who wants to write and perform and do this till the day I die, you know, I've had to sort of shift my thinking, you know, a lot of Jack's mannequin was, I got sick when I was in the middle of that project. So I had cancer and I was a cancer survivor.
I was like, how do you write about that? You know, and, and, and then, you know, and then sort of shifting into this Next phase, a lot of it's been about keeping my edge while maintaining a family and a life and how to look after my kid and those questions that come with fatherhood and trying to stay creative. So I think those are sort of big parts of how I shift and try and stay creative.
I love that. Because you can look back on every stage of your life and there's a song for it or an album for it, really.
Yeah, totally. And I think, too, like I've tried really hard because a lot of my fans have grown up with me.
Like rather than making the mistake, I think a lot of people do as they get older in their artistic processes or trying to sort of recreate their youth and still sing about those things. And I think it's the challenge for me is like, how do I really talk about what's relevant to me now and put that in a pop song? And that can be tricky.
But I think if you strike on something that's universal, it applies backwards and forwards. Yeah.
And, you know, I want people who've been with me for a really long time to be like, oh, he's talking to an experience that I'm having right now because we're a similar age and going through similar things in life. But also if I do it well, you know, you could be 15 and pick up that record and it will land.
You know, most of the artists I was listening to when I was 15 were much older than I was. And somehow those songs were still connecting.
Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, that's like what you just said. Like people who have listened to you have grown up with you now.
So like it's funny because when we went to the Something Corporate concert where we met, it was funny to look around and see like I was like, oh, it's a bunch of moms and dads being like just like transporting back into like something corporate days yeah but it's fun because it's like we've been able to relate to you and the music the entire way through and you can feel like the shifts but they're so smooth because like you're going like we're going into that phase so we're going to go in there together yeah so it's just been really nice really nice. Like last night we were talking about Bluey, and I was like, wow, we're just parents now together.
That's wild. You know, I think it's like a task, but I think it's a worthy one.
And I'm super reverent of the fact that there are people who I've been seeing at shows since they were high school, middle-aged kids coming out to see me. When I was not much older than them, I was 18 or 19, but it felt like a world apart, right? When you're sort of like grown and then you have like a kid in the audience.
Now, you know, now we're sort of orbiting the same life trajectories. And I really like, I want to make music for those people who have been in those rooms and I want them to have songs that they can connect to at this stage of wherever they're at.
You're killing it. Well, thank you.
I try really hard. And it trickles down because there was like three generations of us at that show because it was Elena, me, and my little cousin.
So it's like all, I started listening to you when I was like six and then still do. Because I was like, you're listening.
And my cousin's like three singing like I woke up in a car. So it does trickle down.
Yeah, well, like the shows I went to when I was, you know, the first shows I was going to, a lot of them were bands. My brothers and sisters, three of them are 10, 12 years older than I am.
And, you know, I went to see REM when I was, you know, when I was in the seventh grade or whatever. And, you know, and I became a huge Tom Petty fan and like going to those shows, seeing the young people that are picking, were picking up, you know, heartbreakers to me, to my people, my brothers and sisters ages and older, you know, in a dream world, that's really what you want.
You want to see people across generations connecting to what you do. And that's sort of the fight I'm in every day is just to sort of make sure that, you know, it spreads to as many people across generations as possible.
It works. It does.
You're doing it. My youngest is obsessed with Happy.
I love that. She was like, wait a second, he sings Happy? I was like, yep.
And she's five, so you're hitting all ranges. That's the deal, yeah.
That's what we want. Transcends.
Well, finally, to transition us into our world of morbid and macabre, you have a song with your band Something Corporate called Me and the Moon. Yes.
It's one of my favorites. It's a little more eerie and haunting.
It's not the typical style for you. So tell us a little bit about where the idea for that song came from, like how it came to be.
we put out the first something for a record and i think a lot of that music was really reflective of sort of our high school post high school journey because a lot of those songs were written in that time and that was sort of the first record we went out and toured the world with and got it noticed for and then you know by that point that I was coming back to write those songs for North,

yeah, I was just in a much different headspace. And it was like, I wanted to do something moodier.
And it was like the first time I was living in Jordan Pundit from Newfound Glory. I was living in his guest room, you know, and it was sort of the first time I'd lived away from my parents.
and so I had all this freedom just to sit in a room uh and write all day and i i mean i would be lying to say i wasn't like smoking a ton of weed at that point and and just playing the piano and just trying to find new new chords and new new chord shapes and progressions and and i i got to the this sort of piano figure that plays under that the verses of that song which I was like, this is so cool. Like, it felt like something really new for me.
And the first words that showed up were, it's a good year for a murder. That's so good.
It's such a good opening line. I remember even in that moment being like, oh, this is going to land pretty interesting.
You're like, this is different. Yeah, I'm'm like punk rock princess to let's talk about murder, you know.

But I was just in love with it.

And it sort of wrote itself, like the verses wrote itself.

And it became about this sort of idea of like a suburban mother

finally reaching her breaking point with her husband. Missing out on a show that everyone is talking about just simply is not an option for me.
I'm constantly signing up for this streaming service or that one. I have like 400 gajillion.
And then a few months later, I realized that I've still been paying for the service way after I finished the show and I actually don't watch anything else on that network. Getting Rocket Money, though, was a game changer for me.
They'll find your unwanted subscriptions and even help you cancel them so that you never have to worry about them slipping through the cracks. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps you lower your bills so you can grow your savings.
See all your subscriptions in one place and know exactly where your money is going. For ones that you don't want anymore, Rocket Money can help you cancel them.
Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $750 a year when using all of the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions today and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money.
Go to rocketmoney.com slash morbid today. That's rocketmoney.com slash morbid.
Rocketmoney.com slash morbid. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.
I have such an incredible support system around me. I'm so lucky to have a husband who supports literally everything I do.
I have a sister who is always behind my back. Actually, I have two sisters who's always behind my back in a good way, cheering me on.
Support systems are so important. Think about your favorite leaders, mentors, and idols.
They don't all have the answers, but they do know when to ask questions or seek support from their community. Therapy can be a source of support for any area in your life.
It's time to shift the focus from doing it all to knowing that we're better when we ask for help. I absolutely love therapy.
I just started doing therapy again, and it is a game changer. I always feel a million times better just having that one place to go once a week, once every other week, whatever it is, just to chat about what's going on in my life and kind of download it all and actually have a place where I can really dissect the different things that I'm going through.
BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, and it's serving over 5 million people worldwide. Build your support system with BetterHelp.
Visit betterhelp.com slash morbid today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash morbid.
And, you know, I grew up in an amazing house. And by the time I was, you know, in high school, it was like, you know, a lot of like a house full of women.
It was like my sister and my mom and me. And, you know, my mom never tried to kill my dad.
So there's none of that. But I think I could relate to the angst of that just having been you know my mom and i were super close growing up and and so it was like originally it was a courtroom drama like the chorus was like was all about what happens after i love that the the murder and then i it didn't fit right and um and me and the band were on tour in we were in amsterdam i think or something like that or no maybe yeah we were we were no we were in leeds and ended up meeting up with a couple of the drive-thru bands and went on a very uh wild sort of psychedelic journey nice and i remember i was uh following the moon all night by myself through leeds england i was like i was certain And it was calling, I was certain it was calling me.
I won't paint the details of what led me to that moment. But I remember just going like, I just want to go see where this moon is at.
And I just followed it through the streets. It was here in the moon.
Yeah, totally. Until I ended up like locked in a hotel bathroom.
I had this piece of paper and I just wrote,

it's me and the moon.

And I like.

Oh my God, stop.

That's amazing.

The handwriting was, it was like cursive and just kind of like.

Like super like.

Writing the words was actually a part of the journey.

And I woke up with that piece of paper and I ended up on a stage sound checking and I

finished the song on stage and I was like and just wrote the chorus

to the rest of the song that day and and yeah it's been one of my favorites forever and the

fact that fans followed us into that that phase was such a huge thing because I was like are they

gonna hate me for taking this hard left turn into six'8 sort of murder mystery song? It was welcome. But yeah, that song was a journey from start to finish.
And still, I think, is a high watermark for something corporate catalog. Yes, definitely.
I remember hearing that song for the first time and being like, what? I was like, excuse me? It was definitely a challenge to fans to be like, do you want to go here? But it gave me a lot of hope for the future, too. It was like, okay, cool.
I can stretch out and people will take a chance and follow us. If we'll go with you for murder, the sky's the limit.
The moon's the limit. You're good.
It's such a great song. Thank you so much.
And I think now we can go into dancing plagues. Yes.
You know. Quite the transition.
Because, you know, music, dancing. You do a lot of dancing on stage.
Yeah. I love to dance.
It's part of the whole thing. So we're going to talk about dancing plagues, and we're also going to talk about a couple of nunneries that just had some stuff going on that I thought was pretty hysteria is kind of where we're going here.
I was raised a Catholic, so I'm all for getting into the nun phase of this. So this is, we're going to start way back.
This was on Christmas Eve in 1021 CE. Oh shit, way back.
This is where it begins. So this small German town called Kolbeekt.
I looked up all these pronunciations, so don't come for me. No, you always kill the pronunciations.
I try. In a good way.
Sometimes I kill it the other way. So 18 of the town's residents gathered outside of the church and started dancing.
Just started dancing and carrying on with wild abandon. And the noise from these dancers made it impossible for the priest to deliver mass.
So he went outside and he started to reprimand the group. And they were just seeming completely oblivious to him.
Like, it wasn't like they were ignoring him. They just, like, didn't even know he was there.
Just kept going. And rather than heed the priest's words, which at that time people would heed that priest's words.

Yeah, you had to. They just continued dancing and clapping and leaping.

And they were forming what would later be documented to be called a ring dance of sin.

Oh, obsessed.

Which I kind of love.

I want in.

Right.

Where do I sign up for the ring dance of sin?

So according to the legend, the priest, who was very angry, very incensed about the interruption and disrespect, quite frankly, cursed them all to dance for the entire year. And none of them were able to regain control of their bodies until the following Christmas.
What? Wait, the priest did this? Which I didn't realize priests could curse people. So he insisted that they keep going because they had even started.
He was like, oh, you want to dance? You're going to dance until next Christmas. Yeah.
Wow. And they did.
And by the time the curse was ended, the group was exhausted and reportedly fell into a deep sleep. And a lot of them never woke up from that deep sleep.
So some of them died. So he just straight up killed some of them.
Okay, priest. Can I ask practical questions about food and yeah and bathroom none of that in fact many of these dancing plagues food bathroom breaks like sleep don't happen not they just dance through it and that's how most of them die wow like there's deaths that come out of these are they just like peeing all over themselves all over themselves? Probably.
It's probably, it's reckless. Like, whatever is happening there is a lot.
So some people lived for a year doing this? I guess so. Or they would join, I think, maybe.
Others would join. So given, you know, how old this story is, obviously I'm sure there's been some embellishments.
Yeah. But according to historian John Waller, there was nothing in the story that medieval people found hard to believe.
Like, to be quite honest. They're like, yeah, whatever.
They're like, yeah, people probably would dance themselves for a year to death. Because it was a society that was very accustomed to assigning supernatural explanations to literally anything they couldn't understand.
so the idea of such crazy behavior being the result of a curse from a holy man was like, yeah, obviously. Yeah, why not? And as he points out, plenty of sources indicate that this obscure chronicler may have embellished a real event.
So there was truth to this. Basically, the details might have been a little bit exaggerated, but that like manic and like uncontrollable dance that they were doing probably happened because it has happened.
Yeah. So this was kind of the beginning of like dancing plagues being documented.
Now, 200 years later, in a German town of Erfurt, looked it up, a similarly crazy and bizarre outbreak of dancing mania broke out in 1247. So this time, at least 200 people are said to have gathered on a bridge.
Oh. And it was over the Moselle River in Maastricht, where they danced until the bridge collapsed.
Stop it. And all of them died.
Said, rock it till the wheels fall off. They did.
And then they died. And then that was it.
Bridge collapsed. Everyone died.
That was it. And then there's, so that happened.
How long were they up there for, does it say? It doesn't say how long, but I feel like it probably wasn't that long. Because 200 people on a bridge.
I don't think the structural integrity of bridges in 1247 was like something of note. Not quite the same as 1247.
So I'm assuming they all just went down. But there is a second version of this story.
So there is like a little wiggle room. So this one, in this version of the story, the same thing happened, except everyone didn't die.
People died, but there were survivors. And people say that some of those survivors were taken to a nearby chapel.
Where they kept dancing. And this nearby chapel was dedicated to St.
Vitas, which, or Vitas, excuse me, where these people received treatment for their quote unquote mania and many of them were restored to full health. So they said they went to the specific chapel and that's what cured them.
And they never danced again. Never danced it's a flat a flash mob gone wrong gone horribly wrong and then a chapel was able to heal any of the survivors and saint vitus comes up a few times what's saint vitus the saint of that's apparently he's like that he has something to do with dance like he has something to do with this and he is able to he's gets brought up a lot because the dancing madness actually gets translated into being called saint vitus dance oh nice what is he the is he a patron saint of anything hold on let's look like wait a second i'm excited for this because he comes up a lot he's the patron saint of standing still of chilling yeah of chilling so his name is sometimes rendered guy or guido was a christian a christian martyr i know from sicily i know his surviving hagiography obviously yeah that is pure legend blah blah i don't know if he's a patron saint he's the patron saint of dance let's i think we can all agree let's go with that yeah exactly you'll take yeah it is yeah it is also led to vitus being considered the patron state of dancers and entertainers in general he is also said to protect against lightning strikes animal attacks and oversleeping that's sick of him yeah i appreciate that he does not guide me i'm oversleeping all the time he didn't help the first group that that slept until they died didn't help them now it's from this like second telling of that story that the affliction got the name Kourosmania, which is Greek and it translates to dancing madness.
And now it's more well known as Saint Vitus Dance. So he gets to be named in the affliction.
That's fun. Now, over time, the terminology would change a little bit, but the behavior would end up being called chorea, which is an actual disorder.

And it's incorrectly that, like referred to as that, because this disorder, chorea, is a disorder of the central nervous system that causes like irregular, like brief jerking moment, like movements, but it's not dancing. They meant choreo.o yeah it's just they meant choreo and then choreo is not that it's not hanging with your homies on a bridge yeah dancing until it falls down so if you ever hear somebody say it you correct them if you ever hear them saying it okay i'm sure it comes up a lot all the time it's very common it comes up on the road a lot.
So these two early examples were contained in Germany. But a similar form of hysteria that kind of had like similar, you know, symptoms to it was known as Tarantism.
Okay. And it emerged in the 13th century in Italy.
And according to Robert Bartholomew, which I am obsessed with the name Bartholomew. Same.
I love it a lot. Why isn't it used anymore? I don't know.
He said, people asleep or awake would suddenly jump up, feeling an acute pain like the sting of a bee. Some saw the spider, others did not.
But they knew that it must be from the tarantula. Like capital T, the spider? The spider.
Okay. Not a spider.
Nope. The spider.
The only spider. The only spider.
They ran out of the house into the street to the marketplace, dancing in great excitement. Soon they were joined who, like them, had been bitten, or by people who had been stung in previous years, for the disease was never quite cured.
The poison remained in the body and reactivated every year in the heat of the summer what i i love i love this is amazing i wish i wish this still happened i feel like it probably does maybe we just don't hear about it let's make it flash mobs are actually this yeah pretty much they've all been bitten they have by the spider and it happens in the heat i like that it like reactivates in the heat of the summer yeah Yeah. Like summer we're going to get crazy with it.
Like let's party. Yeah.
Makes sense. And it's called Tarantism.
And it's most often girls and young women are afflicted. Probably because they're like hysteria.
Am I right? Girls and women. I'm so random.
And that's when it got labeled hysteria when they were like, oh, girls and young women get it? Yeah. Hysteria.
Like the dancing plagues, there was no identifiable cause of the Tarantism because, like, a tarantula

bite doesn't cause this.

So, like, there's no reason for this.

But they just believed it to be, like, a mass, like, psychogenic illness, which is even

scarier.

Yeah, a little bit.

It's probably just a reaction to the times.

That's honestly... Everybody's probably bored.
In the end, that kind of is what it feels like it is. We feel depressed.
Now it's time to wild out. It's like a better version of the witch trials.
Yeah. Like a way better version.
A much better version. Way better.
Yeah. So the early instances of the dancing plagues were pretty limited in size and scope.

And they were, again, like limited to specific locations.

But then came 1374, y'all.

An outbreak of dancing mania started in a German city of Aachen, I believe it is.

And it eventually spread to other cities outside of Germany.

So it's happening.

Dancing everywhere.

Were they all happening at the same time? Was it like... Some of them were, and then some of them would start at the end of the next one, and it was just like a continuous thing.
Yeah, like a wave in a stadium. The outbreak of 1374, sometimes referred to as St.
John's Dance, began like the others. So it was like a small group forming a circle in the town square, starting to dance with each other.
But the thing that keeps happening with these is they start to dance and it's like fine. And then they get more frenzied and it just like loses all control.
And that's what they lose control of their senses. They don't care who's near them.
They are like whirling around, like looking like they're in like a state of just like ecstasy. Like it's like a rave.

Yeah.

Like a straight up rave.

I was at a show like last year.

It feels similar.

You're like, I had this.

That was it.

Some would dance for hours.

Some would dance for days at a time, not stopping.

Not stopping to eat, drink, sleep, piss, anything.

Damn.

So there's the answer.

Yeah, there we go.

And when they did finally stop, the dancers all spoke of some undeniable compulsion to dance and then they would complain of extreme oppression and groaned as if in the agonies of death what and then they would groan until they were swathed in clothes spread bound tightly around their waists what well they're i feel like they aching from dancing. Yeah.
You ever take a Zumba class? It's a lot. It is.
You know? You need one of those little rollerball things? Yeah. Just get it all out.
Yeah. Or that little machine we have that can like get a tight muscle out.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
So a short time later, the dancers' pain would subside because they would get the rollerball or do what they needed to do when they finished zumba and they remained pain-free until the next compulsion came over them and then it would keep happening like they would go through periods of time where they were fine and then they just start dancing a fool again oh no did it was there did they say they enjoyed the dancing when they were doing it or was it i think they were in like a trance so i don't think they could even remember they didn't know they just felt the pain afterwards which sucks yeah but within a few weeks that plague the saint john's dance plague had spread to liege utrecht and tongres those places those places and then further out to towns in belgium and the Netherlands. Wow.
And according to one account, they danced together ceaselessly for hours or days and in wild delirium. The dancers collapsed and fell to the ground exhausted, groaning and sighing as if in the agonies of death.
And many later claimed that they had seen, this is literally my favorite thing I've ever heard, by the way. I'm so excited.
Many of them claimed that they had seen the walls of heaven split open and that Jesus

and the Virgin Mary had appeared before them. Were they dancing? Were Jesus and Mary dancing go-to online grocery store for getting all my healthy essentials delivered, and I don't even have to leave my couch.
I don't know about you, but I want to be able to pronounce the ingredients on my grocery labels. I am currently obsessed with the Goodles mac and cheese.
The Goodles noodles are so good. They're super high protein, and I made like a Healthy Girl Hamburger Helper the night with those Goodles noodles, and I will not shut up about it.
They also have so many on-site filters that make it simple to shop by your needs, whether it's gluten-free snacks, high protein meals, or non-toxic cleaning products. I personally filtered for high protein options, you know, like Goodles, but I also stocked up on Primal Kitchen sausages.
Oh, those siete chips. I freaking love those.
They're such a time saver. Ready to make the switch? You should be.
Go to thrivemarket.com slash morbid for 30% off your first order plus a free $60 gift. That's T-H-R-I-V-E market.com slash morbid.
Thrivemarket.com slash morbid. Hey, weirdos.
I'm Mike Corey. And like you, I'm drawn to true crime, creepy history, and all things spooky.
If you particularly enjoyed Ash and Elena's coverage of the USS Indianapolis, where 900 sailors battled rough seas, sharks, dehydration, and madness in the open ocean, you need to check out my podcast, Against the Odds. We dive deep into this survival story across four full episodes, revealing details you haven't heard yet.
Each week on Against the Odds, we put you in the shoes of real survivors, from the Thai cave rescue to Somali pirate hostages to the Donner Party. These aren't just headlines.
They're incredible stories of human endurance. Follow Against the Odds on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to both Against the Odds and Morbid early and ad-free. Start your free trial in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify today.
But the walls of heaven split open during this dancing session. So you just have to dance your way into heaven.
You do. I feel like that's actually probably true.
Yeah. Yeah.
You know? Damn. It seems like a reaction to whatever they're religious.
Being oppressed by. Yeah, yeah.
They're like, okay, we have to chill. But if we just go freak out.
Hell yeah. And we can claim.
Yeah. We're seeing heaven.
It's a path. It's a religious path.
They're like, Jesus and Mary are over here. They came in.
They're like, let's go. They're joining the ring of sin, whatever it was.
It'd be fun if the priest joined in at that point. They're like, is this how we do it? Is this how we go?

That's how fun math starts.

Jesus and Mary are here, you say?

Yeah.

So for the next hundred years, people in Germany and surrounding countries would periodically

fall into these trances and manias.

A hundred years?

Yeah.

In 1491, this is literally my favorite thing ever, by the way.

In 1491, several residents of a nunnery, here we go, in the Habsburg Neverlands were overcome with the compulsion to dance. But this time, it wasn't just dancing.
So there were some that just like were getting their groove on. And then they would also be accompanied by instances of nun.
Hold on to your habits. They would climb trees and behave like cats what and they would all meow together rad i love this i hate that this wasn't on film climbing up the trees in a full habit like that's all i'm thinking of is like full nun gear just like lifting a tree i love it um also in this delirium it gets it gets racy because they would sexually proposition the priest good iconic and then it got better because the priests were like no no and they would call exorcists to be like clearly this demon's afoot and when the exorcists would come the nuns would sexually proposition the exorcists stop I'm obsessed with it I don't know why I love it so much.
Let them live. Let them live.
Yeah. And like the people in 11th century Germany, the nun's affliction was believed to be a curse, obviously, brought by Saint Vitus.
And it was apparently supposed to be in response to the supposed moral laxity and split from the church of the period so they were like now we now we've got our answer here it comes so that's what that and i guess other supernatural suspects in the case that were brought up were saint john the baptist demons as a whole of course any demon will do the hierarchy of demons and And Satan himself. Oh, shit.
Yeah.

Which apparently some of the nuns, while they were sexually propositioning the priests and the exorcists and not getting any, they were getting pushback.

They were like, well, that's fine because I have also fucked Satan.

So.

Wow. Like they were literally being like.

The nuns would say that?

Yeah.

They were literally, I don't, probably not like that.

Not exactly like that.

Different nomenclature.

Maybe.

They've had relations with the devil.

Wow.

Basically.

Yeah, so they were claiming it.

Like, let's go, girls.

When it was over, were they allowed to stay in the nunnery or were they exiled?

That's a great question.

I don't think they were exiled.

Okay.

But perhaps they were.

I feel like when you said you fucked the devil, I feel like that's your time to step out.

Skirt out, yeah.

I don't think they're going to find a new path in life. Yeah yeah i don't think you get like uh this is one strike yeah that kind of thing now in the 15th century in german this is another nunnery because this is awesome one nun started biting the others was she dancing first or she just was no dancing involved was she one of the cats? She was not one of the cat nuns.
Okay, interesting. This is a different nunnery.
So she starts biting the other nuns. And then they were all like, wow, that sucks.
Like, don't do that. And then after a while.
Direct quote. Yeah, they were like, wow.
Direct quote on the record. That sucks.
Stop doing that. And then one of them was like, well, I guess I'll just bite you back.
Which like, I get her. Yeah.
Like, if she's still biting you. Don't bite me.
Bite her back. Yeah.
And one of them was like well i guess i'll just bite you back which like i care yeah like if she's still biting you don't bite me bite her back yeah and one of them bit her back and then they all started biting each other and then they were just rapidly biting you like all of them just started biting each other biting the priests oh and then they brought the pieces this is not a sanitary time it's never a good time to bite anybody but that's bad are they still? That's the question. I feel like dancing may not have been a part of this one.
It might have just been a biting scenario, but it would be really funny to think of them dancing and biting. Get their groove on.
And every once in a while, the beat drops and they bite someone. Yeah.
So then word spread about this affliction because people were like, whoa, have you heard of this? These nuns go crazy. And the affliction started spreading.
The biting one. Yeah.
Now the biting one's going. We got a lot going on.
Apparently nunneries in Saxonburg and Brandenburg, you know, Holland, now even Rome. Whoa.
All biting each other and biting the priests. And meowing.
And meowing. There was meowing as well.
Awesome. And it only stopped, and this is literally documented, it says it only stopped because they got exhausted.
Exhausted of biting each other? They just got tired. At some point you're going to get tired.
I wonder how long. I know.
How long can you bite someone? I don't know. Write in.
More to podcast at gmail.com. Yeah, let us know.
Do an experiment. Wouldn't it be great if after this airs, these plagues begin spreading all over again? Exactly, like pops up.
We're responsible. Now, by far the most notorious of the dancing plagues occurred in Strasbourg, France in July 1518.
This is the one that a lot of people know about okay the event began

pretty innoculously it was just a single older woman just going into the streets into the city center her name was frau trofea i think is what i say it that's how i say it yeah um she's walked out and she was like let's do this and she just started dancing said let's dance let's go yeah She was David Bowie before David Bowie.

She was channeling some late Bowie.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's where David Bowie came from.

He came from. He came from a dancing plague.
A nunnery back now. Yeah, a dancing plague in a nunnery.
Canon. That is where David Bowie came from.
He came from a dancing plague. It was Frau.
So by mid-August, and she wouldn't stop, of course, because that's how he's worked. She had a plague.

By mid-August, hundreds of people had joined her in the town square.

Again, a flash mob.

All of them uncontrollable.

And like the previous ones, the dancers in Strasbourg never stopped to eat, never stopped to drink, sleep, nothing.

Not long after the mania began, quote, as many as 15 people a day dropped dead.

Oh, my God.

What a way to go out, though.

I mean.

It seemed like, I mean, there were a lot of ways you could die back then, but it seems like dancing would have been one of the better ones.

I would choose that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like real plague or dancing plague at that point.

Dance, baby.

I'm picking dancing plague.

Yeah.

And they just kept going.

So people would be dropping dead and they were still dancing. Oh, for their dead bodies? It like pause like let's get this one out nope they just danced people dropping wow yeah and unlike many of the earlier dancing plagues which were recounted a lot like they would kind of change over time like folklore this one this particular one in 1518 was very well documented like it's a real

event that is very documented it's appeared in everything from historical text news accounts church and medical documents it's like in a lot of things and according to many of these documents the women who start or the woman who started the plague was brought to a church devoted to can we guess? St. Vincent.

St. Vitus.
Oh, Vitus, my bad.

Maybe St. Vincent too, who knows.

A friend. plague was brought to a church devoted to, can we guess? St.
Vincent. St.
Vitus. Oh, Vitus, my bad.
Maybe St. Vincent too.
Mixed up my saints. Who knows? A few days after she started dancing, she was brought to a church devoted to him, and she was cured, apparently.
Well, this is while the other people are still dancing. They're still going.
They started, they're like, you started this, we're going to take care of you, but we're going to let the others go. Yeah, they're trying to chop the head off the snake and see if it all falls.
Maybe if she stops. Yeah.
Maybe if Frau stops. No.
They all just kept going. Because in the days after that, others started joining more even.
As soon as her absence was felt, they were like, we need to beef this up. Let's dance for her.
Let's get more people in here. So in order to curtail the mania, the city forbade musicians to perform publicly.
Oh, boo. Which, like, lame.
That sucks. Yeah.
Kind of a killjoy. And eventually started taking the dancers one by one to the St.
Vitus Church to get treatment. And no matter how quickly they removed the dancers off the streets to St.
Vitus' church there, they were just replaced by new dancers. People would just show up.
It's like one leaves, five more cups. Yeah, they had alternates.
See did they had to cancel the musicians because they're like this is easy for us we can just go and we already have an audience yeah let's go i know they were like we can really get big here this is our spot they're like running around the dancers being like listen to my demo like get a record deal out here now in the decades and centuries that followed this, dancing plagues continued across Europe with significant events occurring in the 16th and 17th centuries in Switzerland and Italy. And there hasn't been a really documented case of dancing mania in a lot of centuries.
But Tarantism, which is thought to be kind of similar, has been documented in Italy as recently as the 1950s. Oh, shit.
So remind me, tarantism, it isn't dancing, but it's just sort of like- It is kind of dancing. It is, okay.
Yeah, it is kind of dancing, but it's like a little different because they claim it's from a spider. Okay.
Like you get bit by a tarantula, which I didn't even know they had tarantulas in italy that was news to me i don't think i knew that either i don't know where i thought tarantulas were australia i think everything period i can attest to joshua tree oh my god they're there too there was a there was actually the last jack's mannequin record we almost named tarantula mating season because we because we that'd be great because we actually we rented a house in joshua tree during tarantula mating season and they were everywhere yeah and i don't i mean i don't care for spiders and big ones i care for less and yeah so if you ever want to go get some tarantism i recommend joshua tree around october november page that so they were were So were they like in the house? I wish I could find this video because there's a video of me and two of my bandmates running around the house screaming in like a high pitch. Yeah.
Like trying to chase a tarantula out of the house. How big? I mean, bigger than my hand.
Stop. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They're huge. Yeah.
No. I'd just start crying and never stop.
No. That's the thing.
I don't

cry easily. No, you don't.
I would start sobbing uncontrollably if I saw a tarantula. Yeah,

100%. I cry easily.
And in my house, I'd never sleep in there again. It's my understanding

they're not that, like, I don't know that the big ones are that bad. No, I don't think

they really do much. Yeah, but they don't just exist they don't look they don't look like any anything you want to spend time with it's unfortunate for them i know i feel like up close aren't they really cute like their faces their faces are kind of cute like with like a magnifying up close i never found them cute you're like me he said actually no it's not my thing yeah that's in in aust Australia, the huntsman spiders.
My TikTok has figured out that I hate them, but that I will watch a whole video about one. So it just keeps giving me huntsman spider videos.
And apparently you can hear huntsmans walking down the hall. No.
They're so big. No.
And I was like, that's all I need to know. I can't ever go to Australia.
Not for me. Ever.
I die.

And people have like house huntsman's where they're just like, oh, that's just like Leroy.

No.

House huntsman.

He just lives here.

He takes care of the bugs.

I'm like, who takes care of him though?

Like who?

He's lawless.

He's lawless.

He's lawless.

You can't like, you're like, he takes care of like the mosquitoes.

I'm like, what?

I'd rather get bit by a mosquito than live with Leroy.

Love him for that.

But like, I can't, you can't look like that.

No.

Oh, I can't.

I cannot.

Spooky.

See you next time. care of like the mosquitoes i'm like i what i'd rather get by a mosquito than love him for that but like i can't you can't look like that no oh i can't i cannot so yeah if you ever want that go to joshua tree apparently during their mating season yeah yeah um no people obviously blamed all these manias on either the spider or the devil and other supernatural shit for all the dancing plagues but lots of religious intervention intervention was obviously brought in to treat them.
Yeah. You know, exorcisms and the like.
And in cases where the dancers, this is interesting. So, because this is kind of very like, like regional.
So it's like they would do these things where it's like the, the treatments for it were very regional to what they were thinking or believing in that place. But when the dancers were foreign, like not of that area, the regional cultural differences would uphold the belief in demonic possession.
So like, it would always go back to demonic possession. But according to Robert Bartholomew, quote, the behavior of these dancers was described as strange, because while exhibiting actions that were part of the Christian tradition, other elements were foreign.

And he points to one account that says, in their songs, they uttered the names of devils never before heard of.

This strange sect.

So how would you know what they were? So it's like, what?

So how do you know they're devils, too?

Maybe they're gods.

Maybe they're angels.

Yeah. Maybe they're friends.
Well, if you're dancing, the devil has to be a part of it. Several devils have to be a part of it.
Now, demonic possession was really the main suspect in the beginning. But in later plagues, the cause of the mania would often be attributed, because obviously we hear it in the nunnery, it would be attributed to immorality and sin particularly those in which the dances were overtly sexual or predominantly performed by women women one description read they indulged in disgraceful immodesty for many women during the shameful dance streets.
Show an ankle. Show an ankle.
Yeah, exactly. What is offered their virtue, though? That's what I wonder.
Literally show an ankle. Yeah, they showed their shoulders.
It's like, do you want to hold my hand and dance? And they're like, holy shit. You gotta get inside, girl.
You gotta go to a nunnery where you can start meowing and propositioning priests. Yeah.
Everyone has that friend who seems kind of perfect. For Patti, that friend was Desiree.
Until one day... I texted her and she was not getting the text.
So I went to Instagram. She has no Instagram anymore.
And Facebook, no Facebook anymore. Desiree was gone.
And there was one person who knew the answer. I am a spiritual person, a magical person, a witch.
A gorgeous Brazilian influencer called Cat Torres, but who was hiding a secret. From Wondery, based on my smash hit podcast from Brazil, comes a new series, Don't Cross Cat, about a search that led me to a mystery in a Texas suburb.

I'm calling to check on the two missing Brazilian girls.

Maybe get some undercover crew there. The family are freaking out.
They are lost. I'm Chico Felitti.
You can listen to Don't Cross Cat on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. now in later years such such as, you know, the dancing plague in Strasbourg, like the really famous one, the events were frequently kind of attributed to madness and hysteria as a whole, especially when they were begun, again, by girls or women.
historian john waller says that there is considerable evidence that suggests the dancing plagues and the possession epidemics of europe's nunneries were in fact classic instances of a very different phenomenon mass psychogenic illness which is way scarier to me yeah i don't love that like if you're telling me the devil came and made me dance i'm like that's fun like that happens but like mass psychogenic illness what is So what's the definition of psychogenic illness? So that's really like where the term mass hysteria comes from, where they can't pinpoint it. It's like in the Salem witch trials, they tried to blame it on like ergot poisoning, like fungus on the wheat, essentially.
And it causes, you know, some kind of food poisoning that then leads to this like wild illness that everybody just. Like psychosis.
You're hallucinating or something. Yeah.
I think it's like groupthink. Like I think it's really just, you've seen instances of it where like you can get people to do insane things if you just make it a group effort.
And again, there wasn't a lot to do back then. There certainly wasn't.
So why not dance? Yeah. There really wasn't.
And in the majority of cases of dancing plagues, the years, we were touching upon this before, the years immediately preceding the events were usually pretty harsh. There was famine, natural disasters, social and political upheaval.
In the case of Strasbourg, there was a little thing called the Black Plague that was right right before it right yeah so it can be viewed as kind of like an extreme reaction of like stress relief like a reaction to trauma it's a trauma reaction yeah yeah like so we're all gonna start dancing soon like you know you can play the piano or you can start dancing uncontrollably for years at a time yeah yeah whatever works for you whatever whatever you feel report back let us know uh but Yeah, that's my little dance into mass hysteria. And this is what the movie Footloose was based on.
Exactly. That's what I was thinking the entire time.
That's the mic drop at the end. In that, friends.
But yeah, so if you start dancing in the streets, people might start joining you and then you could all die together. Yeah.
Don't take it to a bridge. There's that.
Yeah. Oh, yeah, don't yeah don't do that avoid bridges yeah 12th century bridges are not the place to go no yeah yeah no okay so my question is did men ever participate in the dancing cliques they did yeah they did that's what makes it so funny they're like well women started it yeah yeah we just kept playing shut up yeah i think and i don't even think it was always women who started it.
I think it was just like there was a lot of women. Yeah, especially in that era.
They were like, we'll blame the ladies. It's either the devil, ladies, or a combination of both.
And then in the nunneries, obviously, it was all ladies. And the devil.
And the devil. And the devil.
Yeah. Of course.
They were having relations with the devil. Was there any documentation of whether or not they were having fun? Oh, they were having fun.
I feel like we need to document it. It feels pretty awesome, to be honest.
They were slithing. Yeah.
Like, especially in the nunnery scenario, I'm like, I think they just got bored. Yeah.
And then they were like, let's see what we can get out of these priests. Let's climb a tree.
Let's break some vows. Yeah.
I'm sure there were some hot priests back then. So they're probably like, let's see if these, let's see what we can get out of these priests.
Let's climb a tree. Let's break some vows.
I'm sure there were some hot priests back then. So they were probably like, let's see if we can break some vows.
Yeah. Stroke the ego a little bit.
When that didn't work, they were like, bring on the exorcist. Let's see.
Have a little fun. Yeah.
And then they just gave it up. Well, it's an easy out, too.
It's like, we can just claim that we were possessed. Exactly.
But we're having a great time. And there will be some recourse.
Exactly. We'll get back to get back to normal eventually but you know what we'll have our memories yeah exactly yeah you could just leave the nutterie by saying you fucked the devil yeah honestly it's really a way out actually the easiest way to leave that's that's how i get out of most social situations exactly if i don't want to be there sorry i can't make it tonight book signing's Book signing's not going to work tonight.
I slept with the devil. I fucked the devil.
I gotta go. My bad.
Yeah. I love it.
All right. Well, this is a weird shift now, but we're going to play some Would You Rather.
Please say it's dancing plague related. It's not even dancing plague related.
Would you rather fuck the devil? Climb the tree and meow. I should have put some of those in there.
Yeah yeah but you can both answer because i didn't read these two okay so would you guys rather be haunted by a ghost that only you can see or hear whispers that no one else can hear i'm going with the ghost there's something about whispering nobody can hear that feels really ominous at least they can be like oh there's my friend the ghost yeah hopefully is it a friendly ghost do we know we don't know it's up in the air okay it's up to you it's up to you it's your ghost i'd rather in general i'd rather i'd rather be able to see it if it's just whispering i'm that that's a that's another level for me that'll drive you that's how i feel i would definitely rather ghosts because whispering would drive i am very like you knowophonia. I get very annoyed with certain sounds over and over again.
So that would piss me off. It's hard to even eat lunch in here.
Like, I would just be like, shut up. Whisperings on your list? Ooh.
Constant whispering, I think, would make me crazy. Yeah.
Yeah. I'm pretty sure.
I think it would make a lot of people crazy. Yeah.
Misophonia or not. But seeing a ghost every now and then would just be like, oh, hey.
Yeah. You'd never feel alone.
Yeah, there you go. Perfect.

You could tell them the big events in your house. Just call them my imaginary friend.

Yeah.

Just be like, oh, hey, you're here.

Let me tell you something cool that happened today.

I think I agree with you guys.

I'd take the ghost.

All right, number two.

Would you rather live in a house that rearranges itself every night or in one where the doors

occasionally lead to other dimensions?

Oh, two.

Other dimensions? Yeah. Why? Rearranging my house every night would send me into orbit.
Nope. I'm a, like, comfort creature.
You are. That would annoy the shit.
And I'm a control freak. Waking up to having my house rearranged every morning would not be good.
With no sign-off. But another dimension? Let's go.
Yeah, I there with you. Yeah.
I'm like a, I'm very type A and things are where they need to be. And they're staying.
And they're now, yeah, they're not moving. Don't touch them.
And also like, let's see what's in the other dimensions. Yeah.
I'm curious. I'm going house rearranged because I can put it back.
I don't want to go to, I don't know what these other dimensions have in them. What if there's nuns meowing and trying to fuck priests? What if I fall in and I can't get back into my house to rearrange my furniture? You can't rearrange it every day because it's going to get rearranged that night.
Yeah, that's true. That's a lot of work.
I know, but dimensions are scary. It's bad to your floors.
It is bad to your floors. That's real.
If it's a really good interior designer who's rearranging the house, maybe it's a new story. This is my scenario.
It is. That's a really nice new configuration of the living room furniture.
That helped the feng shui. Excited to see what you do tomorrow.
No, still, even that wouldn't work for me. I'm too much of a control freak.
I'm sticking with it. I believe in you.
I back it. All right, number three.
Would you rather live in a world where every book you open transports you into its story or where every movie you watch traps you inside its universe until the movie ends? It's kind of like the same thing. Yeah, I mean, I think the longer trip in the book is probably less of a vibe.
Yeah. Yeah.
Depends on the book, I suppose. I can handle two hours in another world pretty easily i've worked you'll go movie i've worked my way up with psychedelics and this is actually something that i that i don't think you're like you know what yeah i i know i can handle that but but but i'm a slow reader so that's the i've always, every time I read a book, I'm always like, like, take me with you.
That's how I feel. Like, I just want to jump into the book.
But now I'm thinking about it and I'm like, that's true. That would be a long, a long time.
Well, and with some of the books that y'all are reading for this podcast, I would imagine those are not worlds that you want to spend a lot of time in no i'd like to pick and choose which books definitely

choosing the books yeah if i'm jumping into every book i read then that's a problem same thing with

movies because we watch fucked up movies a lot i don't want to go in some of them that's true

it's a hard choice i think it's the i'm gonna go with yours the time crunch is what i if i know i

have a finite time all right that'll make me feel better i like it yeah i get that i was thinking

story because when you're reading you're kind of like making like your own visuals yeah so be kind

Thank you. time all right that'll make me feel better i like it yeah i get that i was thinking story because when you're reading you're kind of like making like your own visuals yeah so it'd be kind of cool to see that i haven't done psychedelics so that would be my way of doing it that's the surprise for this episode i brought some here i'm just i'm totally kidding don't get the wrong idea these are occasional don't worry everybody you're like it's fine don't worry

yeah that's a hard one

I think the only

like because again

I've always wanted to jump

into a book

yes

I love books

yeah

but again it's the time

I get that

because I'm also that way

with like

like everybody who listens

knows I like

I'm not good in social situations

you are

so like going out

but like add a social situation out

I always like to know

there's an end

you need an end

yeah yeah

I need an end to it

Thank you. I'm not good in social situations.
You are. Going out, but like add a social situation out.

I always like to know there's an end.

Yeah.

I need an end to it.

Yeah.

So yeah, I think the movie.

Yeah, I get that. Because then you can pick like hour and a half, two hours.

Yeah, like I'm not going to jump into like.

Yeah, I'm not jumping into like.

You're only watching short films from here on out.

Exactly.

Or I probably would jump into a Harry Potter movie actually. That sounds awesome.
Which one, yeah. I'd jump into all of them.
Let's go. Yeah.
Exactly. Or I probably would jump into a Harry Potter movie, actually.
Depending on which one. That sounds awesome.
Which one, yeah. I'd jump into all of them.
Let's go. Yeah, I love that.
So yeah, definitely. That cemented it for me.
All right. Last one.
Would you rather live in a world where night never falls, so it's basically just like eternal daytime, or an eternal night where you would never witness the sun again? Obviously daytime. Nighttime.
Nighttime. I had a feeling you would go that way.
Yeah, nighttime for sure. Yeah.
I need the sun. Like, I'm...
Yeah. I need the sun.
It's the California in you. Well, yeah.
Well, I was born out here. I actually was born in Massachusetts.
Oh, yeah. And moved across the country, but getting to California.
Now it's like, when I tour in the wintertime,

it's not good for me. If it's dark for a long time, I lose my mind.

And we brought you at the perfect time.

It was sunny this morning.

A little bit.

Well, and it glistens in the snow, so it's pretty.

I had an amazing walk this morning. I was like, I didn't feel cold.

Nice.

I went and got coffee. I was like, okay, this was, because you told me, you prepared me you're like i did there's no sun out here and i was like i can handle that for two days but two days is like my limit yeah and the sun was like i'll come out for you yeah just welcome to boston because we have not had sun for weeks at this point yeah it's been dark yeah the sun doesn't like me very much sounds like you don't like it either and i don't like it we have like a mutual disrespect for each other yeah i'm way too pale for the sun yeah Yeah.
The sun doesn't like me very much. Sounds like you don't like it either.
And I don't like it. We have like a mutual disrespect for each other.
Yeah, I'm way too pale for the sun. Yeah.
I don't do well at it. Alina carries around a parasol in the summer.
Yeah. Really? Like a goth girl parasol.
I do not want to get burned. I don't want, and I don't want wrinkles.
Yes. And you're good.
You know? We have a mutual disrespect. Yeah.
Which became a respect.

Do you have a parasol collection?

I only have one.

You should have a collection.

I know I should.

I like that idea.

I also like a big wide brimmed hat.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. It sounds like good morbid merch.

I know.

The parasol feels on brand to me.

Mikey, write that down.

He's like, I got it.

He's like, already done it. I got it.
You also feel like you're in another era when you carry around a parasol. Totally.
Which is fun. I have a lot of admiration for a parasol.
When I see people out doing the parasol thing, I'm like, I couldn't do it. Even when it rains, I don't carry an umbrella.
I'm just like, whatever, just get me wet, I'm fine. But the commitment to good skin.
But I love the sun too much. I'm like, I will look like a beat up leather shoe within the next 10 years and I'm fine with it.
I'm like, when I see those guys on the beach and I'm just like, yeah, that's my future. I did it.
I'm like, maybe you don't think this is good looking, but I'm like, I want to just look like a shoe. I'm going to live as a shoe.
I'm fine with it. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
I just, I don't do well in the sun either. Like, I don't like hot.
Like, as soon as here. I don't like hot.
I don't like hot. Like, I, here, it's like, as soon as it gets in the 60s, I'm like, this is my perfect weather.
Yeah. Like, I can live in the 60s I like that kind of sun.
I feel like in the fall, it's like a muted sun. It has a different vibe to it.
I don't know how to explain it. No, I get that.
And then as soon as it gets in the summer, it's like this harsh sun that I hate the look of it. I just don't like, I don't know what it is.
Everything's too bright for you. Too bright.
I'm the opposite. I'll go to the desert in the middle of the summer when it's like 113 degrees and i'll just be in heaven that's where like a little folding mirror no no i never did that i toured with a band once the singer actually had one of the no way my god we'll never say who uh they're great and he he's great too but but i remember walking outside and be like that dude's doing like the grandma on the porch thing with the reflector.
That you see, like, in your face and don't think is real. Yeah.
I was like, this is a level of commitment to tanning that I've never even imagined. Yeah.
But I get cold so easily. Oh, I get cold very easily.
Yeah. And I'm just like, it's my least favorite feeling is being cold.
Really? And my least favorite feeling is being hot.

Yeah.

I mean, I was like, hot, I can handle.

But not when I'm sleeping.

Oh, I have to be freezing when I'm sleeping.

Me and my husband get in fights all the time.

I've been turning off the heat lately.

He's like, stop doing that.

It's like 60 degrees in this room.

I'm like, I know. I'm going above us.

And John's like, why?

It's February.

Like what? I'm like, yeah. It's the science back to that you sleep John's like, why? It's February.

I'm like, yes.

It's science back to that you sleep better when you're cold.

It's true.

I do.

It's true.

Yeah.

My thought process about it is that you can only take off so many layers.

Yeah, you can add so many more. Like, I can't peel my skin off.

I could, but I'm not going to.

Don't.

You can put on.

I mean, I guess I could.

I'm an autopsy technician.

I know how to flay back skips.

Could you bring yourself to do anything?

Absolutely not.

No.

I thought you were going to say absolutely.

I was like, whoa.

Not to myself.

To a dead person, I can.

Well, yeah, you have.

Yeah.

But I'm like, yeah.

We should end there.

Just take a turn.

I like it.

But you can't take off all the layers to get cool, but you can put on all the layers.

I mean, it's a sound logic.

It's just one I don't follow at all.

It's okay.

We diverge here.

It's fine.

It's like we got the office.

We can be friends.

We have parks.

We have all the things.

Yeah.

This is where we diverge.

It's okay.

We'll just be friends in different continents.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'll just stand in the middle of you. I like both.
I came to you in winter. You did.
That's true. That's how we know we be friends in different continents yeah i'll just stand in the middle of you i like both i came to you in winter so you did that's true that's how we know we're friends exactly that's the last one i pick eternal night because i'm a night person but i still like the sun so i'd be like a little bummed i think but yeah but you know yeah i just also love the night well yeah that's what that's how i feel did you watch night country did you did you i did i have not i think i could vibe that was yeah it was great it was it was really but even me i was like this is horrible it's dark every episode it's dark every episode it's when like it's that part of the country that it like goes into night for three months oh i think i would thrive i think i would do okay yeah not me yeah no i would be uh yeah it'd be over in one season yeah i will i would have lost my mind there's also like a a reverse of that that happens where it's like three months of light that would kill me i've been to alaska when it was in that that period like it was it i mean it was it was hard to sleep yeah yeah for sure But it was pretty cool to go outside when it was like two in the morning and it's like, oh.
And it's the middle of the day. Yeah.
I mean, it would be like dusky, you know, but it was pretty cool. I feel like that would like fuck up your circadian rhythm.
It totally does. A lot.
Yeah. Definitely.
The other way would too, obviously. So that wouldn't be great.
Yeah. You got to be strong to live out there.
Damn. Yeah.
Do you live out there anyone? Write us in. Lots of emails coming in.
I know. Suddenly we're really calling for emails.
I know. Well, that was fun.
That was fun. I loved that.
Thanks for inviting me. I had a blast.
Thanks for coming. Thank you for coming on.
We learned a lot. Oh, and check out the Dear Jack Foundation.
If you want to say anything about that before we leave. Yeah.
I mean, so Dear Jack is a nonprofit I started years ago on the heels of my survivorship with leukemia. And so we advocate for adolescent and young adults.
So people 15 to 39, which is like for years has been a really forgotten demographic of cancer patient and survivor. And so, yeah, we build programs for this group specifically.
We do retreats for couples that are entering survivorship, and we also do a wish granting program for young adult cancer patients. So, yeah, please just go to dearjackfoundation.org if you want to learn more about what we're doing, or if you happen to have a friend or be going through the cancer journey yourself, have a lot of support services and and ways to kind of link up with you and try and make the

journey easier hell yeah nice i love it so go check it out yeah perfect and you guys we hope

you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird but not so weird that if you haven't already

listened to something corporate jack's mannequin and andrew mcmahon in the wilderness you don't

check it out Thank you. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
But we've dedicated two full episodes to uncovering fascinating details about this bizarre molasses catastrophe. From the company's negligence to the victim's harrowing stories, we explore how this strange event reshaped industrial safety laws and left an indelible mark on Boston's history.
And the Boston Molasses Disaster is just one of many fascinating stories waiting for you on American history tellers. We take you to the events, the times, and the people that shaped our nation and show you how our history affected them,

their families, and affects you today. Follow American History Tellers on the Wondery app

or wherever you get your podcasts. Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to both American History

Tellers and Morbid early and ad-free. Start your free trial on the Wondery app,

Apple Podcasts, or Spotify today.