473: No Such Thing As Rice Babies

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Hi, everybody.

Andy here.

Just before this week's episode, we wanted to announce our special guest.

It is the psychotherapist, author, columnist, presenter.

You name it, it's Philippa Perry.

We are so thrilled to have had Philippa on the show.

She was on our comic relief special a few years ago, and she was just so great, entertaining, and interesting.

We had to have her back.

If you're interested in finding out a little bit more of Philippa's work, she has written a magnificent book called The Book You Wish Your Parents Had Read and Your Children Will Be Glad That You Did.

So do check that one out.

Her next book available to be ordered now, it's out in a few months, is called The Book You Want Everyone You Love to Read and Maybe a Few You Don't.

So we hope you enjoyed the episode.

We certainly enjoyed recording it.

The other thing to say is that our British Library live show is coming up soon.

It's on Friday the 21st of April.

It's about animals.

Just wanted to throw a bit of mystery in there.

It's about animals.

It's an animals special to go with the British Library's new animals exhibition.

Anna, of course, is still away, but we have a special guest for this show, and that is going to be none other than Sally Phillips of Alan Partridge, Smack the Pony, Green Wing, Miranda, you name it.

She's going to be there, and she's going to be our special guest.

We are very excited.

Live tickets in the room are completely sold out, but there are streaming tickets available.

So wherever you are listening to this, you can attend a glorious fish gig in the comfort of your own home.

Why not pop over to no such thingasafish.com live or live?

No one's ever really worked it out.

You will be able to get yourself a streaming ticket for the show there.

We hope you do so.

We hope you enjoy this episode.

We'll see you soon.

Bye!

Hello, and welcome to another episode of of No Such Thing as a Fish, a weekly podcast coming to you from the QI offices in Covent Garden.

My name is Dan Schreiber.

I am sitting here with James Harkin, Andrew Hunter Murray and Philippa Perry.

And once again, we have gathered round the microphones with our four favorite facts from the last seven days and in no particular order.

Here we go.

Starting with fact number one and that is Philippa.

Hi.

Child rearing advice in the 17th century included tossing your baby up in a blanket to strengthen its nerves or firing pistols near it to boost its endurance.

Okay, I'm just going to start by saying, in case you suddenly want to run away and think that's a brilliant idea, that if you toss a newborn into the air,

it might break its neck because it's got no neck muscles and a very big head.

So not a great idea.

Is there a minimum age at which tossing can commence?

When did you start tossing?

Oh, we got quite personal quite quickly, didn't we?

I knew this would happen.

Bring a fella fair on.

Okay, if you're going to do something fun, like toss somebody in the air, it's a great idea if you've got a bond and a relationship with them first.

So don't go up to a random baby and think, oh, babies love this, and toss them into the air.

A, they might break their necks if they haven't got neck muscles muscles yet.

And B, you do that as part of an ongoing relationship.

And you have give and take with a baby.

Okay, so you can't exchange words, but you exchange looks and laughs.

One of the first games a baby likes playing, let's start gentle folks, is Peekaboo.

Now, that is really scary for a baby.

Especially when you fire a pistol at them.

Can we just drop the firing of the pistols?

Oh, sorry.

Yeah, don't do that, okay?

Peekaboo, right.

It's really scary for a baby because they haven't got what we call object permanence.

So if mummy leaves the room, that's why baby goes, wah!

Because mummy doesn't exist anymore.

Oh, so mummy's gone forever in the baby's eye?

Possibly.

We haven't really got a concept of forever, but mummy is not there and we haven't got a sense of mummy ongoing in the other room yet.

Yes.

So it's pretty scary.

And so, peekaboo, the baby thinks you've disappeared for a second.

And that is, oh, the jeopardy.

And then when you arrive again, the relief is hilarious.

And then again, they want to play that again and again and again.

That is the 17th century firing a pistol that we do in the, what we in now, 22nd century or something?

21st century.

21st, yes.

It's difficult for me to keep up.

I really had to think.

People might be listening to this in the 22nd century.

Of course they might.

Let's hope they are.

I can ask with the blanket tossing though,

is this a case of, are we thinking of a laid-out blanket where we're flinging a kid into the air, like fox tossing, the old sport?

Because I wondered if it was wrapping in a blanket and tossing them up and down.

While they're squaddled.

While they're swaddled.

Exactly.

I think it's that.

I think it's the old hold the blanket by the corners and then.

If you're trying to strengthen their nerves, then it needs to have some jeopardy, I think.

I think chucking a baby in the air at all is jeopardy.

This thing about treating babies and children cruelly to make them stronger is an utter, complete, nasty myth that people still cling on to.

My dear father, for example, when my daughter was about two years old and she'd just grown too large to stand up underneath the piano, she hit her head on the

piano thing and

I of course went to comfort her oh buddy be here dear dear cuddle cuddle kiss kiss my dad said don't do that

she'll hurt herself all the time

so that she can get that sort of comfort you are rewarding her hurting herself he said and I went oh my god suddenly I realized why I needed 25 years of therapy

I know but is there a thing where if a small child let's say, falls over, right?

Yeah.

They will sometimes, if you're in the, it's like if you're in the room with a small child and they fall over, and they will sometimes give you a look as if they're kind of sizing up whether or not they're going to cry.

And if you react in a big way, they might say, oh, right, that is my cue to cry.

They're sort of engaging in it with you.

Whereas if you say, oh, there we go, and then you sort of, you know,

it depends how frightened you are of the fall.

I mean, sometimes you see a fall and you think, that doesn't hurt that much.

That's what I mean.

And so you go, oh, whoopsa daisy, and we all go, whoops a daisy.

But you know, when they're covered in blood and there's a size of an egg on their head, I think, they're there, darling.

That must hurt.

Yeah.

Isn't too bad.

Okay.

Good call.

Yeah, that's a good level of distinction.

Yeah.

I say to my son, Wilf and Ted, my sons, when they're scootering, if they fall over, I say, oh, that was an amazing blooper.

Because we sometimes film and then so...

You're after those 250 quids for a YouTube frame, don't you?

Do it again in slow motion.

My camera's not working in slow motion.

motion, yes.

But Will came home one day, scratched up, and he said, Dad had an amazing blooper today.

So it kind of helps in a way.

There's something else here as well, is that children won't cry with people they don't feel particularly safe with.

Like one day, my daughter had quite a nasty fall in the playground, and the teachers were all saying to me when I went to pick her up, like, oh, she was so brave, she didn't cry, she didn't make a fuss.

I looked at her and think, that's not like her, weird.

And so I went, okay, goodbye, okay, good we walked around the corner away from the school as soon as we got around the corner

and it was just delayed comfort she didn't want comfort from the teacher she wanted comfort from me and I'm not saying you're putting it on because you didn't do that at the time bollocks you just felt pretty sad about having fallen over and that was incompleted that sort of like I feel sad I need comfort and so whenever a child wants comfort, give it.

Never mind this thing about, but they're doing it for attention.

Yes, they are.

And that means you need to give attention.

Because once they've had enough attention, that's then and only then that you learn to internalise the comfort you get from your loving ones so that you can tell yourself things like it hurts now, but it won't hurt in a minute.

You know, you learn those things, you learn to comfort yourself.

You know, if something awful happens to me, like,

I don't know, I get my credit card pocket picked, that's the blooper of today, isn't it?

Or something like that.

Is that correct?

I want to ring up either my husband or my daughter and go, wow, wow, wow.

And I spent all morning on the phone and getting things cancelled.

It's been really horrible.

And I just want them to go, they're there.

So even when we're quite old, I'm 65, we still need some external comfort

for big bloopers.

And I'm expecting when I have my hip-hop in in a few weeks I'm expecting a lot of sympathy from you lot please

so from the sound of it Philippa you don't agree with I just I've been looking up kind of historical you know childcare advice and parenting manuals and things like that yeah there was a manual in the 15th century by Giovanni Dominici who said that ideally you d I mean he did subscribe to toughening children up when small uh dress them in rough clothing get them to sleep in the cold worst of all withhold food and wine

not not wine well that's the last straw.

Yeah, child services out there right now.

I mean, if you're sort of left out in the cold with no comfort, I think the least you could have would be a bit of wine to numb this pit pool.

That'd be nice, wouldn't it?

I'd be interested in the history of childcare, whether it kind of goes in cycles of kind of hard love and soft love, or whether we think we've kind of got to a point now and hopefully it'll kind of stay like this.

Well, it is still going in a cycle, really, because we tend to do things in extremes.

So we go from we must be authoritarian at all times and don't let them get away with anything to hey, free, easy.

And then we think, oh my god, those kids have got no boundaries.

They don't know where they are, who they're allowed to be, or anything.

They're all over the place.

They've gone mad.

We better toughen up again.

So it does tend to swing like that.

But of course, after everybody's read my book, they'll find the middle way

where you have love plus boundaries.

Can't go wrong with that.

Nice.

Were you at?

Hugs and guns, it's called.

It's not called that.

So when you had children, that was some years ago, as in when they were tiny.

How old are your children now?

They're sort of growing up.

So were you by any chance, I don't know if he was still big then, a Spock reader, Dr.

Benjamin Spock?

No.

No, he was a bit before that, wasn't he?

Yeah.

Because I was reading about him, and there was like this whole debate about you know tough love versus soft love and all of this.

Because

his books were still being published, you know, new editions in the late 90s, which is the only reason I asked.

But

he published his first in 1946, and it sold 50 million copies by the time he died.

Damn, I've only sold two million.

I've got a way to go.

Wow, that is embarrassing.

Yeah, I know, huh?

I bet he lived long and prospered after that.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

Yes.

But this is the crazy thing.

He was blamed for the eventual children who grew up where their parents had bought the book in the mid-40s, you know, the first edition.

Yeah, yeah.

Because then in the late 60s, he became a very prominent protester against the Vietnam War.

And he was very famously, you know, he was leading protests.

And he was told that his parenting style had led to permissiveness and the permissive society.

And that all these long-haired hippies protesting against the Vietnam War were basically his

children, you know, and the parents

brought them up in that style.

This is like the rider of Jaws then spending the rest of his life doing shark protection stuff, you know, like going the opposite way for what he created.

Yeah, let's just stick to the middle way, shall we?

But he was a victim of tough love, too, as a child.

He wasn't allowed to have a banana until he was 12.

Interesting.

Really?

What's the gossip there?

I have no more details than that.

I'm really sorry.

I did try to do that.

Well, the mind boggled.

Dude, this is a cool thing.

Parenthood during the pandemic was obviously an interesting thing.

If you had a baby during the pandemic, which I did,

you...

There wasn't anything else to do, was there?

There was nothing else to do.

do.

I was able to make a baby.

Yeah, exactly.

But we had a thing we had.

You had sourdough.

You had sourdough.

I had babies.

You obviously couldn't visit families and so on.

So in Japan, someone had this idea which worked really well, which was a pandemic rice baby.

So what you would do is you would send a picture of the baby, the face, to this company, and you would send the weight of the baby.

They would make a rice bag, the exact weight of your baby with the face on it, and send it to the parents or the auntie or uncle or whatever.

And so while you were doing calls or whatever, they could hold the rice baby and sort of feel like they had.

Oh, no, the rice baby's falling into a pan of boiling water.

It doesn't matter.

I've been tossing the rice baby up into the air on a blanket with terrible results.

So the company did this and it worked really well.

And then this is now a sort of growing trend in Japan.

At weddings now, there's an opposite baby that gets handed to the parents of the bride and the groom, which is

as in, sorry

very old man.

No, sorry.

What I mean is, what you would do is you would get a picture of, say, like James and his wife would get pictures of themselves as kids, and then they would have them printed onto a rice baby, and you would give yourself as a child back to your parents to say, Where I am now, this is where I came from, and you made me.

This is a present to remind you of the journey that we've been on.

Well, it's a beautiful ritual.

I think we should all integrate that into our lives.

Put in your new book.

No?

Okay.

You write another book, Dan.

You keep your ideas for your books.

I'll keep mine for mine.

How about that?

Rice babies is going to be a bestseller, I'm telling you.

No, it's got to be a more British kind of food.

It's got to be a classic British food.

It's got to be a

suet chips baby.

Yeah.

Chips, chippy baby.

Yeah.

Yeah, but

Yorkshire pudding.

Don't keep so well, do they, chips?

I was reading about when childcare manuals started, when they first took off, because there were a few in the Middle Ages, but not very many, and there wasn't math literacy in the same way.

And it was partly, and this is particularly in America I'm talking about, it was partly because people were moving around more.

So you might be living 200 miles from your parents and your immediate family.

So you don't have the immediate experience of a baby.

You know, you haven't grown up in loads of babies.

People were moving around for work.

It's like nowadays, really.

Yeah, and so a manual is a very useful

time NCT group.

Exactly, it really is.

Yeah, yeah.

And that's when the manuals kicked off in a big way.

And now, of course, there are so many, you know, thousands of manuals for threads.

That's the only one you really need to find.

Rice Babies by Dan Shriver.

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Back to school shopping.

This is the playoffs for parenting, aka getting ready to get back to school.

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Okay, it is time for fact number two, and that is my fact.

My fact this week is that France has lost at least two of its kings due to death by walking into the frame of a very low door.

This is

two that we know of.

There may be more.

To lose one king by walking into the frame of a very low door.

You know what?

At first I thought that was a Toulouse joke.

Yeah, Toulouse

in Lautrec.

Oh, I was thinking the southern French town.

Both would have been better than what I was doing.

That's cool.

Yeah, so.

Which ones are we talking?

We're talking Louis III, who passed away in 882, the year 882, and then Charles the Eighth.

I'm presuming not the same door.

Different door.

No, it's not, no, there's no incriminating door here, yeah.

I mean, horror film.

The killer door.

It waits.

Was there a bit of inbreeding to the old French royal family?

Because, you know, they had another one, didn't they, who thought he was made out of glass?

Yes.

Was that a French one?

Was that a British one?

No, it was, it was a French, I think it was one of the Charles's who suffered.

Known as Charles the Mad for some reason.

But inbreeding inbreeding couldn't make you walk into a doorframe.

Well, maybe you were brought up not to look where you were going.

Oh, almost, I guess if you're the king.

Maybe the French royals had a person who would always tell you whenever you're about to hit a doorframe.

Yes.

And it was his day off.

What a day.

So funny.

Two days off over 500 years.

So Charles VIII, his reason for running into the door was he was very excited to see a game of tennis.

So he was rushing out the door, didn't notice the height.

You know, when you're rushing out the door and you don't notice the height of a door, you can crack your head.

No.

Tennis has killed quite a lot of royals

in Europe over the years, yeah.

So Louis X of France died of a chill after playing tennis on a cold day.

James I of Scotland drowned in a storm drain that he was using to escape assassins.

Yeah.

But the drain was blocked by tennis balls.

And so he couldn't get out and he drowned.

It's hard to blame that on the tennis balls, really, isn't it?

No, but they'd be called to the stand, definitely.

And it would be especially ironic for him if he had been the one playing tennis and saying, Shall we go and get those balls?

No, I can't be bothered.

They're in the storm drain.

Like, that's a good ironic.

That would be ironic.

And Anne Boleyn was watching a tennis match at Hampton Court when she was arrested and beheaded.

Again,

not fair to blame tennis.

Even if she'd been watching a squash game, they might have still arrested a beheaded.

You're right.

But that's a good connection.

That is a great connection.

And they're courts.

Courts and courts.

That's a...

Oh, I see.

Yeah, that's clever.

The other guy, by the way, Louis the other guy, King Louis III, was chasing a girl into a house, and she obviously bent, and he didn't.

Well, she might have been shorter than him.

Yeah, she could have been shorter than him.

Is it true that the reason doors did used to be short is not because people obviously were smaller, but because materials cost so much that it made more sense to have less material for a wooden door?

I I believe it might have been because of the heating.

So, if you have a smaller door, it keeps the heat in more.

Okay, right.

I don't know about that, but also makes you think before you enter.

Yeah, that would be a good idea.

I really want to bend down to go in there.

Yeah, so I mean, yeah, that's okay.

Three lost to the tennis court, one Venn diagram overlap of two lost hillo doors, the lintels of a door.

That's it.

Do you think it's because kings wouldn't die of normal things that normal people would die of, of like so?

No starvation.

Well, siblings, maybe they would, but yeah, as in they're more likely to die of weird things.

It was obviously a much more dangerous time in terms of overall mortality.

And I think I don't know if kings lived longer or shorter than the average.

They must have lived longer because they were better fed, apart from anything.

They were better fed, yeah.

They might have been washed occasionally, at least twice a year.

Yeah, but you have more kind of aristocratic accidents and things like that.

Yeah, because you've got more horsing and

hunting.

Certainly in ancient France, they did have a lot of aristocratic accidents at the end of the 18th century, didn't they?

Oh yeah, loads.

They really racked up.

Horses were a big one.

Prince Philip of France, he died when supposedly he was going through the streets and his horse tripped over a black pig that was running out of a dung heap.

That's bad luck, isn't it?

That's bad luck.

Yeah.

There was another one who rode a horse off a cliff, if you remember.

He was just careless.

It's easy to do.

I almost ran off a cliff.

On a horse?

Not on a horse.

You almost ran off a cliff, sorry?

Yeah, in Australia, I was going to the beach and I saw the beach in the distance and I didn't have my glasses on me, and I just ran and ran and ran.

And as I got to the edge of the cliff, I dove to the ground and managed to stop myself.

Just I don't know where you've been let out at all.

That's incredible.

That's easy to do.

Have you heard of Carloman II of West Francia?

Actually, no.

Can you tell me all about him, please?

I only know about his death, sadly, but it's an unusual death.

He died after being stabbed in the leg by his servant, Bertoldus, while they were being attacked by a wild boar.

So at this point we've got two low-hanging door deaths.

We've got three horse deaths, we've got three tennis court deaths, and we have now two pig-based deaths as well.

That's interesting.

There's a lot of grouping going on here.

Yeah, do you know any other pillow fight deaths than the one I'm about to tell you?

Martin Luther King.

Martin Luther King had a pillow fight

the day before he died, but it wasn't what killed him.

Yeah, I think it might even have been the day of.

It might have been like one of the last things he did.

Start from the beginning.

Thank God you're here.

This show would implode on itself.

So Charles II de Valois, who was the son of Francis I,

he and his friends came across a load of buildings that had been closed off due to the plague.

And he said to his friends, no son of a king of France has ever died of plague.

And so they went into these houses that had been closed off and they sort of rolled around on the beds and had a pillow fight.

Full of sleaze, those beds.

Well, full of, yeah, full of not nice stuff.

And sure enough, a couple of days later, he contracted the plague and he died.

That's bad.

That's hubris.

That's really hubristic, yeah.

That's bad.

Louis the Ninth, also of France,

buried in Notre Dame.

So

getting quite eminent now, you know, buried and now cremated due to the recent fire.

Oh, oh,

yeah.

Too soon, Philippa.

Too soon.

It takes about five years.

There's a theory that he died because he refused to eat the local food when he was travelling.

He starved?

No, it's worse than that.

He was leading the Eighth Crusade in 1270 AD.

Oh, that one.

And he supposedly refused to have any vegetables because it was, you know, sort of foreign muck.

And he only wanted...

He only wanted old sausage that were two years old from home.

And he had terrible scurvy, we think, and didn't take any vegetables from the surrounding countryside.

That's a

slightly simplified version.

Well, he wouldn't have known, of course, that that was

scurvy.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

The arrogance you get from being royal is really dangerous, isn't it?

You think you won't get plague.

You think you don't need vegetables.

Do you think as a therapist that you would ever accept a case of a royal?

Would it be very fascinating or too?

I couldn't possibly say.

Don't be stupid harry no don't be dumb

charles the mad of the par that's the one he was called charles the silent ultimate

no no i i haven't seen a royal it's not fun therapizing very famous people yes because the point of knowing very famous people is to gossip about them and you know on pain of death you can't so it's no fun at all

i've always wondered if i i've

I'd like to have a therapist, but I want to I almost feel like this needs therapy in itself.

I would want a therapist who I found who is a famous therapist.

Wow.

Yeah.

Anyway,

I mean, we could analyse why you want to see a famous therapist, but I'm not going to do that in public.

Okay.

I can give you a clue.

He's just obsessed with famous people.

But it's no, it's not that I want to, I want there's something interesting about them being famous and then becoming a therapist.

I don't know.

There's something interesting to me.

I'll shorten it.

There's something interesting about your projection onto that.

There's nothing interesting about the therapists themselves.

Yeah, that's right.

There you go.

There we go.

Okay.

That's done.

So that saved you a lot of trouble.

That's immediate invoice.

5,000.

Jesus.

We'll have to do a lot of Squarespace adverts.

Anyway, back to kings, back to kings.

Here's the thing.

So this is, James, you mentioned the French Revolution,

as it happened.

And so after the deaths of Louis XVI, wasn't it?

And Marie Antoinette,

there was a son.

They had a son who would have been Louis XVIII,

who had very sadly died, but this wasn't really widely known in France at the time.

And there was this spell where dozens of impostors came out of the woodwork, claiming to be the missing Dauphin.

And this word spread, and this is a really rare word.

It's called the faux domina faux manie.

I wonder why that stayed rare.

Faudo phanomani,

meaning the and faux meaning false.

I think you needn't bother with the other syllables,

but faudo phanomani, I just love that.

And they had and they had varying degrees of success.

You know, some of them were very clearly, one of them was Native American and just and still managed to succeed, actually.

He was called Reverend Eliezer Williams, who did persuade some people.

But, yeah,

Charles II of Navarre, he was known as Charles the Bad.

He was sick and he was wrapped from head to toe in bandages soaked in brandy.

Well, you might absorb some of that.

That would be nice.

That'd be a good way of getting your kicks, wouldn't it?

But unfortunately, he was placed next to an open flame.

Oh, no.

No!

No!

They're not bright, are they?

They're not bright, this French royal family, at all.

Because I think it's fair to not know that vegetables cause scurvy, but I think at that stage, everyone knew that.

Brandy is flammable.

Yes, i think so gosh but what i like about him his mother was joan ii who was the queen of navarre uh and in 1328 she lost the areas of champagne and brie careless

of all the areas of france you want to lose you don't always

know you really don't the brandy the brandy one there's so um the brother of king richard iii his death was he was to be executed and so he asked that as part of his execution could he be drowned but could he be drowned in a barrel of maln sea wine so that was his choice.

Yeah, so he, yeah, I haven't drunk it myself or drowned in it, but he that's, yeah, that was his way out.

Alleged, obviously.

Speaking of kings being dipped in unusual liquids.

Oh, yes.

I can't believe we found our way there.

Louis XVIII of France.

His death is not interesting, but his afterlife is fascinating.

So he was the first king to be disinfected, his body after death.

So he was washed with chlorides of lime, which slows down decomposition.

Okay.

And it was so he could be presented to the public without odor.

And this doesn't smell limey, if anything, which would be nice.

I think

it's that sort of lime.

It's not that kind of lime, sadly.

Be careful when you go to a bar.

If you say, can I have some lime with my gin and tonic?

Yeah.

Don't get quick lime.

Don't get the one that's.

Quick lime is not.

Oh, no.

Okay.

All right.

Oh, boy.

Anyway.

Another tragic death.

It's not even a French royal.

Okay, it is time for fact number three, and that is Andy.

My fact is that the Natural History Museum's collection of whale bones is so significant, they won't tell anyone where it is.

So, this is this bizarre installation that the Natural History Museum's got, and it's and where is it?

I don't know.

Come on, Andy.

Tell us.

It's secret.

It's really secret.

What's so valuable about whale bones?

Well, it's an amazing archive of all sorts of uh species.

So it's it's not only whales, it's dolphins, porpoises, and it's it's one of the most complete collections in the world.

And they get a lot of bodies post-mortem if there have been whales or dolphins stranded.

You know, they get the skeleton in the end.

And what it means is if you have the skeleton, you can study all kinds of things about it.

You can study diet, you can study the habitat.

I know where they live.

They live in the sea.

I mean, you're not selling it to me me, this place.

Well,

which is where this guy who set up this place should go back to.

Release some real estate wherever it is, mate.

Well, the things we do know about it, the secret location, supposedly it's behind a 10-foot-tall door, so we can assume it's not in old France.

Oh, it's great for the French royal family.

But

10 foot tall balls.

Is that because some of the bones are just so huge huge they need to?

No, actually,

they might be tall and long, but if you put them the other way up, you can get them through the door.

But it's a good point.

The article which this came from, which is a Guardian article and the journalists went around looking into it, does not answer the question, why is it secret?

As in, okay, great, it's the biggest complete collection in sovereignty.

Just security.

But from who?

But no one's going around to steal whether it's maybe the Smithsonian, right?

Who have the other largest collection?

Did you see their collection?

No, no, no.

Is that secret as well?

It's actually, they're a bit more confident, I think.

They publicly list the location.

They have more animals.

They have more individual animals.

So 10,000.

And they also, this is incredible, they have the largest blue whale jawbone ever found.

Yeah.

Which means that that is the largest bone of any animal ever found on the planet in its entire history.

Wow.

It's bigger than a...

Oh, yeah, because it's bigger than dinosaurs.

Blue whale is the biggest animal ever to have lived.

Of course.

And that's the biggest bone in the biggest animal.

And they have it.

Wow.

I find that interesting, that the biggest bone in a whale is its jawbone, actually.

I don't know why I find that interesting, but that is

not in humans.

No, you're right.

No.

Well, it wouldn't be the pelvis on a whale, would it?

On the femur.

They've got big pelvises, though.

Have they?

Oh, yeah.

Have they?

Oh, yeah.

They have.

Oh, their pelvises are so interesting.

I thought they sort of tapered off towards the end.

My bad.

Well, because there's this whole thing that they have vesidual pelvises, right?

These legs that have, that have, when they were walking on land and then they didn't need them all.

So you can see that.

No,

they went back in the sea.

They went back in.

They got out of the sea and then someone said, get in the sea.

Yeah.

And they went back in the sea.

I think it was Philippa Perry from

but um yeah so the story that I read and this is from 2014 what they've noticed is a correlation between the size of the pelvis and the testes and penis and they think that with the muscles in between the pelvis is basically used as a a manoeuvring object for when they're having sex in the sea.

It's a thruster.

Yeah it's a thruster, it's a gripper, it's a controller.

It's a controller.

So the more the more convoluted the pelvis is, the better control the whale will have over its penis.

And that means that if it's a but you can tell how promiscuous the species of whale is by the shape of the pelvis.

That is fascinating.

Because a more convoluted one means more control.

In the animal kingdom, do you think?

Or in the mammal kingdom?

Are you just thinking about your own pelvis right now?

I can't think of anything else.

I don't know what that says about me.

Yeah.

But it's thought to be visigil, isn't it?

And this is the thing that we talk about, but they still use use it.

And also for the female whales, they think that it's possibly used for controlling the clitoris, but we can't see that because we don't have any of the bones or anything that remain.

And we don't have scanners in the ocean, so how can we see whales having sex?

They're trying to do things where they can, you know, mock up CGI, but that hasn't been done yet.

Do we know how whales have sex?

Very, very carefully.

No, that's hedgehogs.

Sorry.

Like most mammals would do it doggy style, right?

I think it's like that, yeah.

But we piped it, I'm not sure.

I mean, one of your facts in the first ever episode of Fish was about grey whales having sex in threesomes.

That is true, and there's always, which means there's always a spare penis just flopping.

I always find that's handy.

I was just on this, I was reading the other day.

One thing with whales is quite often a lot of the ones that we have in the museum kind of washed up, right?

They washed up on the beach and then we collected them and put them in museums.

And this is a thing that humans do, which is when a whale kind of goes on a beach, we decide that we need to clean it up there's a few lots of different reasons one they smell terrible but two they attract sharks so if you've got a dead whale sharks love it and you'll get more sharks in the area

but i was reading an article in what's that magazine that we all like online it's about the sea

magazine yeah

and they were saying that basically a beached whale was a really important ecosystem before humans used to take them all away.

In 2020, there was a whale that washed up on a Dutch island and they left it there, and they found it was visited by 57 species of beetle, and 21 of them had never been seen in that area before.

So, they just kind of came out of the woodwork and got on this.

And in Russia, they found a whale in the north coast, and they found that 180 polar bears were eating on this single carcass.

But of course, now, as soon as a whale gets washed up, we get rid of it, and it means that all these animals don't have the massive bounty that they would have otherwise had.

Oh,

because yeah, it is amazing, even not on land, but in the ocean, when a whale dies and it falls to the bottom, that's the beginning of a new city, basically.

It's an extraordinary thing.

You get every kind of life coming and living there.

It's like dropping a skyscraper down.

How

long do blue whales live?

Biggest creatures.

Is it 200 or 300 years?

It's a long time, isn't it?

It's well over 100.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Why?

I'm just interested.

Usually the larger animal is, the longer longer it lives, right?

Generally speaking.

Yeah.

And there are, we've, I think we've said before there are some whales alive today that were alive before Moby Dick was written.

Blind.

Pretty cool.

Yeah.

That's a really interesting thing about whales, which is that they have more cells.

So you think they would get more cancer.

And you would think that the bigger an animal is, the more cancer it should get because it has more cells that could go wrong, but that doesn't happen and we're not sure why.

Maybe we need to study the bones and find out.

If only we could find these.

If only we had a depository of a massive amount of whale bones somewhere.

Can I tell you, this is pretty on topic for me.

I found an article headlined, Whale Bones, the World's Most Endangered Bryophyte Habitat.

Bryophytes is another word for mosses, and it is an article

in the British Bryological Society Journal.

I love this.

This is by a guy called Jeff Duckett, right?

It was written a while ago now.

And he says, however many times you've seen them, there is always a certain enchantment at finding members of the splachnaceae on dung, pellets, and rotting cadavers.

This is a particular family of mosses.

The stimulus for my present study was the chance discovery of Tetrapolodon monoides growing on a decades-old whale skeleton, the centerpiece in an Icelandic garden.

What was initially supposedly a bryophyte-free holiday on Iceland then turned into a systematic search for mosses on whale bones?

Imagine his wife.

She's like, we're going to go to Iceland.

There can't be any moss in Iceland.

He's like Poirot, where Poirot always goes on holiday and then a murder happens.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, my God.

Can I get down my favourite book?

Yes, please.

Wow,

my favourite book.

Whale's Bones.

Wow.

We've mentioned this very briefly on the podcast before, but it's called Whale's Bones of the British Isles.

And we only mentioned it a couple hundred episodes ago, so I think it's ripe for a retread.

Oh, it was episode 28.

So

please, can I mention this a second time?

It's by Nicholas Redmond and his son, and they are a father and son team.

They spent 30 years travelling the UK just finding whalebone arches.

This was a huge thing in the 19th century.

You'd make an arch out of a whale's jawbone, and there used to be a very famous one in Edinburgh.

And sort of solo standing, that was.

Yeah.

Just sort of like out, out in the field.

Or a pub sign.

Look at that.

The signboard of this public house in Downham is supported by a whale's jawbone.

They were...

They are big, those jawbones.

They're massive.

They were used for fencing.

Just on that picture that you showed,

the jawbone went to the, just above the height of the actual pub itself.

Yeah.

So that's how tall it is for someone who's imagining it.

Yeah.

And the fence posts and crane hoist supports.

I'm just reading the list of different uses now.

Footstools, milking stools, benches, stepping stones.

Amazing material.

Yeah.

So, and yeah, this is just, this book is such a label.

This is why the bit of the museum that houses the whale bones has to be top secret because it's such useful material.

And we'll start building houses out of them if we find where it is.

That's lovely.

This secret room.

So, the person who runs this secret room, or at least is the head curator who seems to be asked about it a lot, is Richard Sabin.

And I actually met Richard years ago.

I went for a tour of the Natural History Network here.

Yeah, exactly.

An industrial state off the M1 that he just by chance wanted to meet you at.

Where?

Where?

Makes it a 10-foot door.

Don't go through that door.

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Okay, it is time for our final fact of the show, and that is James.

Okay, my fact this week is that Jared Manley Hopkins once had nothing to drink for a week for a bet.

He only stopped when his tongue went black.

Good.

He did that at school, I think.

He did, yeah, and he went to school high game.

He argued that everyone had more liquids than the body needed.

Everyone was drinking too much, that's what he decided.

And people said, No, no, what do you mean by that?

And he really stuck by his guns.

And he said, No, I reckon I can go without any liquids for at least a week.

Okay, so he did this bet with one of the other boys, and not only his tongue went black, but he also collapsed.

And, you know, in the middle of a, you know, PE

PE would be the time you would collapse, yeah, absolutely.

Um, but the headmaster, who is called John Bradley Dine, he sort of really punished him, uh, and he was forced to return the money that he'd, you know, because he got the guy said, Well, you know, you've done pretty well, so I'm going to give you the money, but he was forced to give it back, and he complained that he was being punished more than the other boy because not the other boy they both got punished, but he also had to give the money back, right?

And that just made the headmaster hate him even more.

And he got, you know, he had a bit of a bad time at high gate.

He

was a very original thinker.

And authorities, like many teachers, don't like that.

They just want obedient children that don't ask too many questions.

And I expect he really irritated all his teachers because he was probably cleverer than they were.

But the thing with the liquids,

isn't there a theory that if you ever have a pee, oh, that shows you've been drinking too much.

No, no, you're born handy now.

Every time you have a pea, you're like, oh, you know what?

I should have cut down on the drinking tea.

Your pea should look like champagne, not stewed tea.

Yeah, whereas if you're not drinking very much, it will look like stewed tea.

Why is in cubes?

Is that a problem?

It's probably a problem when you're squeezing it out, I should think.

Yeah, okay, no, so he didn't think that.

He just thought people...

It's a weird thing to decide that people are drinking too much.

As in as a weirdly...

Well, it would have been just a school argument that got out of hand right now.

Yeah, that's all that.

He did the same thing with salt, didn't he?

He abstained from salt for a week for the same reason he wanted to show.

Yeah.

But what I think this shows is that he could steer his mind rather than just go with the flow and not be thoughtful and not be influenced.

He could decide where he wanted to go in life rather than just be blown about in the wind.

And these experiments he were doing, I think they're wonderful experiments.

So what can I do?

What can my body do?

What am I capable of?

Yeah.

Should we say who he is?

Just quickly.

Because, Philip, you are a fan, aren't you?

Yeah, I did him for A-level.

I got a crush.

And

I bet he was gay, actually.

I was just thinking about this now, and I'm feeling slightly disappointed that I wouldn't have stood a chance.

I'm afraid from the research, he absolutely was.

Yeah.

Damn.

Just quickly, he's like, really, really famous Victorian poet.

Oh, yeah, that.

He was a friend of Robert Bridges.

Another poet.

Yeah, that's right.

And

he was sort of like late 19th century, wasn't he?

I didn't realise that's a really good thing.

He invented something called sprung rhythm, which is, I caught the smorning's morning's minion dappled dawn drawn high there on a wimpling whim.

Do you see what I mean?

You dance.

The words dance, it's sort of.

And where did you go there in terms of if I was reading that on the page, am I on a third line or was that one line?

I can't remember.

Right, but it's not like pentameter where you've got five feet.

Ba-bum-ba-bum-ba-bam-ba-bum-ba-bum.

Yeah, ba-bam-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-bam.

It can go on forever and seems to fly like the birds he's talking about.

Yeah, it's very jazzy.

Yeah, and I was very taken with it as a keen A-level student, and

he made me cry.

I loved him so much.

It was just so beautiful.

And he never got to see any of it because he wasn't published until post-his death, 30 years after his death.

He never got fangirled by me, which is probably quite glad of.

He was very slightly Hawaiian.

Really?

Tell me more.

Strong Hawaiian connection in his life, basically.

He wasn't personally Hawaiian and stuff.

His uncle used to live there, are you?

Look, can you let me tell the story, Dan?

Right.

He just ate a lot of pineapple and he looked.

He had a favourite pizza.

His dad was the Hawaiian Consul General in London.

And you're right, Dan.

Yes, his uncle Charles had moved to Hawaii, but had fully learned the language and had established an Anglican bishopric in Honolulu.

So I think he had lived there and then I think his father, who was called Manley Hopkins, that was his dad's name.

The son was Jared Manley Hopkins, must have visited and been and sort of become the representative.

I just think that's cool.

You don't think of that with

Manny Hopkins, you know.

Well, because his family were Protestant, like you say, but then he just decided he was going to become Roman Catholic, didn't he?

And he was already writing some amazing poetry at that time.

But when he became Roman Catholic, he decided to burn it all.

I'm just like, this was, I'm just going to get rid of everything.

I'm just going to stop becoming a poet.

I'm just going to never do any poetry.

I'm going to get rid of all my poetry.

I just don't understand that split with his parents because his parents sound really cool because they encouraged his original thinking.

And his mother was unusually highly educated for the time and also encouraged him.

And do you think he went Roman Catholic because that's easier to be gay, so you don't have to get married like you might if you're an Anglican.

We do know that he went, so like when he converted,

he was trying to come home to see his family and so on for Christmases and stuff like that.

And there are letters that sort of show that he would write to his dad saying, is it okay that I come back to the house?

And the situation.

Because he's doing because he's changed his mind.

Yeah, because the worry was that, and this was the condition, yes, you can come home.

But absolutely, by under no means, can you convert your brothers and sisters to your religion?

So he had to promise he would not do that when he came back home.

It wasn't a complete rift as i'd been led to believe well it might have it might have turned into that but certainly for the first two christmases after this letter he was allowed to go back home and do that and he did you have to wear a le like everyone else at christmas you have to say aloha like all the rest of us

oh i know it's running a bit short yeah yeah

um can i just say about the when he burnt everything yeah so he burned everything at the age of 24 as in everything he wrote before the age of 24 he burned he um but and it was as you say james because he got faith um and he gave up creativity because because he couldn't reconcile his faith with his creativity So he gave up writing for seven years and and became a Jesuit but what's the one thing you would do before becoming a Jesuit?

It's the one thing that's not allowed you want to have one last crazy blowout

Yeah

have a wank well yeah

he did like orgasm you can see a lot of metaphor for sort of orgasm things in the poem

are there when he used to used to notice it we'll get back to yours in a second but he used to note that in his diary there there was a secret code.

He used to say OH, which was old habits, and the old habits was

having a wank.

Well, it might have just been the same.

Oh!

Okay, so the...

So what did he do before

surfing?

He ate a bit of fruit.

No?

He visited Switzerland, which banned Jesuits from entering the country.

So he took his opportunity to

visit Switzerland, which might be code as well.

Actually saying it now, it sounds like code.

Visited Switzerland again this morning.

Oh!

Oh!

Oh!

I can't yodel me.

His big first poem, really sort of the one that he's largely known for these days, which

is Wreck of the Deutschland.

That's it, correct?

Yeah, so he wrote that.

It was based on a shipwreck from the 1800s, 1875.

And he was inspired by a group of nuns who were on the shipwreck who sort of prayed to God as they were going down, and that gave him the inspiration.

And he, as part of writing it, created this amazing new technique in poetry, which it was called

Sprung Rhythm.

And so he sent it, he sent it into a Jesuit magazine called The Month to have it published, and they rejected it.

And the article I was reading just had this really nice little

sort of nugget of fact, which is that something that did make it into the Jesuit magazine as a poem was written by someone, a student, who identified himself as OFO apostrophe FWW.

Any idea who that could be?

Gosh.

O O F O F W W sounds like something to do with WWF.

That's World Wrestling Fair.

No, it's not.

So

it's Oscar Fingle O Flattery Wills Wilde.

It was Oscar Wilde's first ever published poem that made it into the Jesuit.

Yeah.

That's very nice.

Yeah, exactly.

Lovely.

Dan, I think you said flattery instead of flattery.

Oh, did I?

Sorry.

Flattery.

Flattery Flattery will get you nowhere.

I really hope someone gave Oscar Wilde a fun little sign for his house saying, flattery will get you nowhere.

For the loo or something.

It's just

cute.

Oh, flatterity.

So that was the...

That was the Jesuits.

Sorry,

that was the hinge moment at which Oscar Wilde got his break and Hopkins didn't.

Because you said nothing he wrote was published until 30 years after he died.

That's sort of true.

It's sort of slightly untrue, because Robert Bridges...

So who's that?

Robert Bridges.

He was an established poet.

I think they met as fellows at Oxford or something.

Yeah, and he was someone who Manly Hopkins would go to in order to impress and say, can you help me out?

And he read this amazing poem that we were just talking about, The Wreck, and he was like, I don't want to read that again.

That was painful.

That was really hard.

But he sort of post-death became a champion of him.

And so he thought the writing style was so difficult.

that Hopkins was doing that he would publish six poems as a sort of teaser taster just to get you used to to the rhythms of this guy before publishing his collected works 30 years after his death.

So there was a sort of like, you know, like putting out like a trailer episode of podcasts.

Yeah, you know, it was kind of like that.

He was also friends with Christina Rossetti, wasn't he?

Yeah.

She was also very religious.

She wrote In the Bleak Midwinter, for instance.

And I read one interesting club.

You made it sound like that was why she liked to write.

She wrote the Da Vinci Code, but it was in the bleak midwinter, wasn't it?

but she, I read this about her, which is really interesting: that she had a habit of stooping up to pick up stray pieces of paper in the street in case they had the Lord's name on them.

Nice, kind of.

So there's a bit of paper, and she's like, Well, I don't want it blown away if it says Jesus on it, so I'm just going to pick it up just in case.

She was the first person to collect those shopping lists that people make blogs out of, and she didn't like that, so she goes, Oh, no, I'm just looking for Jesus.

Do you want to hear a few words that Hopkins invented?

Please, yeah,

inscape, which is the essential quality of something, of anything really.

Yeah,

when kingfishers catch fire, meaning when you see that sort of flash of their colour, he meant that was like deep in the core of them, and then it and then it rippled out into the world, but it sort of came from a their essence.

Inscape is sort of like the essence of a thing.

Nice.

He also coined the word stressy.

Stressy?

Yeah, but he used it to mean poetry that is characterized by stress and rhythm on the words rather than brilliant.

And no one, he wrote it in private correspondence.

So he wrote it well before anyone else said, I'm feeling really stressy today.

Has anyone ever said that?

I don't think I've ever said stressy, actually.

Don't be so stressy.

Don't be so stressy.

I think I said stress.

People say it to me all the time.

The effect you have.

Shivlite.

That's another word by him.

Shivlite.

Shivlight.

So S-H-I-V-E light.

So it might be Shivlite or Shiv Light in pronunciation.

That means shimmery or something.

It's really beautiful.

You know, when you're walking through a wood and the sunlight passes through a tree and it breaks the

beams.

The beams, that's a shivlight.

The shivlight you see is what breaks through the beams.

And silian is another word that he came up with.

It's the act of plowing a field and it's the sort of rich soil, the shiny soil that you get on a newly plowed field.

He had something that he felt so deeply about that language could not describe.

He just made his own language up for it.

So cool.

Would his poems have had to have like a little glossary at the end to tell you what it means or would it be clear?

Only in the A-level notes,

which I deeply relied on.

You're right.

That is what, yeah.

His love life is very sad and thwarted, basically, because he was he seems to have been gay, in love with one man who died very tragically young and then never really recovered from that.

He was in love with a young man called Digby Mackworth Dolburn,

who I just like this fact about him so I like it so much.

He was expelled from Eton.

Can you guess what for?

Wanking.

No,

it's not always the answer,

but it will be.

It will be, it will be.

How were you on Mastermind that cycle?

Disaster.

Clean that chair.

Jake started.

I need to finish.

What was it?

Dicky Mackworth Dolburn was

expelled from Eton.

You're never going to get it in a million years for wandering the countryside dressed as a medieval monk.

That's right, shoeless.

That's so sweet.

Isn't it?

I can see why you fancied him.

Yeah, he was sort of like imaginary world living in, a little bit poetic, flowing robes.

Yeah.

I know.

And Hopkins confessed his love to his confessor because I think he was a fair bit older than Dolby.

And then the confessor said, Well, you can't have any contact with him except by letter.

Oh,

that's practically saying text him now, isn't it?

Oh, oh, oh.

And then Dolby tragically drowned just two years later.

He was age 19.

So young.

It's really sad.

Oh, that was a bit of a creepy age gap, actually.

But, you know.

Yeah, I was sort of glossing over that.

Yeah,

I'm sure we have enough, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah.

Unless I can somebody read us just one poem, come on, do you have one?

Well, I do have one

spring and fall to a young child.

Margaret, are you grieving over golden grove unleaving leaves like the things of man you with your fresh thoughts care for?

Can you?

Ah, as the heart grows older, it will come to such sights colder.

By and by, nor spare a sigh, though whirls of one wood leaf meal lie, and yet you will weep and know why.

Now, no matter child the name, sorrow springs are the same.

Nor mouth had, nor mind expressed what heart heard of, ghost guessed.

It is the blight man was born for.

It is Margaret you mourn for.

Okay, that's it.

That is all of our facts.

Thank you so much for listening.

If you'd like to get in contact with any of us about the things that have been said over the course of this podcast, we can be found on our Twitter accounts.

I'm on at Schreiberland, James,

Andy,

and Philippa.

Philippa underscore Perry, I think.

I'm not sure.

It might just be Philippa Perry.

No, it's Philippa underscore Perry.

Okay.

Or you can go to our group account, which is at no such thing, or our website, no such thingasafish.com.

All of our previous episodes are up there.

And do make sure, more important than anything else, to look out for the future book of Philippa Perry.

Let's see if she can remember what it's called.

The book you wish everyone you love

would read and some of those you don't.

That won't be published for

for months.

No, not until October the 20th.

Yeah.

In the meantime, you could buy the book you wish your...

Oh, fuck, I can't remember.

The book you wish your parents had read.

And your children will be glad that they did.

You did.

That you did.

It's a long time since I've done any publicity for that one.

That's fine.

Rice Babies will also be available this coming fall by me, Dan Schreiber.

Otherwise, come back next week.

We're going to have another episode, another guest.

We'll see you then.

Goodbye.

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