#148: Can the Trades Take You Farther Than a Degree // Dustin Van Orman, Ismael Valdez // Next Level Pros

you afraid that private equity will ruin your trades business?

Think again.

We'll reveal how top pros like Dustin Van Orman and Ishmael Valdez turned private equity into a powerhouse, scaling to 500 million and beyond.

Learn how to spot real opportunities and avoid the scammers in the best practice and coaching groups.

Don't miss this Insider's Guide to Winning with Private Equity in the trades.

All right, welcome to another episode of Next Level Level Pros.

Super excited.

We have incredible guests in the studio today.

It's a unique experience.

All four of us have been involved in private equity or one way or the other in the trades.

And so super excited.

We've got Mr.

Ishmael Valdez and we got Dustin Van Norman here on the show.

Welcome to the show, boys.

Thank you.

Excited to have you.

Thanks, Chris.

Yeah, dude.

Thanks for traveling up.

It's been a good time.

So let's get a quick, brief synopsis.

If you can give me like just the 60-second version of your story.

I know you came from different backgrounds in the trades.

If you can go into that.

My name is Ishmael Valdez.

I've been in the trades for about 15 years.

Just had a successful exit on a plumbing and air conditioning company about four years ago.

Grew probably the fastest air conditioning and plumbing business in the nation.

It took us six years and four months to exit that business.

So what are we talking from?

Zero to what were you doing in revenue?

We did

zero to $108 million in revenue in six years and

four months.

All plumbing.

We started with hvac and then uh bolted on the plumbing side on it we're about to get electric or you know that's probably the closest to competing with us daryl is that right yeah i mean zero to 233 in uh four and a half years so

no baby just

got to give you some crap no that's good and in the in the hvac and you said you were in plumbing as well Yes, sir.

Nice.

That's awesome.

So all three of the main trades going on with that.

Question for you real quick.

When you were growing your business, did you build that to sell or what point did you see that as an exit um

i think in 2020 2021 the noise started right um and when i say the noise started um we started hearing hey you know um i think centero was the one of the first private equities that came into our our industry and they bought a company out like in north california and you know they were talking about some ridiculous multiples um and then champions went right after that service champions right by which is 15 minutes away from me they were a 27 year old business you know was doing about a hundred million dollars at the time and um then we started hearing more and more.

And then I started getting approached, I'm sure, just like you guys, through emails and calls and people showing up to my shop just saying, hey, man, you got something valuable here.

And at the time,

I thought they were.

kidding around.

I was like, you guys know we're plumbers, right?

Like

you guys don't understand, like we do plumbing, air conditioning, and we're getting into electrical.

Do you guys know that?

They're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

We just, you know, we're really interested.

And at the time, I think I had like 400 employees, right?

And that's when they started knocking on the door.

And that's when I started educating myself because I was ignorant to, you know, I didn't even know what the term private equity was at the time.

So yeah, we actually had a little bit different of an experience.

Like when we launched, we fully intended to sell.

Yeah.

And, well, I mean, we had.

We had a career going up into that point that was like, you know, the hard knocks.

I mean, was this your first business that you launched?

Second business.

So Home Comfort was my first business.

We did about 21 mil in four years.

And then I did next gen after that, right after that.

Okay.

Awesome.

Awesome.

Yeah, ours was a little bit different.

We ended up running a process with like to get private equity knocking on the doors.

That's dope.

We were in a little bit obviously different line of the trades with, you know, fully, fully solar and electric, but, but yeah, a little, a little bit different.

Now, you, on the other hand, come from a little bit different background.

You're more focused on the private equity side.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you can give us a little background there.

Well, a little background on myself first.

Dustin Van Orman.

I live in Utah.

If I I look at my history, I say I'm an HVAC technician from way back, but if you go back even further, I'm that kid that stood next to dad while he's sitting in the bathtub at the apartment complex that he owns, and I'm handing him wrenches while he's fixing the tub.

I mean, I learned from the time I was 10 years old, and I've always loved being in the repair business and taking care of, you know, that, that, uh, that checklist.

So

I got into heating and air conditioning back in 2000.

I think the trades are amazing.

I think there's so much potential.

And then it wasn't that many years ago we were approached by the private equity industry.

I mean, they saw in our in the services side of the industry the potential.

I mean, the recession hits and we're strong.

People still have to fix their stuff.

And so they saw the value in our industry.

And at first we were approached and we were cautious.

We, in fact, had all of our barriers up because we

I mean, you're selling out, right?

Right.

This is going to hurt our people, right?

And we were nervous.

We weren't interested in doing anything with any of them.

Ultimately, we started our own group, the Any Hour group, so we could create what we felt we couldn't find with the others.

Now, there's other good groups out there.

I'll stay here.

Not that many.

I'm just going to be honest with you.

There's not that many.

I'm trying to be nice.

I'm trying to be humble.

Anyway, but

we just didn't resonate with the others.

And it just wasn't the right direction for us.

So we formed the Any Hour Group back in 2021.

Step back one step further.

I started with Any Hour in 2011.

I was one of of the first hvac technicians there jumped in a truck worked hard at that time there was about a dozen of us total revenue we were about to what year was that that you started as a tech with them with any hour 2011 july 1st 2011.

um we were about two and a half million in revenue total wow um just small shop yeah just a small shop figuring things out and i'll tell you the key to success and the growth because we've seen tremendous growth and success is that that the people you surround yourself with from the very beginning.

It's your, I mean, you need to be looking for leaders in every person you hire because you're developing developing leaders and the more you can find the right people, the more you can progress as a business.

Absolutely.

So I've seen the business go from two and a half million to today, just the Utah location where I started, all organic growth did a little over 110 million last year.

Amazing.

And then as a group, I mean, because we set out to create what we couldn't find, which

We wanted to create a real partnership where people could come benefit from resources, tools,

experience, a team that scaled a business from small to the top.

And so that's what we set out to create.

And that's appealing to people.

They don't want to sell out.

They don't want to just give their business away.

They want to create an environment that's strong and successful for all the people in the business.

So we've been very successful.

Right now, we have 30 locations in the United States

covering 10 states.

How much revenue are you guys doing now, Dee?

Right now, approximately 500 million.

Jesus Christ.

So that's awesome.

It's been fun.

500 million among 30 locations, you say?

That's awesome.

Correct.

That's great.

Cool.

Very good, man.

So

both incredible backgrounds, both have been growing it.

Hey guys, it's Chris.

Hey, a lot of you leave comments asking for help.

Do me a real quick favor.

Shoot me a text at 509-374-7554.

That's 509-374-7554.

Shoot me a text.

I'll answer and help you with whatever you need.

Don't worry, I got you back.

Let's go back to the show, baby.

It's interesting.

It brings up the question, like, why?

Why is private equity involved in the trades right right now?

Because, you know, historically, they're going waves with different industries, different businesses.

Why is it so appealing right now?

I think, like Dee said, you know, we're pandemic proof.

We're recession-proof.

I think they see the value behind us and that we're probably an irreplaceable trade.

I don't care if you're, you know, start making machines that can do it and start making bots that can do it.

Nobody's ever going to do it like a human being can actually do it inside the trades.

And I think they see the value behind it.

You know, they finally see us as

a platform that can be invested in,

not just have the SaaS model and not just have

the rest of the other industries.

I think they see the value behind us.

You mentioned pandemic proof.

I mean, you look at what happened.

Private equity was interested in our trades before the pandemic hit.

But then what happened when they saw how it affected us?

I mean, we were an essential service.

We didn't shut down.

In fact, all of of us grew like crazy if we had our stuff together, right?

Of course.

They saw how well we handled that crisis in the entire world.

It was a worldwide crisis, and the trades came through like just fantastic.

And that's appealing.

I think another thing that's going on is the amount of money that's pumping into private equity is massive.

Margins are strong.

Well, let's see, was it the Milken Institute that Bryce went to?

So he has a conference that my brother went to, and he was showing, they were showing him how like the money that's going into the market, the stock market versus private equity, private equity is outpacing the stock market.

Well, it's just become so, so expensive to be a publicly traded company these days.

And the amount of return that you can get in private equity versus publicly traded companies is just drastically different.

And, you know, you mentioned and alluded to it, but like we are in the AI era.

And when you're analyzing businesses of what is AI going to replace, really the trades is going to be one of the very last type of

any type of industry that's going to be replaced by artificial intelligence and robotics, right?

Like for a for a robot to show up to somebody's home to analyze the situation and customize an approach, like that just seems so far-fetched versus

versus like

you know, just an arm that's replacing and doing a task over and over again in a manufacturing facility.

And so, you know, you look at these

software companies that have traditionally taken a lot of money from private equity and whatnot.

Those things are being, I mean, you got softwares being written in three days through artificial intelligence.

You just got like, I mean, the ability to replicate most businesses is just

like crazy.

And so I think that's where...

the blue-collar work really shines through.

I can't wait till AI really gets developed into the trades because I think just like you said, you're going to have the first software company that's going to be a $500 billion written by a couple dudes in a garage.

You're also going to have the, you know, the 30, 35, 40, 50% net profit

trades

operations getting built out right now because

look, whether people want to see it or not or whether people want to believe it or not,

AI is going to wipe.

90% of your in-house support.

I believe that

the next batch of operations that's about to blow up is going to be driven by maybe four to five drivers in the in-house support, driving hundreds of millions of dollars.

Instead, you know, an extra, we had 160 people in-house between CSRs, dispatching production, accounting,

just the whole infrastructure to be able to hold that.

I believe the AI is going to benefit the trades and take us to the next step through giving us the bigger multiples and valuing us at

a higher rate.

So I can't wait for

that to happen.

I have a question for you.

So you built in California.

Yes, sir.

So you obviously had like some of the toughest regulatory

state.

Still do.

How is that?

Like we, Washington, we had some big challenges working with the governments here, but I'm just curious on California.

Look, California is unique, man.

California is just like

it's a different side of the operation.

It's a little bit more complex operation than most people, than most people are used to.

It's no different from any hour.

It's no different from those people.

They're all driven by human beings.

We just got to apply.

We just got to

apply different laws to our structure.

But yeah, was it difficult?

100% it was difficult.

Do I love dealing with all the behind California?

100% I don't.

But I promise you,

50 million people in California, you can't beat it.

You know what I'm saying?

It's one of the, I think it was just named the fourth,

the fourth biggest, largest GDP in the world.

So you can't ignore those numbers.

You you can't ignore just because there's different compliances there um you can't ignore that market so and yet somehow the government's still broke i know

it's sad do you feel like do you feel like taxing all your people 13 on the top oh my god it's trust me do you feel like that keeps people out of the market because of the bear of entry i think it i think it brings out the best in people too So it does keep a lot of people out of the market.

Tommy's not in the market.

There's a ton of private equities that won't touch California.

I think that's why I got a big payout.

The way I got a big payout, because we were able to do it in such short amount of time and do it

compliantly, which was one of the toughest things to do.

Look, growing a business in California, I'm going to put it to you guys

in a simple metaphor.

Growing a business in California is like playing golf with the wind hitting you.

Right.

You know,

it's interesting.

These barriers of entry, I think, create tons of value, ton of opportunity, because yeah, most guys aren't willing to go through any type of barrier of entry.

That's really what made us successful in building a solar company out of Washington State.

For anybody that's ever looked in the solar industry, typically it's going to be around where the sunniest places with the highest electric rates.

I mean, we're talking about Seattle, which is not the sunniest, and the lowest cost of energy in the United States.

And that's where we chose to establish our business, where literally everybody else was taking the low-hanging fruit and working up.

We took the highest-hanging fruit and worked down.

and because of it we established ourselves in a way that's just completely different having these different regulations you know washington state's just as crazy as california when it comes to regulation right like electrical regulation you got to have you can only have two apprentices per journeyman you know you like see that i can't deal with bro i can't deal with that look it's hard enough to scale a business now i you mean to tell me that each one has to have a license and they got to have so many like the look the easy part about california and i don't mean to cut you off chris the easy are the the easy part about California is under my plumbing license, I'm under my electric, under my ATRAC license, I could carry all the people with me, right?

So recruiting and building them were

exactly.

Yeah, I mean, we have literally the craziest electrical licensing standard in the U.S.

But because of it, it kept everyone else out, right?

And if we could be compliant and learn how to be compliant, right?

Learn how to play within the rules of the game, that ultimately allowed us to dominate, right?

Like, and that's, that's really the key to this whole thing is like, what are the rules?

Exactly.

Can I create any additional rules?

And like, how do I operate within that?

I think kids, too, if they're going into trades, like states like Washington are great because it is really hard to find those type of people and they get paid well.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dude, I'm glad you brought that up, honestly.

And we should talk, we should, we should talk about it because one, you know, I don't want to make this a personal podcast order.

Oh, you're great, man.

But look at

one of the big things and the biggest, the biggest problem we have in the industry

is the recruitment side of it.

Right.

We are running operations, whether you're NEO or NextGen, next level, whatever, everybody across the industry, we are running and building these infrastructures and operation with a limited amount of people.

you go to California,

you know, my technicians go to this company and then they bounce to this company and then they come back to this company and then they come back to us and we're just sharing labor, but we're not fixing the problem.

The problem we need to fix in the industry is to actually get an influx of recruitment, right?

And it starts at the high school level.

And, you know, know that's one of the personal goals that i have in my journey is to be able to impact that section of it because if we can if we can actively um impact the educational system where we're all we're we're not just pushing them to college we give them an option to come to the trades and actually make real good money um if we can do that that's that that's what's going to solve the the the biggest problem we have in the industry which is labor yeah i mean we got a we got a big shift in our educational system that has to take place i mean i mean you think about it right Like AI is banned in schools right now.

Like, like, you can't even use Chad GBT to write a paper or do anything because it's cheating.

Like, I mean, that's where we're at, where we need to completely shift and like understand what AI is going to impact, get people more into the trades, understand that, like, blue-collar work is

respectable.

You can make a good living, all these different things.

And so, yeah,

it's a big shift that we have to make.

And I agree with you.

Like, we've got to be.

Dean, I got a question for you because, you know, your story is super super unique and your story is you know one of a kind to be able to be able to come from a you know churning wrenches to running one of the biggest private equity shows in the nation.

What do you think we have to do as influencers right as you know as being the voice of the industry?

And I hate calling myself a influencer.

It pisses me off honestly.

And I don't even know if we're supposed to cuss on these and I apologize.

We'll bleep it out for you.

But

we're a clean shell, but you know.

Okay,

I'll make sure we clean.

But look, what do you think

we should be focused on as the lead drivers inside the industry?

Which, you know, obviously you're huge in the industry and

you guys are all huge in the industry.

What do you think we should all focus on to being able to solve the biggest problem, which is the labor shortage?

Yeah, good question.

We need to open our doors.

We need to show people the,

I mean,

the trades are fun.

Do people realize this is fun or do they think they need to go to college?

That's the reality is society has trained people to believe that college is where you need to go and you need to get that education.

But the reality is, not all of us want to go to school and sit in a classroom and learn what they want us to learn.

We want to get out and experience life.

We want to go experience a career of our choice.

And in the trades, you can have a choice of what you do with your life direction.

But I think people aren't, they don't understand even what's available yet.

And so helping them see that

what's the old person, the old perception of a plumber.

I mean, the people have this, yeah, they have this perception hard, right?

I can tell you in our business, I'm going to take our drains program where I think most companies and ours used to be this way where you come into a drains team, you know, they're putting a snake down a sewer line and cleaning it out so water can flow again.

It used to be really dirty, really.

I mean, just it was frowned upon.

People used to come in and out of those departments.

We've created an environment where if you have the right culture, if you have the right training, if you have the right opportunity, if you show people how to turn those leads into a really successful career,

even though there might be a dirty aspect to it, it's respectable.

It's honorable.

It's got direction.

And we can educate people to understand that there's a real career, a real direction in any of the trades.

And there's massive wealth.

Oh, my goodness.

There's massive wealth.

There's massive wealth to be done in the trades.

And that's the one thing that I think we're missing and we're not being loud enough.

Do you know who the loudest people are right now you know who the loudest people are right now the ai and the tech companies that's why everybody wants to work for them who wants to work for facebook who wants to work for google who wants to work for amazon who wants to work for these new ai companies everybody wants to work for them we need to be a way

we we got to get louder we got to get louder hey you can make two three hundred four hundred thousand dollars as a plumber as an electrician as an age factor as a solar rep you can make that much money your first second third year here right that's what we need to do as as that's the responsibility we

have as, as the face of the industry to be louder.

The loudest one is who attracts the labor, right?

What do you think?

Yeah, I know, I had kids over.

My daughter had some friends over, and I asked all of them, what are you doing for college?

And then I asked them, do you guys know about trades?

And do you know how good it is?

And just trying to like influence them because I didn't know until I had a business

that trades was such a good opportunity.

I mean, the reality is we're up against a big thing, right?

I mean, the college system is a very lucrative industry or whatnot, but yeah, we can definitely speak up the way we do our recruiting, our training, those type of things.

What are you guys doing right now over at any hour for recruiting and training people to get them up to speed?

You bet.

We have people coming through our doors every single day.

If you go talk to my recruiting team, they'll have thousands of applications per month.

coming in the door.

You have to be actively looking for the right people, bringing them in, showing them what's available, creating an opportunity.

And then you got to be open-minded.

I mean, you bring people in the door, and I think so many contractors out there are just looking for the most experience.

You need to find people for who they are and help them develop that experience.

If you're hiring for character and if you're bringing people into the trades, giving them an education and helping them start that career path, that's why we have a shortage is because we've created it.

We've only gone for the, like you said, they're bouncing from shop to shop to shop.

So these experienced guys are the first one they grab, right?

If we bring in young people that are ambitious, that are interested in learning how to work with their hands and have a career in the trades and then train them,

they're grateful for that training.

They're going to stay with us.

We're going to have loyalty.

We're going to have hardworking people.

And like you said, in a matter of just a few years, we've helped them develop a career path where they can make an incredible income and provide for their families.

So I was just talking to Ara about this.

I had lunch with him last week and we were talking about this, the labor shortage.

And, you know, I'm telling him, hey, your biggest problem at Service Titan is not AI.

Your biggest problem is not acquiring new clients.

Your biggest problem from, you know, a million miles off of you is that you're going to get capped off with the amount of technicians you have in the industry because, you know, it's a paid-per-technician service.

So we need to fix this as a whole, right?

So how do we talk to our, how do we talk to the 20, 25-year-olds that don't know what to do?

How do we talk to the 18-year-olds that don't know what to do?

That's the problem we need to solve.

Yeah, I mean, and it's got to be a cultural shift because, I mean, these kids, they're coming out of high school, addicted to their phones, don't know how to use their hands, never have done any type of like labor or sweated in their life, right?

So like

that, I mean, you got to address this situation early.

It's not at 18 or 19.

It's actually 12, 13, 14, like figuring out ways that we can insert ourselves in like shift in society and get to where it's like

people love working again.

Amen.

So, you know, it's interesting.

There's there's a labor shortage, but then there's also like a lot of guys in the space that just have trouble scaling, right?

Like all of us have scaled drastic amounts.

Like what would you say like are the key aspects in growing a business from zero to 106 million in six and a half years?

I think the biggest problem one of these contractors having, you know, I've mentored, you know,

thousands of these guys and I've had one-on-ones with them.

And, you know, through my new Vethermost that we're able to, we're building a training platform where we're talking to these five, five, two, three, four, five million dollar contractors.

And the one thing I've noticed is that they're not a sales-driven organization.

Amen.

The reason why you and I and you are and every and every one of these contractors are successful is because we built a culture based on sales.

We built a culture based on

solving problems for the consumer.

We built a culture on driving forward.

And that's where

most of these technicians that decided decided to be CEOs or most of these installers that decided to be CEOs right or most of these office personnel that decided to be CEOs lack the fundamentals of a sales process the sales process is one of the most

you know unique and most pure form of growing the the business hey guys it's Chris if you're finding value in what you're hearing go ahead and like and subscribe that way people just like you can find this content for free here on YouTube now let's dive back in the show so Dustin like when you're you're a small shop, you're doing a couple million a year, just struggling, you don't have these sales processes, you don't have any really good operations in place, like where do you go?

Where do you go for help or something like that?

I think that's a challenge that so many business owners are facing.

If I go back and think about what my experience was like in the beginning, it was the Wild West.

I mean, I...

I would go to my first call in the morning.

I'd present options for repair.

If they didn't want to repair, I'd present options for replacement.

If they wanted to replace it, I'd go buy my own equipment.

I'd come back.

I'd do do my entire install myself.

I'd call Dispatch and say I was done.

Then I'd go do another one.

Dispatch would line my calls up for the day.

And at five o'clock, they'd say, here's your next four calls.

Let me know how it goes tomorrow.

I mean, we did whatever it took, and it was the Wild West.

And that meant we had to get involved from the minute we woke up till the jobs were done.

It was usually 10, 11 o'clock at night because that's what it took.

Yeah.

Now, if I'm talking about the challenges these businesses are facing and they need to figure out how to overcome, people will come into our shop quite often.

Anyone's invited and they'll ask us, well, what's the silver bullet that helped you scale your business?

So many shops have a hard time scaling past that two, three, four, five million dollar range because they don't know how to build a team.

And so they're wearing every single hat themselves and they don't know how to take one off and hand it to somebody talented.

That's where they're lacking is building the right.

Can I follow with that?

I'll follow up with that.

I believe that

the two to three million dollar guys guys that are stuck

in the position that they're stuck in is because they can't find themselves.

They don't know what position they should be seated on.

Sometimes you don't know that, hey, maybe you should be running the install department or maybe you should be running the office or maybe you should be running the text.

Like

part of being

a high-level CEO is identifying yourself.

in the operation and running with it right um and and at the two million dollar shop most of these guys yes they're doing everything themselves.

What I would tell every operator out there that is stuck between $1 and $2 million is hire a sales person, hire a senior technician, hire a sales representative.

Sales is a gift.

Sales is a gift.

Being able to have an emotional connection with a consumer in

a short amount of time and being able to persuade them to purchase something from your company is a skill and a skill that most most operators lack and there's nothing wrong with it but you got to know your skill i knew my skill when i stepped in that door i knew that i knew how to market i knew how to recruit and i stuck with that all the way to 108 you never saw me go inside that house you never saw me trying to install it you never saw me i identified my skill what would benefit the operation and i ran with it and then i started building piece by piece of like okay cool what happens after the phone rings okay first of all we need somebody to answer the phone second of all we need somebody to run those calls so what let's start building that process one by one.

But finding the seat is finding your seat as a CEO and knowing that you got to build the team is how you're going to be able to scale your business.

You know, it's interesting.

I think a lot of times technician-ran businesses,

they look down upon sales.

Yes, sir.

Right.

Like they, they're like, oh, sales is dirty.

Yep.

You know, I can't just have only sales guys.

I got to have guys that understand the ins and the outs of exactly how this is done to be in management, to be out talking with the customer to be any of these things right and so like it was it was always interesting to guys when when they found out like dude i've never i've never installed a solar panel in my life right like i i know how a solar panel is installed i've watched it be installed i've i've never

like i i i i own i own a drill right like but like like you don't you don't have like if you are a technician running a business understand you don't need to be a technician running a business right like like running a business is a completely different skill than going and servicing a customer.

Well, I think the irrelevant conversation, which you can see in like a sales department and a technician department is like, which one's more important?

They're both.

They're both important.

Yeah.

But yet you see them all the time.

Technicians are like, well, if we don't do our job, then the sales guys don't matter.

And then sales guys are like, well, if we don't do our job, then technicians don't have any work.

We get all the revenue.

Yeah.

It's like, but if you, if you go into your business as a technician, right?

It can be easily,

you can stick to that position where it's like, my work is my marketing or something like that.

And you just limit yourself.

So I completely agree with what you're saying.

You need to attract top talent that can sell in your business.

Trouble is at $2 million in revenue, how do you attract the top talent in sales?

Because they want to have a career path.

Yeah, I want to hear it.

Ready?

The way you attract high-level sales guys is by being able to provide a higher pay scale and a simpler pay scale.

Whether you guys see it or not, and I'm sure you guys see it, the sales drivers, the salespeople, the sales tickets, the sales personnel, they're all incentivized by commission okay i knew a good salesman when he walked in my door as soon as he talked commission as soon as he talked well can i get a a salary can i get or a low hourly or can i do this or can i i'm like if you don't walk in the door and tell me hey how is what is the biggest commission i can get on this ticket you're not a sales driver

so i'm going to conflict a little bit here So I am a sales guy.

And so I can appreciate a good commission structure.

I think that is.

I think, frankly, the way that you take a $2 million shop to a $50 million shop to a $100 million shop, yes, you have to attract the right talent.

It's all vision driven, right?

Like for me as a sales guy, yes, I got to be able to make a lot of money.

But if I do not see a vision of growth, a vision of opportunity, like in fact, if a guy does come in and the first thing he's talking about, pay, I'm kicking him out.

Like I want somebody to be bought into the culture, the vision, the direction of the business to see where they're going to fit into going and growing this thing.

And then let's have a compensation structure.

But I do agree.

You got to compensate.

I think most guys, most guys

on a baseline level just have no idea how to compensate guys.

I disagree that at the $2 million

level, you have that kind of, because otherwise everybody, there would be 100 million dollar companies.

At the $2 million level, there's no vision.

And that's why they're all stuck in the

because there's no vision.

And that's my point is like for a guy to get out of it, he's got to change his vision.

Most of these guys are just in survival vision mode.

It's just like, I'm just trying to get to the next payroll, pay, you know, do the next thing.

And like, if I can just stay here and make my 200 grand a year or 300 grand a year, then I'm, then I'm going to be fine.

Versus the guy that's at 2 million, he's like, yo, in five years, we're getting to 100 million.

And this is the plan.

This is the roadmap to be able to get it.

They're going to be able to attract the top talent.

So like one is like shifting the limiting beliefs that you have around your business,

thinking bigger,

being able to attract in the right talent.

I mean, that's essentially what made SoulGen what SoulGen was.

Like, we're sitting in a garage recruiting guys, right?

Like, third guy walking in, I'm like, yo, we're building this thing to 100 million in the next five years.

This is the roadmap.

This is how we're doing it.

They're like, well, I'm sitting in your freaking garage.

I know you're sitting in the garage.

This is how we're doing it.

We're investing in the right things.

That's a true operator right there.

That is a true operator right there.

So, Ishmael, you're talking about the compensation side of things.

And I agree with both.

I'm glad this conversation is happening.

But here's the thing.

Without saying it, you're demonstrating your vision.

You're a charismatic, energetic person that is proud to be able to offer people a great income.

You're demonstrating your vision along with sharing with them their opportunity for compensation.

I meet so many business owners that have been 2 million for the last 10 years.

They can't paint a vision.

So they have to change something and able to create an environment where people want to be because high performers, they're not going to go to that shop because they don't see the direction.

So people need to see a path.

They need to have a voice and they need to be compensated.

Well,

amen.

Look, look at us coming together.

So on Instagram, I see

all these posts about like buying retired businesses where people are retiring and just talking about what you guys are talking about.

Those businesses struggle because they don't have sales, right?

Yep.

So if you're a very sales-driven person, it'd be a good opportunity for you to go find a business that wants to like retire.

business owner wants to retire.

There's a ton of them out there too.

Yeah.

Go in there with a sales focus, not a technician focus, and build that business.

So, 2025, what's the opportunity right now in the HVAC world?

The trades, the plumbing.

Dude, roofing's coming right

behind us, too, man.

You know, there's a different level of sophistication that the trades has been going through.

Obviously, the solar people have been leading the pack for

years and years and years.

And the HVAC guys were following you guys right behind it, whether it was a CRM or whether it was a sales-driven

trade.

The sales and the sales,

I mean, the solar industry has led us to where we're at right now.

So you know, it's interesting.

Obviously, there's a lot of like best practice groups out there, right?

Like I think one of the biggest shifts in my career was once I started getting in the room with the right people, learning, learning the secrets of things that I wasn't doing and others were doing, right?

And there's been a lot of like best practice groups that have been well established in the trades for a long time.

What should you be looking for in like being able to scale up, educate up, learn these things?

Because obviously there's podcasts that you can go to, there's YouTube, there's different things.

Where are you turning for the right direction these days?

The first thought that comes to mind, and before I answer your question, I want to point out something I've observed.

So often business owners will see a spark of talent in somebody in their business, a technician or somebody in the office, whatever.

And so they see this spark of talent and they think, oh, well, this makes sense.

Let's make this person a manager.

So they put them in a management position, but then they never spend the time to develop that person.

And so it's, I mean, you may have heard this before, but you've heard people come to you and say, hey, so-and-so just decided to give notice.

We just made this person a service manager, for example, right?

So-and-so just decided to give notice.

They're leaving the business.

And man, I'm so glad they're leaving because they're the hardest one to handle.

Right.

What they don't realize is oftentimes those hard technicians to handle are your highest producers.

I'm one of them.

I'm probably not the easiest guy to manage in the world.

You're probably not either, just being honest.

And so your high performers are walking out the door because we haven't developed our leaders to know how to communicate properly and how to inspire and how to understand what that person's needs are.

And so having coaching and training and opportunity available in programs like what you guys have created here with the next level pros team.

Businesses need to have direction.

They need to understand what the next step in scaling is.

They need to have a coach to help them stay accountable.

They need to have leadership development.

They need to have weekly one-on-ones.

There's so many things that need to be happening.

You can't just hire somebody with a spark of talent and expect them to figure it out because they might be able to become a manager, but are they going to become a leader without you supporting them?

You know, it's interesting.

You look at like anything that operates at a high level, whether it's a professional sports team, whether it's with Tony Robbins, whatever, right?

They all have certain things in common and yet so many of us try to like cut corners and bypass that, right?

like every like Michael Jordan right he had he had his coach his trainers his developers right like to be able to operate at a high level you have to be in these groups you have to be around the right minds you got to have accountability and everything else yet so many of us we just want to be like oh that's not for me like I had my coach in high school playing football but I don't need him now like I'm a big boy I'm smart I've got it I can figure this out on my own I've got access to all the same information they do the biggest the biggest people culprits to this are the people who like had a job, started a business, and now they're making a little bit more than they used to make.

They're like, I got it figured out.

And they're the ones I'm like, dude, you do not have it figured out.

There's so much opportunity you're just leaving on the table.

But what I was going to say about what you just said as far as recruiting your top talent into management is one of the biggest mistakes that a lot of businesses make because a lot of times they actually are decreasing their pay.

They heard it.

They're not management material and they're happier as a leader

in the either sales or or technicians yeah top producer doesn't mean you're a top manager right no it can be but it's not a and it hurts the business too because you're taking a revenue producing person and putting them in a managerial position and most of us forget that that we need that revenue and especially at the at the at the pivotal moment where we're at two three four five million dollars you need those drivers you need to keep them where they're where they're where they're you know producing the most for the company but i like what you're saying i think we should be training all of our people to be leaders

because then you you see the the ones that rise rise upright so i got a question for you guys So coming into this industry, right?

The plumbing, air conditioning, electrical industry,

and coming in as a mentoring group,

there's a lot of scammers out there, right?

And I've called them out.

I promise you, I called them out.

Dustin, you've seen me.

I'm not afraid to call people out.

I've seen you do it.

And the reason why I'm not afraid to call it out is because I am so protective of the trades.

I'm so protective of the contractors.

I'm so protective of them getting taken advantage of because I'm one of them.

And I've been in their shoes where it's like, man, how the hell am I going to hit payroll this month, man?

And

they're looking for that silver bullet or the coach.

So how do you, as a contractor, and, you know,

how do you distinguish who's a good coach and who's a bad coach or who's a good training platform and who's an outdated platform?

You know, it's a great question.

I think, you know, one of the things that I've always looked at is like, has somebody ran the roadmap that I want to run?

Right.

Like whenever I can get in the room with somebody that has been in my shoes, done the work, gone through the same struggles, like that's somebody I want to learn from.

Right.

And so, and does it for the right reasons.

I think a lot of the scammers out there, there's guys that are figureheads in the space, but that aren't involved in their program whatsoever, right?

Like they're a good marketing piece, but then you get in the door and you never hear from them.

Yeah, you never hear from them again.

There's no substance to the program or anything like that.

And so it's interesting, like the program that we teach, teach, we teach what we call the eight pillars for growth.

It's under our God mode structure.

And essentially, these are pillars that we have built being in the shoes of the technicians, being in the shoes of the business owner.

And we've done it through successes and failures and being paying for coaching ourselves, right?

Like I always say, like, one, be extremely afraid of a guy that wants to be your coach that doesn't pay to be coached, right?

Like that isn't constantly learning, isn't constantly developing.

Like one, one thing that I've dedicated in my career, I've spent over $1.3 million just on my personal education, being in the right room, going to a three-year Harvard program for owners and presidents of companies, like doing the work.

But more importantly, like I've been there when it's tough to make payroll.

I've been there when you're just scrapping together and getting your next sale to be able to figure out how to cash flow this or you know put off a vendor for a little while so you can make the the payment.

And so like when you really understand that, right, like that, that's the room you want to be in.

And so, you know, we're, we're coming into the trade space.

Yeah, we have, we have background in the trades, right?

Solar is a, you know, is an electrical trade.

It's, uh, but what we bring to the trades is, is a more like astute and like targeted sales, development, leadership, structure, vision, where many, many guys in the trades just really struggle with.

Darren, what would you ask?

Everyday contractors that are two to four million dollars, right?

And they're looking for a coach, they're looking for a training platform.

If you're one of them, what are the three questions that every contractor should be asking to that, you know, whoever they're interviewing to be their coach?

What would you be the top questions that they should be asking or looking for to bring out red flags or green flags?

It's really tough because sometimes when you're in that spot, you don't know what you're looking for.

Right.

And so I think it's looking for

track records or people that have worked with them.

Amen.

And then kind of like Chris was saying is, is what, what's their track record?

It's interesting, the people that we see like tons of change in their business and success, they're implementing some of the most simple things, some basic things.

And so like, that's the thing is it's, it's really tough to, when you're in that shoe, when you're grinding all the time, like it's really hard to see these simple things that need to be adjusted.

And so it's one of those things where you just got to do it.

Yep.

Like the worst case scenario is you pick the wrong person and then you pick the right person next.

Right.

Making a decision, I think, is more important because I think a lot of people just don't make the decision because they're worried about getting burnt.

I mean, who hasn't been burnt?

Everybody.

Right.

But it's like the quicker you get burnt, the quicker you can make the right decision or find the right person and learn from it.

You know, you know, it's interesting.

Like

in the coaching space, sometimes, yeah, to Daryl's point is like, just by spending the money, you're committing to taking some action.

Most guys just aren't taking any action.

They're reacting, right?

Like they're not being proactive in designing their business or whatnot.

So like just by giving that pledge or that vote of like, hey, I am going to start working on my business.

That's step one.

Obviously, you want those dollars to go to the best program, right?

You want to be in the right room.

You want to be with the right guys.

And so, and that just comes down to, yeah, who's got the best track record?

Who's got the best testimonials?

Like who, who actually knows what they're talking about?

But like you could literally pay for something, get a tiny little piece of advice, and it could be drastic and changing your life.

You know, if we're talking about these groups and how you can find a coach and surround yourself with people to help be successful, the first step is to just

make the decision to do something.

I mean, how many of these people are trying to recreate the machine?

It doesn't have to be recreated.

There's plenty of us already doing it successfully.

And I'll tell you what, we're happy to share.

I mean, I have hundreds of businesses come to our shop every single year.

And I walk them around personally and show them what we're doing in our business, right?

Anyone's invited.

I need to go along with that.

A truly successful person always wants to share.

That's right.

Like they're the most open people.

That's right.

And then the other thing, too, is you're observing what these larger businesses are doing.

Well, you tell me one of them that's not in a group, one form or another where they have coaching and training opportunity.

They're all in something.

I think they need greatness.

I think that was

one of the most eye-opening things when I was growing Nextion and we were trying to get it to a size the most eye-opening thing to me you know i thought people were going to be standoffish of me or they weren't going to want to share their little secrets or whatever and you know i'm the type of guy that asks a million questions and i my my question is always why right but i like that that's a that's a good thing about the industry the the future of this industry where i see it dude back 20 years ago nobody really talked to each other yeah like leland didn't see you know didn't talk to kevin and kevin didn't talk to ken goodridge and all those because social media wasn't a thing, cell phones weren't a thing, all that.

So like back in the day, it was harder for us to share information.

Now that we have all these ways of communication,

it's eye-opening how many people are willing to help each other in the trades.

And I don't know if this, if this pertains to, you know, other industries, but I can guarantee you one thing, the trades are super welcoming.

We welcome people that are, that are good people, good, hardworking people.

And, you know, we welcome to take on a project with us.

I think that brings up a good point is like reach out, start talking to people.

Yeah, because

people want to see success, surround themselves with people that are successful.

I think one of the

reasons why we've had so much success with the trades, with different businesses right now in 2025, is like

we don't suffer from a lack of information problem, right?

We got tons of info, right?

Free now.

YouTube, literally, you can go to like some of these Ivy League schools for free.

You just don't get the certification.

Like, it's crazy.

Like, the amount of information out there is available.

What really sets us apart and where we've been able to find a lot of success is the level of accountability that we hold because we do one-on-one coaching with our guys, like actually look over their numbers.

Like that's where guys need their freaking feet held to the fire to make sure that they are implementing the real information because knowing information is one thing.

We all know how to get skinny.

We all know how to look good and everything else, but that doesn't keep us from eating the cookies.

Right.

And so like we need somebody that keeps us from eating the cookies and that makes us show up at the shop accountable to certain KPIs, right?

Like that is absolutely imperative in 2025.

On top of that, what we found is that works incredible is in-person workshops, right?

Because what happens is we get stuck in that day-to-day as a technical operator, right?

Where we're head down doing the thing.

We're down here on ground level.

We have to get to 30,000 foot.

And what I found the best cadence is, is once a quarter, you remove yourself from the business, you go spend time with other entrepreneurs that are working on the same exact thing, and you actually work on the business from 30,000 feet.

And that's where we found just a ton of success with these workshops is guys are forced to be in the room, right?

They paid the money.

They're forced to be in the room.

They remove themselves from their location.

They come in.

We work with them.

We spend a couple of days working on the things that actually drive growth.

Like I think more than anything, whether you're a part of our group or anything else, like those are the two things you need in 2025, accountability and force to take action and create.

And so that's, that's where I'm finding finding value.

I agree.

What are you most excited about this new venture you got, Darren?

Because obviously, look, my, you know, my, um,

Tom Howard, which is one of the most impactful people in, in, in our industry and probably one of the biggest, that has one of the purest minds in our industry.

Um, brought it up to me and he said, hey, Ishmael, you know what the next problem for you is going to be?

And I'm sure you guys are going to bump into it.

Like, what's going to drive you to wake up the next morning after you, you know, like after I saw the money from NextGen, like I still showed up to work and I took on this new thermostat project to be able to keep my mind busy.

But

what drives you to get up every morning and take on the responsibility of mentoring these contractors?

So it's a good question.

And I think, I mean, my real answer is like my kids.

There you go.

You know, I travel a lot.

I am with my kids and I travel a lot.

I have four girls.

Congratulations.

Four girls.

Yeah, man.

Congratulations.

But I think like the decisions I'm making like echo into their lives.

And so like for me, it's like, I've got kids.

My youngest is seven and I want to live a life that's inspiring them to be their best.

And so for me, it's like, what am I doing that does that?

Same with my wife.

right?

The people closest to me.

And then and then it goes from there and my friends and business partners.

So that's on the personal level.

What about the professional level though?

What's going to drive you?

Like, obviously,

all of us are family men and we're, you know, we're, we're God-fearing men.

Yeah.

But what,

what's going to drive you on the professional side to be able to wake up?

And that question goes for you, too.

I would say, I would say I grew up on the farm and it was like, there was just like no option on the farm.

I just, it was work hard.

go to bed, wake up, work hard.

It was just the same thing.

And then once I started doing door-to-door sales, I started thinking, man, there's opportunity.

I can create opportunity from nothing.

And then it was, you know, me and Chris have done several businesses that just didn't work out.

And I know the grind and I know how hard it is.

And so for me, I love helping people skip those steps that are not necessary.

Like the grind, like just struggling is not as necessary as we sometimes want it to be.

And so just helping people jump past those steps and like actually have success.

Like I love it.

I loved it.

I loved our business.

I loved when we had people coming in making a career and their sales, you know, making a sales career, technicians that would come in and get their license and then they're lead techs making great money.

I love people's, I see people, you know, improving their lives and just having success that they didn't think possible.

What about you, Chris?

Yeah, I mean, dude, for me, I'm a visionary and the thing that always drives me is a mission.

And so I think about this consistently and constantly.

And,

you know, I've always known that money isn't the driver.

Money is a derivative.

It's points on the scoreboard and whatnot.

And so, you know, in building businesses, the thing I love is the things that put point notes on the scoreboard, the dribbling, the shooting, the, you know, the passing, the catching.

And, and so, like, for me, it's, it's what really drives and gives me that satisfaction.

You know, I tried retirement for six weeks and it was terrible.

Right.

It drives me nuts.

And, you know, society has lied to each one of us as far as like that there is an accomplishment that will get you completely fulfilled.

There won't, right?

Like we literally the name, the reason we named our company Next Level is that happiness is found in trajectory, in the trends that we're going and going to the next level.

And as long as you're leveling up, like that's where true happiness comes from.

And so our mission at Next Level is designing lives that impact the world, right?

And like what I've always thought about is like, okay, how can I really leave my fingerprint on humanity and really change the world?

You know, I can go and try to be the president of the United States.

I can go and be a governor.

I can go and be a church leader.

I can go and do all these different things.

But at the end of the day, I think as entrepreneurs,

we have a greater level of impact across the world than anything else.

And the reason is because initially when employees and customers come to us, they think it's all about a transaction, all about money, right?

Paycheck, those type of things.

But when we teach them that, hey, look, I can help you level up your whole life, your physical, your economic, your association, your spirituality.

Now you have real impact on a business, on, and it's a ripple effect that impacts communities, that impacts.

And so for me, when I was thinking about those six weeks of like, dude, I got to have purpose, I got to have something else, like it was like, okay, how can I have the greatest impact?

And ultimately, it was working with entrepreneurs and helping them design lives that impact the world.

And so, which really drives our five-year mission of Impact 125, which is to bring an additional $125 billion in annualized revenue through our community.

And

that's our five-year roadmap that we're pushing and we're grinding towards.

It's literally all community-driven because we know that if our community creates $125 billion in revenue, we know we're going to be running at 20 to 25% margins.

And because we've taught these people how to change lives, that dollar amount is going to drastically change the world.

And so like, when you ask like, what drives me, dude, that's it, man.

That gets me excited.

It gets me pumped, get me out of bed in the morning every single day.

It gets me hyped.

Let me, I would love to hear what you, what drives you.

Man,

you know, obviously from the obvious, my four girls do, but dude, I think I get driven by the problem, man.

Like when somebody, when somebody presents a problem or or

something that needs to be fixed,

I get so intertwined on just like I live and breathe it.

Like, you know, I saw an opportunity at this thermostat when

I saw what I could create with it.

And to me, being able to prove out the model behind it and building it and structuring it and taking it world, like to me, taking on a massive, massive problem is what drives me every day.

How do you limit though?

Because there's tons of problems.

How do you limit your focus so that you can really accomplish the end goal?

So I look at the operation as a whole and I look at the operation where the problem is at, right?

And this is for the trades, obviously.

I'm not an expert on anything else.

I love the trades.

I'm going to live and die on the trades.

But I look at the operation as a whole, right?

We have marketing, we have, um, we have personnel, we have sales, we have revenue, like we have everything, right?

And, and, and to me, it's fixing that one problem that still needs fixing, right?

Like marketing.

We're always spending marketing money in the trades, trying to acquire new clients.

Why?

Because we're not retaining them fast enough.

We're always marketing new like an action.

We were spending $1.4 million a month in marketing between billboards and TV and radio and Google and all that, right?

And just acquiring new clients instead of like, what happened to the 450,000 people we just serviced in the last four or five years?

Like, why can't we go, why can't we retain that?

And when I saw that through the thermostat that I'm building, I looked at the alarm company and they had, they had, they have the highest retention in the industry.

They're writing at 94.8% retention.

That is why they don't spend 1.1% of marketing is spent on the alarm company at ADT.com, right?

They spend 1.1% of the revenue on marketing because

that panel has their logo, has their information.

You're always going to go back to them.

Right.

And that, to me, when I saw that gap

in the operation, that's what lit up the fire again.

I love it.

That's Dustin.

What's driving you?

I mean, all those things you guys have said.

And then just one more thing that comes to mind.

There's people counting on us.

Amen.

I have an accountability to my family,

to my coworkers, to my friends, to

the people in my business.

And I hope whoever's listening to this realizes how many people, how many lives are affected by just your group.

I mean if you figure the average employees got a family of four Any hour services any hour group as a as a whole we have over 2,000 employees times four so we have close to 10,000 mouths to feed people that are accounting on us every single day to show up to work and not just show up and break even we have to be profitable and we have to grow if we're not growing we're moving backwards and so for me it's it's just a drive to the accountability that's on my shoulders to perform for the people that expect us to develop a business that's profitable and gross.

Yeah, right.

You hit it right in the head, Dee honestly.

You're probably one of the most underrated operators in the industry, man.

And like all the time that we get to spend together, I'm always learning something from you.

I'm always, you know, trying to see where I can hit you from a different angle, see where I could, you know, grab some substance for you.

But your mind is in the right place, man.

I appreciate that.

I love it.

I love it.

Where can the listeners go to follow you or find out a little bit more about what you're doing?

Look, I have a free social media group that is called Nuvet Networks Group, where I mentor about 7,000 contractors already.

I grew it four years ago.

I did it just to take my mind off, you know, NextGen and all the different things I was doing.

So I kind of did it as a side gig just to be able to take my mind off, you know, what I currently had.

And it's grown to 7,000 contractors.

We're, you know,

so social media, facebook on instagram it's ishmael valdez ceo um but yeah

most most likely you're going to see me with chris and the next level um guys here um helping more contractors out for sure i love it love it how about you justin uh lots of different ways uh my cell phone's on anyhourgroup.com you can track me down there i'm happy to give it to you here if you'd like go ahead look it up on social media cell phone's 801-787-3546

you're all invited to come to any hour services in utah i do tours regularly.

Just let me know you're interested.

Let me know how many people.

We're going to hang out at Top Golf, hit some balls, have some food.

There's nothing better than getting to know people over some chicken wings.

Then we're going to do a shop tour.

We're going to see what's there.

Ishmael, Dustin, appreciate you guys both coming into the studio.

It's been a great one.

Until next time.