#130: How Jotform Founder & CEO Aytekin Tank Got Great at Solving One Problem

Speaker 1 Hi, Tekken. So you started out as a developer for internet.com.
What ultimately led to you saying, you know what, I want to go and do something on my own.

Speaker 1 Like what finally clicked or made sense for you?

Speaker 2 At that time, like I kind of hated it because it wasn't very challenging like just you know typing HTML to create forms or just handling them back end to send emails, things like that.

Speaker 2 So I wanted to find a product that can actually do that. And I searched for it.

Speaker 2 There were some products, but they were well done. So at that time, like it clicked on my mind that if I ever like start my business, this is the product I could build.

Speaker 2 With that knowledge, I quit my job, I forged it, and I built JotForm.

Speaker 1 What's up, Founder Nation? Super excited to bring you this episode with Mr. Itch and Tonk.
This guy has built a 600-man empire. competing with Google Forms and all kinds of different crazy stuff.

Speaker 1 The best part about this episode is the focus that this guy has had for the last 19 years, not getting distracted by all the shiny objects. You know what I'm talking about if you're an entrepreneur.

Speaker 1 There's all kinds of opportunities out there. We want to say yes.
One of the best phrases I've ever heard is: you can do anything, but you can't do everything.

Speaker 1 We hit oil by digging one hole a thousand feet deep, not a thousand holes one foot deep. So let's dive into this episode as we talk about focus and compounded growth.
Let's go.

Speaker 1 Yo, yo, yo, yo, welcome to another episode of the Founder Podcast. Today, I am joined by Mr.
Itekin Tunk. It

Speaker 1 is tuning in from Turkey, halfway across the world. Super excited to have you.

Speaker 1 It's got a phenomenal story. This is a story that you're not going to want to miss.

Speaker 1 We're talking about somebody that has dedicated his life to his craft, that slow growth, consistent compounding growth that really a lot of us entrepreneurs miss out on because we get distracted by the shiny objects.

Speaker 1 We got all these other different types of things.

Speaker 1 And iTeken has proven that if you can just find something that works and continue to dig the hole over and over and over again, eventually you're going to hit oil.

Speaker 1 He has grown his business since 2005 to now 19 years later to over 600 employees.

Speaker 1 He's got an incredible, incredible software job form that is utilized throughout the world, doing millions of dollars in revenue. He is real,

Speaker 1 a New York Times bestseller, automated your busy work.

Speaker 1 He is just well-published, well,

Speaker 1 just a well-established entrepreneur. He's super excited to have you on the show, Mr.
ITIC, and welcome to the show.

Speaker 2 Hello, Chris. Great to be on your show.
Thank you for that great introduction.

Speaker 1 Yeah, man, it's exciting.

Speaker 1 And I would also share that, you know, not only an incredible businessman that has dedicated himself to the crap, but a family man that I just found out married, three children.

Speaker 2 For me,

Speaker 1 as a family man,

Speaker 1 it's always important to me

Speaker 1 when I have that similar bond with another business owner because some people, they just dedicate their whole life to business and they don't have this other aspect. So that's really cool.
Hi, Tekken.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 you started out

Speaker 1 as a developer for internet.com for five years. In fact, I didn't even know internet.com was a thing.
That makes sense, you know, early 2000s.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 you did that for five years. What ultimately led to you saying, you know what, I want to go and do something on my own.
Like what finally clicked or made sense for you?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So I worked for internet.com between 2000 2000 and 2005, and I was a developer.

Speaker 2 And I was so we had like over 100 websites and

Speaker 2 these websites were all about

Speaker 2 things like web development,

Speaker 2 about all kinds of technology stuff.

Speaker 2 And while I was working there as a developer, one of my tasks was to create these online forms for our editors.

Speaker 2 So I would create these contact forms, surveys, questionnaires, like you know, contest forms, payment forms, all kinds of forms.

Speaker 2 And like at that time, like I kind of hated it because, you know, it wasn't very challenging like just typing HTML to create forms or just handling them back end to send emails, things like that.

Speaker 2 So I really didn't enjoy creating forms.

Speaker 2 uh at that time so i wanted to find a product that can actually do that and i searched for it uh there are there were some products but they didn't, they weren't,

Speaker 2 they weren't well done. So at that time, like it clicked on my mind that if I ever start my business, this is the product I could build.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 at some point, like I decided, okay, I can actually make this. I can really do a good job.
I can make a great product.

Speaker 2 And I understood the

Speaker 2 reason people would use that because I've been building hundreds of forms for our editors. So I knew like what they needed.
So I actually knew the knowledge.

Speaker 2 So I think that's very important if you're an entrepreneur. Like having that firsthand knowledge about like what people need, what people are asking for is really useful.

Speaker 2 So with that knowledge, I quit my job, I forged it and I built job form.

Speaker 2 And the first year, like I made it all free, like

Speaker 2 because I wanted to get as many people to use it as possible.

Speaker 2 like it was all free even today it's it's free until like if you reach until you receive like 100 form submissions per month it's all free so and like we have like 25 million users now because it's we have this free version and that's the biggest marketing tool you can have giving something away for free is like the biggest marketing uh tool you can have and uh we still have that today i love that so hooking hooking the user in with something free some some sort of offer up front um

Speaker 1 Let's back up. I mean,

Speaker 1 you go, you're like, hey,

Speaker 1 I know this product. I know this is a good solution.
I'm going to go do it on my own. Like,

Speaker 1 was that scary at all? Like, walk us through like the feeling.

Speaker 1 I don't know, you know, 19 years ago is hard to remember all the emotions that we're going through, but like walk us through the emotions of like making that initial leap because I know a lot of the listeners on here are probably in similar situations.

Speaker 1 They're like, I want to be an entrepreneur. I'm currently currently an intrapreneur in my current business.

Speaker 1 I have a skill set, but I'm a little like, there's no security in going and doing this my own. So like, walk us through how that, how that went down for you.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 So I was working in this basement, uh, in a, in like all these, within these cubicles. So, uh, at internet.com.
And I remember going up two stairs to my manager.

Speaker 2 Like, I remember walking up those stairs and I was feeling like I, my my legs were shaking actually like I was like what am I doing like why am I doing this like this was my dream job and when I graduated college like studying in in the US computer science what was my dream like working on the internet sector like being a developer was my dream I reached all those dreams and then why am I like just quitting this and just like, you know,

Speaker 2 like I was asking myself.

Speaker 1 What kind of money were you making that time in this dream job? I mean obviously 2000 2005 completely different than 2024, but what kind of money were you making in the US?

Speaker 2 I think I was making like 75k

Speaker 2 something like that.

Speaker 1 Which yeah, I mean

Speaker 2 yeah, I mean, yeah, it's it's great money. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Uh, but but at the same time, like I was kind of afraid, but I also had this kind of experience doing, doing my own products on the site

Speaker 2 that actually gave me the confidence. Because

Speaker 2 while I was working there full time, even before I worked there full-time, when I was a student, I would create this open source product, I would give them a bay, and I learned so much about like building products.

Speaker 2 And then I started kind of selling them on the side as well. So I actually learned about things like SEO, marketing, you know, customer support, things like that.
So like,

Speaker 2 because I did that for a long time, I also kind of had that confidence that I could do this.

Speaker 2 I could do this because, you know, I'm already, I was actually earning, you know, as much as I earned at my full-time job when I quit my job. So I kind of had like this infinite runway.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 yeah, it's so that actually, I... that gave me confidence to be able to quit.

Speaker 2 And the other thing is it's not just about the money. It's about learning.
Like

Speaker 2 I never recommend first-time founders to just quit their jobs and just start building a product. That's very stressful.

Speaker 2 You don't want that stress while you're building your product. So what you want to do is do it on the side.

Speaker 2 Do it as a like a side job where you can actually earn, where you can actually learn all the skills because there's like so many skills you need to learn to become a successful entrepreneur.

Speaker 2 And the earlier you can start, the better. So don't just wait for, like, you know, I will quit my job one day and I will start my business.
Start it now. You don't need to wait for it.

Speaker 2 Like, you can just, even if you work like one hour a day, that's the amount of learnings you will have will accumulate.

Speaker 2 And when you quit your job, you will have all the experience you need to actually do a good job. And you will also have the confidence.

Speaker 2 And if you can actually start building your product beforehand, that also helps so that you can focus on like growing your business as opposed to starting from scratch.

Speaker 1 Couldn't agree more. I think there's too much unnecessary risk, right?

Speaker 1 Like a lot of people associate being an entrepreneur with risk, which there's very much so risk involved with being an entrepreneur, but like hedged risk and proper risk is

Speaker 1 absolutely necessary. And so this actually ties into like one of our previous episodes when we talked about like the side hustles of that you can be building on the side.

Speaker 1 Each Each one of us have 168 hours in a week. Most of us dedicate 40 of that to our jobs, to our economics and

Speaker 1 going and growing. And so, and then you have, you know, 40 hours dedicated to sleep, another 20 hours dedicated to family.
Like there is time.

Speaker 1 There is always time if you prioritize what you have going on to be able to go and do exactly like Itikin said, go and just build your own product on the side, right? There's,

Speaker 1 There's no need to go and just immediately put all your eggs in one basket and take all the risk when you can get paid to be educated.

Speaker 1 I am a big proponent, just as you, Itikin, that like go and get a paid education, learn from other people, see what you're good at, identify the ways that you can go and impact the marketplace and do it on somebody else's risk and somebody else's dime.

Speaker 1 And so, and then the other thing I would point out here is that, like, sometimes entrepreneurship isn't that sexy, like, your product doesn't have to be that sexy.

Speaker 1 Like, forms, there's nothing like super, like, oh man, this is the best thing in the world, or so amazing, or awesome, or whatnot. And, like, I'm sure you saw that.

Speaker 1 You're just like, this is just something that people need, and I'm good at it. And I can go and provide a solution that's better.
Right. And so

Speaker 1 it just goes to prove that, like, successful entrepreneurship isn't necessarily in the product, it's the dedication, the practice, the team building, those type of things.

Speaker 1 And so you go and you launch this thing, and you initially start giving it away for free.

Speaker 1 And I'm assuming you're probably still running some of these side hustles that are bringing other money, or how did that go down?

Speaker 2 Exactly. So while I was

Speaker 2 building JATFO, I actually continued the same way I did before I quit my job. So instead of going to my full-time job, I would actually start working on JATF.
So I was living in Brooklyn at that time.

Speaker 2 I would just

Speaker 2 like I would go to

Speaker 2 office, I would just go out and start working

Speaker 2 in a cafe in Brooklyn Heights.

Speaker 2 And I would walk to Brooklyn Bridge to Manhattan and I would just, you know, spend all my day working from different cafes and uh start building job form that way and uh so it's it it it was all fun but at the same time I would still work on my my customs I would still uh take care of my existing customers but uh I

Speaker 2 dedicated my time to the new product because I really believed in this product would be successful because I saw the need.

Speaker 2 And the other thing is like

Speaker 2 the other products I I built, the oldest side geeks, they don't have this growth curve. Like, they were kind of stuck in slow growth.

Speaker 2 So, that's also another thing you learn when you do things on the side. Like, what kind of business model doesn't work? Like, for example, selling software is like a single copy, single version,

Speaker 2 doesn't really scale, doesn't work, because you have to find a customer for every sale, right?

Speaker 2 But when you build a subscription software, when you build a service that people pay every month or every month, every year, that kind of scales because if your product is good, if you don't have churn, if you have high retention rate, that it's gonna snowball, it's gonna start very slowly.

Speaker 2 And for example, the first year it was all free, right? 2006, I released chat form,

Speaker 2 uh, it was all free, but we were getting, I was getting like I was alone at that time, like just

Speaker 2 subscription, like free users gradually.

Speaker 2 But in 2007, I added some, I worked on some paid

Speaker 2 paid like planned version product features. So when I released that,

Speaker 2 instantly I got like 500 subscribers, which and at that time it was just $9 a month. So it was only like $4,500 per month.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 it wasn't big.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 because the product was was good, because people were insuring,

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 continued to increase over the years. And so, you know, even today, like, we have customers who have been with us for more than 10 years, for a long time.
And that's just, it's very important.

Speaker 2 Like, because in a subscription product, in a product that's like people pay as they go along, you have that motivation to keep them happy

Speaker 2 because it

Speaker 2 adds up.

Speaker 2 And that's a great business model.

Speaker 2 But when you have to like find a customer for every sale, it just doesn't add up. And instead of making existing customers happy, you're focused on the new sales all the time.

Speaker 2 And that's just, you know, I prefer working on the quality of my product as opposed to just, you know, making flashy, you know, trying to find new customers. For sure.

Speaker 1 I love that. So initially you have that free product.
When you made the conversion and started offering the $9 a month, how many free subscriptions did you have active at that time?

Speaker 2 At that time, we had like 15,000

Speaker 2 free users.

Speaker 2 And then,

Speaker 2 you know, once I released that paid version, I was able to convert like 500 to them to the paid version. I remember

Speaker 2 as soon as

Speaker 2 I announced the new paid version,

Speaker 2 half an hour later,

Speaker 2 someone from Spain,

Speaker 2 it was very early in the morning.

Speaker 2 So someone from Spain was the first customer, then someone from the UK, I believe, and then from the East Coast. And then, you know,

Speaker 2 all these subscribers trickling in. And it was a great feeling.
Even though they were just paying $9, it was an amazing feeling.

Speaker 1 So let's dig into a little bit more granular. So, I mean, you've bootstrapped this thing for the last 19 years and you've slowly added, you know, different products or different

Speaker 1 features to your product, slowly added employees, slowly added these things, right? Like,

Speaker 1 how have you been able to say

Speaker 1 so focused? Because I'm imagining there's been distractions or been other opportunities that have been presented over the last 19 years.

Speaker 1 How have you been able to just make sure you hone in and continue down this path of like, this is our strategy, this is how we go to market, this is what I'm dedicated to?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I remember

Speaker 2 like one of our developers once came to me. This was a very long time ago.
And he said, okay, yeah, we

Speaker 2 built the

Speaker 2 like we rewrote chat form like the third time.

Speaker 2 So are we going to work on something new now?

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I said, like, you know, look at these users, look at these customers, all these requests coming from these customers and how they use our product that

Speaker 2 we can never, you know, finish with this product. We have to continue working on it, improving it.
And what happened was over time,

Speaker 2 We discovered that we are not just a form builder, right?

Speaker 2 In the beginning, it was just like, can we build build a product that can let people like they can just go and build their own forms on their own easily, like just make the easiest form builder. And

Speaker 2 just that was our focus. But over the years, like we started seeing that people were actually starting to,

Speaker 2 like, we started seeing like people weren't just using it to create forms. Like, people don't just create forms so that they can collect data.

Speaker 2 It's actually about

Speaker 2 some workflow. It's about some tasks.
It's about some work that needs to be done. So someone is making a request for something.
Someone is registering for something.

Speaker 2 Someone is making a payment to purchase something.

Speaker 2 Like there are just like so many use cases for forms.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 people aren't just filling the forms just to send the data because there is just like so many things happening after that. There is a workflow.

Speaker 2 So we started seeing our job as to helping people automate all the things they do once they get the data with the form. So we start building all these additional features and products.

Speaker 2 So for example, recently we released Jatform Sign. So it's a full-blown e-signature product, very similar to DokiSign,

Speaker 2 because we saw that people who actually collect had forms, they also needed e-signatures.

Speaker 2 So we also released this product called JAT from Apps, where you can actually create this mobile app from your forms. And let's say within your company, you have all these forms.

Speaker 2 And we actually found the idea because we had the need. Like I was asking people, okay, where is this form? Like, where is this HR form? Where is this like, you know, uh rooquest form?

Speaker 2 Like I was asking people about like all these forms because we were using our product as much as possible. But I was always losing the URLs for the forms.
Right.

Speaker 2 So we asked like, why don't don't we create a tool where you can actually add all these forms?

Speaker 2 You can even add more stuff. You can add links.
You can add all these things. You can build an app, just a no-code product.

Speaker 2 And then you can even let people install this app on their mobile forms. Or if they want to use it from the browser, they can use it online.

Speaker 2 So we came up with the idea for JAT form apps, and that became very successful among our users as well. So

Speaker 2 there was a need for document generation because like once you fill a form, all that data can be used to create this PDF file to create a document so that you can store it as a durable document.

Speaker 2 You can send it to other people.

Speaker 2 So we created this PDF designer where you can actually create your document. So we added all these tools.

Speaker 2 because the goal was not just to help them create forms, but to help people with all the workflows.

Speaker 2 And because because I've been involved with so much with this automation stuff, I actually wrote a book about it.

Speaker 2 Last year, I released the book Automate Your Busy Work, and it became a Wall Street Journal bestseller. And

Speaker 2 in that book, I actually talk about what I learned as an entrepreneur automating all the things, like all the busy work, because that was a big struggle for me.

Speaker 2 What I learned automating the stuff,

Speaker 2 as a company, what kind of things we automated that actually resulted in so much more productivity, and how we helped people automate their busy work with our product. So, all those things that like,

Speaker 2 because I have been involved with automation so much, like it just makes sense to write the book about it. And

Speaker 2 I think

Speaker 2 it turned out to be a great book, and it was released last year, and it found a great audience.

Speaker 1 Awesome. So, this is what I'm hearing: like, you know, traditionally,

Speaker 1 entrepreneurs are very ADD and easily distracted with what we call the shiny object syndrome, right? Like, new opportunities arise, and we say yes to that instead of learning how to say no.

Speaker 1 And so, what you're explaining to me, and what I've also been able to find success in as an entrepreneur is identifying new opportunities that still fit within the scope of our focus, right?

Speaker 1 Still fit within the hole that we are digging to hit oil and being able to find joy and passion in creating new things that fit within

Speaker 1 that focus. Because I think where a lot of entrepreneurs fail is

Speaker 1 they want these new opportunities and new

Speaker 1 ways to grow and create and develop and use this because as entrepreneurs, we're just going crazy with ideas.

Speaker 1 We're always like trying to think of like all the new ways to improve and everything like that.

Speaker 1 And the issue for where it becomes an issue is when that's outside of your focus, when all of a sudden, like I'm focused on developing software, I have this idea about real estate, or I have this idea about a physical product that I could go and sell, or somebody else comes to me and says, hey, do you want to invest in this and help consult me on this or or what, whatever it is?

Speaker 1 And so, and

Speaker 1 in our minds, we believe that we are capable of anything. Like we can go and be successful in anything we've done because up until this point, we've had success in everything.

Speaker 1 And so the temptation is to say yes to those type of opportunities that are outside of our

Speaker 1 focus.

Speaker 1 And then we get distracted and we start digging new holes and we never eventually hit oil, right? We never hit that compound. And so what I'm hearing from you

Speaker 1 is that you know that this is your hole and you're just finding new ways to drill, right?

Speaker 1 New ways to be able to access oil from the same hole, whether that's new features in forms, a docu sign type of

Speaker 1 product or whatever it is.

Speaker 1 And so like that's what I'm gathering from this, from the principle, like the principle of success, of consistent effort over and over again requires new creation within the same focus.

Speaker 1 Would you agree?

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 when you have customers, when you have so many customers, so many users, millions of users, that

Speaker 2 like even if I created a new product, just like

Speaker 2 the amount of value you provide is multiplied by the number of people who will actually get that value, right?

Speaker 2 So, if you already have like you know 25 million users here, like why don't you just go and like provide more value to them as opposed to like come up with a new idea and try to like just get new users, new customers to the new idea, which is very difficult.

Speaker 2 So, it's I kind of found a way to kind of satisfy that entrepreneurship, like that

Speaker 1 need

Speaker 2 by actually building all the additional features, product to the existing users. And that's a great way to actually

Speaker 2 kind of provide value to your existing users. And we also recently released our enterprise version.
And

Speaker 2 like for the first,

Speaker 2 I believe, like,

Speaker 2 12 years of JAT form, probably more than 12 years, there was no salesperson. It was all SaaS service.

Speaker 2 So, like, people would come to Jatform and they would use a free version, upgrade to the paid version. It's great.
Like, and I'm kind of an introvert. So, it's just like,

Speaker 2 you know, I never liked sales. Like, I'm not a salesperson.
So, it's, you know, and I also didn't know any salespeople. So, it's just, you know, this was good and comfortable.

Speaker 2 But I remember once there was this like big company

Speaker 2 customer who, you know, who

Speaker 2 asked me like, hey, come to our office. You know, we want to buy, like, we want to pay you a lot and just

Speaker 2 buy just

Speaker 2 for the company. And I was like, you know, and I was at that time, like, I had some other stuff.
Like, I didn't, you know, I didn't feel like

Speaker 2 taking a plane and going there.

Speaker 2 And then

Speaker 2 I lost that customer that was a potential big client. And I didn't do it.

Speaker 2 And we actually didn't have a product for a whole company anyway. So it's just we were lacking something.

Speaker 2 And that's when I came up with the idea of JatForm Enterprise. Okay, why don't we create a product for bigger companies,

Speaker 2 for companies who want to use it as a team?

Speaker 2 for users who want to use it as a team, like who want to collaborate, who want to share data among each other, share forms among teams,

Speaker 2 things like that.

Speaker 2 So, and like

Speaker 2 actually learning sales, like building a sales team,

Speaker 2 it was something completely like something I didn't know about.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 this was

Speaker 2 20,

Speaker 2 I think this was like 2018. So we created the Jetform Enterprise product.

Speaker 2 I had my first sales hire.

Speaker 2 And this was coming from a big sales company, like, you know, big title, like very knowledge. He came in and he couldn't sell a single job form to a company.
So it's, uh, it didn't work out.

Speaker 2 Like, he kind of came from a big company, so he did, like, he didn't have that, like, he didn't have that starts, uh, startup knowledge or just starting from scratch. So that didn't work out.

Speaker 2 So I hired someone else

Speaker 2 and she also didn't work out.

Speaker 2 She couldn't figure out a way to sell Jazz form. But we were also improving the product.

Speaker 2 So I promoted someone from within the company. That also didn't work out.

Speaker 2 So like three times I failed to actually,

Speaker 2 because I have no like sales experience,

Speaker 2 I didn't even know like what kind of like salesperson would be the first sales AI, like what would be the best person.

Speaker 2 So finally,

Speaker 2 from my network,

Speaker 2 I was introduced to the fourth person. And this person actually had experience helping startups build sales teams.

Speaker 2 He actually did that before. He knew what to do and he knew how to sell it.

Speaker 2 So he came in and

Speaker 2 I was ready to give up. I was like, hey, you know, just I don't want to fire anybody else.
Just, you know, why don't we just do it like a

Speaker 2 three-month deal? Just let's have a quota for three months. If you can search out for enterprise, then that's great.
Like, we can continue. And you know, if you don't like it, you know, it's also so.

Speaker 2 We just started as a contractor for three months, and then

Speaker 2 he came in and he started, he did an amazing job. He passed the quota, and then he actually, you know,

Speaker 2 he also worked really well with our team. So we built all the necessary,

Speaker 2 like all the necessary like features, compliances, because

Speaker 2 there are now companies like Shell who use Jatform and those kind of like big companies, they need compliances, like they need a SAC2 compliance.

Speaker 2 They need, you know, some comp, you know, if they are a healthcare company, they need HIPAA compliance.

Speaker 2 So there are all these like different kinds of stuff that's needed if you are selling to enterprise. You cannot have that if you don't have like a team that can actually work on all those things.

Speaker 2 So he came in, he built the team. So now we have like 20 salespeople and

Speaker 2 Jack for enterprise is now 30% of our revenues. And

Speaker 2 it started from zero to 30% of our revenues in just like, you know, five years.

Speaker 1 So I would extract a few principles from that story right there.

Speaker 1 So first and foremost, I think as entrepreneurs, like we've got to be consistently identifying new ways that we can go to the market, right? Like you had gotten comfortable in like,

Speaker 1 this is our go-to-market strategy. We give away the product for free.

Speaker 1 We bring on users, onesie, twosie. They upgrade from the free version to the paid version.
We don't do enterprise, but then you started. like exploring this idea.

Speaker 1 So one, like you got to constantly be exploring and thinking about ways that you can improve your go-to-market strategy, whether that's an affiliate, whether that's an enterprise, bringing in a sales team.

Speaker 1 The other principle that I would extract is like,

Speaker 1 don't be afraid to get uncomfortable doing something that you're not comfortable doing, right? Like, you obviously didn't have the sales background. You weren't comfortable doing it.
You hired people.

Speaker 1 They didn't work out, right? Like, you, and you're in this uncomfortable situation where you believe it might work and you're just kind of making those tests.

Speaker 1 And like, that's, that's also very important as an entrepreneur that you have to be doing these things that get you out of the normal day-to-day comfort and get you uncomfortable.

Speaker 1 A few other principles I would extract is like the law of keep going. Like when you think you're onto something, don't give up right before you hit gold, right?

Speaker 1 You know, it would have been real easy to shut. shut it down after the first, the second, the third person didn't work out.

Speaker 1 And so, which leads me to my last principle is like, if you're going to, as an entrepreneur if you want to go and explore something hire the best people whether that's a contractor or that's an outside consultant that actually have experience doing the exact thing that you want to do right not just somebody that worked for an organization that did what you want to do but like that has the real world experience maybe like in this example doing it as a startup building building a sales team from scratch doing you know going and doing that grinding mode, because there are people out there that are available that want to,

Speaker 1 and this is all just a lack of marketing. Marketing is what makes the world go round.
What you want is out there and available, and what they want is out there and available.

Speaker 1 And it's just a lack, it's just a lack of knowledge about each other and the opportunities that exist, which is essentially a form of marketing. And so, like, understand

Speaker 1 that there are solutions. Be willing to take the risk.
Stick to it even when

Speaker 1 it hurts or you feel like

Speaker 1 you can't fail another time. But yeah, just so many incredible principles to be extracted from that great story right there.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, you have to make those mistakes to learn from them.

Speaker 2 Sometimes there's no shortcut. Yes, yes.

Speaker 1 I take it, man.

Speaker 1 It's been a pleasure going through this.

Speaker 1 You've had incredible growth.

Speaker 1 What has been

Speaker 1 the hardest thing about bootstrapping and slow growth over the last 19 years to get to the position where you're at today

Speaker 2 i guess um

Speaker 2 um

Speaker 2 it's about and before i started jot form um i never managed anybody right uh i was a individual contributor uh as a developer in my previous job uh but luckily i I hired my first employee the first

Speaker 2 year, second employee, second year. So literally for the first five years, I only added like one person to the company every year.
So

Speaker 2 learning management was really important for me.

Speaker 2 But I will say, I think it's also about the time management. So how

Speaker 2 you use your time. So I remember a few years into JAT form.

Speaker 2 And we were like three, four employees at this time. And I was spending all my day, I was the only cuss, There wasn't any customer support.

Speaker 2 So I was spending all my day doing customer support, answering emails, accounting, legal HR, ordering supplies for the office. Like I was busy with the busy work.
But what I really liked was

Speaker 2 working on my product. And that's what actually made the difference in the long term.

Speaker 2 And I was really struggling. And right at this moment, something else happened.
Google actually came to the ring. Google Forms was released.

Speaker 2 So now I'm like, I'm not really moving forward with my product. I'm struggling.
I'm spending all my day with VisiWork. And now I have to compete with Google.
So

Speaker 2 it was a turning point for me. I think that's when I decided, okay, I have to change something.

Speaker 2 And the solution was automation and delegation. So for example, I went to Upwork.
At that time, it was called Odesk.

Speaker 2 I went to Opwork and I hired these like support employees, like contractors

Speaker 2 from all over the world and

Speaker 2 just handed over the support work to them. And I started automating all the work, like all the HR work.
I started automating them.

Speaker 2 You know, the way we developed our product, we streamlined and automated everything. So it's just, and like I was spending like maybe like five, six hours a day.

Speaker 2 And I was able to automate many things I do, and I was able to reduce that to like one hour a day.

Speaker 2 I think that was the biggest one. So automation and delegation really saved

Speaker 2 me. And

Speaker 2 just I learned to focus on the most important thing.

Speaker 2 And every morning, you know, I make sure that I just, you know, launch this full screen text editor, IARIDER on Mac, and just a blank screen, blinking, you know, white blinking

Speaker 2 cursor. And then I start typing what's the most important thing I can work on today.
And just if nothing comes to my mind, I will just write whatever comes to my mind.

Speaker 2 And at some point, like, okay, this is the really important thing. And sometimes there are like urgent emails there, and I don't check my emails.
I don't check, you know, the social media or anything.

Speaker 2 I just make sure that I

Speaker 2 focus on that most important thing for the day. And

Speaker 2 that's the most important thing.

Speaker 1 And for those that didn't pay attention right there, we're going to recap this.

Speaker 1 First of all, you cannot busy yourself with $25 an hour work, right?

Speaker 1 Like if it can be delegated and automated to somebody that can do that for $25 or less, you've got to get rid of it off your plate because this is where, this is the biggest launching pad for any type of entrepreneur when they shift from doing busy work to the thing that they're most passionate about, the thing that gives them purpose, joy, happiness, right?

Speaker 1 And so like, what is the, the, the question that he types on there, what is the most important thing that I can do today, especially in a day of distractions, there are so many distractions, right?

Speaker 1 Like this cell phone right here was made to distract us. Push notifications, social media notification, email notification, all these notifications that lead from one thing to another.

Speaker 1 And it's so easy to get wrapped up in the scrolling to like literally waste two, three hours on doing mundane work or mundane, like

Speaker 1 just even being distracted. You may not even be doing work versus what is the most important thing that I can be doing today.
And

Speaker 1 I technically, that is like the greatest advice that you could give. I appreciate you sharing that with the world,

Speaker 1 with our listeners, with our viewers.

Speaker 1 That is really like

Speaker 1 the biggest gem from this podcast. Where is the best place that our people can support you, follow you on social media? Where's the best platform for that?

Speaker 2 I'm on Twitter.

Speaker 2 I'm also writing on, you know, Forbes, fast company, entrepreneur.

Speaker 2 And I also have a website, my first name, lastname.com, itekintank.com, where I have, you know, you can get like the free first chapter of my book,

Speaker 2 you know, read it for free.

Speaker 2 And like all my articles, all my blog posts are there as well.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 that's where you can find me.

Speaker 1 So you guys heard that. Head on over to itekintonk.com.
That's A-Y-T-E-K-I-N-T-A-N-K dot com.

Speaker 1 You can get first few few chapters of or first chapter of his book for free. Go ahead and support him.
Buy his new book.

Speaker 1 He's got a new book that he's going to be releasing in the next 12 to 18 months, which we're super excited about. Super excited to see where this journey goes.

Speaker 1 I mean, the fact that 600 employees only growing from here, I know the revenues are really high, and

Speaker 1 we're going to maybe disclose them on a future episode, which I'm super excited about. Thank you so much for your time today, I think.
And until next time.