Case Files 23: Mike Weber Retirement Special

True Story Media.

Hello, it's Andrea, and today we've got an update with a true OG friend of the show and my co-author on The Mother Next Door, Detective Mike Weber.

Mike is recently retired, so he is ready to share some thoughts about what is going on down there in Tarrant County, including an update on the political career of Mary Welch-Starver, formerly known as Mary Welch, an offender that we covered in season one and in the book.

So PSA to you if you're in that area.

Great reminder to us all to keep an eye on those local elections.

Mike is also talking to us today about our season six case, which he has a lot of thoughts on and which he has been tirelessly advocating for behind the scenes with various law enforcement contacts, which we so appreciate.

If you would like to support the show, the best way to do that is to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Patreon.

You will get two exclusive episodes a month, or three if you join our highest tier on Patreon.

You can also help us out by rating and reviewing the show on Apple and sharing on social or wherever you talk to people.

We would be especially appreciative of you sharing about our sixth season as we are really hoping to see some movement on that case.

In the meantime, Thanks for listening.

And now, here's the show.

Many of you know that I have a new book out this year called The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, which I co-authored with friend of the show, Detective Mike Weber.

Did you know that it's also an audiobook that I narrated?

All true.

You can find the Mother Next Door Ears Edition anywhere you find audiobooks.

Now, here's a sample.

Unlike with Hope, there was no carefully crafted facade of a loving mother doing her best.

Brittany's abuse was in plain sight.

observable by all who interacted with her.

But no one knew what to do.

It seemed impossible to prove that that Alyssa didn't have these medical issues.

And after all, why weren't the doctors doing something?

But even if people in Britney's life suspected she was mistreating Alyssa, they had no idea what she was truly capable of.

And the darkness in Brittany would shock them all.

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Well, hello, Mike.

How are you doing?

Hello, Andrea.

I'm doing wonderful.

I'm sitting in beautiful Granberry, Texas at my neighbor's house with, I don't know, you probably can't see it because of the light, but with a wonderful lake view because my internet is spotty down here, let's say.

Well, how is retirement?

I'm feeling a lot like Forest Gump with all the rain we've had this summer.

I mow a lot down here in Granberry.

I spend a lot of time down here.

I still have my place in Fort Worth.

But

yeah,

it's been interesting.

I think I'm doing more work for free in retirement than

I did, you know, from everything going on.

I just can't seem to get away from this.

I guess it's, yeah, it's just meant to be, I guess.

I know you don't like to talk about your work in flowery terms, Mike, but yeah, I would say you're a busy, you're a busy retired guy.

It's exactly what I expected.

And as the beneficiary of some of that free work, I appreciate you.

So, Mike, one of the things that you are doing in your retirement is being a newly published author because we had our book, The Mother Next Door, come out this February.

So, how does that feel to have a book in the world?

Your very first?

It

feels very, I guess, good.

It was kind of a rush there in February with everything we were doing.

And,

you know, things kind of

took a while to settle down.

But it was a very interesting process, obviously.

Thank God I had you, or else it never would have got off the ground for multiple reasons, which we've talked about before.

You know, I went here, I did this on this day doesn't really work in the book world.

Yeah, it's true that investigative summaries don't translate directly to narrative nonfiction.

But, you know, all of that stuff was amazing.

All of the raw material was incredible.

And it was really fun to collaborate on that book.

And yeah, and our publisher, St.

Martin's, was fantastic.

So, and we've gotten a lot of great response from the book.

Like, I think those things that trickle in, like, I know you've gotten some emails of like how that book sort of shown up in the world.

And we will get to the goings-on of one of the main characters of the book

because it is very interesting.

This is my first foray into nonfiction.

You know, the story doesn't stop when the book stops because all of those people are still out there.

But before we get to that, I wanted to just chat for a few minutes about our season six story, our Lisa McDaniel case, because while you did not appear in this season, you have been involved behind the scenes.

And this is

part of your dedicated dedicated but unpaid work, which we appreciate you so much for.

And you do know Michelle quite well.

And I wanted to ask you just sort of about that, about some of the calls that you've been making and where we go from here in terms of, you know,

from the law enforcement perspective.

Right.

Yeah.

I reached out at your suggestion or not suggestion.

You called me and was like, hey, how do we get this in front of Birmingham police?

And I reached out and talked to a homicide sergeant there several months before the podcast aired and said, hey, y'all, this, y'all have a possible uninvestigated child murder that's not your fault.

It was never reported to you as a child murder.

I'm almost sure of, and that y'all need to, you know, look at this, open an investigation into it.

Well, I think, you know, originally, Mike, when we talked about it, originally I was coming to you asking if there was any possibility, right?

Because there are certainly like some challenges with this.

But

you told me everything that you had, which was a lot.

And here's the thing: that all needs to be looked at.

I mean, you don't know if you never investigate something, right?

And there is a ton, I mean, a ton of information here that can be investigated.

I've looked at the laws in Alabama, even though Colin died in another city, a smaller city city

outside of Birmingham, you can prosecute it in the county in which any element of the offense occurred, which it's going to be,

some of those elements occurred in Birmingham, some of them occurred in, I think it's Calhoun County.

So either one of those counties can investigate that.

And I talked to that sergeant in homicide.

And interesting thing,

I know this.

because I worked at Arlington

Police Department who had the same setup where their child abuse, their crimes against children's unit, did not investigate child homicides.

And that can sometimes be a problem because child homicides are very different than adult homicides, especially one of this nature.

And,

you know, now Arlington now does it where they, as it should be done, where they send a child abuse, crimes against children detective out with the homicide detective.

So nothing is missed from either, from either angle, which is how,

in fairness, I don't know if that's how Birmingham does it or not.

But that sergeant just seemed not really interested.

I gave her your number.

I told her, I don't have all the other info, all the information this person does and can connect you with other witnesses.

And they never reached out to you.

And, you know, Birmingham's a big city.

You know, they have murders they have to deal with.

I think I looked the other day.

They had like three shooting deaths in one weekend there.

And so.

It's the typical story that we see all the time with these cases is just a lack of understanding.

And

do I really want to do all this work?

Yeah.

yeah, I mean, I think that's a fair assessment.

And I think, you know, I really appreciate you reaching out because I think there is still quite a lot of

perhaps eye rolling that can ensue when you reach out and you're like, I'm a true crime podcaster.

And they're like, oh, geez, Louise, you know.

And so obviously, I, you know, I think I'm quite a, quite, quite a legitimate true crime podcaster.

But nonetheless, you know, you always sort of, um, you always sort of run that risk.

And so I think, um, yeah, we had hoped to get them, you know, involved beforehand.

But now, you know, we are really putting a full court press on this.

And I think that, you know, one of the things I know from being in this community of true crime podcasters, a lot of what goes on in my industry is cold cases because there are a lot of them.

And I think people who have never

interacted with this system maybe just don't know how many cases go unsolved, how many murders are not cleared.

You know, the percentages are quite high.

And so being being a true crime podcaster is a strange job because you sort of end up intertwined, you can end up sort of intertwined with law enforcement in this odd way.

But we certainly hope that they will take this seriously.

And we have been sharing information with our listeners about how they can contact the public information officer to encourage them to do that because public pressure can be very effective.

And public pressure is the only thing that moves the needle on something like this.

Yeah, I've 40 years in law enforcement.

I know how agencies work and they respond to public pressure.

So please send an email, be respectful.

And, you know, I get that oftentimes a podcast can be, you know, it can be sensational, it could be whatever.

So they may just dismiss it.

It's a new form of media.

So that also comes with a lot of dismissals from, you know, older people.

They're like, what is a podcast?

But I told you.

That's the silly thing they're always talking about on.

But I also told that sergeant, look, I wrote a book book with this person i know her level of research you know she has tons of evidence that she has preserved for you guys and i told her y'all need to preserve this evidence yeah because it was before i think the uh before she erased all of her accounts yeah

they didn't do it thank god y'all did because so we still have at least what was public and we have lost some of the private messaging but there you know there is a i i'm very glad that this was not a case that i did earlier because i think all of the lessons that i learned doing the these other cases has really come into play where I'm like, I sort of know what's going to happen.

And, you know, and unfortunately, and this is something we're going to be addressing separately on the show, so I won't get into it too much here.

But

Lisa's former place of employment, the Guthy Jackson Foundation, has been

very quickly wiping any evidence of Lisa off the internet.

And so, you know, again, fortunately, we preserved all of that.

So there appear to be sort of a couple of people that would like this story to go away.

And we are hoping for the opposite for obvious reasons.

So, I wanted to also ask you about, you know, this piece of sort of the broader context of the story.

And, you know, we're really hoping that this story can get people's attention.

You know, you have said for many years that the thing that is going to take to sort of move the pendulum back in the direction of focusing on child protection rather than prioritizing parental rights and being very fixated in the media on the narrative of the suffering of parents who are separated from their children, which both you and I acknowledge that is a difficult element of these cases and something that nobody wants to see happen if it doesn't need to happen.

But right now, we are very focused on those stories, and Georgia is no exception.

Georgia has had a high-profile case that has gone through there, the Hernandez case, where there was a lot of,

you know, a lot of very negative press about the child abuse pediatrician involved, surprise, surprise.

And that has also ended in that has the result of that has also been a new law being passed and some new standards being passed, so called Ridge's Law.

So can you talk to us a little bit about that?

Because there is, things are really moving in a similar direction in Texas with these so-called sort of second opinion policies, which I think are engineered to sound very reasonable, but in fact are not quite what they seem.

Can you sort of talk us through some of that?

Well, and all of it depends on how the law is written.

Reading through the Georgia law, they seem to just let the parent pick whoever they want to to come in and do this.

And we all know that on the APSAC committee know the dangers of that because we all know the same people who come in and testify all the time that this

doesn't happen.

You know, looking at you, Dr.

Bowles.

And Dr.

Schaefer for abusive head trauma.

Yeah, it's like, I mean, it's a very, it's actually a very small,

it's a relatively small list of people and they pop up all the time.

But here's one of the things

that really bothered me about this law and is bothering me kind of about our society in general is, you know, yeah, you can have that second opinion at your own expense.

So if you have a ton of money, you can go out and pay someone to do this.

What about the poor people?

What are you doing for them?

You know, what are you doing for regular people?

Yeah.

Oh, 100%.

And, you know, actually,

it's statistically, you're way more likely to be, if not sort of like fully, like falsely accused, but you're more likely to be treated unfairly by the child protection apparatus and the legal system if you have less money.

Right.

And so those same people that might really have their children taken away in a situation where that's, you know, where that is.

not a necessary thing, or they are parents that could sort of work a program and get their kids back, those parents are the least likely to be able to go and hire a person to give them a second opinion and to, you know, testify and work for them.

Right.

You know, if you're going to do that, the state needs to pay for it, for everyone.

And they didn't do that.

And then people also need to decide within that community if that's something they want to pay for, right?

It's like that needs to go through a sort of democratic process of like, okay, so if you're saying this needs to happen, if this is so necessary to protecting parents and their rights, then we need to have that sort of enshrined in our actual legal system and process, right?

Not just this sort of thing that gives people a loophole if they have the money to do it.

Well, and yeah, that's what they did with this law, but the problem is they've only protected a very protected class with a ton of money.

Because Andrea, you know, you've done the research, you know how much experts cost.

Oh,

not cheap.

No, and that's the, that's also the motivation, right?

I mean, I think that's where, where I was like, well, why would these, why would these doctors testify in court?

And it's like, well, duh, because they're making a lot of money.

Like people absolutely underestimate what a lucrative cottage industry it is to be a child abuse denier.

That sounds like I'm hyperbolizing, but truly, like, that is the truth.

You know, you look at someone like Dr.

Eli Neuberger, who is no longer with us.

I may get the number wrong here, but it was something like $160,000 that he was paid to do a deposition in the Kowalski case.

So, not even to appear during a trial.

So, this is very lucrative work for those who are willing to do it.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And, you know,

we just see this, I think, a lot in our society is that just laws, laws tend to be made for the rich these days.

And maybe that's just been brought to my attention.

Maybe that's always been the case.

Maybe it's just been brought to my attention, you know, through

this type of abuse and seeing how this goes.

I completely agree with you.

And I think like, I'm sure on some level it has always been true.

I do think that it is that two things are happening.

It is getting markedly worse.

I think that this is just the influence of money in politics has sort of like reached this just absolute boiling point.

And then, also,

people's awareness of it is increasing, right?

Of sort of just like this sense that we all live in this deeply rigged system towards the ultra-wealthy, which has come up in this season six case, ended up sort of because of her involvement with this foundation that has that was created by billionaires and sort of watching their response.

It really has just illuminated for me or emphasized for me,

you know, the extent to which like there's the world that we're all living in, and then there's the world that the ultra-wealthy are living in.

And even like, obviously, there's a lot of like gradations between that, right?

Where you're talking about like parents that can afford to pay an Eli Newberg are not necessarily billionaires, right?

But it's like everything is so organized by class.

And I think we are in a class system that maybe is like newly illuminated to a lot of us, right?

Because America has always pretended that it doesn't have a caste system.

And now it's, I think, becoming quite obvious that we do.

And I think, you know, where it intersects with the healthcare system, I think is really fascinating, right?

Where you sort of look at

who can effectively pull this abuse off in the first place?

Who can afford to fight these battles when they end up ensnared in the child protection system?

You know, when we talk about someone like Sophie Hartman that has wealthy parents, when we talk about, or just the ability to fundraise, right?

I don't know if the Hernandez family is actually wealthy, but they were able to sort of get a lot of national media attention and they were able to, you know, fundraise.

And, you know, that's the same as like Lisa McDaniel, right?

Where she was now not for, not for legal, the legal protection, but just in order to pull off everything that she pulled off.

I mean, we are, we are only now scratching the surface of what looks like quite a truckload of financial fraud that's happened in this case.

So I think it's really like following the money is a useful thing, I think, from where I stand right now.

Yeah, absolutely.

And, you know, there should be also a fraud investigation into all of Lisa's behavior.

You know, I think the federal standard is a million dollars, so you're not going to get it across state lines.

You're not going to have the feds adopt it.

So it's going to come down to an AG's office.

But yeah, if, hey, if

you're a fraud investigator in either of those two states, reach out to Andrea or me.

Yeah, you're welcome to come be the hero of this case, please.

And, you know, but that brings up another issue on trying to get the publicity out there and kind of some of the pushback you're going to have on police agencies and more importantly, police administrations is,

you know, Guthy Jackson, they are, the Guthies are very rich, right?

So if they don't want this out there, how hard are they going to push?

How hard is UAB going to push?

Because they obviously didn't report abuse, suspected abuse when they should have.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, it's definitely a David and Goliath situation here.

And,

you know, I believe that people, the response we've had from this case right now, I believe this is something that people are really going to care about.

And, you know, you've said, again, you know, going back to what I said before, that you've said that it's going to take a high profile death for us to get movement on that.

I've said it's going to take a high-profile death of someone who is whose family is very rich and very powerful.

Right.

Unfortunately, we don't have that.

Right.

So that's one option.

Right.

Or we can.

try our best to make this death high profile because it is something that people should care about and they should care about it regardless of whether it happens to a rich family or not.

That is sort of one of these things that has come up in this case, right?

Of like, you know, it's really come down to, I think, with this question of like, even with these, you know, as we are taking a look at these rare disease foundations and these, you know, that are funded by wealthy families, there are rare disease foundations that are not funded by wealthy families.

But when you're looking at this particular sort of subset of foundations, that and like, it really becomes this thing of like, whose life matters?

And I think that is really dark, but it's something that we need to really pay attention to.

And I think most of us want to live in a society where the lives of all children are precious and we care when one of them has been harmed or especially when one of them has been killed potentially that we care about that quite a lot, regardless of how wealthy and powerful that family is.

So, you know, we'll keep on fighting the good fight.

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We've spent quite a lot of time on the show talking about what Tarrant County and what your part of Texas has done right.

We have talked a lot about, you know, Sheriff Bill Weyburn, who has been quite quite a good ally on this.

We've talked about Representative David.

Well, I don't know actually if we have talked about Representative David Cook, but you and I know about, you know, there's like, there are government officials that care, right?

There are people that care.

We've talked about wonderful Dr.

Jamie Kaufman, who's the child abuse pediatrician down there.

And we've talked obviously about your incredible work that you've done there.

But there is quite a lot of pushback in your area as well, in particular from the DA's office.

So I wondered if you could sort of talk about the shifts in the climate there and kind of what you're seeing and wanting to raise really some alarm bells about.

Yeah.

And, you know, for those who've read the book, you've heard a little bit of this.

But the confrontation with Rosanna Salinas, the chief of the criminal division of the Tarrant County DA's office,

that was in 2023, I believe May of 2023.

So Phil Sorrells took office as elected DA January 1st of 2023.

Sharon Wilson would not allow a training to be done on this for her attorneys.

So when he took off.

Sharon Wilson was the former DA.

Yeah, Sharon Wilson was the former DA.

She wouldn't allow a training to be done on these.

I have no idea why.

So when he took office,

you know, they reached out and there are people there who want to do the right thing.

And they reached out and said, hey, will you do a training?

Will you and Dr.

Kaufman do a training for our attorneys?

And this is specifically on Munch Housing by proxy abuse.

Specifically on Munch Hausen by proxy abuse.

Dr.

Kaufman did the first 30 minutes, I did the second 30 minutes.

Before that training, I knew that Rosanna Salinas,

who is the chief of the criminal division, she was hired in when Phil Sorrells was elected January 2023.

She was previously a defense attorney.

Long time ago, she had been a prosecutor.

I knew that her and Terry Moore were coming to the training.

Now, Terry Moore was hired in with Roseanna Salinas, one of her best friends.

She was hired as deputy chief of the criminal division.

Terry Moore was also the defense attorney on the Danita Tutt case.

Terry Moore would tell anyone that would listen that Denita Tutt was innocent, even after coming to the DA's office.

So the Denita Tut case is quite a fascinating case.

Can you give us just a brief description of what that case is and what went down?

I mean, very similar to the Gant case, very similar to season six.

She claimed GI issues in her child, got a feeding toothplace, said he couldn't tolerate tube feed, said he couldn't tolerate TPN, got him placed in hospice, had bought his casket, planned his funeral.

How old was the child at the time?

I think he was 11 years old, and he weighed

13 and weighed 52 pounds when he was separated,

gained half his body weight in the first month.

And thankfully for the hospice nurse who had been kind of a, I think she was a child abuse nurse before or had some connection to that.

And she suspected mom and con the con artist into going home for 36 hours and said, hey, you want something to eat?

It's like, yeah, I want burritos.

So he ate three bean burritos and had no problems.

And she called CPS and they separated right away.

And you know, Danita was convicted of

of attempted murder and injury to a child, serious bodily injury.

She only was sentenced to five years, but we'll take it.

It was obviously a compromised verdict.

The jury was out for like two days before they came back with guilty and then out another two days before they came back with the sentence.

So it was obviously what do you mean compromise by a compromised verdict?

I mean that probably there was a person or two that on the jury, you never know, but that probably.

Oh, you mean just that there was disagreement amongst the jury?

Okay, not compromised by something illegal.

Okay.

Got it.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

In the jury room.

I mean, that's, I'm guessing, but that's a pretty good guess from my experience.

So she had been convicted, but, you know, Terry Moore would still tell, even after coming to the DA's office, she still would not accept the verdict.

You know, she went on, I forget the name of the show on A ⁇ E, guilty, guilty or innocent, I think, or something like that.

And all it showed was the lead up to the trial and Danita attempting to cry and Terry Moore.

you know, saying how innocent she was.

They showed none of the evidence.

They showed none of the trial.

They interviewed none of the prosecutors.

And then at the end of the things, like, oh my God, she's guilty.

How could that happen?

You didn't show any evidence.

And that gave Denita a pretty big online following, declaring her innocent and all this stuff.

Denita Tutt is quite conventionally attractive.

Yes.

Well, because I was a little bit of a drink.

Her whole church showed up and prayed with her in the hallway.

And her father was a former DA investigator who.

completely thought his daughter could never do anything like this.

So, you know,

she had a lot of family support.

They spent a ton of money on the trial.

They have Terry Moore was a good defense attorney.

And, you know, they spent a ton of money for her to defend Danita.

But anyway, they both.

So you've got Terry Moore and Rose Ann Salinas who are sort of engaged.

They're sitting right next

to each other.

Donita Ted is innocent, camp in this, you know, yeah, just sort of on this, on the side of things.

And they come to the, they come to your training with Dr.

Kaufman.

And what I haven't said is I knew they were coming with the specific intent to discredit me and Dr.

Kaufman on this abuse.

Why would you want to discredit your child abuse pediatrician when she's going to have to testify on other cases?

Why would you do that?

You're going to hear her reference Dr.

Pirawani.

He was our former ME investigator.

I mean, two years before this, he was found to have lied under oath in a murder trial.

by a state district judge and he had to resign in disgrace.

He also believes you can't shake a baby and hurt it.

He's in that camp.

And so when she talks about her side weird tangent about shaking baby, she's getting that from Dr.

Pirawani when Roseanna Salinas talks about it.

Now, Terry Moore is sitting right next to Roseanna Salinas during this whole thing.

And

when I say that I knew they were coming there specifically for the purpose of discrediting me and Dr.

Kaufman, I have evidence that I'm never going to accuse attorney publicly of anything that I don't have evidence of.

I have absolute evidence of that.

I will keep that evidence always to myself, but I, unless

forced by a lawsuit to turn it over, but I have evidence of that conversation.

So

Terry Moore is sitting right next to her.

We'll play the question and answer period in here.

When she starts, the very first question is from Rosanna Salinas, and she asks, why I'm not charging doctors.

That was Terry Moore's closing argument in the Denita Tuck case.

It is word, almost word for word, her closing argument.

I was there for the closing argument in that case.

And even though I knew it was coming, you know, you always go back and you think about things you could have said.

And one of the things I should have said is, yeah, well, if you start charging doctors, they're not going to testify against mom.

You're going to lose any testimony against the main offender.

I did say that they're never going to report this abuse.

You know, there's a clip in there.

She's going to reference a case.

That's the Olivia Gant case in Colorado, where mom,

same thing, got the child put in hospice, cut off food and water, killed the child.

And they suspected abuse and did not report.

And she's going to talk about, you know, those doctors should be held accountable.

And I say, well, you know, that may be so in Colorado for whatever, but it just, it goes off the rails pretty quick.

I wish I could have done a little bit better job handling it.

Okay, so this clip is from a 2023 training, and we'll go ahead and play that now.

Are there any questions?

Yes ma'am.

How many times have you charged a doctor as part of the causation, especially a doctor that's repeatedly treated a child and has been unable

to

figure out that the child has nothing wrong with them and proceeded with surgeries etc etc

since you said that the medical field is vague,

so we're supposed to excuse the doctor who has the scalp is that right but they don't have any male culpability they don't have any culpability in not knowing that a child is not ill no okay so let's see what they would have to do to know that okay okay let's let's talk about that I'm talking about 20,000 pages of medical records so they would have to examine those full 20,000 pages correct they would have to do what we do correct or are they going to delay the character of the child while they do that

I'm talking about repeated not the first time they go in I'm talking about like that example with the little girl.

That was only at one place.

That child was not shopped around.

They didn't shop that kid around, but they did a lot of things to that child.

And then when the autopsy comes out, that child's normal.

Right.

Shouldn't that doctor bear some responsibility for it?

Well, the hospital did.

They got sued for 25 minutes.

Exactly.

I'm talking about criminally.

They're talking about criminal.

Because we could do that.

They're talking about that in Colorado.

We certainly could do it and probably should do it.

Actually, you shouldn't.

I think we should do.

What would happen if you cannot do this?

What would happen if you did is they wouldn't report anymore.

You would never hear about the case.

And the scary thing about what you present is also a parent who is going to become scared to take their kid to the doctor.

A parent who tells the truth has nothing to fear.

Okay.

And I'm going to tell you something.

In this county, they do in other counties because they don't have a system.

In this county, we have a system.

And let me tell you something.

I grew up in this county as a prosecutor doing child abuse cases and I would tell the detectives and my prosecutors child abuse is the easiest case to send an innocent person to prison.

Therefore we will investigate and we'll investigate fully and we don't take the word of the detective or the doctor or anybody.

We look at every single thing.

So when you present this and the way you present it, it is scary.

It is scary, scary business, what you are telling us to do in these types of cases.

And I'm not saying that this doesn't happen.

I've seen it happen.

I prosecuted a case like this and I got a life sentence on that woman.

And I do believe to this day it was Munchausen.

That was many, many years ago.

But I think

if we're not careful with how we look at these cases,

we

might

convict someone who should not be convicted.

And so we've got to take great care.

You never spoke one time about those cases that you investigated and somebody was innocent.

Excuse me for a second.

I didn't come here to be lectured.

Well, I didn't come here to believe everything that you said.

I'm not asking you to.

It's an an evidence-based diagnosis.

How many times do I have to say that?

It's evidence-based.

Let me tell you what else is offensive.

That you said there are commonalities with pedophilia.

Absolutely.

That is.

By the way, I don't only say that.

Dr.

Ayu says that.

Dr.

Feldman says that.

Pretty much every expert on this has written that.

Every one of you.

Every one of those points that you made about the commonalities with pedophilia are also commonalities and factors with family violence abusers.

Every single one of those points.

But you present it with commonalities and pedophilia so it can become a scarier topic.

You're doing what a defense attorney does.

You're picking little areas

to do to try to make it, which I get.

It's great.

It's great that you should be, you know,

everybody here needs to understand that we're going to be careful as an office.

When we get these cases, we're going to be extremely careful.

And let me tell you why.

Because I also grew up in a time where we were expected to believe that baby shaking,

baby shaking syndrome, was a thing.

And I prosecuted people.

And I stood up and I asked for people to go to prison.

And then I found out that it is not.

The way Dr.

Perwani and everybody told me, hey,

the way we presented it in court against these people was wrong.

I'll have to respectfully disagree on these events.

Well, I believe Dr.

Perwani was telling me the truth, and we do not talk about baby shaking in court anymore.

Because the terminology was inaccurate.

All right.

And I wasn't going to bring this up that I am now.

Go ahead.

Y'all had a case.

You pled him.

You let the kid in the house.

The doctor's calling me in the case.

I'm not going to accept prosecution on this.

Will you accept prosecution on these criminal cases?

Of course, we will.

Of course, I told you, I've seen it.

I prosecuted a woman.

I mean, that clip is so wild and so illustrative to the, you know, so illustrative of the pushback that is happening within these agencies and sort of the degree to which this

very anti-science, anti-data, anti-reality stance has really come into all levels of the systems that are meant to protect kids.

And Mike, I know this was also like just personally a moment for you of just kind of a like deep existential frustration.

So yeah, can you talk to us about that piece?

Yeah, I mean, there's 40 young attorneys in there.

You know, you may think, yeah, I thought it was a lot of theater from her, right?

But it's theater to her attorneys and telling her attorneys, you don't have to take these cases seriously.

Yeah.

Oh, actually, and actually, you shouldn't.

Not just you don't have to take these seriously, but like this,

you know, I think what is when you're reading behind between the lines here, it's like what she's saying is that munchausen by proxy abuse doesn't exist.

I mean, that is what they're saying.

Because if you are saying, well, okay, not overtly, but I think like, and that might just be my opinion, but I think when you are saying, when you look at something like the Denita Tuck case, where she was starving that child and planning for his death, and in fact, he did not have these gastrointestinals.

Yeah, exactly like Colin's case, you know, or so many parallels to Colin's case, so many parallels to the Olivia Gant case, except the difference is that you had that brave hospice nurse that spoke up and intervened and saved that child's life.

And when you have that clear of evidence and you have people saying, oh, well, it's the doctors making a mistake and it's this, you know, this mom, like that's just, you're, you're, you're completely

gutting the entire thing because if you're taking it away from the actual abuse perpetrator, right?

And the involvement of doctors can be complex.

And I think there are some huge problems with the hospitals, but it's not that doctors are in a conspiracy to falsely accuse parents or that doctors are intentionally torturing children for no reason.

You know, it's like...

the problem is when doctors don't report.

And we've seen, you know, looking at sort of these three cases as a triptych, it's like in the Olivia Gant case, you had like the reason those doctors were culpable is because they signed a DNR while there were active concerns that this was abuse and there was that documented disagreement and they should have reported.

And, you know, as far as what we know now with the season six case, because we had that phone call with Dr.

Ness, we know that there were suspicions.

And, you know, my jaw has never been so far on the floor as when I was listening to that call with Dr.

Ness because I just thought, oh my God, she knew.

Because I had been reading through, you know, documentation about this case for months.

I spent all this time reading through Lisa's blog and I just thought, here you have these instances of polymicrobial sepsis, which by itself is a red flag.

And you have multiple instances where the child almost dies.

She did that specific thing to a previous child.

And the Olivia Gantt case, there was also a previous arrest and jail time for child abuse, a different form of child abuse.

But nonetheless, we know this is a person who has been convicted for harming a child.

And like the fact that these just, you know, that there was no reporting.

and that they did not report the abuse when you have just these absolute red flags.

So it's sort of like that is where the doctors are culpable, right?

Where they're not reporting, where they are going against what is in front of them, where they are not upholding their federally mandated duty to report suspicion of abuse, not confirmation of abuse, not evidence of abuse, reasonable suspicion of abuse.

And what I think that Roseanne Salinas and the Terry Moores of the world, this is like the quiet part that they're not saying out loud, I think they want to discredit doctors.

I don't think they believe in a world where the state has a role in intervening in cases of suspected abuse, because there are a lot more people that feel that way than I initially realized.

And that's kind of my read on it.

Well, and knowing both their personalities, I think they don't want to ever admit they were wrong about a case,

which is freaking scary to have a prosecutor that never wants to believe they are wrong about a case.

That's how innocent people end up in prison.

You know, there's been other issues with them there there also.

And just in case people are thinking this, oh, well, it's a Republican DA, no wonder.

No, no, no.

Let me tell you something about the elected DA.

He was never there as a judge.

He's never in the office as the DA.

This video that y'all just watched, the first assistant who is Rosanna Salinas' direct supervisor and directly under the DA.

We had a meeting after the Jessica Jones case with him, and he had never even watched this, even though I had immediately after that, I texted the DA.

They had the video.

Their office had that two weeks after that, probably less than two weeks after that happened.

A year and a half later, he had not watched it.

You know, and then I'm just like, why am I just beating my head against the wall when I can go retire?

I can say things like this, which I could not say before I retired,

and get this more out in the open.

And so that's what I want to do.

But Rosanna Salinas,

that also told me that she is basically the de facto DA of Tarrant County.

And let me tell you something, she is a far left-wing liberal.

So when these people say, I'm Mr.

Trump Republican,

all it is is pitting us against each other.

And I think the sooner we realize that as a country,

you know,

we'll be a lot better off.

You know, I agree with you, Mike.

And I think, you know, what I've begun to say about this is, because people get, you know, people periodically come and yell at me for expressing my own personal political opinions, and that's fine if they want to waste their one precious life doing that.

Um, but I will say, yeah, with this issue, I mean, we've seen so much evidence of this, we've seen evidence in the media of this, right?

You see, it's not as though this is like the conspiracy theory of medical kidnapping and the

throwing doubt on

abusive head trauma.

Like that is coming full-throated from both sides.

This is not apolitical because it has to do with politics, but it is not partisan, right?

Like this is not a side where it is coming from one or the other.

Now, they have their different framing, right?

I think the focus might be different, but the message is the same.

And that is, and I agree with you that this is like, I think it's so important for us to like, and I'm not saying this as a like kumbaya, we all need to stop fighting with each other, but I think like, yeah, this, this intense sort of pitting us against each other is not helpful.

And I think it's not, it's not reality either from what I've seen.

It's like, this is not, this is not where the divides fall on this issue.

And if you find yourself, as we all do sometimes, right?

If you find yourself sort of wanting to get in there and like root for your team and say it's all the other teams' fault,

as though we are in like a, you know, a sports rivalry,

that is just not the right.

I would encourage you to take a step back and

work on also calling in your side, because whichever side you're on, they're both doing a terrible job.

So congratulations.

We have a unifying issue, I guess.

So meanwhile,

elsewhere in Texas, one of the main characters from our book, to whom the third section of our book was dedicated, the artist formerly known as Mary Welch,

has gone through a bit of a rebrand.

Speaking of politics, Mike, would you like to tell us what Mary has been up to down there in Texas?

Speaking of stuff I didn't want to be involved in that have come to me.

After the book published, it took a while, but it

made its way down to Johnson County, which is just south of Fort Worth and Dallas.

It's a little bit more rural, but it's a fairly large county.

It borders immediately to the south of Tarrant County.

And Mary is, you know, mayor pro tem of Grandview, Texas.

And right about the time the book.

What does mayor pro tem mean, by the way?

I mean, from what I've been told, you basically sit in for the mayor when they're not there.

It comes with no power, but you sit in for the mayor when they're not there.

But Mary is also the chair of the leadership committee on the National League of Cities, a small cities organization.

She apparently goes to Washington all the time to hobnob with politicians.

I'm getting a lot of people telling me stuff.

I won't be very clear.

I am not investigating Mary Welch.

That is over with.

But, you know, she got very close with State Representative Helen Kirwan down there.

I met with people down there.

Someone called me, asked me to meet with some people that needed to know some things.

I won't say who, but I did meet with them.

And I just told them, hey, she's going to be a problem.

I just know her.

I'm just telling you, you should look at this.

Here's the book.

Read it.

She's going to be a problem.

Just so you know.

I left that meeting.

I came home.

And then I got a text that night from the person who arranged that meeting and said, yeah, she just got elected to the Central Appraisal District Board of Johnson County.

And then I later got information on a recording that she claimed to be a mortgage broker and a real estate broker during her verbal application.

And she's never been either.

And then I'm like, well, hey, that's y'all's problem.

Y'all deal with it still, right?

I'm still just like, y'all deal with it.

And Mary is going by, she's going by, importantly, she's going by a different name now.

Yes, I'm sorry.

She changed her name to Mary Baker Sarver.

Baker is her maiden name.

Sarver is her married name.

I think she's been married a couple of, I don't know, a couple of years.

She's like a message.

So I think she's on this is marriage number five.

I've lost out, truly.

Yeah.

I don't know.

And so I get sent a screenshot of her posting.

on her on Facebook that she is going to lead a human trafficking initiative in Johnson County.

And I'll be damned if I can do anything to stop her from being involved in child victims of abuse, I'm going to do it.

So,

you know, I just made an Instagram post detailing, you know, with

her post and then all the posts of what she said about me in 2022, calling me a corrupt cop, just

totally lying about what happened in the investigation, saying Doug was the driver and that I'm friends with Doug and I was vindictive.

So I investigated her for,

I pinned the Medicaid charge on her out of vindictiveness.

I didn't even investigate that case.

The Texas AG's office did.

I'm not a fraud investigator.

So I did that post laying all of that out there, and that led to me having contact with people from State Representative Helen Kirwan's office.

You know, she told the district director for Helen Kirwan that she was a nurse.

She apparently bragged about being a NICU nurse on the bus trip all the way down to Austin for Helen Kirwin's swearing in.

She was very tight with Helen Kirwan and one of the people who kind of, I guess, hate to say handles, but handles Helen Kirwan, right?

There's always people in the background, but politicians, and usually money people or influence people.

And both that influence person

and her

district director read the book.

My advice to them, very frankly, was y'all need to come out and let your constituents know.

Just say, look, I've been fooled.

We're distancing ourselves.

Oh, they didn't do that.

They've taken the Guthy Jackson approach.

This never happened.

This never happened.

And what I think they're going to do is they're going to try to deny that they were ever as close to her as they were.

And, you know, why do you just, I don't understand people who just want to hide things from the people who vote for them.

I don't, I mean, it's all about keeping power, I guess.

I don't know.

It is, but I think like, I would say.

It's so much easier to tell the truth.

It's so much easier to tell the truth.

And I think people, people need to understand people who are people that are you know if you're high profile if you are um a politician if you are a wealthy person who's running a foundation if you're someone who's sort of concerned about your reputation on a public scale i would say to you look

When you're faced with one of these situations, when this information is brought to your door, number one, unless you were just willfully negligent at some point, like it's not your fault, right?

It's not necessarily your fault that you got taken in by this person.

You You know, now people should do their due diligence,

but you know, these perpetrators are very good.

I mean, with someone like Mary Welch, she doesn't have a conviction on her record.

So, even though there's,

I mean, a Google search, a Google search

for a lot of people.

That's a good point.

I recent.

Yeah.

I mean, in the case of Mary Welch, right, a Google search.

Now, she has changed her name.

She has, and I think like it is extremely,

yeah.

So, I mean, in Mary, you know, this particular situation, yes.

But I think like, don't be so afraid of looking foolish that you end up compounding the problem and making it worse for both the people who might be impacted by this person and yourself, because you will look worse if you try to cover it up.

You will look complicit and that will make it look regardless of whether or not this is just sort of a like, you know, I think a lot of times people try and distance this as just sort of a gut reaction.

And it's like, it's partly because they're doing a PR move, but actually, it's not a good PR move.

So, I, from my opinion, as a former publicist and someone who was in the public eye, like it's a much better PR move to just be like, wow, we didn't realize this.

And like, this is also like, we want people to be aware of this.

And also, you can like make yourself look a little bit heroic by being like, this is an issue that people should pay attention to.

Like, wow, we really had no idea.

And da da da, you know, and like that's a much like, and it's, it's not the choice that politicians choose a lot of times.

It's not the choice that high-profile people choose.

And I think part of it is because they assume that they can kind of put a cap on the story, which was possible.

I think some of this is old media hangover, right?

Like, I think that was possible back when we were in the media environment of 25 years ago.

It's not possible today.

It's so you have to really recognize that, like, the story can take fire all kinds of other ways and on social media and ways that you are not going to be able to control.

So, this idea that you can sort of like, if you can keep it out of the papers, you know, you can control it, I think is just of a bygone era.

So number one, I don't think it's a great PR strategy.

Also, I think, and I wonder what you think about this, Mike.

I mean, I think that there is, and I think about this just sort of on the psychological and emotional level.

I think there is such a deep discomfort.

with the idea that you have been taken in by one of these people and of just like not wanting to look at it.

Like I wonder how much of that is going on with like the Gathy Jackson Foundation of like, this is really upsetting.

It's very upsetting to think that you have let this person into your inner circle, that you believed them, that you were about, that you either handed them some power and influence or you were about to.

It's very disquieting.

And so I think maybe as much of this is just people's like, oh, I don't want to look at this.

I just want to put it in a box and just pretend it never happened and sort of carry on.

Just like a lot of the dads we deal with.

Right, right.

I mean, I think it's the same phenomenon.

I think when you are close to a person like this, and we've sort of, you know, Mike, in our various positions, we've watched a lot of people.

try and go through this.

And it sort of is this like cult thing where you're watching people sort of deal with this information.

And you sort of have people that will dig their heels and then double down for that person.

You know, you're Terry Moore's of the world, right?

Regardless of what evidence they're presented with, they're going to ride for that person, you know, till the day they die.

You have those people.

You have people who are sort of like even more actively complicit, like Carrie in season six, the father in that case, right?

Where I just, he was collaborating and really keeping the whole thing going.

And then you have, you know, people who just absolutely get on the right side of it.

You know, season five, Chalice Howard, amazing example of someone who had a tremendous amount of emotional courage to come around on their friend.

And then you have people that kind of get stuck in the middle where they're just like, I don't want to look at it.

I don't want to think about it.

I am not going to continue to defend this person.

However, I'm just going to pretend it never happened.

And I think that's a really treacherous place to be in.

So I would encourage people to

mine for their own emotional courage when faced with this difficult information because the cost of not doing so is tremendous.

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What I was going to say about Mary's behavior, that's not all she did.

I've heard from the

chairperson of the Texas Conservative Party, she told her that she's a cancer survivor.

Now, did she get cancer from 2014 to now?

I don't know.

What I can tell you is in 2014,

you know, she could provide no evidence, was extremely evasive on a recorded call.

And, you know,

she claimed then both skin and breast cancer during that time.

So, I mean,

it's just a continued con.

And

I think people need to understand them like sort of first and foremost as con artists.

Yes, absolutely.

Absolutely.

This rebranding of sort of like they have that in common with other pathological liars, right?

Like scammers, like, you know, financial scammers, people who lie about military service, you know, your Rachel Dolezals of the world who pretend to be black and the victim of hate crimes, like those kind, that, that kind of makeup.

And that's why I think they have this very sort of

extraordinary ability to remake themselves.

Because if nothing about you was real to begin with, you can just sort of like hit the reset button and be like, well, now I'm a hero for child trafficking.

It's sort of like, you know, you can remake yourself endlessly if none of it's real anyway.

They sort of have this chameleon ability.

And I think that's like, it really, like both Lisa and Mary Welch really

show how dangerous it is to let these people get off because they will just continue

to lie, scam, harm.

Extremely compulsive behavior, especially with the advanced offenders, it doesn't stop.

Yeah, especially if you're smart, you present well, you're

articulate and polished.

And like, I mean, those people can just get away with just almost anything.

If you're to the point of inducing symptoms or getting major surgeries done to your child, I don't, I think you are always going to continue that behavior.

Yeah.

You know, that's a personal opinion.

I just think it's a compulsiveness that you're not going to stop.

Well, and I think the people that we talk about on this end of the spectrum, which is really the people we talk about on the show, right?

I mean, we're not really talking about people who are on this other, you know, just doing it online, doing the sort of minor things.

I think that utter lack of empathy is also something that just will shape someone's behavior for the rest of their life.

Well, and going back to Mary for just a second, I do want to say I don't think Representative Kerwin, I don't think she knew any of this beforehand.

I also want to say, you know, when I went to Austin, you got to remember, Mary was in Austin, Mary was in the Capitol, Mary was talking to people.

I sat in Representative Lacey Hall's office and she told me point blank that they're putting innocent women in jail for this abuse in Tarrant County.

And I asked her for a name and she couldn't give me one because she's just repeating propaganda that she's heard from people.

Maybe she heard it from an offender named Mary Welch.

Yeah, I mean, people get real quiet when you ask them for examples, I've noticed.

Yeah, you know, that's kind of some of the battles you face in this.

And

I am done not talking about people who say things that are just ridiculous.

I don't have to be, I don't have to do that anymore.

Mike's unleashed.

Mike is unleashed.

I am retired.

I can say, you know, people like, oh, well, you may not get a law passed.

Well, you know what?

We ain't got a law passed the last four sessions.

They need to hear some hard talk.

And if I don't need to testify at a hearing, a committee hearing, that's fine.

We have plenty of other people that

Yeah, I really, at this point, you know, also being a person who's spent, you know, a lot of the last five years trying to get people to pay attention to this, trying to get, you know, in a different venue, but people need to understand the stakes.

And I think the reason I really hope that season six in particular makes it to as many years as possible is that I think

you know, these other cases where there have been these close calls, right?

The Mary Welch case, the Denita Tak case, the Maya Kowalski case, my sister's case, Sophie Hartman's case, where we have had so much evidence that those cases were hurtling towards death.

You had these parents driving in that direction, escalating treatments, escalating the abuse, and talking a lot about death, talking a lot about how their children was going to die, telegraphing, in my opinion, their intentions.

And yet, because of the heroic actions of doctors in those cases,

raising the alarm, those children survived.

And so in some sense, although I am obviously very glad those people did those brave things and those children survived, and I think we need to recognize who it was that intervened so those children could survive, right, rather than villainizing them.

But I think also maybe people have not understood

how real that outcome is until they're faced with it, until they're faced with an Olivia Gantt, until they're faced with a Colin McDaniel who was not saved.

Because I think people really need to understand what is at stake and that it is the life of an innocent child.

And, you know, the other side of this does not shy away from

innocent

language and from, you know, making sort of all kinds of allegations about how evil these doctors are and blah, blah, blah.

So it's like, we're telling the truth.

So I don't think there's anything to shy away from.

You know neither of us is inclined to say anything that we can't back up six ways from Sunday well and the good thing about my actions and some actions of the people and having those conversations with Kirwin and her people were that Mary Welch is no longer going to head a human trafficking task force.

The rumor was, and she had told people in Johnson County she was going to run for county commissioner.

She has not made that announcement since.

And there was, you know, she was supposed to appear with Helen Kirwan on the stage.

And I, she said, stand by for a special announcement in her little post.

And I think that was going to be, be her announcement.

And I think the handler down there,

before he read the book, hopefully it's changed things.

I'm not real sure about that guy.

I think his plan for Mary Welch was, Helen Kirwin's 77.

She's made clear she's going to run one more time and then she'll retire.

His plan was for Mary to get elected to the CAD board, serve three years on the CAD board, then then get Helen's endorsement and run for Helen's seat.

Mary has told people in Johnson County, and this is going to sound ridiculous, but look how far she's already gotten.

She has told people in Johnson County that she eventually wants to replace Ted Cruz as U.S.

Senator.

And yeah, we're not going to get legislation passed if she is in the House or

anywhere near state politics.

And I have reached out privately to high-level Republicans in that county and let them know you have the biggest fox in the hen house and she is going to cause your party huge issues in Johnson County.

You can take care of business, will they?

And one more thing about her.

There is, I do know that there was recently an election fraud report filed with the Johnson County Sheriff's Office because when she was elected in 2022, it is alleged that she didn't live in the city.

Good.

That she is

mere pro temov.

Yeah.

I don't know.

That's Johnson County's business.

Yeah, no, but they should take it seriously because also like, boy, even if it's only out of self-interest, you are giving your opponents just like a hell of a, you know,

but yeah, by the time this airs, it's going to come out that she has a primary opponent.

That's already going to happen.

Yeah.

So, I mean, I think, you know, yes, like just being realistic about people wanting to do things in their own self-interest.

But I think also like, you know, for those for those comms people out there that are thinking about how to handle such stories, we do not live in the era of catch and kill anymore.

It is not possible to do that.

So oh, oh, oh, but the Cleburne Times Review was given the book and given all of this information and they have yet to do anything.

I gave them information in 2022 when she ran for election and they didn't do anything.

So is it really dead?

Well, I will say, I mean, that strategy is not.

That strategy is not dead.

But legacy media is not what it once was.

And it is not the only option.

The reason it's slowly, it's dying a slow, painful death

is because they continue to do things the old way when there's a whole new way of going about getting things out there.

Yeah.

Yes.

So face it head on.

Be brave.

Tell the truth.

Those are my pieces of advice for all the folks down there dealing with

the apparently at this point unsinkable Mary Welch.

A week of my life.

I'll never get back, by the way.

So, Mike,

anything else to thank you so much for being with us?

It's always great to have you on the show.

Always love to hear your thoughts.

We'll have you back on again soon.

You can kind of update us on some of your other cases and where things stand and what you're up to.

But yeah, any final thoughts before we finally

retired.

I do, you know, I am doing trainings and I do charge for those trainings.

So I'm actually getting paid for some of this work.

To plug.

Hire Mike.

Yeah.

I will be in, I'm doing two trainings in September, one in South Carolina and one for the Large County Sheriff's Association here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area.

And then I'll be doing trainings in Portland, Maine in November, and then back-to-back trainings in Boise, Idaho.

And for those who read the book, I'll be co-training with Alana Mitten.

I call her the good prosecutor.

And

then I'll be flying out that night and training the next day in Rockford, Illinois.

And so I am available for training bookings, mikeweberconsulting.com, just reach out to me.

Okay, we'll include all that in the show notes.

And thank you so much for being on with us today, Mick.

Well, sure.

Thank you, Andrea.

Nobody Should Believe Meek is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop.

Our editor is Greta Stromquist, and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett.

Administrative support from NOLA Carmouche.

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