Case Files 25: Olivia Gant Part 1

True Story Media

In our last season, we shared the tragic story of Colin McDaniel, whose suspicious death at nine years old has raised urgent questions about his mother, Lisa, a convicted child abuse perpetrator who claimed that Colin perished from a vanishingly rare illness.

But as shocking as this case is, it struck me immediately upon digging into it that it had many parallels with another case, that of Olivia Gant.

This is a haunting story that's been on my radar for years.

And while we shared a few details about this case in our last season, today we're going to expand that coverage and our conversation with the lead detective in the case.

Because not only does this case provide a roadmap for a possible investigation into Lisa McDaniel, it should raise alarms about what can happen when doctors don't report suspicions of abuse.

Thanks to the momentum created by the Maya Kowalski case and a number of other similar ongoing lawsuits, along with new or proposed legislation around the country, it's getting harder than ever for doctors to report suspected child abuse.

And as we'll see in our upcoming season, the anti-science pushback around child abuse medicine isn't limited to doubts over Munchausen by proxy, but extends into other, more common forms of child abuse.

And yes, by the way, I have listened to the new series from Serial.

More on that soon.

It's really hard to hear about cases where a child dies, where there is no brave doctor who steps in to prevent the worst possible outcome.

But it's important that we bear witness to what happened to children like Colin and Olivia, that we know their names, so that we can understand the true cost of making it harder for doctors to protect children.

People believe their eyes.

That's something that is is so central to this topic because we do believe the people that we love when they're telling us something.

If we didn't, you could never make it through your day.

I'm Andrea Dunlop and this is Nobody Should Believe Me.

These are harrowing times in America, especially for our friends and neighbors in immigrant communities.

So if you're looking for resources or ways to help, we wanted to let you know about a wonderful organization that we're partnering with this month.

The National Immigrant Justice Center has worked for more than 40 years to defend the rights of immigrants.

NIJC blends direct legal services, impact litigation, and policy advocacy to fight for due process for all and to hold the U.S.

government accountable to uphold human rights.

NIJC's experienced legal staff collaborate with a broad network of volunteer lawyers to provide legal counsel to more than 11,000 people each year, including people seeking asylum, people in ICE detention, LGBTQ immigrants, victims of human trafficking, unaccompanied immigrant children, and community members who are applying for citizenship and permanent residence.

NIJC continues to fight and win federal court cases that hold the U.S.

government accountable to follow U.S.

law and the Constitution.

In recent months, NIJC's litigation has challenged ICE's unlawful practice of arresting people without warrants and has successfully blocked President Trump's proclamation to shut down access to asylum at the border.

As ICE continues to abduct people from our communities and the U.S.

government deports thousands of people without a chance to have a judge consider their cases, it is more important than ever that we come together to defend due process.

All people in the United States have rights, regardless of immigration status.

You can donate and learn more about NIJC's work by visiting immigrantjustice.org.

That's immigrantjustice.org.

You can find that link and more information at our website.

This ad was provided pro bono.

Hey, it's Andrea.

It's come to my attention that some of you have been served programmatic ads for ICE on my show.

Now, podcasters don't get a lot of control over which individual ads play and for whom on our shows, but please know that we are trying everything we can to get rid of these by tightening our filters.

And if you do continue to hear them, please do let us know.

In the meantime, I want it to be known that I do not support ICE.

I am the daughter of an immigrant.

I stand with immigrants.

Immigrants make this country great.

So here is my conversation with Detective Melissa Kalish, who recounts the investigation based on her memory of the events.

A note here that we've bleeped the names of Olivia Gant's surviving siblings to protect their privacy.

So I'm Melissa Kalish.

I was Melissa Williamson.

I was one of the lead detectives on the Kelly Turner Olivia Gant case in Colorado.

So if you could start with

just giving us an introduction to this story and how you came to be involved.

So just basic, this was like a a child homicide case.

We initially got the call.

I can't recall the date.

I don't have it, but we got it from like a Department of Human Services or DHS is what we call them in Colorado from Jefferson County, which is a neighboring county to the county I worked for in Douglas County for some possible child abuse going on with

aunt and her mother, Kelly Turner.

So they had reported that mom had taken

to the hospital about nine times in the month of September.

So now that's refreshing.

We got this in October.

So had taken her to the ER nine times in September complaining of bone pain, extreme pain, and that something else is going on.

So and then the child abuse team stepped in and they said that nothing's going on.

That's fine, but we think that this is possible child abuse going on.

So they needed to have a team look at it, DHS and law enforcement.

So at the time that this report came in kelly turner was living in jefferson county prior to that when olivia gant was alive but when she started taking to the hospital they had moved to highlands ranch which was in douglas county's jurisdiction so then we met with jeffco dhs my my sergeant who is now retired sergeant attila dennis and i met with retired or with Jefferson DHS, Jefferson County Investigations, and also our Douglas County DHS team to kind of get more information what was going on.

And then we got this information.

We ended up doing a forensic interview with mom, which led to more information.

Did another interview with grandfather who they were living with, gave us more information.

And then I remember looking at my DA and sergeant saying, this just turned into a child homicide case.

And they were like, yes, it did.

So you were brought in initially to do a child abuse investigation regarding Gant, who was Olivia Gant's older sibling.

And then it sounds like that suspicion of abuse in that case then cast Olivia Gant's death, which had previously not been investigated

as a possible homicide.

Yes.

And one of the doctors on that child abuse team with Children's Hospital had said, well, we can't really say because Olivia's not here, but looking at her records, we would probably diagnose her with child abuse as well.

So when we did the forensic interview, we kind of asked about Olivia.

Same thing when a detective interviewed mom for two hours, Olivia stuff came up and then stuff with grandpa.

We asked him about some stuff with Olivia and then it just kind of turned into like, okay, so I've got a child abuse case going with and now I've got a child homicide case going with Olivia.

So dual stuff going on, same case.

So your role at this time, you were in the Crimes Against Children unit?

Yes.

I was an SVU detective, yes.

Had you ever done a medical child abuse or men's childhood by proxy investigation before?

To this extent, no.

We would get reports of them, but a lot of them, they're really hard to,

you know, investigate or prosecute or bring to justice like this one.

It's usually, you know, we get DHS involved with us and it's, it doesn't rise to the level of abuse the ones that we got, or we couldn't prove it.

Or if we did try and file charges, the DA was like, I don't have enough, but we would let DHS handle it from there with the family check-ins.

We got to separate families.

They would take a lot of that.

If we couldn't get the criminal part of it, DHS would help us.

So So the extent of this case, no, I have never worked a case like that.

After the forensic interview with Olivia's older sibling, another detective interviewed Kelly Turner for two hours, and Melissa recounts what she saw on that tape.

And I watched that and it was just kind of

how this whole thing unfolded was, it's just a story and telling lies and telling stuff, you know, for everyone to hear and feel sorry for her.

And, you know, after two hours, Detective Allen started saying, well, we know didn't have cancer, you know, you made that up.

And she goes, you're right, I did make that up, you know, and then she goes, but I swear, hand to God, I didn't make up anything with Olivia.

So we didn't say anything about Olivia.

And so she just kind of brought it up initially.

Like, I didn't do anything.

I wasn't faking, but then it kind of evolved.

So I'm like, well, okay, let's start looking into this.

And so then grandpa came in.

We did another interview with grandpa, which set more information about Olivia and how she passed and what she was suffering with.

And this was, this is Lonnie Goutreaux.

Yes, that is.

Yep.

So what perspective did he offer?

Well, he's the grandparent, you know, so he does whatever he can.

And he was just, you know, told that she's sick, super sick, and have all this stuff and that it's a terminal disease that she was diagnosed with, Olivia was diagnosed with.

And they're originally from Texas.

All the families are originally from Texas.

So then Kelly moved her and the children up to Colorado.

And And then eventually Lonnie and Kelly's mother moved up to be closer to the grandchildren because they learned Olivia had this rare terminal disease and wasn't going to be around long.

So they wanted to be with them as much as they could.

So

just his.

So

Lonnie is Kelly's stepfather?

Yes.

Okay.

So

yeah, so once you realize, okay, now we're investigating for the abuse of

and now we've realized that sounds like like partly because Kelly sort of offered up this explanation that no one had asked her about about Olivia.

Now we need to sort of dig into this.

So where does your investigation go from there?

Well, it started going into one, looking at medical records and stuff, but during the interview with grandpa, the one thing that just stuck with me was that Olivia was so-called diagnosed with this disease.

And I haven't said it for five years, but I believe it's neurogastroencephalopathomyopathy.

So, looking into that, it's some rare genetic disease that is very rare to happen into, you know, less children less than 18-year-olds, and it happens to all children in a family.

So, start to looking at that.

So, in researching that, it shows that they're not supposed to have basically the brain and the stomach aren't talking or the and the intestines aren't talking.

So, they don't feel hunger, they don't know when to eat, you know, they're not really working.

So,

and grandpa said, like, the day before Olivia died, he, she was holding his hand and said, Papa, I'm hungry.

Can I have some food?

And of course, she was in a hospital at that point.

And so then he said the next day she passed.

So that always stuck with me.

And sorry.

Yeah,

I've talked about this case a couple of times.

And every time I get to that, that moment of Lonnie.

that he recounts.

I just, it just, I haven't said it for over five years, but, or thought about it, but it just kind of stuck with me that, you know, that she said that and that I'm like, well, this isn't, she's not supposed to.

And my DA was like, according to this disease, she's not supposed to be hungry and she's not supposed to care or want food.

So I was like, all right.

So then we started looking into Olivia and I started pulling medical records and I went and interviewed the child abuse team at Children's Hospital, you know, to kind of get their intake and their perspective of what they saw.

The stakes in this investigation couldn't have been higher because if Kelly Turner was medically abusing one child, it seemed plausible that the mysterious death of her other daughter had been by her hand.

They had to get this right.

So law enforcement set about the complicated task of unraveling the two girls' extensive medical histories.

During the time in Colorado when Olivia was alive, each of the girls was seeing a different pediatrician.

So when Kelly started bringing to Children's Hospital, the old pediatrician had retired, so they were seeing another one.

So then Kelly was going through medical history, like she had non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.

She had all these, you know, masses removed.

She had a big one removed from the back of her skull near the mastoid behind the ear.

And so this pediatrician starts looking at and says, I'm not seeing a big scar behind the ear.

She's like, I'm not seeing a port scar where chemo would go for non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.

And then was like, well, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma in my research as well is also rare in children.

They get Hodgkin's lymphoma.

Non-Hodgkins is more for adults.

The detectives tried to find records of Kelly's older daughter's treatment in Texas, but the hospital there said the girl had only ever been treated for minor ailments.

It became clear during the course of the investigation that Kelly was medically abusing her daughter, which put Olivia's death in a new light.

If Olivia had been victimized by her mother, it was too late to save her, but it wasn't too late for justice to be served and to protect the child still under Kelly Turner's roof.

So like literally that day after we decided that this is a child homicide case, I found out where Olivia was buried and we went to the cemetery, me and Sergeant Attila Dennis, and we found out that she was buried in an unmarked grave for over a year and a half.

We talked to the cemetery owner, very nice lady, said that Kelly hadn't paid her bill, you know, and that they don't give a tombstone unless the bill is paid and then they put a deposit on the tombstone.

That's usually how it is, which I totally understand.

And then we also talked to the funeral home who helped

with Olivia's final embalming and everything like that.

And she hadn't paid that bill either.

And I remember talking to the funeral director and the owner at the funeral home.

And he said, I thought this was a weird case because she didn't look like she was a sick kid.

He goes, I've seen a lot of sick kids, and she didn't look like she was a sick child to me.

We start in the background, we start pulling medical records.

I learned that there is a GoFundMe aspect, there's a Medicaid or Medicare aspect to this, which is financial.

So I asked for help because I wasn't a financial crimes detective.

So they gave me, they brought in Dan, Detective Dan Seaman.

And so he was my co-lead on this because we were working it together.

I was working the child abuse as best and he was working the financial part of it for us.

And so we start to look at that.

And then we find out that Kelly is still in Colorado.

We find some contacts that who, you know, were previous ex-girlfriend.

We get, we do an interview with her.

We do some interviews with people who had been in Kelly's life and like

from there.

And we backtracked all the way back to even when Kelly was growing up in our investigation to kind of get an understanding of how she was, how the kids were, all that stuff.

How,

so we can get a picture so we can move it forward to see how it came to be today is what we're looking at.

So, yeah, and what did you find out about Kelly Turner's past, even maybe like previous to when she had had her girls?

So

part of this investigation, we learned that they lived in Houston, Texas.

So Detective Dayton, my captain, is like, you guys are going to Texas.

And we took

DHS rep with us and he's like, you're going to Texas and you guys are going to undig everything you can undig down there.

And if I can just say this, I believe that there was a lot of divine intervention helping me with this case because things just happened and things just happened well and we were able to do what we needed to do without any struggle or anything like that.

So, we go

what you're describing is just an extraordinarily complex

case.

Everything just worked out.

Everyone we wanted to talk to just happened to be there and happened to be available, and they were talking to us.

So, the first thing we do when we land in Houston is we find this church

that Kelly went to and her family went to, and we walk in, and the pastor and four people who knew Kelly Gann and knew the girls and Olivia were in the building.

And so we explained what we were there for and they all sat down with us and we did, I think, a two or three hour interview with them.

Like they knew it was, you know, she had cancer at one point and then she had a bunch of tumors, you know, so all of this stuff that Kelly was saying, they knew this and so they would have bake sales and they would have other kind of

Trying to think bake sales something fundraising to help the family out because then when Olivia was born they said that Kelly was that she was kind of sickly, and so she needed help too.

So, they were doing whatever they could to help this family out because this mom has three children, and two of them are wrought with illness.

You know, so there's a third, there's a third child as well.

Is that child older, or yeah, she's the oldest one.

At the time I got this, I believe she was 19, and she did not have any um medical things, or she was fine.

So, then we reach out, and I find um Kelly's husband, Jeff Gant, who is the father of Olivia.

So he's down there working.

He's a, you know, a physical therapist down there and he agrees to meet with us.

And so we did a two-hour interview with him at the Harris County Sheriff's Office.

And are they still married at this point?

Yes.

Though Kelly and Jeff were still married, they'd been living in separate states for years at that point, with him in their home state of Texas and Kelly in Colorado, where she claimed she needed to be for the girls' medical care.

All this time.

And when we talked to him, he said he was one of those dads who he learns that he has two kids that are kind of, they have some illnesses and they need help.

And he's like, well, I can work.

I've got really good benefits and I can work to support my family.

My wife can take them to doctor's appointments, do what they need to do, but I can support my family how I can.

And Kelly kept him at bay at purpose, you know, like kept him, he would be home on the weekends and she would give him the information, feed him what he wanted to know.

But, you know, all the doctor's appointments and everything happened during the week when he was at work or if he had to travel to work.

So we talked to him for two hours.

And that was the hardest interview I've ever had to do because it basically

tore his reality up.

What he did.

So did he have any idea or suspicions that abuse was happening?

No.

So his understanding had been that his daughter, Olivia, had had a terminal illness and had died.

Yes.

And that

also had cancer and fought it and everything.

And I said, Well, what makes you think that?

And he said, Well, I saw that her hair was thinning.

And he said, She was taking menacin pill form and chemo.

And he's like, I could see her hair was thinning.

And I could see like she was getting skinny.

And, you know, she just didn't look like her healthy self before this.

So he was like, Now that I see that, I'm seeing signs.

But it just was the hardest thing to rip his reality into shreds.

What he knew of what was going on and that what his wife was doing to their children in reality.

And how

did he react?

I mean, did he accept

that evidence for what it was?

Or did he

defend his wife?

Or, I mean, what was his reaction?

He was completely like shocked.

And

I'm going to say traumatized.

We did traumatize him.

But as he said, he's sitting there thinking of stuff.

He's like, he's starting to see signs.

And he's like, I can't believe I didn't see this.

I can't believe, you know, kind of self-blame, like, I wish I had stepped in.

And I said, well, you didn't know anymore.

I said, Kelly is a very convincing, very manipulative person.

So you didn't know any better.

And you were doing what you could to support your family and two children that you knew.

So he was shocked.

And it took him a couple of days to, and he was like, whatever you need.

I'm here.

You know, if you need to talk to my mom, whatever.

Yes, I want to go through with this.

We are, and I told him, I said, we're looking at homicide charges against Kelly.

And he's like, okay, whatever you need from me, I'm here to help you guys.

So that was an interview.

That was another hard one.

But he, you know, he didn't defend her.

He was just in a two hours thing to know that his whole reality and that his daughter didn't have to die if she didn't need to.

You know, I mean, imagine anyone.

having that information and just kind of sitting there.

But I was with him every step of the way, you know, and I kept in contact with him and making sure he was doing okay and that he didn't need any, you know, mental health help or need to talk to someone that night as well.

And if he did, please reach out to us because we want to make sure that we are here for him as well.

So we had a really good rapport by the end of that interview with him.

And then we end up finding Kelly's father down there.

So Kelly's kind of taken between.

mom and dad and doesn't really have anyone, you know, not a lot of friends.

So we learned that Kelly worked at Kmart, you know, when she was a teenager, and that we had learned that she'd started lying, that she'd lost her job, but was still going to work, would still get dressed and go to work and get a ride, but then would go walk off after she was dropped off at the front door.

So we found out that kind of the lies and the manipulation kind of worked back

to her teenage years, to the lies and manipulation we learned in her in her present time when we were investigating her.

So yeah, his history of being deceptive and manipulating folks.

Yes.

And then her dad also told us that, so she got married.

She ended up going to

jail for some crimes prior to that.

And prior to going to jail or prison in Texas, was a baby, but Hannah was wearing leg braces.

And so he said, What were the leg braces for?

And he goes, I don't, I don't know what that is, but I don't think she needed them.

It's officially fall, and the world has officially gone completely bananas.

So I am looking for comfort and coziness wherever I can find it.

In Seattle this time of year, getting dressed is all about cozy layers.

The weather in October is like, it's warm, it's cold, it's going to rain.

Is it going to rain?

It's raining.

So I've been stocking up on comfy layers from my favorite brand, Quince.

Now, Quince is known for their sweaters, especially their Mongolian cashmere, but they have all hits, no misses when it comes to layers.

From their super soft cotton tees to their fashionable and functional outerwear.

I just ordered the responsible down puffer jacket, which comes in 13 different colors, and bonus is made ethically to ensure best practices in animal welfare, hence the responsible part.

And in fact, one of the things that I love about Quince is that they partner exclusively with top-tier ethical factories, cutting out the middleman to deliver luxury pieces at half the price of similar brands, so you can feel good about shopping with them.

And I can assure you, given that at least half of my wardrobe is now from Quince, the quality really is top tier.

This stuff is made to last.

So find your fall staples at Quince.

Go to quince.com slash believe for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.

Now available in Canada too.

That's q-u-in-ce.com slash believe to get free shipping and 365 day returns.

Quince.com slash believe.

And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show.

My daughter Fiona just turned seven this month.

It is true what they say.

It just goes by in a blink.

But she is getting to be a grown-up girl.

I am so proud of her and she is learning grown-up things and getting some big kid responsibilities.

Right now, we are earning our way to getting a pet gecko and Project Gecko, as we're calling it in my house, is being powered by our sponsor, Acorns Early.

Acorns Early is the smart debit card and money app that grows kids' money skills as they grow up.

It comes with an in-app chores tracker that helps kids connect their responsibilities with the value of a dollar.

It also lets kids set their own savings goal for a gecko or anything else they want.

And kids can spend what they earned with their very own customizable debit card, giving them that extra sense of independence.

Plus, with Acorn Early spending limits and real-time spend notifications, parents always stay in control.

So if you want a fun way to teach your kids about money and keeping small lizards alive, you should give it a try.

Ready to teach your kids the smart way to earn, save, and spend?

Get your first month on us when you head to acornsearly.com backslash nobody or download the Acorns Early app.

That's one month free when you sign up at acornsearly.com backslash nobody.

And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show.

Acorns Early Card is issued by Community Federal Savings Bank, member FDIC, pursuant to license by MasterCard International.

Free trial for new subscribers only, subscription fees starting from $5 per month unless canceled.

Terms apply at www.acorns.com backslash early terms.

We talk a lot on this show about how strong the parallels are from offender to offender, and the parallels between Kelly Turner and Lisa McDaniel are astounding.

Not least of which is that by the time Colorado law enforcement was looking into Turner for the abuse of her daughters, she'd already done jail time for a previous conviction.

So she went to prison, so her original charge was,

I believe it was sex assault on a child, and it got pled down to,

I can't remember what it was pled down to, but she violated probation.

So she didn't.

So she had a previous child abuse conviction.

Yes, yes.

Sexual assault on a child conviction.

It stemmed from a sexual assault charge, but they pled it down, I believe, was probably child abuse.

And it was on her own child?

No, no.

No.

A kid that they used to babysit.

That had been in her care.

Yes.

So, and she didn't follow probation, didn't didn't follow what she was doing, so she ended up going to prison for three years.

And this is after she already has a child at this point.

She already has her older daughter.

Okay.

Yes, with Jeff Gant.

And they weren't married at the time.

They were just kind of together.

So, and he kind of wasn't in the picture very much at the beginning, but he came around.

And so he was there when Kelly got out of prison and they ended up getting married.

It's plausible that this pattern

sounds like very plausible that this pattern started with, but was interrupted by Kelly being out of the picture for three years.

So fast forward, Jeff and Kelly get married.

They have,

I think Jeff was working a lot, you know, taken care of.

And then that's when Kelly made up that has cancer, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.

And she starts doing like a blog post.

I think it's called Pray for the Bagant Girls for that.

And so started talking about journey.

She's still up amazingly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I believe that.

Yeah.

And, you know, started talking about s journey with her cancer and that, you know, she beat it after three years.

And dad showed me a picture of saying, I beat cancer, you know, after three years, I beat cancer.

And, and so then Olivia comes into the picture and talking to family, Kelly didn't want Olivia at first.

She wasn't very happy that Olivia was, that she was pregnant with Olivia.

So that got our thoughts going like, okay, so Olivia was an unwanted pregnancy.

So that's kind of how it was able to be.

Olivia became the next target.

She was born premature and that, you know had some issues going on and that she was having some head issues so due to she had this head condition she made olivia wear a helmet you know for all this stuff and that she had a flat head back there and something was going on so mom started the whole thing with she has seizures So mom would start the blog post and then she did Facebook and then she did GoFundMe.

So we were able to take Olivia's medical records from Texas Children's Hospital where it all started.

She would say, I think she has seizures.

And of course, the doctor would say, she doesn't have seizures.

She's perfectly normal.

All of her, you know, up to a year, Olivia was great, growing great, doing everything good like children should, you know, and then having some intestinal stuff like children do, you know, normal stuff.

Olivia was on track.

She was on track for the right growth.

I think about a year and a half, maybe two, moms started saying, well, Olivia's having seizures.

Olivia's going catatonic, I think, is what I read.

But then, you know, we'd start talking to the doctor and then we'd look at the medical records and doctor's like, well, we're doing a seizure test and she's fine you know and so we would start to see patterns in the medical history and the blogs because mom would say well she's been diagnosed with seizures now and got this but the medical records show that she did not have seizure and was never diagnosed with seizures and another thing in these posts is like it's like over dramatization you know like oh my gosh she's having all this stuff it goes into what the child is experiencing, but it's like you didn't tell that to the doctor.

It's not showing what was reported to the doctor.

And so

we move along and then she started saying Olivia was having, she wasn't eating and not getting nourishment that way, if I remember correctly, because I remember going down to Texas Children's Hospital and there being an entire building dedicated to nutrition and nourishment for children, you know, and I'm like, this campus is huge.

And they have an entire building for nutrition.

There's no way they would have let Olivia, you know, go to Colorado because they couldn't handle it.

So she starts reporting, you know, these seizures that no one else is witnessing and then this gastrointestinal issues.

And so at this time they're in Texas.

And then talk us through what you know about the reasoning behind the move to Colorado.

So my guess is because she got to the point with her doctor saying Olivia's fine.

So she wasn't getting anywhere with these doctors and future procedures with Olivia.

You know, they're like, yeah, she's got some intestinal issues, but all kids do.

You know, they hold, you know, if they have to go to the bathroom or if they have to poo, you know, they hold it, and most kids do.

So it's just like, we just got to give them some stuff to move it through their intestines.

But she's like, her intestines aren't working.

So then, fast forward, she's like, oh, children's hospital in Colorado, I'm going to move the kids and I up there and start that because they can treat Olivia.

And then we started looking at the Gypsy Rose case, you know, had just come out and like,

you know, that was still still there.

So I reached out to the,

I believe it was Greenville Police Department or Sheriff's Office that investigated that case.

And her mother did the same thing.

Her mother wasn't getting the treatment she wanted.

So she found another hospital and moved her and Gypsy there to get the treatment and the attention that she wanted.

So we were like, okay, well, this kind of, it's a pattern thing, apparently.

So that's what she did.

She moved him to Colorado.

And so told dad just stay down there and work because he figured he would move up there, but he would make less money in Colorado.

So he and Kelly decided, nope, let's keep you down here.

You have really good benefits, you have really good pay, and then you can come visit when you can.

And eventually we'll move you up or we'll move you back.

And Jeff honestly thought that it was just a temporary thing.

He didn't expect them to be living up there as long as they did.

She started bringing Olivia to Children's Hospital in Colorado for eczema and skin issues and having these problems and that she's also not eating.

So when we talked to the abuse team at Colorado Children's Hospital, they said another thing was that there was a lot of disagreement with the medical team that served Olivia.

Half of them thought that there was something going on and that mom needs to be looked at or something needs to be reported.

And then half of them were like, no, mom has the child's best interest.

Let's just keep going.

You know, that kind of thing.

We have a seriously ill girl here.

This is what we're doing.

So that also stuck in the back of our mind too when we were talking to this, that that was going on.

So I'm like, well, I want to talk to these doctors.

I want to talk to these teams.

So,

and also while this is going on, we also decided to,

since Olivia was buried, is we wanted to exhume her body and have a pathologist do an autopsy because an autopsy wasn't done originally.

And so we wanted that to happen because usually in these cases, if there is a child that passed or something like that, the person is usually cremated.

So there's no evidence.

But in the scheme of things and how Kelly wanted all this attention, she had Olivia buried.

So one of the things I learned was that Olivia was buried in what's called a green burial, which was no vault lining in the ground in a pine box buried four feet instead of six feet.

So that when she started to decompose, break down, she would start to become part of the earth and go back.

And this was that kind of cemetery as people can buried under trees.

You know, you can put ashes under a tree and, you know, that kind of stuff.

So it's a pretty cool cemetery if you think about cemeteries being cool.

And it was just an interesting way.

So we learned that she had been at a green burial.

So, and also talking to

the funeral or the cemetery owner, we thought this was interesting as well.

And why I also believe that divine intervention was there was she said, usually after a year with our green burials, the coffin collapses and so then the dirt collapses so then they have to go in and refill the dirt because you get this big hole where the headstone would be or where their grave is she said in the year and a half uh we never had to do that with olivia never had to do that with olivia luckily despite the time that had passed they were able to do additional forensic testing on olivia's body

And

so we did that autopsy.

We hired a private pathologist, did it.

The doc's like, I don't, you know, we're waiting for the results, but ultimately that came.

And she's like, it says intestinal failure, but I don't see any issues.

I'm also not seeing any of these conditions that Kelly listed on her GoFundMe or blog post that Olivia suffered from.

So that was another interesting thing for us.

And then, you know, we buried her again, but we, and he kept Olivia until we were ready to rebury her.

So we paid for this.

So, and my boss, my captain, was like,

this is a case that we can't,

you need to do it.

We're doing it.

He's like, I'm going to find the money somewhere.

So just do what you need to do.

I'm signing off on it.

It took over a year for us to investigate because we also decided to grand jury, open a grand jury on this case because we knew we needed to talk to doctors.

In Colorado, I know other states, they automatically do grand juries, but in Colorado, you can choose when you want to do a grand jury and they select jury members and they serve pretty much the whole year.

So if a grand in that in that county.

So our juror members had been selected in, you know, that year and they were serving on this jury for a year if a grand case, grand jury opening.

So they decided to do this because

one,

doctors, anyone who comes in on a grand jury subpoena has to testify.

And it is only one-sided.

It is the prosecution team and the juror members having evidence, but they do have to testify.

So this is in contrast to if you're a police officer investigating something, people have a choice about whether or not to talk to you.

Usually doctors are like, well, I'm going to talk to, you have to have my lawyer present with me.

So we wanted to talk to these doctors because we wanted to find out more information and we knew we were going to hit roadblocks.

So my DAs said, well, let's do a grand jury.

And so they're, the elected DA said, yep, let's do it.

So we get it.

We start doing information.

We present the case and they're like, yep, the grand jury says, yep, we're going to accept this this case so then we go and write you know the da helps me with a legal notice to doctors saying hey we want to do interviews we would rather do them without a grand jury present we would rather schedule a time for us to come to the campus with you and talk to you about olivia's case and or we'll give you a subpoena for grand jury right now and you have to come in when we say you do and trying to be nice about it because i want to get a feel for what they thought of olivia what they their impressions of Kelly.

And, you know, they weren't suspects, but I just wanted to know, but I didn't want them to clam up and be like, oh, I can't talk to you.

And I said, do I have a list of 50 doctors and we can do it all in one or, you know, a whole week.

And I take 50 doctors off the floors and out of practice for a week for this grand jury.

Or I can come in and talk to them.

You know, you can be present.

I don't care, but we just want to come in and have a conversation.

So that's kind of how we put it to them.

And they're like, okay, you can come in and have a conversation.

We did a couple of them with grand jury that way, but they were most of them were like, okay, we'll let you come in and have a conversation.

And so we just scheduled doctor interviews, you know, with the whole team.

So along with looking at the records and the blog posts and the GoFundMe, so she posted on Facebook and GoFundMe, like Olivia was having seizures.

You know, we talked to the neuro neurologist and was like, well, I didn't see any seizures.

And I took her off this, like, and Kelly's like, well, they've increased her dosage.

And the doc's like, well, actually, I took off that medicine because I wasn't seeing any signs of it.

And then doctors are like, well,

in this country, no child is going to starve.

So he's like, we're going to give her a feeding tube.

You know, we're going to get nutrients in them and a feeding tube.

So that's how it started: they're like, we're not going to let any children starve.

And so it starts with just a feeding tube.

And she's like, well, that's not working.

So then they escalate it to, you know,

I can't remember what it is.

My guess would be NG tube through the nose first, G tube, GJ, and then the GJ, thank you, GJ tube in the abdomen, where they would feed her that way.

So, and it would the ostomy, you know, she had an ostomy, and if she had a bag, it would, you know, that kind of thing.

But so that's how they would feed her.

And she's like, this isn't working.

This isn't working.

And she's not, you know, her intestines aren't working.

And so everyone, you know, even the team is like, well, all kids, they have impact.

So it's normal.

We just got to force feed her to get those intestines waking up, and then it'll start to work because we're not seeing anything that's going on.

And then she also said Olivia was in extreme pain with everything.

So she was also, you know, getting on narcotics.

And so they're progressively doing more and more invasive surgeries with her.

Her last surgery was some, was a surgery with a bladder.

So Kelly convinced this doctor that, let's do this.

And I cannot remember that surgery's name, but let's do this surgery, which was really invasive.

I just, that was the end.

And that's when, um, you know, she's like, I don't want to do this anymore.

And so, and mom's got all this going on.

She's saying that this is, you know, she's not eating.

And so she goes on OT therapies.

She goes on physical therapy.

She has OT therapy, like eating therapy, like, let's try different foods.

Cause they weren't sure if Olivia was, she wasn't formally diagnosed with any kind of autism.

So they're like, we're not sure if she has any texture.

you know, things or food things that she doesn't like, but let's find something she does like.

And we learned that through talking to, like, she ate chips, she ate popcorn, she ate stuff like that.

That's all she wanted to eat.

And so mom was like, well, she's not getting her nutrition.

And so then they're like, okay, well, she kept saying that the JG tube was failing and not working.

It would pop out all the time, or Olivia was pulling it out.

So she wasn't getting nutrition in that way.

So they decided to put in a total parietal nutrition tube, which a line is basically, or TPN, if you've heard it.

So basically, all of the nutrients, carbs, proteins, everything like that, is so concentrated it goes through the heart so it can be distributed through her body.

So that way she's at least getting nutrients and she's not starving to death.

So until they can figure out how to get her to eat or how to get her to do these things, they put her on TPN.

And then she had that bladder surgery and that was one of the last surgeries that Olivia had had.

Like Lisa McDaniel and many of the other offenders we've covered, part of how Kelly Turner masked the abuse for so long was by doctor shopping and crossing state lines.

I just remembered is that mom took Olivia to Boston to go meet with another doctor because in following her blog posts or her GoFundMes,

she says we're going to meet with this doctor in Boston for treatment and he diagnosed her with that gastrointestinal encephalomyopathy disease.

And now she's on all these medicines and he's treating her from Boston.

But as with nearly everything else in this story, once the detective spoke to the doctor who'd treated Olivia in Boston, they realized the truth was starkly different.

I was able to contact the office and we got records and I reviewed them and basically he said, yeah, I had a consult with them and he believed that Olivia could get off the TPN and the GAG tube.

And he's like, yeah, let's get her working and let's get her feeding and eating.

That way we can wake stuff up.

But he believed he could cure with this.

So then she never saw him.

And he said, but I don't treat out of state, so you have to move to Boston.

But of course, Kelly Turner wasn't looking for a cure for her daughter.

She was looking for doctors who would do what she wanted.

And unfortunately, back in Colorado, she found some.

Banking can be so full of unnecessary headaches, and I really wish that I had known about CHIME when I was starting my business, because they do banking right by helping you save and having your back in those moments when cash flow gets tricky.

For example, you can open a checking account with no monthly fees and no maintenance fees.

You can get paid up to two days early when you set up direct deposit.

And with qualifying direct deposits, you're eligible for free overdraft up to $200 on debit card purchases and cash withdrawals.

To date, CHIME has spotted members over $30 billion.

That's billion with a B.

And because you shouldn't have to pay to get access to your own money, CHIME offers access to over 47,000 fee-free ATMs.

That's more than the top three national banks combined.

This is especially handy if you travel a lot like I do.

So work on your financial goals through QIIME today.

Open an account in two minutes at chime.com slash believe.

That's chime.com slash believe.

And remember that chopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show.

Chime feels like progress.

Chime is a financial technology company, not a bank.

Banking services and debit card provided by the Bank Corporation Bank NA or Stride Bank NA members FDIC.

Spot me eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply.

Timing depends on submission of payment file.

These apply at out of network ATMs, bank ranking, and number of ATMs, according to U.S.

News and World Report 2023.

Chime checking account required.

This world is dying.

I've done a ton of research on this and discovered you.

You know, this is crazy, right?

Focus features presents.

Begonia.

You're in an echo chamber.

I know what you are.

Elliot Felt.

This fall.

We have four days to save Earth when the clock runs out.

If you let me go, I have information you need to.

The truth will be revealed.

You're not in control anymore.

We are.

Begonia.

At R117, not admitted without a parent.

Now playing in select theaters in theaters everywhere, October 31st.

The doctor who saw Olivia in Boston believed he could help her, that she was capable of eating on her own.

But Kelly never communicated this opinion to the doctors in Colorado.

And despite a number of doctors having concerns about Olivia, Kelly continued to push the child towards the end.

So she was originally put on palliative care, which is can be home hospice, they can get better, but she kept going back to the hospital.

And so she kept saying, Kelly told the doctors that Olivia said, no more Awies.

I don't want to do this anymore, mommy.

And so she, Kelly told the doctors, I don't want to do this anymore.

I want to pull TPN.

I want to pull JG2.

And they're like, you know, if she needs us to live or she'll die.

If she doesn't have TPN, she's not going to make it much longer.

She's like, I know, but I know.

And I just want to, you know, my daughter's not, there's nothing they can do.

Because I did say that we've reached the point of what we can do because TPN is not a forever thing.

It will start to break down her body.

It will start to cause problems with her liver and it'll start to cause issues, which at the time, Olivia had no liver issues.

We talked to the liver doctor who was monitoring her because she was on TPN.

No concerns with her liver being overdone or this TPN affecting her whatsoever.

But she said, nope, I don't want my daughter to live like this.

So I'm going to withdraw all care.

So eventually the doctors pull out the TPN, pull out her JG tube, and then Kelly admits her into an adult hospice facility where she sat for days until she starved to death.

Not at home with Kelly.

She started at palliative care, which is kind of home hospice care, but then, and they said that, hey, what if we do this?

Let's go back to the drawing board.

Let's go back and say, let's try this with Olivia.

Let's try this with Olivia.

And she's like, nope, I don't want to do it.

I don't want to do any of that.

I just want to withdraw care from my daughter and bring her home, you know, and let her die in peace where there's no more owies.

So the team did try and convince mom to do this, but, and there were even some nurses who we talked to, and they wanted to report mom, but they were told they could not, you know, and they knew that Livy was on this TPN and that's not sustaining her liver, her intestines aren't working.

They're like, Livy is not going to make it long because we're not eating.

So they were just like, well, mom knows what she knows best for her kids.

So we'll let mom make this decision.

And Colorado, you can do that.

You don't have to have a team saying, no, I can't do this.

They did have risk management meetings and they're like, all right, we're going to side with mom and let mom withdraw care and pull Olivia off everything and just, you know, let nature take its course, basically.

And there was another doctor I talked to who was coming in and Olivia was in so much pain, according to Kelly, and so, you know,

drugged up and groggy.

And we can't get her to wake up and she's kind of tonic.

And he goes in and Olivia's like jumping on the bed and watching an iPad.

And he remembers saying, I remember him going, I looked at her and I said, this doesn't look like a sick child.

Like, this isn't what mom is reporting.

I'm not seeing what mom is reporting to me right now.

So just there was half the team was like, nope, let's report mom.

Let's get, let's just at least make a report and see what we can do, separation test.

And then half the team was like, no, mom's doing what's best for her child.

We're going to go with mom and we're going to let her do it.

And ultimately, that's what the risk management team meetings led to is, nope, we're going to let mom withdraw care.

We talked to a lot of nurses and they're like, we wanted to make a report.

We were told we could not.

And as mandatory reporters, they should be able to.

So that was kind of an issue we were running into too is why were they being told no?

And so, again, it's whole the legal risk management.

Yeah, because we did a separation test with and Kelly because Kelly was not allowed to live with and was fine and there was nothing going on with her but growing pains.

And she was an active kid doing, you know, Brazilian jiu-jitsu and soccer and stuff like this so you know it was just growing ignoring normal things and if she's you know getting beat up on the fields or whatever or in practice I mean that's just part of what she was active in.

Yeah.

No one doubts that separating a child from their parent can be a traumatic event.

And no child abuse professional I've ever spoken to takes this decision lightly.

But in Munchhausen by proxy cases, this intervention can be life-saving as it was for Kelly's older daughter.

And had it happened with Olivia, she'd still be here.

Kelly's children were her primary victims, but they weren't her only victims.

Because in the years leading up to her daughter's death, Kelly Turner scammed a lot of people.

Kelly was ultimately charged with fraudulent fundraising to the tune of $22,270 via GoFundMe and over half a million dollars of Medicaid fraud.

And how we found that out was, so Jeff had him on insurance.

Kelly said, hey, children's hospital will totally cover the children's expenses up here.

You just have to take them off your insurance and then everything will be taken care of by the hospital up here.

So him, he's like, okay, I'll take them off.

So then she fraudulently fills out two applications, one as a single mom.

with these kids that needs Medicare, Medicaid, or and then she's divorced, I believe, and needs Medicare, Medicaid, but doesn't have any insurance to cover her kids.

When, in fact, dad was covering them until she told him, don't, don't do that anymore.

We can get free care up here in Colorado.

The children's hospital will cover everything.

So, I think Kelly just didn't want any.

Yes, just

wanted to keep it, you know, as it was.

So, then we were looking at that.

We have theft.

And then, when I was looking at the murder charges, one of the ones in Colorado is first-degree murder is, you know, the premeditated, thought-out one.

And then it's also causing the death of any child under the age of 12.

So I charged her with two counts of first-degree murder plus the GoFundMe, the Medicaid fraud, the theft, all of those other charges.

So we put together this grand jury presentation and presented it to the grand jury to see if they would accept, give us a bill, a true bill, for a warrant for Kelly's arrest.

And we did it.

And the DA was like, okay, these, they take a while, you know, expect maybe like 30, 40 minutes deliberation, maybe.

It was less than five minutes that we had left that room and he's like, they have a true bill already.

They're like, we're ready.

So they came back with a true bill like that.

And what is, what does a true bill mean?

Meaning that they believe that there is enough to go for charges and they're going and that we can issue a warrant for her arrest under these charges.

So is that like an indictment or it's an indictment.

Okay.

Yes.

So we go forth, we find her at a hospital near children's.

and Kelly's always been tied to children's hospital for whatever reason.

She's always told everyone she's been a nurse, she's been a flight nurse, and, you know, all of these things.

So then we get to the hotel, we find out that they're still there, and supposedly she's there with a woman.

and says that it's her wife because you don't know how these things are going to go so i've got a couple tactical guys with me they make entrance dan and i go place cuffs on kelly and say you're under arrest you know these are the charges we would like to talk talk to you.

Do you want to talk to us?

And she's like, yes, absolutely.

So Sergeant Attila Dennis and I transport her to the sheriff's office.

And then Dan and I do an interview.

And she talks to us, Olivia, like, you know, all of Olivia's happenings.

And we kind of start to say, well, we found this out.

Nowhere was she ever diagnosed with this gastro.

Nowhere in her medical records was that neurogastrointestinal encephalomyopathy.

I think that's what it is.

But, and she's like, well,

she had that, that, you know, and then starts to go into this thing.

And so then I start doing the whole, all right, here's what I think happened.

I don't think you're a monster.

I don't think you really wanted to hurt your kid, but I think you felt, you know, I started the, I think this was her family.

I think she was getting the attention.

through the hospital, through the nurses, and that this kind of became her family that she never had because dad was a pastor, mom left her to go live her life.

So she was kind of left alone.

But when her kids were sick, community would rally around her.

So I think she really loved that and craved that attention.

So that's how I kind of approached her and said,

um, this is what I think is going on.

I think because you didn't want to lose that, you, you had it with Olivia and then you started again with, so you didn't want to lose that sense of belonging, that sense of family that you've had since your girls have been born, basically.

And then she was like, well, I'm going to talk to your lawyer now.

Yeah.

So then we go through, we get her arrested and formally charged, and she ended up pleading guilty to,

oh, child abuse resulting in death.

That's what she pled guilty to, and she got sentenced to 16 years.

It's hard to know what justice looks like in a case like this, because there's no bringing Olivia back.

But this investigation ensured that Kelly's living daughter was kept safe from her.

And unlike her sister, she will live to adulthood.

As far as I know, she's still in prison.

She has to do at least, at least, if I remember correct, 75%, half to 75 so that's at least eight years and i think she pled guilty in 2001 so she's got a couple more years before she can come up for parole i just hope it doesn't happen because we need to keep her in there we need to keep her in there and just so you know we ended up reburying we had a funeral service for olivia the sheriff's office did and the funeral home donated a headstone to her so she's no longer in an unmarked grave and the chaplain who because she did the you know make a wish thing, and like you were saying, the photos of you know, running.

She, I have a photo from dad where she was going to do her make-a-wish, and she's jumping up and down, and excited, and yelling, and she's got her P-bag on her backpack, and she's got her G-tube, you know, right there.

And I'm like, this is not that sick kid, you know.

And the chaplain that had worked for her, because she became a Denver cop for a day, she became a South Metro firefighter for a day, and the chaplain came up to me and he said, One of the items on Olivia's bucket list, and this gives me chills every time was that she wanted to help catch a bad guy.

So that's why I think I had divine intervention because I think I had Olivia on the other side helping me out because she wanted to catch a bad guy.

I still remember it like it happened yesterday.

Like I was able to go all that was through.

I didn't need to look at a report and you never forget a case like that.

And especially when it comes to children, I never did.

I always took pride in being an SVU detective because children need a voice.

They need someone who will stand up for them when the people who are supposed to be in their lives doing it for them won't do it.

So I would never forget a case like Olivia Gandhi.

It took me a while to, and some therapy, you know, because this whole thing was, it was a lot.

And like, there's even more I could probably go on for another hour or two talking about the details of this case, but it just was a lot.

And, you know, having to talk about it, but it still resonates because this poor child didn't need to die.

And I wish we had gotten to her sooner.

I wish that, you know, before she was put in hospice care, I wish that something had been done that we could have saved Olivia's life.

But knowing that we were able to bring charges, get the bad guy for her, and we were able to save her sister's life, that to me was a win for me in that book.

The detectives in this case deserve a lot of credit for bringing Kelly Turner to justice and ensuring her older daughter would be safe.

But this story is a horrible and entirely preventable tragedy.

And in the time since this case, it's only gotten harder to intervene in cases like Olivia's.

Doctors now have to worry about getting sued, having their reputations trashed, and being the subject of threats and harassment for upholding their duty and speaking up when they see a child being harmed.

Despite our attempts and the calls and emails of listeners from around the country and even internationally, law enforcement in Alabama is, at least as far as we know, not investigating the highly suspicious death of Colin McDaniel.

And Lisa McDaniel remains in a home with her two vulnerable grandchildren.

Because, as I've unfortunately come to learn, detectives like Melissa are all too rare.

And I truly believe like I was meant to have this case because it just kind of fell that way.

And I was been thinking, you know, I thought I'm like, well, I'm glad that, you know,

there are detectives that are like me that, you know, but there are also detectives that just do what they need to, just do the basics.

And I think Kelly would have gotten off probably with you know, a misdemeanor child abuse charge, and that would have been it.

And because they don't want to do the work, right?

They don't want to do the paperwork, they don't want to know anymore, they just want to do what's in front of them, and that's it.

And it's not a dog, I get that, you know, you sometimes you get burnt out, but this case, I was like, nope, this is something we got to run with it and go

next week on Nobody Should Believe Me.

I had to tell the wife that she's legally married to a man.

Nobody Should Believe Me is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop.

Our editor is Greta Stromquist, and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett.

Research and fact-checking by Erin Ajayi.

Administrative support from Nola Carmouche.

This episode is brought to you by LifeLock.

It's Cybersecurity Awareness Month, and Lifelock has tips to protect your identity.

Use strong passwords, set up multi-factor authentication, report phishing, and update the software on your devices.

And for comprehensive identity protection, let LifeLock alert you to suspicious uses of your personal information.

LifeLock also fixes identity theft, guaranteed or your money back.

Stay smart, safe, and protected with a 30-day free trial at lifelock.com slash podcast.

Terms apply.