338: No Such Thing As Carthaginian YouTube

Dreaming of buying your first car or new home?

Knowing your FICO score is the first step to making it real.

With My FICO, you can check your score for free and it won't hurt your credit.

You'll get your FICO score, full credit reports, and real-time alerts all in one simple app.

Your credit score is more than just numbers, it's the key to building the future you've been working toward.

Visit myfico.com/slash free or download the MyFICO app and take the mystery out of your FICO score.

Hey, if you listen to iHeart K-Pop with JoJo, let me say thank you and turn you on to something next level.

Hello, Soju's sparkling Soju.

It's light, sparkling, and packed with five delish flavors.

My two faves: peach and Asian pear.

Oh my god.

Smoother than hard seltzer and much more fun than beer.

This drink is all about good times and sharing vibes.

And trust me, once you try it, you'll get why everybody's talking about it.

Order now and take 15% off your first order.

Just enter code JoJo15 at checkout at hellosoju.com.

Hello, Soju.

Every sip is a hit.

Please enjoy responsibly.

Hi, everyone.

James here.

Now, before we start this week's show, just a couple of bits of business.

First of all, this episode was recorded while Anna was still away, and so her place has been taken by one of my oldest friends, the absolute genius that is Jenny Ryan.

Now, if you're a fan of quiz shows, you would know her as the Vixen of the Chase.

If you're a fan of singing talent shows, you might remember her from Celebrity X Factor last year, where she got to the final.

If you're a fan of podcasts, which I know you are, you might know her from Fingers on Buzzers, the brilliant quiz-based podcast that Jenny does with comedian Lucy Porter.

And actually, if you go into the back catalogue of Fingers on Buzzers, you might find an old episode with myself and Anna Tashinsky on.

If you are missing her so much that you really need to hear her dulcet tones, okay, on with the podcast.

Hello, and welcome to another episode of No Such Thing as a Fish, a weekly podcast coming to you from four undisclosed locations in the UK.

My name is Dan Schreiber.

I'm sitting here with Andrew Hunter Murray, James Harkin, and special guest, Jenny Ryan.

And once again, we have gathered round our microphones with our four favorite facts from the last seven days.

And in no particular order, here we go.

Starting with you, Jenny.

Here we go.

Trigger warning for grossness.

One theory of the origin of the nursery rhyme Pussycat Pussycat is that it's a reference to Queen Anne's poor personal hygiene and an accumulation of grime that once fell out of her skirt during a service at St.

Paul's Cathedral.

Wow.

Wow.

Okay.

Where to start with that one?

Okay, well, let's start with the

actual nursery rhyme because not everyone might know it, right?

So how's it going?

Andy, why don't you regale us with that?

Oh, it's pussycat, pussycat, where have you been?

I've been up to London to look at the Queen, followed by loads more lines

of

pussycat.

What did you there?

I've chased a little mouse under her chair, or I've frightened a little mouse.

That's actually the important bit now, I think.

That is the important bit, yeah.

Yeah.

So it's thought that that little mouse is a mouse shaped deposit of

all sorts of things that might accumulate in a time when nobody really had a bath or washed their nethers

so supposedly this this particular lump was known as a sootikin although that may be a more modern name for them

because they resembled little mice and people would have to go and sweep them up off the streets.

Hang on.

Are you saying that the TV series Sooty and Sweep has anything to do with this?

No.

Thanks for that.

Okay, great.

Well, I can.

My childhood is intact.

I will, I'll link them up somehow, right?

So the word Suttikins does exist.

It was, it comes from the Dutch.

It was kind of a joke about Dutch women, supposedly.

They would put heaters up their dresses to keep warm.

And some people thought that by doing so, they were breeding a small animal up there, and that the animal would kind of drop out, and they would find this thing.

And the word came from the word soot.

It's similar to the word soot, as in the stuff you get in a chimney.

And of course, sootty and sweep is a pun on the fact that chimney sweeps would also find soot.

So they are linked in a way, Andy, if that's what you're doing.

Oh, great.

Okay, no, much harder than Israel.

And then thank you very much.

Yeah, brilliant.

What kind of person was running so low on inspiration for nursery rhymes that when they saw a mess-shaped mouse fall out of the queens

that they thought this is perfect for kids?

Well, I think what we should say is that most explanations for nursery rhymes are speculative at best.

And there was a couple called Iona and Peter Opie who wrote the Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes.

And they basically came to the conclusion that all of these things that people think probably not true and also that they might just be kind of nice words that kind of sound like a good poem, and there might not be any reasoning behind them all.

So, whether that's true or whether it's not, I don't know.

But the other thing is that Queen Anne had quite a lot of enemies, right?

So, it's possible that if this is true, this origin, that it was people trying to say bad things about her and you know that.

Oh, yeah, it was basically gossip, wasn't it?

The nursery rhymes, you've had a way of spreading anything is to make it into a little folk song and get it spreading around the streets of London.

Weirdly, this is not the only nursery rhyme that Queen Anne is supposedly involved with.

Really?

Yeah, there's another one.

Okay, so do you remember the warming pan baby?

Nope.

So

Anne, when she wasn't queen yet, she was in line to the throne, and so was her older sister Mary.

And their dad was James II, who was king.

And in 1688, James II had a son, a baby boy, with his new wife, which displaced Mary and Anne from the line of succession.

So they were kind of lowered down the rung now.

And Anne was furious about this.

She refused to attend the birth.

And there was a rumor spread that the baby had not been born alive.

It had been a miscarriage, and actually, a live baby had been smuggled into the bedroom in a warming pan, which were these big sort of brass pans that you would put hot coals in to warm up the bed.

Right.

That's the story.

Okay.

It's also untrue, but we might get the nursery rhyme rock-abye baby

from

that child really what and what's the explanation behind it it's incredibly spurious okay

that

thing about change about how you thought that someone might swap the baby isn't that why and i'm going to get this wrong but isn't the home secretary supposed to be at every birth isn't the home secretary every royal birth not every birth

It might not be the home secretary.

No, it is.

It is.

It is the home secretary, yeah.

Who's the current home secretary?

Pretty Patel.

Pretty Patel.

Oh, man.

Imagine if she had to go around to every single birth in the country.

But she would be saying, get back in there, get back in there.

Don't want you, don't want you.

Go on.

Back up you go.

I love that idea that you would sort of shame people in history via children telling rhymes.

We don't do that so much these days.

That'd be an incredible satirical kids' program where it's just us shaming politicians and so on with new songs that we put out.

There was a nursery rhyme when I was a kid, which was called Maggie Thatcher Sticker in the Bin.

So, in a way, it still does continue that there will

probably sing Boris Johnson's sticker in the bin now.

It'll be any prime minister.

Maggie Thatcher sticker in the bin, put the lid on, seller, tape her in.

And I remember when

she actually resigned as prime minister, they came in and told us in the classroom, and we all sang it.

Really?

Wow.

I think we're about

eight.

We had also Maggie Thatcher Milksnatcher kind of a little rhyme about that, didn't we?

Yeah.

Hey, just very quickly for international listeners, and I included myself slightly in this because I'm not au fait with the British monarchy's history, but Queen Anne was a queen from her birth date was 1665 to 1714.

And there's not really been much about her.

She's not one of the more popular people for pop culture, except for the fact that she had the movie The Favorite, which was a fairly recent one, which Olivia Coleman won the Oscar for the portrayal of her.

But outside of that, she kind of slips through the cracks a bit in terms of people's knowledge about her.

And the only stuff that really comes through is...

all this quite shaming sort of information about her.

People attacking her for her looks and her hygiene and all the accounts of her body size and so on.

It was claimed claimed that when she passed away 14 men had to carry her uh for her burial and i don't know if this stuff is true i don't know if this is part of the shaming of her but that's kind of what we know about it's 100 true that she did have health problems and that she was she was definitely a large lady She had a lot of gout.

She really struggled with that.

But there was definitely also a lot of,

she had a lot of enemies.

For instance, this thing at St.

Paul's Cathedral, it was a Thanksgiving ceremony after the war.

They just finished a war with either France or Spain.

Spanish succession, wasn't it?

Spanish succession.

Yeah.

I trust you to know that, Jeff.

I'll probably just throw out some half-remembered facts and then you can just fill in the gaps today, maybe.

But

they built stands along the side of the Strand and they had 4,000 children singing patriotic songs while they walked down to St.

Paul's Cathedral.

But a lot of people weren't really happy with it because they thought that Queen Anne was secretly trying to get the Jacobites back onto the English throne and that she was kind of slightly sympathetic to the Catholics.

And so there was, I mean, it was a real kind of time where the monarchy was losing a lot of its power and Parliament was kind of coming in.

And I think that's why we don't hear much about her.

It got called the Age of Party.

Wow, that sounds cool.

Well, yeah, it was.

Unfortunately, it was the age of the Whigs and the Tories, as opposed to everyone having a good time.

I was thinking it was Gatsby style.

Poor time travellers who read that sentence go, let's go there.

Everybody stank and there were no parties.

Great.

Nursery rhymes.

Yeah.

Let's do it.

Okay.

There always seems to be,

James has mentioned, there's a lot of debunked stories about...

the origins of nursery rhymes and I'm sure that some of them have been retconned into the the nursery rhymes themselves.

I mean, there's the grand old Duke of York is clearly about a failed military campaign, but there is about a dozen different ideas of who it's talking about.

Who's the current Duke of York?

Oh, I don't remember.

Anyway.

Pop Goes the Weasel.

I really like that one.

Pop Go the Weasels.

I love Pop Goes the Weasel.

That one actually is about Prince Andrew.

Yeah.

No one really knows what it means what Pop goes a weasel.

There's a lot of copy rhyming slang in there though, and references to the city road and the eagle on the city road, which is actually still there, the pub.

It is, and it has like a sign on the side of the building, doesn't it?

With the nursery rhyme on it.

Yeah, so weasel could be your weasel and stoat, your throat.

So it's like, ah, get it down, you weasel mate, when you give someone a pint of beer.

Get it down, you weasel.

Or your weasel could be your coat.

So there's an idea that it's about putting your coat into the porn shop to pay off all your debts.

And anytime a new expense comes in, pop goes the weasel.

Ah, there goes your coat again.

So

yeah,

it's a good cockney knees up.

But what I really like about it is in the 1850s, it was like a dance craze, pop goes the weasel.

So if you were a time traveler and you wanted to find a real good party, then you want to go to 1850s London because you're going to know the dance.

You're going to absolutely smash it.

You can go into your music hall and you just dance around and then at the end of it, everyone shouts out, pop goes the weasel.

And that's kind of the big sort of ending of every verse.

And it was absolutely massive.

Baby shark of its day.

So adults are doing this.

Adults are doing it, yeah.

It was, there was an advertisement in the Bath Chronicle in 1853 that offered instruction to the highly fashionable dance of pop goes the weasel.

So people would, you could pay people to teach you how to do the pop goes the weasel dance.

And even then, no one really knew what it meant.

It was just like a nonsense phrase, really.

Yes, just say, well, it's like us loving the macarena.

I don't know what the hell that means, but it's, you know,

a dancer.

Marko Sagani Makaninim Baker.

You know,

I haven't dedicated myself to understanding the lyrics.

I think it's about a lady called Macarena.

It's about a lady whose husband has gone away and she's courting all the other local boys because her husband or her boyfriend isn't there anymore.

500 years from now, people will be saying, actually, the macarena is about...

Actually, it's about Brexit.

Do you guys remember the one that goes, do your ears hang low?

Do they wobble?

Do you know?

Can you tie them in a bow?

I think.

Yeah, can you tie them in a bow?

And actually, I think it's a bow.

Do your boobs hang low?

Do your ears hang low?

I think it's do your balls hang low.

Do your balls and do your boobs are the sort of the rude versions of it.

But the assumption is, is that it was the kids' song, Do Years Hang Low?

And then when you got sort of rude kids at school going, Have you heard this version?

You would sing it.

Anyway, it turns out that the original versions were Do Your Balls Hang Low and Do Your Boobs Hang Low?

And then it got sort of turned into a more presentable for kids, Do Your Ears Hang Low?

So it was sung in wartime during World War One on the Western Front.

They would be singing it in the trenches, Do Your Balls Hang Low.

And then you had a sailor's hornpipe.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Do your balls hang low.

Can you swing them to and fro?

Can you time?

And a knock in your time.

And a bow.

Can you chuck them to the ceiling with that free and easy feeling?

Anyway, it goes.

That's amazing.

It's true.

I'd never heard that version, I don't think.

That's the only one.

I learned that one as a child.

Yeah.

These things just stay with you, don't they?

Along with, you know, Margaret Thatcher, she's our hero.

She went to very different schools.

Gave everyone in the classroom a black armband when she resigned.

Have you heard of telltale tit this is a really short one telltale tit your tongue shall be slit and all the dogs in the town shall have a little bit so i'd never heard that before but it's very common in bolton i could say all the dogs in bolton will have a little bit

but i just think that's amazing it's because it's basically a children's equivalent of saying snitches get stitches yeah yeah

your tongue will split and all the little doggies will have a little bit that's what you used to say it's terrifying

do you guys know piss a bed no

It goes, Piss a bed, piss a bed, barley, but your bum is so heavy, you can't get up.

And

this was published in the very first

nursery rhyme songbook that was printed in Britain in 1744.

It's the first time that Baba Black Sheep was ever printed

in a nursery rhyme book.

So it was called Tommy Thumb's Pretty Songbook.

And we thought there was only one copy that was left, which was held, I think, in the British Library.

But one went up for auction a few years ago um so there might be a couple more out there but it had 40 nursery rhymes in it and all the classics bar bar black sheep hickory dickory dock uh london bridge is falling down mary mary's quite contrary sing a song of sixpence and then piss a bed tommy thumb's pretty songbook they were actually all about pretty patel weren't they that was

that's where that name came from

Since you've been gone, what if Juliet got a second chance at life after Romeo and Juliet, created by the Emmy-winning writer from Schitt's Creek and Pop Music's number one hitmaker, playing October 7th through 12th at the San Jose Center for the Performing Arts.

Suffs, the new musical has made Tony award-winning history on Broadway.

We demand to be home.

Winner, best score.

We the man to be seen.

Winner, best book.

We demand to be quality.

It's a theatrical masterpiece that's thrilling, inspiring, dazzlingly entertaining, and unquestionably the most emotionally stirring musical this season.

Suffs playing the Orpheum Theater October 22nd through November 9th.

Tickets at BroadwaySF.com

Okay, it is time for fact number two and that is Andy.

My fact is that in 1862 there was a special cravat invented to stop people strangling you in the street.

Wow.

This is how would that so if I went to strangle you Andy with this, my hands go for your neck

is it is it that the cravat is so full of folds and so on I can never actually find your neck?

How's it a real pencil neck?

Yeah, no, it's um it's got spikes on the inside.

So you could go for the neck on the inside.

Oh, sorry.

The spikes are on the outside.

Oh, right, okay.

Concealed by a layer of cloth.

Yeah, don't put that on the wrong way around.

No, you're right.

You're right.

You're right.

Sorry, They're on the outside, but they're cleverly concealed by the ruffles at the front of the cravat.

And so, Dan, as soon as you probably try and put your thumbs around my windpipe, nice try, mate.

You're going to get a spiky thumb.

I also read that some of them had razor blades sewn into the folds as well.

Yeah.

Pretty intense items of clothing.

And these were designed to...

fight the menace of garottings because there was a panic.

In fact,

there were two panics in the mid-19th century about garotting.

One in 1856, and then it sort of flared up again in 1862.

And there was this massive panic about actually a relatively small crime wave of people being mugged.

And the method of mugging was someone would grab someone around the throat and then their accomplice would rob them.

Yeah, I should just say, like a garotting to me is like you get some cheese wire or something.

Like in a movie, they would get some wire and they would put it around your throat.

But this was actually more like putting someone in a sleeper hold in like a wrestling move, wasn't it?

Than yeah, yeah.

I mean, it could definitely, it could hurt you very badly.

I mean, it could absolutely, it could kill you as well.

I don't think very many people at all

were actually killed by this.

But it led to a change in the law.

The parliament passed the 1863 Garottas Act.

And yeah, this was a big panic.

There is an argument that not only did not many people die of this, no people died of it.

And it was completely made up.

So there's an argument that it was completely made up by newspapers.

So there was an MP who got mugged.

He was called Hugh Pilkington and he had his pocket watch stolen.

And they said that he was garotted when they stole his watch, but actually it seems like he wasn't really.

And then basically newspapers started calling any minor incident.

They said, oh, this was a garrotting.

And then some of the magistrates would say that it was a garotting, even though it wasn't, because they knew that the person would get more time or a stronger punishment for it.

And then, after the 1863 act,

there was no more garrottings.

But the argument among historians, a lot of them, is that there were never any in the first place.

So

it's very much what's it in The Simpsons, where it's like this rock scares away tigers or whatever it is.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But there were descriptions of how it worked.

So it would be a three-person gang, which consisted of a front stool, a back stool, and the nasty man.

Okay, so

tag yourself.

I know.

I think the front stall distracts you, who stops you and says, Oh, excuse me, do you have the time?

And then the backstool is the lookout who's making sure there are no police coming along.

And the nasty man is the one who actually does the garotting.

Yeah, I could have worked that out.

Oh, okay.

There was another thing you could buy.

In 1858, a guy called Henry Ball invented a pistol, worn on your back, which would discharge into a criminal's crotch.

So that would go, I suppose that would go for the Bacman, would it?

Yeah, that would be to take the backstool.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, no,

the grotto is going round you with the sleep board, right?

So he's a little bit more.

Oh, good point.

So that's for the nasty man.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that's nasty man.

Wow.

I can't believe it.

Hang on to the real thing.

Did that work?

Did anyone...

I'm not sure any of this stuff was.

This is a real thing.

It was real.

it was real but I don't think everyone was wearing them you know it was right

Wow imagine that you're going out just to the local pub you're wearing spikes around your neck you've got a pistol facing backwards I mean Jesus what a

this gun sounds amazing because it looks just like a little belt pack doesn't it and you but the thing is obviously you had guns weren't that advanced yet so apparently you had to reach back to cock the hammer of the gun and then you had to kind of pull a rip cord at your waistline, which would actually fire the gun and fire a lead ball into your attackers.

It would be recoil, like normally, recoil goes in one direction, but if it's firing there, you would just be kind of thrusting your crotch forward, wouldn't you?

Like, whenever you fired this gun, yeah, you would get blasted into the front stool, so you're a kind of human cannonball.

The nasty man's nowhere to be seen.

It's so amazing.

The Henry Ball belt pistol, I love it.

Or you could just hire some bodyguards to walk you to and and from the pub, like the Bayswater Brothers, who advertised.

The Bayswater Brothers, whose height is respectively six feet four inches and six feet eleven, and the united breadth of whose shoulders extends to as much as three yards, one foot five inches, give respectfully notice to the gentry and public of Paddington, Kensington, Stoute, Newington, Chelsea, Eaton Square, and Shepherdsbush that they will be most happy upon all social and jovial expeditions to escort elderly or nervous persons in the streets after dark.

Wow, that sounds great.

They sound sound great.

So they'd served several months in the police force and

they would go through any neighbourhood, even the worst garrotting districts well known.

Yeah, but they don't go south of the river, do they?

It's typical.

It's just like Cabbies all over again.

No garotting south of the river.

Wow.

Some more kind of panics.

Oh, yeah.

Because

I'm saying that this garrotting wasn't really a thing.

It might have been a thing, but that's the kind of anglo-finite It's definitely a way smaller thing than the 1863 Garottas Act would suggest.

In 1954, a load of people in Seattle were really worried because there were loads of holes in their windscreens.

And everyone was going out looking at their car and they find little holes and they didn't know what had happened.

They thought it was vandals.

They thought it might have been fallout from nuclear tests that were happening.

To be honest, not that close to Seattle, but they thought maybe it was that.

And then a load of scientists were brought in and they looked at what had happened.

And it turned out that these pits were there all along, but it was just happened that in that year, 1954, someone noticed it.

And then everyone else went, oh my God, I've got that as well.

Oh, my God, I've got that as well.

That's very funny.

That's so weird.

You have the, in 1788, you have the London monster.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Who was a guy who went around basically stabbing ladies in the skirt area,

ripping their clothes.

Sometimes he'd be presenting them with flowers and there'd be something sharp concealed within them.

Oh no.

Yeah,

it was a disgrace,

but it probably didn't happen.

Oh, okay.

There were up to 50 women reported to the police that they'd been attacked.

And it was later proven that

some of these women had inflicted wounds themselves.

You know, they were just scratched or they just ripped the dress.

But somebody did get convicted.

A woman was attacked in the January, I think, of 1790.

And

she saw a guy in the park six months later, got a boyfriend to follow him home.

It was this ex-ballet dancer who now made artificial flowers, this Welsh guy,

who got up before the beak and they found out that the worst offence they could charge him with was actually damaging clothes.

Apparently,

damaging clothes under the law at the time, because they were expensive foreign clothes, came with a harsher penalty than actually injuring these women attempting murder and stabbing.

So eventually this guy got six years, but mysteriously, there were no attacks after that, even though he probably wasn't the attacker.

But during a two-year period, women started wearing copper pans under their petticoats as a form of self-defense against the London monster.

So there is a there's a James Gilray engraving of

the monster attacking a woman and he pulls up a skirt and there's just a pan there so he's disappointed.

Yeah well you would be.

Thank you.

Did you say this was 1788 that this was happening?

1788 it started yesterday 1790.

I didn't think there were people making artificial flowers in the 1780s.

Yeah, they'd be made of silk I would guess rather than

I just sort of assumed stuff they were a thing from the 70s onwards, like kind of like plastic.

I can't believe that.

Is that what you got from that story, Andy?

Apparently, yes.

In the earliest, earliest days of this podcast, I mentioned a fact about the precursor to the London monster, which was a man who used to go around London and he would slap women on the bum and then he would run off.

And as he ran off, he would yell, Spanko!

I think he was called whipping Tom or something like that.

Can I just say with that, I think in that case, if you had a copper pan in your petticoats, then it would have the opposite effect because it would make a really nice resonant sound if you spanked someone and they

put a copper pot there, wouldn't it?

That's true.

Like playing the Tim Party.

That would be like the J.

Arthur Rank symbol at the beginning of films, wouldn't it?

It's the Spanko running on, hitting a petticoat and running off.

So was he caught?

Dan, was he caught?

Do we know?

Do we know who the real Spanko was?

Oh, Spanko?

No, I don't know anything.

That's an old memory, as Jenny was talking about, the London Monster.

He was a precursor.

But yeah, amazing character, the London Monster.

And huge panic off the back of that.

Oh, yeah.

If James Gilray's doing engravings of you, then you know you've made it.

Yeah.

I don't know James Gilray.

Was he Mr.

Engraver back then?

Oh, he was Mr., you know, your political cartoons.

Those are all those are all him.

You know, he's the Steve Bell of his day.

I didn't know who he was either, but I thought by keeping quiet, people would assume that I did.

You've definitely, definitely 100% seen his work.

Yeah, there are all the really big, complicated drawings where people have to be labeled quite precisely.

So, you know, there's a brilliant engraving.

I'm just making this up now, but you know, there'll be a monkey in a hot air balloon, but the monkey has to be labeled Britain's response to the Eritrean.

And the balloon is labeled European integration after the 1763 Act.

Oh, I don't get this at all.

But back in the day, people have one glance at it, like, yeah, I get it.

Brilliant, hilarious.

Yeah.

Mount Genius.

Okay, it's time for fact number three, and that is James.

Okay, my fact this week is that for 24 years, any ship traveling between Wellington and Nelson in New Zealand would be guided through the most dangerous section by a dolphin called Pelarus Jack.

I should have done that in a pirate voice, shouldn't I?

Would be guided through the most dangerous section by a dolphin called Pelarus Jack.

Was that better?

No.

I couldn't tell the difference.

James, what on earth is this?

This is a fact.

Okay.

Perhaps.

So

at the north end of New Zealand's South Island, there's a little stretch of water.

It's really, really perilous.

It's called the French Pass.

And there are loads of really bad currents and high waves, and it can be really difficult to get through.

And at the turn of the 20th century, any boat that was going through there would always have this dolphin alongside it.

Now, whether the dolphin was deliberately helping the humans across,

or whether it was just being a dolphin and kind of swimming in the wake of a boat, like dolphins often do.

We don't know.

Well, we do know because it didn't even know it was a dolphin.

It was just going.

But what is it?

But it was there.

It was there.

It was there.

And people believed that that's what was happening.

So people were writing at the time.

There's articles from 1905, 1906, where people said they were on this boat and the dolphin was acting as a pilot for the ships and that it would take them deliberately into the areas where the water was deeper because it knew there would be less chance of the boat being smashed on the rocks.

And then some people didn't like the dolphin being there, and some people shot at it.

On one particular time, when someone shot this dolphin, there was a law that came up that said you're specifically not allowed to shoot this particular dolphin in New Zealand.

And it was the first sea creature to be protected by law anywhere in the world.

I mean, between this and the 1863 Garottas Act, it does feel like legislators had a lot more time on their hands back in the day.

But so the story goes that the

boat, the ship that shot at Jack was called the SS Penguin.

And the story goes that he disappeared and he came back later.

But five years later, the SS Penguin struck rocks and sank and 75 passengers perished.

And

as the story goes, it's because Jack, when he saw the SS Penguin coming, would ignore it.

He knew that that was the boat that shot him.

And so maybe without his help, that's what led to it being slammed into the rocks.

It's a great story.

I love it.

Pellarus is a really weird name because I thought when you said that the French passed this strait of water was very perilous, I thought, oh, maybe it's a version of that.

I don't think it is.

It's a ship's instrument or something.

There was a ship called the HMS Perilus.

And there's a Pelaris, sorry.

And it kind of went around that area of New Zealand and Australia.

So there's a Pelaris Island as well and a few different things named after Pelarus, which was this

discovery ship.

Okay.

But Pelarus was also the name of Hannibal's pilot.

So that may be where it comes from.

Hannibal?

Hannibal Lecter?

Yeah, Hannibal Lecter needed a pilot to.

Well,

you've got to have a private pilot.

You're busy.

You're a busy man.

These livers aren't going to cook themselves.

Do you mean Hannibal as in the Hannibal as the elephant dude?

The elephant dude.

Carthaginian general.

Now sounds like we're talking about the elephant man, who is a different person from Hannibal.

Now, elephant dude would definitely be the name of Hannibal's YouTube channel, wouldn't it?

We're going to try and take some elephants and invade Rome next week.

It's going to be completely crazy.

Hit like and subscribe to see if it works.

But yeah, there was when I sent this fact round, Andy,

you found an article that said that perhaps it wasn't real and that the fact that the people thought the dolphin was guiding people was invented quite a few years later.

But I found an article from April 1905 where there was a guy called Mr.

Jenris Hayes

who said that

no, not

definitely not made up.

What date in April, James?

It was the 29th of April, but this story had come all the way from Australia, so it could definitely take 28 days to get to the Central Somerset Gazette, which is where I read it.

But he said that

Jack acts as a most effective pilot, escorting all kinds of vessels in and out of the French pass.

Yeah, and he was sort of globally famous.

There's stories of Mark Twain specifically going on that route to see him.

Yeah, and

an English author called Frank T.

Bullen as well.

both had written about it.

So, yeah, I think the contentious thing is, was he piloting them or was he just having fun um

but there's photos and so on i must say every time i read that i read that in a few places and it always said well-known figures such as mark twain and english author frank t bullard and i always thought one of those i have heard of for sure

i saw uh when i saw new zealand i obviously got in touch with my friend who's uh

an ex-pat kiwi amy and i messaged her and and i said have you heard of pellaris jack and she went oh my god i love him he's a celebrity dolphin in New Zealand.

And I was like, a celebrity dolphin.

And there's more than one celebrity dolphin in New Zealand.

It's a thing.

And they all have statues.

So there's

Oppo,

who was famous in New Zealand during the summer of 1955 to 56 because he played with children

and very soon after had become stranded and died.

So

his full name was Oponi Jack.

Yeah, Oponone Jack named after

Pelarus Jack himself, because he's the archetype of celebrity dolphins in New Zealand, obviously.

Yeah.

And then Moko came around in

2006 to do a similar kind of thing.

But, you know, neither of them was that useful.

They weren't guiding.

They were just kind of inter-human.

So he came.

Oh, no.

Mocco was Mocco was a guide on one famous occasion because,

again, another Kiwi dolphin.

In 2008, there were two pygmy sperm whales who were trapped.

I think they were trapped between the beach and a sandbank that had built up.

They didn't know what to do.

And the authorities were saying, Oh, well, should we kill them?

Because otherwise, they're going to really suffer and they might die.

And Moko the dolphin

led them out through a narrow channel at the end of the sandbank that they were in.

So there was a bit of water that was just deep enough to get these whales through.

So obviously, it became a huge celebrity.

And then it all went to his head and he started

sexually.

well he started sexually assaulting swimmers and i know it it is you know celebrity excess he started making what was called amorous advances to women in the water and also just being a bit of a thug he started tipping over water skis and i can't believe this but apparently stealing surfers surfboards Now, I don't know what I can't envisage how a dolphin does that.

Why do you need to?

You're already quite proficient in the water.

I mean, for a dolphin, a surfboard might be like a hoverboard for a human like he might if can you imagine if you're a dolphin and one of your mates comes along and he's just kind of lying on a surfboard that guy true is chilling okay so james is trying to justify mocco's crime wave

you mocco apologist

But he still has a statue, though.

They are

statues, yeah.

Wow.

Got to commemorate your local celebrity dolphin.

That didn't get pulled down in the whole recent.

It might be re-evaluated.

Do you know who also seems to be into New Zealand dolphins?

It's the Scottish.

So

it's just a very curious thing, but

Perilus Jack was turned into a song and a dance in Scotland.

And so there's...

There's a song that goes, and I don't know the music to it, but a famous fish there used to be called Pelaris Jack.

He'd always swim far out to sea when a ship came back.

And this got turned into a dance, which you could do.

And there's a move called The Dolphin Hay, which I guess is a bit like the pop goes the weasel.

It's sort of like a

dolphin move.

So that was turned into a dance.

And there's a full dance routine about Pelaris Jack.

But also, Oppo, who we were talking about in 1994, was also turned into a Scottish dance as well.

Yeah.

So you can, if you go to Scotland, likely there are people who know two New Zealand dolphin dancers.

Well, I've, Dan, I've got some ins with the Scottish country dancing community.

Oh, yeah.

And I can confirm there's no shortage of things they've named dancers after.

There are so many hundreds of dancers

that I.

Are they just going through Wikipedia on random pages and going, okay, well, I'm going to do this after George Washington High School in Milwaukee?

It is amazing the number of things they have dancers named after.

I think it must be an extension of the nursery rhyme thing.

So Scottish country dancing has taken up the mantle.

Have you ever done any Scottish country dancing?

Not me.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I've done a bit.

Yeah, it's great.

It's really, really fun.

Do you know the dolphin hay?

I don't know the dolphin hay.

No.

I'm not off the top of your head.

Thousands of dancers done.

It's not entry-level anyway.

No, absolutely not.

Dashing White Sergeant is the first thing you learn.

I think you have to be pretty...

you have to be balls deep before you're learning dolphin hay off by heart did you um did you do country dancing at school?

No, I didn't.

Jenny, did you?

I remember a couple of sessions of it when

they didn't have a PE teacher.

Exactly.

Emergency country dance.

It was raining and so a teacher who happened to know some country dancing.

Oh, okay.

So you didn't have a dance instructor who'd been kept in a cupboard for years and years of years until the PE teacher fell ill.

Because when I was at primary school, so Jenny and I went to the same secondary school, but when I was at primary school, we did country dancing every week.

Was it English country dancing you were doing?

It's like Morris dancing, I guess.

It's like all I remember is that you had to dote-dough your partner.

That's yeah, that's all I remember.

Yeah, all I remember is Dotsi-Dough.

There is one dance that's an English country dance, and that's English country dancing is a bit rarer for whatever reason.

There are still loads of dances, but they just don't get danced as much because they're all from Jane Austen's time.

But there's one which is called Mr.

Beveridge's Maggot.

It's my favorite name of a dance.

Wonderful.

That's absolutely fun.

And what happens at the end of that?

I don't know.

I don't know if this was named after an actual maggot that was like a celebrity maggot in Region C Agent,

which saved a carriage from crashing or whatever.

I don't know where to go from there.

Dolphins?

Let's talk about dolphins.

Yeah, yes.

One thing that dolphins do, which I didn't know, is that they can wear gloves over their noses.

Okay.

This is amazing.

Andy,

is this a real glove over a nose or is this an analogy for a glove over a nose?

Because Sarah Pasco called us out last week, if you remember,

about this ladybird bought a hat.

And

it's never an actual hat.

Oh, my God.

I've fallen right into the Pasco ladybird hat trap.

No, it's not a glove.

It's not a glove.

Obviously, it's not a glove.

What is it?

So, you know, marine sponges?

Yep.

They're animals, technically, aren't they?

The sponges.

They're very simple animals.

They kind of pick up these sponges and they press them onto the end of their snouts.

And then when they're foraging, they're using their snout and they are probing for prey, sometimes under the surface of the sea.

But there can be sharp things there.

And so these sponges on their noses act as a kind of

bit of protective equipment, if you like,

to stop them hurting themselves when they're jamming around there.

And they particularly pick conical sponges because they can jam them more easily onto the end of their noses.

Isn't that nice?

Cool.

Yeah.

I think glove is acceptable for that because that's basically their hand.

And they're putting something over the hand so they can go riffling about in things.

So, yeah.

I'll accept it.

I'm not going to pascal you on this.

Yeah.

I don't know if James hadn't called Andy out just then, I would be at parties going, you know, they wear marigolds on their face.

Dolphins can talk to each other on the telephone.

Jesus Christ.

Okay.

I think we all want to pasco you on this one.

Well, there was an aquarium in Hawaii where they had the mother in a separate tank to a two-year-old calf dolphin.

And they organized an audio link between the two tanks and got them chatting to each other.

And the calls and responses were in line with the kind of calls and responses you would hear in the wild, even though they couldn't see each other.

And they don't know what they said.

We've spoken about there's a dolphin dictionary that they're working on at the moment, scientists, but we do know that they were call and responses that were happening.

And it's sort of, they think the conversation was like, hey, what's your name?

Oh, my name's this.

Oh, great.

There's lots of fish here.

Oh, that's good to know.

Yeah.

So

they can chat over the phone.

Okay, actually.

Again, sounded unreasonable, but I think that's completely legit.

They can chat over the phone.

They just, they can't dial and they can't, you know.

They'd have to take the glove off to dial, obviously.

So also dolphins can attack enemies of the Soviet Union

because that's a thing, isn't it?

Dolphins,

they are trained in various armies.

The Americans have done it and the Soviets did it.

The first use of dolphins by the Navy was in 1970 in Vietnam, where they were put on guard duty for the Americans.

Was that river dolphins, or was it

seagoing dolphins?

That's a really good point.

I don't know about that.

It's actually the least relevant part of the most amazing fact I've ever heard, obviously.

I mean, dolphins fought in Nam is a more interesting fact than whether they were river or ocean dolphins.

But you do get river dolphins in Vietnam, or you used to.

I suspect there'd be river dolphins there because it was, you know, it's the Mekong Delta and all that.

So I'm guessing they would be guarding certain entry and exit points.

The thing is, is Andy you always ask the questions that the people at home are all thinking

and the Soviet Union they used their dolphin guards they would carry a titanium clamp on their nose which was about the size of a ping pong bowl

and you would they would attach it to a diver that they found and they

the little kind of thing would report back and tell you where that person is so you'd be able to find them.

and if they couldn't find them, eventually the ping-pong ball thing would inject a high-pressure charge of CO2 into the diver's body.

Oh, which could kill them.

So, this is an enemy diver, as it were, like a US diver or whatever.

That's the idea, yeah, to tag them as a god.

And again, I don't know exactly what species of dolphin that was

sucks.

The new musical has made Tony award-winning history on Broadway.

We demand to be home, Winner, best score.

We demand to be seen.

Winner best book.

It's a theatrical masterpiece that's thrilling, inspiring, dazzlingly entertaining, and unquestionably the most emotionally stirring musical this season.

Suffs!

Playing the Orpheum Theater October 22nd through November 9th.

Tickets at BroadwaySF.com.

Time for a sofa upgrade?

Visit washable sofas.com and discover Anibay, where designer style meets budget-friendly prices, with sofas starting at $699.

Anibay brings you the ultimate in furniture innovation with a modular design that allows you to rearrange your space effortlessly.

Perfect for both small and large spaces, Anibay is the only machine-washable sofa inside and out.

Say goodbye to stains and messes with liquid and stain-resistant fabrics that make cleaning easy.

Liquid simply slides right off.

Designed for custom comfort, our high-resilience foam lets you choose between a sink-in feel or a supportive memory foam blend.

Plus, our pet-friendly, stain-resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years.

Don't compromise quality for price.

Visit washablefas.com to upgrade your living space today with no-risk returns and a 30-day money-back guarantee.

Get up to 60% off plus free shipping and free returns.

Shop now at washablesofas.com.

Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Okay, it's time for our final fact of the show.

That is my fact.

My fact this week is that the Arthur Conan Doyle estate is currently suing Netflix for showing Sherlock Holmes as having feelings and respecting women.

So

this is...

This is really interesting.

So Netflix is making a movie called Enola Holmes, and it is the story of the teenage sister of Sherlock Holmes.

And Sherlock Holmes appears as a character in it.

And in the show, they show him as having sort of not sociopath qualities that we know Sherlock to have, but to be warmer and gentler.

And the Conan Doyle state is claiming they are unable to represent him like that because, yes, even though Sherlock does have those feelings, he did eventually sort of respect women and become a nicer character.

He only became that in the last 10 stories that were written by Conan Doyle.

And it just so happens that those 10 stories are the only stories that are still in copyright and belong to the Conan Doyle estate.

So, anyone who wants to use the out-of-copyright has to use the more mean, misogynistic homes, and they're fine.

But if you want to show him being a nice guy, you're going to be sued.

Wow.

There's a few other things that you're not allowed to,

or if you do show Sherlock having these characteristics, then you have to pay them, pay the family.

So, if you show Holmes and Watson having a genuine friendship, that's in copyright.

If you show his love of nature, that is, and if you ever ever show him liking dogs, that's in copyright.

So if you ever make it, I'm just going to say this to everyone out there.

If you're making your own version of Sherlock Holmes, make sure that he doesn't like dogs whenever you do.

Yeah.

I guess the hand of the Baskervilles is out of copyright, in which he doesn't like dogs.

No, no, that's quite right.

And the thing is, if you are going to make something where he does like dogs and respects women, all you need to do actually is wait two or three more years because that is, we're in the final years of them owning this copyright.

I think that's why they're trying to rake in as much money as possible because they're about to lose it entirely.

But these stories obviously have, you know, he wrote them over a lifetime.

So there's a bit of spread on when the copyright ends.

And the final batch, these final 10, were written after he returned from World War I.

And he lost his brother in the war, he lost his eldest son, and he came back and he was a different man.

And he thought, I want to reflect that in Sherlock.

And so that's why there was this sudden change in the attitude of Sherlock.

Yeah.

interesting.

Yeah, I got deep into the legalese of all this because, you know,

that's my background.

So there's actually an infight between the Conan Doyle Estate Limited and Arthur Conan Doyle's Literary Estates, both of whom claim to have the copyright.

of those stories.

And it's actually the Conan Doyle Estate Limited is the litigious

one of those two.

And so

they are described by the literary estate as copyright trolls, which is a whole new term.

So

tracing it back, the way that the story is told by the literary estate is that all the rights were sold after Conan Doyle's death because

the three inheriting children, so it's two daughters and the widow of his son,

had

they couldn't agree on anything.

So they all sold to the widow.

And from then on, she, you know, she went bankrupt and the rights were acquired by someone else, who was acquired by someone else.

And so that they traced that route back in 2000-ish,

when EU copyright law started to indicate that there wasn't much money left to be squeezed out in Europe of the literary copyright.

That's when Conan Doyle Estate Limited, which is some descendants of Conan Doyle himself, decided to put the squeeze on

some of the studios who are interested in his work.

So they basically went and threatened Warner Brothers when they made the Robert Downey Jr.

versions.

And

because, you know, in those films, you know, he's got a romance with Irene Adler.

There's all that sort of stuff that would come under these sort of stipulations.

And

the...

I think it would be fair to threaten those filmmakers, actually, of the Robert Downey Jr.

Sherlock Holmes that became a movie.

No,

the people you want to threaten are the people who made Holmes and Watson.

What?

Oh, sorry.

This is Dan's favourite film, The Will Sarah by Sherlock Holmes.

So good.

Yeah, but

nowhere in Holmes is he bloody hilarious.

No, I'm pretty sure he is.

There you go.

So that's actually more of a divergence from the original text.

And I'm guessing that that studio paid them off.

Do you know the, obviously, the very famous quote, Elementary, My Dear Watson?

It never said in any of the written work of Conan Doyle's.

So it's a line that came much later.

But there's someone who runs a site called Quote Investigator who's written a fantastic article about trying to find the very first instances where we use Elementary My Dear Watson.

And the oldest that he could find was 1901, the Northampton Mercury.

They published a short parody featuring the characters Shylock Combs and Potson.

And it is in that that the line, elementary, my dear Potson, is said.

Wow.

Then in 1902, there was a piece that was written about Dr.

Joseph Bell.

Now, Dr.

Joseph Bell is someone who it is claimed was the inspiration for Sherlock Holmes.

He was a doctor who could walk around and look at you on site and pick out what was wrong with you by just simply staring at you, which is a thing that Sherlock is famous for doing.

And in this article, the person writing it says, as the remarkable man would say, it is the merest elementary knowledge, my dear Watson.

So that's the second closest

that we get to it.

Yeah.

But yeah, no one can find it in the actual canon itself of official Sherlock writings.

I think if it was there, people would have found it right.

Because people do take these books very seriously.

You're right.

You get them.

They're all digital now.

There's a search term.

I've got just a recommendation of an extraordinary real-life story to do with Sherlock and Conan Doyle that is worth reading.

So it's written by a guy called David Gran.

And the story, it was published in the New Yorker and it was called Mysterious Circumstances.

So basically, one of the leading Sherlock Holmes experts in the world living in Britain was found dead in his room, in his house, with no break-in.

No one could work out how anyone got out.

because but there was just one body in there so this turned in itself into a sherlock Holmes style mystery.

How did the leading expert of Sherlock Holmes die?

It was a guy called Richard Lancelan Green.

He was the son of Roger Lancelin Green, who wrote the King Arthur Fables in their modern version, the most famous version that we would all know.

And

yeah, so it's extraordinary.

He was found death by Garotting, by the way.

Oh, hello.

What year was that?

Did he say the year then?

No, well, he wrote about it in 2004, and it wasn't much long before that that this story happened.

Did he have one of those those guns that shoots people in the crotch?

Because I'm just kind of trying to channel my Sherlock Holmes here.

Yeah, it could.

I mean, I know the answer to the story, but it's not that.

But that doctor, what was he called?

Dr.

Bell.

Bell.

Yeah, he could tell just by looking at you if you'd been shot in the crotch.

This man is a Garota.

He's a nasty man.

Sorry, Dan.

Carry on.

No, no, I think that's all that I'd like to give in in terms of details.

It's an extraordinary mystery.

Sherlock expert found Garotted.

Yeah, in a locked room mystery, and he's the only person in the room.

No one knows who killed him.

There was a big paranoia on his part in the lead up to his death about people wanting to kill him that he told everyone about.

It's a big mystery and the story does resolve.

So I highly recommend reading it.

Mysterious.

Oh, you're not going to tell us.

No, no, it's honestly, that's what I was saying.

This is just a, you need to read it.

It would be, it would be horrible to ruin the brilliance of this writing.

No no spider yes

so how have you told people how to get hold of this how to find it yeah the new yorker mysterious circumstances it's called by david grand or in the book the devil versus sherlock holmes but once we stop recording you'll just tell us what happened right because yes okay absolutely it was a self he put his cravat on the wrong way around didn't he

so easy

Okay, that's it.

That is all of our facts.

Thank you so much for listening.

If If you'd like to get in contact with any of us about the things that we have said over the course of this podcast, we can be found on our Twitter accounts.

I'm on at Schreiberland.

Andy?

At Andrew Hunter M.

James?

At James Harkin.

And Jenny?

At GenLion.

Yep.

Or you can go to our group account at no such thing or our website, no such thingasofish.com.

We have everything up there from our previous episodes to bits of merchandise that we released.

Also, do make sure to check out Fingers on Buzzzers.

It's Jenny's brilliant podcast.

James, you were on it not too long ago, I believe.

Anna and I were on it, yeah, talking about quizzes.

Great guests.

Yeah, very cool.

Great guests.

Yeah, I mean, you know, there's two others that would have been really good, but you know, that's cool.

If you want to check it out, it's available in all the places you get your podcasts.

So do listen to that and listen to us again next week when we will be back with another episode.

We'll see you then.

Goodbye.

Sucks.

The new new musical has made Tony award-winning history on Broadway.

We demand to be home!

Winner, best score, we demand to be seen, winner, best book.

We demand to be quality!

It's a theatrical masterpiece that's thrilling, inspiring, dazzlingly entertaining, and unquestionably the most emotionally stirring musical this season.

Suffs, playing the Orpheum Theater, October 22nd through November 9th.

Tickets at BroadwaySF.com.

Let's be real.

Life happens.

Kids spill.

Pets shed.

And accidents are inevitable.

Find a sofa that can keep up at washable sofas.com.

Starting at just $699, our sofas are fully machine washable inside and out.

So you can say goodbye to stains and hello to worry-free living.

Made with liquid and stain-resistant fabrics.

They're kid-proof, pet-friendly, and built for everyday life.

Plus, changeable fabric covers let you refresh your sofa whenever you want.

Neat flexibility?

Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa anytime to fit your space, whether it's a growing family room or a cozy apartment.

Plus, they're earth-friendly and trusted by over 200,000 happy customers.

It's time to upgrade to a stress-free, mess-proof sofa.

Visit washable sofas.com today and save.

That's washable sofas.com.

Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.