Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein

Speaker 1 True Story Media.

Speaker 1 Hello, it's Andrea, and I am so excited to share today's conversation with Rachel Bernstein, host of the Indoctrination Podcast.

Speaker 1 Rachel is a therapist who specializes in cults and cult-adjacent behaviors, and today we are digging into coercive control, manipulation, and tackling the question of why people go on believing things, even when they've been presented with mountains of evidence to the contrary, which is a question that feels pretty timely right about now.

Speaker 1 Our sixth season is coming in June, and we've got lots of great stuff for you in the meantime, including our deep dive into the medical kidnapping lawsuit against Ratty Children's in San Diego, a look at the Bell Gibson case, which was featured in the new Netflix show Apple Cider Vinegar, and some other fascinating tidbits.

Speaker 1 If you are a subscriber on Apple or Patreon, we're talking about the peacock documentary, The Anatomy of Lies, which is about the Elizabeth Finch case this month, as well as bringing you some updates on the ongoing Kowalski saga in Florida.

Speaker 1 And just as a reminder, as a subscriber, once again, you'll get all eight episodes of season six on the day they launch in June. So without further ado, here is my conversation with Rachel Bernstein.

Speaker 1 Many of you know that I was an author before I was a podcaster, and those worlds collide with my new audiobook, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, which I co-authored with Detective Mike Weber, and which I narrate.

Speaker 1 If you want to dive into these three fascinating cases, you can listen wherever you get your audiobooks. Here's a sample.

Speaker 1 You busy? Alana said, leaning against the doorway of Mike's office. We got another Munchausen by Proxy case.
This one is ours. You interested?

Speaker 1 Of course, Mike told her, somewhat taken aback. Wasn't this abuse vanishingly rare?

Speaker 1 Alana deposited the voluminous CPS report about Hope Yabara on his desk. Mike had worked dozens of child abuse cases by this point in his life.
He'd seen children subjected to unimaginable horror.

Speaker 1 He thought he had seen the absolute worst of humanity already, but nothing could have prepared him for what he was about to discover about Hope.

Speaker 1 Hey, it's Andrea. It's come to my attention that some of you have been served programmatic ads for ICE on my show.

Speaker 1 Now, podcasters don't get a lot of control over which individual ads play and for whom on our shows, but please know that we are trying everything we can to get rid of these by tightening our filters.

Speaker 1 And if you do continue to hear them, please do let us know. In the meantime, I want it to be known that I do not support ICE.
I am the daughter of an immigrant. I stand with immigrants.

Speaker 1 Immigrants make this country great.

Speaker 1 Welcome, Rachel Bernstein. Thank you so much for being here with us today.

Speaker 2 Oh, it is my pleasure. This is such an important discussion.
It taps into so many different issues. And it was a pleasure to speak with you before.

Speaker 2 And I was really looking forward to what I think is going to feel like a continuation of our conversation today.

Speaker 1 Yes, absolutely. So we met when I was on your wonderful podcast, which I highly recommend.
I think listeners of nobody should believe me would love this show, Indoctrination.

Speaker 1 So you are a therapist and you have

Speaker 1 an area of expertise and a specialization around cults and working with family members who are impacted by this, cult survivors,

Speaker 1 and other folks that just really have maybe cult-e personalities in their families, folks with narcissistic personality disorder or narcissistic traits.

Speaker 1 And so there is so much crossover with what we talk about on this show in terms of family dynamics, in terms of gaslighting, just so many things. And I remember that when I first read

Speaker 1 about the cult connection in the Munchausen by Proxy literature that's been written by some of my academic colleagues, it was like.

Speaker 1 all the lights went on in my brain because I think it is so helpful to have language for things, right? And to have sort of those dots to connect.

Speaker 1 So can you tell us just a little bit about your work and what you do? And then we can dive into how this all ties together.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's interesting because

Speaker 2 when I was growing up, I have a sibling who got involved in a cult.

Speaker 2 So it was sort of dinner table conversation about, you know, that this can happen to someone and they can get kind of plucked out of their own life and out of their own sense of reality and not know what's real and have a whole misdirection about whom to trust and whom not to.

Speaker 2 And that it can be so compelling and so immediate, and that you can see this personality shift. And I thought, what is that? I mean, are there people out in corners like trying to hypnotize people?

Speaker 2 Because you don't see that. So, where are these people, and how do they get their talents in?

Speaker 2 And why is it that it's so effective?

Speaker 2 I realized as I was graduating with my teaching credentials, which I loved doing, and I again still do,

Speaker 2 I really wanted to do this work. We couldn't find resources at the time for therapists, counselors, social workers, anyone who kind of really knew about this.

Speaker 2 This is in the 70s, 80s. And I

Speaker 2 thought, well, why don't I do this too? So I went on for a master's and

Speaker 2 And then just really found it fascinating. In fact,

Speaker 2 the professor who taught the group therapy course in my master's program actually ran it like a cult, which was very interesting. And I think she didn't do that on purpose to teach a lesson.

Speaker 2 I just noticed and I went to the dean to say the following things are happening. And the dean was actually pretty alarmed.

Speaker 2 And it helped me realize, too, that this can happen in so many different places and kind of under people's noses and

Speaker 2 under the guise of like teaching and

Speaker 2 with the trappings of it being something professional, and with a teacher who's teaching at a therapy at USC in a master's program and should be able to be trusted. And so

Speaker 2 just because someone's wearing a lab coat doesn't mean you can trust them. So just because someone's sitting in the therapist chair doesn't mean you can trust them.
Just

Speaker 2 even though someone has taken on the role of parent, doesn't mean you can trust them. And so how do you discern? So that sort of became my thing.

Speaker 2 And that's why I decided after 30, some odd years of doing this, I was listening to so many people's stories in my office and then on Zoom.

Speaker 2 And I thought, you know, I want other people to hear this because these are kind of cautionary tales. And hearing how people also broke free,

Speaker 2 just how do you champion your own rights when it's hard to figure out who to lean on. To like, where does that power come from inside of yourself? And also, who is out there who can help? And

Speaker 2 so, understanding kind of

Speaker 2 what is true about our natures as human beings,

Speaker 2 like you and I can say, we know a lot about manipulation and control and coercion, but we have this internal locus of control that would stop us from using it against someone.

Speaker 2 Instead, we use it to teach and to prevent, which is a very different trajectory. And other people would say, Oh, look, I have this knowledge.
I have this skill.

Speaker 2 Let me use it for my own gain, which is a very different kind of personality and very scary.

Speaker 1 Can you say, um, can you say more about that, uh, your professor in your master's program? Because I think that's really interesting.

Speaker 1 And I think it's an example of like, you know, we tend to think of cults as like the Netflix document, you know, like compound and it's a religious cult and it's like this very sort of like Hollywood depiction of it.

Speaker 1 Right. And I think it exists and sort of cult-like dynamics exists in a lot of other places.
And so you tell us in what way that program started to feel like a cult to you.

Speaker 2 So It was a class instructing people who were studying to become therapists about ways to run support groups.

Speaker 2 You walk into a room, the professor is there, and there is a circle of chairs as though it's a support group. And

Speaker 2 we all sat down and we were told to share about ourselves. So people started sharing and it was fascinating.
In the first class, there was already a hierarchy. There was already the more liked group.

Speaker 2 the people who had shared more, the people who had more tragedy, the people who had more trauma, the people who revealed more about themselves, they were more liked.

Speaker 2 And that came through with smiles. And the teacher actually got up and hugged a few people after they shared.
And two of the people, she said she couldn't hear them speaking all that clearly.

Speaker 2 Could they move closer? So they got a seat next to her.

Speaker 2 And then you could see the next class, people who needed that, who needed to be like at the cool kids' table, or who just needed that affirmation, or needed her to be this parent, because she was older than other people in the room by and large.

Speaker 2 She started taking people out for coffee, but only the people who had shared, only the people who had something that really was

Speaker 2 a trauma of some sort.

Speaker 2 And there were people who were, I could see their eyes trailing off as they were telling a story, and then their eyes would come back into into the room and they would look to see if she was engaged in what they were saying.

Speaker 2 And if she seemed to not be so engaged, they would kind of turn up the volume on their story.

Speaker 2 And so there were people who would tell a story and then say, I really, you know what, I want to add more to my story. And when people say that, it could be that now they feel comfortable.

Speaker 2 It could be that they realize it wasn't compelling enough to get them a front row seat.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 there was so much happening in that space. And I remember remember talking to a friend of the family, a friend of my mom's actually who was a psychologist for many years.
I was telling her about this.

Speaker 2 And I said, you know, there's also this language of

Speaker 2 withholding and resistance. So if you don't share, you're withholding and you're not being kind to the other people in the room who have shared.
So there was this guilt.

Speaker 2 and a sense of responsibility you then had to other people to share because after all they did. So why do you feel like you can hide out and be selfish with your information?

Speaker 2 And then also

Speaker 2 why are you being so resistant? What is it about your past that makes you so resistant to sharing? So the psychologist who I love, who is a professor, she said, why don't you do a social experiment?

Speaker 2 This woman's not your therapist. These are not your friends.
This is a class. Make up a story.

Speaker 2 So I just went and the next time there was a class, I just made up a story, which was very uncomfortable for me because I'm a straight shooter.

Speaker 2 And I thought, but it's worth it for this experiment, because I was already planning to talk to the dean. I thought,

Speaker 2 let me have my material that I need to use to bring to him. So I just said, you know, that time that I talked about having that illness when I was young and I almost died.
And you know what?

Speaker 2 It made me fearful for the rest of my life.

Speaker 2 And it is true, I was very sensitive. I had Stevens-Johnson syndrome when I was a year and a half.
And it can be fatal if it's not treated.

Speaker 2 And it leaves you, it left me with very sensitive skin and different physical issues, but I got past it. And I just said, I have never gotten past it.

Speaker 2 The amount of attention paid to me suddenly, people got up, I was surrounded,

Speaker 2 they hugged me. The teacher invited me to join for coffee later.
I was seated closer to her. If I needed that,

Speaker 2 I would have have been in and I would have thought, this is how I get what I need. And here I go, right? It was so dangerous.

Speaker 1 I mean, Rachel, I'm sure you can probably guess where my mind is going hearing this story that you've just completely pinpointed the

Speaker 1 reward that perpetrators of this abuse and folks that engage in munchausen behaviors where they're doing it to themselves, like that is what you get, right? Like that is the emotional reward.

Speaker 1 And it is very real, right?

Speaker 1 I mean, I think like that sort of sense of being taken care of and if you, if you were, you know, because we always talk about how these behaviors are maladaptive coping mechanisms, right?

Speaker 1 And so like you can see how if someone who was wired that way had a little bit of that experience, that that might, and then was also a person that, you know, had these other sort of constellation of things that makes them engage in deception, how how that could just get like ratcheted, ratcheted, ratcheted up.

Speaker 1 And I always, I always do, you know, try to bring this down to earth for people because I think, especially at the extremes, you know, in the cases that we talk about where someone's harming a child, it seems such like such baffling behavior.

Speaker 1 But I actually think that there is a pretty like basic human thing at the core of it, which is that, you know, people, people do need love and care and belonging. And having a crisis is one way.

Speaker 1 It's not a good way, especially if you're manufacturing the crisis, but like having a crisis is one way to get that, right?

Speaker 2 Right, absolutely right. And it's interesting because even with Munchausen by proxy, I could see, hmm.

Speaker 2 I could see feeling sorry for the person who engages in this, but it feels to me, and I don't want to say this in such a harsh way, but it gets to like all bets are off when a child is harmed, when a child gets in the way of this and is then inextricably tied.

Speaker 2 If someone were just out there needing a lot of attention, needing a lot because they felt very empty, I would offer help. I would feel compassion.

Speaker 2 You know, a lot of these things that we hear about when people have their own issues or their own trauma history, you know, it is

Speaker 2 an explanation, but it's not an excuse. And so that kind of distinction for me is where it shifts emotionally for me.
You know, it's hard. It's hard to have compassion after a while.

Speaker 1 Yeah, absolutely. And I think however far your personal sense of compassion and empathy can extend to people who do horrible things, that that's okay, right?

Speaker 1 Like it's okay to feel like they're a human being.

Speaker 1 We don't need to, you know, like it's if you don't feel any compassion or empathy for a person who does that, if that's the extent that you can, then that's also fine, also very understandable.

Speaker 1 But none of that compassion or empathy that you may feel for a perpetrator should ever interfere with protecting the child. And like that is the important thing.

Speaker 1 And we cannot let those things be commingled. This is not, yeah, it's like, this is not an excuse.
It's not a reason. It's not.

Speaker 1 by, you know, by all intents and purposes, it's not a thing that can be treated or remedied. So, because it's so, such a compulsive behavior, right?

Speaker 1 So yeah, I mean, I think it's a, it's a fascinating question, but yeah, I think we do have to like, I think it is really important to draw lines in society and that there are certain things where if you do that to a child or if you do that to another person, you know, especially with children, like, okay, well, then you are not a safe adult.

Speaker 1 You should never be around children again, unsupervised, like ever. You know, you just like, I, I would like to see us seeing this in the same way that we do with,

Speaker 1 you know, with people who are sex offenders, right? Where it's like, okay, you can't go near a school anymore.

Speaker 1 You can't go in, in, you know, you can't, you can't be with your own children or any children unsupervised.

Speaker 1 And I just think we're very, unfortunately, we're very far away from drawing that line as a society with these particular perpetrators.

Speaker 1 And I honestly think that part of the, that the cultiness is part of it, right? I think they really are like this cult connection resonated so much for me when I first read it because

Speaker 1 not just looking for language to describe my sister Megan, but language to describe the people who had continued to support her

Speaker 1 despite so much evidence that this abuse was taking place and over a period of, and so much evidence of deception, right?

Speaker 1 But yeah, I think I was really looking for like an explanation for, okay, I have watched her husband and, you know, her, like his family just watched this whole thing unfold over a period of years.

Speaker 1 And she's been investigated twice by like different, you know, there were reports that came from different hospitals. There's been four hospitals that have reported her.

Speaker 1 There was a child that died in between her two children. And you just think, like, okay, how could you just watch this

Speaker 1 and still think there is nothing wrong? And, you know, in the police, second, in the police investigation that happened with her second child,

Speaker 1 you know, her, there was, in the police report, her father-in-law saying to the police, this is a witch hunt just like last time. And I'm like, that is very like conspiracy language, right?

Speaker 1 And so can you help us understand

Speaker 1 what is going on with the long-term supporters? And I think there's like two kind of groups that I want to talk about separately.

Speaker 1 Like one is like the family members or people that are close to that person because of personal connections.

Speaker 1 And then I think there's like a whole other separate thing that goes on with the doctors who buy in.

Speaker 1 But yeah, for like the family members, like how can we understand what seems so baffling from the outside when you're sort of looking at the evidence this person's been presented with?

Speaker 2 So I think about the people who

Speaker 2 have cult leaders, let's say,

Speaker 2 malignant narcissistic partners, people who engaged in abuse

Speaker 2 of a variety of sorts, who, let's say, are in jail, and then they still have the people outside

Speaker 2 the jail, outside the courthouse, chanting, showing their allegiance, setting up websites in support,

Speaker 2 raising money for their appeals. There is a part of people, I think, that wants to not see.

Speaker 2 And when you decide that you don't want to see something, you can be very good. at keeping blinders on and it's an important thing to look at why some people do that.

Speaker 2 I see it as for some people it would shake their foundation so much that they resist wanting to see. Other people are going to be worried about what it's going to make them aware of.

Speaker 2 Like once you start to see, then will it have a domino effect that will be so devastating? Like all the times that you let that person be with your child and you didn't intervene.

Speaker 2 Now do you have to look at all of those times and all of the symptoms your child might have started to have and all the times you didn't jump in to protect them?

Speaker 2 And all the times maybe you had a sense or an inkling and your conscience was telling you something and you ignored it. That's also very hard to look at.

Speaker 2 So I think a lot of people are kind of protecting the perpetrator because they're protecting themselves. And then

Speaker 2 you have the people, I think,

Speaker 2 who are concerned and rightfully so that the system is going to be against women and against mothers,

Speaker 2 because it's by and large women who are engaging in this, and not all, but most. And then,

Speaker 2 yes, women are not believed. Women are not believed when they bring a story of rape to the courts.

Speaker 2 They're not believed when they go to the doctor about having certain symptoms and things are overlooked, and they're told they're hysterical.

Speaker 2 And so, I think there are people who get tangled in this in a way that gets messy because they're there championing the rights of women.

Speaker 2 And then there are other people who just have a mistrust of the legal system, have a mistrust of the medical system who are also involved in this.

Speaker 2 But I do think the people who are close, like a father-in-law, I think he might feel like he's being a really good person.

Speaker 2 And he might feel like he is able to be the superhero here here when everyone else is against someone and he just hasn't seen it or he doesn't want to see it.

Speaker 2 So it's kind of, for a lot of reasons, it winds up being something that at the end of the day leaves the child totally unprotected.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I mean, that really resonates with me because I'm just, as we're talking about this, like thinking back to, you know, the last time that I saw any of these people face to face, which was this meeting that we had with the social worker organized this family meeting and it was just complete debacle because the my sister brought with her like her husband, her in-laws, three of her husband's aunts, their friends, their friends.

Speaker 1 It was just like this entire entourage. And it was just me and my mom.
And

Speaker 1 I just remember like we were trying to like, and this is so early. I mean, this is 14 years ago.
This is when, you know, this was the first investigation.

Speaker 1 And I just remember like looking at my brother-in-law's mother, Ruth, and just looking at her and being like, come on, Ruth. like, come on.

Speaker 1 Like, just, she was the only one whose face just sort of seemed somewhat sympathetic when my mom and I were talking.

Speaker 1 Like, the rest of them were just like, oh, ugh, these evil people, you know, who are trying to, trying to separate their, you know, daughter from her child because reasons, because that benefits them somehow.

Speaker 1 And it's just like, you know, kind of this thing of like, we're just really pleading. Like, why would we be doing this?

Speaker 1 Like, why would we be telling you that like, we know her entire history and we're scared and we're worried about her and we're worried about her son.

Speaker 1 And just, I remember just thinking like, come on, like you, you have to know there's something wrong here. And,

Speaker 1 and then like subsequently, you know, after the investigation wrapped to like nothing, they like told my sister to get therapy.

Speaker 1 Um, and then her husband had discovered that some other deceptions and he kind of came back around briefly and was like asking, you know, my dad for help and all this stuff.

Speaker 1 And we're like, okay, okay, he's seen it with his own eyes. She can't blame us for this.
Like, okay, he's going to like see that there's a problem. And then he just like went right back underwater.

Speaker 1 And I really think back so much on that,

Speaker 1 those kind of two moments, because I think those were like the last off ramps.

Speaker 1 Like, I remember you're talking in an interview about this, this sunk cost fallacy that like the longer people are in it, the is that, I mean, is that true? Like, how does someone get out?

Speaker 1 Like, how do people not just get deeper and deeper and deeper in?

Speaker 2 So, right. So, yes, there is the sunk cost fallacy.
It's also, it gets ramped up when it's not just that you're like putting your money into multi-level marketing. These are the people you love.

Speaker 2 These are the people who you're trying to protect or that you might have to look at having not protected.

Speaker 2 So I do think that it is very hard for people to be open to seeing.

Speaker 2 Some people are able and they have more wherewithal, they have more personal strength, they have more ability emotionally to to take things on. You're one of those people.

Speaker 2 And not everyone is like that. And there are a lot of people who would much rather just go back into the dark and do the la la la la la, Mary had a little,

Speaker 2 because that's just where they need to live their life because they think that's the only way for them to survive. And

Speaker 2 it could be that they just don't have the emotional ability to have the courage or the strength to really look.

Speaker 2 What's also true, and this is actually why a lot of cults and even narcissistic partners

Speaker 2 will often have the person they're controlling speak on behalf of them and speak on behalf of the cult or do recruiting and kind of share the party line about how wonderful it is and how wonderful this person is.

Speaker 2 Because once you say something out loud, there is the part of our social psychology and human psychology that makes us feel like we have to back that up and we have to stick with the messaging because

Speaker 2 then who are we? Did we just lie about all of that? We have to save face. So that adds another layer, I think, of the worry of

Speaker 2 social shame. And so, what are the concerns that are keeping you not seeing and not wanting to see what you probably have already seen, even in little bits?

Speaker 2 And so, to get into that discussion, I think, is where you can actually make the most inroads, helping people talk about their fears.

Speaker 2 And also, that do they have to start their life all over again? Maybe they're worried about being single again. Maybe they're worried about losing their whole community.

Speaker 2 Maybe they're worried about losing their own parents because if the in-laws are in support, then, you know, will they lose their own parents? So, So

Speaker 2 what's the cost here for them? And what's the worry about that? And then I think once people

Speaker 2 get the courage to leave, when they feel their feelings are understood, when they feel supported in their abject panic over doing it or over really looking,

Speaker 2 then they can make those decisions in an, I think, a bit of an easier way to leave.

Speaker 2 But they need to know they're not leaving into an abyss, leaving everything and everyone behind, but they'll be supported. They'll have community.

Speaker 2 That actually helps quite a bit. But yeah, it takes a lot, takes a lot of courage to do what you're doing, even though it might not feel that way for you because it feels more natural for you.

Speaker 2 It would probably feel wrong of you to not do it.

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Speaker 1 That's encouraging that you say the piece about community and support because, you know, one of the things that we've done with Munch Housing Support, the nonprofit that I founded and now my wonderful colleague B.

Speaker 1 Yorker is the president of,

Speaker 1 is the support groups, right? For survivors, but also for family members. When this happened in my family, for my parents and I, like, it did feel very clear what we had to do.

Speaker 1 It just didn't, so I mean, do you think when people are sort of like having that like internal battle, do people just like compartmentalize that other fear?

Speaker 1 And it just seems like that would be so like psychically exhausting to do over a period of years.

Speaker 1 Like, does that take a huge toll on people when they're, when they're, are they like sort of hiding from themselves? I mean, that seems very stressful. Right.

Speaker 2 Yes,

Speaker 2 it is stressful for a lot of people. and they do sometimes reach their limit with it at some point.

Speaker 2 And you don't always know what it's going to be that's going to be their tipping point, but there's going to be something.

Speaker 2 And sometimes it's just a surprising thing and unexpected,

Speaker 2 but they might get there. It sometimes takes them a lot longer, and they need something that's even more disturbing to really kind of hit them over the head so they really get it.

Speaker 2 But I think it would be very uncomfortable for me to sit on my hands for a lot of things.

Speaker 2 And that's why I don't.

Speaker 2 And at the same time, I've even seen with myself, there are some, like there are some cases that I've chosen to not take on because it is,

Speaker 2 I don't know if I have the capacity because it's something that is going to be so disturbing to me. But I also will only say no to a case if I know there's someone else who I can hand it over to.

Speaker 2 Like, I need to do something. I need to at least offer a referral, a resource, so I know they're still, they're going to be in good hands, even if it's not mine.
We sometimes have

Speaker 2 our limit still to do self-protection. So, sometimes people are just more avoidant.
And so, they know how to jump in again and be the superhero.

Speaker 2 They know how to jump in in a positive way, like coming to someone's defense. But really looking, really acknowledging, really feeling is overwhelming for their system.

Speaker 2 And they're probably intuiting that about themselves or assuming that about themselves. A lot of people assume it to a greater degree than it's actually true.

Speaker 2 People will jump in.

Speaker 2 They'll say, actually, I realized

Speaker 2 that wasn't as hard as I thought. In fact, it felt a lot better once I was there, but people will assume it.
The other thing that happens, though, is that,

Speaker 2 you know, I've never met your sister, so I don't know how she operates, but there are people who will come across as the victim,

Speaker 2 but who give off signs of being

Speaker 2 terrifying and intimidating. And you can pick it up sometimes in a look.

Speaker 2 You can see, right, how much they work

Speaker 2 something.

Speaker 2 And you know

Speaker 2 that because you've seen it, you know that's going to be turned on you and then some.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 you then go into avoiding all of it because you can see what's going to happen if you kind of cross this person and you go into

Speaker 2 without even realizing it, you are already dealing with behavior modification

Speaker 2 just because you'll get the look

Speaker 2 or something.

Speaker 2 And I think people might not even be consciously aware that they're being behaviorally modified, but people who are aware of watching that happen can see it happening.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that really, that tracks for me. I, you know, and I think there's, there was a period of my life where I was doing that, right? Like, because there were many things that happened before,

Speaker 1 before this abuse situation started that were where I look back and I'm like, that's pretty weird that we just all moved on from that, you know, the biggest incidents, I think, being, you know, the faked pregnancy, right?

Speaker 1 That's a very disturbing thing to do.

Speaker 1 I don't know actually that when she was in my life, I really appreciated at all how scary she actually is.

Speaker 1 But maybe, as what you're saying, like, maybe I sort of like, there was a part of me that did know kind of this person is really capable of anything.

Speaker 1 And I think like that is the thing with when someone is, you know, especially on the extreme end of a perpetrator, like if you are capable of doing that to your child, what are you not capable of?

Speaker 1 I mean, there is no, like, that is a boundary that even like many people that would do many harmful, scary things to other people would never do it to their own children, right?

Speaker 1 So if that boundary doesn't exist, then like no boundary exists. And so I think they are, they are terrifying.

Speaker 1 And I think there's like, that's, that's a piece of what makes people not look at it, because I think like you have to sort of rearrange your entire worldview if you think that someone who presents as a nice, sympathetic, loving mom can be the most terrifying person you've ever met.

Speaker 1 Like that, that's an entire thing that I think people are just often maybe not willing to look at. And I wonder specifically something that has really

Speaker 1 come to the fore for me in some of the cases we've looked at, and especially this last one that we featured on the show, the Sophie Hartman case, is the role that doctors play in this abuse.

Speaker 1 And I think, you know, initially when I was, you know, when I was covering these cases, and certainly actually in my own,

Speaker 1 you know, in my own situation in the family, like the, I really thought the doctors at Children's that reported my sister, the doctor at Marybridge that intervened who I believe she saved my niece's life.

Speaker 1 Like I am very used to looking at doctors as either unwitting participants, right?

Speaker 1 Where, okay, it's not a doctor, because we get this, you know, question all the time, like, why don't they charge the doctors and who'd put the G-tube or whatever else?

Speaker 1 Well, if that doctor was doing that based on lies, well, that doctor's not culpable for that, right? And it's very traumatizing for the doctor to have been used in that way.

Speaker 1 But I think I've really become clued in to how susceptible some doctors are to this in a way that you would think like a doctor of all people should understand this abuse, right?

Speaker 1 Like they should have the framework for being able to understand this abuse.

Speaker 1 And what you see is like, you know, again, like, I I think one of the very culty things about these perpetrators is they really engage in this like splitting behavior, right?

Speaker 1 So it's like every doctor who won't go along with what they want to do is the enemy and they're out to get them.

Speaker 1 Every family member who doubts them is like, you're, you're, it's a very us and them dynamic. And so what they tend to do in this like doctor shopping pattern is like.

Speaker 1 what I sort of now believe is like they're looking for a mark, right? They're looking for someone who will go along with their version of reality.

Speaker 1 And then in some cases, and then of course that doctor is the hero. So it's really become like I've really seen where the healthcare system

Speaker 1 from like actually championing these perpetrators, you know, on down to just like their unwillingness to report, which is again, a behavior that I think under it makes sense out of self-interest, but is still not acceptable.

Speaker 1 So like, what do you think? in that sort of like professional context? Like, what's going on with those doctors? Why would they do that?

Speaker 2 So I think it is like a lot of these things,

Speaker 2 multi-layered, I do think.

Speaker 2 And this is not to make light of it, but it's like the Obi-Wan Kenobi defense. You know,

Speaker 2 you're our last hope.

Speaker 2 And there is this, I think, need when some people go into the helping professions, therapists too, you know, and

Speaker 2 nurses who don't, you know, they're not doing things for nefarious reasons by and large, but they they actually are often thanked even more than doctors.

Speaker 2 Thank you so much for being there and you really got this and you helped me, you know, really get a message to the doctor and you were on top of it and you can see them smiling and feeling really good about being that person.

Speaker 2 I think doctors to a certain degree, some of them, have that same need

Speaker 2 and it feels really nice. And it also feels really good

Speaker 2 if they believe the story, and it sounds like some of them do, that other people were just not as skilled as them, were just not as insightful as them, we're just not as sensitive as them, we're not willing to take the risk to do the right thing as them, whatever angle works to feed either the ego or affirming that they were the one when there was no one else, it feels so good and it can be its own dopamine hit.

Speaker 2 It can feel almost addictive and they also want to take the risk of again being their champion and fighting off everyone for them.

Speaker 2 I think there is also something that is hard to look at but we need to look at it which is there is sociopathy everywhere.

Speaker 2 And within the medical profession, you see it too. And I know there are people, I mean it,

Speaker 2 you know, I hear about people who really are these malignant narcissists, people who are sociopaths and go into the medical profession, which is chilling.

Speaker 2 And so it's a tiny percentage, luckily, but they're there. And so if you're going to be doctor shopping, you're going to find the person who does not at all seem upset by

Speaker 2 how many drugs they need to give this person. In fact, they kind of see people as guinea pigs, and they like being able to use them as a means of experimentation, which is horrific.

Speaker 2 And it reminds me of Nazism.

Speaker 2 They don't mean to go to an extreme, but they talk about the Nazi Party, you know, being able to like gas people, kill people, maim people, and then come home and hug their children.

Speaker 2 There is this disconnection. So they can still be good people in the community.

Speaker 2 They can have their name on the side of a building, of a university, and be lauded, but really not be well inside and not handle themselves in a way that's aligned with anything that we would see as conscience.

Speaker 2 So they're there too, and they're going to be loved by people who really want them to say yes to everything

Speaker 2 without any pushback.

Speaker 2 You also have people who are trying to

Speaker 2 help with their own careers. They might feel like if they're getting, there are doctors I know who I've talked to, as they get older, they feel like they're getting pushed out.

Speaker 2 And sometimes sometimes they want to make their mark before they retire. So, some of them are doing it for their own needs.
And so, it really is all over the place.

Speaker 2 And I think then you go into the net when it's found out, they realize that they've engaged in something and participated in something that went across really against the Hippocratic Oath and the do no harm.

Speaker 2 Then,

Speaker 2 some people then go into avoidance and do that whole human nature thing of la la la. And I don't actually want to look at what I was involved in.
And so I am going to go down with the ship.

Speaker 2 I'm going to still say that, you know, everything that I did was fine and legitimate and everything that the mom was concerned about was fine and legitimate because I can't afford to do anything other than that.

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Speaker 1 Something I certainly think about a lot, and I think you know a lot of our listeners are family members or, you know, otherwise sort of connected to children that may be emerging from this cult at some point or not.

Speaker 1 And it's really heartbreaking because, you know, survivors, it's, it's very tricky. Like you definitely see, and sometimes the split happens within families.

Speaker 1 But there are survivors that emerge into the world and get a little bit of distance from their parents and, you know, go off to college or

Speaker 1 get in a relationship with someone else who helps them sort of unpack it.

Speaker 1 And then they go on this whole journey of discovery and they get their medical records, and they really, it is a horrible and difficult process to like recognize that this has happened to you.

Speaker 1 And then there are survivors that just will never break free and they will go on to defend that parent and they will say, I am no, all of this was my mom would never hurt me.

Speaker 1 And you can understand like emotionally why that would be so hard. So, for those of us who are on the outside, hoping that that person emerges someday from that dynamic?

Speaker 1 What should we know about how to approach those people, how to help those people?

Speaker 1 Like, how do we help get people out of the cult?

Speaker 2 Okay, so it's a great question. And sometimes it has to do with the person, sometimes it has to do

Speaker 2 with their own psychological and physiological makeup, just to see how much they can withstand, how much they can resist the urge to still be with that person, how much they're able to hold on to the truth, and that that is going to guide them and keep them safe and keep them distant.

Speaker 2 And it's different for everyone. Also, timing plays a role in this, the age of the person, if they are in

Speaker 2 still in their lives feeling isolated and they don't have a lot of other people.

Speaker 2 And so they're going to go to the people who they know, like better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

Speaker 2 One of the things that can happen too is if you have been made to feel so vulnerable in your life, and you see this, people who are raised in cults, people who are told and taught that left to their own devices, their life is going to fall apart.

Speaker 2 They need someone to guide them, they need someone to tell them, they need someone to be the decision maker for them.

Speaker 2 So, they give that over, and that's a whole other form of gaslighting that can be very handicapping for people.

Speaker 2 If someone has gotten that message that they really are fragile people and that they are not able to function without someone at the helm and kind of taking the reins in their life, then they're going to feel more prone to staying connected.

Speaker 2 with this person who had a very strong will over them and called the shots.

Speaker 2 It's also true that there are a lot of people who, even after they've been tremendously abused, have so much compassion for the person who abused them that they may have wound up in the hospital many times.

Speaker 2 But if somebody says something negative about the person who abused them, they'll come to their defense.

Speaker 2 That has to do with that person's conscience, but I think also how much self-concept they have, like how much they feel

Speaker 2 that they have the right to be angry and to hold on to that.

Speaker 2 Because also, with a parent, if you just stay angry with them, then you're also saying, I'm willing to lose them.

Speaker 2 I'm willing to not have them in my life because if I don't love them, then I don't have them in my life.

Speaker 2 So, that means that you're also needing a child to be ready for abject loss at a young age, which they may or may not be ready for.

Speaker 2 And because who is going to fill that space?

Speaker 2 What's also true true is that sometimes the hope of a parent changing doesn't go away.

Speaker 2 And so when you see that your mother or father has engaged in something like this, you hope that once they see what they've done and it's been made clear that they're going to apologize, they're going to say something to you that helps affirm for you that they really feel bad and then you can move on and have a relationship.

Speaker 2 And I think the hope of that for a lot of people doesn't ever go away and it keeps them linked to this other person in the hope that they get it.

Speaker 2 So, there are a lot of reasons why people will stay connected. What I think helps people is when they develop a sense, I think, of real courage, it often comes from a sense of confidence.

Speaker 2 I feel able to be in the world without this person. In fact, I'm going to be more able now without this person.
This person

Speaker 2 may have loved me in her or his own way,

Speaker 2 but it was that their love turned out to be a poison to me.

Speaker 2 So I can't accept it and I can't have them in my life, but I can still maybe appreciate the time that they made me lunch and appreciate the time that they did whatever they did for me because I don't want to throw it all away.

Speaker 2 So I can hold on to parts, like people also who leave cults, like I had a whole community there, or I learned this skill, or I had a relationship with God, or whatever you felt.

Speaker 2 And I don't want to have to throw that away. And you don't.

Speaker 2 you don't have to throw it away you can hold on to those pieces while still keeping yourself distant and safe from the person and their disorder and if you can also see that you can really detest the disorder and you don't have to detest the person

Speaker 2 so that you don't have to ask of them to be these hateful people in order to

Speaker 2 in order to break free, that it can be both and that they can love this person, but really know that they need to keep themselves very far away from the disorder, but that person is wrapped up in their disorder so that they really physically.

Speaker 2 And I think just in terms of being able to be accessible, even by phone, they have to keep themselves separate,

Speaker 2 but that they don't have to be, they don't have to feel hatred for their parent, almost to give them that allowance. that they can have complicated feelings at the same time.

Speaker 2 And that would be expected. But I think surrounding that person with community, with parental figures, with family is really, really important.

Speaker 2 And yeah, giving them permission to have the gamut of feelings that might be happening simultaneously, like the anger and the guilt and at saying goodbye.

Speaker 2 etc. And the, I'm so glad I'm free, but I'm also experiencing loss at the same time.

Speaker 2 I think people don't know that they can feel all that at once and it's okay.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I love that advice. And I think it resonates for me too, because I think that's kind of the place that I've come to, right, with my sister.

Speaker 1 Like, I do have a lot of good memories with her. We had a really nice, from my perspective, we had a really nice childhood together.
You know, we were, we were close,

Speaker 1 increasingly less so as we got into our 20s. But like, I don't want to like, I think that is one of the hardest things and I, so much harder, especially for survivors, right?

Speaker 1 For like the people who are children and that's their parent.

Speaker 1 Like you don't want this new information that you have to go back and infect your entire life with that person and every single memory you have with that person.

Speaker 1 And so I do think like being able to hold both things is really helpful. And yeah, and I think like that, that is part of the reason, you know, and again, I understand

Speaker 1 why people feel the way they feel feel about these perpetrators and angry and all of that stuff.

Speaker 1 And it's certainly like the other people who've been hurt by that person and then had to watch them do this to children.

Speaker 1 There's a lot of reason to feel angry and hateful and, you know, all those things. But I think like,

Speaker 1 I do, I do think, you know, I see where it's much more helpful to just like let the person have whatever complicated feelings they have as long as they understand that they need to be safe in that relationship than like, you know, watch a a lot of survivors dealing with this of like, how do I have any relationship with this person?

Speaker 1 Like, do I, is it okay to like have some communication with them or none? Or, you know, it's really, really complicated. So I love the idea of just really like honoring that.

Speaker 1 And I think like, I don't know, too, like in terms of people who maybe have been like adults who were around

Speaker 1 and came to the realization at some point.

Speaker 1 I think it's really, I think it's really important that we make it safe for people to come forward, even if they have been in the past, not

Speaker 1 helpful to the situation.

Speaker 1 You know, like, I like, listen, the reality, this will never happen, but the reality is if like Andy, you know, my brother-in-law like called me tomorrow, I'd be grateful to him. I'd still help him.

Speaker 1 I, you know, do whatever we could.

Speaker 1 Again, not going to happen. But like, how do we make it safe for people who may have been collaborators unwittingly or like maybe long past the point when they should have known?

Speaker 1 Like, how do we make it so that they can still come forward? Because you don't want to cut that. You don't want to cut that as a strategy off.

Speaker 1 Like, coming to later is better than never coming to at all, right? Like, how do we create an environment where people feel like they can take that, take that risk?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think it's a really lovely thought that they need that.

Speaker 2 They need kind of what we kind of call a glide path, something that will make it easy for them to come back in because one of the things that sometimes keeps people aligned with the abuser

Speaker 2 is that they don't feel like they have anywhere else to go. They do have the sense that they've burned their bridges outside of this relationship.

Speaker 2 And so they might stay there for longer because of that.

Speaker 2 So if you then let them know, or the word gets out even through podcasts like this and other times that you might talk about it, that it really is never too late to be able to have insight.

Speaker 2 It's never too late to suddenly feel

Speaker 2 brave enough to really see.

Speaker 2 And it's never too late, I think, to change your mind.

Speaker 2 Because It could be that

Speaker 2 like with, you know, with your brother-in-law and anyone else involved in these situations, they weren't ready to see it. They didn't have all the information.

Speaker 2 And the reason they didn't have all the information was because they weren't willing to look at a lot of the information and really take it in and really absorb it as truth.

Speaker 2 So even if it was presented, still, it wasn't really presented to them because they deflected it. And then

Speaker 2 they can, at some point, say, now I'm willing to look as torturous as that is, but I need to do that. And I need to do that for my child.

Speaker 2 Then yeah, they can really, I think, reach out. And it would be such a shame in that moment if when they're reaching out, a family member says, too little, too late, sorry.

Speaker 2 But instead, to have them really understand that they were in a torturous situation too. they were put in a torturous situation too.

Speaker 2 And now they have to deal with the sense of responsibility and guilt of allowing things to happen to their loved one. So they have a lot of healing to do.

Speaker 2 And what they need is not anger directed at them, but they need someone to really make them feel welcome and to be patient and to get them on the road so that they can heal because they're going to need a lot of help.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I appreciate that. And I think, you know, some people may be listening and just thinking like, well, this is like,

Speaker 1 why should you ever forgive someone who did that? And like, why should you, how could you not be angry? And I think, like, it's okay to be angry, but maybe don't be angry at them.

Speaker 1 Like, go be angry on your own time. Because I think like what this all is in service of, right? Like, this is the thing that we always need to keep is like, what is best for the children?

Speaker 1 And like, it will be better for the children if their parent comes around, even if they're like of age.

Speaker 1 You know, I know for like survivors that where they're, where there was a father figure that did not behave in a protective way, that even as adults, if that father father were, which they often are not able to, if that father were able to acknowledge what happened and give them a full accounting and stop defending their mother and really like, you know, reckon with that, that that would be so much better for those children, that that could be part of their healing anytime.

Speaker 1 So it's like, yes, like personally, you can have whatever feelings you want about like that person and what they did, but I think it's like, you'll never be completely separate from your parents, right?

Speaker 1 Like you all, regardless of whether it was an abuse situation or not, like, we're all just like entwined, we're always going to like be affected by what's happening with those parents.

Speaker 1 And so, like, the more people you can sort of get onto the side of the children, the better.

Speaker 1 And I feel like that's sort of like incumbent on you, if you can, to sort of get over whatever your personal feelings are about that person, knowing that it will be better for that child if family members do come around whenever they come around.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 It's also, I think, an incredibly powerful message to send a child that someone who was so sure of something before

Speaker 2 has now changed their mind based on new information or based on just being willing to look at it.

Speaker 2 And when kids see adults actually turning around and saying,

Speaker 2 I'm so sorry, it is transformative.

Speaker 2 It is so hopeful that there are people in this world who were colluding, who were letting them be harmed,

Speaker 2 who may have even been fostering it to a certain degree in ways that they're not even aware, but just emboldening the person to feel they could get away with it because they felt supported and believed in doing it.

Speaker 2 Then

Speaker 2 they get to see their parent being willing to do something very uncomfortable for them. And that is actually very healing.

Speaker 2 because they were put through so much that was uncomfortable for themselves, for their parent.

Speaker 2 And so then

Speaker 2 it's a way, I think, to really align with the fact that they were both victimized by the same disorder. And that can be very unifying.

Speaker 2 And it's important to make that relationship happen and not make that person too scared to come forward, too scared to connect.

Speaker 2 Because, you know, why do that to them if they really are saying, oh my goodness, I

Speaker 2 now see

Speaker 2 that should be welcomed, really.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, Rachel, thank you so much for being with us. I could talk to you all day.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 yeah, can you tell everybody where they can find more Rachel in their ears,

Speaker 1 in their life? Where can folks find you?

Speaker 2 You can find more Rachel

Speaker 2 in my practice.

Speaker 2 You can go to my website, rachelbernsteintherapy.com.

Speaker 2 I'm based in Los Angeles, but I work with people all over the world. And I have support groups for people who have been involved in cults or who have been abused by their cult leader.

Speaker 2 and for families and friends also who have loved ones in cults. And I have the weekly podcast called Indoctrination and you can listen to it wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 2 And so certainly be in touch if you feel like there's a situation you need some help with or you want to figure out what's happening or how to talk to your loved one about something that you're noticing.

Speaker 2 I do a lot of talking about talking. How do we have these conversations that are difficult to have and can be really instructive.

Speaker 2 There are also some videos on my website about how to have those kinds of conversations and also how to find safe safer therapy because I'm contacted by people who got involved in therapeutic relationships that were not at all healthy and that

Speaker 2 makes me so frustrated, I can't tell you. So I thought it's my time to do some education about that.
And

Speaker 2 then on podcasts like these, and I'm so glad that you're covering this. I know it's not an easy subject at all.

Speaker 1 Well, thank you. I really appreciate your time and

Speaker 1 we'll stay in touch.

Speaker 2 Thank you. I'd love that.

Speaker 1 Nobody Should Believe Me case files is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our editor is Greta Stromquist and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett.
Administrative support from NOLA Carmouche.

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