#135: "You can't master selling by reading books" Mastering Tonality

Speaker 1 What do you see as like the most like three important things that somebody's got to master?

Speaker 1 I think most salespeople they don't really understand the psychology behind how the brain actually makes decisions.

Speaker 1 Me being in behavioral science and human psychology, like I geeked out on the stuff at university and I studied it like a MOFO.

Speaker 1 With any personality, I'm focused on how do I disarm the prospect where they let their guard down? How do I disarm them where they start to emotionally open up?

Speaker 1 And a lot of it is just strictly their tonality. So tonality and obviously even the structure of the question, right? Yeah, I was still learning skills all the time.

Speaker 1 And the biggest factor that took me from the jump between door-to-door to more B2B high level was mastering tonality.

Speaker 1 Hey guys, in today's episode, we are going to be interviewing Jeremy Miner. Jeremy, as you guys are going to come to find out, is an absolute stud when it comes to sales training.

Speaker 1 In this episode, we dive into the psychology of sales, what it is to really understand tonality. This is something that isn't being taught by any other sales trainer out there.

Speaker 1 You're going to absolutely love this episode. Let's dive in.
What's up, everybody? Welcome to another episode of Next Level Pros Podcast.

Speaker 1 Today, I have the opportunity to be here in beautiful Scottsdale, Arizona.

Speaker 1 with a friend associate but more importantly an incredible businessman mr jeremy miner So, a lot of you guys have seen him across different social media channels.

Speaker 1 He is most well known for training in the sales space, which for me is incredible because I absolutely love the sales aspect of any business.

Speaker 1 That's where I've always just had my fingers on the heartbeat of any business.

Speaker 1 Jeremy, during his 17-year career, he was recognized in the direct selling industry as the 45th highest-earning producer out of more than 108 million salespeople selling anything worldwide.

Speaker 1 That's pretty phenomenal.

Speaker 1 Jeremy's earnings as a commission-only sales rep were multiple seven figures every year. That was after alarms.
After alarms. Yeah, that wasn't happening in the door-to-door space back in the day.

Speaker 1 I'll tell you.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 he owns a company called 7th Level.

Speaker 1 They were ranked as the largest B2C sales training company in the world and the third overall largest sales training company in the world for B2C B2C and B2B combined by the prestigious Selling Power Magazine.

Speaker 1 I know you've gotten several different

Speaker 1 awards. Not grandma.

Speaker 1 Just on annual revenues. I love it.
I love it. And I know you've gotten several different awards.
You've been in the Inc. 500, 5,000.
What was the highest ranking on that?

Speaker 1 I think we didn't turn it in last year, but the year before, I think we were 132nd or something. I know you were like number six.

Speaker 1 We were 12th on Ink 6.

Speaker 1 12th on the Inc. 6.

Speaker 1 Damn it, I I thought you were doing good. 132, 12.
You know, the funny thing is, the year that we got 12th, we would have been fourth the previous year for the same growth.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, and we were sixth for Financial Times. Yeah, is what because Financial Times threw out like a few of the guys that were like acquired and stuff like that.
Hey guys, it's Chris.

Speaker 1 Hey, a lot of you leave comments asking for help. Do me a real quick favor.
Shoot me a text at 509-374-7554. That's 509-374-7554.

Speaker 1 Shoot me a text. I'll answer and help you with whatever you need.
Don't worry, I got you back. Let's go back to the show, baby.

Speaker 1 And we submitted financials in 2021 and 2022, and we thought it was really cool until one day we literally lost a big B2B deal because they looked at that as like, oh, you guys are growing too fast.

Speaker 1 And it started thinking like, oh, I thought like us growing so fast, companies would be like, they must be doing something really good.

Speaker 1 But in larger corporations, that's a little bit of a risk because, as you know, sometimes you grow too fast, you go out of business because you don't know how to run the business. So, right.

Speaker 1 So, they were a little bit in 2023. We're like, we're not submitting to Ink 5000.

Speaker 1 We don't care about the fast thing anymore. It's interesting, right?

Speaker 1 Never thought about it. Yeah.
Interesting.

Speaker 1 It was a pretty big deal. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, yeah. So, guys, I'm excited to have Jeremy on the pod.
Welcome to the show. It's, you know, I'm a big fan of your work.
Love.

Speaker 1 We actually have a sales guy that works with us that that just loves, like he puts you on the highest pedestal. It's like, God, Jeremy Minor.

Speaker 1 All right. We've got to figure out what course he's in.
That's good.

Speaker 1 So I know he did your NLPQ. N APQ, yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 A while back.

Speaker 1 And so he utilizes a lot of your strategies.

Speaker 1 Interesting.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So, Jeremy, you've been building this incredible business in the sales space, which I would say, I mean, for the amount of revenue and the amount of employees, like, is very impressive.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, you know, I'm just the, I'm just the founder. You know, I don't run the business anymore.

Speaker 1 I wouldn't have, I wouldn't say like, you know, just me interviewing you guys on the show, I'm like, okay, these guys have different skills than I would have, right?

Speaker 1 So, you know, do I know how to scale a company to, you know, 100 million a year or 500 million? No, I've never done that, right? Do I know how to train salespeople to sell more?

Speaker 1 Do I know how to recruit top talent? Do I know do those things? Yes. So it's like you said, it's about bringing in the right people where you're weak in and hiring them for their strengths, right?

Speaker 1 Or making them your partner for their strengths. And that really causes you to grow.
That's interesting. So what would you say?

Speaker 1 So obviously you're more centered on the sales side, but from a business standpoint, like what are some of the bottlenecks that you're working on and you're hoping to get you to the next level?

Speaker 1 I think, you know, we're at a level where it's like in revenue, you know, and I still compare my, I always compare myself to like Vivint.

Speaker 1 So I always still feel like a small ant, you know, like, oh, 160 employees, like so tiny compared to the space that we came from, you know what I'm saying? So, but for our industry, that's big.

Speaker 1 The biggest thing that we're working on is as we're scaling, you know, we're bringing in department heads. And sometimes, you know, you'll have some department heads that you fully trust.
Yep.

Speaker 1 Every dismal every decision they make is just gold, it's money, and it works.

Speaker 1 Then you have some other department heads where maybe they got into that position and they weren't as qualified in a position, and some of the decisions set you back a little bit.

Speaker 1 So it's finding that balance between

Speaker 1 still being able to run the business and scale and take a little bit of risk compared to being so corporate that you just don't take any risk and it's more slow growth. So it's finding that balance.

Speaker 1 Yeah, for sure. So, you know, obviously you have the department heads in place.
Like, what does the rest of your management structure look like?

Speaker 1 Where are you fitting in it? Are you off to the side? So

Speaker 1 I'm the founder of the majority shareholder. We have a CEO, right? Our business partner.

Speaker 1 We have CFO, obviously. We have managing director, senior vice president, COO.
We have the, you know, the C-level executives. And then below them,

Speaker 1 and some, we have a VP or director of those, like director of fulfillment.

Speaker 1 Above them would be the vice president of fulfillment.

Speaker 1 You know, same thing. It's basically, you know, we have a CRO, you know, so.
So do you still consider yourself like the visionary that you're helping like drive the vision and direction?

Speaker 1 I would say the vision. I would say, yeah, I mean, I'm a base.
I'm the visionary of the company. Yep.
And your CEO is more of the integrator. More of the integrator.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 More of the integrator, the business guy that handles that kind of stuff. So when you have an idea,

Speaker 1 they're going to go punch numbers with the CFO. Does it, you know, sounds like a great idea, but, you know, we punch the numbers like maybe it's not so profitable for that.

Speaker 1 So I think, yeah, you have to have that. Or like, you know, when you first started, you're like, hey, I got all these great ideas.
You're the visionary. Like, just go spend, spend, spend.

Speaker 1 But then you don't realize, like, oh, it's not so profitable what I just did. So, what does this business look like in five, ten years? Like, where do you, where are you trying to land?

Speaker 1 So, when I started seventh level, I knew we would never be just sales training. Now, on the front end, we'll always be sales training because that's what we're known at.

Speaker 1 That's where we've gotten so much results. On the back end, though, we have the assets now.
So, in the third quarter of 2025, we are now going to have a division that's a recruiting staffing agency.

Speaker 1 Awesome. On the company side.
Because we probably, you know, we have a big Facebook group, Sales Revolution, about 160,000 people growing every day. And we probably have,

Speaker 1 I'm not exaggerating, probably close to 100 employers a day that try to post in there like, hey, looking for 10 reps for a medical device, looking for, could be solar, whatever.

Speaker 1 And so they come to us, like literally offering to pay us for like certified reps in our training programs for their industries and we just don't have an infrastructure to even offer that yet.

Speaker 1 We have an email list of over a million salespeople. Yeah, so a done a done for you agency from a recruiting standpoint is no brainer.

Speaker 1 It's not like we have to start doing cool and staffing and recruiting that's a huge industry we already train in. So we already understand that space like the background.

Speaker 1 We train tons of companies in that. So it's just kind of a natural fit to have that back end model, kind of like a grant card owner has sales training, but then real estate.

Speaker 1 My buddy Pace Morby, you know, selling coaching how to do real estate, but then on the back end, every

Speaker 1 client brings him deals and they split them 50-50, you know, so it's that back-end revenue.

Speaker 1 So we have, we're just, uh, you know, we've created the assets for that the last five years, and now we're bringing the right people to run that. It's exciting.

Speaker 1 So, seventh level, what's what's the meaning of seventh level? You know, it's interesting. Uh, I've only had a few people ever asked me that.

Speaker 1 So, uh, so I went to UBU, Utah University, and my major is behavioral science, human psychology, but I minored in world religions.

Speaker 1 And so in every world religion, you know, I'm LVS, like you guys, every world religion. So I'm talking about, I'm not talking about religion now, I'm talking about like ancient Christianity.

Speaker 1 So maybe from, you know, 30 AD to maybe 350 AD. I'm talking about Islam at the beginning.
I'm talking about, you know, even Buddhism. I'm talking about Hinduism.

Speaker 1 I'm talking about even religions in Mesopotamia.

Speaker 1 They had this one core belief that pretty much it was a universal belief that there were different levels of heaven, okay, not like one heaven and hell, like a lot of religions believe now.

Speaker 1 And at the highest level, the seventh level, like look at that, it's crazy. God dwelt in the seventh level.
And to attain that level, you had to be perfected like God.

Speaker 1 You had to overcome the world, you know, do those type of things. And so that's where I came up with the concept,

Speaker 1 seventh level of communication, perfecting your communication skills.

Speaker 1 We're going to have to have a separate conversation about religion off camera because I have some very interesting beliefs that probably differ a little bit from

Speaker 1 exactly

Speaker 1 the way I was raised. I'm an active member of the LDS faith.

Speaker 1 But yeah,

Speaker 1 it is interesting when you go and you study these world religions and really able to identify different truths that come from. Yeah, I think there's every religion has a lot of truth in it for sure.

Speaker 1 Mixed in with some man-made stuff, including our own faith. You know, a little bit of man-made stuff here and there, too.

Speaker 1 So I'm all about talking about, you know, I believe in some crazy things, too, that might be outside the norm, but I think that's good. And whether they're right or not, I guess we'll find out.

Speaker 1 At the end of the day, you know, we'll all find out. Yeah, yeah, happy to talk with you.
Like I said, a little bit more offline. It might not be very entertaining for the people, but

Speaker 1 I've got a question for you. So, look at the industry, the sales industry.

Speaker 1 What businesses are needing salespeople the most? And then, as a salesperson, what are the best opportunities that you see if you're looking for a good opportunity this is a this is a hard one

Speaker 1 for me because we I mean we're in every vertical at this point in the in the subcategories like you know Tommy's vertical like home improvement home services you got you know garages doors windows carpet countertops everything and that's a huge industry where we see a ton of our clients like crush it right and you would even think like you know oh cabinet salesperson is making 500 grand a year but there are a lot of people out there that do that.

Speaker 1 Solar is a huge opportunity. It's a big space we train in.
Life insurance, huge. Whereas a lot of life insurance agents might suck and don't make any money.

Speaker 1 We're like, well, the industry is doing trillions of dollars a year. So it's based on their skill level.

Speaker 1 Whereas door-to-door is a huge opportunity. You might have a lot of people that don't do well at it.
but still huge industry. So what's the difference? Skill level.
For sure. Medical device sales.

Speaker 1 I mean, I could keep going on.

Speaker 1 It's a hard one to answer because most of it, unless you're selling $10 magazine

Speaker 1 subscriptions door-to-door, is based on really, your earnings are going to be based on your skill level. Yep.

Speaker 1 So would you say there's like a ticket size that if you have a ticket size of at least this, there's a level where you'll make... I see a lot of truth to that.

Speaker 1 Also, but I could sell, I've got, you know, we have life insurance reps in our training program that do over seven figures a year in commissions. Wow.
And

Speaker 1 you're selling $150 a month life insurance. So are these guys just figuring out how to get to one-to-many versus a one-on-one type sale? A lot of it is just one-to-one.

Speaker 1 And then maybe they start building out teams and we teach them how to recruit and they get overrides as well. So it's such a hard one because then, you know, we have solar salespeople.

Speaker 1 You know, as you know, you might have a solar salesperson that can't sell anything. And then you got a guy come in that makes 1.5 million commissions the next year.

Speaker 1 Is it the industry or is it the skill level? Sometimes there's a little bit of both. But I think higher higher ticket stuff on average is a better opportunity.

Speaker 1 You just have to have a higher skill level to be able to sell it. You know, it's different than going from like pest control to solar.
Right.

Speaker 1 You have to have a higher sales ability. Yeah, $500

Speaker 1 revenue or ticket value versus $48,000. Exactly.

Speaker 1 So I would say higher ticket.

Speaker 1 I don't want to give a straight jacket interpretation of that because I see life insurance others, but I would say higher ticket is going to be a better opportunity. Got it.
Most industries.

Speaker 1 So when you talk about skill level, like where are, what do you see as like the most like three important things that somebody's got to master?

Speaker 1 I think most salespeople,

Speaker 1 they don't really understand the psychology behind how the brain actually makes decisions.

Speaker 1 So me being in behavioral science and human psychology, like I geeked out on the stuff at university and I studied it like a mofo.

Speaker 1 So when I, when I first started in DoorToor, like you guys did, when I knock on a door, if they slammed the door, said no, most reps in DoorDoor would be like oh you know this neighborhood's bad or they're all broke or they have a bad mindset but I'm I was thinking like oh like I said like what did I say or what did I like do there that triggered them to react that way right because I wanted to like get inside their mind right because I figured like if I can learn what triggers somebody to say no or what triggers I want to think it over or what triggers I need to talk to my spouse and if I could learn how to like get rid of that out of their mind by default I'm just gonna sell more so I always focused on like how do I prevent these objections from happening rather than like how do I handle them because if I did get an objection I'm like oh I did something wrong upstream that triggered them to think this way does that make sense and so I triggered you know it's like Tom Brady right it's like in the NFL the more interceptions you throw, the more fumbles you lose, less likely you win the game.

Speaker 1 So I always looked at sales the same way, like the less mistakes I make, right?

Speaker 1 I'm unlikely to lose the sale. The more mistakes I make, I'm likely to not get the sale.
So I just, I thought about selling differently.

Speaker 1 So I think the first thing is understanding the psychology behind why a person buys or doesn't buy.

Speaker 1 Would you say that has to do with like, so what I teach is like the four different types of buyers, like the buying personalities, right?

Speaker 1 You have aggressive and social and different, like, do you think

Speaker 1 that's a lot of fun?

Speaker 1 I think there's a lot of truth to that. I focus more on like with any personality, I'm focused on how do I disarm the prospect where they let their guard down?

Speaker 1 And that's with any person, especially with an A-type, right? Because, you know, the A-type try to bowl you over. So like, how do I disarm them where they start to emotionally open up?

Speaker 1 And a lot of it is just strictly with your tonality. Right.
So like, I would, let's say the prospect would be like, yeah, come on in or whatever. And I literally would do this all the time.

Speaker 1 I'd be like, now, hold on, hold on. Before I come in, like.
You're not going to get mad at me if I can't end up helping you, are you? Oh, God, we would never get mad at you.

Speaker 1 See how I'm triggering them to like pull me in because I'm using like this concern like tone, right? And they're like, oh God, I would never.

Speaker 1 Or I'd be like, no, hold on, you're not going to get angry at me if I don't take off my shoes. Like, I don't want to, oh, we would never get angry at you.

Speaker 1 So I'm just triggering them to like come to my side and pull me in. So by the time I get to anything, they're just already bought in.
So a lot of your tonality.

Speaker 1 So tonality and obviously even the structure of the question, right? Yeah. Hey, guys, it's Chris.
Hey, a lot of you leave comments asking for help. Do me a real quick favor.

Speaker 1 Shoot me a text at 509-374-7554. That's 509-374-7554.

Speaker 1 Shoot me a text. I'll answer and help you with whatever you need.
Don't worry, I got you back. Let's go back to the show, baby.

Speaker 1 And it's not even because we, you know, when we train any PQ, you know, how to ask these questions, we see a lot of new clients where they come in and they're like, I've just got to ask these questions on my script.

Speaker 1 I've got to memorize these canned lines. And like,

Speaker 1 that's good.

Speaker 1 You need a script, but you need to understand how to be flexible with set script because you have to learn, like, once you understand, like, okay, I need to ask, let's say we call them connection questions to take the prospect out of price or cost-based thinking, immediately start to get them to results-based thinking.

Speaker 1 And I also need to get them to let their guard down.

Speaker 1 So. what if the prospect tells me something different from my first question? Do I need to ask this next question there?

Speaker 1 Not necessarily, because then it sounds almost like I'm scripted, like I didn't really listen to what they just said, right?

Speaker 1 So you have to learn how to take what the prospect says and be able to tweak your next question and tie in what they just said to that question.

Speaker 1 And if you don't understand the psychology behind where you're at in that sales process, you're just going to sound scripted, monotone, like a salesperson, and then their guard is up and they stay surface level.

Speaker 1 So as a salesperson,

Speaker 1 when was your biggest jump or what was your biggest jump in commissions, like from from one year over the other? Yeah, so my my best summer doing alarms I managed an office.

Speaker 1 Okay, we did I think we did a couple thousand accounts which back in the day that was like that was crazy.

Speaker 1 I think we were the second office in any company ever done a couple thousand and that was with less than 20 guys

Speaker 1 16 guys at the end but the you know average guys doing 150 180 that's wild you know it's good because we I just train them all the time I go door to door and I

Speaker 1 myself as a manager I installed three and I think 380 some accounts that summer myself like installs but summer. That was my best.

Speaker 1 Now that was back, God, I don't know what you guys were getting paid, but that was me negotiating. You're probably making $350, $400 a deal.
$480 a deal. And then

Speaker 1 when I got with Apex, which later became Bibbit, when me and Jared, like half of, sorry, Pinnacle, half of the company with us over to Bibbin, I think

Speaker 1 we had to sign an NDA. I'm probably out of the NDA by now.
It was like $6.50 a deal. And we were just like, oh my God, we're rich, $6.50 a deal.
This is crazy. It was like $80 or $100 in override.

Speaker 1 I don't know what they get paid now.

Speaker 1 But so that was a jump. But then I just got, you know, Jared ended up staying as a regional manager.
I just wanted to get out because I was tired of it. I had three kids at the time.

Speaker 1 I was like moving around every summer. I'm just like, dude, like, I've got these skills.
I need to go do something else. And you went and did what? I got into B2B enterprise.

Speaker 1 So I started selling debt relief services.

Speaker 1 So now I went from door to door selling to consumers, right, for what, 50 bucks a month or whatever is for a three or five year contract.

Speaker 1 same day installs.

Speaker 1 To then I have to go learn how to cold call to companies, some, you know, some Fortune 1000, but primarily more SMB, okay, like companies that were doing anywhere from, let's say, 20 million on the low end to maybe a couple hundred, two, three hundred million a year on the top end, some, some larger companies, but mainly that.

Speaker 1 So, you know, getting them out of debt and stuff like that, cold calling. So these were much bigger deals, longer sales cycles.

Speaker 1 So I had to learn, but the same concepts were the cases door-to-door how do I interrupt their pattern on a cold call rather than the door so I just you know I had to learn that okay and then that next year I made close to 800 grand in commissions you made 800 grand and then you you got up to like multiple seven figures yeah then the next year I went to like 1.3 million a year then I went to like two million a year so what was like the biggest thing that bridged you from 800 grand to 200 million or 2 million like what I mean as a as a single sales rep were you managing teams at this time and getting overrides it

Speaker 1 okay so I didn't want to get into management right so I made way less right so so what like help identify what got you there I would say just I was still learning skills all the time and the biggest factor that that took me from the jump between door-to-door to more B2B high level was mastering tonality

Speaker 1 like not kidding and it sounds simple because salespeople always come to us like what's the best closing line how do I close them I'm like whoa whoa whoa

Speaker 1 nobody makes a buying decision when you use some option close at the end. You want to install Tuesday or what? Like, that's not when they decide to buy.

Speaker 1 If they say Tuesday, that means they already decided to buy before you asked that question. It's not like that caused them to buy, right?

Speaker 1 So I had to, I really, because it's not really taught in door-to-door tonality, right? So when I was in door-to-door, though, I started, I hired an acting coach in Hollywood.

Speaker 1 And in the offseason, I would literally fly out there every other weekend and spend a Saturday. I paid this guy a lot of money to teach me tonality.
So we focus on the five core tonalities.

Speaker 1 There's a curious tone, there's a confused tone, right? Like you're not understanding something, so you draw them in in certain contexts. You have a challenging tone.

Speaker 1 Once you build a gap, you build trust. You're not going to challenge somebody the very beginning.
Then you have a concerned tone, a tone that shows more empathy, right?

Speaker 1 And then you have a playful tone, right? Now, there's subcategories of all this tone. There's like the familiar tone when you cold call.
So I had to learn like how to become familiar, right?

Speaker 1 So the prospect in B2B, and I suppose I'm like, you know, XYZ, you know, company, this is John or whatever. Like, yeah, hey, John, it's, it's Jeremy, Jeremy Minor with XYZ company.
And I kept going.

Speaker 1 And what does that do in their brain? Like, who's

Speaker 1 how do I know this guy? Yes, because I sound familiar. Yeah.
Right. It's like if somebody calls you, you're like, it's Amy, Amy Smith, how are you, Daryl? And you're like, I'm great.
How are you?

Speaker 1 Versus, like, hey, is Daryl? Is this Daryl? Yeah, Daryl, this is Jeremy with XYZ Company. The reason why I called you.
So it's a pattern rupt. So I had to, the principle was there.

Speaker 1 So, but I had to learn more tonality, like the familiar tone. And so you attribute this to this acting coach.
Was there anybody else that

Speaker 1 taught you tonality?

Speaker 1 I just kept learning tonality from just different people.

Speaker 1 You don't learn tonality in books. The biggest fault that salespeople,

Speaker 1 the biggest thing that stops them is they think they're going to master sales by reading books.

Speaker 1 And we've got a couple, you know, we've got Barnes Noble bestseller books. But I always tell them, like, look, a book is an introduction.
It's an introduction.

Speaker 1 You can't master selling by reading books because they're just words. And you know why you can't master? I'll give you an example.

Speaker 1 This is really clear. What's your favorite song? That if I said,

Speaker 1 sing that song, you could almost sing it word for word. Like literally.

Speaker 1 I love a lot of things, Tim McGraw, so don't take the girl. Yeah, God.
So you sing that down. What's yours? My favorite song? Yeah.

Speaker 1 You'd almost sing it word for word. I mean,

Speaker 1 I don't know why I started thinking of Garth Brooks, but I was more when I was young. Okay, so let's say a Garth Brooks song.
You just start singing off the top of your head. You love the song.

Speaker 1 You've heard it.

Speaker 1 It's in your subconscious, so it comes to your conscious.

Speaker 1 What's your favorite book? You've read multiple times. I mean, I love a lot of different books.

Speaker 1 I would say Atomic Habits okay and you've read that what about yours outwitting the devil okay so you've read several times for the song several times

Speaker 1 there's about 330 words in an average song and in one page of the average book it's about 330 words

Speaker 1 can you recite word for word any page of your favorite book

Speaker 1 no just a couple concepts but that's it yet Your favorite song has the same amount of words, and you recite it word for word. Why? Tonality.

Speaker 1 The tonality and the melody causes your brain to retain the information.

Speaker 1 That's why salespeople, they think they're going to buy a book for 27 bucks and like quadruple their sales, but they can't retain it because there's no tone, there's no melody.

Speaker 1 Even when you're doing the book audios, you can't really teach tonality in a book audio because like the way it's set up, you have to basically, that's you, the...

Speaker 1 person you have to read from the book word for word right so you can't teach tonality that's why you have to have video courses you have to have in-person You have to have virtual.

Speaker 1 And that causes your brain to retain it because they hear the tonality. So you would attribute tonality as like the number one skill that a salesperson needs to.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because your tone is how the prospect interprets why you're asking the questions, like the meaning behind your questions, right? I love it.

Speaker 1 So there's not a lot of sales trainers that talk about it. I know Jordan Belford talks a little bit about tonality, but for me,

Speaker 1 I can have the worst script ever. And if I master tonality, I'm going to outsell those reps that have, let's say, I write the script for them, the best script, and they don't know tonality.

Speaker 1 I outsell them five to one just with the tonality.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, I've studied a lot of sales gurus, read all the books and everything else, and very few people address it.

Speaker 1 Some live trainings, a little bit, but it's more of like mirror the customer, right? Like that, that is addressing tonality, but not in the same exact way. Yeah, and I like mirroring.

Speaker 1 The only problem with mirroring that I found, this is just my personal thoughts, is that when you're talking to a friend that you trust,

Speaker 1 would it be awkward for you if they started repeating back everything you said?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So that's why I don't understand why salespeople think that if they repeat back things that the prospect says, that the prospect is somehow going to trust them because it doesn't sound like a natural conversation.

Speaker 1 It sounds salesy.

Speaker 1 So what I learned how to do is to get the prospects to mirror me.

Speaker 1 So a lot of people are like, you got to mirror the prospect. Like if they move in, you move in.
I'm like, well, why not learn how to get them to do what you're doing?

Speaker 1 Because then they're qualifying to you rather than you qualifying to them. Because I always say, who has the problems? The prospect or you? The prospect has the problems.

Speaker 1 You are the one that solved them. So why are you qualifying to them?

Speaker 1 I think one of the things I learned early on in my sales career was I would mirror the customer and then I would have it shift to where then they became they were mirror me.

Speaker 1 That's why why you and that's when I knew that I had the control or I had the they were starting to qualify to you. And what you guys were saying earlier is you were detached from the outcome.

Speaker 1 The biggest thing is when you get to a certain skill level, you are far more detached because

Speaker 1 you're in control of the conversation. The prospect feels like they're in control though, but you are really the one in control.

Speaker 1 And a lot of people would be like, oh, you know, NEPQ, it's just, it's not aggressive enough.

Speaker 1 I'm like, actually, it's the most aggressive methodology out there because the prospect never feels like they were sold. Yeah, so when you're aggressive the prospect feels the pressure.

Speaker 1 They feel like they're being sold. That's why they get triggered.
That's why they throw out so many objections.

Speaker 1 But if I can prevent most objections from happening because they don't feel like they were being sold, they almost feel like they're trying to convince you to let them pay you to solve their problems.

Speaker 1 That's pretty damn aggressive because they don't feel like they're ever sold. It's like the Chinese, like the art of war, right?

Speaker 1 It's like they win the the war by getting the country to self-destruct from the inside without firing a shot. That's the most aggressive war.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah,

Speaker 1 in our organizations, one of the things I always help is like, we call it identifying the pain, and it's just through questions, right? And really like helping the customer.

Speaker 1 identify where they actually sit so they're looking for the solution. Like they're just begging for the solution.

Speaker 1 And it's getting them to be open enough to tell you their pain because I think a lot of questions that every industry asks, you know, that are just the standard questions, like the prospects know where those questions are leading.

Speaker 1 So they kind of go surface level because it's like, you know, the water filter sales guy that cold calls, you're like, do you like drinking water?

Speaker 1 Yes. Like, that's a dumb question, right? So instantly, you're triggered.
Like, it doesn't make any sense, right?

Speaker 1 So it's just, it's, it's, it's asking the question, but it's, it's kind of like reversing the frame.

Speaker 1 So like, let's say if I sold, you know, let's say if I sold life insurance, you know, a life insurance salesperson, standard question would be like, hey,

Speaker 1 what are you looking for in a policy? Or, you know,

Speaker 1 what's an issue you're having that caused you to come to us? And well, most prospects know where that leads to.

Speaker 1 So I might lead with a different question, not the first question, might be like, okay, so help me understand. You've already got this $60,000 word policy.
I mean,

Speaker 1 what's caused you to feel like that's not going to be enough?

Speaker 1 Well, I mean, it's not enough because now they're defending themselves on why it's not enough and why they need more.

Speaker 1 See, I'm getting them to defend themselves and qualify to me why they need me, whereas other salespeople are trying to convince the prospect now is convincing me why they want what I have.

Speaker 1 You know, it's interesting you're saying this in regards to sales. I think this applies also to recruiting.
Yeah. Right? You want the people to defend why they should be a part of your vision.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And your company. Rather than trying to outpay the next highest bidder.
It just doesn't make any sense. So it's a very applicable principle.

Speaker 1 But it's also the tone and how you ask that. Because notice I'm kind of using like kind of a skeptical, like, why am I even here tone compared to most salespeople?

Speaker 1 They'd be like, so I don't, I don't understand. Like, you've got the $80,000 policy.
What's causing you to feel like it's not going to be enough? It's just like monotone flat.

Speaker 1 It doesn't trigger any emotion. Right.
But I'm like, I'm not understanding. Like,

Speaker 1 you've already got the $80,000 work policy.

Speaker 1 What's causing you to feel like that's not going to be enough?

Speaker 1 Which is beautiful because,

Speaker 1 yeah, it gets the customer to defend why they're on the phone or talking with you.

Speaker 1 But I think more importantly, as you already brought up, it detaches you from the end result, right? Like the customer doesn't feel like

Speaker 1 that you're just trying to sell me, right? And which I believe is like one of the biggest mistakes that salespeople make is like so, like, they are so scared of the no, right?

Speaker 1 That they will do anything to get a maybe or even a yes. Yeah.
I want to think it over. Yeah, yeah, the maybe, right?

Speaker 1 Think it over the be they're just like it in solar you know when solar salespeople companies would come to us they'd ask all these yes questions to get them to always say yes i'm like those are really good questions however the prospect knows where those lead and so that's why they're they're like clamming up at the door or virtual so you know let's say if i'm finding out about their bill a lot of solar sales be like oh your bill is really high right with all the rate hikes and even if they really they are the most prospects unless they're lay downs would be like they're not that bad and they're good because you're like upplaying something, which they know why.

Speaker 1 And so they downplay it. So we were teaching sort of like, and this is a little bit in the conversation.
So tell me a little bit about your bill.

Speaker 1 I know a lot of the year it's pretty low, but what have they been making you pay lately?

Speaker 1 And so I'm downplaying it, and then I'm saying, what have they been making you, making you, making you pay lately? Like, I'm concerned. See, that tone, the shift in the tone.

Speaker 1 Like, tell me about your bill. I know a lot of the year it's pretty low, but what have they been making you pay lately? See, I'm downplaying it so they upplay it in their brain.
Right, right.

Speaker 1 It's beautiful.

Speaker 1 Listening to you, I know one of your top students. Oh, who's that? Tony Bianco? Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 I actually know. Tony was one of our first 500 clients, literally.
I interviewed him on

Speaker 1 a podcast a couple years ago. He's great.
Like I said, he sounds so much like you.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 he mimics the tonality for sure.

Speaker 1 Does a really good job. We're huge on tonality, right? Because like I said,

Speaker 1 that's how the prospect is interpreting the meaning behind why you're asking them something.

Speaker 1 So if I'm like, if somebody's on the fence and they're just not moving forward, and this could be any industry, I might lean and be like, hey,

Speaker 1 can I ask you something? It's like concern tone, very soft, right? Lower the tone. They're not going to say no.
They're like, yeah, sure. What's going on? What,

Speaker 1 it's off the record. I'm not going to go post it on Facebook.
What's really holding you back?

Speaker 1 But it's the tone. It's that concern tone that shows empathy.
Because if I'm like, hey, let me ask you a question, like, what's really holding you back? Oh, I don't know. It's just a big thing.

Speaker 1 It's interesting.

Speaker 1 I teach something very similar. It's a little bit different.
It's asking for permission to slap them.

Speaker 1 And essentially,

Speaker 1 what I teach is I say, hey, is it right if I broke down with you for a second? Like, is it right if I shoot you straight? Yeah, because now you're like real. Right, right.

Speaker 1 And all of a sudden, the... Right.
Whenever you ask for permission of this type of thing, it's like,

Speaker 1 fly through.

Speaker 1 And it's not even to ask a question, like, hey, can I shoot you straight real quick? Yeah, and then

Speaker 1 like, I don't think that's your real concern, yeah, right? Like, and like, everything you've told me, right? Like, it's, it's one of the biggest things that helped transition my sales.

Speaker 1 Like, whenever my guys and my ladies that do sales, yeah,

Speaker 1 uh, just remove that and ask for permission, it completely changes. It's so true because a lot of salespeople are like, hey, let me ask you, and they just bulldoze.
Right. Right.

Speaker 1 And you as a prospect, you know, like, if you're bulldozed, you're kind of, you're resistant, right? And so are the prospects. But if you ask your mission, like, hey,

Speaker 1 can I ask you something? Nobody's going to say no. No, you cannot.
But it's how you ask it in that tone, right?

Speaker 1 So if they call, like, you know, hey, we really liked your presentation, but, you know, now's not a good time. Right.
You know, most salespeople are like, well, why is it not a good time?

Speaker 1 And like, try, you said you needed it, blah, blah, blah. And they just argue and then it's over.
Numbers game. I might be like, yeah, that's not a problem.

Speaker 1 Can I ask you something before we get off the phone? So I'm selling the exit. Selling the exit.
Yeah, sure, go ahead.

Speaker 1 How can I communicate to you that you might be making a mistake without you getting upset with me? Nobody's going to say, you can't.

Speaker 1 See, now I'm opening them up, but I'm using a concerned tone, a tone that shows empathy. If I used a curious tone, it wouldn't land.
I love it.

Speaker 1 Let's shift gears.

Speaker 1 I love this, like, just as far as sales skills and development, but I think there's another aspect to sales that some people talk about, some don't. But just like the mentality,

Speaker 1 like

Speaker 1 what mental frames are you creating like internally?

Speaker 1 Because it's one thing to have the skill to sell, and it's a completely different thing to like hold yourself disciplined and not be satisfied and everything else.

Speaker 1 Let's talk about a little bit of that. My mindset when I was in sales, from

Speaker 1 very first door I knocked on to even now, is

Speaker 1 I don't view selling as something that you do to someone.

Speaker 1 I I believe it's something you do for someone. And it's a big mental shift, right?

Speaker 1 Because when I was on the doors and they're like, yeah, you know, whatever, we get into it and they don't buy or whatever. I'd be like, oh, sorry, I couldn't help you.

Speaker 1 And I just go on to the next door. Like, I literally didn't even think about it right after that.
It's like Tom Brady throws an interception. He just goes back.

Speaker 1 He doesn't think about it 10 seconds later. He just goes to the next, you know, the next play when he gets the ball after that, whatever.

Speaker 1 So I think you have to have a mindset of like, you don't necessarily really care if the prospect doesn't buy because it has no impact on you. You're not the one that has a problem.

Speaker 1 So, yeah, removing your identity from the situation, they're not attacking you. They're just saying no to the offer or whatever.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's just like, but I would always, I'd go back like, okay, but what did I say? What did I not ask? Because they had problems. Yep.
I could solve those. So the missing link was me.
Right.

Speaker 1 Not them. I never blame the prospect.
Never. I think the kiss of death for salespeople is blaming the leads, blaming the prospect.
I always blame myself. What did I say?

Speaker 1 What did I not ask that caused them to react that way, that caused them not to buy? So what kept you going? So, you know, one of my, what I would call elite superpowers is not being satisfied, right?

Speaker 1 Like, because I think that's probably the kiss of death for most elite salespeople, right? Like, because you go and you start making 800 grand a year.

Speaker 1 $800,000 a year as a salesperson for any product is considered elite, right? Like, and that is phenomenal.

Speaker 1 And so to go from 800 grand to 2 million a year, there had to be a mental shift that kept you going. What was that?

Speaker 1 To me, to me, and I, because I played high school sports and played college baseball. So to me, like, I was very competitive.
Now, I'm not a person that's going to talk about that.

Speaker 1 I like to keep that to myself. It's like an internal driver.
Like, I'm not going to be like, oh, we did this, we do that. Like, I'm just going to keep that to myself.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, I don't know who said it. Steve Martin or like become so good that they can't ignore you.
That's just how I grew up as a kid because I grew up up on a cattle ranch.

Speaker 1 My parents weren't wealthy. Nothing was ever given to me.

Speaker 1 You know, playing football and baseball in high school, I wasn't the most gifted, but I was extremely competitive and I would outlearn other people.

Speaker 1 So my batting stance, I would have better techniques because I'd spend more time on it, right?

Speaker 1 I'd analyze different pitches coming from the player's hand compared to other people who just get up there and hit or not hit right they didn't care so to me it was all about commitment to being number one i could never be number two.

Speaker 1 And sales was the same way. That's one of the biggest reasons why I left alarms my last year, because I started getting to a point where I was like,

Speaker 1 this is too easy. It's boring.
I don't even care if I'm the number one rep anymore. And that's when you know, like, I need to go do something else.

Speaker 1 And that's why I wanted to get into a completely different industry. And everybody told me.
at Apex and my friends at Penn are like, oh, you'll be back next year. You'll be back.

Speaker 1 You can't make this type of money outside of door-to-door. There's no way.
And that was like a chip on my shoulder. It's like, oh, really?

Speaker 1 I'm just going to freaking move back to Missouri and you'll never hear from me again.

Speaker 1 And they never did. And this made way more money.
I love it. This actually brings up another aspect.

Speaker 1 One thing I've found with most successful salespeople is that they have painful moments in their lives, whether it's little words that they hear or whatnot, that they draw upon to stick to the course, to keep working, to push.

Speaker 1 Like, what are some of those painful moments in your life that you use even today to draw on to keep it rocking? Yeah, because so I I went to become a psychologist.

Speaker 1 I also want to ask you why.

Speaker 1 I was just fascinated. My first year I was like physical education major because I was playing sports.
But then I started to realize like, oh, they don't make any money.

Speaker 1 So I need to do something different. And I was always fascinated with the mind and the way the brain works because it's always like, I wanted to get into the pitcher's mind.
Like I wanted to see.

Speaker 1 what was going what was he thinking like look him in the eyes and like see what he was thinking because a lot of times I could like pick up like what type of pitch he was going to do like real quick my my eyes were just like that and I played center field so if you're out do you play baseball I play baseball what's your position

Speaker 1 second base usually yeah okay so don't have second base is harder but like out in center field you can literally see where the pitch is going outside up down so it's like you get a jump on the ball like you're already moving towards like when you start seeing the pitch come out of a hand so In my mind, like I was always fascinated with just everything, why things happened.

Speaker 1 So when I got into sales, I'm like well why did they give me that I want to think it over like I was thinking why did they tell me they need to talk to their spouse like I wanted to understand why they thought that why they didn't buy and so to me it was fascinating just to learn about the brain and and why it made sense and I had a uh uh one of my wasn't like my uncle's best friend or something was a famous psychologist and he was charging like a thousand dollars an hour per session was really really good got big results and so I'm like I didn't even make money you know I'm not gonna go pro what am I gonna do and that's why I get into that.

Speaker 1 But as a psychologist, going back to this,

Speaker 1 your chip on the shoulder. I believe everybody has a chip on their shoulder.
Some people just don't activate it.

Speaker 1 My chip on my shoulder, and a lot of it comes from, as you as a child, from the ages of four to about 13.

Speaker 1 That's where your whole worldview usually is shaped by the people you're around, maybe the church you go to, maybe what you watch on TV. Kids now influenced by influencers on TikTok.

Speaker 1 That's their worldview, okay, which is dangerous. So as a kid, my stepdad lost his job.
He became disabled. He got lupus.
It went from like a middle-class family to like broke and poor.

Speaker 1 And my mom had to go become a waitress because she didn't, and she had to go back to college. And we had, there was five of us boys.
And so around the age 11, we became very poor.

Speaker 1 And I remember going to baseball practice, still remember this. And my parents couldn't afford the Nike cretes anymore.
And I had some brand from like Walmart or something.

Speaker 1 I just remember feeling so stupid, right? And I'm just like, I'm never going to feel poor.

Speaker 1 And so from that day forward, like something, I don't know, something shifted, but I'm just like, it was like I was, I was afraid of like ever being poor.

Speaker 1 And probably until like my early 30s, until I went to like Landmark Forum, I didn't know why I was so motivated to succeed, but it was like a fear of loss.

Speaker 1 Like, I want to be successful so I'm never feel poor again. And so when I, if you ever, you guys ever went to landmark forum? It's really good.

Speaker 1 It's like, it just kind of helps you understand, it's personal value. It helps you understand why you do what you do.
I've heard about it. I've never seen it.
Yeah, it's really good.

Speaker 1 And so then I'm like, okay, well,

Speaker 1 I don't have to want to be successful because I'm afraid of being poor. I need to switch that.
And I want to be successful because I want to help more people. I want to be able to have more impact.

Speaker 1 And so it was a big shift for me. But everybody has a chip.
Just most people don't activate it. Hey guys, it's Chris.
Hey, a lot of you leave comments asking for help. Do me a real quick favor.

Speaker 1 Shoot me a text at 509-374-7554. That's 509-374-7554.

Speaker 1 Shoot me a text. I'll answer and help you with whatever you need.
Don't worry, I got you back. Let's go back to the show, baby.
Yeah,

Speaker 1 I think we all have something.

Speaker 1 I think that's been one of my

Speaker 1 also superpowers is being able to draw on different chips or different scenarios from my life or whatnot.

Speaker 1 Like, you know, I had an instance my junior year where I should have been the starting quarterback and ended up kind kind of what I felt like it was being taken from me and I had no control over.

Speaker 1 I did everything that the coaches said that would

Speaker 1 validate there or whatnot.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I had a decision to make in that point in my life where I had to completely shift like who I was to be able to attain the goal that I had.

Speaker 1 And for a long time, I drew off of that painful moment and then my bankruptcy and just being.

Speaker 1 Here's the thing. If that hadn't happened to you, you might not

Speaker 1 have been where you're at. 100% I wouldn't be.
Like those chains of events and like those

Speaker 1 dark times of my life

Speaker 1 have been the most powerful to me that have kept me motivated on the doors, kept me motivated to keep going in the business, kept me motivated to work on my relationships. You know, it's just, yeah.

Speaker 1 And I think it's the way you look at trials and tribulations. I believe that

Speaker 1 God gives us trials and tribulations. So, you know, scriptures,

Speaker 1 we turn our weaknesses into our strengths.

Speaker 1 And I think a lot of people don't do that though he gives them the trials and tribulations but they just like settle with like well it's just the way it is they're just gonna be weak and I think you know guys like you and I we want to take those weaknesses and like how do we make them strengths like how do we overcome them because we know when we overcome when we overcome that fear of change everything we've ever wanted is on that other side of that change.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. I would say that some people suffer to feel dignified.
And so they hold on to the suffering.

Speaker 1 Other people go through the suffering to learn so they can move, move away from it. It's all what you do with it.

Speaker 1 Are you going to learn from it and you look at it as like, hey, this sucked, but what am I going to do about it? Or are you going to be like, this sucks, and my life is horrible?

Speaker 1 It's just, it's two different paths. Jeremy, I appreciate you sharing your knowledge.
Like, there's absolutely incredible nuggets in here with psychology and sales practices.

Speaker 1 And just, I mean, what you're building is just absolutely phenomenal. Would highly recommend it for anybody that's wanting to really scale up their sales program and

Speaker 1 utilize where are the best places for people to finalize or to utilize your content and the different programs that you have. Yeah, just follow me on Instagram, Jeremy Lee Minor.

Speaker 1 That's my verified account. We do a lot of reels there.

Speaker 1 You can also go to like barnesandnoble.com, get our best-selling book, new model of selling, selling for the unsellable generation, the big orange book.

Speaker 1 And then if they have questions, they can just text me. So I'll even give you the number.
Yeah, that'd be great. 480-637-2944.

Speaker 1 Every day for an hour or two, I sit around with a bunch of my sales trainers and we answer questions. So they're welcome to text.
That's pretty phenomenal.

Speaker 1 I think it's a great business practice. And the fact that you're opening yourself up that way is fantastic.
I appreciate it. Yeah, they want more advanced training, they can always reach out to us.

Speaker 1 Awesome.

Speaker 1 Guys, appreciate you jumping on, listening to this podcast.

Speaker 1 Another episode of Next Level Pros. As always,

Speaker 1 if you're looking at joining the premiere program or just seeing what it's like, you can get a $47 10-day trial over at go nextlevelpros.com, in which you're going to be able to have access to me, Daryl, and our team, in which you'll be able to ask your questions, be able to utilize and see what it's like to be a part of our community.

Speaker 1 Once again, head on over to go nextlevelpros.com. It's in the show notes.
Appreciate you guys. Until next time.